# Harley's babies! 7 of them!



## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Harley and Serenity were due to give birth today (Oct 15). We're still waiting on Serenity, but Harley gave birth at around 12pm (PST). She had gained a total of 120g since Day 1 of her pregnancy.

Our new nest boxes are designed to be able to remove the lid and peek in without disturbing the nest at all. They're _much_ nicer than the big plastic igloos, which is what our mentor uses, so that's what we used for our first litter that was born back in August. When we first peeked in we were able to see two babies for sure, but I was guessing she had another one or two under her because of how she was positioned. This evening, when she came out of the nest box to eat, we were able to get a better look - 7 babies! We are SO proud of Harley - she's a first time mama and she figured it out right away, she was being attentive from the first time we checked. Except for leaving to eat, she's been covering them up like a mother hen and whenever there's a little chirp because a baby's hungry, she adjusts her position to let it nurse.

I wanted to share one of the photos that we were able to get when we peeked in to get a headcount. Harley was busy eating at the time and wasn't bothered by having us nearby. We're still not touching them for at least a few days - whenever Harley is okay with it is when we'll be able to get in there to determine their sex. She's pretty calm right now, so we should be able to sex them at around 5 days old. Harley's being just the right amount of protective - she makes little huffs to let us know she's keeping an eye on us, but she's not stressed out at all. Of course, our hedgehog room is off limits to everyone but myself and my fiance until the babies are at least 10 days old. (*Disclaimer*: _I don't suggest peeking in on babies or handling them before 10-14 days unless you have baby experience and you know your female very well. Bad things can happen if you don't know what you're doing and do it too early._)

This was taken when they were about 9 hours old.  Enjoy! (p.s. didn't actually get as close as the photo makes it look. The original photo was a very large size, I cropped it down to just show the babies.) A few more photos are on our facebook page, and I'll be updating there with new photos and info as they get older!


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## MurE (Aug 29, 2011)

Soooo cooool! Thanks for sharing the pics and thanks for all the disclaimers too!


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes, it's definitely a "don't try this at home". :lol: Even if we had been using one of these nest boxes, I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing this with our first litter, just because it was our first time and we had so much we were still figuring out at that point. I still wouldn't feel comfortable with touching the babies just yet - it's all about knowing the female and being able to read her behavior. And especially since she's having to handle so many babies, we're not going to be bothering her or touching the babies until we know for sure she's okay with it.

We're keeping an eye on the two smallest ones though, and we have all the ingredients on hand for hand feeding. She should be fine with seven, but if it seems like the little ones aren't getting enough to eat and need a little extra, we'll be supplementing them. Most likely if that's going to happen, it will be when they've gotten bigger - at that point the biggest ones may start bullying the smallest ones and getting dibs on the milk. You can already see some difference in sizes in that photo.

This is what our nest boxes look like, by the way!


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## NoDivision (Aug 29, 2010)

love that nest box, such a perfect way to do it. And oh my gosh, what a big beautiful litter!


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Oh my goodness, thanks for the nest box idea. I'm totally going to use it, except with a bin that isnt see through. I was thinking of doing this before and now that you say it works perfectly is awesome! I'm thinking about air holes. What do you think?

scratch that, may use the same type. So I can peek to see if they're born. But dont want mom to see me coming if I want to listen for peeps. Which do you think would be better?


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

We were discussing the pros and cons of using something that's a little transluscent vs. solid. A breeder friend of ours uses a solid version, which works great for them. Part of why we chose this was because these particular boxes fit so perfectly - they're exactly the right width to fit into the end of the normal bins we use, they're the same height, and they're the right size to accommodate a nest. We decided to try these and then switch to solid ones later if we think it'll work better. So far the benefit has been being able to see what the mama is doing, how much of a nest she's built, etc, and also being able to light up the area inside the nest with an indirect light. We use the flashlight on one of our phones, shining in from outside - it raises the light level on the inside enough to have a better look, but it doesn't bother the mama or babies with a bright light right in their faces. The only reason to use a nest box with solid sides would be for a more sensitive mama. For instance, Serenity gave birth today, and she's practically chased us out of the hedgie room completely. I think with a solid sided nestbox she might feel a little more secure and be less aware of us moving around in the room - not that we can do anything about it right now. I think in the future we'll mostly use these ones, but have a few alternative nest boxes that are solid so we can use those with the females that we know are more protective and sensitive. (But, we also have black fleece on hand for draping around the sides of the entire bin the mama is in, and we'd be doing that regardless. Once Serenity lets us get in there to feed everyone tonight, we'll be putting her curtains up.)

