# Insect questions



## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

Are freeze dried grasshoppers or crickets as bad as mealworms? I'm looking for an alternative to live mealworms. Superworms scare the crap out of me. Crickets are a pain to catch and feed and I can't find live grasshoppers anywhere. Penny didn't like the canned version of grasshoppers. 

Or does anyone have a website where I can order live buggies from?

Also are the beetles from mealworms as fatty as the worm themselves or are those a better addition to their diet? I can start a mealworm colony. 

As I'm moving into a more raw feeding, I'm adding new proteins. Penny likes most bugs I feed to her and chicken baby food at the moment. That's all I've tried so far. The thing is as insectivores, I want to give them access to different insects.


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## AlexLovesOlive (Jul 7, 2014)

get some dubia roaches! Wayy less fat, healthier AND they don't die for months, can't climb or fly, and are pretty slow!!! They are a little expensive but have a lot of protein and less than half the fat of mealies. Also I am pretty sure ALL freeze dried bugs are bad.


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## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

DesireeM81 said:


> Or does anyone have a website where I can order live buggies from?


There is a ton of different live bugs on eBay for sale at good prices.Just make sure you order from someone with good feedback. So you don't get deaders. I just ordered 1,100 meal worms for $21.00 because I pay $5 for a 15 count where I live.
Now I just need to figure out what to do with 1100 worms. My girlfriend will probably punch me in the face when she sees them in our fridge.:lol:


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

There's lots of websites as well! http://www.rainbowmealworms.net/ http://www.nyworms.com/ http://theroachguy.com/

I need to go back and look...I had a link for a site that sold insects for human consumption. A lot had added flavorings, but they have a huge variety. If I can find the site again, I think I may message the owners or whoever runs it and ask if it'd be possible to get the flavored ones just plain roasted with no flavorings & explain why. I think it'd be an excellent way to get a larger variety of insects!

You can also check out reptile forums and see which sites people use and recommend. They order online far more often than hedgie owners, so have more experience with which companies are nice to work with, which have the best (and cheapest) insects, etc.

Edit: Forgot I was going to mention, for crickets, I found they were easiest to deal with by letting them hang out in a container for a night or two to gutload, then stick the whole container in the freezer (so make sure it's small enough for that!), and freeze them overnight. The next day you can take them out of the gut-loading container and put them in a plastic container for keeping. I used them to hide around Lily's cage for hide-and-treat games, which she loved. They thawed very quickly and would get gross if left for a long time, but Lily never left them long enough for that. :lol:


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

Thank you everyone! I can order from the sites which would be awesome!!

Alex, soooo uh, I'm totally terrified of beetles of any variety. I don't know why. I can handle spiders like they are nothing but bring a beetle around me and I flip. I was going to see how I do with the colony of mealworms first since they turn into beetles and then try roaches. Not that I can find them here anyway! Maybe if I see them I can give them a try. I didn't like touching mealworms at first but now I have no problem with it. Maybe this will be a good way to get over my fear. 

Kelsey, thank you for the tip on crickets. The store I buy them from gutloads them for me. They get apples and carrots. So I can just bring them home and freeze them. 

:lol: I saw the ones on ebay but I wasn't sure if those would be safe. Time to do some shopping!


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## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

The "rainbowmealworms.net" that Kelsey suggested is where I ordered from. It was just thier eBay store. They say they have 57 years experience.

It's funny you say that, I didn't know if it was safe either lol "getting bugs of eBay" ... It doesnt even sound right. But after looking around a bit, it seem most of the bugs forsale are from people that sell online and just found they way to ebay for more business.
So I hope their G2G!


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## gracefulchaos01 (Mar 19, 2014)

Ahh. Live food. I guess I should start moving in that direction. Slowly. I got Sebastian live crickets on a couple of occasions but she completely ignored them both times. The first time I chalked up to advanced pregnancy. But the second time I figured she just had no interest. She likes the canned ones though as long as they are well smashed. ~shudder~


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## AlexLovesOlive (Jul 7, 2014)

Desiree I don't touch the worms and I Do have a colony!! I don't want Olive to bite my fingers which she would if there were any trace of meal worms on them. I got these tiny tongs that you buy in the lizard part of the petstore they are awesome.


