# Reasons behind the standard nutritional choices



## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Ok, so I've been reading on here for a while now, and my main focus has been in the area of nutrition as it is something I'm very particular and passionate about in regards to my other animals, and I wanted to make sure I deduced the very best choice for my new pet. I'm still in research mode and likely will be ongoing, as nutritional research is a hobby of mine that I do in my free time to relax. Lol.
But in regards to my present feeding regimen, we are in an experimental phase right now, that appears to be going very well (she likes almost everything I've offered so far except some vegetables, and hasn't had a single instance of runny poops) 

Anyways, my request for more info for my research: 

I have seen the "usual" cat food brand recommendations, and warnings on protein and fat levels where kibbles are concerned, but I've only been able to find pretty vague references to the reasons behind keeping these levels low, along the lines of "some have gotten sick" (but no specifics on the sickness) or references to kidney issues on using high end grain free cat kibbles. 
I don't see much reference at all on canned cat food, but lots on baby food. 
I've read about lots doing well with diets incorporating more fresh foods, cooked meats, fruits & vegetables.. 
I've also seen references to some giving higher quantities of bugs, but most say dont give many. 
i've seen quite a few references to some who are giving pinkies regularly, but then the consensus seems to be that raw meat is the worst thing ever. 
So, what I'm looking for now is specific reasons or data/examples about why these things are the standard. 
Because while knowing that nobody has done pet hedgehog focused nutritional studies so a lot of people are working from personal experiences with the limited things they have tried, I am leaning towards my own conclusions about a lot of these "standard facts and practices" based on my knowledge of cat food and some other species nutritional needs, which I am aware cant be directly equated but certain aspects I'm sure likely apply to more than one species for the same reasons. 
Anyways, I've done some searches but can't quite find the more detailed reason type answers I'm looking for, so if I could just get some help from better searchers or i was thinking maybe from the members who've been around here for years, who may remember the details of the specific health incidents that sparked the reasons behind the protein and fat level recommendations, and the specific reasons behind the anti-raw stance, and recommended bug quantities and why, that sort of thing. I really want to look into these issues in greater detail with some contacts I know who are more authorities on various nutritional areas for other species, and I think it could help me investigate this further if I had these reasons and back story examples all in one central location to refer to, like this thread. 
As a side note,
I'm not looking to start any huge debates or anything (until perhaps i've accumulated some promising theories) or insult or challenge any established member's knowledge, I've just had so much experience with uninformed people, including vets and breeders, passing along bad info and food recommendations that I'm just not the type anymore to trust advice based purely on the reasoning "thats just what people have done so far" so it must be the best thing possible. It's just not the way my mind works, I need to make it make sense to me too, and to do that I need some more facts to back these theories up. So far the ones I have found are just not conclusive based on other things that I know so far about nutrition. 
I appreciate any help you can offer, everyone. Thanks.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I can't offer too much experienced comments on everything, but perhaps give a little bit of explanation on some of them, anyway.

For the protein/fat levels, it depends. High protein (cut off limit given was 35%) was said to be bad for years, but more recently, I think it was LizardGirl had done some research or looking in to it and said that high protein isn't so bad unless the hedgehog already has kidney problems. I can't really say more than that though, I'm not sure on all the facts/details. For the fat, that's really a hedgie-dependent thing. Most hedgehogs are prone to being round, which is good when it's a little round, not so much when they get to being obese. Most hedgehogs fall into the "pear-shaped" category, so their sides are rounded. The analogy usually used for typed answers is ( ). You don't want to see ( ) where they're very round. There are a lot of hedgehogs, though, that are runners that burn through calories like nobody's business on their wheels and DO need the higher fat. It's just more likely to have a pear-shaped hedgie that needs lower fat, usually below 15%.

The reason canned cat food usually isn't suggested/stressed is because it's usually higher in fat than most hedgehogs should get on a regular basis. So it's used more for runner hedgehogs, syringe-feeding, or treats. 

Bugs is another one that depends (you're probably getting tired of this answer by now, lol). So far we've pretty much found that no, hedgehogs will not keel over and die if they never eat a bug in their life. Some just do not want anything to do with them and won't touch them. Most do like or love them though. Number of bugs past 0 just depends on what the hedgehog can handle. Mealworms are higher in fat, so a hedgie prone to putting weight on shouldn't get a lot. Crickets and dubia roaches are lower in fat. All of them have tough exoskeletons which, if fed too many, can cause constipation issues in a hedgehog. But all of those things take some experimentation on the part of the owner to find out what works for their particular hedgehog - how many mealies makes them gain weight, how many insects makes them start having smaller, constipated-looking poops (or sometimes you can see undigested bits in their poop). Then you know to cut down on them, or if there's no problems, you can offer a few more and see. 

For raw meat, it's not something I've tried, and I'm not sure whether I'll try it in the future or not. I think the reason a lot of people may be shy of it are a) it's messy/gross (and a rather high number of hedgie owners have to get past issues feeding bugs as it is :lol: ) and b) people are concerned about the possibility of introducing harmful bacteria to their hedgehog. While we know they eat carrion and raw meat in the wild, I think the assumption is that wild hedgehogs are more able to handle the bacteria because their bodies are still used to it. Our hedgehogs, while not domesticated long in the scheme of things, are definitely not wild anymore, and their bodies may not be fully equipped to deal with the bacteria anymore. 

Unfortunately, I don't think I have any links to specific cases or situations involving most of these things. I know there's a few threads on here with people feeding pinkies, but not with any problems occurring. Someone else who's been on longer than I have, or that knows more about nutrition in general and for hedgies, might be able to give more specific answers and situations. I'm rather interested in nutrition as well, so I'll probably keep a pretty close eye on the thread.  You asked some good questions!


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## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the input. 
I actually just spent maybe almost an hour typing out a reply in detail explaining the particular concerns i have and reasons behind my questioning certain things. But I clicked open something else on my phone and my rely didn't save. Crushing blow to my tired thumbs, lol, so I'm going to bed without repeating everything. 
If anybody does really want to know what these specific things are that I've been thinking about, let me know and maybe I can go into it tomorrow night.


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## Quinn (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm curious of what you had to say. I also find this stuff interesting.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I'd also like to know, if your poor thumbs are up to it! :lol: I clicked a wrong button while replying on something else last night, but clicked the back button and my browser had saved my reply. I hate that moment when it happens though!


