# Too much protein & when to syringe-feed



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

So, this is probably going to be a lengthy post, I apologize in advance...

Short story: Lily's still not eating well at all. I'm planning to call her vet on Monday and get his opinion on whether I should bring her back in and what we might check for, or if I'm just being an overemotional, paranoid hedgie mommy and this is a natural thing or something.

In detail: Her current food is as follows - She gets 12 mealworms a night, 30 dry kibble (10 each of Solid Gold Katz'n'Flocken, Natural Balance Green Pea and Duck, and Solid Gold Just a Wee Bit), and one heaping tablespoon (it might actually be closer to two tablespoons) of wet mix. The wet mix is made up of baby food (beef, chicken, peas, apples/cherries, squash/zucchini), 4 pieces of Wellness Healthy Indulgence chicken/chicken liver meat, and 10 crushed kibble (3 each of NB and JaWB, 4 of K'n'F). For the past week or so (since I started crushing the kibble into the wet food), she's eaten anywhere from half to most of the wet food, with one or no dry kibble, and all of her mealworms. It's definitely less that what her old normal is, but I almost don't know what normal is for her now, she's been having eating problems for so long now (I think it's been nearly two months now? Maybe longer...). But I can't tell, is this a small enough amount of food that I should start trying to syringe-feed her during the day? How often should I do so, if I should?

Second question...Am I giving her too much protein? The protein percentages of the food are 34% (K'n'F), 30% (NB), and 28% (JaWB). I'm not sure what the protein percent is on the meat baby foods, but they're meat only...Though they're smaller jars than the other foods, so they don't make up a huge part of the baby food mix. The Wellness Healthy Indulgence food's percentage is 44% (dry matter calculation), but she's not getting the whole package in one day, so I'm not sure how that affects it? I had that and the meat baby foods in the whole mix partly to just encourage her to eat it at all (she'll usually eat any baby food mix I offer her as long as there's a meat in there somewhere), and also trying to keep enough fat in her diet to keep her from losing weight.

As far as that (weight) goes...She's stayed stable for the last week between 400-405 grams, but it's down from the 410-415 range that it was at in the couple weeks before then. As far as behavior, she seems to be mostly eating and sleeping. I've not found anything on her wheel in the past several days, though I think she'd been on it at least a little last Monday night (I remember having to clean it off before doing the 12 Days of Hedgiemas photoshoot). She's pottying in other areas of her cage, but her wheel's pretty much untouched.

If anyone has any advice or ideas or...pretty much anything, I'll take whatever I can get. This is already a horrible month, as it's quickly coming up on the first year anniversary of my mom's death, and I'm basically a basket of emotions right now. That's why I'm not sure I'm really thinking all that clearly and might be overreacting. My mind's going straight for the worst case scenario and I'm terrified that she's just getting older and I'm going to lose her soon. She's only 3.5 years old, but still...So many hedgies go around 4 years old. I'm supposed to be going on vacation with my family from the 26th to the 31st and I don't want to go at all because I don't want to leave her. I was holding her earlier before weighing her and she tucked her little nose between my hand and shirt and I just lost it...Kind of scared her with my sudden sniffling and funny noises too.  :lol: "Moooom, I was just trying to say hi, what are you doing?!"


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

I am sure Nancy will be along to talk with you.I know how much you love Lily and of course you are so worried as she gets older. You always take such good care of her. I can truly empathize how you feel as you approach you Mom's one year anniversary. I was about your age when I lost my Mother. It is sad and it hurts. I will of course say a prayer for little Lily's health and one for your Mom too.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Kelsey, Sadly you are likely at that phase of living with an older hedgehog. Her not eating hard kibble could be that her mouth hurts when she tries to eat it, or just that jaw has gotten weaker with age. She has had her teeth and mouth thoroughly examined (under sedation) right? I'd keep talking to her vet about her not eating the hard food. Ask him for suggestions on what to do. 

I'd always keep hard kibble in her cage if she wants it. I'd get some RC Baby Cat to offer it to her. She may like it as it is very tiny, and its high calorie so it will help her maintain weight. Otherwise, I'd keep offering her what her favorites are. You might even try to offer it twice a day to encourage her to eat more. If she will syringe feed easy for you, get some canned food and I'd even try some Carnivore Care mixed in to try to supplement some of her calories.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about how much protein she is getting right now as much as just getting calories in her. And I wouldn't try to limit her foods to low fat at the moment.

If you are concerned about leaving her, is there any way you can stay home while the rest of the family goes on vacation? That way you can stay with her and know that she's getting top quality care?


