# Cat Food vs. Commercial Hedgehog Food



## liam1 (Feb 15, 2015)

Hey guys, so I started this thread to try and gather opinions of what you believe is a better food source, cat food or commercial hedgehog food. The reason I ask is because I take my baby Liam to an exotic animal vet who is very experienced with hedgehogs, and both times I've gone he has suggested I switch Liam over to hedgehog complete by exotic nutrition (this one to be exact http://www.exoticnutrition.com/heco32oz.html ). He explained that the reasons were that cat food just doesn't have the sufficient fiber that hedgies require, and has way too much protein and fat. What kind of had me sold was when he mentioned that it was a upsetting that the first thing that popped up when you searched up hedgehog nutrition was cat food. I've read some posts that state commercial hedgehog food is possibly dangerous and I just wanted to know what your stance was on the subject. Would it be worth while to mix 1/2 cat food and 1/2 hedgehog food to make up their daily meals?


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## lifequards (Mar 28, 2015)

I honestly don't know what to tell you.
No one here is a fully trained veterinarian. They will yip and yap to you about every little thing but until I see a degree I'm assuming no one is fully qualified. 

I made a post about this a few weeks ago and here are the responses I got:
"This is not good. There are 2 kinds of corn and 2 kinds of soy in the first 5 ingredients. (Corn and soy are just about the 2 most GMO foods out there). Then there's cane molasses (sugar). None of this tells you the source either on the bloodmeal or the tallow. That's why most people think "hedgehog" food is crap. Your hedgie would be better off eating the box it came in.
Get something that has real food for at least the first 5 ingredients. 
There are plenty of good stickies on what you should look for in a good food."

"In fact, most commercial hedgehog foods are no good for hedgehogs. You definitely want a named meat (chicken, turkey, lamb, etc.) as a first or second ingredient. "Bloodmeal" as a primary ingredient doesn't sound at all healthy for a hedgehog, and I don't see any meats at all in those ingredients. "

"You want to avoid freeze dried insects. They've been known to cause impactions. There's no moisture in them and if your hedgehog does not drink enough water to make up for how dry the mealworms are it basically plugs up your hedgies system."

"Usually hedgehogs can kill the mealworms for themselves. But if it bothers you that much, canned is a better option than dried mealworms. They retain more moisture & aren't going to cause impactions (unless your hedgie eats a ton at once & has trouble digesting the exoskeleton)."

Honestly, how do we even know what to feed our buddies?


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## MomLady (Aug 14, 2010)

There are threads with what to look for in a food. Not all vets are trained in pet nutrition and specifically for hedgehogs, since no one knows for sure their exact needs.

It is up to YOU as a hedgie parent to do your own research as best as you can and feed them the best food you can. There are excellent threads on this forum about raw feeding, homemade foods and recommended foods. There are links to a great website about pet food, hopefully someone will link it. 
There are many cases where hedgies do better when fed "real food" and not kibble.

No animal does well on corn, including cows, hence the trend to grass-fed beef, for those who eat meat.

You were given excellent advice from people with a lot of experience. No corn, no sugar, named meats--like chicken, not just "meal", no freeze dried insects and I would suggest you get food made in the US with food with known sources--not China. Remember the petfood recalls and horrible deaths from tainted food several years back.

And yes, commercial hedgehog food does not meet these requirements.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

I've heard of a few people that tried that food and said the pellets were to hard for the hedgehog to even eat it and all they ate was the freeze dried mealworms. Seems like a waste to me.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

We can never give a hedgehog the diet they would have in the wild. Even those who do raw/natural diets can't - we don't have access to the specific insects, etc. they would eat in the wild. And honestly? We don't know exactly what they eat. We know general information - insects, invertebrates, nestlings of small mammals & birds, eggs, small amounts of vegetable matter, berries, etc. We don't know specifics or how much of each item.

As far as I know, no one here is a certified veterinarian or animal nutritionist. To be honest? Most veterinarians aren't animal nutritionists either. And really, some vets, I wouldn't follow their nutrition advice for anything. Vets receive some schooling on nutrition, but in their time in vet school, they have a TON of things to learn about - unless they have a special interest in nutrition, they mostly get the basics. And though I am not in vet school, have no plans to do so, and can't verify the truth of this, there are a lot of people that maintain that the nutrition information they receive is mainly from companies that sell pet food. I do remember seeing something along those lines from someone going to school to be a vet tech - she was a raw feeder (for dogs) & was appalled at the information they were given.

We're not perfect. No one knows the perfect diet for hedgehogs. There is no one perfect diet for every hedgehog, because every hedgehog is different - some need lower fat, some need higher fat. Some may have allergies, some may do badly on one brand, while another does great on it. We do our best, and share what information we do know. If you want to read more about ingredients in pet food & why certain ones are bad, this is my go-to website: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/ I recommend it to anyone who wants to learn more about what to look for in a food.

