# Time for a change?



## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

Ok I've had Shelby a little over 2 weeks now I was told she was a year and a half old.
She looks perfectly healthy to me (doesn't look under weight or over weight) 
But I think she need her food changed.
She is on Purina Cat Chow Indoor Formula. That's what she was on when I got her.
The previous owner said that she Rescued her and that she was on Purina Cat Chow Outdoor or something like that when she got her and she "changed her so the Poo would smell better"
Anyway I don't think it's as nutritious as she needs so my question is. (BTW I've read the cat food list on here just a little confused on where to start)

What would be the best kind to try her on that is not real expensive and that is easy to find and that is healthy and taste's good (to her) to try to change her to first? Then I can add another one later.
And what's the best way to change her over with out upsetting her little tummy?

Also I can't get her to eat ANY kind of treat!
She has ate 2 meal worms since I've had her (previous owner said she loved them) I've tried baby foods and fruit's and she just wants kibble.
Any suggestions?
Sorry it's a long post, Just want my little girl healthy

Thanks!!


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

sorry, but these foods arent cheap...lol if you are worries if she will eat them or not then i suggest going to petco to get the food. they have a return policy that allows you to return the unused portion within 30 days with reciept. Most of the foods on the list are $6-$10 for a 3# bag. You are right to try to get her off of the cat chow. just make sure to make the change very, very gradual and only introduce one new food at a time. that way if there is an adverse reaction then you know what is causing it. if you have any other questions you ca feel free to pm me.

As for treats, i would hold off on them until she is a little more adjusted to you.


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## Quills (Feb 18, 2009)

I also noticed you said that you're a little overwhelmed on where to start. I know that feeling. I usually wander from cat food aisle to cat food aisle muttering under my breath about protein, fat content, and by products. The sales associates generally give me a wide berth lol Those three areas are a main focus btw. Read back over the list and maybe jot down a few and take those shopping with you. As far as cost, you can can catch some of those foods on sale at Petco and I found Diamond (they make Chicken Soup for the Cat Lover's Soul) at a near by Orschelin a farm supply store for a little less money. 

Good luck shopping!


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks a lot
Yeah I know they are not really cheap. But if she doesn't like it the dog will probably eat it...lol he loves her cat chow :shock: he will eat anything almost.
I'll make a list to take shopping.
I know you shouldn't have artificial stuff in it and should have a good amount of protein not to much fat should have REAL meat and so on but how much is enough and how much is too much?


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

protein 30%-33% fat 9%-15% meat as a first ingedient, no by product, no non human grade fillers (brewers rice, brewers yeast,etc) preferably has brown rice or oats as carbohydrate source, try to stay away from corn, corn gluten meal (some companies try to be clever and call corn by its native american name "maize") try to stay away from white rice.....we actually feed a couple of foods that are over the 15% thresh hold, but our girls are runners that have a hard time keeping weight on. with your girl not running well yet, you may want to stay closer to the lower end of the fat spectrum.


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

That's very helpful!
Thanks a lot.
She like's to run in circles lol for like 2 or 3 hours but not every night. 
Like tonight, she's having a lazy night. Been curled up next to me on the bed asleep.


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## Quills (Feb 18, 2009)

With these foods you should find that you're able to pronounce the majority of the ingredients.  There is one thing to make sure to avoid is the avocado based cat food. Avocado is toxic for hedgies


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm glad you said that! 
Thanks!!
I will also make a "Toxic to Hedgies" list to take with me just to be on the safe side.


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

Already done for you here

http://hedgehogcentral.com/forums/viewt ... p?f=5&t=40

and here

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1978


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks I will write those down.!
(need to get printer to working)
When I get my printer working I will make a book for me to keep so hopefully I won't have to ask as many questions


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## Reaper (Aug 22, 2008)

Just remember the Dry Cat Food List changes periodically as manufacturers change formulas or new products are added to the list.


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

I will keep that in mind and check it often!
Thanks Reaper, what would we do without you?