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## AngelaH (Jul 24, 2012)

Here is an article I found interesting when I was researching food. Its such a confusing yet super important topic. 
http://www.hedgehogworld.com/content.ph ... y-Hedgehog


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

One of the main things I've found throughout the years is that different communities develop their own "facts" about how things must be done. They're usually with best intentions but a lot of time not entirely accurate. I'm glad you're asking about some of these "facts" and looking into them without agreeing to them blindly.  You've already gotten some good responses regarding some of the things people are dead-set on around here, so I won't parrot everything. One thing that I personally feel is important though is to really feed more insects. They may not die without them but that's what their MADE to eat and it's great for mental stimulation and if nothing else the fiber they provide. People are very scared of impaction from feeding a lot of bugs but really, as long as you're feeding them smartly (ie not giving your hedgie a half cup of worms and expecting it all to pass through fine) there is practically no risk. People have had more trouble with freeze dried insects than others, I recommend live first and then if you don't want to feed live, I've been using dry roasted bugs with no problems at all and actually find that the exoskeleton breaks apart much easier that way. One of the main reasons people don't feed bugs isn't that they aren't needed, but the owners are too afraid/squeamish to feed them.


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## MurE (Aug 29, 2011)

Wow, I really love that article. I don't feel bad anymore about adding lousy Science Diet Chicken and Rice to Poggles good Natural Balance Chicken and Pea and Duck and Pea. In fact, now I might just purposely keep buying it. Good thing too, it's cheaper  Who would have thought that having some filler in the diet like rice was important.

I wonder what "too rich" was a reference to? Too high in fat content or protein content? Maybe I missed it in the article.

Thanks for sharing the link!


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## Hillybean (Jun 10, 2010)

Unfortunately, I don't there there has been a lot of NEW extensive research done in hedgehog diets. I do think many people do the common recommendations, because people have had good results doing so. I also know that everyone does things a bit differently.

All these links may be of interest to you, if you have not already read them.
http://www.hedgehogworld.com/list.php?c ... -Nutrition


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## AngelaH (Jul 24, 2012)

From the research I've done, "too rich" means too high in protein. When I first got my hedgehog I was told not to feed cat food because it was known to cause liver problems. I later found articles saying that it causes those problems because for a while people assumed the higher the protein the better, and were getting cat foods too rich in protein.


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## Quinn (Apr 24, 2011)

All of this info is great! I love reading different opinions. I also agree with LG about feeding more insects. I figures they're suppose to eat them so I don't really consider it a treat, well maybe meal worms. I usually feed numerous crickets a night and meal worms less often. 
I finally got my hedgies to eat veggies by cooking it with the meat and mixing it together. Because I feed more cooked meat and vegetables and crickets I'm finding they're eating less kibble. As a result Quinn has been losing some weight and looking more healthy. I probably "make dinner" for them 3-4 times a week. 
Please keep sharing nutritional info I think it's really helpful for everyone!


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## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

AngelaH said:


> Here is an article I found interesting when I was researching food. Its such a confusing yet super important topic.
> http://www.hedgehogworld.com/content.ph ... y-Hedgehog


Thank you for the link, I had read this article a while ago, and I was trying to find it again the other day. 
It is one of the things I was referring to in my questioning, as examples, but the article is too vague to be conclusive evidence to me. It refers to a change to "premiere" foods, but without listing particular brands or formulas, that seems based on the opinion of the breeder or vet consultants, and could therefore mean a similarly high in grain royal canin or science diet as easily as it could a grain free wellness core. 
Before making any definitive conclusions as far as "all higher end foods will give your hedgie organ failures" I would first like to know more details. For example, about how many showed liver disease and how many showed kidney disease, as they are two different things. 
Maybe the liver issues were hepatic lipidosis caused by a partial food strike and/or susbsequent sudden weight loss upon introduction of the new (possibly less corn-filled/fattening) food? 
I am not a fan of dry kibble anyway, as I feel it leads to chronic dehydration which I'm sure plays a large part in the widespread kidney disease we see in pets. 
It does seem very likely that the food change played a part in the deaths this article refers to, I'm just not entirely convinced that it was definitively and exclusively caused directly by the reasons the vets and breeder assumed - other factors could have definitely played a part here.


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## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

MurE said:


> Wow, I really love that article. I don't feel bad anymore about adding lousy Science Diet Chicken and Rice to Poggles good Natural Balance Chicken and Pea and Duck and Pea. In fact, now I might just purposely keep buying it. Good thing too, it's cheaper  Who would have thought that having some filler in the diet like rice was important.
> 
> I wonder what "too rich" was a reference to? Too high in fat content or protein content? Maybe I missed it in the article.
> 
> Thanks for sharing the link!


Just to clarify, as i know the phrase "grain free" confused customers at work pretty often leading to the assumption that it's "filler-free" - ALL kibbles, even the best most healthiest ones, contain some sort of "filler" - a better word really that i prefer to use, would be "carb" - see picture putting meat and veggies into a pot and blending it - you'd get a wet canned food looking slop, right? Well if you want to bake that into a dry crunchy cookie, you need to add a lot of carbs, like flour, right? Well the lower end brands use mostly corn, then maybe soy or brewers rice, etc. some of the middle of the line ones try for slightly healthier stuff like whole brown rice, oatmeal, barley, etc. then you get your grain-free foods (which I agree are definitely much healthier and easier to digest, especially for carnivores like cats & dogs & ferrets), but it doesn't mean there's no "filler" - they still need that carb. So, instead they use a non-grain carb like tapioca, or potato, or sweet potato, or peas. Basically anything besides the meat is going to technically be "filler" to a carnivore. Lol. 
Regardless of my own beliefs on the nutrition topic, and relying exclusively on the preexisting practices of the present hedgehog community, you shouldn't need to "cut" your Natural Balance with a lower end food, as it is recommended because it already meets the target levels of protein and fat. In fact, I believe if you look at the ingredients on the bag, the carb comes first in that brand, which is unusual, as opposed to meat being listed first in all the other brands of grain-free food we sell, as well as most of the grain-containing high, medium and even some of the lower end foods. So it has plenty of carbs already, shouldn't need to add a different food for carb's sake I wouldn't think.


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## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Hillybean said:


> Unfortunately, I don't there there has been a lot of NEW extensive research done in hedgehog diets. I do think many people do the common recommendations, because people have had good results doing so. I also know that everyone does things a bit differently.
> 
> All these links may be of interest to you, if you have not already read them.
> http://www.hedgehogworld.com/list.php?c ... -Nutrition


Thank you for the links, appreciate it, I read through them this morning. 
Interesting stuff, I knew some of it already, but I had never come across references to choline and chromium supplementation before, I will have to look into that more.


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## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Hillybean said:


> Unfortunately, I don't there there has been a lot of NEW extensive research done in hedgehog diets. I do think many people do the common recommendations, because people have had good results doing so. I also know that everyone does things a bit differently.


