# High quality cat food hurts liver/kidneys?



## MochiAndMe (Jul 13, 2013)

I was just texting my breeder with update on my girl and mentioned she's too skinny and that I'm mixing in higher fat foods.

My breeder then said that I should only be adding Purina Kitten or Purina One Kitten because higher quality cat foods will hurt her liver or kidneys...

But after looking up both of those products, they contain corn products, by product, too much protein, and the Purina Kitten doesn't have enough fat for my girl.

I'm a little confused now. I'm assuming that she meant high protein amounts can harm her, since just about everyone here recommends high quality cat food.


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## Sonics1AndOnlyGirl (May 25, 2013)

I have never heard of high quality cat food causing that. High protein can cause liver/kidney problems. I think the breeder did make a mistake.


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## MochiAndMe (Jul 13, 2013)

Me neither, which is why I was confused haha.

I was having a hard time responding. I didn't want to tell her she's wrong, but I didn't want to straight out lie and say I'd get some of that food. So I went with: "okay, thanks!" Not really saying that I'd go buy that food...


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## Tom (Jul 21, 2013)

Your breeder seems like she doesn't know what she's talking about.. those foods are terrible.


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## MochiAndMe (Jul 13, 2013)

Yeah, that worries me. (now I know what's in the mix she sold us.)

However, food seems to be the only thing she lacks knowledge of. She told us everything else, what type of wheel and where, heating lamps, cages, etc.


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## MochiAndMe (Jul 13, 2013)

Although I like how Purina words and describes the ingredients in the Kitten food.

"We use the finest ingredients and a selective blend of protein, carbs, and fat in every bag of Purina® Cat Chow®. Here are some of the ingredients in our Kitten Chow formula:
Poultry by-product meal
An excellent protein source created after poultry is processed for human consumption. A second process removes excess fat, leaving a nutrient-rich protein source. After that, we add it to kibble, where it helps provide the amino acids and protein that are good for cats of all ages.
Corn gluten meal
Gluten is the protein part of any whole grain—in this case, it's from the whole corn kernel. Corn gluten meal comes from the production of vegetable oil and is an excellent source of protein."


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## Tom (Jul 21, 2013)

MochiAndMe said:


> Although I like how Purina words and describes the ingredients in the Kitten food.
> 
> "We use the finest ingredients and a selective blend of protein, carbs, and fat in every bag of Purina® Cat Chow®. Here are some of the ingredients in our Kitten Chow formula:
> Poultry by-product meal
> ...


I like how they don't use a specific protein ... not


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

They're right that corn is high in protein but unfortunately it can't be digested so it doesn't do any good.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

It's also a conveniently cheap way to raise protein levels rather than expensive meats. And while by-product can include organs (which are good & have important nutrients not found in muscle meat), it can also include all kinds of other nasty things, especially with the protein not specifically named. :roll:

Not sure what the breeder's talking about, but I feel like she's been scared off because of some higher quality foods having high protein levels (since that's what _cats_ need). Doesn't make sense to me otherwise... The only food that I've ever heard of causing problems is Wellness, and we're still not sure what specifically about Wellness causes the stomach upset - consensus is it's "too rich", but that doesn't always make sense to me, since if you look at something like Blue Buffalo...many of the ingredients are similar or the same. http://bluebuffalo.com/cat-food/bc-weight-control-chicken?pf=1&type=dry&animal=cat and http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/product-details.aspx?pet=cat&pid=21#ingredients both include chicken, and chicken meal for the first two ingredients, and the rest seem similar to me, or they're similar to ingredients of other brands. So it's just weird.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm SO glad you asked this question. I found quite a few breeders who have this opinion and I won't lie, it did scare me a little as I have always fed the highest quality foods and lost my last girl to "unknown" kidney problems...
I'm going to try to find the article about it that a lot of the breeders who have this opinion refer to.
Here it is:
http://www.hedgehogworld.com/content.php?187-What-Should-I-Feed-My-Hedgehog
Would LOVE to hear what the experienced breeders/rescuers have to say about this


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

All I can think is that if people were having negative effects it was due to unlimited Protein levels? Taking an extreme after another extreme didn't work because they fed foods with protein levels much higher than is recommended for a hedgehog? Could that be it?


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## toddo35 (Aug 20, 2013)

My breeder has this same view, and I'm really confused, because I'm being told so many different things. People on here have told me that the food I got from my breeder is terrible and shouldn't be fed, but my breeder has been breeding for a long time, and explained to me that since hedgehogs aren't carnivores (unlike cats) they can't digest the very high quality meaty protein sources in high quality cat foods (causing liver problems). So how am I supposed to know who to listen to?
Both opinions have logical reasoning, and there is no definitive answer from lots of research like with many other pets.
I'd really appreciate more help than "that food is terrible, your breeder is wrong" because everything else I've learned from my breeder has been accurate and helpful.

