# Questions about SCC in Hedgehogs



## keschete (Nov 6, 2008)

This is long, sorry, Nancy I would really appreciate your input.

Background info:
I have two 4 1/2 year old hedgehogs. I have huge cages, wheels, fleece bedding and provide a high quality diet of mixed cat foods and other items. Both my hedgehogs have had few problems over the years and up until this last month both were healthy.

My female, Thistle, really hates being handled and I discovered that I am very allergic to my hedgies after I already owned them for a few months. I am so allergic that I have to take benadryl 30 minutes before cleaning the cages and I have to bath them before handling. I break out in hives and my face puffs up.

But, I rescue animals and I do what is needed. I have never even thought about re-homming them. But, I do not play with them as much as many owners, though they seem happy on their own, without me. 

The problem:

Thistle, my 4 1/2 year old female started loosing a little weight. I make sure I visually see each hedgehog daily. She is sleeping more, eating less. She is visibly thin, she was always a plump hedgie. So this evening, she came out to eat after I changed her food and water and I sat quietly and watched her. She has a visible swelling of the lower jaw. Her teeth are okay. She won't let me examine her throughly. So by observing I see a 1 cm area protruding from her right, lower, central mandible.

I am an ENT Nurse Practitioner and humans who get Squamous Cell Carcinoma have poor prognosis. I am sure this is a tumor. Her front teeth and gums look great, but she balls up if I try to look in her mouth.

I am going to bring her to a vet this week. The local vet is not super experienced with hedgies. They are okay, but not my regular exotic vet. I can't take off this week and bring her to New Orleans to the specialty vet.

I just want an opinion from experienced hedgie owners. If this is what I think and she has a SCC tumor in the lower jaw, would it just be more kind to put her to sleep, or should I make her suffer for 2 weeks until I can get to the specialist in New Orleans?

I watched her tonight and she is having a really hard time eating. She doesn't like soft foods. She is picky about what kibble she does eat, she sorts through and only eats certain shapes and smells. All the kibble is small. 

She seems weak and I was in tears, because I had not noticed this sooner. I am certain she has SCC and I knew as soon as I saw the underside of her jaw that this is the problem.

If I do get my vet to put her to sleep, does anyone know the best method, so that I can advise my vet? Should I wait until the 28th and go to New Orleans? I don't want her to suffer, but I don't want to have someone botch euthanasia. ANy advice for those who have faced this would be appreciated.

Thank you for your help, Kaya


----------



## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Do not and I repeat, do not beat yourself up over not noticing her jaw. Oral tumours can appear from one day to the next. They are extremely fast growing and you probably did not miss it because it most likely was not there. 

There is a chance it could be an infected tooth/teeth but unlikely. I would take her to your local vet, have her gassed and her mouth checked. Usually once you can get a good look in the mouth a tumour is obvious to see. If it is a tumour and she were mine, I'd have her euthanized without waking her up. Oral tumours do not have a good prognosis even when caught in the very early stages. Since the swelling is obvious, it is most likely past the stage that surgery might give her a few more months. At her age and if she is already weak, IMO, surgery would not be an option. 

To euthanize a hedgehog, they have to be gassed first. It depends on the hedgehog what cone my vet uses. For those that ball up, she uses a dog cone and puts it right over the whole quilly ball. For those who are relaxed, she uses a face cone. It sounds like your girl would need the dog sized cone. Ask your vet if you can go in while he works on her so you can see in her mouth too and be with her at the end if that is what is needed. I'm in with every single one of mine. Euthanasia on a hedgehog is no different than any other small animal, except that they must be gassed and be asleep before administering the shot. Otherwise, hedgie will ball up on the needle.

I'm sorry you are going through this but you have done great keeping them despite your allergies. Are you allergic to both or one in particular? Of all the hedgehogs I've had I was very allergic to Smokey's urine. I had to clean his cage/litter box daily or I would have an asthma attack. Thankfully, he was litter trained on paper towel so it was easy to do. 

Hugs


----------



## keschete (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanks for the fast reply. My regular vet has late hours on Thursdays. So I might be able to get her in tomorrow. They have gassed my male Thorn and x-rayed him for suspected kidney stones. They are okay for simple stuff.

If I can't get in tomorrow I will try Saturday am. I really appreciate your opinion. I really think it is a tumor, it seems the teeth would be obvious and I can see the front teeth and gums and they look great. 

I am more allergic to Thistle and she is a grumpy girl. So it has actually been okay for the both of us. She is happy to not be played with. My male, Thorn, is not as bad. I get hives just picking up Thistle. I start puffing up and itching cleaning her cage. With Thorn, I can handle him for short periods and clean his cage without much problem. Mine are both paper towel trained, but Thorn loves to be a messy boy and sometimes does disgusting things. I think that is all boy critters  :roll: 

It is always hard letting go of a pet. I noticed the weight loss and thought she was just getting old. Then I sat down tonight and really watched and I knew right away. 

