# Weight issues



## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

*This is really long. I apologize in advance for that. I'm definitely appreciative of anyone who can share helpful advice though.*

So I have two hedgehogs that are overweight and I believe it's causing problems.

1) Harvey is a bit over two years old. He's always been a big boy, but I can see the fat pouches etc., and he's now over 900g. He used to be really active on his wheel, but now he hardly runs (I think. I'm not 100% sure he doesn't run a bit in the wee hours before dawn). He wheels a little bit when he first wakes up, mostly as sort of a toilet routine I think. Then I usually let him out on the balcony, where he'll wander around for a few minutes and then find somewhere to sleep for a couple hours. When I let him back inside, he just eats, drinks and goes back to sleep.

He's also been waking up later and later. He used to get up around 7pm. Then it was 9pm. The last couple days he hasn't gotten up until almost 10. This worries me. My girls on the other side of the room get up around 6pm. They can't wait to have their food! I don't know what to do to help him.

2) Ruby is 1.5 years and about 825g. Her physique takes after her dad (Harvey). She hardly runs either anymore. She shares a cage with her mom and they used to push eachother off the wheel (not aggresively), alternating wheeling throughout the night. When I'd walk by the cage she would run over to the side closest to me, and if I put my hand in the cage she'd try to climb up my arm to get outside the cage. She stopped doing that recently. Now when I put her outside the cage (to force her to run around a bit and get some exercise), she comes back to the cage and sometimes tries (unsuccesfully) to climb back _in_ the cage. Either that or she runs around a bit and then finds somewhere to sleep.

Ruby loves to eat, possibly too much. If she's sleeping and I pick her up, the first thing she does when I put her back in the cage is get some food. Every time. Even if she just ate. It's like a conditioned response. It didn't used to bother me when she was running too, but now that I'm worried about her weight and lack of exercise, it does bother me.

I've already been studying the forums on what to do when hedgies aren't running, and what to do about diet. Healthy food options are sparser over here in Thailand, but I'm getting some recommended foods (Natural Balance, Wellness) sent from the states so I can begin to switch them over.

Besides this, I'm not sure what to do. I feel like we're in a catch-22 where the fatter they get the less they run, and the less they run the fatter they get. I do let Ruby run around our condo several times a night before I go to bed to make her run, and she does run some, but then there are all those other hours where she's just alternating between lying down and eating. Interestingly, when I didn't feed her at her usual time this evening, after sitting there waiting for a while, she went on the wheel and ran a bit! It made me think she's just making herself lethargic with too much eating, and if she didn't eat so much she'd have more energy. I know people mostly recommend just giving hedgehogs as much food as they'll take, but sometimes I wonder whether I shouldn't be cutting her off....

Sorry this is so ridiculously long. I've been stressing about these issues for a while and felt like I had to give details of the situation.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

How are they with baths? That can be a decent form of exercise, if they would do it. 
Scattering food so they have to forage could help as well. 
Normally the standard advice is to limit treats because that is logical. However have you considered giving them a live cricket or two in an empty bath tub. Not disabling the cricket in any way and let your hedgehog really hunt. 
Also the standard answer is with change in behavior or drastic weight a trip the the vet is always advisable. You want to rule out any chemical imbalance or injury that may be a cause.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

What is the lighting schedule and what temperature is there cage kept at? Is there any new light getting in the room during the night?


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## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

twobytwopets said:


> How are they with baths? That can be a decent form of exercise, if they would do it.
> Scattering food so they have to forage could help as well.
> Normally the standard advice is to limit treats because that is logical. However have you considered giving them a live cricket or two in an empty bath tub. Not disabling the cricket in any way and let your hedgehog really hunt.
> Also the standard answer is with change in behavior or drastic weight a trip the the vet is always advisable. You want to rule out any chemical imbalance or injury that may be a cause.


They're ok with baths. I've wanted to experiment with swimming a couple times in the past, but it always scares me when they get water in their nose etc. I think in order to really do it I'd have to find something that I could put in one end of the tub that was higher up so they could rest.

Haven't done the crickets thing, but they run more than that just exploring the room when I let them out of the cage.

I have thought about the vet, but I don't have a vet that I trust. Honestly I get better informed info from this forum than from what I've gotten in past visits to the vet. I know that's bad. It kind of scares me for the inevitable time when I really need a vet.


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## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

nikki said:


> What is the lighting schedule and what temperature is there cage kept at? Is there any new light getting in the room during the night?


Temperature in the room is always between about 78-82 in this season. Lighting is totally natural: just ambient outside light during the day, and it gets dark here around 7pm right now. There are lights on in the room where they are though (which is our living room too) until I go to bed, usually around 11pm or so. I try to turn off as many lights as I can, but it's definitely not pitch dark in the room until I go to bed.

