# Post op questions



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

So Holly is 3.5 years old.
I found a lump - Which turned out to actually be a string of 3 small lumps!
And then once she was under the vet found another lump in a different place, which was much bigger.
They have all been sent off for testing, will get results of what they are in 1-2 weeks time.

So she was seen this morning for examination and then they kept her and she had her surgery today and has come today to.

So anyway I didn't think to ask the vet (and they are now closed so I cant call them to ask) is loose cardboard bedding (made for pets) okay to use still? Or should I be using something else while she is recovering? Will the loose cardboard aggravate it?
I can easily sort something out before putting her away tonight I just need to know!

Also one of them seems pretty messy so whats the best way to clean that - again something I should have thought about at the vet and didn't!

This is the first time I've had a hog with surgery so sorry if these are stupid questions!

I know that replies here can take ages but I'm really hoping that someone knows and can tell me in the next few hours!!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so I have decided to just change to fleece as its softer and probably safer just incase the cardboard could irritate the wounds.

And I have found to boil water let it cool and add a little salt to use to clean it up a bit- being gentile obviously.

But if anyone has anything they can add to it I'd still love to know.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Where were lumps/are her incision(s)? How big of an incision?

Personally, I use light color or white cloth liners during post op. It keeps things from getting stuck and I can monitor for blood, discharge and urine spots on the liner much easier than in any type of substrate bedding. 

For cleaning, be as gentle as possible. If she has external sutures be careful when cleaning around them. You don't want to catch the suture. Most of the time any dried blood will flake off on its own fairly quickly. Depending on the tumor and how they removed it, you may also find that she will have a lot of bruising around the incision site. It can be really disturbing, but it can be normal depending on the tumor removal. 

Watch her behavior closely and monitor her temperature. I have had a couple who wanted extra warmth the first night or two after a big surgery.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

This a photo much easier than trying to describe it!
The vet said she only made small incisions.

I only wanted to clean around the top one, shoulder area I think the vet called it, as she seemed to be trying to lick it clean and I didn't want her to accidently hurt herself - Holly loves to be clean and is always cleaning her own feet ect. 

The vet said she used disovable stitches under the skin, as she thought it would be better for her and easier than trying to remove stitches after recovery.

Holly only likes loose bedding, I tried her on fleece liners before and she got really mad about it, so I have gone with long loose fleece stripes, that are light in colour.
So nothing to really get stuck to, soft, and probably a whole lot better than the cardboard bedding she normally has.

I use white kaytee clean and cosy as litter, which I have left in for tonight but if something like paper towels or puppy pads would be better for the next week then I will swap it out for that in the morning.

She likes 26 degrees c at normal times and the thermometer is reading 26.7 degrees c.
And I have checked on her just now and she doesnt seem cold, she has been back in there for about 3 hours now to, so should be okay the rest the night, my room is pretty warm and her thermostat shouldnt let it drop either. If anything it always heats a little more than its set to!

Being the first time doing this I just want to make sure I do it all right, and with making sure I got everything I was told by the vet they both slipped my mind!


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## isitafireorisit (May 14, 2019)

Those incisions look so precise and clean! Really nice work by your vet. I haven't dealt with hedgie surgery but I had skin cancer removed from my lip last year and my surgeon suggested a damp q-tip gently rolled over the stitches to clean dried blood off the wound, and then I put a sort of polysporin ointment on for the first couple weeks to fend off infection. If you don't have or don't want to use q tips, a clean, damp gauze would work to clean off any excess dried blood. Main point is to be gentle and not aggravate the stitches or any open wound. If your hog is licking the wound a lot I'd say call your vet. I've never seen a hedgie in a cone but could be cute if nothing else!

I'm impressed that Holly let you take pics of her belly like that! Good luck to the both of you.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

isitafireorisit said:


> Those incisions look so precise and clean! Really nice work by your vet. I haven't dealt with hedgie surgery but I had skin cancer removed from my lip last year and my surgeon suggested a damp q-tip gently rolled over the stitches to clean dried blood off the wound, and then I put a sort of polysporin ointment on for the first couple weeks to fend off infection. If you don't have or don't want to use q tips, a clean, damp gauze would work to clean off any excess dried blood. Main point is to be gentle and not aggravate the stitches or any open wound. If your hog is licking the wound a lot I'd say call your vet. I've never seen a hedgie in a cone but could be cute if nothing else!
> 
> I'm impressed that Holly let you take pics of her belly like that! Good luck to the both of you.


The vets have done hog surgeries a lot, they also werent to deep which might help!

She was doing it but was very good at stopping, I generally think she was trying to just clean it though, because she was also doing all her feet at the same time so was having a bit of a cleaning session and was just going back to it through that, so thought if I cleaned it up then she will leave it be after.

We always have q-tips because they are always coming in helpful so I can gently roll a damp one of those over it.

I think once its clean she will likely leave it alone. But yea if after its cleaned she still licks it I will call the vet up.

Holly is very chill girl, so I just held her and then my took the photos, and she was just still for about 3 mins for us.
I have pictures of the lumps, although only one can really be seen.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Those incisions look great. 

How's she tolerating that incision today?


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

When I got her up to give her the meds she needs, she licked it a bit, and it looked a bit more red than yesterday. So I used a q-tip very gently and cleaned it up a bit getting moat if the blood off, and the skin looked a bit red, - I'm not sure if licking it can do that? I am guessing becauase the other incision isn't red at all and she hasnt touched that one.

So anyway about an hour ago, I went up to check her on her, she was out doing her business, then went for a drink, and ate a bit. I pretty much just watched her and then when she stopped and just looked at me I decided to stroke her and see if I can get a look, and it didnt look very red anymore like this morning.

I do have one more question, is it normal for the skin around that are to like bag a bit? I've add photos to try show what I mean!









In this one its pretty clear to see
Sorry she is in the litter which is now a puppy pad not the loose paper litter in the photo.


















And then these 2 you can see the line of the skin bagging, but different positions show it a bit differently.

I can call the vet I know, but they can be very busy so if unless its something thats not really normal/no one knows if its fine or something to be concerned about then I would rather not add to the busy phone line.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Some hedgehogs can have a lot of loose skin in that area and once the fur has been shaved off it often looks baggy in those that don't have a lot of extra 'fluff' to fill it out.