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## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

I lay mealworms and wax worms on a lid with a lip and pop them into the freezer. After they are frozen, about 30 minutes, I transfer them to a plastic container in the freezer. We call them "wormsicles" and LuLu prefers them to live worms. If they go into her food dish, each worm gets a drop or two of olive oil or coconut oil dropped on top for Lu's skin. If they are fed during bonding time, they are allowed to thaw first and fed without the oil. Since these worms are simply frozen, not freeze-dried (meaning the moisture has not been removed during the process) they do not really pose a constipation issue, and including a drop of oil helps to ease things along anyway  A couple drops of olive oil onto a live worm will also incapacitate it in a dish, and pretty much keep it from wandering off.

Another benefit to oiling your worms, aside from giving your hedgehog amazing skin, is training him/her to associate olive oil with yummy treats, so you can encourage trying new things by putting a drop of oil on it.


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

I'll touch the worms, it's the beetle I mind. LOL. I'm just using regular tweezers at the moment. I'll have to keep an eye out for the made for bugs ones. :lol:

I don't allow them to eat from my fingers either. I used to feed Winter from my palm when he was little because he just couldn't figure out where they were but he's gotten better now. 

I bought the two of them some pinky mice, some more mealworms, and some red wigglers to try. Neither of them were interested in the wigglers I tried so I will cut it in half and try again tonight. Will probably try to pinky mice in a few days to make sure they have no reaction to worms.


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## AlexLovesOlive (Jul 7, 2014)

OMG MICE!!! WHY?!?!?!?! ew. poor baby mice. The pet stores have SUPER long tongs and regular size ones.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Pinkies are a natural prey item for hedgehogs - they would likely eat the young of small rodents in the wild, as well as eggs & nestlings of ground birds.


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## AlexLovesOlive (Jul 7, 2014)

NOPE no way Jose. No baby mousies for Olive.... poor baby mousies...


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## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Alex, the mice are dead before they are fed. You DO know where meat comes from, right?


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

:lol: Oh jeeze. So I kind of forget that some people are squeamish about feeding stuff like that. I had a snake while I was growing up and she ate live food all the time. Sometimes if she wasn't hungry I would have to hold on to the mice or rats before I could feed it to her. Never bothered me a bit. I've also fed my ferrets live food as well, mostly mice. Sometimes if I could it find they would have raw rabbit too. (The rabbit was frozen and normally just a leg)

I am trying to get as close as I can to their natural diet. I'll be adding in rabbit based kibble, raw bites of duck (I hope), as many insects as I can possibly keep and pinky mice. Let's hope they all agree to this too. :roll:


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## AlexLovesOlive (Jul 7, 2014)

I am a vegetarian and have been since I was born.


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## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

I respect that. I could be a vegetarian too, if it weren't for bacon  But that should not influence what you feed your animals if they are not herbivores. Do you have any idea what is in the kibble you feed?


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## AlexLovesOlive (Jul 7, 2014)

Yeah I do I wish there was a way to feed her responsibly sourced kibble but there isn't. All her snacks are responsibly raised though, I get her eggs from a local farmer, I have my own meal worm colony, and rabbit from a local farmer too... All real free range...Not that horrible fake free range that they do just to put it on the package. I'm pretty lucky to live in the middle of nowhere and there are lots of farms.


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## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

DesireeM81 said:


> I bought the two of them some pinky mice, some more mealworms, and some red wigglers to try. Neither of them were interested in the wigglers I tried so I will cut it in half and try again tonight. Will probably try to pinky mice in a few days to make sure they have no reaction to worms.


Are the pinkys live or frozen? I assume frozen since your waiting a few days to feed.
Did you try the red wigglers again, cut in half?? 
There's a store right next to me that sells them for bait. I always see them and wish they were mealworms.lol. I didnt know if I could feed those and never looked into it.