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## MochiAndMe (Jul 13, 2013)

Toddo, if that picture of the baby is your hedgie, then we have the same breeder.


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## toddo35 (Aug 20, 2013)

Yes, that's my little Harold (just picked him up today, finally)!

I just wish that both sides of the debate weren't so sure the other side is so wrong. I feel like it's impossible to choose, because I know I shouldn't trust everything I read online, and (no offense, only because I'm still new here) I really don't know anyone on these forums or they're experiences, but also, I really don't know my breeder, and because these forums have been pretty closed on the issue of breeder reviewing (or breeder bashing, as it's been called) I feel like I have no way of knowing who I should actually listen to.

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## unforgiven (Apr 26, 2013)

Well, my breeder told me the same thing as far as what to feed. Purina Kitten chow and then switch over the Adult formula. After joining the board I was told here that Purina Kitten Chow was a terrible food so I switched her over to a mix of two high quality cat foods.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

There seems to be a lot of people on both sides of the debate, and with little actual research done, it's mostly a matter of how each person feels.

Personally, my problem with the lower-end foods is the quality of the ingredients - for most animals, corn doesn't have nutrition, which could serve the purpose of being roughage in the hedgehog's diet, like the breeders you guys have keep saying. That I can understand...my concern is that foods that use corn often have ingredients like "Poultry by-product" or "animal fat". They don't seem harmful, but their wording is so vague that you don't know what the source actually is - it's not required by the AAFCO definition that the animals providing that ingredient be specifically slaughtered for food. It can be dead, dying, or diseased animals that could have medications (specifically ones for euthanasia), parasites, etc. in them. Those could be rendered harmless by the process of making them into food...but that still troubles me. (This part is added in after edit) Yes, I know hedgehogs tend to eat from dead carcasses, etc. in the wild, but wild hedgehogs also only live 2-3 years at most. Considering we want our pets to live to the 4-6 year average, it seems reasonable to be more aware and picky about the safety & quality of the food they are getting, and to at least avoid ingredients that could have questionable origins like these.

A couple of things that could be compromises between both sides of the issue - either feeding better quality foods, while supplementing every night with veggies to add more roughage/fiber into the diet (which only works if hedgie is willing to eat them). Or feeding a middle-line quality food, something that may have some corn in the ingredients, but has named meats, fats, and/or by-products, as well as no food dyes (allergies), and no BHA, BHT, or Ethoxyquin (all linked to causing cancer) - something like Pro Plan, maybe. Another personal opinion - Science Diet and Royal Canin are a bit overrated. Their price is as expensive as a food using higher quality ingredients, which I find unnecessary.

Overall, it comes down to personal opinion, like any diet for any pet. We do encourage high quality food mixes on the forum here - and personally, to my memory in the 4 years I've been on here, I have not seen any posts or reports of hedgehogs having liver or kidney problems linked by a vet to a food mix that keeps the protein down between 30-35%. However for personal actual experience, I've only had one hedgehog, and haven't bred or owned multiple hedgehogs over a number of years like some breeders (or rescuers) have. I would guess the person that's most active on the forum that has owned hedgehogs the longest is Nancy. So her opinion & observations may be worth more on this subject than mine, for that reason alone.


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

1. A lot of vets recommend against very much in the way of hard cat kibbles. They are considered as possibly quite hard on kidneys. My vet feels this way and suggested removing kibble altogether.

2. Kidney issues are a top cause of hedgehog deaths; up there with cancers and obesity.

....................................................

3. Sophie began presenting blood in her urine. The amount increased. Then, the amount of fresh blood increased. Vet time. X-rays ruled out kidney stone, bladder stones, tumor. Additional tests ruled out UTI as well as several other possible issues.

4. Cause was believed to possibly be interstitial cystitis. Possible treatment; spaying. Ultrasound recommended for more detailed tests and results.

5. $1,000 in - and with spaying and related to be another $1,000 - and with ultrasound and related another $1,000 again.

6. I was kind of on my own at that point unless giving the vets (a specialist also) a blank check. Due to costs and the not-great-likelihood of success, I decided against proceeding further and readied to put her down myself if she began to show signs of suffering.

6. Not too long after this I added a canned food as part of a diet adjustment because she was starting to gain weight. There followed a significant drop in kibble consumption (which I was wanting). Shortly thereafter, there was a drop in the amount of blood in her urine. Hmm. (NOTE: At no point were discussions of kibble, kidney issues, and Sophie's issues connected and at the forefront of discussion. I came back round to this subject on my own and quite by accident.

