# Hedgehogs and raw/holistic diets



## SnufflePuff

I was just wondering if anyone has any information/research articles or knows anyone who has fed their hedgehogs raw diets or holistic diets that didn't involve kibble.

Puff's recent passing from cancer has really got me thinking. Obviously these little guys get cancers for other reasons than just diet, but since hers started in her liver, it has really got me thinking if there was some way to eliminate kibble from the diet completely while still keeping the recommended nutrient percentages (30% protein, 10-15% fat, enough fiber, etc.) would it help lower the incidences of cancer?

I know a few people feed pinkie mice so obviously hedgehogs can handle raw meat and bone in their diet? (For those of you who feed pinkies - do the hedgehogs eat the bones too?).

What I was thinking was along the lines of commercial raw diets for cats, either the commercial ground raw patties that have the meat, fruits, veggies and fiber sources in them or even the freeze dried raw diets (you can rehydrate them or feed them dry) that contain the meats, fruits, veggies.

I'm not going to go blindly feeding my hedgehogs new diets, I was just curious if any one has ever looked into this before or knows of anyone who has? 

If not, I'm going to start doing some diet research, talk to some different vets, check out these different foods to see if any of them would meet what we think hedgehogs need for their diet.

I was just curious if anyone had looked into this before


----------



## susanaproenca

I'm very interested in this subject. I really don't believe cat kibble is the best diet for our hedgehogs and I have been trying to reduce the amount of kibble given, and increase the amount of insects and veggies. 

My girls now get a little bit of the kibble mix every night but most of their diet consist of cooked chicken, eggs, or other lean meat, mixed with a little bit of mashed up veggies or veggie baby food. They also get way more bugs than most people here offer; they get 6 mealworms or crickets and 3 waxworms a night. And, they get a pinkie every Saturday (they eat the whole thing.)

Interesting thing is, since I decided to stop limiting kibble and/or offering low fat kibble to my overweight girl Pete, and go with a more diversified diet instead, she seems much more active, runs much more on her wheel, is less huffy (Pete was a grumpy rehome) and has lost some weight which wasnt happening when I was feeding her kibble only. So I really thing the diet changes I have made were beneficial.

I would love to eventually stop feeding kibble and feed only a home cooked diet, as I am planning on doing soon with our dog, but I just can't find enough supportive data to help me figure out what to feed and how much. Maybe one day.


----------



## MissC

I can't help much but feel the same way you do - a more natural diet has to be better, right? Or us it? Sigh. I have been looking for info but it's sparse. I will post info about what I've been doing so maybe we can share info and ideas?? For example, Sumo chooses not to eat kibble but he's not pooping enough IMHO. So...now what?


----------



## Lilysmommy

I like this topic too! I've been kind of following the same trend, but depending a bit more on baby food than anything else. It's worked with Lily too though, both the baby food and hiding frozen crickets. She's lost the little bit of weight she needed to, and she spends more time (that I can see) running around her cage to look for crickets rather than just eating some kibble and going straight back to bed. I need to get a wheel odometer to start seeing how much she runs, though...I wish we could find more information on what would really be best for them. Maybe we need to band together and start bombarding scientists with hedgie pictures until they fall in love and want to start studies on the best diets for them. :lol: 

Cindy - Maybe you've already tried this, but maybe putting a bit of canned pumpkin or mashed squash in his nightly food mix would help? I can't remember any other methods to help right now.


----------



## hanhan27

I'm really really interested in this stuff, too. I myself am not the healthiest eater :roll: but I would love to get Milly on a more natural diet. I have the time to prepare food for her, and I have the money to spend on it, so there's really nothing holding me back other than the lack of information about holistic diets for hedgehogs. I like the idea of knowing exactly what is going into her body and knowing that she's eating healthy.

Maybe we can see if we can get a new section for HHC made? Instead of posting under diet and nutrition, those of us who are interested in this can post in a "Holistic Diet" section... That way we don't confuse newer hedgehog owners and we have a place where we can post info, things we try that go over well (or not well, haha), ideas to try, etc. 

I have also been wondering if a nutritionist would be helpful to me for figuring out a protein and fat appropriate diet? Do you guys think a nutritionist could help me figure out a good holistic/raw hedgie diet?


----------



## xspiked

I love this topic. I still have her on entirely kibble with a few meatballs now and then, but it's more like I don't know how comfortable I'd feel with giving her mostly chicken/veggies/fruits. I know a lot of people do it, but I feel like I'd mess up somehow and not give her the proper nutrients.

A nutritionist should definately be able to be helpful I think hanhan27.
My question is, are we oversimplifying things by looking at protein/fat/fibre content. Just like how we have stuff we need to eat, like vitamins and essential amino acids, are there similar (yet different) requirements for hedgies? Maybe cat food doesn't cover these nutrients, but maybe it would cover more of them than we would be able to?

I hate to sound like a downer :roll:  , but I'm just thinking of how much we don't know =(. (And the amino acid bit came from the fact I'm studying intro biochem 24/7 and it's killing me). 

I agree, we needa bombard someone with pics of cute hedgies and make them all want to research how to make hedgies live the longest healthiest lives ever.


----------



## SnufflePuff

I'm so glad I'm not the only one! But I strongly agree we don't know nearly enough 
I have 2 ferrets and they eat a 100% raw diet (which consists of 80% muscle meat, 10% bone and 10% organ) I also supplement with extra virgin olive oil, salmon oil and canned pumpkin. Ferrets are obligate carnivores who shouldn't have any grains or sugars or fruits or veggies so it's quite simple to balance their diet. 

I think what most of you are doing with reducing kibble and adding more whole foods and insects is definitely a good start. I think feeding the pinkies too is a good idea but I wonder about the cooked meats/ baby food - would raw meat be better? I know raw is much better for ferrets than cooked is, but can hedgehogs handle the bacteria from the raw as well as ferrets, dogs, cats can? 