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## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

I personally would not feed worms from a bait shop because you just never know what's in them. They could be full of parasites or toxins. Best to stay with worms and insects raised specifically for pet consumption.


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

The ones I bought are for consumption. Neither of my hogs enjoyed them and Penny made the grossest face at it so I might just throw them in my garden and call it a no go. 

The mice were frozen. If they do enjoy them, I will start buying live ones the day they get them since I prefer live feeding with any animal. I'm not sure how to go about feeding them the mice though. I'll have to figure that out.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Can I ask why you prefer live feeding? I've always seen it as cruel and unnecessary, and though I know it wouldn't really be a concern with pinkies, I know it can be dangerous for reptiles that are fed adult mice & rats.


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## lilsurfergrlsp (Dec 13, 2013)

I want a snake so bad, but I know I'm going to have to get over the live feeding part. I was excited to learn that you could feed snakes frozen feeder mice, but even that's a little sad to think about. I'm not so squeamish when it comes to handling bugs so I think the mice won't be a problem. I just wish they weren't so cute! However, a friend of mine has a ball python that won't touch frozen mice and rats, and will only eat them live. So I guess when it comes to the nutrition of your pets, there are some things you have to sacrifice.


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## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

CoffeeKat said:


> I personally would not feed worms from a bait shop because you just never know what's in them. They could be full of parasites or toxins. Best to stay with worms and insects raised specifically for pet consumption.


That's what I started thinking after I posted. I won't buy those.


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

lilsurfergrlsp said:


> However, a friend of mine has a ball python that won't touch frozen mice and rats, and will only eat them live.


Kelsey, the above quote is the main reason I had to do live with my snake. She would not touch the frozen stuff. As for live, I think, and I may be wrong, that is healthier. The dead can rot and cause issues while live if eaten in a timely matter, will be fresher. I was aware of the risks with live feeding my snake and kept an eye on her but she never seemed to have a problem catching her food and eating it.

I will do the same with hedgehogs if I feed them live. As you said the pinky mice I doubt can do any damage.

It's been a while since I have had a reptile so I'm not sure if opinions have changed on live feeding vs frozen. Things do happen to change so fast.

lilsurfergrlsp, if you have a problem with live feeding, you can always find a snake that has been eating frozen/prekilled food since hatching. When I got my girl, I knew she was being fed live and I just continued with that. Some breeders out there advocate frozen feeding so it shouldn't be to hard to find one that will comfortable with it. :grin:


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## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Ran across an OP on a Facebook forum who said she would put live pinkies, small snakes and lizards, and day-old chicks in the bathtub with her hedgie every now and then, then shut the door and leave. This hedgehog, she said, lived to be 9 years old. The only reason I don't do something like this is because I don't want to see the carnivorous side to my sweet baby Lu....so far, her tiny teef are cute and I want to keep that mental image, not replace it with sharp pointy teeth ripping the live flesh of baby animals 
(That last comment was not meant as a criticism, btw)


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## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

In my eyes it's a more natural approach to feed live pinkies instead of frozen.I would "assume" the frozen start the decaying process after left uneaten for 2 hours or so. Like desiree said, It should be heathyier live but I'm not sure either.

I personally wouldn't feed anything bigger like a mouse. All it takes is a little bite to start causing serious issues. I've just seen it with my brothers reptiles over the years.

That's just my personal opinion, coming from a guy that will never own a snake or feed a live pinky to anything, even though it's natural as you get.


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

Oh, man. Day old chicks would be a good option too. I might not try anything bigger because of the risk but these would be good treats. :-? I'm a weird momma.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

As far as I've seen, in the US the debate on live vs. frozen is still a pretty volatile debate. There are reptiles that won't eat frozen, I know, and would rather starve themselves. In the UK (and possibly other countries), live feeding is actually illegal, due to being seen as cruel & inhumane. The exception is if the snake or reptile will actually starve itself to death rather than go for a frozen mouse. I like that approach. No reason to unnecessarily feed a live animal of the predator will happily take a pre-killed animal, but if it's necessary for the health of the predator, exceptions can be made, as long as extreme precautions are taken for the safety of the animals and to minimize suffering of the prey.