They've usually turned in for the day by about 5:30am, which is dawnish.


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## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

In addition to these weight/lethargy issues, I found two things on Harvey when I gave him a bath yesterday: one I believe is a callus? at first i thought it was something stuck to his foot, but then i realized it was attached. i tugged on it a little bit but was afraid to just yank it off.

the second is some kind of fungus maybe on his ear? i was able to get a decent picture of both. do either of these things look familiar to anyone?

i love these little guys, but jeez all the health problems/worries can be stressful!


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Its recommended to have a light schedule for hedgehogs to keep them active and to help prevent hibernation. It can be as easy as having a lamp by the cage that's on a timer. The light should be on for 12-14 hours then the cage should be dark. Since its in the living room you could cover it with a blanket to encourage him to come out earlier.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

I wonder if the foot sore is causing him to run on his wheel less.


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## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

nikki said:


> Its recommended to have a light schedule for hedgehogs to keep them active and to help prevent hibernation. It can be as easy as having a lamp by the cage that's on a timer. The light should be on for 12-14 hours then the cage should be dark. Since its in the living room you could cover it with a blanket to encourage him to come out earlier.


Thank you, Nikki. I've thought about doing something like this before. So far we've just gone with natural light, and he's never tried to hibernate, but perhaps it would help with keeping him more active.

Covering his cage with a blanket is something I've never done. It's very hot here in Thailand for most of the year, and I already have to leave the fan on for them most of the time. I'm afraid the blanket would make it hot/stuffy/oppressive in the cage, so I'm not sure that would work.

Speaking of being too hot, sometimes I wonder if the heat here doesn't make them less active. It's about 82 on average inside the apartment during this season, and in the hot season it's even hotter than this. I know this is above the ideal range, but short of leaving the air conditioning on 24 hrs a day, I'm not sure what else to do. (Actually, during the peak part of the hot season I do leave the aircon on for most of day because I worry about them.)


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Others from warm climates have confirmed their hedgehogs being less active during the hot season, so that sounds pretty normal. Hedgehogs are built to deal with heat and cope with it by being less active & eating less sometimes so they don't generate as much heat.

The pictures you posted, the ears look like it's just dirty build up, which is normal. You can help get it off by using vaseline, flaxseed or another safe plant oil (coconut, vitamin e, etc.) to rub his ears. It usually comes off after a few days of this. I'm not sure about the thing on his foot. Maybe someone else will have an idea on that...I would at least keep an eye on it to make sure it's not getting bigger & to see if it changes at all (color, starts bleeding, etc.).

If you decide to try swimming, they definitely need a shallow end where they can touch the bottom & rest, or they need an island they can easily climb onto where they can rest. Water in the nose is dangerous & can cause URIs, so I don't blame you for that making you nervous! You definitely want to avoid it and make sure they have the ability to take a break if they need it. The other thing is to NEVER leave them unattended, even if they have some place where they can take a break. It only takes a few seconds for them to drown, and you won't hear it. Don't look away from them, especially if they haven't taken a break in a bit. Swimming takes tons of energy & work from the muscles, and they can get worn out from it quickly. I think it's usually recommended to start with short periods & work your way up as they get used to it, as long as they're not distressed by it.

As far as food, I definitely second Twobytwo's idea of scattering the food. Don't have it all in one bowl - scatter their kibble around their cage or put it in several different bowls so they have to move around more to find it. IMO, I would actually increase low-fat treat options to help fill them up & allow them to eat less kibble, which tends to have high carbs from grains (which easily build weight). Things like crickets, roaches, other low-fat insects (no mealworms or waxworms), chicken and turkey for low-fat meats, and veggies. Veggies are carbs too, but can help fill them up more & make them eat less. I would avoid high sugar ones like peas & carrots, and try to use ones with lots of fiber & nutrients (dark greens, sweet potatoes, pumpkin, green beans, etc.).


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## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

Wow, thanks Kelsey. Lots of good info here! 

Harvey is very antisocial, so I anticipate having trouble rubbing his ear with oil, but I will try. I believe the callus thing fell off already (it was very close before).

I like the idea of using more treats and less kibble (provided it's the right kind of treats). For a while we were giving them something in addition to kibble every night, and I began to suspect this is what made them fat. We'd alternate corn, chicken, eggs and sometimes minced pork. Recently I stopped most of this, and it's been plain kibble most nights; sometimes a bit of scrambled eggs on top. 

Is corn bad? I know that when selecting a kibble we're not high on the corn products, so that made me wonder. But we used to give them corn like every other day. I'd boil an ear of it and then cut off some kernels and sprinkle it over the top of the kibble.

