# Holly's diet



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so some of you may know but Holly got a bit overweight a while back and we spent a while altering her diet and in 6 months I got her to loose weight to just over 100g never losing more than the 20g healthy weight drop.

Okay so she's hovering between 580-600 sometimes 605g. 
Without changing food I cant make her loose more.
With her recent vet visits because of urine (which is a totally different thread and story!) The vet said she isn't overweight but still pretty big. She weighed at exactly 600g on her scales!
The vet made a comment saying that she isnt overweight but is still pretty big. Although theres no fat on limbs and she so kindly proved to the vet she fully ball with absolute no struggle, she is also the right tear drop shape when you look from above. What the vet said has been bugging me

I asked my mum if Holly looks a bit chunky, she said no. But like why would a vet go off her being a bit big just over the weight? 

Holly stabled herself at this weight, with how much she eats to how active she is she's pretty good at balancing the two now.

So her current diet:

She is given 10g biscuit daily. A mix of 3 foods at 13.1% fat, 35.5% and 65% animal protein - this is for that 10g she is given. 
Of the 10g she generally eats 5-7g of that rarely 8g only when she has been a bit more active.

Once a week she get 5-7g plain steam cooked meat and veg.
Once a week she gets 5-7g plain steam cooked meat, on this she gets a flaxseed oil.
She tends to eat all of whats given with these

Once a week she also gets scrambled egg no milk or butter and just plain. Of this she gets 6-7g
She tends to eat all of whats given with this

She also gets wet meat every other week, it was weekly but we had to change it due to certain reasons. She gets 7-10g of this and tens to eat it all.
When she eats more of this she tends to eat 4-5g of biscuit so she still only really eats 14-15g at most of food. 

She also has her 14 insects, she has 8 different types all low in fat, I hide them around as I gut load them and then freeze them and feed them defrosted, so by hiding them around it makes her still have to work and be active to get them. Which I think is good.
She has a few mixes of these and they alternate days so she never has the lost of insects each day otherwise she stops eating them.

Once a month generally around the end of it she gets a 3-5g mouse that I buy frozen and then defrost to feed.

So this is her diet. 
Do you think it should be altered to get her to lose more weight. Or is she okay as she is and her diet can stay the same.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I’ve seen many hedgehogs who could fully curl into a ball, but could still evidently loose some weight - so it’s not necessarily a fool proof way of knowing a hedgehog is a healthy weight. Those who can’t aren’t overweight - they’re obese. But they can still be chunky (overweight) and need to loose a bit while still being able to ball. 

A picture would of holly herself from various angles would be the most help in determining if she’s overweight and then we can tackle her diet from there. It may not even have anything to do with her diet, but she may need more exercise - how often and for how long do you let her out to roam around?


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I try more in the summer she isnt too keen on playing outside the viv - we have the lights off so its dark for her when she's out but she isn't really interested in doing anything outside the viv other than trying to find ways back to cuddle me! In the winter I dont try, as my house is too cold for her we keep it at 23-24 and Holly likes 25-26 and they refuse to have heating up any higher, so I prefer to keep her snuggled with my under a blanket than try to get her to run around - which she doesnt really do anyway by her own choice I give her loads to do and she's never really interested outside the viv.
She gets her sand bath twice a week but she only uses it for like 10-15 mins by her own choice but not sure how active that counts for! 

In her viv she is active on the wheel anywhere from 40 mins to 2 hours sometimes a bit over 2 hours (I have a odometer now that tells me that) and then she tends to run around finding insects and playing with her toys (pushing them around) for like half an hour to an hour (I use the camera to see this)
I cant make her be any more active than that though. 
But the minimum time she is active for is 70 mins.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

She sounds pretty sedentary as far as hedgehogs go; while yes, giving them a wheel lets them run, at least I have never personally observed Coco running as fast as she does in the room on her wheel. 2 hours also seems very inactive; it does vary from hedgehog to hedgehog, but i would expect at least double that.

You say that she typically only eats 5-6g of her kibble, and im honestly not sure how safe it would be to cut this down further. She's eating almost the same amount as my girl whos 360-380g (she varies; but looks the same at either weight) but who is free range, and over two times more active. The issue, I suspect, is her exercise (or rather lack of it). I remembered you had an instagram for her and quickly checked it out; i dont know just how recent her recent posts are, but she does look overweight and like she could definitely afford to lose some more.