7. I further increased canned food allotment, slashing kibble intake to almost nothing. Over a period of several weeks blood in urine (high, and increasing) has dropped more than 95%. (Pee is monitored in bath and also with a layer of white fleece over her litter pad. This allows me to get a good feel for amount of pee and coloring (shades of yellow, amount of brown blood, amount of fresh blood. I keep many notes.)

8. And this is where we are now. We are not far enough into the recovery to say if she is 'cured'. I cannot know how much damage has been done during the several months that she was presenting blood-in-urine.

9. Anything meaningful from the vet will run several hundred dollars in the blink of an eye, so I haven't been able to bring her in the loop of this possible major improvement of Sophie's condition and get additional advice/opinion. I do the best that I can and keep a ton of notes in Excel and Word files.

10. At one point I had some 'Notes' posts about our situation and the vet experience. It wasn't well received so I abandoned it. I may pull together a set of organized notes and put some of this on one of my own websites or blogs. That would be a lot of work, so it may not get off of one of my many lists.
....................................................

Bonus video of Sophie; nail inspection/clipping and petting.
youtu.be/n2cXNNz-E4s


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

That makes me wonder if it's just the kibble is too dry - I know someone (LizardGirl, probably) has said the problem with high protein is not enough moisture with it - that they can't drink enough to help their kidneys process it. They're just not built to process a kibble diet yet, so that's causing the kidney problems? That'd make more sense to me than the ingredients thing, other than needing more roughage/fiber (which we already know & why lots of insects are recommended, if at all possible). 

GoodanPlenty - I'm curious, does she mostly eat the wet food during the first part of the night? Have you had any problems with it drying up too quickly or anything? I know one of the concerns about feeding it regularly is that it might go bad over the courses of the night, especially under heat, but other than that it sounds like a good solution as well. I know canned food is better for cats, due to the higher moisture (and cats don't drink much water since they would normally get a lot of moisture from prey).


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## MochiAndMe (Jul 13, 2013)

What canned food are you feeding her GoodandPlenty? I thought canned foods tended to have higher fat and protein amounts...?


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

> That makes me wonder if it's just the kibble is too dry - I know someone (LizardGirl, probably) has said the problem with high protein is not enough moisture with it - that they can't drink enough to help their kidneys process it. They're just not built to process a kibble diet yet, so that's causing the kidney problems?


! ! ! ! ! ! When she got her battery of tests (more to eliminate things that could be causing blood-in-urine than specifically identify THE cause) - the one result that came back a bit off was that she is slightly dehydrated. Obviously, this could cause all kinds of problems for all kinds of reasons. When she was a baby she drank tons, around 60 ml a night. I use a ceramic crème brûlée dish with 1" sides and provide 160 ml of fresh water each day.

As an adult her water consumption dropped way down. For the last many months she is averaging a pitiful 13 ml per night. (I measure her water with a plastic graduated cylinder that I got from a laboratory supply house.) Given that she has access to lots of fresh water (good quality), getting more into her was obviously going to be a problem.

The vet strongly recommended moistening her kibble as much as possible in order to add moisture.

NOTE: I am amazed that at this point neither the vet nor myself made a direct connection regarding the possible threat that her kibble might represent! Our talk about the kibble and concerns in the veterinary community about kidney issues was as an aside, general husbandry discussion. Of course, we covered a lot of ground in a limited period of time. Such is life.

I told her that success with moistening Sophie's food was extremely unlikely. I did try - starting with a very minimal wetting (to the point of not even being useful) of her kibble. Not surprisingly, she refused to eat any kibble for several nights in a row. If it is even slightly moist she won't touch it. I did not want to go so far as to try and 'starve her out' with the aim of forcing her to eat moistened kibble.

I changed tactics and increased her baby food ration (Gerber and Beechnut - chicken and turkey selections). I began grinding a couple of grams of kibble to dust, mixing it into her baby food, and then thinning with as much water as possible without the mixture slumping into soup. This, she LOVES. Throughout, water consumption has remained at about 13 ml per night, on average. Kibble remained available as free-feed and primary food. Consumption did drop. The baby food mixture became her first choice.

When discussing husbandry and foods, the vet specifically recommended Mazuri as a good choice. (Said that a lot of zoos use Mazuri.) ???

They do have specifically mentioned:
http://www.mazuri.com/hedgehog.aspx

For a variety of reasons, I saw no need at the time to make a food change. Plus, for much of her life keeping weight up has been the challenge. She was a big runner but simply wasn't eating enough. With that finally in good shape, did I want to make a major diet change that she may not even accept? At the time, there was no compelling reason to do so. It seemed likely as not that I might add problems and solve none.