I've also seen it look a little pinched if they had to remove a little skin with the tumor to get clean margins. I normally don't worry about that too much initially as it often returns to normal as they heal. I've always been told just monitor for inflamed/hot to the touch, red or streaks of red, swelling, oozing, etc.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay great thank you.
I just wanted to make sure that its not really anything.

Yea the vet mentioned most of that to watch for, she also said that one will probably bruise because of where it was near a muscle.


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## ctreya (Jun 8, 2017)

Ria- thank you so much for posting this. We will be going to the same thing here in a few days and I have so many questions. You helped me think of things to ask the vet for postop. Please keep us posted on how you’re managing the recovery and any other little tidbits you may learn. I know I will superduper appreciate it! Speedy recovery to your sweet prickly pear. I have to admit I’m super impressed by the incisions. Looks like you found an awesome vet.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

ctreya said:


> Ria- thank you so much for posting this. We will be going to the same thing here in a few days and I have so many questions. You helped me think of things to ask the vet for postop. Please keep us posted on how you’re managing the recovery and any other little tidbits you may learn. I know I will superduper appreciate it! Speedy recovery to your sweet prickly pear. I have to admit I’m super impressed by the incisions. Looks like you found an awesome vet.


My vet came highly recommended by other hog owners they are main one in my area - though have to travel about 30mins they are 100% worth it!

This is probably a totally normal thing, but the skin where the fur is gone feels very weird! Just so that you already know and are ready for it, I knew it wouldnt feel the same but didnt know it would feel like that.

She doesnt like going from the loose litter to the puppy pad








This is the second morning I have found it this way😂

And this is her incisions this morning, 3 days after the surgery.








They both have a little bruising, but they both look like they are doing well.

Ignore her messy nails they will be cleaned and trimmed tonight!
She was having non of it the last few nights.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Looking good! That long pretty white fur they have can take what seems like forever to grow back too.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Ohh I do have one more question, the vet said she only needs the meds and now wheel for a week.

She should be fine to travel about 3 hours, in the car, to some of my family (she has been there twice since lockdown) on the 21st October?

This might seem totally stupid I just want to make sure its fine for her.
I don't have anyone I can trust to leave her with so if its not a good idea then I will cancel it.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

If she normally travels well and doesn't stress out, I'd likely go ahead with my trip. You'll just have to monitor her healing, but so long as nothing negative happens, I bet she will be in great shape by the time your trip comes up. Its been ages since I had a hedgehog with stitches that had to be removed, but I want to say we only gave them about 14 days before removal.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Yea she travels with no stress she just sleeps the whole way there, and then settles fine once she is in her holiday set up. 
So thats great! She is doing really well other than not liking that she hasnt got loose litter anymore.
Thats great information to know to.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Since Friday evening I have had to fight to give her the meds instead of her taking them great like she was before!

She has also been totally trashing her viv the last 3 nights, so I think she is missing her wheel to!

Its been a week tomorrow, so her last doses of meds are tomorrow, and I can give her wheel back that evening.
Would it be bad to give her wheel back a day early instead of her totally trashing her viv?
She is only ever on her wheel 40 mins to 1 hour and half throughout the night.

This is her incisions currently, photo was taken last night


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

You'll have to use your best judgement of is 24 hrs going to make a difference. But I have had to give a wheel back early before and have also given it for short periods of time and removed it if I thought the hedgehog was over exerting itself.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I decided to wait the last night, partly because by the time I saw this she was already back and I need to fiddle around to get it in, but also because I feel like she could use the extra night before getting it back.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

This is from last night, one week after her surgery








I think that they are looking good and healing well. 

She no longer needs her meds, and she got her wheel back Monday evening and ran just over an hour Monday and Tuesday night. She is really loving having her wheel back. 

Still waiting to hear from the vet (week 2 of waiting) to see what the lumps actually were. If I have heard nothing by Monday 18th then I will have to call them to find out.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I would be optimistic that no news yet means good news, so hopefully all turns out okay and it’s nothing serious! The surgery site(s) look great too, hoping for the best!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Called the vet this morning to see if the results came back.

The lumps turned out to be 2 different types of cancer.
One is spindle cell sarcoma, she said its fast spreading and tough growing.
The other is salivary adenocarcinoma.

So we are going back on the 4th in the afternoon to talk to the vet in more detail about the results, and she told me the vet said its best to give her some steroids to help prevent anymore growths.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Oh Ria, I'm so sorry. Spindle Cell Sarcoma is one of those that just breaks my heart to hear. Do a search on here for it if you haven't and you'll find a few threads where folks have shared their experiences. I ran into it in a very young hedgehog many years ago and I felt so lost when dealing with it due to its location, the age of the hedgehog, etc.

Fingers crossed the vet got it all and it doesn't come back. Keep us updated.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

No I hadn't thought about searhing the group, they did seem pretty positive that they got it all after the surgery.
The person I spoke to wasnt a vet and only knew what the vet had left her to tell me, so I'll learn more when I talk the vet on the 4th November as well.

I'm not really sure which one came from what place though.
The one under her arm was just one lump which wasnt small but wasnt too big either, while the one higher up was a string of 3 small ones. Its not really important I guess just I like knowing things like that.

Oh and I was going to add a photo of her healing and then I forgot to add it!
This one was taken last night.
They are pretty much gone! 









The other great thing is that she is as active as ever, eating great still and seems bright in herself so is doing really well.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so Holly had the vet again today.

The one under her arm is the spindle cell sarcoma and the string of 3 from her neck is the salivary adadenocarcinom

The histology report says this about the sarcoma, "This lesion is likely to display invasive growth and be locally reacquaint without a wide margine of excision. Sections suggest a very narrow shell of connective tissue around parts of specimen"
So I guess thats not a very good thing really because its more likely to come back then, thats what it seems right? 
It also says that its "poorly differentiated spindle cell sarcoma with mixed differential, subcutaneous tissue" which really doesnt sound good at all. So I'm think this is really bad. 

The report also says "the salivary gland adenocarcinoma is also poorly differentiated and can be seen to have displaced clusters of neoplastic cells in the adjacent connective tissue. Metastasis is considered more likely to be risk for this tumour"
Which I think is also really bad isnt it?