If Holly is really bothered by the 1-2C difference (many hogs will not care or have any adverse reaction to such a small difference for play time), I suggest looking into a room heater. Then, to get her more comfortable with being outside playing, look into creating a play area. Like this, or this. Many people place the viv on the floor, and leave the door open to the playpen permanently; so they can go back and fourth as they please. It's the preferable option (as they often prefer to be most active at the most ungodly of hours haha) but honestly any exercise she can get is better than nothing; the extra weight is not going to be good for her long term, and she does not look like a hedgehog who would naturally be 600g.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I cant put the viv on floor and have space for her to run around there's no where to really do that.

When shes out at 23-24 she gets very cold, her belly feels really cold, and she has been a bit wobby which makes her not active anyway, and she seems to get cold pretty fast like 20 mins and shes already cold. That 1-2 degrees does seem to really affect her. 
I would love to give her more time to exercise I really would but its not easy

In the summer its easier because she wakes up at 9:30pm so then I can give her and hour on weekdays (because I have to be up early so I can only really giver her till 10:30pm) Friday and Saturday evenings I could give her an hour and half-2 hours in the summer when its warmer, but in the winter its not possible.

She's in my room, and I dont have the room to have a big play area because my room is very small. So I have to keep setting it up taking it down daily in the living room, but they wont allow me to have any other heat source on for her or put the house heating up to 25. Which is actually really annoying, but Its not my house its my mums so its what she says really.

I've been trying to sort my room to get more room to have a play area set up all the time and then look at a space heater to get to keep it warmer. But I cant move furniture myself and no one wants to help me (typical annoying family)

I dont want to cut her food anymore than I have. She's fine running up the hallway and back to wherever I am but I can only do that for 3 mins before I have to take her off the carpet because of peeing and pooing (my mum doesnt want that on her carpet) 

Idk what I can do. The ones on her instagram are very recent, taken either the day they were posted or like a few days before. From the witches hat they are all from October this year. So just last month.

I know that the balling isnt the thing to go by. I go more by the shape, but its hard to tell sometimes, when she lays flat she looks fat but from above standing up she looks fine, then some angle she looks a bit chunky but others she looks fine. I just check she balls up easily to be sure shes not too overweight which also proved it to the vet that she isnt THAT bad like she wanted to make out in the first place.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

What size wheel does she have? Is it the regulalr (11.5") or large (14")? 

But If you bought some cage liners, you could cover the carpet in your hallway so she can continue to enjoy playing there for longer periods. Heck, you could even use a cheap tarp from a garden store and cover it with cheap fleece from primark to make it more comfortable for her for playtime. 

The only tweak to her diet I'd make is to stop offering her 10g, and just often her 6-7g. The least I would offer would be 5g. But diet is only one part of weight loss, adequate exercise is the other.

Is there any way you can convince your mam on the importance of her losing weight? The extra weight will put added strain on her heart, her little joints, and not to mention the risk with anaesthetic goes right up with animals who are overweight - which is likely why the vet was trying to make such a big deal out of it. I can see where both of you are coming from, honestly. There are some pictures on instagram (like when shes anointing, or wearing her hat) where the really doesnt look that bad - but then there are others, and I mean this with absolute no ill intent, as hedgehogs are unfortunately just prone to obesity, but she honestly looks like shes on the brink of obesity. If she is currently anything like the photos from october 13th & september 18th , if god forbid she required anaesthetic at this time, it would be incredibly dangerous.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Her wheel was given to me for free second hand because she was falling off the old as it dipped too much I was never told the measurements.
So I just measured is and its 10.5"which is odd because its a tic tac wheel and the website says the standard ones are 11.5"

The hallway isnt loads warmer, but the carpet is really thick which makes it slightly warmer at her level and even with with two layers of fleece on the wooden living room floor its still really cold.
I've asked her loads if she can get something to put on the hallway floor then I can use the pen (because its like one those shoe racks that you put together yourself so its easy so change shapes if needed) to stop her going too far up the hallway. But she wont, plus she said it will anyone that wants to walk down the hallway (although the times I want to do it they arent generally walking down the hallway!)
She says she cares and wants to help, but doesnt seem to want to help me.

I understand why the vet made a huge deal, but they way she was acting was like Holly couldnt even ball up which is not right at all bugged me a little the way she said it. I see her point, but obviously she didnt have to exaggerate it as much as she tried.
Mostly the last 3 sundays (not including today's as not weighing her until later) she has been 595g
And does look more like she does in the hats
The biggest time I think she is overweight is when she lays totally flat.

