# Possible Lymphoma



## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

First off, Merry Christmas Everyone! Now, to my girl: I'm visiting my parents for Christmas and noticed that there has been a lack of pee in Stella's cage. I always have her Storm Bucket Wheel on top of paper towels, and every night the paper towels are pretty drenched in pee which I change daily. Anyway, the past few nights this has not been the case- there has been no pee on the paper towels. It smells like there may be a little on her cage liner- but not enough for me to actually feel. I took her out and examined her today, and there was a ssmall amount of crustiness over her urethra. I whiped he down with a warm cloth, the crustiness easily was removed, and she ended up pooping for me but not peeing. I now have paper towels lining her entire cage so I can see if she pees at all during the day or tonight. She did have a bit of a hard time getting the poop out of her, and there is not much poop on the wheel either. There was some poop elsewhere in the cage, but still..not as much as usual. She appears to be drinking normally, and I tried to do the pinch test for dehydration on her but had some trouble really getting an accurate idea of whether or not she was dehydrated (I'm not sure if the pinch test is really an accurate way to measure dehydration when it comes to hogs - I'm used to caring for newborn kittens and puppies but not necessarily hoglets when it comes to dehydration). Anyway, unfortunately we did not have any pumpkin in the house and all of the stores are closed. I do have applesauce baby food- should I give her some of this to get things moving? I also have the critical care for hedgehogs although I'm not sure how long that stuff stays good for and I've had it for awhile. Any help as far as getting things moving would be great- I'm wondering what other people think could be the cause of this and if giving her some applesauce baby food or something else would help with urinating (or just defecating). Thanks in advance,

I forgot to mention: besides being in a new environment with her, I did get her a heat lamp with a blue moonlight (75 watt) to keep her cage at 76 degrees. In Buffalo, the room she is in is a constant 76, so when I came here I had a heating pad under her and then purchased the heat lamp the day before yesterday.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

It's possible she sees the blue light and is refusing to come out. Some hedgies need absolute darkness and will not come out if there is a hint of light, infrared or not. Try exchanging the bulb for a ceramic heat emitter bulb tomorrow and see if her activity improves.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

So I have the heating pad under her and turned off the lamp- still absolutely not even a drop of pee..even when I tried to stimulate her again. I really computed how long its been and its been around 2.5 days..this is really concerning. If there is no urine in the cage by tomorrow morning I am finding a vet in the area and taking her in- I really don't think there is anything I can do and that she may need a catheter put in. I have just been having the worst luck lately with my rescues- Chloe the kitten ran me over 1000 less than a month ago from what was possibly a faulty spay surgery and my other rescue ran me over 500! Thank goodness for Christmas money from the relatives! I really hope that the vet is knowledgeable as far as hedgies go. Anyway, is there anything else anyone can suggest? She is acting completely normal- active, eating, drinking still (maybe not as much as usual but still sipping a bit so far). Has anyone had any experience with blockage when it comes to the urinary tract? Does this sound extremely serious and is there anything else I could/should be doing for her at this point? I really hope that she is okay and isn't in any pain if she is experiencing some sort of blockage :-(


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## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

Maybe try a warm bath? It would help clear some of the crusties, maybe loosen the blockage? At least stimulate her to potty. Mine always thinks the bath is a giant toilet. Chances are if she hasn't peed in that long you'll be able to either see it or smell it in the water.

Good luck, I hope she's okay. I know how vet bills rack up quick. Two horses, two cats, a dog, and a hedgehog whom are all mischievous and destructive seem to find ways to injure themselves :roll:


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## nualasmom (Nov 13, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

Not sure what just happened, I had just written a long response, but I lost it  Anyway, long story short, I just had to take my Nuala to the vet for what ended up being a urinary tract infection. Although she had not yet completely stopped peeing, I noticed that she wasn't eating the amount she usually does and that over a weekend, she lost more than 20 grams. since she's only 3 months and 235 grams to begin with, I got nervous. I took her to the vet that Monday afternoon and when she peed and pooed there, he tested it and noticed some blood in her urine. She's taking Baytril for the next 2 weeks as well as a medicine I can't remember (it's down in the fridge). At any rate, she seems back to normal and is peeing the amount she used to.

Maybe yours has a UTI or something as well. I'm not sure what could help in the meantime until you get her to the vet. Wish I could be more help. I hope you're able to find a vet in the area you're in and that she is able to pee soon. I know that several years ago, my cat had a similar problem. He wasn't peeing at all and i found out that there were crystals in his urine. He ended up being ok (after a lot of money and prescription cat food later).