So seems both are poorly differentiated which I really dont understand what that means and I am struggling to find out. 

Anywayyy so the vet has said that all we can do is slow down any potential new growths with kemo, and to start with she will be on a type of steroids once a day, and I need to get more each month.

The vet said that if she gets anymore lumps, then we can remove them to make her more comfortable, but it wont stop her getting them or anything.

So I'm thinking that if she gets another lump I wont put her through the surgery or week of no wheel that she hates, when its just going to come back anyway and probably wont even help.
I love her and I want to do anything I can, but if removing the tumor isnt going to really help then I dont see much point putting her back through risky surgeries when it will just keep coming back again anyway. 

Hopefully she has at least 6 months.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Poorly differentiated (from what I gathered throughout Coco’s 18 month cancer ordeal) means a higher grade of tumour. If they were well differentiated, it would be lower grade. Unfortunately that’s not good news; the higher the grade, the worse it is. 

Ultimately you know Holly best. If you feel it’s best to not proceed with any additional surgeries, then that’s what you should do. Hopefully you will get many months together yet, and she continues to stay her spunky self through it all. 

Sending you hugs Ria, I honestly wish I didn’t know first hand just how hard it can be - but Hollys got the best owner she possibly could have, and I know you’ll only do right by her. I’ve been thinking about her, and I really wish you had got better news.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Thank you, thats great to know so I understand it!

From the description on the tumours and how much seemed to be intertwined into the tumour this time, and how risky anesthesia is especially with the older they get, and the areas they are likely to appear again are really risky places to do surgeries. Which really worries me about her having to go through it again, and then loose her wheel for a week, only for another to come back.
And most the time cancer will come back faster each time, even with kemo. 

The vet and histology report both make it very clear it doesnt matter how many time I remove it, its just going to keep coming back.

I mean Holly had high grade tumours and the only thing she did was start drinking double the amount of water the week leading to when I took her to the vet. Which the vet seems pretty impressed with given she had 2 different high grade tumours.
To be honest now I know that I'm super impressed with that! 

Thank you for your really kind words, makes me feel a whole lot better to be honest.
I want to thank you so much for all the help with her weight back when I needed it, because if it wasnt for you, she would probably still be overweight and those lumps would have been much harder to find, and a lot more risks to remove them.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

It essentially means that the cancer cells look extremely abnormal to normal cells. It’s a term associated with aggressive cancers unfortunately.

and I honestly totally understand where you’re coming from wirh surgeries. Some hedgehogs do take recovery from surgeries easier or harder than others. Coco would always bounce back within hours, but also her tumour reoccurred sooner and sooner every time (6 months, then 3 months, then 8 weeks).. I don’t regret choosing to operate, because it did buy her a lot of extra time (18 months when she was given a 6 month prognosis) - and most importantly, it was good time. However, not all cancers respond well to removals, and for some it can cause the cancer to progress quicker and cause the hedgehog to have an overall tougher time in recovery. So it’s definitely a case by case basis. I wouldn’t feel guilty for choosing to not operate in the case of reoccurrence, and similarly I also wouldn’t feel guilty for choosing to operate if you do. It really is one of those things where owner knows best, and if you have a great vet - and it sounds like you do - they should also give you their honest opinion on what they would also recommend/what the realistic outcome is with any option you do take (inc. if it’s to simply keep her happy and comfortable for however long that is).

& I take no credit for helping with her weight loss at all! You’re a really dedicated owner and did all the work yourself; she’s truly lucky to have you, and she’s in the very best of hands I’m sure. It’s an emotional rollercoaster that I wouldn’t wish upon anyone, but you’ll get through it. If I have learned anything from Coco’s battle, it’s to enjoy every moment you get - and to never take a single second for granted. Keeping you guys in my thoughts!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

From what I read about the spindle cell sarcoma, if they dont get all of it and they miss any, it will grow back quicker and more aggressive, and I think thats the biggest thing thats scaring me about another doing it again.

Holly bounced back really quick after her first surgery, she threw hissy fits towards the end of the week about not having her wheel and taking meds because she felt batter, and then her insicions recovered really well which is brilliant.

But each surgery is going to mean a whole day in the vet, a week of no wheel, and then even more meds and I can't see her being happy about that.

The vet said he wouldn't rule out removing it once or twice more, it could buy her more time but it also might not, and it will definetly make her more comfortable as she dies with it.

From what I understand about the spindle cell sarcoma is that when it comes, its going to be much worse than the last time. So with each removal its going to get worse, faster and more aggressive, which to me sounds worse than not removing it.
And the one on the neck was only found by the vet, I hadnt even seen or felt it! And thats likely to come back in the same place which is a super risky surgery.

The vet seems to think that from now she only has 6 months, and that removing any more will only be to make her more comfortable and wont help with her lasting any longer. So it makes me really question about if its worth that at all.
He never said it like that, but when my mum said "we might get another year" he seemed to be very doubtful, but when I said "even if she just makes it to 4 years old in 5 months maybe a bit after that would be brillant" he made it clear thats the more realistic thing with or without removing more tumours.

My vet is great really, very understanding, realistic and clear. I know the next step for the kemo if the steroids arent working well and everything.

I am going to hope and wish that with the steroids, it takes 6 months to even come back, and then asses and go from there.

I wish there was more I could to help her fight it and go for as long as possible, but I dont think there is unless theres anything diet wise because thats only real thing I can control.

One thing for sure I am likely to spoil her a lot more from now. People thought she was spoilt already! But who cares she can be more spoilt haha.

Thank you so much! But I would never have found out so much if it wasnt for you, oh in the end we have got her down to 450-440g. So she really came far from where she was 700g back in March 2019 at 10 months olol


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Ria, It is a tough decision. I've had hedgehogs who have had multiple surgeries. The tumors kept coming back but they were small and in locations that made them easy to remove and the recovery time was very short. But you are right, spindle cell sarcomas are bad. I have experienced it only once thankfully, but it was in a hedgehog who was just a year old. We had the tumor removed from his eyelid. It had already spread down into his neck and when it came back it was in a spot that had so many risks that we opted for hospice care. I probably posted some of this earlier so I apologize.