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I agree with everything Kalandra has said. Just because she is showing some aging symptoms, it doesn't mean she is nearing the end of her life. I've had many that were on a soft diet for two and more years. Often the food issues, is nothing more than weaker jaws. Syringing her would be a good idea, if for no reason other than to get her used to be syringe fed. I've had numerous who loved to be syringe fed. My elderly Lucy needs to be syringed every so often and it seems to kick start her appetite. I've also found that with syringing, often they will eat twice or more as much as if left to eat on their own. 

As they age, many do have more difficulty keeping weight on and their bodies seem to take on a different feel and look, much like elderly humans. It's a more boney, fragile feel even if they haven't actually lost any weight they do feel different. 

Baby cat in bed usually works wonders. 

If it would make you feel better, staying home with her would be good for both of you, or can you take her with you? 

Hugs


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Thank you, to both of you, and to Shetland for the comments. 

I'll be calling her vet on Monday then, to get any opinions on the whole thing from him. The last time we were in, we did sedate her and take a thorough look at her mouth, which turned up nothing suspicious other than a missing molar (that looked to have fallen out awhile ago, the gum where it'd been was nice and clean looking). 

With having trouble keeping her weight steady, I've already stopped worrying about low-fat foods, which is why the puppy one is in the mix. The Katz'n'Flocken has always been her favorite, and it's the one she'll eat a couple kibble from when she does eat dry kibble. I might try replacing the Natural Balance with another puppy food, if I can find one that's small enough, and see if she tries it. I've already tried offering her RC Babycat and she wouldn't touch it after a couple weeks, so I gave up and took the bag back to work. I already have another food on hand to give a try, but I think I'm going to take it back...We just got sample bags of that food and it's pretty big.

I'll try syringe feeding her tonight, if I can, and see how it goes. I'll ask my vet about Carnivore Care too, and see if they sell it. She definitely looks more fragile, and I'm not sure if it's the weight loss or just looking smaller...

I don't know if I can take her with me or stay home...We're flying to Florida, and I doubt I could take her on the plane. I'd rather just stay home at this point, but my dad would be REALLY mad, with the plane tickets nonrefundable (I'm sure, anyway), and it's supposed to be a special family vacation that my mom always wanted us to take. I did work out being able to keep her at Wildside though, and they'll keep her in their house so she'll stay warm enough and know how to syringe-feed and everything if it becomes necessary. They also know several amazing vets, and would be willing to take her to her regular vet, if need be. I'll probably talk to my vet about payment for necessary vet visits, just in case, if he can hold payment until I get home or something, so they don't have to pay.

Thank you guys again for your help. I'm just an emotional basketcase lately. :roll: It helps to have people understand why I'm so protective and worried about her though, not calling her "just a hedgehog" or "just an animal". Most of my friends & family don't understand why I put so much money and work into her.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

What about halo spots stew? Have you tried that one? It's a higher fat food and last I heard it's also smaller kibble sizes. Maybe see if you can get a free sample of that?


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Keep your vet updated on how she is doing. He is a good vet, and I know he can be hard to get on the phone at times due to his schedule, but he always seemed to honestly want to be kept updated and was willing to talk when I used him.

My vet couldn’t get Carnivore Care from his supplier the last time I tried to get some, they were out I guess. If Doc cannot get it, let me know. I found a place online that sells it, and you don’t need a prescription to get it, I'll dig through my email to find the vendor's name. It’s a little costly, but I used it with Poptart when she got a tumor in her throat. It was well worth the money as she took it willingly and regained lost weight. A side note though, you do have to keep it refrigerated and it doesn't last long after opening it. It was recommended to me to repackage it into smaller portions that will last a few days. Freeze those and take one out when you need it.

To tag onto Immortalia's post. I am using Halo Spots (18% fat) and Fromm Duck a la veg (20% fat) at the moment with my girls in order to maintain their high activity life styles. Both are high fat foods with smaller kibble sizes. The Fromm's kibble is a pellet shape and larger than the Halo, but even my small hedgehog can eat it. The Halo is a flat round kibble. Of the two, the girls both pick out all of the Fromm first, then eat the Halo.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks for the food suggestions! I checked out a couple puppy breeds to try at work tonight, we have some toy breed puppy foods where the kibble is very small. I can get Halo Spots food, maybe on Friday when I'm Christmas shopping. It's at the pet store farthest from my house, so it'll be a bit of a trip to go grab some. Fromm's isn't available anywhere within 25 miles of me, though, unfortunately. And thank you, Kalandra, I'll definitely let you know on the Carnivore Care. 