Fast forward (and some of these things overlap of course) - her running has dropped from three hours a night (every night) to just under one hour on average. She was by no mean overweight at 360 grams, but she was creeping up, gaining a few grams a week. For her, under about 320 grams seems a bit thin. At about 350 grams she starts feeling and looking fairly solid - as in my wondering how much more would be okay.

While researching options for kibbles that were lower in fat and protein, I was surprised to find choices about impossible to find. Also, I was warned that if I did find foods lower in fat and protein, that they may be high in carbohydrates - which defeats the purpose - and that unless one is an expert with ingredients, picking a kibble for diet is a huge problem. There is listing on packages for carbohydrates.

I found that the canned foods were way lower in fat and protein and got some to try. Sophie loves them all.

Natural Balance Turkey & Giblets
Natural Balance Venison & Green Pea
Natural Balance Indoor Cat Formula 
Wellness; Core, grain free; Chicken, Turkey & Liver

It has since been pointed out to me - though I admit to not understanding it very well at all and needing further explanation - that the lower percentages of fat and protein in canned foods can be the equivalent of what is found in the kibbles - or even higher - and may not be an automatic help to lowering weight. Something about 'dry percentages' or some such.

I have found the effect to be at least somewhat true for Sophie. Her weight has leveled but I don't know how I will lower it if need be. She is okay leveled at 365 grams, though I think she might be better off at closer to 330 - 340 grams. If she starts to pick a few grams her and there again, I will need to make an adjustment.



> Have you had any problems with it drying up too quickly or anything? I know one of the concerns about feeding it regularly is that it might go bad over the courses of the night


Yes. She will only eat soft foods if they are within a 'range of acceptability'. Ha! I have a very small laboratory squeeze bottle that lets me squirt quite small and controllable amounts of water into the food. Then I stir it up with a chopstick. If it is soupy, she won't touch it. If it is too thick, she won't touch it. I aim for as moist as possible without slumping (still holding shape when transferred to the dish (a very small SS condiment dish)). She eats every little bit of it. I have not noticed any change in water consumption, but of course for her that is part of the problem and it would be hard to drink less. Grrr.

After 'together time' in the late afternoon, I put her baby food allotment in the cage. She comes out for it probably around 9pm.? Late night, (12am - 1am) I get her out and sit with her in the very low light of a lantern for 15 or 20 minutes. She naps in the crook of my arm. When I put her back in the cage I put in her canned food allotment. There is a bit of kibble available for free feed but I have consumption of kibble down to 1 gram per night.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yeah, I've seen other vets recommend Mazuri and I know the rehabber I work with has mentioned their other diets being recommended for various animals. I just still don't like the unnamed meats/fat...And though I get that hedgies need more roughage, I can't imagine them eating wood (ground aspen?).

Yeah, if you're going to compare wet food to dry kibble, you need to adjust the wet food for DMB - dry matter basis. Once you do that, the protein and fat levels are typically higher than kibble. The protein though, shouldn't as much as a concern as it is with kibble, since there's all the extra moisture to help with processing it. The fat can be an issue for most hedgie though, I imagine. I wonder if balancing that with lots of veggies (baby food form or otherwise) and lower-fat insects might help?

The method for calculating DMB, by the way:



> 100% - moisture content = dry mass %
> (fat or protein %) / dry mass % = dry mass (fat or protein) %
> 
> Example: Innova Canned Cat & Kitten Food
> ...


She seems like a picky girl, to say the least! :lol: This may not work for her, but for other hedgies, if people attempt using more wet food rather than dry kibble, if you could put in one tablespoon of normal or refrigerated food (so that it's edible right away), then another tablespoon lump of frozen food - so it thaws throughout the night and can be eaten later, since hedgies tend to browse all night rather than chow down in one meal.

With Lily, she died from liver tumors, and as far as we know, never had kidney issues - no UTIs or bloody urine, nothing like that. I'm not sure if cancer would be specifically diet-caused...perhaps more stress would have made the liver more susceptible to the cancer? At any rate, she did get dry kibble for most of her life, the typical mix of high-quality foods. The last 6 months or so though (maybe closer to a year, I have a terrible memory), I started really upping the amount of baby food - she ended up getting a cube of anywhere from 1-2 tablespoons of mixed baby foods each night, and usually she'd eat all or most of the baby food, along with 10-25 kibble or so. She was getting a lot more insects and such then as well. I also remember that her urine was pretty dark most of the time - not sure if that'd be whole life or not. Never any UTI issues, but it was dehydration-looking color. I couldn't get her to drink much, the water level in her bowl would barely go down most nights.