The first photo is the 16th November when she was asleep. I know shes at a slight angle but you can still sorta make out her shape from above. She does look slightly big at this angle laying like that!

The second and third are from the 21st November its not the best but here she doesnt really look overweight. (Maybe she does to others but not to me idk)


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Does she fit in the regular tictac wheel? I cant imagine a 600g hedgehog comfortably running on a wheel that size. Generally, I would imagine those wheels are for 400g hedgehogs max, and then anything over that you choose the next size up. Have you witnessed her running (like running, and not walking) on it for prolonged periods? Im not saying that she absolutely cant by the way; because she may be able to, i'm just having a hard time imagining it haha.

As for the pictures; Coco looks bigger when shes laying down too - but I can see a _lot_ of little fat rolls on Holly there, which shows a lot of excess body fat. The third picture also looks like she is overweight to me; there's a lot of fat on her face, and around her arms.

I think it can be hard to tell for you, because youre used to her. Do you know anybody who owns a fit hedgehog personally? So many of them are overweight in captivity, and many owners dont even notice because its all theyve ever known or seen and they often times dont see how overweight their hedgehog is. its very common with all animals; not just hogs - some people genuinely get so adjusted to their animal, that they cant tell its overweight.

Here's Coco at 380g. Took a few snaps a few minutes ago. when she's laying down, you can tell that she obviously looks larger but when up, you can see she is a teardrop shape; a healthy hedgehog should have straight sides, or have a slight roundness (literally like a potato) - but they should not be entirely/overly round.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I've never seen a perfectly fit hedgehog, I dont know anyone in person anyway. When I got her I think she was big. Because even at the breeders she looked pretty round with a bit of fat on her legs and around her face, because until you pointed it out, I didn't really see it.

I have the camera in the viv and she can run well on the wheel.
I only got it second hand because I didn't have the £30 for a wheel at the time and someone offered it for free so I took it.
I was going to make a bigger bucket wheel as it cost less, but I haven't had the time, I want to see if she will run better on a bigger surface.
The picture is her on it when I was trying to get her urine samples

I do want her to loose the extra fat, I really do. But my mum wont listen to me and wont help me which is actually really annoying, because she says she cares and wants to help, but then doesnt.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Okay, so she does fit haha; looks like her nose is a little close to the running track, but I cant tell if thats just her stretching out. Given that she fits on a 10.5" wheel, we can say with absolute certainty that she is a decent amount overweight - a hedgehog who is going to be naturally 600g is going to be a larger individual, who wouldnt comfortably fit on a wheel that size. It's impossible to say what her ideal weight is, as you mention she's always been on the heavy side? But honestly, I would not be surprised if she could afford to lose easily an additional 100g. 

The only issue is I dont know how youre supposed to get there without additional exercise. You could completely stop bowl feeding, and start feeding her kibble in a fleece forage box to get her more up and active for meal times - but i don't know how effective that would be, but it's at least some additional movement and digging around.


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## y2jdmbfan (Oct 1, 2019)

I think you are being way too worried about the little things with this hedgehog. Hedgehogs only need to be eating a good quality cat kibble. You have it broken down so much you are making it way harder than it should be. You fiasco with the pee color was a little over the top as well. Are you OCD by any chance? I tend to have a bit of it as well on occasion, so I can understand that. The hog is definitely overweight. Change to a low fat high quality kibble and limit to 1-2 tablespoons a night.

Sent from my SM-F900U using Tapatalk


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I pity a hedgehog fed solely a dry cat kibble; that is not the most appropriate way to feed them. They are insectivores, and need variety in their diet - and a variety of insects is especially a must. 

I'm not here to speculate on someone's mental health, but it is perfectly normal (and expected) to be specific with your hedgehogs dietary details if you are asking for advice/opinions as to whether your hog is overweight. If Ria had just said that Holly gets kibble and insects daily, and twice a week gets come cooked meat, once a week got scrambled eggs, and every other week got some wet food I would have asked how much she gave her to see if there was a connection. She weighs out her food, because Holly is overweight and has been obese. 

Worrying about a hedgehogs urine suddenly changing colour is also completely normal. Maybe not for you, but for many it is. 