I agree with having a section/thread on what we try / what seems to work, etc. If everyone would post on here for now that might be good 

I'm gonna try the hedgehogs out with different foods and see what they'll eat. I think I'll stick cooked meats for now. Maybe give pinkies a try when I try them out with the ferrets.

Definitely give the pumpkin a try MissC. Also he will poop WAY less on a non-kibble diet. Totally normal and nothing to be worried about. The poop will also look different. It won't be as solid looking, this is totally normal too


----------



## Hedgieonboard

Very interested in this as well  I do have a question about the pinkies though just because I've been reading up a lot about them. I know that Hedgies and Lizards are not even close to being the same. But I have been reading up on pinkies and have found that a lot of people won't feed them to their lizards and the reasons they give is that they have little nutrition and made up of high fat. After reading this I looked up the nutritional facts on a pinkie and they didn't seem like the fat was as high as I was thinking it was going to be, just a little high but have too find the paper I wrote the info on, off the top of my head I think it was like in the 18% range. I was also reading where some people will cut the heads off for their lizards giving the reason that sometimes they have trouble digesting the skull cap. I wondered if anyone there may know more about these points and if some of these things may apply to hedgies. I know wild hedgies would eat them but wondered if anyone thought that since they now seem to be smaller on average than the wild cousins if this would change anything (in the sense that a bigger animal will go for bigger pray and a smaller hedgehog may have trouble with the prey a bigger wild cousin may go after). I've seen other places where people say that chicken is better because its lower in fat. None of this is specially hedgehog related but were some things that made me think. Love the discussion


----------



## fracturedcircle

i am very interested in this too. mine get very little kibble.


----------



## SnufflePuff

Pinkies aren't as nutritional as hoppers or adult mice because they are newborn mice and don't have the nutrients that adult mice have. For example their bones don't have as much calcium and you're right they would be mostly fat because they're new born. Ideally you only feed pinkies to any animal (reptile, ferret, hedgehog) to start out and you work them up to the older mice for better nutrients.

No idea about the skulls. Brains are super nutritional (very high taurine for heart health and other great nutrients). I know with ferrets if they can't eat the bone, they leave it. I'm sure the same is true with hedgehogs. 

Would love to hear anyone else's thoughts!

what if we all posted our menus? What our hedgehogs are eating currently In a week?

Mine are kibble heads right now except for crickets and mealies because they're super picky but I'm working on it. If the rest of you would post what you're feeding that would be great!


----------



## Hedgieonboard

I love the menu posting idea too  Mine are kibble heads too. Loken eats kibble and mealworms for the most part I have gotten him to try carrots but he really just likes what he likes. I still always try though and when I give Sandra things I give them to Loken too. Maybe he will surprise me one day. I hate to give up in case he changes his mind. Sandra though is more adventurous and eats kibble, meal worms, crickets, chicken fruits and veggies (specifically banana, carrots, strawberry, watermelon, cantaloupe, broccoli, mango, apple) I'm probably forgetting somethings so I may have to add later lol

PS-I forgot scrambled eggs


----------



## Lilysmommy

I know I've posted Lily's diet on different topics a lot lately, so sorry if anyone's getting sick of reading it. :lol: Right now this is her usual menu:

- 40 kibble (she'll eat between 10-20 each night, usually)
- 1 tablespoon of mixed baby food (one mix is chicken/apple, peas, broccoli/carrot, and steamed/mashed butternut squash, the other is turkey, sweet potatoes, peas, banana, steamed/mashed butternut squash, and carrot/potatoes/spinach; I go every other night with the two mixes)
- 5-7 crickets (frozen and hidden around the cage)
- 1-5 mealworms (depending on her weight)
- sometimes a cat treat, like freeze-dried shrimp or a Wellness PureBites

I've been depending mostly on baby food because I had a ton of it on hand, it's easy to mix up and freeze in ice cube trays, and Lily eats it. She hasn't really eaten most solid fresh veggies I've tried her with, even ones she likes in baby food form, like peas. If I mix them in with a meat baby food, she'll still lick around them. :roll: However, if I mix veggie baby foods up with a meat one, she'll eat all of the mix. I'm getting ready to make another batch soon, the chicken one is almost gone. I'll probably do another chicken-based one, or different meat besides turkey anyway, and add in more veggies and a fruit.

While I'm posting, a quick question...Do you guys think it'd be worth it to make some scrambled egg when I do my next mix and blend it up to add to the baby food? I feel like it'd be a good thing to give her, but I've tried scrambled eggs several times and she wants nothing to do with them.

And one last question...Should I avoid the baby food that contains spinach? I know that's heavy in either calcium or phosphorus (can't remember which, it's nearly 4 am and I'm braindead :lol: ) and I don't want to throw that ratio off too much...I don't understand much about it, so maybe I'm worrying unnecessarily or something, but just to be safe.


----------



## fracturedcircle

i'll post our menu.  

my Russian sources are big on saying that pinkies and ratties (YUCK YUCK YUCK) are great for the immune system, but i don't know the details. i'll ask.


----------



## SnufflePuff

Thanks for posting your menus so far!

@Lilysmommy - Eggs are great protein source so if Lily will eat them disguised in your baby food mix, I'd say go ahead and add them! Just as long as she's gettting no more than 1/2-1 egg per week (1 egg per week is the limit for ferrets so I figure it would be a bit less for hedgehogs). I had no clue that spinach was bad? I always thought that it was a super food or something? I'm sure a little bit would be okay but it's always better to be safe. I'm actually thinking about trying to get my hedgies to eat broccoli, well actually broccoli sprouts - because I've heard a lot of great things about them being anti-cancer foods? 

Can't wait to see more menus!