Lifeguards, just because people on here do not have a specific degree in animal nutrition or veterinary medicine does not discount their years of experience & research. Yes, you have to take any advice you receive on the internet with some amount of caution. Not everyone knows what they're talking about. Many people won't admit to that. But a lot of the people on here do have years of hedgehog ownership & research to their name, and I would trust several of them in a heartbeat over some vets I know. A degree doesn't automatically mean a person knows everything. Not having one doesn't mean a person knows nothing. Experience gets you a long way. And the experience of many people that have owned hedgehogs for years is that hedgehog foods tend to be very bad, and that hedgehogs that are being fed those foods tend to be in poor health, more often than not. We know that good quality cat foods will keep a hedgehog healthy & contain all of the nutrients they need. And we know that the quality of some ingredients are very bad and should be avoided. That's what we have to go on, so that's what gets recommended on here. I'm not sure why anyone here needs a veterinary degree in order to know those things & give advice on it.

Liam1, like I said, many vets don't have much knowledge on nutrition or pet food ingredients. I tend to take vet advice about nutrition with a grain of salt and do my own research on it. Yes, some cat foods are way too high in protein and fat. But the recommendation on this forum is for a protein no higher than that of this hedgehog food - 35%. And that food is around the same level of fat that's recommended - 10% to 15%. Heck, it's even a little higher than some hedgehogs need - some need 10-12% to stay at a healthy weight. So that makes me discount his concerns on those two bits right away. There are better quality cat foods that match the protein & fat percentages of that food.

As far as fiber goes, I do agree with him. However, that's why we supplement insects. IMO, insects should be a regular part of the diet, not a treat. But most people only give them as treats anyway. But the exoskeletons of insects provide quite a bit of fiber, which takes away that concern. You can also add fiber with vegetable matter, but since (as far as we know) they don't eat a ton of veggies in the wild, insects are a better source & more easily digested (as long as you feed live or canned insects & not a ton at once).


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## lifequards (Mar 28, 2015)

Too long, Didn't read. I already know I got chewed out. 

But anyways, I have my buddy on Blue Buffalo. He and my dogs love it.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

It's not a good idea to be mouthy to the moderators of the forum, just saying. So cut it out, please and thank you. There's no need for that attitude on here, particularly towards people who are donating their time & efforts to helping people on this forum. 

And tl;dr - regardless of whether people on here have degrees or not, they have experience and research backing up their advice, which is plenty. There are many certified veterinarians that know very little about animal nutrition, much less hedgehog nutrition.

Liam1, I'm sorry for the slight derailment of your thread. I hope the posts above were still somewhat helpful. If you have more questions, feel free to ask.  I'm usually happy to discuss nutrition!


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

lifeguard maybe if you did take the time to read things you wouldn't think you're being chewed out. Its not the first time you've said that and I have yet to see a post where that happened. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are "chewing you out".


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## lifequards (Mar 28, 2015)

Hm? 

All I said was nobody here was a certified veterinarian. I'm sure vets pick up some sort of nutritional facts along the lines of their training.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Sadly, many vets don't pick up much information regarding exotic animal nutrition. I've personally had several "certified" exotic animal vets give me false information on feeding my reptiles, and one local vet told me several outright lies about ferret nutrition, despite her being considered a specialist, so that I would buy the food she carries in her practice.

When it comes to hedgehog nutrition, you just have to do your own research and find out what's best for your own hog. There are definitely some people on here with enough experience in the matter that I trust them more than my own vets, but it would be to your benefit to do some reading, and decide who these trustworthy people are. Compare what they say to what studies say hedgies eat in the wild, decide what you can afford and have time to prepare, and go from there.

Good luck!


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## writergirlmel (May 16, 2015)

Mazuri Insectivore Diet #5MK8 is what was recommended to me by a hedgie handler (and good friend of mine) at the San Diego Zoo. It is what they use there. I have not personally tried it since our hedgie isn't old enough to come home yet, but I intend to transition him to it when possible. The food runs about $40 for a 25 lb bag and can be purchased directly from Mazuri.


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## MomLady (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm not going to go into the nutritional problems with the Mazuri food, but please note these facts:

It's an awful lot of food to have around. You are going to have to freeze a good portion of it otherwise it's going to go stale before you can use it.

A LOT of hedgies won't even eat it. 

It's very hard, hedgies have a hard time eating it without added moisture.

It's very expensive.

It is more suited to European hedgehogs not ours.

One thing that has been neglected in all of this discussion is that you may have what you think is the best food possible, but you have to be flexible if your hedgehog will NOT eat it. They sometimes have other plans. :lol:

Or they will eat it for a few weeks and then quit. 

Or the manufacturer will change the formula, shape or packaging and your hedgie won't eat it. Chicken Soup for cats light has changed shapes at least twice since I was feeding it. 

Get the smallest amount possible and I would suggest a mix of several foods, just so that if your baby quits eating one of the ingredients, they will be at least eating something. Also in case of a recall or shortage. It's happened before.


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## writergirlmel (May 16, 2015)

Thank you for that information.