And it's not that I'm sure that anything anybody else is doing is wrong. It's just I have feelings based on things I've learned about other species nutrition, that raise questions. 
A big underlying worry of mine is the basic "good results" part. I'm worried that maybe the standard now held for what constitutes a healthy hedgehog, isn't necessarily as "good" as it could or should be. 
For example, 
I regularly have customers come into the pet store where I work and say maybe they ask for shampoo. In the course of showing them where it is they mention the word "oatmeal" - which inspires me to question about the dog's health. After determining there's no flea issue, I ask about what the dog eats. I almost invariably get a reply along the lines of "no, it couldn't be a food thing, they've been eating this food for years and they're DOING GREAT on it..." But when I start mentioning specific symptoms of a possible food sensitivity, they start going "oh yeah, I guess they've always had dry skin" "oh yeah, they shed like crazy I have to vacuum every day" "oh wow yeah they do get ear infections a lot" "oh yeah their eyes are pretty watery.." "Oh yeah she does lick her one foot a lot" - 
Now, two minutes ago, they thought their dog was not only normal, but "doing great". 
One thing that I've read a lot about hedgehogs is that they're prone to dry skin and obesity. One thing I know about dogs and cats is that switching them to a grain-free (or better yet raw) diet often improves or eliminates their dry skin and obesity.
So, it just makes me wonder if maybe what's now considered good results in the hedgehog world, isn't as good as it could be. What if a raw meat (and/or lots of insects) diet could improve their health with the same dramatic results that we see in dogs & cats? What if we could improve their weight and skin condition, their parasite resistance, reduce their poop output, double their lifespan, etc etc just by questioning a couple of established "facts" and taking a more back to basics approach with their nutrition? 
I'm not saying that's a definite possibility, but that hope is the underlying reason behind this little personal project of mine.


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## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

LizardGirl said:


> One thing that I personally feel is important though is to really feed more insects. They may not die without them but that's what their MADE to eat and it's great for mental stimulation and if nothing else the fiber they provide. People are very scared of impaction from feeding a lot of bugs but really, as long as you're feeding them smartly (ie not giving your hedgie a half cup of worms and expecting it all to pass through fine) there is practically no risk. People have had more trouble with freeze dried insects than others, I recommend live first and then if you don't want to feed live, I've been using dry roasted bugs with no problems at all and actually find that the exoskeleton breaks apart much easier that way. One of the main reasons people don't feed bugs isn't that they aren't needed, but the owners are too afraid/squeamish to feed them.


I was thinking similarly, and I think the live instead of dried (or at least recently alive, like tossing them in the freezer before feeding) is important - to preserve the moisture content, which also plays a big part in impaction / constipation. 
For those feeding only dry kibble and dried insects, I can see impaction being a really big concern. For those feeding live (or recently killed) insects along with a fresher diet that includes high moisture foods, I imagine impaction is much less of a worry. 
Gutloading is a thing lots of people overlook when feeding bugs also. If the insects are gutloaded with lots of fresh high moisture high calcium before feeding off to the pet, it helps prevent against constipation issues and helps balance the calcium to phosphorous content that I read a concerned warning about somewhere in the forum here. 
There's a wonderful lady on the chameleon forums that is the "specialist" on choosing the right ingredients for gutloading to get the best balance of nutrients to reduce the amount of supplementation necessary.
For those who may not be familiar with gut loading insects:
The basic cricket chow and water gel, or maybe potatoes, that's fed to pet store crickets and superworms is not that nutritious, it's just for basic maintenance - to keep them alive until they can be sold. The mealworms are usually kept in the fridge so that slows them down so they're probably not even recently fed. So you always want to try to feed any pet store bugs with something nutritious before you give them to your pets. Preferably something moist also. If you're buying in large quantities, you can maintain the big batch with lesser stuff, save the really good stuff and give in a separate container to the few you're going to feed in the next day or two. 
Anyways, as far as insects are concerned, for a species that is classified as an insectivore, well as a person who is a big believer in a raw diet for carnivores, I think you could probably already know which way I lean here. The problem i have is that in captivity, in urban areas with widespread pesticide, fertilizer, etc use, the majority of us cannot possibly acquire the variety of insects necessarily to properly replicate an insectivore's natural needs. Even if there was a domestically bred supplier with a larger variety of species, again, they would be domestically fed indoors - the bugs themselves would not get to eat a variety of outdoor plants, exposed to real sunshine, etc. so even if there were the appropriate variety, their nutritional value is still different and lacking from their wild counterparts. 
Besides that, many species classified as insectivores do not necessarily eat only insects - they will also eat eggs or smaller lizards or mammals if they can find or catch them. This constitutes raw meat, which maybe contain special enzymes and taurine and calcium content from the bones, and maybe fat soluble vitamins like A & D maybe special stuff from the animals being exposed to sunlight during the day that may be required by the hedgehog's system that they themselves don't acquire with their nocturnal lifestyle. 
Anyways, so yeah my worry with the established beliefs on insects in their captive diet is this - maybe at one point somebody said insectivore huh? Lets feed them unsupplemented crickets and mealworms only and see what happens. And they didn't thrive. So "therefore you can't feed them lots of bugs". Well, maybe you can, not as perfectly as in the wild, but with some special considerations you just have to do it right. And this is where I look to my chameleon nutrition research for insight into insectivore nutrition. Now, True, hedgehogs are not lizards. And they're not cats. But combining my extensive research into both of those needs, I have some theories which I feel can definitely apply to a species who the closest we know about their wild ancestors is that they eat mostly bugs and raw meat, and eggs and a small amount of plant matter.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Amlinals you're thoughts are really interesting. My hedgehog Quigley died last year from a tumour in/near his bladder. The vet couldn't tell exactly where from the x-ray. Also most of my pets growing up died of digestive tract related diseases, kidney failure, liver problems, or other issues that seem like extreme symptoms of an unhealthy diet. It just seems weird that so often when I hear of someone's pet dying or getting seriously ill it's something to do with kidney's, liver, bladder. The main organs dealing with processing food. seems like sometimes they'd have a brain tumor or a heart attack or some sort of infection. My friend's cat had chronic urine crystals until they changed to a grain free food. A neighbours cat had diabetes and other problems which almost cleared up completely when she switched to grain free. It makes sense to me that these common issues could be caused by food and I'm sure there is more to learn about hedgehog nutrition. 

Unfortunately I think the hard data you are looking for doesn't really exist. Anecdotal records are about as good as I've seen. In all the research I've done on feeding other animals a good homemade diet always trumps any sort of commercial food. It does seem like that would be a promising route to take for hedgehogs too. I just wonder what is known about the vitamins and minerals they need, what foods they absorb them from and which foods block that absorption. If you find any research on this I'd definitely be interested.  Good luck


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## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Anecdotal records are helpful as well, as long as the necessary details are included. I don't need official "studies" just detailed accounts, preferably that I could follow up with other questions as necessary. 
That's the other thing I haven't touched on is cancer and tumors, I haven't read too far into that with hedgehogs yet, but I have seen the words cancer and tumors posted here and there - a lot more than I'd like to have seen. Apparently it's pretty common? 
I do know that when I first started researching into ferrets years ago, that was a big thing. They too are "prone to" cancer and tumors. Which apparently was tracked back to all the grain in the high-corn ferret kibbles and the sweet treats that previously was the standard to feed them. Switching to at least a high-protein grain free kibble, if not a raw diet, seemed to eradicate all the insulinomas, tumors, cancers, that was so common. I will admit, I haven't been on a ferret forum in years so I don't know if there has been any more dietary developments since then, but it's still another good example that diet can often be directly responsible for terrible developments often thought of as genetic predispositions that can't be helped. ( Don't get me started on how blown away I was after reading an article linking breast cancer and root canals..)


