# Recreating a 'natural' diet, advice?



## MimiM (Jan 15, 2015)

Hello there! I'm new to this site, but I've been skulking around for a bit without registering. I currently don't own a hedgehog, because I want to learn as MUCH as I can, and wait for the law in PA to change so that my hedgehog can be as healthy and safe as possible.

On to the real question: I am looking to recreate a 'natural' diet for my future hedgehog. I already do this for my cat, hermies, and fish; it really seems to make a difference in their health. Looking at the two hedgehogs that were crossed to create the 'pet' hedgehogs most people have, as well as the European hedgehog, all three diets seem pretty similar (compared and cut from multiple sources):

Four Toed Hedgehog: insects, grubs, snails, spiders, small amounts of plant matter, occasional small vertebrates such as frogs, small rodents, or lizards. Also recorded eating 'toxic' prey such as scorpions or venomous snakes. 

Algerian or North African Hedgehog: Very little known, thought to be insectivorous (would fit in with other hedgehog diets).

European Hedgehog: most insects-especially millipedes and beetles, slugs and snails, grass snakes and even vipers, frogs, fish, small rodents, baby birds and birds' eggs, fruits, mushrooms, occasionally carrion. 


So it looks like all three species eat mainly insects (most likely due to the ease of access to insects compared to rodents, amphibians, or birds), augmented with other proteins and the occasional bit of plant matter or fungus. Carrion is probable in all three diets as well.

Judging off this, I am going to assume that even the hybrid pet hedgehog needs a diet with a high water content, high levels of protein (and the fats that go with the protein sources), a reasonably high level of fiber (insects, especially hardshelled insects, are very high in both kinds of fiber), and a moderate to low level of carbohydrates. 

For vitamin needs, calcium and phophorus would need to be suprisingly high (wild insects are very high in both). Iron and zinc would be high as well, due to the moderately high levels of both in most caterpillars and other larval stages of insects. For the rest of the vitamins and minerals, we can assume that a diet comprised mostly of VARIED types of insects with the occasional amphibian, bird, egg, or rodent thrown in would cover most IF those food sources were gut loaded appropriately. The occasional fruit morsel, fungi, or fresh greenery might also be necessary. 

Judging by all that, the 'final' diet for a pet hedgehog would be: 

-A varied selection of both wild and 'farmed' insects, gut loaded with calcium and antioxidant enriched food to mimic the diet the insects would have in the wild
-An occasional WHOLE, pre-killed prey such as a fuzzy mouse, lizard, frog, or chick.
-An occasional egg for the quinine
-An occasional treat of heart for the taurine (because I worry about that sort of thing)
-Daily small amounts of varied fruits, greens or even fungi

These foods could be fed in two big meals, or in multiple small hiding places around the cage to stimulate 'hunting'.



So what is everyones thoughts on this? Any suggestions or personal experiences?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Overall I agree! However, I would highly suggest avoiding wild insects. You can't control where they've been, so they could very well contain parasites or could have pesticides in/on them. I would stick with farmed insects only. I would be interested in knowing what specific insects you were thinking of as well. Personally I'd be a bit hesitant to go with mostly insects due to the limited range we have available from safe sources, and because I'm not sure I've ever seen any kind of analysis of what vitamins, etc. are contained in different insects? I know I've seen some that state the main things, such as protein, moisture, fat, calcium, and phosphorus, but not much else.

Since you mentioned being around on the site for a while already, I'm guessing you may have already seen this sticky, but just in case you haven't... http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/23066-raw-home-cooked-diets.html You might be interested in the last forum thread link, where I discussed a website that has a lot of insects available for human food. I don't think anyone has contacted them yet to inquire about being able to buy the insects roasted without any added spices or salt, or being able to get them canned without seasoning. But if you're interested in doing so, please let us know what they say!! I'm really curious to know whether they'd be a good source for those of us wanting more variety, and if no one has contacted them by the time I'm preparing for another hedgehog (hopefully before the end of the year), I plan to do so.

And you may have seen this also, but Kimberly's book http://westcoasthedgehogs.com/files/hedgehogbook/index.html has a section for home-cooked diets that includes a pie chart of recommended protein, etc. amounts for hedgehogs, and I believe also a chart of recommended vitamin & mineral amounts.

Also, I'm curious, do you happen to know of any frog species that are commonly used as feeders? I don't believe I know of any, though I know I've heard of people using green anole lizards as feeders. I know it's relatively easy to find whole mice and chicks for feeders, though.