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

First off, thanks for the advice everyone. Stella went to the vet yesterday- she was anesthetized in order to get a really good exam. The doc did not feel anything off, and her teeth looked great. He did cause her to urinate when he was feeling around her bladder- and he said that the bladder was not extremely full. THe consensus was that it is not a blockage problem, but instead a lack of liquid consumption. She has been drinking quite a lot less, and the night before I brought her to the vet she did not even touch her food or water. The vet sent me home with an antibiotic and gave her some LRS subcutaneously before I left. I syringe fed her some water last night, but am going to pick up some pedialyte today. She did not pee at all last night, and if she doesn't pee tonight either I am going to request that he sends me home with some LRS so I can continue to give it to her once or twice a day to make sure she doesn't become too dehydrated. He figured she was not drinking because she feels "under the weather" from traveling- still I am concerned as to why a young, healthy hedgehog would simply stop drinking. Anyway, I'm nervous she did not pee last night. She did pee at the vets office when I was at the counter paying, and pooped as well- but her cage has no pee or poop from last night. Does anyone think that this is a situation where I should start giving subcutaneous fluids today, or does my idea to wait till tomorrow to see if she pees tonight is okay? It does take a couple days before the antibiotic will take effect, but dehydration is a fast killer in small animals from my experience and she is not getting a substantial amount from the syringe compared to the pretty large amount of fluids she would normally drink everynight. Thanks in advance, I'm so worried about my little girl :-(


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

I've been giving her pedialyte and she usually foams as I'm doing it so it ends up pushing a lot of the fluids back out. Last night I mixed up some gerber chicken baby food with lots of water for her, hoping she would go crazy for it like my past hog. When I woke up this morning, it looks like she literally did not move a muscle all night! She is a big cage shuffler, and everything is exactly in place, even the paper towels she goes so far to destroy! No pee, and no poop. She did poop and pee on my last evening, however that is probably from the intake of fluids the doctor gave her. Anyway, If I were in buffalo I would just go pick up fluids, but since I'm in Syracuse at a new doctor, I really hope he gives me something to keep her substantially hydrated until she starts drinking on her own. I'm also wondering if it has something to do with the lighting. When I tried putting her heating pad on instead of the moonlight, she seemed the same amount active as the night before (with the light). But with her not moving at all last night, and the moonlight on all of the time I'm wondering if it is somehow messing up her internal clock is getting affected? I've seen so many newborns (kittens and puppy newborns that is) die quickly from dehydration and I'm worried about my gal.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

Did you pick up any Hills A/D or carnivore care while at the vets? Since she's not eating and drinking on her own, it's time to start syringe feeding her, as otherwise, it's not just dehydration, but fatty liver disease as well. If you don't have either, normal canned cat food is fine but just harder to syringe as it normally has chunks of food. You can also mix with some more water to increase her water intake as well, since she'd probably be more willing to be syringed food than water. You can also soak her kibble and then mush it up into something that can be syringed.

And if Nancy, Kalandra and Niki haven't posted something here when you check again, send them a pm. They have much more experience with this kind of stuff.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

Boy I wish I saw this before I went to the vet :-( I do not have any A/D on me, but I do have Authority kitten wet food which is pretty non-chunky which is one of the reasons I get it for little ones. At the vet today, I picked up some LRS to give subcutaneously once a day. She is on Trimeth twice a day (I've never used Trimeth before personally, so I'm not sure how broad or narrow range of an antibiotic it is :-/ )
I will try doing the syringe feeding with the wet food and water, and leave some in her cage. It is very strange because during playtime she is extremely alert and active, she does not show any symptom of feeling ill and the only inclination that something is wrong is during night time. This all started suddenly when I came to syracuse, and added a heat lamp with a moonlight bulb. I did get a daylight bulb this morning to put in during the day and switch out for the moonlight at night. I am stumped as to what could be causing this sudden change in eating and drinking habits, when she otherwise looks healthy. I know hogs, like other exotics hide their illnesses well..but I have see sick hedgies and she just does not shown any signs when you have her out an about- not that that really means much. I told the doctor that if she has not improved by Friday I will make an appointment to get blood drawn for her Monday to see if that shows anything. I always hate having blood drawn especially if they have to do it through the jugular. I'm concerned, she's only 5 months old...I wish I had more ideas as to what was causing this. I'll send them a PM if I haven't heard back from them soon. Thanks very much for the advice, it is much appreciated.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

A few thoughts, I've had hedgehogs stop drinking for a few days when we changed the source of their water. I always take water from home when we travel now. If you are using tap water, tap water can have off flavors due to the minerals in it. You may want to try some bottled or filtered water if you aren't already.