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## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

hedgielover said:


> I just wonder what is known about the vitamins and minerals they need, what foods they absorb them from and which foods block that absorption. If you find any research on this I'd definitely be interested.  Good luck


Well again, there's apparently very little research on this, as you mentioned no hard data. And I imagine that any research that has been done to establish a "standard needs" has been based on kibble form. Which I'm trying to get away from. 
Maybe, like senior cats and dogs, "studies" may show that they can only handle a certain level of protein - in a cooked and processed and dried kibble form, but in its moist raw state, their bodies can process it easier, it still has all its own enzyme content etc, so they 
can eat all the raw meat they want, and in fact senior cats often need a higher protein content as it benefits them if they're battling something like hyperthyroidism or beginning kidney disease as those come with muscle wasting aspects so they actually do need higher protein levels, but just in an easier to digest form. All the assumptions about lowering protein levels with kidney disease is actually more attributed to difficulties processing phosphorous, not protein, it's just that the two basically go hand in hand with meat content. But as far as i've heard, the latest recommendations show it's healthier to keep a good level of meat protein in their diet (in an easy to digest form) and supplement with phosphorus binders to accommodate for the phosphorous processing issues. 
Anyways, getting off topic here - my point being, that even any official studies we may find MAY only be applicable to kibble. 
What initiated all this with me is my knowledge of what grain filled processed kibble has done to other species. Then one of the first sentences I read on the topic of hedgehog nutrition basically said "most hedgehog foods aren't very good quality, so most people feed cat food." 
So then I took that the next step - if cat food has proved to be the best thing for hedgehogs so far, and that cat food they're using isn't even that great for cats, then maybe the BEST thing for cats might be better for hedgehogs..get us closer to the ideal??
I realize that hedgehogs aren't carnivores, so I'm thinking a compromise that seems to make sense based on the things we DO know about what some wild hedgehogs eat - so, i'm thinking some of the best diet for chameleons (insectivores), combined with some of the best diet for cats (carnivores) 
If kibble cat food works ok for them so far, I think that basically narrows down what vitamins & minerals they need. Since cat kibble is essentially trying the best it can to mimic a carnivorous cat's nutritional needs... We should try to do the same. 
If people have found a "higher fibre" cat kibble is a better choice, we can kind of connect that to the fact that generally since they are classified as insectivores, wild hedgehogs would a higher ratio of bugs than meat. Which would explain their need for more fibre than a cat.

So my choice of what im imagining might end up being the closest replica of an ideal pet hedgehog diet would be made up of part raw (balanced with approx 80% meat, including 10% bone and 5% liver and 5% kidney) supplemented slightly with a fish pil depending on the meat used, and then also add insects, well gutloaded especially with moist high calcium content veggies and fruits, with as much variety of insects as possible. I'm just not sure of the proper proportion of insects to meat. I imagine that would also depend on what exact variety of insects you were offering.

I would be happy to explain more about the why raw issue if necessary, or go into more detail about what seems to be the best approaches to a raw diet and to the best ingredients for gutloading of insects if any of you don't already know much about this, feel free to ask me specific questions, and I'll do my best to answer them or find out the answers (my memory is bad) 
In reference to the original quote, I don't have hedgehog info links of course (that's what I'm asking for in my topic post) but I can show you things from other species if you're interested in specific things.?


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

That's a good point about the diet research, I wish I could commission a study. Sometimes I just want the answer to something and it seems like the only way to find it is to pay a scientist in a lab to find out for me. Your plan about a homemade diet sounds good. It makes sense that you could pull what you know about other insectivores to create a hedgehog diet. If it works for you then that is awesome and you'll have to keep us all updated about what the diet ends up being and how it works for your hedgehog. 

I think the current dry cat food mix diet was arrived at because it's a compromise between healthy and easy. Not everyone can feed an entirely fresh food diet, not all hedgehogs will eat all the fresh food they should, and not everyone has access to a good variety of insects. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. You're probably right that it would be better for them.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

I love this discussion, but I think the definition of a hedgehog's wild diet is being over-simplified. They're not exclusive insectivores, and they're not exclusive carnivores - but they're not just a combination of the two either. They're omnivores. They forage and eat what they find - which includes insects, non-insect "bugs" (i.e. snails, slugs, arachnids), mushrooms/fungi, small animals (amphibians, reptiles, smaller mammals), bird eggs, fruit (including berries, melons, or whatever fruit they might encounter fallen from trees), and various kinds of edible vegetation.

With such a varied diet in the wild, which includes a good bit of fiber (through insects and fruit/vegetation) it makes sense that dry cat kibble (with all the "good" qualities that don't really bear repeating) would actually be better for hedgehogs than it is for cats. I completely agree with LG about the inclusion of insects, and ideally a diet should be supplemented with fruits/vegetables/meat/etc - but I think considerations for a "raw" diet are a lot more complicated if it's supposed to replace a kibble diet, imitate a wild diet, and supply all the necessary nutrients and other little details. A hedgehog's body is designed to be able to process some kind of plant/grain/shrubbery matter in addition to the rest, so the presence of "fillers" in a moderate amount makes sense - whereas for a cat or ferret, which are obligate carnivores, having those in the food serves no purpose and can be considered detrimental. Hedgehogs are more like dogs or bears, in terms of being omnivorous with a carnivorous leaning. Just something to consider.


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## artistshrugged (Sep 5, 2012)

Not only am I far more interested in hedgehog nutrition than I was before I started reading this, I also wish I was closer to my parents house so I could check out what my dog is eating. We have always been careful about which food we choose, and have a great local pet store to ask for advice. But now that I think about it my first dog died of kidney failure and complications of diabetes. I still attribute that to his lifelong epilepsy and therefore exposure to phenobarbital, but I am also wondering if an improved diet might have prolonged his life. My current dog also has epilepsy (much lower incidence of seizures than the first dog though), and very dry, dandery skin. I'll have to ask my parents what he eats and see if the ingredients mesh up with what you've said here.