I rescue exotics and dogs. So I have Sugar Gliders, Hedgies, Bearded Dragons, Frilled Dragons, Min Pins, Dachshunds and I have 3 rescued cats. :mrgreen: Most exotics don't tolerate the owner not noticing things. I know that and that is why I felt guilty. I make sure that I eyeball or handle every single creature, every day....all 21 of them. 

Thnaks so much, if you think of anything else, let me know. Kaya


----------



## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

As Nancy has already said, please don't beat your self up about this or blame yourself. I've dealt with this 3 times now. Two I didn't know anything was wrong with them till they had an eye bulging, both had oral tumours. The 3rd was my Sadie, I did notice she was losing weight, but thought it was just teeth issues because she was almost 4 years old, she would eat softened food and was gaining weight back when one day she had a swelling on her jaw, the next day it was noticably larger. In just two days she went from no swelling to significant swelling. She stayed with me, on pain meds, till she started to have oral bleeding, then I took her for her final trip to the vet. Its so hard when this happens, I'm very sorry you're going through this, but even with everyday handling I didn't notice anything other than the weight loss. 

My vet euthanizes hedgies the same way that Nancy's does. 

Hedgie hugs


----------



## keschete (Nov 6, 2008)

nikki said:


> As Nancy has already said, please don't beat your self up about this or blame yourself. I've dealt with this 3 times now. Two I didn't know anything was wrong with them till they had an eye bulging, both had oral tumours. The 3rd was my Sadie, I did notice she was losing weight, but thought it was just teeth issues because she was almost 4 years old, she would eat softened food and was gaining weight back when one day she had a swelling on her jaw, the next day it was noticably larger. In just two days she went from no swelling to significant swelling. She stayed with me, on pain meds, till she started to have oral bleeding, then I took her for her final trip to the vet. Its so hard when this happens, I'm very sorry you're going through this, but even with everyday handling I didn't notice anything other than the weight loss.
> 
> My vet euthanizes hedgies the same way that Nancy's does.
> 
> Hedgie hugs


Thank you. I guess I really just feel responsible in general for all my creatures.

I am so concerned about all animals, including wildlife that I spent every weekend this summer caring for oiled birds due to the BP oil spill. I have "sucker" written on my forehead when it comes to creatures, especially wildlife and exotics. I try to do everything right.

I know it isn't my fault, it just made me feel really sick in the pit of my stomach. UGH! I know this is common.....I am just sad. Thanks for the Hedgie Hugs! I am sorry you had to go through this 3 times....that has to be hard. Hedgies are really fascinating creatures.


----------



## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. I do appreciate that you are posting this, however, because it is something that the rest of us can learn from. I hope that you will let us know about Thistle. And again, I'm so, so sorry.


----------



## keschete (Nov 6, 2008)

PJM said:


> I'm so sorry that you are going through this. I do appreciate that you are posting this, however, because it is something that the rest of us can learn from. I hope that you will let us know about Thistle. And again, I'm so, so sorry.


Thank you! I will post and let everyone know. I have actually been a longtime member/lurker of the forum. It is sad, but I want what is best for her....so if euthanasia is best, then I will have no regrets, she is on her wheel now and I looked again at her jaw. It is very obvious....the mass.

To everyone reading these forums, this forum is the best source of up to date info on hedgehogs. The LSU vet school actually goes "by the book" with recommendations to our local vets.

When Thorn had some blood in his urine and I wanted to try Royal Canin Urinary diet, they said I should feed him commercial hedgehog food.

I actually feed a blend of Royal Canin SO 33 urinary rx food, katzenflocken, blue buffalo, wellness light and light royal canin cat food. This has been a staple for my cats and hedgies for the last 4 years and everyone is doing well. I use the light, premium cat foods and feed live insects.

I really appreciate this forum and think that we are probably on the cutting edge as far as care. Many Vets underestimate the information that we share and dismiss it. I have learned many things here over the last 4 years and especially the diet recommendations. Commercial hedgehog food is not appropriate. Listen to Nancy and other breeders. They know what they are doing!

It doesn't make the fact that Thistle has obvious cancer any easier and even though she isn't a cuddly pet, I am dredding the Vet visit. I wish there was some easier, better way that I could take care of this. I am such a mother to all my pets....it is hard....I love them all.....

I am a firm beliver that all creatures have a place in heaven,,,,otherwise, I don't want to go!

On the bright side of things, someone has a min pin pup that is 9 weeks old and they want to give her up because she isn't house broken yet and I will go pick her up tomorrow. So maybe I can get her shots and give her a new life as a life passes.....

Thanks for everyones input and I will update you! Kaya


----------



## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

We've had so many oral tumour here that at one point in time I was starting to think there was something I was doing that was causing it. Initial count and we were above the average but then I removed those rescues who arrived with an oral tumour and those who developed one within a couple of months. Removing them from the equation and we went to a below average number. 