Try making a weak chamomile tea. Ensure the tea is 100% chamomile and I'd make it with reverse osmosis or bottled water just in case it is the tap water causing this. Next to her water bowl, offer the tea in a bowl in her cage. If she doesn't like straight chamomile, you can add a bit of mint and a dash of honey to it, but I've always been able to get them to drink it straight if it is weak. Simply brew the tea (sweeten or add mint if necessary) and allow to cool. Chamomile is a digestive stimulate, it can also encourage them to drink more. Chamomile also has a calming effect, so if she is stressed from traveling it may help her feel better.

In addition to liquids, offer more wet foods. Fruits like watermelon can help hydrate and if she starts to feel better she may start to drink more on her own.

ETA: If you cannot get Hill's A/D any canned cat food that is a pate tends to work fine. I use Innova cat & kitten canned. If you add just a little water, stir the food and smash it with a spoon, it becomes quite easily syringable. It's the food I use when I need to syringe feed. Petco now carries Innova products, so it shouldn't be hard to find.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

Thank you so very much for the advice. I unfortunately have been so busy I didn't see Kalandra's post, but am leaving right when I'm done with this to get the chamomile tea and bottled water. Once I was back in buffalo, she did not drink again (from what I could tell), but she was more active at night. Still, she only would come out, eat maybe two pieces of food, drink a tiny bit if anything, run around on her wheel, poop and pee, BUT only for about an hour. She'd come out around seven, but by 8:30 would be back in for the night. I'd clean her cage after she went back in her igloo at 8:30, and everything was as I'd left it in the morning. Poop has been less than normal and while its not diarrhea it is quite soft (to the point where the small amount she goes gets stuck on the wheel or the sides of the cage) but I am not too concerned about this since I have been syringe feeding her liquidy mush for days. She's still on the antibiotic, and twice a day I syringe feed her wet food (authority kitten is unfortunately what I got and I got so much of it I hope it is okay) mixed with the puppy milk replacer, and she also gets sub q fluids every morning. I thankfully had some smaller needles on hand, because the first two days I gave her fluids she actually squealed. I forgot that they can make vocal noises like that and was completely startled, and felt awful! Once I switched to the smaller needle, it was much easier and was obviously much less painful. Now whenever I take her out she huffs 10 times more than she used to...but I'm sure it will pass after I have stopped poking, prodding and sticking her :-( At least I hope so 
Because she is still not eating much on her own, or drinking, and has also lost a few grams of weight, I figured I should probably get blood work done. I'd love to hear others opinions, but I traveled back to syracuse for the bloodwork tomorrow, so would hate to have made her travel for no reason. Now that I am back in syracuse, I will be here for quite awhile so that she does not need to be moved again. We are returning the heat lamp and got a space heater for the room she is in. We shut the blinds, and put a blanket around the cage so it is pitch black. I still have to do her syringe feeding for the night, so I'll probably feed her the watered down wet food and then a little bit of chamomile by syringe, and then also leave both of those in her cage along with her hard food for the night. I ran to the petstore right as it was closing and they did not have stage one puppy milk, but I have kitten milk replacement so I'm debating if I should mix that with the wet food or just water for tonight until I can get more puppy milk tomorrow. If anything seems off about my plan of action, especially for the blood work to be done tomorrow please let me know. I always get worried when they have to take blood from the jugular- I had a newborn from the shelter I used to foster for that passed away as they were taking blood, and because she was so small it was done through the jugular vein. Stella's vet said that it would definitely have to be done through it. Thanks to everyone, especially Nancy and Kalandra for your wonderful advice thus far. And happy New Year everyone!


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

I forgot to say thanks to Nikki and everyone else as well.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

With as long as this has been going on, I would contact the veterinarian to give him an update. If this was going to be fixed by antibiotics, I would have expected to see improvement already. If you are back home, you may want to go to your normal veterinarian and get her examined again. If a blood draw is going to happen, I would ask the veterinarian what they would expect to find from it. I would take a stool sample with you, and would write down a list of when all this started, and what changes have occurred.