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## MimiM (Jan 15, 2015)

_Overall I agree! However, I would highly suggest avoiding wild insects. You can't control where they've been, so they could very well contain parasites or could have pesticides in/on them. I would stick with farmed insects only. I would be interested in knowing what specific insects you were thinking of as well. Personally I'd be a bit hesitant to go with mostly insects due to the limited range we have available from safe sources, and because I'm not sure I've ever seen any kind of analysis of what vitamins, etc. are contained in different insects? I know I've seen some that state the main things, such as protein, moisture, fat, calcium, and phosphorus, but not much else.
_

Oh I am sorry. I meant wild as in *whatever bugs my hedgehog would happen to gobble while lounging out in my yard with me*, not that I would be actively feeding them! The local pet store near to me carries 6 different types of live feeder insects, including: mealworms, waxworms, crickets, rice-flour beetles, hornworm caterpillars and roaches. You can buy them as mixed bags, and then store them in the fridge a day or two to make them dormant until you need them. Between those insects (all of whom are fed a different diet at the store so that people can get a wide spread of antioxidants and vitamins), and the frozen lizards, chicks and pinkys that the store also carries, I'm reasonably sure the hedgehog would not be lacking for varied nutrients. And the frogs....well as mean as this is, my outside pond gets literally hundreds of baby frogs a year, all of whom eat each other. The pond is monitored so I know the water is clean, and as much weird stuff that hedgehogs in the WILD eat, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't kill pet ones to have a little froggy or two that happened to get found by me. God knows what my kitty eats, and she's about as wild as a sofa.

_Since you mentioned being around on the site for a while already, I'm guessing you may have already seen this sticky, but just in case you haven't... Raw and Home-Cooked Diets You might be interested in the last forum thread link, where I discussed a website that has a lot of insects available for human food. I don't think anyone has contacted them yet to inquire about being able to buy the insects roasted without any added spices or salt, or being able to get them canned without seasoning. But if you're interested in doing so, please let us know what they say!! I'm really curious to know whether they'd be a good source for those of us wanting more variety, and if no one has contacted them by the time I'm preparing for another hedgehog (hopefully before the end of the year), I plan to do so._

I have not yet contacted any of the three places that I know carry human-grade dried insects, but I want to! It would be wonderful to have a pre-made mix of freeze dried buggies to use on days someone is sick or just too busy. And I don't see why they couldn't just leave the seasoning off a tiny batch, it really wouldn't hurt their business at all. 
_
And you may have seen this also, but Kimberly's book http://westcoasthedgehogs.com/files/...ook/index.html has a section for home-cooked diets that includes a pie chart of recommended protein, etc. amounts for hedgehogs, and I believe also a chart of recommended vitamin & mineral amounts._

I did see it! It was very useful, though I am slightly wary of the carbohydrate levels suggested. I feel as though they should be a bit lower than listed, since so many people have trouble with chubby hedgehogs.

_Also, I'm curious, do you happen to know of any frog species that are commonly used as feeders? I don't believe I know of any, though I know I've heard of people using green anole lizards as feeders. I know it's relatively easy to find whole mice and chicks for feeders, though._

Like I said, pond froggies might be struck by the hand of fate occasionally whilst they're still small. I'd do frogs VERY rarely, just as a treat. Who knows, a hedgehog raised by the breeder on kibble might not even eat any of this.


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## Nick120180 (Oct 27, 2014)

If you go down this route please blog your experiences. I'm sure kibble is the reason for hedgehogs propensity for cancer and gastrointestinal issues and am determined to wean mine off it. Unfortunately since so little is known about these little quill balls it's hard to know exactly what your trying to mimick.


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

I specifically breed a certain species of frog, Frejervarya limnochelys that i feed off to my snakes, tarantulas and hedgehogs. They readily eat commercial fishfood or even dead feeder bugs making them easu to maintain. Where they're native (I breed them in the Philippines then let my cousin ship them in styro boxes to me here in Bahrain), they breed all year round. I just use 4 large plastic bins filled with half an inch of water (those 4' x 2' x 2') with massive undergravel filters and an outside filter fit for 40 gal tanks.

As for the scorpions, my H.hottentotta has grown to an exponential population that my hedgehogs dont mind crunching on once a week.