The only other thing, which probably depends more on the style/brand and where you get it, is that these boxes in particular are fairly thin and somewhat brittle plastic. We made two, and one of them got a very small crack in the plastic when the hole was being cut out of it. We had no problem salvaging it, but something made of a thicker, solid plastic (like a small Rubbermaid roughneck bin) would be sturdier while being cut. We've made the same kind of circular cut on four normal sized bins so far (the large clear kind) for connected cages, and didn't have any problems with those crackings, so it's really more about the specific type of bin you're using, not whether it's transparent or not. So far for us, that doesn't really weigh into the decision, because these ones are so perfect for our set-up, and the tiny crack isn't even visible (and completely secure because of the glue that holds the PVC in place). So it just depends on how well they work as these two litters get older.


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Right! Neytiri didnt even huff when i went in the room and she was out. She even brought out a baby to show me and let me peek at the rest. I felt honored. Her daughter Lilo (who will be bred next month) is SOOOO submissive and gentle. We've literally NEVER heard her huff. For these mamas I feel a clear bin wouldnt be a problem. A new girl I recently adopted (autumn) is a bit more timid, but I'm sure she'll get better in time. I could use a solid one for her.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

You never know the kind of mother a girl is going to be until you're at that point. Serenity is one of our sweetest hedgehogs - last night she was out begging to be held and crawling on Nick's hand when he put it into her bin. After she gave birth this afternoon, she's made it very clear that we're not allowed anywhere nearby right now. :lol:


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## Viki (Jul 10, 2012)

They are so cute. Here's to hoping for a healthy litter!


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Serenity is back to her usual sweet self. I'm pretty sure we interrupted her mid-birth when we checked on her earlier, which is what made her cranky. She has two very chunky babies in the nest. 










And Harley is still doing great with hers. All seven are healthy and wriggly and accounted for.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I like your nest bins and how snugly they fit in the outer bin. I used bins for almost all the babies born here. IMO, igloos are horrible. My bins were solid sided because that is all I could find at the time. Bins are great for keeping the nest dry in case mom decides to spill water or pee right beside the nest area with a bin, it doesn't soak through. 

I cut the snap down parts of the bin lid off so lifting the lid was a simple lift up. One of them I even put a handle on the top to make it easier to lift the lid. 

Fleece can be wrapped around the outside of the larger bin to provide more privacy for moms who needed it. 

The babies are adorable.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks Nancy! 

You reminded me of the other reason I love these boxes in particular - the lid isn't the snap-on kind. It latches into place with two little things on the side. Those fold down perfectly so they're out of the way, and the lid stays on top completely, but there's no little click sound when we put it back in place or lift it off. The box looks like this, you can see the little hinges, or whatever you want to call them:










I totally agree for the reasons for using the nest boxes. LG also made the point when we were talking about it, if there's some sort of emergency (like an evacuation or you have to take the mama to the vet) you can lift the whole nest box out of there to transport it without bothering the nest.

And just a general update, all the babies and mamas are still doing great!


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

My first litter was honestly a learning experience. All babies did super well and still are. But I made the mistake of using a cardboard box for the nest. Mom dug a hole in the bottom and a baby got stuck under the box. I had to get him out and tape a piece of corroplast on the bottom of the box. Bad mistake, but luckily it was all good!  now I'm much more prepared and know to use a plastic bin.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

moxieberry said:


> Thanks Nancy!
> 
> You reminded me of the other reason I love these boxes in particular - the lid isn't the snap-on kind. It latches into place with two little things on the side. Those fold down perfectly so they're out of the way, and the lid stays on top completely, but there's no little click sound when we put it back in place or lift it off. The box looks like this, you can see the little hinges, or whatever you want to call them:
> 
> ...


Those bins look ideal. I'm glad to see nest boxes are catching on. They are so much easier.

We had to take a mom with one 9 day old to the vet and taking the whole nest box was easy and less stressful.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Nancy - I know, I was so excited to see them in the store! We'll be going back to pick up a few more soon. Right now we're doing two litters at a time, but since we're pretty much doing two per month, and each mama will be using a nest box for 6, maybe 7 weeks at a time (one week prior to the due date, plus 5-6 weeks before the babies are weaned) there's going to be some overlap and more than just two nest boxes in use at any given time. I want to stock up while they're still available. We found them at Walmart, and Walmart has a way of changing what they have in stock at random.