I'd love to feed them some of those healthier vegetables. Whether they'll eat them or not is another story...

Any suggestions on what could be put in the tub to make it shallower at one end? I can't think of anything that doesn't float!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I wouldn't use the corn or the pork. Pork is very high in fat, and corn is high in sugar & doesn't add a lot in terms of nutrients. It's also not as easy for carnivores/omnivores like dogs, cats, and hedgehogs to digest & make use of (especially compared to things like oatmeal and rice).

Chicken & eggs are both good in small amounts. If they're picky about the veggies, try different methods of offering them. Sometimes for hedgies that really love their meat, something like cooking the veggies together with some meat can give them a bit of the flavor & have hedgie eat veggies too. I know one person had success with that. Lily would eat any kind of baby food veggie (or fruit) that she wouldn't normally touch as long as there was meat mixed in. I started doing baby food mixes that had 1-2 jars of a meat (chicken or turkey) with 2-4 jars of veggies (usually 3-4 veggie types, if one jar had multiple veggies in it), and 1-2 jars of fruit. It looked disgusting all mixed up, but she loved it. :lol: You can make your own baby food by mashing/finely chopping/pureeing veggies (cook hard ones like sweet potatoes first). You can mix meat in with that too, and see if they're interested then.

Oh, I meant to add with the insect thing, next up on my research list (once I'm no longer sidetracked by researching bio-active topics :lol is putting together as complete of a nutritional analysis table for the invertebrates that I want to use in my hedgie's diet. So protein, fat, and fiber content, plus the calcium: phosphorus ratio. I'll probably post the chart on here when I get done, so you can check it when I'm done to see what other low-fat options there might be for insect/invertebrate-type treats.  I've read that soldier termites are very low fat, if you have access to them.

I think people have used heavy-ish food containers or something? Maybe you could use some kind of food storage container or something that has a lid, then place a rock or something heavy inside so that it'll weigh it down & keep it from moving. I honestly can't remember what else I've seen people mention! A shallow bucket might work too, if it's heavy enough to stay put. Whatever you use, just make sure that the top isn't too slippery, or cover it with a towel or something that's secured so that they can keep their grip & don't slide right back off.


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## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

Thanks again for this. I'm definitely interested in trying your baby food mixes--can you explain why you're using 'jars' as a measurement? I can't figure out whether it's just a way of showing the ratios or whether you mean you're buying jars of these vegetables fruit ahead of time (but then I'm confused about the meat).

After you've mixed it all together, does it keep well? Do you freeze it?

Thanks!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Oops, sorry! I bought actual jars of the foods from a store, they sell pureed food in jars for babies commercially here. So you can get little jars that may have only one type of vegetable or fruit pureed, or you can get ones that have multiple veggies/fruits mixed together, and they have meat flavors as well.  Like this - http://prod-cdn.thekrazycouponlady.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/1001029_015000004279_A_400.jpg

In terms of amounts when mixing together, I had probably half to three quarters of the mix being vegetables, and the rest would be meat & fruit (more meat than fruit, usually). I did freeze it after mixing, in ice cube trays, then I took the cubes out & stored them in plastic bags in the freezer. Each cube was 1 to 1.5 tablespoons. Lily got one cube a night, usually I had two mixes going (each with different meat, veggies, and fruit) and I would alternate mixes each night. Usually she would eat all of the mixture, then eat about 2/3 of her kibble or so.


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## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

Awesome, I see what you mean now. I definitely want to try that. 

Originally you were saying one could try these lower-fat foods as a way of getting them to fill up on that and thus cut down on kibble. So would you give the cube on its own first and then the kibble later, or would you just put them in the dish together? Does the frozen baby food cube just kind of gradually melt over the kibble, or do you wait for it to melt first before serving it?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I usually microwaved the cube for a few seconds, but you could also take it out of the freezer in the morning or afternoon & put it in the fridge to let it gradually thaw. I have a terrible memory, so microwaving was easier for me. :lol: I usually put the baby food in its own dish so that the kibble would stay dry & not get gross. I didn't have an issue feeding both at the same time though, since Lily would usually eat all of the mixture. But if he's reluctant to try it, you could offer that first for a few hours, then give him the kibble after & see if it helps! Everything with hedgies seems to be trial & error with how different they all are. :lol: I hope it helps him out though! You'll have to let me know how it goes.


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## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

Thanks, that all makes sense. And yes, hedgie care does seem to come down to trial and error much of the time 

Like the new profile pic too! Is that your new girl?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yup! That's my Bindi.


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## honeywhistle (Mar 29, 2014)

Very sweet looking


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