----------



## Lilysmommy

Thanks Snufflepuff! When I do my next mix, I'll scramble some egg and try blending it to sneak it in. And I've heard that spinach has a lot of nutrients or something, but I feel like I also remember reading that it's very high in calcium (I think), so you have to be careful about feeding too much? I suppose if that's the case, having it in just one food out of several in the mix and only getting the mix every other day shouldn't hurt, I just wanted to see if anyone else knew more about it. I've also heard that broccoli is a good food, I was excited to find the one food that included it! I think it was a 2nd level food or something, for older babies, because I remember it was a bit chunkier, not completely smooth.


----------



## fracturedcircle

'our' diet: http://frozen-fields.livejournal.com/81244.html


----------



## Hedgieonboard

Love the journal, great idea  Do you freeze them or just do up a batch for the fridge? I love the chicken meat ball idea. I'm not too familiar with cooking Barley but do remember hearing it was very nutritious for people so I'm going to go on a quest to learn more about it tonight lol I would totally eat Sweetie and Harveys dinner myself minus the bugs of course lol


----------



## MissC

Sumo's diet is still 'under construction' but last night, for example:

10 crickets (frozen, hidden in his cage...3 were teeny)
5 mealworms (live, hidden - 3 were teeny)
2 tbsp cooked ground beef/chicken (I cooked then froze it on a cookie sheet, then stored)
1 tsp veggies fresh mixed in with meat (red pepper, sweet potato, green beans)
1 tsp fruit/veggies (separate dish - cantaloupe, carrots, sweet pot, red pepper)
*the carrots and sweet potato were cooked

I have tried hiding kibble as a treat as he used to LOVE his kibble...nope. Barely sniffs it.

I am attempting to increase his fibre with sweet potato (I looked it up and found it has more fibre and is actually more nutritious than pumpkin). He didn't touch it. In spite of the veggies being chopped up very small, he somehow manages to eat around them yet noms down ALL of the meat. Amazing.

His poop was MUCH better and I suspect it was the extra helping of watermelon he got the night before. I am eating the cantaloupe myself, now :roll: and buying Sumo a watermelon...the most expensive fruit in the store. Jamie is right: Sumo DOES eat better than we do. :roll:


----------



## fracturedcircle

Hedgieonboard said:


> Do you freeze them or just do up a batch for the fridge?


we don't freeze--just cook a batch and it put it in the fridge. we do freeze the canned bugs after a few days.

i am often tempted to steal a bite from Sweetie or Harvey's bowl. :lol:

i really want to find more 'premade' insects for them, but i am out of ideas. anyone?


----------



## LizardGirl

This is an awesome thread guys, can't believe I missed it til now. I'll see if any of the other admins are up for a "holistic diet" subforum.

For those with fruit and veggie picky hedgies, I strongly recommend feeding insects recently gutloaded with whatever they won't eat. Inky, for example, will NOT eat greens. Not that I'd expect him too, why would he when he has such better stuff.  So I load up his mealworms and roaches on dark, leafy greens (the mealies actually turn a darker color after a while) and feed him them, knowing their gut contents of healthy food are being snuck in. 

I do think that hedgies could probably handle the bacteria in raw food, but it'd probably come down to personal preference for handling the meat. Hedgies in the wild snack on carrion that I'm sure isn't the most sanitary. It's not like they hunt down their own prey like dogs or cats, they get the nasty leftovers.


----------



## Hissy-Fit-Hazel

The whole pinky feeding & pinky head cutting off idea just wigs me out EWWWWW. I would love to learn more about this topic and the nutritional aspects of it all ...I won't be feeding pinkies tho :lol:


----------



## LizardGirl

I don't think decapitating the pinkies would be necessary. :lol: Lizards and what not don't chew their food quite as well as mammals do and can swallow large chunks, but I think a hedgie would chew properly or not swallow if they couldn't get the head, um... crushed properly.


----------



## Littlefootsmama

This is a really awesome topic! I'd love to get my boys on a more holistic diet if they werent so darn picky! They won't even eat meal worms! We just went to a new vet this weekend though and she wants me to add more variety to their diet, so this holistic thing would be a great idea.....I just have to convince the boys to eat the stuff.....

Also where do you purchase gut loaded meal worms? I haven't heard of them.


----------



## Guest

Littlefootsmama said:


> This is a really awesome topic! I'd love to get my boys on a more holistic diet if they werent so darn picky! They won't even eat meal worms! We just went to a new vet this weekend though and she wants me to add more variety to their diet, so this holistic thing would be a great idea.....I just have to convince the boys to eat the stuff.....
> 
> Also where do you purchase gut loaded meal worms? I haven't heard of them.


Its note likely you would purchase them gut loaded, you would get live meal worms into a cage/tank and feed them healthy fruits or veggies and then feed them to your hedgie. This way the nutrients from the veggies or fruit are in the bellies of the worms and will be there for the hedgehog


----------



## fracturedcircle

we get vita-mealies (http://vita-mealie.weebly.com/) and then gut-load them.


----------



## sdenney

This is definitely a topic of interest to many pet owners, not just hedgehogs. I have been trying to figure out the best diet for not just my future hedgie, but my rats and dog as well. More and more animals seem to be dying of Cancer. People as well! Why? When I was little (I am only 21 right now), I hardly recall so many reports of Cancer. Maybe it's because I was little then, and didn't pay much attention to such things. But it seems that Cancer is becoming more and more frequent in animals.

What concerns me is this:

For years and and years, dogs have been eating crappy foods. Pedigree, Iams, Eukanuba, Old Roy. These are foods hunters fed their tracking hounds, and the everyday household thought were great foods (aren't national dog shows sponsored by Purina). Look at the commercials for Beneful? A Purina food that contains food coloring, ground yellow corn, animal digest, by-products, etc. Heck, my parents fed our dogs Beneful and we always thought it was okay. After all, "it's so good for you, too" is in the commercial, where you see a dog running around happily and fresh fruits and vegetables falling from the sky. Wonderful advertising, but is it really good for our dogs?

