# poop and force feeding



## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

OK, so one of my hedgies has been sick. He stopped eating and drinking and he has lost substantially more weight than I noticed. I didn't even know he was sick until one day he wobbled over and collapsed. I thought it was the first signs of WHS, but when I picked him up, I noticed signs of going into hibernation. So I immediately warmed him up, turned up the temp two degrees higher, and started force feeding him.

To make a quick note of his health, I noticed he had mites, and my vet also found an ear infection that she attended to.

Now, I have been using my own formula of his cat food mix, meal worms, water, and *vanilla ensure* (obviously blended). He is currently at 341 g (he is up from four days ago) and needs to be up to 385-395 g. I have been a long time volunteer at our local wildlife center, and most of our small mammals (not insectivores) that require weight gain are dosed with ensure in their formulas. I decided just to supplement it with his staple diet foods, even though I understand the risks of dairy. For the last two days he has had strikingly green poop (not runny, but very wet?), he still won't eat on his own, he drinks by himself on occasion. There is no clear answer I have found yet about force-feeding a specific formula, so I was wondering what input I can get from you guys. Should I just drop the ensure? Do you think it's causing the poop or do you think it's more due to stress of illness and being force fed?


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

Oh, and I think I should mention that he is much more active than he was when this all started, but he still won't run on his wheel..., and his skin has cleared up and his eyes are much more alert.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

Has he seen a vet?


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

How many days did he stay without eating?

I suggest you call your vet (I'm assuming he's seen a vet for the mites/ear infection treatment) and get some cans of Hills A/D food for him. It's a high calory food for sick animals, and most animals love the taste so he might eat it by himself. If he doesn't, it's easy to syringe feed him that.


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## MoonBean (Feb 22, 2011)

We always used Nutri-Cal for our baby squirrels and raccoons that needed extra weight. No dairy and high calorie. Not sure if anyone here has ever used it on a hedgehog.

Info copied from 1-800-Pet-Meds

_Brand Name
Nutri-Cal (Tomlyn)
Active Ingredient(s):
(per 6 gm teaspoon) Vitamin E (5 IU), Vitamin B1 (1.7mg), Vitamin B2 (0.2 mg), Vitamin B6 ( 0.8 mg), Vitamin B12 (1.9 mcg), Folic Acid (0.2 mg), Niacin (1.9 mg), d-Pantothenic Acid (0.9 mg). Also contains Linoleic Acid, Linolenic Acid, EPA, DHA, Omega-6 and Omega-3 Fatty Acids.

What is this product used for:
Nutri-Cal is a high calorie palatable dietary supplement used to provide supplemental caloric and nutritional intake in dogs and cats. It is also used to provide an added source of energy in hunting and working dogs. Calorie content is 338 Cal/100g (20 Cal/6g)

Availability:
Nutri-Cal is a non-prescription (OTC) product.

How this product should be used:
For supplemental use when animal is eating properly give 1 and ½ teaspoonfuls per 10 lbs of body weight daily. When animal is not consuming full feed ration, give 3 teaspoonfuls (1 tablespoonful) per 10 lbs of body weight daily._

http://www.1800petmeds.com/Nutri+Cal-prod1340.html

Do any of our hedgie experts have any experience or input on this?


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## Hedgiepets (Aug 21, 2008)

Nutrical is a good option. I am using it right now with a sick hedgie. Yes, it is recommended by vet.


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

ok, first off yes he went to the vet. ear infection and the mites, both treated. Nothing else found in blood work, xrays, etc. as far as days not eating known are about a week. I've been feeding him ever since.

On nutrical, our wildlife center stopped using the formula and has moved on to fox valley day one, because we were having issues with nutrical. As for ensure, it goes into squirrel gruel (almond), duck mash and a few other adult formulas (vanilla). Since we decided to pull it, I didn't think it would have been a good idea to feed him. But if you have been successful with it, i'd try anything right now.


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

and I am on my way to get the a/d food right now. should I still suppliment it with other (syringe) foods?


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

ok, I went and got the little bugger some a/d cat food and I came back and he had nearly eaten all of his dish! I caught him in the act. lol. well thank goodness. I am still going to feed him this a/d until he beefs up but hopefully this is a continuing habit. I guess I will keep the nutri-cal on hand if need be. Thanks everybody. I will update if things change.


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## MoonBean (Feb 22, 2011)

Good news! I'm glad to hear he is eating. I'm sure he will be back to his happy hedgie self in no time. He's a lucky guy to have you to look out for him


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

Shrimp stopped eating again two days ago. It's strange because he is just as active as he was before all of happened, and he is now starting to fight me on the forcefeeding. His poop is a very dark (almost black in appearance) green, and mucous like. If you wipe it up, you can tell how green it is. He is going back to the vet tomorrow for a follow up. Should I request bloodwork and/or another diagnostic test? Anyone else have had this problem?