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## hedgieluver (Feb 18, 2009)

probably go crazy, cuz we have no way of knowing what color mour hedgies are !!!!lol :lol:


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

Ok I got her some Iam's Healthy Naturals.
It's the best thing the places around here had!
she seems to like it! so that's good and it smells better then that other stuff.
And the Dog love's it :shock:


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

Actually, Iams is a very, very low quality food. What other brands were there? I'm sure there must have been something better...


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

I don't remember all the other name's that were there.. I'll try to write them down next time I go.
But we read all the bags there and the Iams had more meat, less by product and the required protein and fat that I was told was good for her.
The first 2 ingredients are meat's almost all the others first 2 ingredients were corn or corn meal or some other kind of corn.
would the Iams be good for a mix?
if so what else should I mix with it? :|


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

NONE of the Iams Healthy Naturals have 2 meats as the first ingredient...Chicken-BY-Product is not chicken...it is beaks, feathers, feet, guts and everything else that is not meat...even the bones....this is not healthy at all... and corn as a 3rd ingredient is horrible too. It is just a filler...The foods on the list cant be found at a discount store or grocery store, you either have to get them from a pet store or order them online.


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

Well it may not be the best but it's better then what she had.
At least the first ingredient is meat.
And the Pet store's in my town are small and don't have much to choose from. Unless you got a fish.
And getting them online right not is not an option at the moment.
And IMO it doesn't have to be on a list to be a good food. 
I'm not saying it's a great food but it's the best we can find at the moment.
When I find a better one I will get it.
Is there a certain one I should look for to mix in?


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

look, we all just want what is best for hedgies. The foods that are on reapers list are there because they are all natural, no fillers, no by products, no artificial colors, flavors or preservatives. they are all human grade ingredients and give them the best chance at the longest life possible. You can also check farm supply stores, some of them carry chicken soup for the cat lovers soul and diamond.....


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

I didn't mean to offend. I'm sorry if I did. :| 
I know Reaper's list is great. and great for hedgie's. I just meant that there could be some that are good (not great) that may not be on the list for whatever reason.
It was the best that the stores I'v been to had.
I didn't even think about a farm supply store.!
I don't think about buying pet food from there.
I will try to get there in a day or so and see if it's got something good.
Shelby is liking the Iams though so is it ok to put in a mix?
maybe a small amount?


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

i would say maybe a piece or two....but i would lean more towards making it a treat. like 3 or 4 pieces every other day in a separate dish.


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

Ok thanks.
Thats great! I found something I can use as a treat  
I got it mixed with that other stuff she was on for now until I can find something better.


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

you should have been doing a very slow transition anyway so it would limit upset stomach....you may have a few days of soft stools since their little bellies can be resistant to change.


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

Oh I am doing it slow.
She has not completly come off the old stuff yet. I just mix in a spoonfull into her bowl with the stuff she's use to so she don't get an upset tummy or anything.
Thanks


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## drpepperheather (Dec 19, 2008)

In my opinion, if it were my hedgehog and my only options were Purina Cat Chow or Iams Healthy Naturals, I would definitely opt for the IAMS. I just looked it up, and it does have Chicken as the first ingredient, as well as some fish oil and dried vegetables. And from a quick glance I didn't seen any artificial preservatives, flavors, or dyes (I could be wrong). Yes, it has by-products and corn as the second and third ingredients which is not ideal, and the fat content is at a minimum of 15% which is on the higher end, but the Purina Cat Chow has no real meat whatsoever (I'd compare it to cardboard). So, at least the IAMS is a step up from that.

So, my advice would be to stick with the just IAMS (with NO cat chow) until you can get a hold of a better quality food that is all natural, contains real meat or meat meal, and doesn't have any by-products or fillers like corn in the first 3-4 ingredients (preferably not at all). 

If you haven't already done so, just print out Reapers list and take it with you to the pet store. You should be able to ask the employees if they have any brands on the list, or at least know of any food that is all natural and contains no by-products or fillers, and if all else fails just hang out and read ingredient labels. And as everyone has already mentioned, you won't be able to find high-quality cat food at a grocery store. Try every pet store and feed store around, and someone is bound to have something...