The dog food industry is becoming better and better - or at least that's the impression we are all under, right? Wellness, Blue Buffalo, Nature's Variety, Nutro, Canidae, Innova. These are all high quality foods, with high quality ingredients. So it's better right? They took out the by-products, the animal digest, the corn... and replaced it with healthier, more nutritional ingredients. More and more people are being steered into the healthier foods, but more and more dogs are getting Cancer and dying.

Now don't get me wrong, I believe in high quality ingredients in our pet's food, and I have seen first-hand some the most remarkable improvements after switching a dog from crap to high quality - they don't need to eat as much, their skin and coat are healthier, less shedding, and a lot of foods now have antioxidants and other healthy vitamins and nutrients that are beneficial to our pet's overall system.

We don't really know what causes Cancer, and I may not be onto something at all because my fiance's mom's dog just passed away from Cancer in December and she ate Purina her whole life. So maybe it has something to do with the food, and maybe it doesn't.It's something that is of huge interest to me, and I wish there were facts that could help me understand what's going on with the food we and our pets consume these days.

Another thought that came to mind - we frown on low quality ingredients like animal digest and by-products, but in the wild, wouldn't our pets be eating worse? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't turn down a rotting dead squirrel if they came across one. Maybe high quality ingredients aren't totally necessary?

For me, I fork out as much money as necessary to feed my pets only the best foods (I'm a college student who makes 8$ an hour and my pets eat better than I do). But maybe a little bit of the crap is actually okay for them?

As for raw diets for hedgehogs, I don't think it should be the main diet in my opinion because hedgies aren't carnivores, they are insectivores. They should be loading up on insects and fresh fruits and veggies more than anything else. But that's my opinion, and as you all know, I've been running rampant around Hedgehog Central trying to prepare myself for my first hedgehog. If I was going to feed meats to my hedgehog, I would do what most of you are already doing - make the diet yourself, with insects, fruits, veggies, and cooked meats. That seems to me like the best option as opposed to relying on already made raw diets like Primal or Nature's Variety raw food. To me, a homemade diet seems a lot healthier than kibble as a staple diet.

My personal peeves are trying to find organic ingredients, and/or meats that are from hormone-free free-range cattle and poultry. I only feed my rats organic baby foods, and try to find meats that are free of artificial hormones (because that definitely has effect on the person or pet ingesting the food --- has anyone noticed how much more quickly boys and girls are developing? I read an article on a professor who noticed his daughters were developing earlier than they should have been. He decided to test something and began making his family's food with organic and hormone-free products, and even growing his own fruits and veggies - no more McDonalds, etc. - and their development slowed down after awhile.)


----------



## Guest

sdenney said:


> This is definitely a topic of interest to many pet owners, not just hedgehogs. I have been trying to figure out the best diet for not just my future hedgie, but my rats and dog as well. More and more animals seem to be dying of Cancer. People as well! Why? When I was little (I am only 21 right now), I hardly recall so many reports of Cancer. Maybe it's because I was little then, and didn't pay much attention to such things. But it seems that Cancer is becoming more and more frequent in animals.
> 
> What concerns me is this:
> 
> For years and and years, dogs have been eating crappy foods. Pedigree, Iams, Eukanuba, Old Roy. These are foods hunters fed their tracking hounds, and the everyday household thought were great foods (aren't national dog shows sponsored by Purina). Look at the commercials for Beneful? A Purina food that contains food coloring, ground yellow corn, animal digest, by-products, etc. Heck, my parents fed our dogs Beneful and we always thought it was okay. After all, "it's so good for you, too" is in the commercial, where you see a dog running around happily and fresh fruits and vegetables falling from the sky. Wonderful advertising, but is it really good for our dogs?
> 
> The dog food industry is becoming better and better - or at least that's the impression we are all under, right? Wellness, Blue Buffalo, Nature's Variety, Nutro, Canidae, Innova. These are all high quality foods, with high quality ingredients. So it's better right? They took out the by-products, the animal digest, the corn... and replaced it with healthier, more nutritional ingredients. More and more people are being steered into the healthier foods, but more and more dogs are getting Cancer and dying.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, I believe in high quality ingredients in our pet's food, and I have seen first-hand some the most remarkable improvements after switching a dog from crap to high quality - they don't need to eat as much, their skin and coat are healthier, less shedding, and a lot of foods now have antioxidants and other healthy vitamins and nutrients that are beneficial to our pet's overall system.
> 
> We don't really know what causes Cancer, and I may not be onto something at all because my fiance's mom's dog just passed away from Cancer in December and she ate Purina her whole life. So maybe it has something to do with the food, and maybe it doesn't.It's something that is of huge interest to me, and I wish there were facts that could help me understand what's going on with the food we and our pets consume these days.
> 
> Another thought that came to mind - we frown on low quality ingredients like animal digest and by-products, but in the wild, wouldn't our pets be eating worse? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't turn down a rotting dead squirrel if they came across one. Maybe high quality ingredients aren't totally necessary?
> 
> For me, I fork out as much money as necessary to feed my pets only the best foods (I'm a college student who makes 8$ an hour and my pets eat better than I do). But maybe a little bit of the crap is actually okay for them?
> 
> As for raw diets for hedgehogs, I don't think it should be the main diet in my opinion because hedgies aren't carnivores, they are insectivores. They should be loading up on insects and fresh fruits and veggies more than anything else. But that's my opinion, and as you all know, I've been running rampant around Hedgehog Central trying to prepare myself for my first hedgehog. If I was going to feed meats to my hedgehog, I would do what most of you are already doing - make the diet yourself, with insects, fruits, veggies, and cooked meats. That seems to me like the best option as opposed to relying on already made raw diets like Primal or Nature's Variety raw food. To me, a homemade diet seems a lot healthier than kibble as a staple diet.
> 
> My personal peeves are trying to find organic ingredients, and/or meats that are from hormone-free free-range cattle and poultry. I only feed my rats organic baby foods, and try to find meats that are free of artificial hormones (because that definitely has effect on the person or pet ingesting the food --- has anyone noticed how much more quickly boys and girls are developing? I read an article on a professor who noticed his daughters were developing earlier than they should have been. He decided to test something and began making his family's food with organic and hormone-free products, and even growing his own fruits and veggies - no more McDonalds, etc. - and their development slowed down after awhile.)