I dunno. I have already been liking the idea of a home-cooked diet more and more anyway, and this is just making the idea look even better to me for future hedgehogs. So far the reports back from the couple of users that are trying home-made or raw diets for their hedgies have been good - though obviously a few months or year's worth of results can't tell a ton in terms of effect on health & lifespan, other than no immediate problems. But there's been more interest in this kind of thing recently, as far as I can tell, and I wonder if it's the beginning of another shift in common diets for hedgehogs (the last big one being a shift from hedgehog to cat food, way before I got into hedgies).


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## unforgiven (Apr 26, 2013)

I'm in no way saying anything negative about the board or anyone on it as this has been a great resource for us as we had no experience when we got our girl. But, I just went from a level of being totally comfortable to uncertain in one thread. When I came to the forum, I did some searches on food and most everything pointed toward dry kibble and quality brands that I read. I switched her from the Purina Kitten Chow as recommended. She won't touch any fruits or veggies so she is just eating the mixed kibble and mealworms. 

I'm not sure how to make a decision on this with very little knowledge or background. I race motorcycles and I am on many racing boards and we debate tires and fuel all the time with various opinions, but I can easily experiment with these and come up with what works for me. I'm not qualified, nor do I want to do that with my hedgies health and possible life on the line.

There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this board, but a few stand out as experts. Is there a general consensus among them that might make this a little easier to base decisions? I'm sure I am not alone. Again, only good intentions meant here for understanding.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm sorry we've made it more confusing for you! :? That's one of the problems...there's just not enough solid research done on hedgie diets. So much of it is confusing for newer owners, and recommendations are usually opinion-based, based on personal experiences, rarely actual studies (or a combination of one or two studies and experience, maybe). 

As far as forum-active experts, I would wait for Nikki or Nancy to come along (or PM them if you want). They're the first two that come to mind that have owned multiple hedgehogs for a number of years. The other two are Kalandra and LizardGirl, but both have been scarce lately, due to life, I'm assuming.

As far as the forum in general, I can say honestly that in the 4 years I've been here, high quality kibbles HAS been the recommended diet - when I first started, one "junk food" was recommended to mix in, but that's kind of been dropped out of mentioning in the past 2-3 years.

I can't say more than that or anything in personal experience - I should've added a disclaimer to above posts that it's all mostly speculation based on what I keep reading on here from various people (LizardGirl was the one who mentioned the relationship between protein levels & moisture levels), and nothing is based on my actual experiences. So I'll hush up now to try to stop confusing people!


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Food is confusing and even more now with all the recent recalls. Some long time multi hedgehog owners and breeders swear what most of us consider the crappy brands are best. Others feel the highest quality possible is best. 

I've always gone with upper middle. For years I fed Solid Gold Katz'n'floken and Chicken Soup lite as the main two foods. Now I'm not so sure as both of them have been through recalls. It's getting more and more difficult to find a food that hasn't been involved in a recall. 

Blue Buffalo was becoming very popular among hedgie owners but it recently changed hands and now there has been mention of problems.

Another problem is shape. Many years ago when I had 30ish hedgehogs I tried many different types of food and the majority of the hogs would only eat X or Y shapes. Round, oval or pellets did not go over well at all.

Right now I have a rescue eating Fromm Gold and it is a nice sized food that he seems to love. 

I can't really be of much help because food is an ongoing issue for me in recent months as well. I may continue with the Fromm if I can find it here. The bag I'm using came with a rehome from another city.


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## MochiAndMe (Jul 13, 2013)

Wait, what are the recent problems with Blue Buffalo?


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## Sonics1AndOnlyGirl (May 25, 2013)

MochiAndMe said:


> Wait, what are the recent problems with Blue Buffalo?


I'd like to know too. I feed Blue Buffalo at the moment.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

There's been a lot of complaints recently on various sites about Blue Buffalo making dogs/cats sick. I don't think there's been any response from them yet (but haven't checked recently), and it's hard to tell whether all of the claims are truthful or a competitor. Here's a couple of the sites that Nancy found - 
http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/diet-nutrition/7394050-beware-blue-buffalo-dog-food-problems.html
http://truthaboutpetfood2.com/blue-buffalo-kibble-change
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/blue_buffalo.html


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## unforgiven (Apr 26, 2013)

Lilysmommy said:


> I'm sorry we've made it more confusing for you! :? That's one of the problems...there's just not enough solid research done on hedgie diets. So much of it is confusing for newer owners, and recommendations are usually opinion-based, based on personal experiences, rarely actual studies (or a combination of one or two studies and experience, maybe).
> 
> As far as forum-active experts, I would wait for Nikki or Nancy to come along (or PM them if you want). They're the first two that come to mind that have owned multiple hedgehogs for a number of years. The other two are Kalandra and LizardGirl, but both have been scarce lately, due to life, I'm assuming.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lilysmommy and I understand now that this really caught my attention. I have her on a mixture of the Peas and Duck and Nutro Natural Adult Indoors. She eats both well but prefers the peas and duck. I guess I will stick with that as she eats well and her bathroom routine seems to be normal. Oh, and your post are most helpful so no reason for you to hush.