As a side note, I have heard of veterinarians doing a femoral blood draw on a hedgehog. I'm told it depends on how large of a sample they need as to if the femoral draw is a possibility.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

At this point the vet said the blood draw would tell us the most. In specific I'm not sure- I know as long as the results are conclusive it will tell us how organs are functioning, her white and red blood cell counts (and the cells the fit into those categories), I know it tells us something else but I cannot remember what- it was something he mentioned today. Last night it looked like she had a small amount of the chamomile, but I also gave her a little bit through a syringe along with her wet food. I must admit I had some myself and have fallen in love! The "relaxation" part of it drew me in since I'm always so stressed out. A thank you for that suggestion from both Stella and myself! When he did the draw today, he said he got a good sample but that he almost gave up because she had edema - this could be from the fluids I've been giving her especially since they were probably still in the process of absorbing since I gave them to her shortly before the vet, or it could coincide with whatever it is that is going on. She took a couple nibbles of her wet food last night as well, but I grabbed some A/D from the vet to give her in her bowl, and by syringe tonight. The vet said that he advises to not give fluids in the morning tomorrow because of the edema, and wasn't overly concerned about the fact that she isn't eating or drinking but obviously more concerned as to why. He said the results will be in tomorrow from the blood test. If this shows nothing, he opts for x-rays which will be sent to the lab so they can look for tumors, measure heart and other organ size, etc. Unfortunately, the x-rays cost over 200, and with already spending 300 so far I'm praying we don't have to go that route. I will go there obvoiusly if I have to, but I fear that nothing is going to show up and then I will be in a hard spot when it comes to any other testing that can be done (although I don't know anything else that really can be done besides a fecal). When I talk to him tomorrow morning I'll see about bringing in a fecal.
Something that I remembered at the vet today : I rescued stella from a woman who had bought her from a USDA breeder. Her past owner told me the breeder almost kept her because she was nice and small, and was seriously considering adding her to her breeding herd to pass on "small genetics". I wonder if this smallness could have anything to do with her issue- which makes me fear it is something birth defect related, which in turn terrifies me! I've had several newborn kittens with birth defects who make it to a certain age seemingly healthy, and then suddenly deteriorate and die. My fingers are crossed the blood work will tell us something.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

Chamomile is a wonderful thing. I have used it with rescues who were seriously stressing out. I have one now that has anxiety/panic type attacks, and it really does help to calm her back down.

Hopefully you will get some answers soon. It is extremely tough when you get into these types of situations. You are doing good. Keep providing that supportive care that keeps her going and keep pushing on the vet to figure out what is going on.

I suppose there is always a chance that she has something genetically wrong with her, I wouldn't worry so much that it is related to her size though. I've seen plenty of tiny hedgehogs that are "old." Some breeders like the big guys, some breed more for the smaller size. I don't think it makes them any more at risk of being sickly.

Keep us updated and hopefully your next posting will be with results that will yield a cure for sweet Stella.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

Stella's blood was normal except for a very high number of lymphocytes which the vet said would correspond with lymphoma. If she has lymphoma there is nothing I can do he said, and in order to be positive it is lymphoma I would have to get a biopsy done for over $600. Knowing that it is lymphoma will change nothing, he said that for animals that are eating their life expectancy with it is 2 or three months. For a hedgehog that is not eating or drinking on her own, he said that her life expectancy would be very short. He kept asking if I was sure she was five months since she is so young to get lyphoma, but I have her DOB and litter information right infront of me.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

Also, I don't know if it's possible to change the subject of this topic to possible lymphoma so those with experience will see the title and chime in. Should I just start a new topic? 
When I asked my vet about prednisone he said he wouldn't recommend it since we do not know for sure if it is lymphoma. I'm debating whether to ask him for it or not.
My sugar glider who developed a head tilt also had elevated lymphocytes. She still has her head tilt, but is still alive.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: Not Urinating?*

The problem with prednisone is that if the elevated lymphocytes is being caused by an infection, it will reduce the bodies fighting ability. However, if the elevation is due to lymphoma the prednisone could help a lot. Lymphoma typically reacts very quickly to prednisone. That is a rock and a hard place type of decision.

I had a hedgehog that had lymphoma who lived for 11 months (including a couple of months in remission) when given prednisone. Those 11 months were higher quality time than the 2 months prior to treatment. I've used prednisone for other cancers in hedgehogs, and honestly from my experience, if it doesn't show improvement in the first 2-3 days, it probably isn't going to.

Did doc offer anything else to try? Any thoughts on it still being an infection?

She is awfully young to have cancer, I wouldn't stop looking at infection still as a possibility, but cancer can appear at any age. My youngest was 1 year.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

Unfortunately, doc did not suggest anything else. I figured I would finish off the antibiotic, and if things have not improved I will push to start prednisone. I just feel so weird about this being cancer, especially when there are no lumps, bumps or other irregularities. I know that they could still be there, that he just didn't find them, but is it odd to have a high level of lymphocytes without any obvious tumors if it is lymphoma?
Do you know of any vitamins that I could give her that would help either way? I do have some calcium glubionate for my sugar gliders when she had elevated lymphocytes which did seem to help her.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

I read of someone using boost as a supplement. Should I get that to add instead of the puppy milk? If so, which flavor?
I'm also wondering if anyone knows the amount I should be syringe feeding her based upon weight. Even a general number that I can then calculate for her weight is fine. Her doctor seems to worry I am going to choke her when I syringe feed her, and so doesn't highly support it which I disagree with. I'd like to make sure she is getting enough, but at the same time not too much. (I have a 6 mil syringe and she usually gets a bit less than half of that per feeding if I am lucky.)