Cancer is a mutation in the cells which causes them to reproduce rapidly and uncontrollably, it is possible that the higher end cat foods are too healthy and cause these cells to end up doing so of course this is just speculation.

It is important to remember too much of anything is a bad thing even if its good for you perhaps something in the foods on higher ends is too much for hedgehogs in large does over time who knows.

Either way this subject interests me and I will be observing closely to better provide for my two girls


----------



## MomLady

Keep it coming, I am definately interested in this also.

Sometimes, I wonder if we are doing the right thing by having these guys as pets. They really serve no purpose (other than being our beloved pets, being interesting and adorable) and I am thinking that is part of the problem. We probably don't know what they ate in the wild and for sure not the balance of fat/fiber/carbs/protein. 

I have to remember to keep trying the things she won't eat, after all this time she finally loves her live mealworms. When I first started feeding crickets, I'd hold them with tweezers for her. Now I put her in the bathtub and let 6 or 7 live crickets loose and she hunts them down and makes the cutest purr/growl while chasing them and eating them. 

I have never gotten her to eat the baby food meat, but I will try again.

Try, try, try again. Moderation is probably the way to go.

Thanks for the info!!!

Donna


----------



## fracturedcircle

sdenney said:


> That seems to me like the best option as opposed to relying on already made raw diets like Primal or Nature's Variety raw food.


my doggies are on Primal, but i wouldn't give it to hedgies bc of all the ground bones.

gosh, i wish i could find canned roaches somewhere. :roll: you know, edible dead roaches. :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## Lilysmommy

I'm considering ordering some dubia roaches to try with Lily, since they're so easy to keep. Also starting to consider adding more changes to Lily's diet (after I finish changing her kibble mix). I like the meatballs idea that I've seen a few other people doing, and I'd like to add some different insects, if I can find a good place to order them. I'm thinking keeping her veggie mix, but maybe reducing it to half a tablespoon a night, then her kibble mix, one small meatball, and two different kinds of insects (preferably one that's immobile, to be hidden around her cage like the frozen crickets). For insects, I'm thinking about the standard crickets and mealies, then dubia roaches, slugs/snails (not sure where I'd get these, or if they'd be good for Lily, any opinions?) and caterpillars. Fractured, I know I've seen you say somewhere where you order your caterpillars from, but I can't remember...You get them online though, right? I was also considering phoenix, butter, and silk worms, but silk are super high in protein. I might try phoenix and butter though, and see if Lily even likes them.

Also, one more thing that keeps bugging me: Kibble is still beneficial for at least helping keep their teeth strong and cleaning their teeth, right? Or is that pretty unnecessary? Is there anything else we could substitute in that would help clean their teeth? I still want to keep Lily's kibble mix available every night since she will eat it after the insects and baby food is gone, and I figure it might catch any nutrients or vitamins that I've missed with her other food. But this was another thing that I was thinking about.


----------



## Immortalia

@Sdenney: I have a friend who firmly believes that we are killing our dogs by taking them to get vaccines yearly. Too much chemical buildup over the years. She said to have the vets to a.... Tighter? Turger? Blood test to show just what levels of vaccine chemicals are REALLY in their bodies. For the most part, you'll find that it's a few thousand over the "safe" amount if you have always done yearly vaccines. She has completely stopped getting vaccines for her dogs, they are all on raw food diets and she hasn't had any of hers develop cancer. In the last 8 years that I've known her, the ones that have died all died of old age, or accidents. Not a single one of her dogs has cancer. 

For her, the diet is as natural as can be. Whole hocks, whole chicken frame with bones etc etc. And all her dogs look very healthy, all 10 of them lol. She's actually doing more clinics now to spread information, so anyone who is able to drive to Brantford Ontario, I'd be more than happy to see when there'll be another.

I wonder, for hedgie teeth wise, what about giving them soft bones, you know, the semi flimsy clearish whitish ones. And bones are always nutritious, even those soft ones. Even if you don't give it to them to chew on, even putting it into a blender for them would be good.


----------



## fracturedcircle

LilysMommy--we get ZooMed caterpillars and snails. as i understand it, snails can be toxic otherwise but i forget why.

Immortalia--yes, it is called Titer's test and yes, Jean Dodds who's a prominent immunologist offers a diff vacc protocol, which i follow for my dogs. 

the bones must be completely unprocessed otherwise they splinter.

do people buy frozen pinkies...?


----------



## fracturedcircle

i've been thinking of trying this out: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lucky-Reptile-D ... 265&sr=8-8


----------



## MissC

Lilysmommy said:


> Also, one more thing that keeps bugging me: Kibble is still beneficial for at least helping keep their teeth strong and cleaning their teeth, right? Or is that pretty unnecessary? Is there anything else we could substitute in that would help clean their teeth?


This was my concern, too, when I began to decrease kibble around here. Now, if given a choice, Sumo won't eat it at all. I'm sure if that's all he got he would but if I hide a few kibble as treats, he gives 'em a sniff and keeps looking.

When my vet and I talked about changing Snarf's diet I asked this exact question and she said the crickets and to a lesser extent, the mealies, were enough to get rid of plaque. She said the biggest mistake 'we' make is feeding fruits/foods that are too sweet - THAT's what she said the real culprit is. She had a point: hedgies don't eat a lot of sweet stuff in the wild. Green leafy vegeatbles are the closest to their natural diet. I had been feeding pieces of dried fruit, remember?  So she said to increase the insects and decrease the sweet foods and his teeth should be fine.