Pardon, but I frankly dont find how your post is helpful, and to be honest, it comes across as incredibly rude and without any consideration for the OP. Calling someone's concern for their pets wellbeing a "fiasco" on a forum that is for asking questions is just about the most ridiculous thing ive read today, probably alongside one claiming to 'have a little bit of OCD on occasion' - an often debilitating mental health condition, that one doesn't just 'have a little bit of on occasion' not to mention the sheer ignorance it must take to so blatantly ask someone on a forum, who you dont know, if they have a mental illness. 

Perhaps read your post, twice, or maybe three or four times, and then put yourself at the receiving end, before posting it.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

The nose doesn't touch the sides, I think its where she stretches out in photos it looks like it does, because I was sitting in front of her and her nose definitely didn't touch, but in the photo even to me it looks like the nose is touching the sides.

When I first got her she already had a bit of extra fat on limbs (which is why I thought she was okay now until the vet said something). She has always built up weight so fast and never stable out. So to have it stable - although she is still overweight - is a brilliant thing to me.
The breeder had another older hog only a couple month older not that much older but they were only just not totally obese - I only really know that now because of the information I now know. 
Holly was 500g by the time she was 4 months, and she looked a bit overweight, but I think she may have been a bit young to already be that high which is why she looked a bit overweight. But maybe not I don't really know enough.

Her cage is all lose bedding, I use dust extracted animal safe shredded cardboard, I hide her insects around it. Theres no room with her litter tary with wheel in, two hides, and bridge (that she also likes going under as well as over) to fit another tray for foraging anything. Its not that the viv is small, but the litter tray is fairly big, and the hides are fairly big too, I'd have to to lose a hide to get another tray in, and Holly likes having her two hides, probably more than she would like a foraging tray especially as she forage through the whole viv.
I dont really want to have her biscuit all over the viv though as it means I can get rid of it as easy and then it sits in the viv for a week, I dont really have the time to change her whole viv more than once a week, it takes me an hour.

The exercise I'm working on really hard.
I have a small space not a lot bigger probably only just bigger than her viv in my room which I could try blocking off areas and getting her used to it slowly.
We also go away over new year for a week and they have LOADS more space in the room I'm staying in, that they said I can set up the play pen permanently for the stay which will be able to be a lot bigger (though she will be in a zoozone 2 which is smaller than her viv) but she did fine last year running around their floor (I think she likes it because its heated and not cold like ours) so it wont be much different except that it will be enclosed and safer this time where it wasn't last time.
Then in the new year when we get back my mum has promised to help me move bits around so that I have more floor space I can permanently set up a nice play area for her which will be bigger than the viv as big as I can get it without it getting in the way. And then I'm going to make sure my room is warm enough for her all the time, and get a thermometer at ground level to monitor the play pen temps to make sure its 25-26 where she likes it.
I'm also going to do some pleading and maybe begging (depending how far I get) to my mum to see if I can use the hallway if I cover it so Holly can't do anything on the carpet - she is also pretty good at only going in her litter but my mum doesn't believe me.



y2jdmbfan said:


> I think you are being way too worried about the little things with this hedgehog. Hedgehogs only need to be eating a good quality cat kibble. You have it broken down so much you are making it way harder than it should be. You fiasco with the pee color was a little over the top as well. Are you OCD by any chance? I tend to have a bit of it as well on occasion, so I can understand that. The hog is definitely overweight. Change to a low fat high quality kibble and limit to 1-2 tablespoons a night.
> 
> Sent from my SM-F900U using Tapatalk


You don't even know me. Its not your place nor is it even be your business to ask me if I'm OCD. I didnt come on here to asked about a mental health issue. I came on for more help with my hedgehog.

As EMC has said Hedgehogs are insectivores and their sole diet should never be biscuit, ever! The need a verity of insects and a verity of other foods.

I weigh the biscuit for a reason. 1-2 tablespoons (which weighed in at 20g and actually found out she was eating like 14-17g of biscuit and wasn't even - still isn't- active enough to eat that much biscuit), of a low fat (11%) with loads of carbs (because basically all low fat foods contain loads of carbs high quality or not) biscuit mix, and low fat 14 insects daily, when she got obese in the first place.

This current diet I mentioned at the start, is what got her to loose that 100g in 6 months, and got her stabled alright still over weight but its the first time in her life her weight has ever been stable! I want to go forwards, get her to a better weight so she isn't overweight anymore.

So changing back to what she was on in the first place (changing to what you said) is just going backwards and will only end up with her being obese again, and I don't want that.

I have not broken it down to be way harder that it is. I only put the weights of things because I know they are important if I'm going to ask for help with the diet, people need to know who much and of what your giving/they are eating to be able to help you with it.
As EMC said if I hadn't put them she would have asked for them anyway.