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

You can use vanilla or strawberry flavor. Which is best? Depends on the hedgehog. I have had some that love the vanilla and others that preferred the strawberry. I typically buy the vanilla though. No chocolate  Last year I started using Carnivore Care added to my syringe mixture (innova canned, boost & CC). It doesn't take much of it to add a lot of extra calories to a small amount of food. I've heard some hedgehogs do not like it, but I had great luck with it, and had pretty quick results (ie weight gain).

When I have one that is eating mostly from a syringe, I aim with anything over 5 cc. I target 5-7 ccs per feeding, 3 times a day. I've had a couple that would eat as much as 10 cc in a sitting. I've also had some that had to be fed less, more often. If she is very tiny, she may not need as much. Use her weight to help you judge how much she needs and how much normal food she is eating. 

Does she eat willingly? So long as she isn't fighting you, I would keep offering her food via syringe. If she is fighting, you run the risk of her aspirating, which may be part of the vet's concern. Then you will be dealing with aspiration pneumonia.

You sometimes can have a cancer that doesn't appear as a lump or bump. I lost one last year to leukemia. We had no clue he had leukemia. He had chronic inner ear infections and just kept going down hill. We only discovered the leukemia after having a necropsy with pathology performed. I'd still keep looking for another answer, maybe take the test results to another vet for a second opinion, she's just so young.

For nutritional support, do some research on IP6, fish oil (omega fatty acids), probiotics to assist the GI are my top 3. If it turns out to be cancer, talk to your vet about diet changes. I have used a high fat, low carb diet for a few different types of cancers (including lymphoma).


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks, I'll have to pick up some carnivore care to add to the mix of A/D, boost and the vitamins I choose to add. As for the vitamins, I'm picking up some fish oil and plain yogurt tonight to mix into the diet. I also want to try IP6. I figured I will try to find a pill or powder form, compute the dosage and add it to the mix. If I cannot find the pill or powder form, I will use sesame oil since that contains IP6. It was my understanding from the research I did that IP6 is not proven to work (due to lack of studies), however it can not hurt to try. Would you say this is correct from what you've researched?


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

I agree. I have used IP6 with almost all of the hedgehogs I have had who had cancer. I don't know that it has helped, but I have not detected any harm in it, and figure even if it has a small percentage of chance of helping make their time here higher quality, its worth it.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I can be of no help at all because I have no experience with this. I did look up lymphocytes and it seems high numbers can indicate either cancer or infection. Could this be something as simple as a urinary infection? Did they check for a UTI? 

I used IP6 with Peaches after her mammary tumour was removed. Her prognosis was poor but she survived almost 3.5 years afterward.


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## Hissy-Fit-Hazel (Jul 15, 2011)

lymphocytes can be high due to infection, viral...in people can also be chicken pox or flu and yes cancers. 

If they did not culture I would start with that if possible as it may be the current antibiotic is not the right one and an infection rages on unchecked.


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## Herisson (Jan 7, 2009)

Hi,

I'm sorry to hear about little Stella.

Did the blood work show her kidney function? Did she have a UTI that was treated? If so, was it successful? Have you tried giving goat milk?


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

I've been starting to think viral myself. She has been on an antibiotic, but what if it is the wrong one and what if it is a viral infection rather than bacterial? When you say culture, do you mean a fecal culture? She has no tumor to be cultured, so all they can do is a biopsy which is unfortunately more than I can afford (600 +) Should I have her checked for a UTI and if so, how would he test for that? He did "look" at her urine which was normal and blood-free, but still she could have one I suppose. Are there any other tests you recommend I have done?


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

Forgot to add, the blood test showed that kidneys and all organs are functioning well. The ONLY thing out of the ordinary was elevated lymphocytes. In a 5 month old hedgehog, lymphoma would not be the first thing to jump to my mind but her vet seemed almost certain of it, and did not mention a likelihood of infection. After doing some thinking, infection is a hopeful cause in my mind. I just don't know what we can do in order to determine if it is an infection and what kind of infection it is. The other thing is we have to remember not all of her white blood cells are high, JUST the lymphocytes. I just want to make sure I made that clear.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

My Kei had a low grade chronic UTI that did not show up on either in house nor lab cultures. She had a random pink tint to her urine and was on two types of antibiotic and neither worked. We had her spayed and she continued with the random pink urine until my vet suggested trying a urinary diet, Hills C/D. It worked. Did the vet do a fine needle draw to check Stella's urine? 