And yes, spinach should be just fine...even the green parts of romaine lettuce...kale...etc According to her, the amounts we would give would be so small there's no danger of giving too much of any one mineral (like calcium, for example).

I would leave kibble out, too, like you said: it'll help balance nutrients and cover what you haven't. And the expense won't be an issue - buy a teeny bag :lol: so there's no down-side, really. I would be doing this if the little goof would eat it. :roll:


----------



## Lilysmommy

fracturedcircle said:


> LilysMommy--we get ZooMed caterpillars and snails. as i understand it, snails can be toxic otherwise but i forget why.
> 
> Immortalia--yes, it is called Titer's test and yes, Jean Dodds who's a prominent immunologist offers a diff vacc protocol, which i follow for my dogs.
> 
> the bones must be completely unprocessed otherwise they splinter.
> 
> do people buy frozen pinkies...?


Thanks! I might try both, we'll see. Canned insects rather gross me out, we had a customer return a can of crickets (they were too big for the gecko, and didn't move, so the gecko wouldn't eat them), and I got a whiff of them and UGH! And yup, I think most of the people who've gotten pinkies so far got them frozen. I remember someone (can't think of the username right now...) got some live ones this last time she got them and just couldn't deal with having to feed them to their hedgie. I couldn't either!



MissC said:


> Lilysmommy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, one more thing that keeps bugging me: Kibble is still beneficial for at least helping keep their teeth strong and cleaning their teeth, right? Or is that pretty unnecessary? Is there anything else we could substitute in that would help clean their teeth?
> 
> 
> 
> This was my concern, too, when I began to decrease kibble around here. Now, if given a choice, Sumo won't eat it at all. I'm sure if that's all he got he would but if I hide a few kibble as treats, he gives 'em a sniff and keeps looking.
> 
> When my vet and I talked about changing Snarf's diet I asked this exact question and she said the crickets and to a lesser extent, the mealies, were enough to get rid of plaque. She said the biggest mistake 'we' make is feeding fruits/foods that are too sweet - THAT's what she said the real culprit is. She had a point: hedgies don't eat a lot of sweet stuff in the wild. Green leafy vegeatbles are the closest to their natural diet. I had been feeding pieces of dried fruit, remember?  So she said to increase the insects and decrease the sweet foods and his teeth should be fine.
> 
> And yes, spinach should be just fine...even the green parts of romaine lettuce...kale...etc According to her, the amounts we would give would be so small there's no danger of giving too much of any one mineral (like calcium, for example).
> 
> I would leave kibble out, too, like you said: it'll help balance nutrients and cover what you haven't. And the expense won't be an issue - buy a teeny bag :lol: so there's no down-side, really. I would be doing this if the little goof would eat it. :roll:
Click to expand...

Thanks Cindy, that all definitely helps lower two of my main concerns. Lily doesn't get a lot of just fruit baby food or fruits anymore (the only ones she liked in the original form were melons anyway), but I think I may continue putting just one fruit baby food in each mix. Doesn't seem like that could hurt much, mixed in with everything else! And she does still eat some kibble (for now anyway), so I guess her teeth should be fine. I'll stop worrying about the spinach and other veggies too. With the other changes I'm planning, I think I may start whittling down her mix to only a couple favorite foods. Right now, she always eats all of the Solid Gold, and then just a few of some of the others. Might as well cut down on some of the bags I have in the freezer if she mostly ignores them anyway! My brother keeps snarking at me about the cat food in the freezer. :roll: I wonder if he still hasn't noticed the crickets in the upstairs freezer... :lol:


----------



## leaveittoweaver

My concern with raw would be the high protein though? I would think it would be a little too much for a hedgie.

Also, I think cancer being more frequent in pets now days has more to do with all of the poor breeding that is done then anything else.


----------



## hanhan27

sdenney said:


> We don't really know what causes Cancer, and I may not be onto something at all because my fiance's mom's dog just passed away from Cancer in December and she ate Purina her whole life. So maybe it has something to do with the food, and maybe it doesn't.It's something that is of huge interest to me, and I wish there were facts that could help me understand what's going on with the food we and our pets consume these days.


I completely understand where you're coming from with this. Last January, I noticed that my dog Annie (a springer/spaniel mix) was getting kind of chubby. At that point, she was about 8 years old. She was the sweetest dog I've ever met in my whole life and was perfectly willing to do what you wanted her to do. So when I went to take her and our other dog for their daily walk and she refused to go farther than the front door, my mom and I took her to the vet, where she was diagnosed with stomach cancer. In 3 weeks, she became incontinent, couldn't hold food down, and had a stomach so large that she looked like she had 2 litters of puppies in her. We had to call the vet to come to our house to euthanize her because she could barely move her weight around.

Annie ate Canidae dry and wet dog food almost her whole life, and didn't get table scraps the way a lot of other dogs do. So I have decided that whether pet owners want to acknowledge it or not, the food they feed their animals has a huge impact on their life span and happiness. What the heck else could have an affect on an animal's stomach other than the food they eat, or the water they drink? I'm no cancer expert, but I know the basics, and this whole story just feels fishy. Cancer is becoming more and more prevalent and it scares me half to death.

On another note, I have decided to try to meat balls and see if they go over well. If they do, Milly's diet will consist of the meatballs (mostly meat, with veggies and possibly banana), mealies, maybe crickets if I can get her to eat them, and a very small amount of cat food. It is my ultimate goal to be able to get rid of the cat food completely, but I at least need to have a vet visit before I get rid of it altogether.

LizardGirl, it would be fantastic if you could talk the other Mods into starting up a Holistic Section on the main page. It would make it really convenient to share stories, our hedgies likes/dislikes, things our vets say, etc. I think it would be a really great addition to the site.