Like the bins we use are a specific size, 90qt, which sounds a little small but the design is long and narrow and it actually gives about 3 sq ft of floor space. But Walmart also stocks 90qt bins that are more like the normal, more squarish, and those have _much_ less floor space - and whenever Walmart calls in a new order for the 90qt bins they can receive one or the other, they're the same product code or whatever, which is so frustrating and stupid, argh! So yeah, we're definitely not at full capacity yet, so whenever we see the _good_ 90qt bins we buy ALL of them at once. And the cashier looks at us like we're insane, lol.

Tabi - We're still learning a lot as we go too - I know we always will be. It's one of the great things about owning hedgehogs in general, but also about breeding. We're _always_ learning new things, they keep us on our toes! 

For instance, our hedgie room is set up with homemade shelving along two walls, and the bins are on there with the short ends facing out (there are some photos of how the room is set up on our site). One of them is wall-to-wall and the other is shorter and has one end of the shelves "open" (not against a wall) because that's where the door is. (Hopefully I'm describing it well!) Anyway, the nest boxes are at the back of the bins, up against the short end of the bins that faces the wall. We realized that it wasn't ideal to have them in their normal position on the shelves (they both had another bin on either side) because we need to be able to peek under the lid of the nest boxes without having to pull the bins out to do it. So when we put in the shavings and nest boxes we also put their bins on the "open" end of the shorter section of shelves, so we can peek in from the side. It's working well except that they're right near the door - it's the only end of shelving not against a wall. When Serenity had just given birth she was so huffy about us coming in the room that we avoided doing it at all until the evening. She settled down and is fine now, but next time around I'm going to change up the layout of the room so they're not so close to the door. We have two store-bought self-standing shelves (the big kind for garage storage or whatever) that we use for storage, and one of them is in the closet - that room has its own closet, big enough to walk into but the back wall has a steep slant so it's kind of awkward. I think I'll be moving some of the storage stuff onto a shelf right outside the door of the hedgie room, and use the shelf in the closet for the mama bins. The closet has its own light and is also warm, so it would be the best way to tuck the mama bins out of the way and give them more privacy.

Also Serenity is kind of wheel-crazy and she couldn't stand it when we removed the wheel. The first night she actually managed to climb onto the top of the nest box and get out. The bins we use are 13" deep, and since we use sleeping bags instead of igloos, they don't have any sort of "stepping stool" to climb out. They also don't try as long as they have wheels, and when Serenity has had the wheel out a few times (because of a foot cut from running) she's never been able to get out. The PVC part of the nest box was obviously enough for her to pull it off. We already have had modified lids on hand for if we need them, but it's the style with the middle cut out and just a "lip" or edge left to block climbing. With the lid on the nest box those don't work, so we had to make new ones designed specifically for having the nest box in there.

That time she escaped, we found her in the morning in the garbage can that's right next to the end of the shelves. Thankfully she was cushioned by paper towels when she dropped in there. Poopy paper towels! Lol!

So yeah, we keep figuring things out and making little adjustments as we go. Our mentor is great but we've definitely deviated from her way of doing things in some places, like with the igloos. I don't like igloos in general as a hideaway for a hedgehog - they take up so much space and have too much open room in there. The only ones we use are the 6" ones because they're cozy for 2-3 babies (after they've been weaned) and a few of our hedgehogs like squishing into there even when they're older.

And now that I'm done with my tangents about bins and shelves and igloos and Serenity's escape attempt, another mini update! Serenity dragged her food bowl into her nest box a little while ago. All the way from the far end o the bin, through the PVC entrance, into the nest. Maybe she caught on to our method of checking on the babies when she's out of the nest box eating? Or she just doesn't want to be away from them. What a funny, quirky girl! :lol: Love her!


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

ooooh! what a smarty. How will you fill her bowl now? open the box? eeek!


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

We just gave her a new bowl in the usual spot. We use mini (2 oz) ramekins - we have a TON of extras so we can rotate them, same as liners. So she's been outsmarted, for the moment!


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Serenity's two babies are a boy and a girl. The girl is much lighter right now. She'll be staying with us. She's a very needy little thing, lol, she keeps right up against her mama and chirps pathetically whenever Serenity goes out of the nestbox.

The boy is squirmy and adventurous, he keeps wriggling away from Serenity, but he's still nursing well and very active so we're not worried.  Last night he got partway out of the nest box entrance, so we took him out, made sure he was nice and toasty warm, and put him back in with mama. Took this photo then (about a day and a half old):


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Harley's babies are 4 girls, 3 boys.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Both litters are still doing well! Serenity was acting a little antsy beginning yesterday morning, and her behavior made me guess that she didn't like the nest box - either too much open space inside, or the translucent sides, or something. We solved it with a tissue box and she's now using that as a nest box instead, and seems perfectly happy. Not so easy to peek in and see the babies, but oh well, as long as she's happy and the babies are being taken care of!  We'll be making some alternate nest boxes (smaller and solid-sided) so we have both options available in the future.