I took him in to see specialists. We had a veterinary ophalmologist perform the eyelid surgery. When the tumor came back we scheduled a visit with veterinary oncologists. We saw multiple doctors that day. It sounds like what your vet has told you is what those oncologists told me.

Spindle cells are a very primitive cell form, basically it is a cell that no longer looks like the original cell that it came from. We were told that these often have a high rate of reoccurance at the original tumour site. My understanding is they have a habit of growing fast if they are cut. We saw this when we had a biopsy done on the original tumor, it grew rapidly while it healed. 

Problem with removing them is that they also have a habit of sending out tiny tendrils of cells that will grow. Which is what happened with Riley, we removed the one from his eyelid, doc thought he got it all, but it came back later in his neck. 

They also don't react well to many treatments. Chemo does little good, cutting can cause them to regrow and larger if you don't get it all (one of the oncologists noted that he removed one once and before the stitches came out it had regrown). Radiation was the option given to me and at a price tag of over $9000 back in 2008 (or around there) with little guarantee it would work, he'd have to remain in hospital for about a month, it wasn't a viable option.

We did add prednisone late in Riley's treatment to help with inflammation being caused by the cancer. It helped, but was not a cure.

Riley lived for 8 months with his cancer. He was active and eating well all the way up to the morning we euthanized him. His tumor in his neck would not change for a while then suddenly would take a growing spurt and seemingly double in size over night. He never developed additional tumors. The evening before we said goodbye it had a growing spurt and started to cause him to wheeze, it was time.

I went through a lot of whatifs. What if we had attempted removal, what if we had debulked it, what if. It was painful. He was only 1 year 8 months old. You'll have to make decisions as you go along. If the tumors are small and up in the skin like before, maybe a surgery will give her quality time. Its balancing more time with quality of life. I have always tried to base my decisions on that question. Will the time spent recovering from surgery be minimal and provide the hedgehog with enough quality of life to warrant going that route. Is the tumor in a location where the risk of permanent damage is too high? There are lots of questions to think about.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

To be honest, I am basing my decisions of no more surgeries a lot on the worst case what ifs and fears of that.
Like what if the next time they do it bad because they know they arent curing her. Bad thought of such a great vet but I suffer with anxiety and I dont control those ones only how I react. 

Can I ask, with Riley, how long after was it before the new tumour in his next was found? I know its likely to be different with Holly but it might help with a rough period.

The vet said that he is fairly sure its all gone, but with very narrow margins and the type of cancers they are, theres a very high chance they will come back.
He also made it very clear that all the steroids will do is help to slow new growths down, predominately on the salviary gland one and not so much with the spindle cell sarcoma.

He was very happy that there was no new feelable or seeable lumps yesterday when he checked her over. So I guess thats a good sign they didn't aggravate the sarcoma!?

While I'm making the decisions that I done want to put her through surgery again, it doesnt mean that at the time of a new lump I wont change my mind depending on everything at the time.

I'm only on a short way in and already finding this really hard!


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

I believe it grew back between 2-3 months after the mass from his eye was removed. Riley was always very defensive and made feeling for new lumps difficult.

Surgery is a tough decision. You'll find many a posting on here of me being very pro-surgery. My stance changed after I lost a girl recently. She died 1 hr post-op to a bleed and the tumor wasn't even cancerous. It was behind her ear and deep and causing her issues. We may have gotten a little extra time with her. So yeh there are risks, I don't know what I will do the next time we have to deal with a tumor. My stance may be very different than it was before. But should it be easily removed... I don't know it is a tough one.

So yeh, I get it. I have lost many hedgehogs to cancer over the years, and lost both of my girls within 28 days of each other earlier this year. I'll echo EMC, one thing these little ones have taught me is to cherish every moment you get. Don't take them for granted. Our little ones are amazing, they have personalities that are amazing, and yet such short lives.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay thank you, Holly is really easy going so its pretty easy to feel around her for anything. Its good to know it could be up to 3 months though.

Honestly she could have it, and say have 6 months without removing it, let's say they remove it, but they don't get all of it, ten it begins growing a lost faster, that surgery cuts the time she had to live because now its going faster, I don't think I want to risk that at all. Thats purely based off that one cancer. 

She is my first pet, so also first hedgehog, to go through cancer with (although wont be the first one I love to die with the horrible thing)

I've always cherished her and the time I get with her, from the moment I got her and that will never change. I will never get another hog as funny, and strange as she is which is great, she truly is an amazing little girl and I couldn't have got a better first little hedgehog!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

So we have to give the steroids once a day, I chose to do the evening because I think its better for us both.

So far we have done 4 doses, the first 1 was fine, the second one wasn't to bad, but the least 2 she has been really fighting. 
If I try with her wrapped up in the blanket like the last meds to help her feel more secure when I hold her to give them, she will find a way to bury her head, no matter what!
Moves her head doesn't matter what angle I try to come from.
She uses her paw to try and push it away!

Each day I have managed to get her to take it, but I dont want to fight her! Will she get used to it? Is there a way to make it easier it - my mum can help some nights but a lot of them she is working so I really need a way that only requires one person.
Or should I call the vet to see if theres another way? Maybe I can do it like inject an insect with it and make sure eats the whole insect?


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

She will likely get used to it, but you can try injecting it, or mixing it into a food she will normally eat all of quickly.

He gave her prednisone right? Did he say if it was flavored or sweetened?


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

The bottle says prednidale. All he said was that it tastes better than the antibitoics and painkillers (although the antibiotics smelt much nicer haha)

She generally eats wet meat, cooked meats her and insects really fast and never leaves any.

So if I did a bit of wet meat and then mix the dose of steroids into that, making sure she eats all of that it will be okay every night?
I dont want to be fighting her each time because its annoying for both of us!


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

The wet foods with broth are great for mixing with meds without blocking the syringe. Canagan & Applaws are what I used to use; I would take up some of the broth in the syringe to mix with the meds and with Coco at least, she’d happily take the syringe. Giving an insect before administering meds can also make them relax their guard for a bit, and can make it a little easier to administer meds (for some hogs, not all). Just some tricks I used with Coco!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I tried giving her an insects then the meds, she wasn't having it at all😂 

She is fine with the syringe as far as I can tell from previous times - she takes meds when she thinks she needs them not once she is feeling fine! I think its just the meds she is rejecting taking but I could be wrong!