----------



## leaveittoweaver

Immortalia said:


> @Sdenney: I have a friend who firmly believes that we are killing our dogs by taking them to get vaccines yearly. Too much chemical buildup over the years. She said to have the vets to a.... Tighter? Turger? Blood test to show just what levels of vaccine chemicals are REALLY in their bodies. For the most part, you'll find that it's a few thousand over the "safe" amount if you have always done yearly vaccines. She has completely stopped getting vaccines for her dogs, they are all on raw food diets and she hasn't had any of hers develop cancer. In the last 8 years that I've known her, the ones that have died all died of old age, or accidents. Not a single one of her dogs has cancer.
> 
> For her, the diet is as natural as can be. Whole hocks, whole chicken frame with bones etc etc. And all her dogs look very healthy, all 10 of them lol. She's actually doing more clinics now to spread information, so anyone who is able to drive to Brantford Ontario, I'd be more than happy to see when there'll be another.
> 
> I wonder, for hedgie teeth wise, what about giving them soft bones, you know, the semi flimsy clearish whitish ones. And bones are always nutritious, even those soft ones. Even if you don't give it to them to chew on, even putting it into a blender for them would be good.


I didn't see this post when I first responded to the third, just wanted to add that I feel the same way about vaccines with animals. A co worker of mine really convinced me that it's not necessary for an indoor cat to have vaccines for rabies and such. She said no vet will even do a wellness exam on her cats because she refuses to vaccinate yearly.

I know the test you are talking about, it's called a titer test and measures the amount of antibodies in the system.


----------



## sdenney

I would definitely like to know more about this vaccine thing. Today you can't take your pets anywhere if you don't have proof of up-to-date vaccinations, so how would you get by without vaccinating your dogs? When I think about it, my parent's dog was vaccinated very often when we had her. She was mostly and indoor dog and never had much contact with other dogs so there wasn't really a reason to vaccinate her I suppose... I somewhat believe in vaccines, especially for puppies. Wouldn't you worry about your puppy getting parvo? If I had a puppy, I probably wouldn't take him anywhere to get parvo in the first place, but I work at a pet supply store and a number of people come into the store with their 7 week old puppies who haven't had all their shots. And yes, puppies WITH the parvo virus HAVE set foot in our store before, and were told they needed to leave because they could infect other puppies (we have a shot clinic that we provide a small facility for on Wednesdays and Saturdays for discounted vaccine costs for people who can't afford vet charges). 

So now I wonder if I should have my dog vaccinated... Honestly, I would rather risk the vaccines because she gets out a LOT and meets a LOT of dogs, and I don't want her to get sick from another dog. You never know the conditions of other people's dogs. We've even had people walking around with pups infested with fleas, mange, and mites before (I don't know what the heck these people are thinking when they bring their mange-infested dogs into a pet store where 7 week old puppies are being carried around like trophies). That stuff could easily effect my dog, too! 

Canidae is a great food, rated four stars I believe. I personally don't like it for no apparent reason other than the rep guy is ridiculously obnoxious, they compare their foods to other brands (which is rude), they overexagerate about their food, and I've always been turned off by it. But in general, as a high quality dog food, I think it's a great food. 

So now we know a dog died of cancer who ate Canidae their whole life. A dog who ate Purina products their whole life died of cancer, and a dog who ate Iams died of cancer. You've got a high quality food, and two lower quality foods. So is it the food that caused it? Hard to say 

I think feeding a wide variety of insects is an excellent idea.

I've actually had a lot of people ask, "Why would you want a HEDGEHOG?" I guess their only real purpose is to be a wild animal, but cats and dogs were wild once. Snakes were wild. Hedgehogs, in my opinion, are just a newly domesticated pet and are not very common, so not much research has been done regarding their diet, nutrition, and overall health. That's why we don't know what to feed our hedgies, and many vets don't know how to treat our hedgies. It takes time. We are all individually experimenting and documenting new things on this forum. Don't feel bad for having a hedgehog as a pet, otherwise you might as well feel bad for having a dog, a cat, or a bearded dragon! 

Hedgehogs are great pets, but not for everyone. I've only been on this forum a short time, but I know everyone here cares a lot about their hedgehog and wants only the best for them. Which is why we have gone through so much trouble trying to concoct the most nutritional diet for our hedgies. 

My co-workers parents-in-law recently took in a hedgehog, and today she said she didn't think they use any kind of heaters for it. I told her about this forum and how I had learned their temperature requirements, and diet, etc. and she didn't know that any of this information existed.


----------



## sdenney

A final question regarding vaccines -- are we killing OURSELVES for vaccinating ourselves and our children? In some cases, it could really mean life or death. I've heard many stories of how certain religions refuse to have their children vaccinated, even when it could help their child. I saw a thing on TV documenting a man who had a large overgrowth on his face, that was four times the size of his actual head. It got to the point where he couldn't live a normal life, had trouble eating, had trouble breathing (imagine sleeping when you have a huge growth covering your nose and mouth!), and even made it difficult to do everyday tasks like dressing/undressing, brushing your teeth, moving around, etc. He would randomly start bleeding at times, which also threatened his life. If his mother had agreed to the vaccine years and years sooner, it wouldn't have gotten as bad as it did... He had to have surgery to remove it, but practically lost more than 85% of his face. Not to mention the severity of the surgery could have killed him alone.


----------



## Guest

sdenney said:


> A final question regarding vaccines -- are we killing OURSELVES for vaccinating ourselves and our children? In some cases, it could really mean life or death. I've heard many stories of how certain religions refuse to have their children vaccinated, even when it could help their child. I saw a thing on TV documenting a man who had a large overgrowth on his face, that was four times the size of his actual head. It got to the point where he couldn't live a normal life, had trouble eating, had trouble breathing (imagine sleeping when you have a huge growth covering your nose and mouth!), and even made it difficult to do everyday tasks like dressing/undressing, brushing your teeth, moving around, etc. He would randomly start bleeding at times, which also threatened his life. If his mother had agreed to the vaccine years and years sooner, it wouldn't have gotten as bad as it did... He had to have surgery to remove it, but practically lost more than 85% of his face. Not to mention the severity of the surgery could have killed him alone.