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## Sonics1AndOnlyGirl (May 25, 2013)

Now I'm really worried. Blue Buffalo is the only food I have left in my hedgies mix sense Innova had a recall. I don't know what to do :sad: Should I keep it seeing as stores are still selling it or get rid of it?


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

Lilysmommy said:


> I dunno. I have already been liking the idea of a home-cooked diet more and more anyway, and this is just making the idea look even better to me for future hedgehogs. So far the reports back from the couple of users that are trying home-made or raw diets for their hedgies have been good - though obviously a few months or year's worth of results can't tell a ton in terms of effect on health & lifespan, other than no immediate problems. But there's been more interest in this kind of thing recently, as far as I can tell, and I wonder if it's the beginning of another shift in common diets for hedgehogs (the last big one being a shift from hedgehog to cat food, way before I got into hedgies).


I am leaning more and more towards switching too..I wish their was a good home made/raw diet recipe that was tested for years and years. It's so hard to know what is right without studies. I do like the wet food idea that someone else mentioned. Then again, I did have my kidney issue girl on wet for the moisture, but maybe the protein levels were way too high still. I like the idea of freezing a cube while having a fresh portion, that's great!

Sonics1AndOnlyGirl: You could add one, two, even three other foods to the mix that way IF you decide to take your hedgie off Blue or it is recalled, etc, it won't be the only food and your hedgie will not be switched cold turkey. Plus if you add new foods in now it won't be as rushed incase he doesn't like one, etc as it would be if you literally had to stop feeding Blue. Just an idea 

It seems like I'm seeing so many recalled foods lately it's almost unavoidable. I do pay attention to whether a recall is voluntary and how quickly the company took it off the shelves, how many animals became ill before they recalled, etc- I think that makes a big difference..but still.


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## Sonics1AndOnlyGirl (May 25, 2013)

Stellara said:


> Sonics1AndOnlyGirl: You could add one, two, even three other foods to the mix that way IF you decide to take your hedgie off Blue or it is recalled, etc, it won't be the only food and your hedgie will not be switched cold turkey.


I did have two foods in the mix. Innova/Blue Buffalo but then Innova had a recall on all it's dry food. He's almost out of blue buffalo so I will be going to the store to buy another bag of it and a bag of Simply Nourish. I don't have very many options. The only stores I have near me are PetSmart and Petco.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Petco has quite a few acceptable brands - Natural Balance, Halo Spots, Wellness, Solid Gold, Castor & Pollux, Nature's Variety (although those might be too high in protein, can't remember). If your store doesn't have all of those or something, you can try requesting if they could special order some for you. Petco's also one of the stores I know has a policy where you can return opened bags within 30 days, as long as you have receipt & at least half of the food is left.


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## MochiAndMe (Jul 13, 2013)

I think Nature's Variety is too high in protein, and there is one that is fine in protein but slightly raised in fat...I may easily be wrong though. (I just remember looking at one that had higher fat, and considering it for my girl)


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## MomLady (Aug 14, 2010)

Very interesting discussion. 

This is one of the "downsides" of exotic pet ownership. In the end, YOU have to do your research and decide what is right for your hedgie. (Think there's a lot of opinions--wait until you have a human kid!)

I moisten my dry food with flaxseed oil, just a little. I make a small cut in the capsule and "drizzle" it on her food. That way she gets her flaxseed for dry skin and softened kibbles. Granted not all the kibbles are moistened. 

I've experimented with making meatballs and that works well. 

Good & Plenty, I may just try your baby food with the ground up kibble in it. I have to split the Chicken Soup Lite anyway. 
Thanks!
ML


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Very true, MomLady! It reminds me a bit of the issues with feeding sugar gliders. I've done some research into them since I'd like to rescue a couple someday. Kibble available for them as well...but it's not good to feed them at ALL. And of the appropriate & recommended diets, there's at least 3-4 that I recall, and it seems to be a "try & see which works for you and your suggies" kind of thing. I feel bad for new sugar glider owners too!


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## redhead38 (Jul 11, 2013)

Just my experience with Purina Kitten Chow... Our Hazel came to us on Kitten Chow....like all new hedgie owners, the forum made me want to get better/high quality foods for her. We went with Nutro Natural (not sure which one excatly now but it was all our petstore had that fit the guidelines), anyway we mixed it in slowly to not have stomach issues. She completely stopped eating the Kitten Chow...wouldn't touch it! So we switched over completely to that. 