I think we still have some applaws left for my dog, so I can try that one tonight.
I know we definetly have pate type wet meat that I could probably mix it into if that would work.

Thank you, both of you, so much! I dont want to be fighting her daily.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

You can mix it with a pate and try syringing it also; I just wouldn’t mix it and leave it in her enclosure, just to ensure she’s getting the entirety of the dose in one sitting. 
Honestly a very smooth pate (so it doesn’t clog the syringe) may even be better than just the plain broth at masking the taste of the medicine. Hopefully you find something that works!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

If I mixed it into the wet meat in a bowl, I would give it to her just before going back, to ensure she ate all of the meat with the meds.

We have lily's kitchen and wainwright, bot can go pretty smooth when mashed with a fork so if the broth still makes no differcnce tonight I'll give that a go in the syringe.

If she still doesnt like it in the syringe that way, the maybe its not so much the meds but not liking taking it from the syringe?

Last night I did some applws broth mixed into the syringe, I still had to fight her, but that could just be from previous nights where its been just medicine, so will be trying that one again tonight.

Last night I gave her some wet meat, since it was open she may as well be able to have some.
She also drank her whole bowl of water again. The bowl holds like 90ml.
I thought given she has wet meat she would drink less of the water, but it appears not. Unless she is sneaking something in to drink her water!

The vet thinks it could be due to the cancers changing a hormone to make her want more, and the steroids should help with that if thats the case. But it also may not.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

How'd last night go? One thought I had last night was will she eat fruits or veggies? I have used sweet peas and applesauce in the past to help sweeten meds.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Last night wasn't as bad, but we still had a bit of a fight. I will be doing it again tonight, as I have it so I may as well give it another shot.

Shes pretty good with her fruit veg actually, I made her an applecake with some applesauce I made - all totally hedgehog safe, and she loved that!
So I will I definetly keep that in mind if we still struggle with the broth!

I'm not sure if its all the taste of the meds or if she is unkeen on the syringe as well. 
So once I have tried everything to try make it taste better, I think I will be inclined to say she isnt liking the syringe either.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so tonight, (about half an hour ago) I had to have another fight fir her meds with the broth.

As I have pate wet meat, thats my next thing I will try tomorrow, and if that still fails or the ones I use for my dog clog up the syringe.
I will be buying things to make the applesauce to see how that goes. 

If all these things still fail, then I have no idea what else I can try to not have to fight her to take the meds!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I have had great progress with Holly taking the meds! Though It takes 2 of us since she doesnt like the syringe! But its no longer a fight which is brilliant!

Though the amount if water she is drinking is mad! 160ml in the last 24 hours!


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Increased thirst and/or appetite can be a side effect of prednisone.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Oh okay, she started to drink more water when I first found the lump and then the vet said the meds should help a bit, but it seems to have increased from a bowl 90ml, to a bowl and a bit 160ml. 
So its great to know its probably just all a side effect of the cancer and Meds.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so I am calling the vet today, as I need to get her more meds, in the next few days, but life is busy so sorting it today. So I will probably mention a lot if this to them to. 

Holly has been 430g-440g for ages now.
14th November 2021 she weight 416g. (Having been 440g the week before)
21st November 2021 she weighed 412g
28th November 2021 she weighed 405g.

She isnt using her wheel anymore, the odometer records nothing, the camera shows she isnt and the wheel is always totally clean while the litter around it is a mess.
I'm going to have a look at the wheel and her nails later today to be sure its not that before jumping to it being a huge bad thing.

She also seems to be eating her biscuits a lot less. I don't think its appetite because she was super keen for her salmon last night, and she always eats her wet meats and plain cooked meats! It just seems to be the biscuits she is eating less of, I have watched her eat and it doesnt look like she is struggling, but she is very big on water, so maybe the biscuits are a bit to dry for her now? But she wont eat them once I add a bit of water or broth and make the biscuits damp. So not sure what I can do there. 

So where she ate 7g biscuits each night, she is eating about 3-5g of it. She is eating all her insects which is 10 some nights and 14 other nights.
She gets meats and wet meats 2 days a week. And she only gets about 6-8g of it. 

Is her weight loss likely just her eating? I'm not really sure what to do about her food. I'm sure its not her appitite though.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

If she’s drinking a lot and eating less kibble, if it’s possible I would put her on a mostly wet food diet - if not complete wet food diet.

her inactivity & lack of interest in her food could honestly be a multitude of things. I have no experience with this type of cancer nor do I have any experience with a hedgehog on the same meds as her. It could potentially be a medication side effect, it could be signs of advancing cancer unfortunately, or it could be something completely unrelated to her cancer at all.

hopefully someone else who has experience with this type of cancer can offer you advice, all I can offer really is to bring up your concerns with the vet and try incorporating more wet food into her diet to see if that helps.

keeping you guys in my thoughts!


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

The weight loss and lethargy are concerning to me. Talk to the vet about them. Pred typically is known to cause weight gain, I think due to water retention and due to increased appetite. I know it can cause mood changes/irritability in humans and I think it can cause lethargy in humans too. So maybe its having an impact on her too and doc needs to be aware of it. Pred is a powerful steroid, but it can have some nasty side effects when given in large doses (not sure how strong of a dose he is giving Holly) over long periods of time. Which can be frustrating if you encounter them as you cannot stop giving it without going through a weaning process.

I never saw any issues with basal cell causing problems, nor was I warned that it would. The main warning I had was that it would grow very large, would respond with rapid growth if cut/injured and would likely cause pressure on other organs, or in Riley's case his throat. I think we encountered a salivary cancer once, but I think it was removed and never came back as I don't recall who had it nor have it logged as a cause of death in any of the hedgehogs I've cared for over the years. 