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## Reaper (Aug 22, 2008)

I would suggest getting her off of the Iam's as well. It contains sodium bisulfate. I had no idea what sodium bisulfate was so I looked it up.

Sodium bisulfate is a harmful acid that can harm you if it is swallowed, breathed in, or touched. • Reviewer: Eric Perez, MD, Department of Emergency Medicine, St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital Center, New York, NY. Review provided by VeriMed Healthcare Network.

And here is the link on wikipedia. Anyone with some chemistry background can tell you how awful this stuff is. I wouldn't want to eat it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bisulfate


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## drpepperheather (Dec 19, 2008)

Reaper said:


> I would suggest getting her off of the Iam's as well. It contains sodium bisulfate. I had no idea what sodium bisulfate was so I looked it up.


Thanks for that info Reaper! I'm trying to learn all the "bad" stuff that companies can put in the food, but the list just seems to be never ending...it's like learning a foreign language!


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## Reaper (Aug 22, 2008)

Yes it is. Sodium bisulfate is a "by-product" of sulfuric acid or what is commonly called "battery acid". It is the acid used in the majority of all lead acid batteries found in cars, motorcycles, boats, etc. Really nasty stuff. Trying to keep up with the pet food industry chemists is a full time job for someone.


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## azyrios (Feb 2, 2009)

I found this interesting:

USES:
* Household cleaners, Sani-Flush, for example (roughly 45%)
* Silver pickling
* To reduce alkalinity and pH in swimming pools
* In pet foods[1]
* As a preservative for soil and water samples in analytical laboratory analysis


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Why ever would this be in a pet food?


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## azyrios (Feb 2, 2009)

This is an edited version of the information i presented earlier. It was brought to my attention more research needed to be done.

*Making NaHSO4*
Sodium Bisulfate is a molecule that is created one of two ways: the most cost effective way is to combine Table Salt and Sulfuric Acid (both cheap and readily available). By creating Sodium Bisulfate in this method Hydrochloric Acid is also produced and is sold to chemical companies to resell, thus making money back off of the purchase of the sulfuric acid. The second way is to use Sodium Hydroxide and Sulfuric Acid in a very precise stoichiometric measurements to create Sodium Bisulfate in Water, but this yields no byproducts that can be sold.

*About NaHSO4*
-Sodium bisulfate is acidic when in solution, and at 1M can produce a PH level of 1.4. Sulfuric acid on the other hand will produce a PH of just under 1 at 1 Molar.
-Sodium Bisulfate can be dissolved in water and ionizes almost completely.
-Sodium Bisulfate can be used to increase the PH level of a system.
-Castor&Pollox say "Sodium Bisulfate is included to help promote the proper urine pH needed to maintain a healthy urinary tract in cats."

It is defined by Answers.com as:


> (inorganic chemistry) NaHSO4 Colorless crystals, soluble in water; the aqueous solution is strongly acidic; decomposes at 315°C; used for flux to decompose minerals, as a disinfectant, and in dyeing and manufacture of magnesia, cements, perfumes, brick, and glue. Also known as niter cake; sodium acid sulfate.


*Menadione*
Menadione is a synthetic molecule used to promote the production of artificial Vitamin K in an organic creature. Menadion by itself has a chemical structure of C11H8O2 and is non-polar and will not dissolve in water. While Menadione is a very cheap form of vitamin K (known as K3) it does have some very serious side effects. Menadione is banned from use in humans as it is known to cause the following chronic health problems as taken from the MSDS sheet for Menadione.


> CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: 3 (Not classifiable for human.) by IARC.
> MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells.
> TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
> DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available.
> ...


*Menadion Sodium Bisulfate*
This is the chemical to be wary of. On an ingredient list, as stated by Susan Thixton (a 16 year researcher into bad pet foods):


> Some pet food ingredient lists will say 'menadione', some will say 'sodium bisulfate', and some will mention vitamin K3 in parenthesis -- and these are just a few of the possible variations you have to look for.