I know nothing more than the research we have done, but I do know our girl knows what she likes! We do supplement with meat and veggie baby food (she loves her chicken!)...and some raw veggies from time to time. I am looking to add another high quality food to have a mix but the "better" pet stores are an hour away so waiting until we have another reason to make that trip!


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

Yes, fabulous discussion here. A real understanding at how many things we have to consider generally - and then adding into the mix our specific situations and hedgehogs. Even the 'absolutes' have plenty of well reasoned exceptions. Making choices is really hard. At times the choices are quite serious business and there is no 'right' answer. Sometimes that isn't acknowledged enough.

.......................................................................

Regarding Sophie's baby food mixture. I started on that when she was young and running so much every night but not eating enough to keep her weight up. I had a higher fat kibble that I wanted to give her but that she didn't like. I took advantage of her being a preference eater. She eats what she likes most, she eats it first, she eats it all, and only then she will move on to choice number two. She loved the chicken and turkey baby foods and I was able to hide that kibble by grinding it into dust with a mortar and pestle. I had to thin with more water than usual but that's no problem.

.......................................................................

I've had two vets personally and strongly recommend not feeding kibble 'full size' because of the extra wear and tear on teeth over time. I have always put out kibble by count (because I've measured and averaged counts to weights for comparison purposes). It is easy enough to quarter her kibble with a blade from a box cutter; just takes a minute and I do feel that it makes a difference in the effort needed to eat kibble. It is also very easy in the morning to get an accurate count of what she ate. Simply crushing the kibble would make it a lot harder keep track of.

.......................................................................



> 100% - moisture content = dry mass %
> (fat or protein %) / dry mass % = dry mass (fat or protein) %
> 
> Example: Innova Canned Cat & Kitten Food
> ...


Thanks for the formula and the example. I've a much better grasp of it now - and why my results have been okay but less than expected.

I have recently been grinding more of the lower fat and protein kibble into her canned food to somewhat reduce the amount of canned food she gets, and maximally hydrate the kibble in a form in which she will accept. I am hopeful with this strategy.

.......................................................................

I have tried to get Sophie to eat many different fresh fruits and vegetables. I put each selection in her cage for several nights with each and every one. She hasn't accepted a single fruit or vegetable. Won't touch them. Grrr. (Can't complain - she's mostly been pretty good about things.)

.......................................................................

In just 1 1/2 years, three of Sophie's kibbles have been recalled; all 'premium' selections. With each recall the list of affected products was pages and pages long. All of these foods are made in a very small number of plants. It's crazy. On the plus side, the actual number of contaminated products and affected animals is usually a barely measurable percentage. It's a real hassle though.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

Lilysmommy said:


> Very true, MomLady! It reminds me a bit of the issues with feeding sugar gliders. I've done some research into them since I'd like to rescue a couple someday. Kibble available for them as well...but it's not good to feed them at ALL. And of the appropriate & recommended diets, there's at least 3-4 that I recall, and it seems to be a "try & see which works for you and your suggies" kind of thing. I feel bad for new sugar glider owners too!


Very true- I rescued several gliders and it was very difficult at first. Still, I must say that it was easier for me than hedgehog diets. There are a few fairly well-established sugar glider diets but the one thing I liked was that the knowledgeable people I spoke to each had the one they liked, but said you need to feed what the gliders took to best. So, naturally I fed a few different diets depending on which the particular glider liked best. I guess the other thing was that their lifespan is so much longer maybe the ill-effects of a diet that may not be right on track are not as quick to spring up if things are just slightly off. And at least there is (or was when I had them) a woman running a glider research facility at the time. As far as I know there are no such things for hedgehogs unfortunately :-(
I feel like I am constantly worrying about diet issues..well all issues for that matter. With all hedgehogs are prone to it's hard not to get too obsessed with it. The worst part is that all of the answers simply are not there yet. Thank goodness there are at least sites like this where many owners can come together and share what works for them, or I'd be at a complete loss!


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

I'm not prepared to point to specific resources because I am not satisfied with anything found so far as being in any way 'definitive' or 'scientific'. However, as an aggregate, I am finding a lot of references to benefits of moisture dense foods with small mammals. It appears that diets heavy on kibbles (which was 95% of Sophie's diet) put huge stresses on the organs of small mammals, most especially the kidneys. Another of the effects is dehydration (which was the only data point out of norm in Sophie's testing).

The x-rays, blood tests, and cultures eliminated a lot of possibilities for blood in Sophie's urine. I am strongly believing it likely that her kibble was killing her. (I speak specifically only of Sophie. I know that most everybody feeds all-kibble-all-the-time with no problems.)