I think I'm going to wait to introduce any new kibbles into her mix until after my trip though...I've been trying to keep her diet the same thing for the past week, so I might continue that so that it stays stable even though she'll be in a semi-unfamiliar environment. I don't want too much stress and change at one time. I didn't get a chance to try syringe-feeding tonight, so I'm going to give that a try tomorrow evening and see how much she eats. Should I just try syringing the same baby food/wet cat food mix that she gets as her soft food at night? Or is there something that would be better to give for extra calories? Anything I could add to it to water it down a little? I think I remember seeing chicken broth (low sodium kind) and Pediasure mentioned as good things to include in a syringing formula, should I grab one of those?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Hm....Does anyone see any issues with these? - http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogfor ... Rolls.html I use them to give my dog her nightly pills, and she thinks that stuff is great. I know they're good for helping older or picky dogs eat better, if mixed in with their regular food and such. Could I try offering a small piece to Lily and see if she likes it? I get the lamb kind for my dog (she's allergic to chicken).


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Just wanted to post a little update - We tried syringe-feeding for the first time tonight and I'd call it a success! I just used her wet food mix and added in a capsule of flaxseed oil for her dry skin. The hardest part of the whole thing was getting used to the syringe, which I've never used before. It's a small animal feeding syringe I got from my work a year or two ago, in case I ever needed it. It's never been broken in before though, so it was a bit stiff to work with and get the food through at first.

As soon as I had Lily out and moved the syringe closer to her, she smelled the food and started chewing on the end of the syringe.  From then on, it was her sitting there expectantly and me poking the end of the syringe into the side of her mouth and dispensing food. Little princess just sat there and swallowed happily. :roll: :lol: I'm starting to suspect this entire thing was just a grand plan on her part to make me even more of a slave...But oh well, I'll happily comply, as always. She took about 3 cc's or so, then started turning her head away from the syringe, so I stopped. She then peed and pooped on me (and like a good little crazy hedgieparent, I immediately squished the poop to check color/consistency...Perfectly normal. I realized after I did this that I don't really remember when this reaction became the normal reaction to getting pooped on. :roll: ) and crawled out of my lap and back into her igloo. After I put that back in the cage, she came back out and ate two kibble and checked for mealworms and glared accusingly at me upon not finding any. I went to grab some for her, but she'd already stomped back to bed by the time I came back to the cage. Shame on me for not having the mealies ready!  

I'm interested to see how much she eats tonight, if this feeding session will affect anything or not. I'm going to try another syringing session in the afternoon tomorrow, since I work from 5-11 and will only get home in time to take care her before her light goes out. Oh, and I tried calling her vet today, but he wasn't in. He's in surgery all day tomorrow, and not in Wednesday, so I'm going to try getting a hold of him on Thursday to discuss everything.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Next time, dab a bit of the flax oil and rub it around the black plunger part. It'll make the movement MUCH easier. I experimented when I first got my boy and just randomly syringed him cause I have access to so many syringes :3 Plus, I wanted to make sure he'd know how when the time comes. 

Bah, yours and mine are around the same age too..... *silently freaks out* Lily's only about 6 months or so older, if I remember correctly. knock on wood, he's been pretty good. And if worse comes to worse, I'll just bring him to school!!!! :lol: The joys of going to school for vet tech.

Glad to know she's still her sassy self! Maybe her name should've been Sassy and not Lily


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks for the tip, I'll try that tomorrow! I kept squirting out a little bit of food onto a paper towel when it was sticking so I wouldn't spray her in the face suddenly. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have been impressed. :lol: 

I'd say don't worry before you have to, but...I know better than to try and tell someone not to worry. XD Glad to hear he's been doing well though, we've missed you guys around here! And it sounds like you're in the perfect major, at least! 

:lol: Probably would've been more accurate! Every time I start thinking she's as sweet as her name...She does something like that to remind me who's boss around here. :roll:


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Putting some oil on the plunger does work but ultimately they all wear out eventually. It's good to have some extras on hand. Also, experimenting with different types of syringes will give an idea what works best for each particular hedgehog.

Some of them, like Lily catch on quickly and love to be syringed. Others want no part of it and those are the ones we should syringe on occasion just so if they get sick and need to be, they know what it's about. I always say this, but rarely do I follow my own advice. :lol: Maybe if I only had a couple hedgehogs...