We have quite often seen weight loss in hospice care as cancer takes a lot of the energy the hedgehog eats to feed itself. Ask doc about diet changes, I have been told many a time to increase protein and decrease carbs as carbs feed cancer. I have also had my vet recommend other supplements, like omega fatty acids, to help support the body. But those were typically with hospice cases.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Thank you both! Unfortunately I got a cold and when I woke up I could barely talk, (found out when I started trying to talk after writing my post in the morning) so I asked my mum to call the vet for me to arrange getting new meds, and mentions these things, although I think she has only asked them about the meda as she said she will get it for me tomorrow afternoon, and didn't mention anything else!

The bottle says "2x prednidale 25mg tablets. Give 0.15ml by mouth once daily"
I know it says tablets but its a liquid.

When she is out, she still climbs all over me and explores, and she is still keen to forage through the viv for her insects ect all her activity is normal except not using the wheel.

If she was lethargic wouldn't she move slower, and not do anything, and not just stop using the wheel? Or is stopping using the wheel like the start?

Also she eats her insects the same and she will eat a lot of wet meats, or cooked meats, it just seems to be the biscuits (the main part of her diet) that she isnt eating as much. But still eats a bit.
When I had the salmon last night that she absolutely loves, she was pawing at me, trying to climb me and trying to get to it, she was also going pretty quick to do this!
If she had a lack of interest in food would this not affect her wanting the things she loves, the insects and other foods, not just eating less of the biscuits?

Because of how she is and the problems I had ages ago with her weight, we have done out absolute best to keep the carbs as low as I possibly could while maintaining the protein and fat at the right levels.
Honestly the carbs are pretty low as it is.

I can change her so she has some wet meat each night, and still offer the biscuits. Or maybe I can mix the 2 like I do with my dog?

I will be talking to the vet as soon as I can, and I will try get my mum to tomorrow if she can.

I have been worried, but the first one I thought was just an off week, she has those sometimes, and then the second week was just so hectic I never had a chance to really look for help.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

I'd increase the wet food to see how she reacts. You are already monitoring her weight, so if she starts to gain too much, you can start to switch back to the kibble. I've quite often had a fat hedgehog who I have fought hard to keep weight off of, that I'm suddenly reversing and trying to put weight on once they have had a cancer diagnosis. It can change their chemistry drastically depending on what kind they had.

In my experience, with older and sick hedgehogs they usually stop using the wheel first but will be active when with me. But they do seem to tire. If she's overly active with you, it could be a sign of her being irritable. I've also had hedgehogs not eat kibble, but would other more tasty options when they weren't feeling well. So both to me are items I'd talk to the vet about to get an opinion of if it could be the pred making her not feel well or if he thinks it is concerning.

As you know its always best to chat with the vet to get his opinion. These little ones will keep us guessing.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Alright thank you! 

I will write some stuff down for my mum to mention and ask about if they have a couple mins to talk to her. (She is going straight from work so I wont be there and she doesn't want me driving at the moment so she is very insistent on me not doing so!)
Or even to leave there and get them to contact me when they have a chance to.

I'll start giving her some of my dogs wet meat tonight, but still offer her the biscuits incase she wants some of that to and see how we go there as well. 

Other than these I haven't found anything else wrong at all, like theres no seeable or feelable lumps I know that doesn't mean that nothing is there at all but its still good I think?


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Fingers crossed that its nothing. I agree no seeable/feelable lumps is always a good thing. Don't panic yet, lets see what the vet thinks is going on. Hopefully she's just having an off week or two and things will settle soon.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I never came about when we went back to get the meds on the 30th, my voice was a bit better enough I could talk, although very quiet.

We wasn't able to talk they were very busy, but the receptionist there is super knowledgeable and will always talk to the vet about things she isnt sure on, or thinks are a concern.

Anyway she thinks that giving her a more wet based diet with an increased amount of food (not by loads just a bit) might help. 
Because she seems to have only gone off the biscuits she doesn't think its an appitte thing.

She is hoping sorting the food might get her more active, but to call if she gets more lethargic, and or looses more weight.

We was also given 3 months worth of meds this time, 2 of them I need to mix up myself when I need it but thats written on the bottle was explained really clear so thats easy.
Better than making the trip every month.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so for the last week, I changed Holly's diet.
Sunday 28th November weighing night 405g

Monday: I did her normal 7g biscuits, 13g Applaws Chicken, 14 insects
She ate all the insects and meat, but only about 3g biscuits. 

Tuesday: 3g Biscuits, 13g Applaws Chicken, 10 insects
She ate everything here.

Wednesday: 0g Biscuits, 13g Lily's kitchen Chicken and turkey casserole, 14 insects
She ate everything here. 

Thursday: 3g Biscuits, 13g Lily's kitchen Chicken and turkey casserole, 10 insects
She ate all the insects and meat, left a little over 1g of biscuits. 

Friday: 7g Biscuits,13g Lily's kitchen Chicken and turkey casserole, 10 insects
She ate all the insects and meat, and about 4g of the biscuits.

Saturday: 3g Biscuits, 15g Lily's kitchen Chicken and turkey casserole, 10 insects
She ate all the meat and insects, and about 1g of the biscuits.

Sunday: 0g Biscuits, 5g Salmon during bonding, 12g Lily's kitchen lamb hotpot, 10 insects - Weighing night 881g.
She ate everything 

On Friday 3rd December 2021, I thought Holly's tummy seemed a bit round like a bump and felt a little off, I asked my mum incase I was imaging it, but she insisted its fine and normal. It felt the same Saturday to.
Last night, Sunday 5th December, It felt hard for sure, I didn't bother asking my mum since I think she is just going to always tell me that she is fine even when its clearly larger like a round bump and feels hard.

In the last week, Holly has gained 76g. 
I was hoping for a weight gain but I cant see the food really causing that much of a jump!
The lily's kitchen overall for the pot is 10% fat (not in dry matter so I know it would be higher if it was worked out in dry matter), and Holly's 7g biscuit mix is 13.6% fat. 

When I said it to my mum she was like "but did she poop this time like she normally does?" and she hadn't, so I got her out first thing this morning and she weighed 446g, so maybe a lot of it was just going to the toilet? 
This morning her belly didn't feel as hard either. But off to one side it felt a bit hard and like there is bump.