I agree with hedgielover that the mix of cat foods is definitely considered the 'best' choice to tell owners because it combines ease with quality. But I also wonder if someone were to take some of the guesswork out of a raw/mixed diet if more owners might switch over. Based on the response to this topic I am willing to bet quite a few would make changes to their hedgehog's diet if they knew where to start. I know that I don't have sufficient knowledge to know begin adjusting the diet, and quite honestly not enough interest to sustain the quest to find a perfect blend. But, if someone else were to offer up a diet 'plan' for hedgies that made it less confusing I'd be apt to try it out.

I share some of the concerns with moxieberry, which is why I think many are reluctant to change the diets. Part of the benefit of a kibble is the variety of ingredients that supplement a hedgehog's diet in a way we might never think to do. Thus why it would take time and trials to find a diet that would cover the gaps in nutrition that a standard raw/insect/mixed diet would leave.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Clicked on this and was a bit surprised to see how far behind I was on the conversation here! :lol: All I have to add is that I pretty much agree with most of the main points, about grains possibly causing allergies (I knew that with dogs/cats, having run into it a lot as well in my pet store job, but never thought to apply it to hedgehogs for some reason), and the reasoning behind using dry cat food is both out of ease and fear of not providing everything they need in a raw or homemade diet. I know that many of us that tried a homemade diet with our hogs continued to offer kibble too, just as a safety net to catch any vitamins or minerals we might've missed. I really do want to experiment and research more into a homemade diet as well though, when I get hedgehogs again. It's driving me nuts now not to have one to try different things with. I had just started to work on adding in more homemade things to Lily's diet in the year or less before she died, from a liver tumor. But it is a bit nervewracking to think about it all too, and know that while others may look forward to hearing what you discover & learning new things to try from what works for you, that through it all, it's your own hog's health that you're risking, even with all of the research you might do. 

Though, one thing I'm curious with for the whole "some/many hedgehogs won't eat a homemade diet or fresh foods" thing, whether part or most of that is just due to what they're raised on. Even if you start trying to introduce as many foods as you can right when you get your hoglet, they've already spent the previous week or two learning to eat the food their mom was eating - kibble. Maybe whatever food their mom eats is so set in their minds that it makes it harder to introduce some hedgehogs to fresh foods? "That doesn't look like kibble, I don't know that it won't poison me, so I won't eat it." No clue if that's an actual possible cause, but it makes me kind of curious to see what would happen if a mom was fed a homemade/fresh food diet and the hoglets were weaned onto that without ever seeing kibble.


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm getting caught up reading this thread and some articles linked in, so I'll have more to add in a bit - just wanted to mention that yes, animals definitely develop preferences based on what they're weaned onto, so if breeders would start feeding more fresh food when they are babies, we could gradually get the hedgehog population to a much more "open-minded" state when it comes to food.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Just to clarify - the "concerns" that I raised don't mean that I'm against this kind of thing at all. I just think hedgehog nutrition isn't a simple thing at all, and breaking down a hypothetical raw diet into "part meat, part insects" is leaving out a lot. Kibble, while not ideal, is designed to cover a range of all those little details - nutrients, vitamins, minerals, yada yada - that would be difficult for your average pet owner to be able to provide in a homemade diet.

I think I've used this example before on another thread at some point - I know of a dog that was fed a homemade diet for a year, and ended up with a broken jaw. Not because of any physical trauma, the bone just sort of broke on its own - his bones were just so weak after a year on a diet that lacked some important components.

Obviously we can't let our hedgies roam free in the woods to replicate their wild diet through that kind of foraging - so we have to use what's available to us the best we can to give them what they need. There's plenty of foods in an average kitchen that can be fed to a hedgehog, but that doesn't necessarily mean that feeding them ONLY that is going to work very well. I've never owned cats (allergic, unfortunately), but I imagine a raw diet for a cat is much more straight-forward, because they're obligate carnivores. Hedgehogs, on the other hand, being omnivores, can't be dealt with in such simple terms - by the very nature of trying to "replicate" a wild diet, we have to simplify it, but for omnivores there are all sorts of details to consider. Most of which we have little or no understanding of. Cat food, at the very least, is designed by professionals with the very intention of including all of those little details. Obviously, it's designed for cats, but collective experience of breeders and owners has indicated that a high quality cat kibble works best - of what's been tried _so far_. Of the available options, a diet of cat food works best in terms of longevity and health. The risk of trying something new like a raw diet is that you're "experimenting". You're setting aside a very good, if not quite perfect option (cat kibble) to play around and see what happens. They're not lab rats, though, they're our pets, so that kind of experimenting should be done with quite a bit of care.

For anyone wanting to try a raw diet - instead of simplifying it, I think you should do your best to provide just as much variety (or close to) as they would get in the wild. Don't just include one or two types of insects that are readily available in pet stores, aim for at least five or six different types. Same for the meat, the fruits, the vegetables. Then toss in some mushrooms for good measure. Some eggs. Toss in some pinkies, and some of the "gross" parts of animals - the organs, the bones.

Honestly, short of that, I don't think a completely kibble-free diet is going to be able to cover the range of nutritional needs that hedgehogs have. And, with any kind of new knowledge earned, the way it happens is through trial and error. To eventually understand more of the specifics of what they need, the "error" part would have to happen, and then be learned from. As much as I'd love to see an all-encompassing raw/holistic diet figured out for hedgehogs, I don't want to see _my_ hedgehogs suffer in any way to make it happen. Cat food isn't perfect, but it's still very good, and if you can use cat food as the staple, with fresh fruits/vegetables/meat/insects/etc added onto that (daily, if possible) - it's even better than "very good". As much as I want to solve the puzzle and gain more knowledge of hedgehog nutrition, I'm not really willing to risk the welfare of my hedgehogs to achieve that. Maybe if the best option right now was "crap" - but it's not. The gap between "very good" (or "better than very good" when you add the daily supplements) and "perfect/ideal" isn't very big, and trying to bridge that gap doesn't seem worth it, if it's going to risk my hedgies in the process.

I'm really not trying to rain on this parade, I'm just trying to look at it in a realistic manner. It's _complicated_, and in this specific context, the idea of "trying something new" can very easily be at the expense of our animals, so it shouldn't be dealt with lightly. Beyond that, by all means - if anyone feels confident enough, at some point, to try out a completely kibble-free diet that they've designed, I'd love to look at the way it's designed, the reasons for everything it includes, and the results. I'd love if we could learn more about how hedgehog diet works, and I'm all for changing to something better once the "better" is figured out. It's just the "figuring it out" part that makes me uneasy.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I don't think you're raining on any parades, Moxie, and I understand/share your concerns. I know that a proper raw or homemade diet takes a LOT of research and figuring and preparing and all of that stuff. A big problem we have at Wildside is people trying to take care of wild animals and feed them without even looking up what should be fed. :roll: Then we get things like dehydrated baby squirrels, birds of prey even sicker because people have been trying to force-feed them wrong meat (no, venison, beef, and _bologna_ are not a proper diet for a great horned owl...), and opossums with metabolic bone disorder because people don't realize they need calcium.