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

So I am going back to the vet yet again today. Yesterday apparently my normal vet wasn't seeing me? I thought she was there, and that was who my appointment was with. Anyways, this person wasn't very helpful and admitted that he didn't know much about the species, and his lack of knowledge led me nowhere and that nowhere cost me a lot of money. So back to the vet I go today.

Shrimp has lost about 15 g more, so he is now on A/D 100% of the time. I am now syringe feeding her every three hours instead of four. I have added ground meal worms and wax worms to the food, and I am sub q-ing fluids q2d.

Anyways with the green poop and unwillingness to eat, I do infact suspect a GI bacterial infection, or fatty liver disease. Wouldn't the blood test show alarm if there was something wrong with the liver though? No jaundice type pigmentation yet thank goodness, there's still a chance to figure this out.

I feel like I am neglecting my other pogs due to this illness, their care hasn't changed, it's just that I spend quite a few hours with Shrimp a day.

*Side questions:* Has anyone had any experience traveling on bike (not motorcycle) with hog in 'hand'? My van broke down this morning (yay, more problems!), but I am getting him there as best as I can. I live in Ohio, so I am looking at temps of 62 F today...

Also, I have pictures of shrimp, and her emaciated body. If anyone wants to see pictures of a hog fighting anorexia and dehydration, I have them. Maybe they will help someone in the future know that their hedgie is too skinny? -- the ) ( shaped body line. I think there should be a better, more precise compilation of health diagnostics and specific dieases somewhere on the internet about hedgies, for the owner, breeder, inexperienced veterinarian, etc. There are bits of info here and there, much of which you have to dig deep for, and a lot is misinformed and incorrect (internet wise). I have various vet books (I am pre-vet), such as _Ferrets, Rabbits, and Rodents: Clinical Medicine and Surgery_, but none are really hedgehog specific either, not to say that they lack information.

*NOTE AND APOLOGY* to clarify, Shrimp is female... I keep on referring to her as a 'him' on this thread I have noticed, I apparently am hairbrained when I am typing in frustration and distress. My apologies to Shrimp...


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## rivoli256 (Mar 1, 2009)

hope you have a better vet experience today...looking forward to an update. could very well be a GI infection...one of my little guys acted very much like this when he got giardia (where he got it i will never know! sigh). clostridium can be another common GI infection, which, being pre-vet & a hedgie owner, you may well know already. 

here is sending good vibes to you & Shrimp.


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

Just back from the vet. OK, well I didn't get an answer, not that I really expected one, but I did get what I wanted as far as care goes. They did not do any more blood tests today, and next week we might be looking at x-rays again. The doctor now heard a heart murmer, so we are concerned about heart disease. First things first though, I received the metro that I needed for Shrimp's GI. But I am now to feed her every two hours, and she (doc) wanted me to up his temps in the cage, but I am concerned, because it is already hitting 80 F. Her temp is 94.8!!!! Not good. Her weight is 321 g as of now. My biggest fear is that this is the second time we put her under, and the x-rays if needed, will be the third anesthesia course... don't want to think about it, because it might be necessary if this isn't working out.

So:
feeds--as many cc as she will take every two hours followed by water
sub-q--every other day
metronidazole benzoate--every 12 hours

I will keep you guys posted.


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

I haven't been to sleep yet, because I grow more and more worried about the looming heart murmur. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I have convinced myself to go back to the vet, but I am short on funds this week now due to the last visits. (college = broke) I am going to be begging on the phone tomorrow morning to cut the cost of the vet vist since I have been there twice in a row already... but I can't afford to wait any longer for results.


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

Update for those of you following.
Shrimp now has pneumonia and is receiving baytril and probiotics. She is fighting with me today during feedings, I don't blame her though. I've been messing with her every two hours. She gets about as much rest as I do. We can't confirm heart problems until the pneumonia clears up. Back for x-rays next week. I will continue to keep everyone updated.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

wow. i feel for both of you. jeez. hopefully, the end of the pneumonia will mean the end of the issues and both of you can get some sleep...thinking about you both and sending positive healing vibes...


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm keeping you both in my thoughts. I hope she starts feeling better soon.


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry that she's sick. And for your whole situation. I hope she gets better quickly, and you can both rest. I'll be thinking of you.