As far as I know, there's no health reasons not to feed frozen. If you're obtaining the animal from a reputable store or supply company, it won't have been frozen for very long. Yes, freezing can lower the nutrition of the food, but generally over a longer period of time. Even if a frozen mouse were left sitting in a hedgehog cage for a couple hours, I highly doubt it would get warm enough in that time to start causing issues. And from what I've heard of hedgehogs getting food like this, they don't leave it that long anyway - they usually eat their raw meat, whole prey, etc. first thing. I look at it like when I gave Lily frozen crickets. I put them in her cage right out of the freezer, so they were still frozen. They did start to thaw quickly, but she went for the first thing. So I never had an issue of them getting too warm or smelling, etc. 

I know some people view live feeding as more natural. I disagree with this too, as the animals are out of a natural setting. Everything is weighted in the predator's favor, and the prey has no room for flight - which leaves the fight response, which leads to possible injuries on the predator's part. I know there are precautions you can take to minimize the risks, and that for some animals, they do kill quickly and cleanly. But there are many more animals that don't, or people that don't know what they're doing, and that's where things become messy, cruel, and dangerous for both animals. I also disagree that it's worth the mental stimulation for the predator, which can be easily replicated with other activities that don't involve suffering on the part of the prey.

This all said (and I'm sorry if I've repeated anything that you guys know - rambling on a bit for the benefit of anyone who may be reading without much knowledge on the topic), obviously live feeding is not illegal in the US, and I can't tell anyone what to do. I will say though, that given many, many experienced raw feeders in my Facebook group have healthy animals that are given pre-killed frozen meat, that I highly doubt there's enough nutritional or mental stimulation benefits from live feeding that can't be replicated in other ways to justify it unless the animal will starve itself otherwise.

I know this hasn't even been mentioned by anyone here yet, and I don't mean it against anyone in the discussion, just it's made me think that this is something to be considered & addressed before there's an issue. But I think I'll probably discuss with the other admins as far as whether videos of live feeding would be allowed on the forum. I know my friend's ferret forum allows it. My Facebook raw feeding group, on the other hand, does not allow pictures or videos, and does not encourage or condone live feeding. I know people have posted videos of hedgehogs being fed a thawed frozen pinky, which I'm comfortable with if very clear warnings are included for those not comfortable with it. But I have a feeling that any live feeding pictures or videos will not be allowed, just as forewarning. But I'll discuss it with the others and the decision will be added to the Raw/Natural Diet sticky in the Nutrition forum. 

(Again, I don't mean this against anyone in the discussion or to make you feel vilified. I know this is a very controversial topic, and I feel rather strongly on it, and hope to educate people on it if they haven't come across the topic before. Raw diets & this kind of feeding is very new to the forum, so it's not something that's come up as whether we'll take a stance or allow certain things, so I'm glad that it's come up this way before someone has actually posted anything.)

Edit: Sorry, I realized another point. Keep in mind that hedgehogs do have small mouths and even pinkies tend to be large compared to their mouth. Some animals are able to quickly kill a prey animal with minimal pain (such as a ferret delivering a bite to the neck). I don't know that hedgehogs have that kind of instinct, and I would be very hesitant to test it out. Hedgehogs generally have to chew a bit and I could see that resulting in a very drawn-out, painful death for the prey. If someone were hesitant about feeding frozen due to the possible slight impacts to nutrition, I would suggest buying the animal live, then dispatching it yourself before feeding. At least you know you could make the death quick and painless, versus how your hedgehog (or other animal) may handle the act. I know there's a circle of life and all of that, but when humans are in charge of the situation, I believe we have a responsibility to keep things as humane as possible.

(And now I'll shut up, sorry for such a long post. :lol


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

No worries about the long post. I like being able to discuss points of views especially when it comes to our little guys, scaly, prickly or furry! 

You are right and I did not think of them being able to quickly kill their prey quickly. It's hard to find a good supplier for live food in such a small town. I may stick with frozen just for that reason. 