I feel like the best way to start with basics for a homemade diet for hedgehogs would be with dog homemade/raw/fresh diets, since they have the omnivore thing as well. Perhaps taking pointers from (proper) dog homemade diets, but with the percentages of nutrients/vitamins/minerals as what cat food provides (but probably with a bit more fiber)? I see your concern with the whole experimenting on your own hedgehog thing, though, even with research behind it, and I think that's really a big reason why most people are hesitant or refuse to try doing it. Though I think the other part is probably the prospect of having to offer more bugs, pinkies, etc. for the more squeamish owners. :lol:

Also, kind of a random thought, but it makes me think of how I've REALLY wanted to try the "Chop" concept out on hedgehogs since I read about it being an awesome way to give birds a huge variety of veggies. Having the pieces chopped up so small would make choking unlikely, and for the same reason it works with birds, having everything mixed together as well as being so small makes it hard for them to pick out something they like and leave the rest. Though with as picky as hedgies tend to be, I could see them just ignoring the whole mix instead, but I'd really be interested to try anyway...Perhaps it would work to mix with meat or something, like how meat baby food encouraged Lily to eat pretty much any veggie baby food (and I know other owners have had success with cooking meat/veggies together). Perhaps dry roasting insects and processing them into smaller pieces to mix in with the veggies...hm.

(Really though, if anyone tries this kind of concept out with hedgehogs, even if you're still offering kibble, please PM me the results or post them or something? I'm just so curious. :lol: I also want Chop to be the miracle food method for multiple animals, since so far it's worked for me with birds, rats, hamsters, and a baby beaver.  )


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## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Now I have to catch up! Lol.

Anyways, I understand and expected all the concerns you all mentioned. 

The info that you mentioned about the other things in a wild hedgehog's diet that I hadn't mentioned - do you have a link to that info? I'm wondering if perhaps it gave any estimation of the percentages of bugs to meat to plant matter?
I had assumed the plant matter was more minor nibbling, the way cats might do, but if it is a larger portion of the natural hedgehog diet, adding some greens & veggies to a ground raw mix would not be difficult at all, and many varieties of commercially prepared raw already include a percentage of veggies anyway. 
Although cats often do nibble on plants and catch and eat bugs too, they are still classified as carnivores. And dogs are classified as omnivores, but they are built internally just like carnivores, it's just that they're also scavengers. I've seen some dogs eat sticks and rocks and towels and socks too, but it doesn't mean they're a necessary part of the diet - they were just interesting to chew on at the time. Maybe some of the things wild hedgies have been witnessed to eat are the same way? 
As for the reference to the dog with the broken jaw, I had seen that in another post - but again, without knowing the backstory of what exactly was included or not included in the diet, it is kind of an unfair warning against raw diets in general. Perhaps they were only feeding meat and didnt include any bone, so there was a huge calcium deficiency? A raw diet done properly and a "homemade diet" can be very very different things, and is the reason everyone is scared of them and scared to stray away from the "perfectly balanced" kibble industry. 
The ironic thing is, that cat kibble is based in trying to replicate the nutritional content of the perfect cat food: a raw mouse. They'll (the food companies) will admit there are probably unknown but important nutrients in a cat's natural diet (fresh raw prey) that they haven't discovered in their scientific analysis yet. 
In its raw and natural state, meat contains many essential amino acids and enzymes and vitamins and nutrients - once it's cooked, a large portion of that is lost. Even the heat from grinding can lose some of the taurine content. freezing loses a little of the nutritional value too, but not nearly as much as heat. Once it's cooked and processed into a dry kibble, an even huger portion of its nutritional value is lost. That is why they have to add all those things at the end of your kibble's ingredient list - the raw animal started out with all that stuff in the first place, they just killed it all with all the heat processing. 
So the complicated part of trying to balance a raw diet comes from trying to recreate a whole animal. If you've got a mouse, great. It's small and usually comes whole. With other bigger animals, it gets a little more complicated. You're obviously not going to feed your hedgehog a whole lamb or turkey or cow. That's where the 80/10/10 meat/bone/organ ratio comes into play. This is a basic guideline that is modeled after the composition of a whole prey animal. (Kind of the same way cat kibble is)
The reason a lot of homemade diets go wrong is that people will often leave out some of that ratio - most common are people who feed meat but no bone, but then there are also lots of those that feed only a cheap part of one animal, like say chicken necks - lots of bone, but very little meat, and no organs. 
If you have access to a variety of meats, edible bone, and organs including liver and at least one other secreting organ such as kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain etc. then you can balance a raw diet. The only other supplement that would be needed would be a fish oil, and that is because of the omega imbalances in today's meat due to commercial farming industry corn feed - if you had free range organic chickens, and rabbits and cows that were grass fed, you probably wouldn't need to supplement with the fish oil. 
When you see complicated recipes for raw diets that include all these extra vitamins and supplements, that is usually based on using easy to access ingredients and parts small enough to grind in simple relatively cheap grinders. If you had better access to a wide variety of ingredients and or processing equipment, you wouldn't have to supplement the same way. Even in those recipes it will often state that they've included this ingredient "just to be safe" as in its probably not even necessary. 
If you think this sounds too simplified, I recommend Dr. Karen Becker's book "Real Food for Healthy Dogs & Cats" - it spells out several detailed recipes and supplement mixes to accompany those recipes, and distinguishes between if you are or aren't including certain items for which supplements are necessary. 
There are lots of nutritional analysis charts that also reference AAFCO guidelines as well if that interests you too. 

Anyways, I've been babbling now and I'm getting sleepy and have now forgotten what was in you guys's posts. Lol. I'll read them over again tomorrow morning and get back on track with the specific things you guys were talking about.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I know one of the reasons I've seen people say they're concerned about feeding actual raw meat to a hedgehog is that because they've been domesticated for a few decades now, their bodies may now lack the ability to deal with possibly bacteria/parasites that might be in the meat. I wonder whether that would actually be true or not though. If they're naturally omnivores in the wild, it seems like their bodies would stay able to process that kind of food, even down to handling the possible bacteria. Thinking of it in terms of my friend's ferret, whom she's feeding a raw diet to, they've been domesticated for a long time, even longer than hedgehogs (I think). Their bodies are still able to deal with possible bacteria and such from raw meat, and it's the best possible diet you can give them, if you do it right with the organs, calcium, etc. Granted, I know there's a number of precautions she follows on the advice of her ferret forum, such as keeping the food frozen until she'll need it, then letting it thaw in the fridge. She feeds him regularly and the food doesn't stay out for longer than 4-5 hours. I could see where we might run into some issues there with hedgehogs though - nocturnal instead of diurnal, and most people sleep longer than 4-5 hours, so it'd be a bit iffy to leave raw meat out all night for a hedgehog in case they didn't finish all of it right away and tried to go back and eat it after 5 hours or more. I wonder what the hedgehogs would think of getting their raw meat portion earlier in the night, while the humans are still awake and can clean up after, then getting veggies and insects for the rest of the night?