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

Today's weight is up 20 grams! We are still kicking strong and fierce. she hasn't been getting any worse, we're in this neutral state where everything is up in the air, but the fact that she is still semi-active and taking food is a promising thing


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

Oi fellow hedgie compadres! I am back with more news, and it isn't necessarily good. Shrimp has been on baytril for over a week (with metro) and her lungs have barely improved, and her body temp was less than 90 F today. The vet wants to wait another ten days before we turn to heart disease meds, because she wants to be completely sure that it isn't pneumonia. I say the first time I see clear fluid coming out of her nose is the when she is going to start getting drugs for the heart. I am really worried that IF it's her heart, she might not make it the next 10 days. It's a lot of fluid in her lungs... and I know that the heart meds will clear that up in about 2 days time (if it is the heart). As of this time, I have not noticed ANY liquid out of her nose, but she does lick them often. Any thoughts?

She still hasn't been moving much, but she is 100 times more alert, which still isn't good. She eats fine when syringe fed, she still won't eat or drink on her own, and she is getting about 40 cc of food a day. We are down to 5cc feedings 8 times a day. She is now only getting water through syringe. She has gained a total of 51 g, and is well hydrated. She still has labored breathing.


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

And we rushed her to the vet last night to get a shot of lasix, and we are now adding lasix .17 cc b.i.d. p.o. into our med routine. I can't notice too much of a change yet, but I am really hoping for the best. We will be getting x-rays tomorrow again. 

Oh and she is peeing twice as much due to the diuretic. She did come out of her pouch to pee last night, which is hasn't happened since this has all started.


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## Ontarioandrew (Apr 1, 2011)

Any news?


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

Not really. I am taking her to another vet for a second opinion. There is another vet in town that I know takes care of the local hedgehog rescue's hedgies. It's just not very close at all, but at this point, if I can get some answers, I am willing. 

Shrimp still has liquid in her nose, although she licks it before it starts to discharge, but I can see it. We were at lasix three times a day, but we went down to two. My vet doesn't want to place her on enalapril... because she isn't sure it's congestive heart failure, at this point I disagree. All Shrimp does anymore is make nests and sleep. I feel so bad for her, but I want to fight a little longer. 
This reminds me exactly of the experience I have had with doctors over the last year. I have been in and out of the hospital with one disease or another. I am 25, and I've had my spleen, gall bladder, appendix, part of my pancreas and stomach wall removed in the last year. I had a total hysterectomy. I've been biopsied and tested to no end. My stomach looks like a map of Hawaii. I still have both of my kidneys, yay! They still can't figure out what is exactly wrong with me. Shrimp and I are going through **** together. Where's a Dr. House when you need him?

Once I have exhausted all my resources, I will consider the possibility that I may just be extending her life by pumping her with drug ****tails and food. I can tell by the labored breathing that she is in some sort of pain and discomfort, and I don't want to keep her in misery for my own benefit, but at the same time I am driven to help her kick this.

So really, no new news. Just waiting.


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## rivoli256 (Mar 1, 2009)

sending HUGE hugs to you both. definitely sounds like a 2nd opinion is in order. please keep us updated.


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## demojine (Jun 5, 2009)

Well, second vet opinion didn't help much, other than he suspects it is the later stages of CHF. I am having one last set of x-rays done on Monday. I can't remember if I mentioned that my vet told me to cut the syringe feedings in half, water as well, to see if she would eat anything. Well, no luck, she just lost more weight, so she went back on regular feedings. Her new home is now an incubator, because she can not maintain body temp.

If the x-rays are not clear this time. I have one of three options. 1. Go on enalapril, in hopes that it will do something, ANYTHING for her fluid filled lungs. 2. Continue to do what I am doing until the end of her days. 3. Bite the bullet, and choose euthanasia to give her final peace. 

Most likely, I am going to opt for 1. I know it's not something anyone likes discussing, but if it came down to it, what option would you choose? I fully believe she is only maintaining status quo because of the drugs, and I think her health condition is so far beyond any positive progression at this point. The events leading to this point in time has proved as such. She has stopped using her wheel all together. She has stopped eating and drinking on her own. She will not maintain weight without aid. She will not maintain hydration without aid. She is just a lethargic ball of stress. She leans into my hand with one side of her body when I feed her. She can't keep body temp. The dyspnea. Is it worth continuing this with the small, minute, minuscule miracle that she might be able to one day eat on her own, or will feel warm to the touch? Maybe she will survive another 6 months to a year this way, but will she only live those months in pain?
I hate to admit it, but it's true: I feel like I failed her, that I over looked some small symptom or area in an x-ray that will give an "aha!" moment, and if I end it now, that moment was only 3 seconds away from happening. She's young, and I feel horrible that she's going through this now, but I don't want to keep her alive suffering for my own benefit. Learning to accept, let go and obtain what I can from situations like these to further benefit my education are what will be the largest obstacles I must overcome in my journey through veterinary medicine.


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