Serenity's girl is probably an albino. She's a very demanding little thing and has gotten to be quite a bit bigger than the boy. The boy is still independent and manages to squirm out of the nest every now and then. He's very feisty! We're attached to both of them already (no surprise there) - they have so much personality at only 6 days old!

Serenity's boy (5 days old):









Serenity's girl (3 days old):









Harley's litter is 7 days old as of today. There's a huge difference in size, but they're all doing well and growing. Definitely some pintos in there. We're able to handle them for about a minute at a time when Harley goes out to eat, but she still is grumpy if we try to reach in while she's in the nest with them. In another few days we should be able to start handling them a little more. I know they must have as much personality as Serenity's two babies, but we just haven't gotten to know them as well yet because Harley guards over them so well.

Harley's brood (6 days old):


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## ktdid (Aug 7, 2012)

1. That baby tounge!!
2. That's crazy how much bigger some are in that second litter. Is such a large variation in size typical with that many in a litter?


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

1. I know! I have a video of it too that I need to remember to upload. It was like slow-mo anointing, adorable. He was mouthing at my hand, anointing, mouthing more. I love this little boy. 

2. Yeah, it's pretty typical. Small litters (2-3) tend to be big and chunky and similar in size, like our last litter was (Plumeria's). They don't have to compete for nursing time, the mama can accommodate all of them at the same time. For large litters, even though females have 8 nipples, realistically not all of them are going to be nursing at once, just because there's not much room for it, especially as they get bigger. So there's competition. Also big litters tend to be varying sizes at birth; the size different wasn't so large at that point, but it was still apparent. The bigger babies have the advantage, the smallest ones get bullied away and don't get as much milk. Right now Harley don't mind having us nearby but doesn't like us reaching in the nest if she's in there guarding over them, so we only handle them briefly when she's out of the nest box eating. When they're a little older and Harley is more comfortable, we'll be taking the largest ones out for socialization/handling some of the time when the others are nursing, to give the smaller ones more exclusive nipple time. The runts may need to stay with us longer; most babies are ready to go at around 6 to 6.5 weeks, but we have a cut-off for how much they have to weigh before they leave (150g), and if the runts need extra time to get to that size, they'll stay with us longer.


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## vincentkosasih (Aug 8, 2012)

Wowww a bunch of babies.... 7!! 
Congratzzzz

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk HD


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## Havok (Oct 18, 2012)

Aww, baby hedgies are so adorable. I showed my mom a picture of the litter and she said they looked like little pieces of spiky chicken breast.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Havok - I assume it was one of the photos when they were under a day old? Yeah, they kind of do, haha. More recently I've been told they look like caterpillars (the fuzzy kind) or cacti at first glance.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Lots of new photos of them posted on our facebook page in the last few days. Harley's litter is here: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... 989&type=1

A few teasers! (Around 10 days old in these photos.)


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

They are so tiny! Great to see pics of them, love the little tongue


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

They're growing so fast! We weighed them last night for the first time. One of the boys is the biggest, at 38.6g, and the smallest is the little runty girl, at 14.2g. While they're nursing they basically double in size every week, it's so exciting to see them grow and get to know their personalities! I should have updated photos for Serenity's two babies in the next few days, but since she had a little trouble and ended up relocating to a tissue box (she was antsy from apparently not liking the nest box) we're giving her a few more days before we try to peek at her babies again.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Got some new photos of Serenity's two babies, finally! The girl is definitely an albino, and we'll be keeping her - we've named her Siren. The boy has a small amount of pinto on his sides. They're 2 weeks old exactly in these photos. There are a few more photos of the boy posted on our facebook page too. 

Serenity's girl (VVH Siren):
















Serenity's boy:


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## Stac (Jan 9, 2012)

Awe! Serenity's boy is sooo curious, annointing in every picture


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Stac said:


> Awe! Serenity's boy is sooo curious, annointing in every picture


They're all at that age now, they pretty much do nothing but mouth on our fingers and anoint repeatedly.

I got a TON more photos, had them all out for a photo shoot. This is just one of each baby, but there plenty more on our facebook page.  (And those versions are bigger, too!)

Harley's boys:























Harley's girls:






























Serenity's babies:


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## momIImany (Oct 14, 2012)

Congratulations, they are all so beautiful.


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