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## Quinn (Apr 24, 2011)

I just couldn't read all of that lol. I tried to catch up but gave up lol. So far everything that I have read is very interesting. There were a lot of points that I have never thought of. Most of these thoughts I completely agree with. It would be far too dificult to have a raw diet for the average person. Like myself I have no clue how to do the ratios of meat/bone/organs. I'm sure the book reccomended by Amlinals would explain all but it seems like a lot of work. Also more research needs to be done as well (I'm sure this has already been mentioned before). I will always use kibble as their main diet and add insects, meat and veggies as well. This ensures that I'm not missing a macro/micro nutrient.

I really enjoy this thread so far and it's all well written and everyone who has shared an opinion has done a great job of explaing why they have that opinion! 

The raw meat I would think would be an issue. Feeding it earlier and then clening it up would be a good idea.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Particularly given that hedgehog cages are heated, the raw meat thing would be problematic. I'm not sure about even leaving it out for just a few hours, if the average cage is around 75 degrees.


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## Hillybean (Jun 10, 2010)

moxieberry said:


> Particularly given that hedgehog cages are heated, the raw meat thing would be problematic. I'm not sure about even leaving it out for just a few hours, if the average cage is around 75 degrees.


My thoughts exactly.. Some hedgehogs eat their food quickly, but others munch on it over the course of the night. Many people are recommended to free feed and keep food available all the time.

Also, what goes in has to come out. I would say at least 25% of hedgehog owners have an issue dealing with their hedgehog waste smells and think they stink. I am not one of these people, but the wast products from raw, I do not think would be pleasant.

Many people would be willing to prepare raw diets for their hedgehogs if they knew it was better. A "how to make make raw hedgehog diet" guideline could be made, so I don't think that would be an issue.

One thought that keeps coming to mind, is in order to do a real case study situation on a hedgehog diet, you would need weaned pedigree young. You would also need a good vet with hedgehog experience. My reason for thinking this is hedgehogs come from a variety of situations. What works for one or a few might not work for others. Ages, and over all body conditions is also a factor. We really don't want people with 3-4yr old hedgies, to start switching this late in the game. Given their age it would be hard to tell (if issues popped up) if the issues were from age, diet, or congenital.

Of course I am not saying that people with pets can't try this. Just wanting to add in a caution due to many people viewing this site and many of which that don't join.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Hillybean said:


> moxieberry said:
> 
> 
> > Also, what goes in has to come out. I would say at least 25% of hedgehog owners have an issue dealing with their hedgehog waste smells and think they stink. I am not one of these people, but the wast products from raw, I do not think would be pleasant.


I can see your reasoning, but I have a feeling it'd be the exact opposite, at least for most hedgehogs - my friend's ferret smells less himself and has less smelly poop (and also poops a bit less) since she switched him to a raw diet. A common result with switching dogs and cats to raw diets is also smaller, better formed, less smelly poop. From what I know, the reason behind that is because they're using more of the nutrients in the food, which cuts down on waste, and they're also able to process the nutrients more efficiently because it's what their body is evolved to process (like it's easier for cats to process meat proteins rather than vegetable proteins). It might end up depending on the hedgehog too though. Some people have more issues with giving their hedgehogs seafood than others, so perhaps it bothers some hedgies more than others.

I do agree with your points about a case study though. It would be very interesting to get a research grant for this...Of course, you'd have to be careful to stay unbiased - one of my reasons for probably not being able to do something like this is if a diet starts negatively impacting the health of a hedgehog, I'd probably quit the study or compromise it in order to help that hedgehog. I know a lot of people would, but...not great for getting correct scientific results either.


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## momIImany (Oct 14, 2012)

Hi guys,
I'm new to this forum and I won't be getting my hedgehog till Friday but I have been reading all the different topics. I would like to suggest making the chicken/turkey meatballs and instead of adding rice as a binder, use ground kibbles (your hog's choice) similar to us using bread crumbs; and add mealworms and crickets before baking. You can chill/freeze them before adding to the mixture. This would add all the food groups including your meat, vegetables, insects, and keebles. :mrgreen: 
momIImany


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

This is an extremely interesting topic and something I've been thinking of a lot lately.



moxieberry said:


> I love this discussion, but I think the definition of a hedgehog's wild diet is being over-simplified. They're not exclusive insectivores, and they're not exclusive carnivores - but they're not just a combination of the two either. They're omnivores. They forage and eat what they find - which includes insects, non-insect "bugs" (i.e. snails, slugs, arachnids), mushrooms/fungi, small animals (amphibians, reptiles, smaller mammals), bird eggs, fruit (including berries, melons, or whatever fruit they might encounter fallen from trees), and various kinds of edible vegetation.
> 
> With such a varied diet in the wild, which includes a good bit of fiber (through insects and fruit/vegetation) it makes sense that dry cat kibble (with all the "good" qualities that don't really bear repeating) would actually be better for hedgehogs than it is for cats. I completely agree with LG about the inclusion of insects, and ideally a diet should be supplemented with fruits/vegetables/meat/etc - but I think considerations for a "raw" diet are a lot more complicated if it's supposed to replace a kibble diet, imitate a wild diet, and supply all the necessary nutrients and other little details. A hedgehog's body is designed to be able to process some kind of plant/grain/shrubbery matter in addition to the rest, so the presence of "fillers" in a moderate amount makes sense - whereas for a cat or ferret, which are obligate carnivores, having those in the food serves no purpose and can be considered detrimental. Hedgehogs are more like dogs or bears, in terms of being omnivorous with a carnivorous leaning. Just something to consider.


I agree on this. The order Insectivora doesn't exist any more, and hedgehogs are now classified as Erinaceidae (the animals in this order are considered omnivorous). However, the major part of the diet of most hedgehog species consists of insects. But they also eat fruit, seeds, grains, nuts, roots, eggs, carrion and small animals like frogs, snakes, baby birds, mice, etc. It's not that they are just interested to try it once, it is in fact a part of their diet. They balance the insects out with other things and in some species this part is bigger than in others. It also depends on the season and what is available to them at that place and time.
I assume that most of the people here live in the USA, where hedgehogs don't live in the wild. I have wild hedgehogs in my backyard and I witness them searching for food sometimes and they really are opportunists; they eat what they find - whether that be insects, berries, mushrooms or carrion. Those are European hedgehogs; insects are still the biggest part of their diet, but that's not necessarily true for all species. The Afghan hedgehog for example is known for its love for melons - they are considered a pest sometimes because of that. Berries are also a big part of their diet.
The APHs are originally from Africa (although it's from different parts since they're a cross breed), so it would be the most logical thing to check what's available to them over there and what they eat. But I think that because of this complex diet, it's really hard to make your home-made mix work. What I've been thinking about for my own hedgehog is adding more stuff besides his dry cat food, by making a mix for example (I know a few people who do that). Mix kibble with veggies, fruit, maybe even meat or eggs and crush/blend it. Try to offer him more different kind of insects, who are gut loaded with different kinds of food as well (right now he only eats freeze dried mealies - I'm trying to get him to eat living ones, he also dislikes everything else so this is gonna be fun). That way you don't ban the cat food entirely but you just mix more stuff in.