The belly could it be another tumour growing or more than 1 tumour growing?
Or maybe it's just bloating from all the extra water and different food and nothing to really worry over? 
I'm really worrying! I cant talk to anyone around me about any of this that's become very clear.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

So it's been a while since I posted anything.
From her stopping using her wheel in November, right through to just after boxing day, she was running her viv still, although from the start of December she did slow down a bit.

We found a new lump around the beginning of December. 

Holly's abdomen had become huge in a matter of time, from the last week of dedecember. 
And then 18th, 7pm she was fine running around my bed like normal before I could put her in the blanket to come downstairs. Through bonding time she was asleep but would move around here and there like normal. But when it got to 9pm, and we was giving her the steroids, her legs from like the ankle seemed limp, and she wasn't walking well just sorta dragging her ass around but she was trying very hard.
I moved all her bits so they were all closer to each other instead walking the length of the enclosure for everything. 
The next morning I checked on her and she was the same.
So I called the vet and they said they could fit her in they day, so yesterday Holly went to the vet.

The vet said that given her history, it seems theres a new tumour, thats leaking.
He said that I have 2 choices.
1 We can drain off the fluid and make her more comfortable and then give her diuretics to help the fluid not build up too much again.
2 We can put her to sleep now.
Removing the tumour is out of the option, the location of where it is, and the fact its leaking, means the vet wouldnt even want to do a surgery to remove it as its way to risky. 

Holly still seems happy, and bright and she doesn't seem like she is ready, I cant give up on her if she hasnt given up fighting. Plus I'd really prefer her to go around us, not in the vets if I can help it. So we went with option 1.

When he drained it out, a lot of blood came out with it.
But she went from 488g (weight from Sunday might have been higher when she was at the vet) to 442g.
He said due to the blood, they were limited in how much they could drain out, but they did as much as they could.
She is moving her legs better, but not fully to walk. But It might just take a few days to get back to it. And a little more sleepy because of the loss of blood. From the draining.

The vet said that she will probably go downhill fairly fast from here and that being on a hopeful side she probably has a month.
But she is a fighter and he seemed a bit surprised that she was still going as well as she is!

I think she might be a bit worse on her feet from here, so to keep her comfy as possible would it be best to keep everything flat? So changing her little tray from its step up to get in, into a puppy pad be better for her?
And should I try keep it so its all as close to each other so she can minimise the walking from one end to the other when she's struggling?

We don't have much time with her left now, and I want to make her as happy and comfy as I can in the time we do have.

We have no idea which cancer it is thats back, both are aggressive and likely to come back, but there isn't much of a point trying to find out now.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm sorry Ria that this is happening to her. I have had 2 now that had a leaking tumor, we opted for euthanasia on both. 

For Holly, I'd recommend putting everything she needs as close as possible to her. You might even consider putting her wheel in her cage if you took it out. While she won't likely use it, it can be comforting for them to have it in their cage. I had one who got upset if his was out of his cage, he'd look over to see if it was there then crawl back in his bed.

Give her whatever she wants. Keep her living area soft and snuggly. Keep things low. If you use a water bowl with tall sides, try to find a bowl that is more shallow so that if she tires she can sit to drink. Snuggle often and lots of bugs if she wants them.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I took the wheel out a while ago to give her more space to use the littler tray without it being in the way, but I can put it back in if its better to have it even not used. She hasnt seemed too phased when I check on her but it doesnt mean she doesnt look when I'm not checking on her.

I'm really hoping that she can die peacefully without having to go through a vet for help. But if it looks like that wont happen, then I will have to make that choice.

She has been getting what she wants. She will definetly be getting extra cuddles, kisses and spoilt in the time we have left.

This is what she has right now,
I'll be swapping the little tray out to like just a puppy pad like after her surgery.
And I'm in the process of making a fleece liner to put on the floor, with the stipes on top still. Just to make it easier for her, she is walking better on my bed and carpeted floor than she is in the enclosure.
But everything is all close (her food bowl is there she just covered it in fleece stripes)
I'll also probably be changing her bowl to as per your suggestion.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Looks good to me. You might see if you can build up a little ramp of sorts so she can get into her box easier.

Oh and my preference has always been to let them go naturally so long as they aren't suffering. Talk to her, let her know its ok and look in her eyes often. I've found that they generally can tell you when its time to help. 

Take care of yourself too. This is the hardest thing to go through with them. Stay strong now, which is easier said than done.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

So I swapped Holly's bowl to a more shallow one like her biscuits are in, which I know she can sit and lay down to reach inside even if its near the bottom.

I did leave her normal water bowl there to incase that one ran out over night and she needed a bit more water.

But it looks to me that sometimes she goes to move and just doesnt have the strengh so she doesnt bother moving in the end.

She seems a bit dehydrated to. She is still eating well though so I don't think she has really given up if that makes sense? Just isnt drinking as often as she used to/probably should.

After her meds, I gave 2.5ml of water through a syringe which she seemed to be happy for extra the water.
I told myself I wouldnt force her to eat or drink once she gives up. But I don't think she has really fully given up more like doesnt have the strength making her weaker, which means she is in like a circle that she cant really win to make herself stronger.
I really hope that all makes sense!

Anyway I have never been through anything like this before, so to help with giving her a bit of extra water, how much and how often would I need to syringe a bit extra?
She is still drinking normally herself to. So its not like all her water intake just like to boost it a bit to where it should be as she isnt drinking quite enough.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Do a pinch test to see if she is dehydrated. Pull up on her skin on her back, watch how long it takes for the skin to return to normal position. If it snaps right back, she's hydrated. The longer it takes to snap back the worse off she is. 

Everything you said makes sense. If they willingly eat and or drink from a syringe I continue to assist. If they refuse or fight me over it (and I don't mean the type where they have no idea what we are doing and fight me), well I take it as a sign.

For how much water, I honestly have no number to share that I use as a goal. I will give water so long as they take it. I will add water to their food to help hydrate that way too. How often will also depend on how much you get into her and how dehydrated she is. So yeh, it all just depends on how dehydrated, and how much she will willingly take. Just be careful, make sure she is willingly drinking it and doesn't aspirate the water. At a minimum I would try a few times a day, and give her as much as she will take if the pinch test fails.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Alright thanks!

I did a pinch test this morning before I gave her the water, and it was pretty slow going back.