I want to note, that just because the urinary diet worked for Kei's issue, it is not a substitute for antibiotics. Hers was a very unusual case.


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## Hissy-Fit-Hazel (Jul 15, 2011)

Stellara said:


> I've been starting to think viral myself. She has been on an antibiotic, but what if it is the wrong one and what if it is a viral infection rather than bacterial? When you say culture, do you mean a fecal culture? She has no tumor to be cultured, so all they can do is a biopsy which is unfortunately more than I can afford (600 +) Should I have her checked for a UTI and if so, how would he test for that? He did "look" at her urine which was normal and blood-free, but still she could have one I suppose. Are there any other tests you recommend I have done?


They can culture most anything to see what grows...like pus, pee, poo, snot nose, skin scrape, swabs of areas, something they hacked up... whatever and it will grow some funk or not but is good to know that the antibiotic is the right one. In house urine tests are usually by a dip card method (depends on the clinic) but for thorough results they usually send out to a lab. I know with my clinic I can get basics (specific gravity / glucose / rods /crystals and such) but not tests run on the urine.

If only the lymphocytes are out you have 2 paths...cancer or infection. Left unchecked the infection/whatever it might be will get her which would be unfortunate considering she possibly could live a full lifetime and have no cancer at all.

Never take what a vet says as gospel especially a non-expert, my vet of 12+ years has been wrong many times and it's important to question everything. Reality is we as guardians of these creatures have to advocate hard to make sure we are satisfied with their care. (this has driven my vet nuts many times lol )  Fingers crossed for your wee buddy!


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

This morning I called to talk to my vet and see if I could get an appointment. I also asked him if there are any tests other than a urinalysis and fecal to do that will detect bacteria in the rest of her body and he said no. He seemed to think my idea of it being an infection is far-fetched since just the lymphocytes are elevated. He said he could test the urine and feces, but nothing would show up. I decided to get a second opinion. I can't give up on her though, I talked to her breeder and they seemed shocked. I truly believe that no other animals from them exhibited lymphoma. She is five months old, if it isn't strongly genetic and it isn't environmental, then how can it be cancer?
Anyway, Doctor is giving me a script of baytril. I decided I could try this in the meantime until I get the tests done. The tests I am getting done at a new vet- for a second opinion. This new vet charges 90 just to come in for a "second opinion". Had I known , I would not have said I needed a "second opinion" to the receptionist. I am having a hard time deciding whether to go to this new vet friday morning or try to get into cornell. Cornell is 100 for an exam, I'm afraid I'm going to waste the little money I have left on this second opinion doctor when I could be spending it at Cornell. Does anyone see any issues with starting her on the Baytril today until she gets in to the new doctor? Baytril is pretty broad-ranged, but I realize the issue may be that she needs something specific to where her infection is. I got boost with probiotic and will start mixing some yogurt into her syringe feeding goop if she starts the baytril today. She just finished the other antibiotic last night.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

Scratch the baytril, I got into the new vet at 11:30 this morning. It's quite the drive for poor Stella, I really hope this new vet is worth it and is open to other possibilities for the elevated lymphocytes.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

The new vet we were supposed to go to called me and made up the decision for us. She does not feel she can offer more assistance, and recommended cornell. I will be picking up more A/D, her records, and Baytril from the vet today to last until I go to Cornell. I do have to see how much it will be..thank god this happened right after Christmas or I would have no money for my poor girl! I'll keep you guys updated, it's time for her feeding


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Good luck hon. I really hope this does end up being an infection. I would start her on the Baytril just in case. Keep in mind that you will need to separate the doses of baytril and the probiotic by at least 2 hours, with giving the probiotic mid way between antibiotic doses being optimal.


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## Hissy-Fit-Hazel (Jul 15, 2011)

Cornell is the way to go...wish I was close to them! Even tho I am on the west coast I've had blood sent there different x over the years for speciality tests for my dogs. 

Hope you find some answers. Definitely a 2nd opinion is warranted especially if a vet does not want to even consider they could possibly be wrong. 

Good luck!