As I said, I haven't tried it. I'm a soon-to-be first-time hedgie mom. It's just what was recommended to me as it is what the advisor has experience with. I figured it was worth a shot and worth mentioning since the analysis on it looks closer to ideal than many of the cat foods I've seen. I have no idea if it's available in smaller quantities. The price I mentioned is just the one that stuck in my head. I'll have to check and decide from there.

Our breeder uses a Purina One Select dry cat food, and while it seems adequate, I feel like I can find better. 

Frankly, I like the idea of getting my cat and hedgie on the same food (at least in part). At least the cat isn't picky (unless it's the french fries she's stealing from my plate).


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## shinydistraction (Jul 6, 2014)

I don't know what it is vets like about Mazuri. I really don't. It was recommended to me by my vet (which was a recommendation to her by another vet who she says knows more about hedgehogs than she does), and I've seen people mention on here several times it was recommended by their vets. The food simply does not look good. At all. The analysis looks ok (protein is a smidge low, fat is about where it should be), but that's where it's good points end for me. Here are the ingredients:

Poultry by-product meal, ground soybean hulls, ground wheat, low ash poultry by product, dried beet pulp, rice flour, soybean meal, dried egg product, ground aspen, porcine animal fat, poultry fat, poultry digest (flavor), dried apple pomace, powdered cellulose, wheat germ, fish meal (menhaden), dried whey, shrimp meal, soybean oil, lecithin, brewers dried yeast, fish oil (menhaden), phosphoric acid, salt, dl-methionine, taurine, marigold extract, choline chloride, naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols (form of vitamin E; citric acid, rosemary extract), l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), inositol, d-alpha tocopheryl acetate (source of vitamin E), vitamin B12 supplement, niacin, manganous oxide, thiamin mononitrate, zinc oxide, calcium carbonate, ferrous carbonate, ferrous sulfate, copper sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, canthaxanthin (color), zinc sulfate, vitamin A acetate, folic acid, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, biotin, cholecalciferol (vitamin D3)

There's really no actual meat in it. The first ingredient is poultry by-product meal. It's not specific about the source, which means it could be chicken, turkey, pigeon. Anything really. Second it's a by-product meal. That means things like feet, beaks, stuff wild animals typically don't even eat. I mean seriously, gross. Then we've got things like wheat filler. And ground aspen? Really? Unless there's another plant by that name they tossed ground up wood in it.

Sorry, I'm not really an animal nutrition nut, but Mazuri just bugs the crap out of me. It's garbage food and it keeps getting recommended by vets. And when vets recommend things lots of people just take that as the gospel truth and don't do any research on their own.

Ugh, ok, rant over now.


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

One of my favorite diets is Jackie's (Soyala Amaya) natural hedgehog food. It's a good looking all natural diet and I really loved the thought and research that she put into it. I want to do something like for Penny when I get the chance. I would love to not have to buy as much kibble in the future. I'm a huge proponent for all natural diets or as close to nature as you can get. I feed a huge amount of insects to my hedgehogs from hornworms (tomato worms) to dubia roaches. I also feed a mix of three to four cat foods. Only two of my hedgehogs eat the same mix, one of them is on a high fat food and the other had a weird reaction to Natural Balance so I no longer feed her that. Its all about the individual hedgehog and the individual owner. Some have remote access to good foods, some are in countries where cat food and dog food aren't the best, some feed raw, other's feed homemade, some feed one kibble(Hedgehogs can be notoriously picky), other's feed multiple, Penny has accepted any food I mix in. 

One of the things that has become apparent to me, it's that experience is the key to knowing what is right for any animal. I started Penny on aspen bedding till she ate it, then she went on fleece. I love trying different wet foods as part of their nightly diets because I find that their pee is less strong with a little wet food in their diet. I do what I know based on my knowledge and when I don't know the people on this forum have never led me astray. :grin:


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Shinydistraction, you basically said everything I think about that food. :lol: It drives me NUTS that so many well-respected professionals seem to think it's good...and I'd love for a chance to ask them WHY they think a hedgehog should get a food with wood in it. Since when did insectivore translate to eating trees? :roll: 

And very well said, Desiree!


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## writergirlmel (May 16, 2015)

What natural hedgehog food are you referring to, Desiree? 

Food is quickly becoming the most confusing thing about making sure we are prepared. 

And, unfortunately, it does not shock me that something used at SDZ is, shall we say, less than great. They may be a really reputable zoo, but I've heard more than a few horror stories that have shed an unflattering light on the place. I suppose it was a bit naive to think that at least the animals' diets were immune. To be fair to my friend, she did handle the hedgehogs, but her primary responsibilities were with a different group of animals (until she quit as a matter of conscience), so she may not have been any more knowledgeable in reading a label for hedgehog nutrition requirements than I am (which is, obviously, pretty terrible -- but I'm learning) and probably assumed it was the best choice.


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/72978-our-raw-adventure-13.html#post644249

This is the link to the exact post that Jackie posted which has her menu on it. The thread is a great read too. Many of us have tried to do a raw diet and many of us have had great success.

Food is definitely a hard topic to discuss and figure out. I spend a lot of time looking a labels. But we are all here to help.


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## writergirlmel (May 16, 2015)

Thank you!


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