After the 2.5ml of water it was a bit faster but she wouldn't take make more than that, just pushed the syringe away each time I tried.

I gave her about 4.5ml around 1pm, she willingly too it but then wouldnt take anymore. Kept pushing the syringe away again.
And her skin was much better after that.

She was drinking about 100ml since she got the cancers. Drank 45ml-50ml before that.
Since coming back from the vet when they drained off the leaking tumour its been about 30ml a day which is less than before she had the tumours. Today its been more around 40ml though including what I syringe fed her.

She has wet meat most days now since she was having a hard time with eating much of the biscuits, I crush the biscuits up but she was still struggling, and she wont eat it if its had water or anything added, but will eat it mixed with some wet meat.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

So I got another 4.5ml into her tonight with her meds.
We had her absolute favourite food, Salmon. And she isnt touching it. She started off sniffing, taking chewing a little then stopped and kept her paw on it.
By the time it came to doing her meds she wont even take it.
This is something thats normally gone in like 0.02 seconds.

She seems even more tired.
Her eyes are no longer beady and out but very retracted. Since about an hour into bonding.

These are from tonight through bonding.


























I'm not sure, maybe she has given up now?
Maybe I just don't want to see it just yet?


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

She is really confusing me.
She stakes the food, chews it a few times then just stops.

I really have no idea what to do, do I syringe feed her - if she accepts it until she dies?
Or do I just stop now? 

I told her that its okay to pass when she is ready. And then she started to try eat the salmon again. I am going to put her back away now, I cant sleep with her in the bed I move too much that I am scared I could cause her harm, and my room is a bit too cold for her while the enclosure is nice temp to make sure she is warm.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I’m so sorry to hear about Holly 

Ultimately you know your pet best, and it is only you who can tell whether or not it’s her time. 

For me, if she’s very dehydrated and unable to move on her own, and no longer gets enjoyment out of things she once loved (whether it’s food or her wheel), I think it’s time to consider her quality of life. 

It is a really, really, really rough decision to make. And if you want to wait a couple more days to see if she gets her energy back before deciding your next step, by all means - you know her best. For me with Coco, her downhill was pretty similar. When she started to struggle walking, it got to the point where she didn’t even have energy to leave her bed - and then she’d nibble on her favourite snacks but would spit them out, as if she didn’t have the energy to chew. I waited a couple more days, - but then I realised that she wasn’t enjoying life anymore, and she would have suffered or struggled along for a few more weeks before passing on her own… but for me, those extra few weeks with her were not worth it if she wasn’t happy or was in discomfort or in pain. 

Each animal is different. And no two situations will be the same. Euthanasia in general is a very difficult subject for many to discuss, let alone think about. But, i do want you to know that if that is the decision you do have to make that it’s not giving up on her or not helping her fight - sometimes they need our help passing, and in those cases it is the most selfless & kindest thing one could possibly do. 

Take a couple days, and take everything into consideration. It’s not a decision you have to make overnight. Take care ❤


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

So last night she ate nothing. Not the salmon, not the biscuits, not her insects.
She seemed to try with her insects and salmon but she would chew a little spit it out, even laying under her heat in the enclosure. 

This morning I tried to see if she would be okay with syringe some of her normal wet meat to her. Thought its easier than chewing.
I got about 2ml into her before she said no.

She drank a fair bit more last night compared to the last few, and she has also taken another 2ml while out. So she seems to be drinking a bit more again.

And then I felt her belly again when I picked her up to help move her and get more comfy and it had gone cold laying on my bed.
She seems to be getting colder, and a lot faster than she used to. Which I guess is normal when they are ill.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I told her she cant reject the syringe at any time she wants to.

She had 4ml of food come 3:30.
By 4pm she was really limp and only had the energy to move her head a bit and open her mouth.

Around 1pm she started making these like squecks that sounded like she was in pain and the look in her eyes when she made them, suggested she was.
In the end I gave her the steroids early around 5pm as they help with the pain to, and they stopped from then. 

I had her out cuddling all day, because I was home so I could.
I never put her back tonight, because I wanted to make sure she didnt feel alone. SO I stayed up with her. Watching Annie to make sure I didnt fall asleep. 

She died, at 12:27am Sun 23rd January 2022. Cuddled up with me, snug, warm, and safe in my bed and the last thing I said, just as she was dying, was "I love you, its okay" then the little noises she was making stopped and quills on her head went stiff, and I could no longer feel her breathing.

I am crying so badly, and have been since that moment, but at least I know she wasnt alone, she felt extra loved and her last whole day was spent comfortable, warm, and with a whole bunch of cuddles!
I mean really from the moment I woke up this morning, to the moment she died, she was cuddled up with me.

I cuddled her a little longer and decided I should get some sleep, but probably shouldnt sleep with her dead body, so I have laid her into her hide, into the ever growing cool enclosure.
I had no idea where else to put her for the night (well early hours the morning now I guess) or until I cant get her cremated like I want.

Thank you so much for the support, and the help from you guys through her entire life! Especially this hard journey at the end of her life!


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Rest in peace little one. You were loved and you will be missed greatly.

Ria, Its ok to cry. I'll cry with you. Its never easy going through this. I've done it many times now with hedgehogs, and it never is easy. Drink plenty of water to minimize the headache.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Thank you.

Holly is now in a small box with a lot if paper wrapping to keep her body safe and secure in my freezer until I can get her cremated.
My mum told me I should put her in something, in the fridge/freezer where I have space so it slows the decaying. So like always I listened to her.

When I touched her this time, she was so stiff and cold, and it really hit me hard that she is 100% gone.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I’m so incredibly sorry to hear about Holly. But she truly couldn’t have asked for a better owner than you. Rest in peace Holly ❤


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Thank you.

Really, neither of you know how much your words mean and help. I have a very low support so your support is great.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Ria if it makes you feel any better, the freezer is where mine go until I can take them for cremation too. I often wrap them carefully in a blanket, and put them in a bag. I talked to the owners of the crematory here and was told to leave them frozen its fine.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I wanted to put her into her favourite blanket, but I wasnt really sure about doing it as she is the first pet death I have been through so I don't really understand much.

I keep going to check on her like I normally would. And then realise she isnt there to check on and just get sad all over again.


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