Lily may eat more after being syringed. Often syringing jumpstarts their appetite. Either way, with syringing, you know she at least getting that much food into her and you can adjust how often by how much she eats. I'm so happy she was such a co-operative little dear.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

You may also want to try experiment with different size syringes. Some people are more comfortable with the smaller syringes. And sometimes you find a hedgehog that has a preference too! The next time you are at the vet's office, ask for several feeding syringes. He will give them to you so that you have some back ups. You will need multiple if you are going to start syringe feeding regularly. Syringes don't last too long. I have had some that last 3 days others that made it a week. Adding oil to the plunger helps, but if they are starting to wear out, its easiest to just get a new syringe.


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks for the updates. It does seem from the past that Miss Lily does like chaos when you are preparing to leave for vacation. I just love her personality!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Ah, I forgot how quickly syringes wear out...I'll have to see how much the ones I bought are, they're probably overpriced. I might ask at Wildside where they get their feeding syringes, I'm sure they go through a ton in the spring time with baby rabbits and squirrels. And I'll check with my vet as well, thanks! Nancy, I can only imagine if you tried to regularly syringe-feed all of yours...I don't think you'd do anything else all day! :lol: 

She did eat a little more last night, she ate more or less all of the wet food mix, and a couple kibble as well.  And Shetland, I didn't even realize that, but she does. :roll: Apparently I'm just banned from vacations from now on...Good thing my plans for this next summer include friends traveling to me rather than the other way around. :lol:


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

I hope Lily keeps behaving. I know how much you worry about her!

And I know this is really late, but... I'm extremely sorry about your mom. My dad passed away in May of 2010 due to some awful circumstances and I know how hard it is during birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries of the awful day. I actually used some of the money my family received after his death to get Milly. I figured, "Hey! The last year has been so hard on me, I might as well splurge on something that will make me happy every day."

If you ever need to talk, I'm here. I was fortunate enough to have a friend who went through a similar situation and was able to drag me through my depression by my ears, but not everyone does & I can't imagine how hard that would be.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks Hanhan! I haven't had a chance to syringe-feed her again yet, but it seems like even once helped boost her appetite for a couple days - she's been finishing all of the wet food, and sometimes grabbing a couple kibble as well. Gonna syringe again tomorrow and see how she does through the weekend. Her weight has also gone up a few grams...Which I know doesn't mean much given how much it can fluctuate in a day, but at least it's going the right direction now!

And thank you. I'm sorry about your dad as well, it's definitely really hard...That's why I'm hoping Lily has awhile longer left in her. The past two years have just been one death after another and I just wish it'd all stop. >< She's one of the things that helps keep me going - they're just such a comfort, even when they're doing nothing more than sleeping on you.  I do have a friend who went through this as well, actually...2010 started with her losing her mother and ended with me losing mine. Not a good year for my group of friends. :? Thank you for the offer as well, I'll definitely remember that. My family's been fortunate that our extended family is all pretty close (my mom's sister and my dad's two sisters have been a lot of help for me, especially), and we have a lot of family friends that have helped too. I'm especially glad that my dad has a handful of good buddies that have been really good about taking him out for dinner and hanging out with him. He won't talk to us about how hard it is for him, not wanting to burden or worry us, so of course we just worry more! But he does have them, at least.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Haven't had to syringe Lily again yet, as she's been eating well on her own.  Unfortunately, I've been so busy that I keep forgetting to call the vet and update him on how she's doing...It's going on the list for first thing on Monday morning, along with calling my dog's vet to get her meds refilled. Had a couple more questions tonight - 

For crushing kibble, does anyone have any suggestions for easy ways to do this? I've been using a knife handle to crush them on a paper plate, but this takes a little while, and I didn't know if there was an easier way. I think I'm going to pre-crush the kibble for each day that she's going to be at Wildside, and keep it all in a one-week pill container, so that she's getting the same amount each night. They'll probably think I'm crazy, but...well, I am, so at least the title is earned? :lol: 

Also, she's not been running on her wheel much at all. I think she had one night of activity this week (I think night before last), but other than that, it's been at least a week since I've seen signs of activity (pee & poop). I might have to get a bike odometer for her for Christmas...Keeping a closer eye on her running might be a good idea these days. Should the lack of running be a major cause for concern? I definitely plan on mentioning it to her vet, but could this be a very bad thing, or maybe just another sign of old age? I've been putting feline Cosequin on her food for a few months, but I probably should've started it sooner than I did...I don't know how much help it's really doing now. I still have some of the anti-inflammatory meds the vet gave me after we looked at her mouth, but I don't want to start giving them to her again without asking first. But it'd be interesting to see if she started running again or eating hard food after starting her on it again. Is there anything you can do for arthritis pain, if that's what her problem is? Just anti-inflammatory meds, or are those not a good idea for long-term? (Sorry, I should probably be asking the vet all of this. :lol: Just figured I'd put it down here, too!)