However, with the frozen food, it is supposed to be thawed before being given to any animal. So while crickets which thaw fast and can be eaten in a few chews, a pinkie mouse would have to be thawed to allow easy access to it. 

I agree with you. While I have no problem feeding my little ones raw food, there is no reason to post a video about it on here. I doubt they would let me get a good video anyway. It will probably have to be dark for them to eat anything. 

As stated before, my main concern is to try and replicate their diet. I'm willing to give a few things a shot. I'm glad that cat food seems to be a good option and will always offer kibbles to my babies but if I can supplement their food to something more natural, I will feel as if I'm doing all I can to make sure they are healthy. :grin:


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## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

I totally agree with everything Kelsey has said, and appreciate this discussion because it gives me food for thought. Let me play devil's advocate for a moment and ask: as far as feeding live prey and the humane aspect, what is the difference between live pinkies and live insects and worms? I had not really identified this as an issue, but I believe now that subconsciously this entered my thoughts when I began freezing all of our mealworms, wax worms and crickets. The thought of anything being eaten alive gives me the creeps, whether it's a worm that looks like a maggot on steroids (wax worms) or a baby mouse which I find equally repulsive, I personally will not do it and I do not consider myself squeamish or a bleeding heart liberal. It probably goes back to my lifelong fear of being eaten by a shark, which means there will never be a cruise in my future and I will simply stay in Kansas (don't even mention Sharknado!)


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## lilsurfergrlsp (Dec 13, 2013)

Desiree - thanks for the suggestion! Yeah, I think I'll just hate watching a little mouse get devoured; I think just the noises alone would make me cry haha I just love all animals. I even feel bad for the little mealworms that I feed to Tansy. But finding a snake that's used to frozen is a great idea! 

Lilysmommy - I agree 100% with your points about how feeding live is a little unnecessary, though I agree that there are circumstances where it's also necessary to feed live. I always found it a little weird that people will drop a live rat into a snake's enclosure and call it "natural" - plus I'd be scared that the snake would get injuries from the prey! But thanks for sharing your thoughts - it's always great to learn something new! In a weird way, it's kind of good there are such debates about the proper nutrition requirements of our pets, because it shows how devoted owners are to their pets and wanting to help them live long, healthy lives!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Whew...I'm glad I didn't upset anyone! :lol: That's a good point, Desiree, I forgot that it'd likely take a pinky a bit longer to thaw out than a cricket. Will have to figure out what a good thawing time is for them once I get around to having a hedgehog again and giving them a try!

And heh, CoffeeKat, I was actually thinking about that while I was typing & expecting someone to mention it, but my post was already so long, I skipped it for now. For me, I don't see as much of a problem with insects because a) ...bear with me, I don't know how to explain what I'm trying to say here :lol: But they don't seem to have as high of a cognitive thinking level as more advanced animals, if that makes sense? I still don't agree with doing things like pulling the back legs off live crickets to make them easier to catch or anything like that, though. and b) they're (for the most part) smaller than a pinky mouse, so it would be a quicker death when the hedgehog chews them up. I do like the idea of freezing insects before feeding too though. I also like the idea of roasted insects, though I'm not sure if that's something where you should freeze first (which seems like a less horrifying death than roasting alive, though maybe that's just personal preference? Good lord, this discussion is getting a bit morbid, my apologies!).

And I agree, lilsurfer.  Trust me, I'm tickled pink that all of you guys are as interested as I am in a more natural diet for hedgehogs and including some of the "stranger" things like whole prey and stuff. Everyone knows by now that this is a huge interest of mine and I love that you guys are interested in discussing this kind of thing too.


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## gracefulchaos01 (Mar 19, 2014)

Morbid? A bit. But any honest discussion about meat based food is going to be morbid. Carrots now...  unless you are a Tool fan, carrots are great. 

Thank all of you for the lively and thoughtful conversation I just read. I love some of the ideas. I am horrified by some of the ideas. But all of the ideas are worth reading. Worth consideration. 
I will be putting much thought into the entire concept.


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