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## hedgieluv (Oct 29, 2011)

Good luck to you with all this. Im a Nurse Practitoner, so I take care of people and not animals. I know from experience that bodies, human or animal, are not as easy to figure out as you might think. I also know that I would not give an absolute...some things don't look like they do in books. There is usually more than one possibility. I'm glad you are getting another opinion.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm fairly worried that the original exotic vet we have been going to will not return my call. I need to get the Baytril and more A/D from him, what if he is annoyed since I had them fax records to another vet today? I did not actually go to the other vet since they suggested Cornell, but still..as far as he knows I went since they faxed the records over. I talked to him this morning and left a message around 11..I really hope he calls me before it gets to closing time :-/ 
I guess I can do another day of the original antibiotic she was prescribed and pick up the Baytril tomorrow if all else fails. She has only been on the Trimeth for seven days.


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

Call him again. If he is any good he should not have any problem with you going to Cornell.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

At first I was trying to get the second opinion of a nearby vet (not cornell). I asked his office to fax over Stella's records. After I talked to the other vet and she explained that she probably could not offer anything more than Dr. R already had, that is when I decided we were going to Cornell (as long as it is in my grasp monetarily). They close at seven, so I'm going to be calling again soon since they are a half hour drive. If I don't get a call back, I'll have to call in the morning. I'd think that any vet would be open to a patient getting a "second opinion"..especially in this case where I was told that my young pet had about a month or less to live most likely.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

I thought I'd give you guys an update on Stellara. The past two nights (it has been three days on Baytril) she has shown obvious improvement. She's been more active, pooping more, and eating some hard food, drinking, and cleaning her bowl of the A/D/Boost mixture. I also syringe feed her her A/D and boost mix twice a day (8 mils in a 10 mil syringe). She is great with eating from the syringe, and still has appetite during the night to eat on her own. Because the improvement has coincided with her being put on the Baytril, I have high hopes that this was due to an underlying infection as we thought. I am still waiting for Cornell to call me back, but honestly would like to give it a few more days since she has gotten increasingly better. Thanks for all of your help, I'd like to keep updating this thread and also come back if there are any downfalls in her recovery. I really thank you for your support, you guys really supported me and the infection theory and because of that push for the baytril from the vet- which I believe at this point is what is responsible for her improvement.

On a side note, I got a large critter nation cage to use for my gliders and then be passed to Stella once I get another hoglet so I can use the two levels separately. I bought this cage for $175 and found small areas of rust inside of the cage and outside. Most of the rust is in the connecting pieces where the animals inside have no access too, but there are small (not jagged) areas inside the cage from rats chewing it and it rusting. I planned on sanding it down with steel whool and then paint it with a child-safe, non-toxic paint (I've heard rustoleum and some type of enamel that is child-safe work well). Does this sound okay to everyone? My gliders and Stella DO NOT chew their cages, and while I will check the cage thoroughly every night, in the years I've had them they have never chewed anything. I certainly hope this is okay because as a college student I do not have the money to buy another cage and I really wanted to give them some more room in the rest of their time with me.
I posted on Glidercentral but did not get a response since last night, and I would like to paint today so I figured you guys may be able to help me  Thanks again everyone


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## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

So glad to hear Stellara is improving. Its so scary when such a young hedgie becomes very ill. You're a good Mommy for seeing her through all of this. Best of luck with everything. Stellara is a very lucky girl to have you.

PS Sorry I can't answer your question about the cage. It seems like a safe plan but I'm not 100% sure.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

YAY for the improvement. Yes, I would hold off on taking her to Cornell as long as she continues to improve. Be aware that Baytril can cause some yucky poop issues so if that happens and it coincides with her eating less again, don't panic as it's probably just the Baytril. 

For the cage, you can either sand down the rust with steel wool, or use a wire brush. As you mentioned, for a hedgehog, pretty much any paint is okay to use because they don't tend to chew it, but getting one that is meant for children is always a good idea.


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## Hissy-Fit-Hazel (Jul 15, 2011)

Glad to hear she has had some improvement! Yaaaa! Is she continuing to do well now?


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

Better and better each night. Boy, I got that warning about the stool weirdness from Baytril just in time. The night before last, she got completely COVERED up to her thighs in poo! She got a much needed bath and sat with me till she dried. It's getting to the point where I'm going to cut her feeding at night in half, and then take it away completely so she doesn't gain TOO much weight.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

No do not cut her food intake. She needs to put on weight after all this and get healthy. She's been sick and needs her nutrition and as much food as she wants. Limiting her food is just setting her up for more problems. 