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

For crushing, all I did was use a ceramic bowl and a hammer to press down and grind. 
But for something a bit more aesthetically pleasing, a small mortar and pestle would probably work just as well, probably better. Or...you can get a small coffee bean grinder. Electronic and fast. 

And you're not crazy, just dedicated 
you should see all the Tupperware I have for when I leave my boy with my mom for a week lol


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

I wish every pet owner was as "crazy" as you. I am so glad our little prissy (ha ha) is eating. I do love Miss Lily!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I'll have to check out the kitchen section of Meijer and see if there's anything like a mortar and pestle that would work for easy kibble grinding. I'm going out Christmas shopping this week sometime (yeah, I haven't even _started_ yet :roll: ), so I can look around other places too. I think I know what Lily's getting for Christmas this year...a kibble-grinding device and a bike pedometer. And probably more syringes, either from my vet's or someplace, not sure yet.

Lily's still eating well, which I'm pretty happy about. Since she's been eating all of the wet food, I'm thinking about upping the amount, to make sure she's getting enough to eat. Her weight's still going up, she's around 411-413 grams now. 

Also, we got some new plans figured out for her stay at Wildside - we were talking about where in the house she'd be staying and I was concerned about making sure she'll stay warm enough. Louise, the woman who'll be taking care of her, suggested that we maybe keep her in one of the incubators they use for baby squirrels/bunnies/etc. They're a bit smaller than her travel cage, but I think it should still fit her wheel, igloo, and food bowls. I'm considering taking her travel cage with me when I go to drop her off, just in case it's too cramped or something. We figured it's best to have her a bit cramped, but no concerns about heat than have her in her travel cage and take a risk of hibernation attempts. My main concerns with the whole thing is that there's a lot of kittens in the room (they can't get into the incubator, but their movement might bug her at night) and the incubator floor has little openings around the edge for heat/ventilation. I didn't know if she'd get her foot/leg stuck in there, but Louise said she's never had a baby mammal ever get a foot or anything stuck in them before. So I'm not sure if this is just me being overly paranoid again. I do like the idea of not having to worry about heat, since that's such a big issue with her. I did decide to stick information about hibernation attempts and how to get through them in her care sheet, though, just in case. I'm just being a huge worry wart...they're going to be so sick of me by the time I get home and pick her up. :lol:


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I must have missed this thread. I'm glad Lily's doing better. 
When Zoey was sick, I even put mealies & wax worms in the mortal & pestel. Bleh.
I love the idea of the spice/coffee grinder. 

I hope everything goes smoothing while you're gone.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks PJ!  And ewwww, smushed mealies. :lol: I'm glad Lily's still scarfing down her mealies, I don't think I want to try that...


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

If you're having trouble finding syringes, see if there are any horsey type place, tack store, feed/co-op store. They usually have boxes of syringes in various sizes. A lot of horse/livestock owners tend to their own animals for minor things that we have a lot of stuff like syringes in stock at all times. 

Glad to hear she's still eating well!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks Immortalia! I forgot to ask the vet when I talked to him today if I could get some extra syringes from them. I think I'm going to ask Louise at Wildside where they get theirs though, and maybe I can order a stockpile of good ones for syringe-feeding. Otherwise I'll keep looking around here to see if I can find someplace like that.

Also, in speaking with the vet, I'm reminded how much I really do like him!  He said that it sounded like I was doing all the right things and it was great she was still eating. He did mention canned A/D in case she starts having problems eating again, but if she was doing fine right now that it wasn't necessary. They also have Carnivore Care, in case I have to start syringe-feeding her more often, but for now we're going to keep with what I'm already doing. He told me to call back before I leave, if I can, and let him know what her weight is then, and agreed that it's probably better to have her on the plumper side, with how quickly she could lose it if she stops eating again. I also let him know we were going to be gone and told him that if Wildside needs to, they'll be calling/bringing her in. He assured me that if that does happen, he'll make sure he calls me too, to let me know what's going on and double-check anything with me. They would also be able to hold payment until I get home so that Wildside doesn't have to pay for anything.  I'm feeling a LOT better overall about leaving her now, I'm so relieved.

I also got Lily's first Christmas present today - a marble mortar/pestle and I LOVE it. I tried it out on a piece of my dog's kibble and it works so well. Granted the present was more for me than her, but hey, if I'm going to be crushing kibble every night for the forseeable future, I want it to be easy. :lol: Now I just have to find a bike pedometer so I can hook her wheel up and start knowing for sure whether she's running on her wheel or not.


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