I've also found this, it's from a book called "Egels in de tuin" ("Hedgehogs in the garden" written by Monica Neumeier) and it's about different insects and how important they are for the diet of the European hedgehog. I don't know this book (found this part on the internet) so I'm not sure if it's all true and correct, but it might be interesting.

Voedseldieren vd egel - Belang voor de voeding - Bruto voedingswaarde (in %)
Kevers- Zeer belangrijk - 27,9 - 56,3
Vlinderrupsen - Zeer belangrijk - 17,7 - 43,1
Regenwormen - Zeer belangrijk - 12,3 - 33,9
Oorwurmen - Belangrijk - 1,5 - 10,5
Keverlarven - Belangrijk - 0,4 - 10,5
Slakken - Zeer belangrijk - 1,3 - 5,6
Muggen en vliegen - Zeer belangrijk - 2,9 - 7,0
Duizendpoten ed. - Zeer belangrijk - 0,3 - 2,2
Pissebedden - Onbelangrijk - 0,1 - 1,1
Mieren, bijen, wespen - Onbelangrijk - Geen opgave
Spinnen - Onbelangrijk - Geen opgave

I've translated it to English (or at least I tried :lol: )

Living food/insects of the hedgehog diet - Importance of food - Gross nutritive value (in %)
Beetles - Very important - 27,9 - 56,3
Caterpillars - Very important - 17,7 - 43,1
Earthworms - Very important - 12,3 - 33,9
Earwigs - Important - 1,5 - 10,5
Beatle larvea - Important - 0,4 - 10,5
Snails - Very important - 1,3 - 5,6
Mosquito's and flies - Very important - 2,9 - 7,0
Centipedes etc - Very important - 0,3 - 2,2
Woodlouse - Not important - 0,1 - 1,1
Ants, bees and wasps - not important - not specified
Spiders - not important - not specified

My apologies for any weird grammar or other mistakes - this is really interesting and I couldn't wait to answer certain things but I'm very tired right now, so even writing in my own language is hard, and English, well... :roll: :lol:


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

The insect list is really interesting...I know I wished I could get more insects for Lily when I had her, and definitely plan to give future hogs more variety (the usual mealworms/aliens/beetles and crickets, definitely adding dubia roaches, and I plan to see what other things I can get a hold of). I'd love to find sources to get caterpillars and snails from, maybe do a worm farm...I've heard mixed opinions on the earthworms though. Some people say they're fine, lots of protein, others say they have no nutrition. Not sure how you'd do mosquitoes and flies though, or if they'd be possible to get from safe sources. I do have to admit, fat chance of any hog of mine getting centipedes...I'm fine with almost all bugs, but NO WAY will I lay any part of my body near a centipede! :shock: :lol:

The snails thing also reminded me of a member that used to be more active on here, fracturedcircle. She was Russian (if I remember correctly), and knew a lot of Russian hedgehog owners. They follow a more natural homemade diet over there, from what I could tell, and she did the same. I remember she ordered snails from where, and fed a lot of different insects besides.



Draenog said:


> My apologies for any weird grammar or other mistakes - this is really interesting and I couldn't wait to answer certain things but I'm very tired right now, so even writing in my own language is hard, and English, well... :roll: :lol:


I think your typing is better here than mine is when I'm really tired, with English as my first language! :lol:


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

I've checked our local library online (closed today) and they have the book ("Egels in de tuin") where the insect list comes from, so I'll go to the library tomorrow and rent it. There might be some other interesting books as well, I've seen a couple of titles being mentioned when I was searching for information on this subject yesterday.

Mine doesn't even look at living insects :? even though I tell him he's supposed to eat this and they really are delicious :lol: (he doesn't fall for the trick)
I can imagine that some insects would be hard to get a hold of, but it would be a great thing if you could find various insects (or cultivate them yourself). The list above is based on European hedgehogs, I think their diet might differ more or less since the Four-toed hedgehogs in Africa live mainly on dry grasslands and the European hedgehog prefers the wetter forest and gardens. So I can imagine the Four-toed hedgehog eating more crickets, termites, ants, beatles and larvae instead of snails and earthworms for example. There's little known about the North African hedgehog, but as far as I know they prefer a more mixed habitat. But I think adding more insects to the diet will definitely be a good thing.

(And ssht Lilysmommy, you don't want to know how long it took me to write that post :lol: )


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## Quinn (Apr 24, 2011)

I totally agree with more insects. But the issue is where to buy all the different varieties. Even the petstores that offer live insects, it's usually crickets, mealworms and superworms. I've came across silk and wax worms once but those are too fatty. I'm more interested in the roaches but I can never find them. I would love to offer more variety to my hedgehogs since in the past few months they've been showing more interest in new foods that couldn't get them to eat before. Also I really do think variety is best for them since they are such opportunistic eater in the wirld.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Maybe if you (and/or others) could make a deal with people who keep reptiles or insects... I believe roaches aren't that hard to come by, but I'm not sure if that's the same in your area.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Quinn said:


> I totally agree with more insects. But the issue is where to buy all the different varieties. Even the petstores that offer live insects, it's usually crickets, mealworms and superworms. I've came across silk and wax worms once but those are too fatty. I'm more interested in the roaches but I can never find them. I would love to offer more variety to my hedgehogs since in the past few months they've been showing more interest in new foods that couldn't get them to eat before. Also I really do think variety is best for them since they are such opportunistic eater in the wirld.


Exactly my problem, I'm pretty sure there is only the one store in Toronto that sells decent live insects, and like you said they have meal worms, superworms and crickets. I haven't tried insects with Koloth yet, his lack of teeth presents some challenges, I think I'll have to blend the insects for him.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

If you guys are willing/able, I'm sure there's some decent sites online that you can order insects from. I know I've seen a couple sources thrown around for dubia roaches, especially if you check reptile forums for recommendations. There's a couple herp people on here too, and they may have good suggestions.


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

I raise and sell mealworms, dubia roaches, african nightcrawlers (clean and hedgie-friendly), and a few other species that are still too small in number to really count. If anyone is in need of a good feeder supplier I'm happy to ship within the continental US or point people to other sellers depending on what you're looking for.


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