The scariest part is:


> There are no restrictions on the use of K3 as an animal grade component of food, and foods can even be classified as natural while they contain this ingredient.


Sodium Bisulfate is combined with Menadione in order to allow it to dissolve in water, which is a polar solution. Without the sodium bisulfate, menadione would not be practical to use in pet foods.

*Reasoning behind using K3*
Menadione Sodium Bisulfate is used as an artificial vitamin K. I assume the pet companies use the NaHS04 (Known as Vitamin K3) to boost the Vitamin K levels. Sodium Bisulfate is much cheaper than natural Vitamin K (Known as Vitamin K1)

Vitamin K deficiencies lead to blood clotting in the stomach and can cause intestinal problems. Doing a quick search vets use natural Vitamin K (K1) as a shot to help cats and dogs who have ingested rat poison which causes internal bleeding.

Pet companies then begin looking to add Vitamin K to their food in order to help prevent internal bleeding in cats and dogs and help to keep their intestines cleansed, but no where does is describe the recommended amount of Vitamin K needed in dogs or cats.

*Natural Vitamin K (K1)*
Natural Vitamin K (K1) Comes from leafy greens like lettuce, but these greens provide little other nutritional benefits and i assume it is to hard to extract the Vitamin K (K1).

A good source of Vitamin K (K1) for pet foods is found in alfalfa (which Mika feeds to her birthing mothers as it prevents internal bleeding) and kelp. It is much to expensive for many pet food companies to put fresh alfalfa into their foods or take the time to extract the K1, so they decided to use the VERY inexpensive K3, which can be produced one of two ways.

*Is Menadione Sodium Bisulfate in your Pet's Food?*
Chances are... NO
Partially because of Susan Thixton's pet food crusade Menadione was getting a bad rap, and companies began taking it out of their pet food. Some companies however hid it as Vitamin K (without specifying if it was natural or not) or just as Sodium Bisulfate.

The only way to be sure is to directly contact you pet food company and ask if they have Menadione or artificial vitamin K in their food. Foods to keep an eye on are ones that contain Sodium Bisulfate as it may be written as such to disguise the Menadione. If your pet food contains Sodium Bisulfate it is best to ask your pet food company what the use of the sodium bisulfate is for.

*Here is some more info:*

Sodium bisulfate is NaHSO4
Menadione Sodium Bisulfate is C11H9O5SNa and is arranged in a more aromatic fashion

*Menadione Sodium Bisulfate*

*Potential Acute Health Effects:* 
Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation
(lung irritant).
*Potential Chronic Health Effects:*
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: 3 (Not classifiable for human.) by IARC.
MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells.
TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available.
The substance is toxic to kidneys, lungs, liver, mucous membranes.
Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.

*Sodium Bisulfate*
*Potential Acute Health Effects:*
Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Hazardous in
case of skin contact (corrosive, permeator). The amount of tissue damage depends on length of contact. Eye
contact can result in corneal damage or blindness. Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.
Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing
and coughing. Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.
Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by
itching, scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering.
*Potential Chronic Health Effects:*
CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast.
TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.

From what more research i have done, the Sodium Bisulfate is added to the Menadione in order to make it water soluble.

Menadione on it's own is what triggers the production of vitamin K, the sodium bisulfate is just sued to allow it to disolve in water. Sodium Bisulfate by itself is not toxic, and does have a very acidic tendency, and in the right concentrations can be as acidic as sulfuric acid from which it is derived.

Menadione on its own has a chemical structure of C11H8O2 allowing the sodium bisulfate to drop an oxygen and latch onto the menadione group.

Now sodium bisulfate in itself is not hazardous, but Menadione Sodium Bisulfate and legally be placed in the ingredients list of a pet food as "Sodium Bisulfate" as that is a more common chemical name for the substance.