You can give her a probiotic mid way between her meds that should help with the messy poops.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks Nancy, I started the Probiotic yesterday and have seen significant improvements. I was worried about cutting down any food, I can see she has definitely gained weight (my scale is in buffalo but I swear I have one here too that I need to look for). I'm guessing she is close to the weight she was before the illness, so I should not become worried if she passess this weight correct? I guess I will plan on AT LEAST keeping her on this amount of food until the Baytril treatment is finished, but I should probably then still continue this amount as her body adjusts to being off of the Baytril and having possible weakened immune system. This makes complete sense. Do you agree with keeping her on these feedings for quite some time and past her treatment with the Baytril is over? Should I be concerned about a certain amount of weight gain over her weight originally before she got sick, or because she is a baby should I not be worried. I will mention as I think I did before, she is "small" and was the smallest of the litter, so at 210 she did look a healthy weight for her size and was not at all "thin" looking. This being said, she obviously is not done growing so I do need to take into account that she SHOULD be putting on more weight than 210 as she continues to grow.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

She's a baby and she's growing, she should be gaining weight. I would offer her whatever she wants to eat. These little ones can have fairly large weight gains in short periods of time and large appetites to match while they grow. Tylda had a growth spurt around 5.5 months. She was eating a lot more food than normal and gained quite a bit in 2 weeks, and yet she never looked over weight, in fact she looked under weight during the spurt.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

So tomorrow is the return to buffalo (for the semester - no more moving for as long as I can avoid it). Anyway, Stella is on day 8 of her Baytril (.1 ml every 12 hours). Generally, doctors say 7-14 days of Baytril, but what do you guys suggest as far as the amount of time I keep Stella on it? She has mostly returned to normal, although I still do give her a syringe full of her A/D and boost in the morning. I no longer feed her at night, I just double what I put in her cage since she will willingly eat it all and munch at some of the hard food. Urinating and defecating normally.

Another question is, should I continue to give her this mixture of A/D and boost for a couple weeks? I would think it would be good, and this way I can be extremely slow when it comes to decreasing the amount of the wet mixture she gets, as to not cause any period where she is not getting adequate nutrition and it in turn lead to a rebound effect. What are your guys' thoughts on this? Thanks again  I can't wait to drive by her vet's office tomorrow and tell them the good news while I get her records before going back to buffalo. I haven't contacted the vet since she started to get better- I suppose I was afraid to jinx it and didn't want to deal with any mind obstacles with the infection theory I had going. I'm so thankful that things turned out this way.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I'd give her the full 14 days of baytril. You don't want to stop it too soon and have her relapse.

Yay that she is doing so well. You did great with her.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

If the vet prescribed for a full 14 day run, I wouldn't stop. You don't want to stop prematurely and have her relapse.

You can continue to give the a/d and boost for a while, it will just give her extra calories, and if she needs to regain weight/grow that isn't such a bad thing. I'm happy to hear she is eating some of her hard food though. Be aware that some hedgehogs give you a hard time about weaning from the a/d. They like it a lot, so carefully monitor her weight and ensure she is eating enough kibble as you wean her off of it.


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

The doctor actually didn't write the amount of time to keep her on it- I will go with the fourteen days, especially because she missed a dose due to an emergency and this way she will have steady medication for the rest of the time. I anticipated trouble weaning from the A/D, I have the same problem when I wean sick kittens of it- it is just so good! I think the fact that she is still munching on her hard is a good sign, we will just have to take it really slow and I'll have my good scale back once I'm in Buffalo to monitor her weight like you said


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## Stellara (Nov 12, 2011)

Thought I would give an update. As of now, Stella is not being syringe fed anymore. She gets a heaping bowl of A/D along with her dry food everynight, and finishes the A/D and nibbles at the dry (I need to start cutting down very slowly- she just loves it so much though!). Anyway, she is now at 231 grams! Before the illness she was at 220, then once she got sick she went down to 200, so this is a lot of weight gain- is it too much? I don't think so..but want to double check. It has been a steady weight gain, which seems healthy.
Anyway, she did not wheel for three days, but last night was wheeling as normal. She also has been VERY grumpy! She has poked me more than when I first got her! Could this be a "teenage maturing" thing? Could it be because she is getting POd that she is back in buffalo with new smells (although it has been a few weeks and this grumpiness seemed to start a week or two ago). Everything seems normal besides her behavior- which obviously shouldn't be overlooked with our little friends.

I haven't been handling her AS much due to being really busy with the rescue (Although she does get held at least once daily), but still - when I would get busy for a few days before she was still my girl when we had snuggle time. Tonight she did something I have not seen one of my hedgehogs do before- I was stroking her quills, trying to check out the skin underneath to scope out any causes of grumpiness such as dry skin, and she started arching her back and stiffening up as I was doing it. She softened her quills, so I assumed it felt..good? 
I look her over everyday and check out her teeth, no lumps or bumps or any reasons so far to believe that the lymphoma diagnosis was correct. Anyway, if someone could give me some insight into causes of her grumpiness as well as what this strange arching back thing is, that would be great. Thanks again guys, from Stella and myself.


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