After noticing the possibility of reduced blood-in-urine after adding canned food to her diet (for unrelated reasons), I have tested that possibility. Blood-in-urine has been reduced by 95% (from quite a lot every night to a small amount every night). I have moved her to zero dry kibble and am feeding only moisture dense food. She is still getting kibble, but I am grinding it with a mortar and pestle, mixing it into her baby foods and canned foods, and thinning as much as reasonably possible with water.

I am hopeful that the blood-in-urine will end. (The addition of a layer of white fleece over her litter pad has been immensely helpful for monitoring pee quantity, coloration, blood content.) Perhaps too much damage has already been done and bleeding will not stop entirely. Still, the improvement is marked, indisputable, and I believe the likelihood of my assumed cause/effect to be strong.

Running times remain low for her, but average speed on the wheel may be up a tick. Her average speed was 1.8 - 1.9 mph; night after night after night.  For the last few months that has been ticking down, reaching a low in recent weeks of 1.45 mph. I have nightly data from six weeks old to her current 20 months. Average speed is an extremely consistent data point. It barely moves. The last three nights she has averaged 1.63 mph, a statistically significant increase IF this is the start of a trend. Too soon to say.

I am certainly on the lookout for additional data that supports (or contradicts) a recommendation for feeding moisture dense foods and avoiding kibbles. I believe that there are studies out there that hedgehog people can use. I believe that vets are aware of this (at least indirectly) and that the information is not making its way to enthusiasts (serious owners) in an effective or useful way.

I may gather my notes and thoughts and see if I can organize them into a series of questions for my vet. I am very happy with her, but animal doctors, like people doctors, are frightfully expensive. Sophie gets better care than I can afford for myself.


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## ZeeMartin (Aug 5, 2013)

GandP, can I just say you're my data hero!
your data logging makes me nod in that engineering-respectful way.

don't know if you want to add another variable to your equasion, but here's something to consider.
cranberry is particularly good for UT issues - the mode of operation seems to be that it makes the UT tissues more difficult for bacteria to latch onto. 
If there is slow-healing damage, that may indicate an ongoing bacterial assault, low grade infection. slow to heal because the body is continually fighting off infection. sounds like headway is being made, however, if you reduce the opportunity for bacteria to get ahold, faster progress should be made.
I used to have recurring kidney infections, what resolved them was 2 things: increased hydration and consumption of cranberry juice. I can give you human-sized details on dosing if you like (so you can scale).
anyway, just a thought... cranberry juice for hedgies.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I hate that you and Sophie are going through all the problems...but at the same time I'm so glad that Sophie has you taking care of her, and that you're able to share the situation & information with us! It's certainly interesting, and may be very useful for others that have similar situations with their hedgies.


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## Kizzynicole (Mar 5, 2013)

On the note of cranberries, I noticed that wellness indoor seems to have a bit of cranberry in the ingredients. I know that wellness has had it's controversy over richness, but maybe the added cranberry could help. That is if cranberry helps small mammals the same way it does in humans. Although, I know there are many other cranberry sources to try as well of course! =)


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I feel like it'd be better to add the cranberry in somewhere else though - you don't really know how much of the ingredient's usefulness comes through the kibble-making process, especially if it's added in before the cooking and such. It might help a bit, or for some preventative, but I feel like it might help more so (especially with a situation like this) to add cranberry juice or mashed cranberries in to a wet food mix or something (assuming she'll even eat them). I'm sure every little bit helps though, so it can't hurt, at least, to try the food! (Also, I have little/no experience in actually using cranberries for kidney/urinary issues, so this is all just speculation!)


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## ZeeMartin (Aug 5, 2013)

here's my specific (personal) case study...
I had 1-2 kidney infections a year for probably 8 years. some years, also a bladder infection. My kidneys showed "increased porosity" - basically residual damage from the repeated infections.
I started treating early onset symptoms with cranberry juice as follows:
1/2 gallon per day of cranberry juice per day for 4-5 days
sometimes 3/4 gallon of cran/apple or cran/grape per day instead of straight cran.

symptom relief within 2 days.

since I started this (maybe 20 years) I've not had one infection progress past early symptoms, have not needed antibiotic treatment of either kidney or bladder infections.

Over that time I've weighted between 130 and 165, in case you want to try to calculate dosage.

higher amount of cran apple or cran grape because of reduced amount of cran in it. apple juice does have some antibiotic properties as well. grape juice has antioxidants.

there are capusles of desicated cranberry available at some health food / vitamin stores.

getting a hedgie to consume cranberries might be a challenge, cran grape is sweet enough to perhaps be palatable.

good luck!


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