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## azyrios (Feb 2, 2009)

I am trying to post more info but it won't let me. So here are the links to the information i am trying to discuss:

More Info:

Effects of K3:
(http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione)

K3 in dog food:
(http://www.naturalnews.com/024244.html)

This explains the reaction that is most likely used to make Sodium Bisulfate:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bisulfate)

More Info on food:
(http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossar ... sodium.htm)

And one of my favorite sites for chemical ananlysis:
(http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLM4309)
(http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924604)


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## azyrios (Feb 2, 2009)

*CAT FOOD WITH MENADIONE SODIUM BISULFATE (K3)*
These foods contain Menadione (K3) and are not good to feed your pet.

*CAT FOOD WITH SODIUM BISULFATE (Possible K3)*
Food with Sodium Bisulfate may be okay for your pet. Please contact the pet company to see if they use any artificial vitamin K or Menadione before using.

*Chicken Soup for the Cat Lovers Soul 
(Only Adult Cat and Adult Cat Light Formula - Senior Cat Hairball does not contain NaHSO4)*
http://www.chickensoupforthepetloversso ... t_formula/
*Iams*
http://www.iams.com/iams/premium-pet-fo ... g-food.jsp

*CAT FOOD WITH SODIUM BISULFATE (NO K3)*
This food contains sodium bisulfate but does not contain menadione, and is safe for your pet.


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

azyrios said:


> Sorry for using three posts, but for some reason the forum won't let me edit anything, or use BBCode in my posts (If i do i get an error), so here it goes:
> 
> *CAT FOOD WITH SODIUM BISULFATE (K3)*
> 
> ...


To avoid confusion the only CSCLS with Sodium Bisulfate in it is the Adult Cat formula, And the Adult Cat Light formula...The Senior Cat Hairball Control seems fine.


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## Reaper (Aug 22, 2008)

I knew there was a reason I fed the senior formula. Now I know what it is. LOL


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## Shelbys Mom (Mar 27, 2009)

Oh thanks for the links those will be very useful!!!

It should be Illegal for them to put stuff like that in any pet foods!

Thanks for everyone's input It's all very useful.


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## azyrios (Feb 2, 2009)

i remembered a discussion that was held in a buddies chemistry lecture i sat in on. Reminded me that it was actually Vitamin K.

I also use the senior adult formula, but vex doens't like it anyway.


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## Toe (Jan 2, 2009)

I always take warnings about 'chemical' ingredients like this with a grain of salt (er, no pun intended).

In a nutshell, it's an acid, it's used to control the pH of the pet food (which is quite important for cats). Is it harmful? Well, it's probably safe to say that it can be.

But consider another acid I'm sure you're all familiar with, hydrochloric acid. Great for taking rust off of steel and skin off of your hands. You probably don't want to take a swig from a bottle of this stuff. Yet at the same time, it's abundant in your stomach, and plays a vital role in digestion.

The point is, quantity always matters. Even water can kill you if you drink too much, too fast (the excess water makes your brain swell up, pressing outward against your skull and killing you).

Granted, there's some acids that you should probably avoid altogether. Prussic acid, for example. Is sodium bisulfate like prussic acid, or more like ascorbic acid? I don't know.

One thing that does stand out to me, though, is how high it is on the ingredient list it is on those Chicken Soup varieties. I mean, it's listed ahead of kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, and parsley flakes. Those are 'food' ingredients, and not 'contains a trace of these minerals' ingredients. So either that's quite a bit of sodium bisulfate, or the amount of those 'food' ingredients is so small that you wonder why they bother putting them in at all. If it's just being used to correct the pH, they apparently have a lot of correcting to do from the rest of their ingredients. If I were in charge of formulating that cat food, I'd look at reducing/eliminating some of the more alkaline ingredients, rather than dumping a bunch of acid in to counteract them.


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

Just an update, Chicken Soup uses only sodium bisulfate, not menadione sodium bisulfate (the dangerous stuff). Plain sodium bisulfate is used, as Toe said, to regulate animal's urine pH levels.


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