I've fed baby quails to hedgehogs too as they are the smallest avian feeder possible here but they're kinda bloody and they're too cute for me -__-

Feeding off dubias is still the safest and healthiest though.


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## tony21 (Apr 8, 2014)

I wouldn't take my word as gospel, but I've done this will snails with no issues in the past!

If you take your bugs from the wild, and breed them out a generation or 2. Would that not get rid of the parasite's? Like I said I did this with snails awhile back, when I used them as feeders. I don't see why this wouldn't work, but I wouldn't know if this works for everything? 

If you can find farmed bugs, and other things you plane to feed. I would go that route if at all possible!:grin:


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm not sure if that would definitely get rid of parasites (I could see parasites possibly passing from parents to offspring), but I would definitely feel safer about doing that than about feeding wild-caught insects or letting your hedgehog eat ones they catch outside. IMO, it's best to prevent them from catching & eating wild insects to the best of your ability when they're outside.

Also, I wouldn't do an entire meal of freeze-dried insects unless you add water to them. I'm not sure if they would necessarily rehydrate with water like other food does, but I would assume so. But even with a hedgehog used to eating mostly insects as a staple diet, an entire meal of freeze-dried insects is just asking for constipation or a dangerous impaction if you don't add moisture back into them before feeding.

And completely agreed, it would be great if you started a thread or possibly a blog or something like that to keep updated if you ever do this with a hedgehog! We're slowly starting to get more people that are doing raw/cooked more natural diets with their hedgehogs and getting some more information on what works & what doesn't, but the more information and experience we have shared, the better! I'm seeing more and more people interested in this route now that a few people have shared their experiences with it, and I think having information out there encourages others.


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## tony21 (Apr 8, 2014)

I agree, in order to do this you would need to do your research. Find out what to watch out for, and weather it Can be bred out? So I would be careful.

It would be really Cool to see how this works out for you! If I new enough about this stuff I would love to make the switch!


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

I'm actually happy to see more and more people buying frog legs and snails just to feed off to their hedgies. It's a huge adjustment but i know those keepers are seeing the big difference


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

There's actually a butcher that's about two hours from me, I found them while searching for resources for my dog's raw diet. They sell all kinds of exotic meats, and while most of them are too expensive for my dog's diet, they do have frog legs listed. I have the store bookmarked, so I'll have to check into ordering legs for my next hedgehog! Though I have no idea what to do with them if hedgie doesn't like them, they come in a 5lb box! :lol:


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## tony21 (Apr 8, 2014)

Lilysmommy said:


> There's actually a butcher that's about two hours from me, I found them while searching for resources for my dog's raw diet. They sell all kinds of exotic meats, and while most of them are too expensive for my dog's diet, they do have frog legs listed. I have the store bookmarked, so I'll have to check into ordering legs for my next hedgehog! Though I have no idea what to do with them if hedgie doesn't like them, they come in a 5lb box! :lol:


Eat em lol, they're really tasty!:lol:


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

Just send them to me! My ferrets eat frog legs! I'm always curious if my hedgies would like some of the meals I prep for my ferret. I'll try frog legs first.


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

Wahahaha! You do realize they're also edible to humans, right? 

They could easily be breaded and deep-fried like chicken as well as stewed but I'd rather go with the former lol


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I know they are, I'm just uncertain as to whether I want to try them or not! :lol: I promise I'll let you guys know if I ever get frog legs & try them!


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## tony21 (Apr 8, 2014)

Tongue_Flicker said:


> Wahahaha! You do realize they're also edible to humans, right?
> 
> They could easily be breaded and deep-fried like chicken as well as stewed but I'd rather go with the former lol


Your making my mouth water lol:lol:


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## MomLady (Aug 14, 2010)

Before I went vegetarian, we were vacationing in Florida with the inlaws. 

Went out to dinner, I ordered the seafood combo plate and there were frog legs on it. 

I couldn't eat them (hubby did!) because all I could think of was Kermit the frog in a wheelchair! :-o

Sometimes these ideas just pop in my head.

But if your hedgie was eating pinkies and raw chicken, I bet they would LOVE frog legs.


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

MomLady said:


> Before I went vegetarian, we were vacationing in Florida with the inlaws.
> 
> Went out to dinner, I ordered the seafood combo plate and there were frog legs on it.
> 
> ...


Great now i'm gonna having images of kermit the frog in a wheelchair lol


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