Our first was old Pagen. I discovered it on Tuesday and on Friday we said goodbye. It doubled in size daily and I swear I could see it growing. 
One little rescue gal developed a lump just ahead of her front leg where there is a nipple. I thought it was a mammary tumour but it came on within days. As my vet felt around she said it appeared to be an enlarged lymph node and back we went to gas her. Once gassed we discovered a huge oral tumour under her tongue. There was no swelling visible from the outside. 

There have been tumours that didn't touch their teeth but the roof of the mouth was mush, tumours that pushed their eye, one tumour started on one side of the jaw, went in a line across the roof of the mouth and was into the jaw at the other side. One tumour had actually cracked his jaw. I have found that most of the time, once it is visible on the outside, it's huge on the inside. 

I have had surgery done once and never again. It was an old rescue gal who arrived with a very slight swelling of her lower jaw. Initially I wasn't sure it was a swelling or just a saggy old jaw but after being gassed it was a very small tumour. Because it was so small, we felt it worth doing surgery. Despite her being 5 years old, she breezed through the surgery as if nothing had happened. The tumour was much larger than appeared on the outside so not all could be removed. Three weeks to the day of the surgery, we were back to help her cross. The tumour had exploded in size and she was one of those what if situations that I beat myself up for doing the surgery. I still wonder if we hadn't done the surgery if she might have survived a bit longer. There are always what ifs.


----------



## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

I would only like to add that I too am so sorry for your pain. But I too also admire your love of these little ones and how you put their needs above yourself. You have received advise from the best, and I would take great comfort in that too. Rest well.


----------



## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

SCC is very common. I had one which I noticed a pin head size spot on her lower right jaw on Friday. Saturday I had her in to the vet, we scheduled her for surgery on Monday to remove the small mass since it was tiny and seemed localized at the time. Monday I called my vet to cancel the surgery as 2 other masses on the upper right and lower left jaws appeared. We went back to the vet to get prednisone to try to reduce some of the swelling to give her more quality time and metacam to reduce pain when the masses got larger. Within 3 weeks we had her euthantized as the mass had moved behind her eye and her eye was beginning to protrude. A gross examination of the body afterward showed the mass had moved down her throat as well. It would not have been long before she would have had breathing problems.

Cancer in hedgehogs is bad. Every hedgehog owner will encounter it at some point if they keep hedgehogs long enough. I have only had 1 die from something other than a cancer or problems caused by tumors. And that one was a spider bite to the face. Some cancers are "better" in that they give us more time to prepare to say good bye, however SCCs have typically been some of the worst. Just like Nancy, I start to wonder what I'm doing wrong each time a cancer shows up. 

I have had long discussions with oncologists a couple of times, the last time was with a hedgehog which had cancer show up at 1 year 1 week. We have discussed various treatment methods (including radiation: which had a price tag of $9K, and a 4 week hospital stay). The best option our little ones have currently is surgical removal. Not always an option but it is the one method that can give our little ones the chance of a cure currently. 

However, I would recommend having the mass examined. Sometimes you get lucky. I had a mass removed from one of my hedgehog's jaws and it turned out to be a benign papilloma which was still small enough that removal was curative.


----------



## keschete (Nov 6, 2008)

I wanted to let you all know that I finally got Thistle to the Vet today. 

I tried to get my regular exotic vet to squeeze me in Thrusday to look at her, but despite the fact that I spend thousands of dollars with them each year, they couldn't give me 15 minutes. :roll: 

So I called my new exotic vet. Dr. Greg Rich in New Orleans. He is an hour away, and even though he was booked, he squeezed us in. I use him for my Bearded and Frilled Dragons. He actually owned hedgehogs at one time.

He has an exam room with the gas anesthesia set up. He put her under and we both looked at her jaw. She had a huge Osteosarcoma that spanned from one side of the lower mandible to the other. It was hard to see if she tucked her head down. It wasn't Squamous Cell. He told me that the Osteosarcomas can actually grow faster that the SCC.

We both agreed that it was not treatable. So he euthanized her while she was under. He actually only charged me $25 for the whole thing. My local vet would have charged me at least $100.

From now on, I will be recommending Dr. Greg Rich at West Esplanade Vet Clinic in Metarie, Louisiana to anyone who lives in South Louisiana. He was wonderful! 

I was upset, but I am relieved that I did not let her suffer. I will keep a close eye on Thorn. Hopefully he will live for a few more years.

Thank you everyone for your support! On a positive note, I rescued an 9 week old Min Pin pup on Thursday. Her owner was going to bring her to the animal shelter because she was peeing in the house....go figure, she is a puppy. She is sleeping next to me as I type.


----------



## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm so sorry to read this. But you are right, at least she isn't suffering. These things can grow so fast that it is easy to let them go for too long. May Thorn continue to live a healthy, cancer free life for a long time to come.


----------



## Olympia (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm so sorry about Thistle. :| Congratulations on rescuing that little puppy, he's lucky to have you.


----------



## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry that you had to let Thistle go. I also hope Thorn lives a long, full, happy life. And I hope that you will continue to be a part of this forum.


----------