"You fiasco with the pee color was a little over the top as well" - maybe its over the top to you, but a sudden change in urine is not normal! It never will be. I have seen loads of owners worry about a change in urine colour. Its a normal thing. People tend to worry more when theres blood, there is no blood in hers which helps me not worry as much. 
Sure okay it might be nothing. But even the vet said it seems a bit weird for it to be normal pigment changes as its never happened before in her whole life and has suddenly started to keep changing, she said its far better to have it checked than just assume its nothing.
The vet also found it helpful that I break down what she eats and know how much she is eating because it helps to see if it is a diet related problem.
I would rather have it checked and know its nothing than ignore it. I keep a log of it because again it helps the vet.
The fact that the vet mentioned her weight and said that urine colour changes like she has can be linked to being overweight obviously she wanted me to see it but It took a few days to actually think it over a lot before I had to ask because it was bugging me.

Nothing you said was helpful, and I actually found it a bit rude.
I didn't have to explain anything to you but I did, because if your going to judge me, then I'm going to set your facts straight.

I did not come here to be judged, asked about a mental health issue, told I'm over worrying and being over the top about my pets health and weight, by someone who doesn't even know me. I came for help. If I wanted to be judged I would have gone to a facebook group!

I think you need to re read and think more before you post something. If you can't be nice or helpful then don't say anything at all.


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## y2jdmbfan (Oct 1, 2019)

I’d like to apologize, I didn’t mean for the post to be demeaning, was just trying to help, but I see how it looks like the opposite. I tried to edit and delete, but I was unable.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

y2jdmbfan said:


> I'd like to apologize, I didn't mean for the post to be demeaning, was just trying to help, but I see how it looks like the opposite. I tried to edit and delete, but I was unable.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Its okay 
Just for you to know, you cant edit them after like 10 mins of posting and you cant delete them at all - only admin can and they dont tend to.
Thats why its important to be very careful about how you word things on here because once its there its there and you cant change that.
Not in a mean, I do it all the time, always read what you type again and then think about what it look like if you was on the receiving end of it and how it can come across to others before you post it so you have the chance to re word it and make it come across better.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Holly is a little nightmare!

So the last week she has taken to eating all 10g of food AND whatever added alternatives I give! AND she has been less active!
She was doing so well too!

The 1st December she was 600g
The 8th December was 588g
That was a great a nice healthy 12g drop - she had a bit more exercise and was eating her normal amount!
Tonight the 16th December she weighed in at 608g thats a 20g gain from last week!

Every day this week she has eaten 8-10g of her biscuit, plus the 5g of meat both days. She didn't have her egg like normal as I didn't realise I had non left. But maybe its a good thing she missed it this week. 

I feel like I'm going round in circles!

Anyway so this was just to vent about it so people you can ignore it haha.
I sorted it just really needed somewhere to vent its all good I think.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Update on Holly for anyone who cares

So my plan after her eating way more! Was to reduce her biscuit to 8g and leave everything else the same.
By changing the amount I give because I work the percentages out based on the amount I feed its changed all that too
So the mix is now 34.8% Protein, 12.5% fat and 63% animal protein.

So I changed it on Monday 17th December.
So that week she had 8g of biscuit daily, her 14 insects, the two days of 5-6g of her meat and meat with veg plus her 6-7g of egg and 7g wet food 
I then weighed her on the Sunday 22 December and she was 585g

Then the next week, she had her 8g every day except the 25th, on the 25th she had 19g of christmas dinner (mostly meat with a little veg) and I cut out the other extras because she was doing well with her weight! She also had her normal 14 insects.
So I weighed her on the Sunday 29th December she was 593g

From the night of the 27th to the morning of the 3rd we was away.
Her heating was up higher than normal the first night and she ran 2 hours, normally the max she runs is 1 hour. 
From the night of the 26th to the night of the 2nd she had an hour and half to 2 hours out in a play pen as well as all her running.

So from the Sunday I weighed she had her 8g biscuit mix, 14 insects daily, her normal 5-6g or meat and meat with veg, 7g wet food and 6-7g egg. 
I weighed her on sunday the 5th January and she weighed 575g!

So when we got home I upped her enclosure temp to keep her activity up, she has only had 1 hour of running around in her playpen because that's all I can give her at the moment. But I'm hoping its working to keep this weight at a good rate!


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