Vaccines are just dead viruses and they immune system is supposed to attack it and develop an immunity, on some occasions the virus can reactive and get you the sickness.


----------



## fracturedcircle

sdenney--it is often a good idea to join a forum for your dog's breed (not a general dog forum, as those can be less informative or in-depth) and see what more experienced owners and *good* breeders are doing. all of the poodle forums/lists i'm part of are emphatically holistic-minded. just try to get as many opinions as possible from trustworthy (i.e., experienced) people.  also, there are holistic vets out there, although i have a strong feeling that they are more expensive and of course not every area has one.

sorry, i'm done derailing the thread.


----------



## LizardGirl

Okay, if those of you wanting to talk about vaccines (though hedgies don't get vaccines...) could make a separate thread or something, that would be nice. Let's keep it on topic.


----------



## MissC

What the heck were we talking about?? Something about food....

Oh, yeah!! Holistic diets!! That's it!!

Regarding the pumpkin... I did some research and found that sweet potato actually has more nutrition and much more fibre than pumpkin. Who knew? I mention this here cuz I know a lot of us have trouble trying to get our hedgies to eat pumpkin but many LOVE sweet potato. And i dont see why it couldn't be a part of a regular diet. Unless you are named Sumo, apparently. 

Sumo seems to be pooping better and his weight us fairly stable, so I am going to slowly introduce SF at half dose for a few days.


----------



## PJM

Wanted to share this picture of Zoey sampling some blends I made up & froze in ice cube trays. 
They are apple, carrot, cauliflower & broccoli, pureed chicken (which was her favorite) & blended veggie & kibble mixture. 









I created a little spreadsheet to help me keep track of all things hedgie...it may be too small to see it, but basically, it has a list of different foods & food mixes. I thought I could just check off the food I offered each night & then the next morning, if they were eaten, I would completely fill in the box. It would be obviously a lot easier with fewer hedgies. But I thought each grouping would be 1 day & I am planning to put the date on the top of Cholla's name. It's about 2 pages long, I was just planning to tape them together. I put in an assortment of different things that some have mentioned they feed their hedgies. 

I made it so the first box is for weight, next for distance on the wheel & 3rd space for time on the wheel. Some empty spaces toward the end for foods I forgot. I tried to keep meats together, veggies together & fruits. Then a space for kibble & a few for "mixes" which would be whatever. For me, mix 1 will probably be some kibble, chicken & veggies blended together.


















Anyway, thought it could help me figure out what they all like & how often I serve it. So far, Zoey will just about lick her plate clean. Cholla will eat most of it & Pepper (stinker) won't even touch it. :roll:

If anyone wants me to email them a copy of this Microsoft Excel spreadsheet, just pm me with your email. I didn't know how to do it any other way.


----------



## MissC

That looks great PJ...when I get my iPad, I will get a copy (who would buy a laptop without Office :roll: ). 

I have a running list of what Sumo has been eating and I just put 1-3 stars beside it. People are probably laughing at us, but even with one hedgie, you start to forget some of their faves or you keep offering the same uneaten food over and over and never mind trying foods again and again over a few months. :roll:


----------



## fracturedcircle

PJ--yes, please email me the sheet.  i am trying to pick up the basics of accounting, so i might as well look at spreadsheets. :lol:


----------



## Pooki3

I think this is a great idea and a good place to start is looking up the recommended diet percentages for hedgehogs. kinda like our nutritional values hedgehogs usually need 5-15% fat 20-40% protein and 2% fiber all you gotta do is calculate it out. For example 4 oz of cooked chicken breast contains 23-24 g of protein and 1.5 g fat (my hedgehog loves chicken and I buy a lot so I could do this mixed with kibble) theres also Sweet potato cookies (no sugar with meal worms inside) that I make that contain about 4-5 g protein and 8g of fiber which with some mealworms would probably match the needs of Berko for the night. 
the other questions (speculations) I see concerning Cancer is a question i get from a lot of people (I work for cancer specialists) The world today is wholly different than it was before cancer was known of in the 1970's. With pollution (also free radicals) and things giving off small doses of radiation like cell phones its dangerous for us humans who have more advanced evolved dna compared to animals. Especially animals kept as pets who are breeded into lesser forms of themselves (think all those tiny dogs). cancer effects mitochondrial DNA. Its more likely that a person and a hedgehog both will have a higher chance of cancer is their parents or other relatives have it..things like cigarettes (containing chemicals that effect DNA) and Cell phones (giving off small amounts of radiation) are the few outside sources. Most natural foods aren't able to affect you on a DNA level like these. It could be additives in kibble but its more likely that other enviromental factors effect pets (like if your dog drinks out of puddles who knows whats in there or if they're around someone who smokes like my cruel father who smoked 2 packs a day with two dogs (that got cancer) and made my eyes & skin turn yellow)
Don't be too scared of things like vaccines and higher quality kibble


----------



## Guest

Slightly in topic as this is insect related food, what does everyone make of this food to supplement in the diet? About the only insect food I found that wasn't total garbage on first glance lol


----------



## fracturedcircle

TWCOGAR said:


> Slightly in topic as this is insect related food, what does everyone make of this food to supplement in the diet? About the only insect food I found that wasn't total garbage on first glance lol


i'd try it with my hedgies. honey is a very strong allergen but i'd try and see. thank you for finding it.


----------



## fracturedcircle

but this insect-eater diet seems to be out of stock everywhere...?


----------



## Lilysmommy

I like the spreadsheets, PJ! I keep trying to work out the best way to keep track of Lily's records...Right now my tables are split up into date, kibble given, kibble ate, weight, and other notes (which is where I write how many insects and which baby food mix, and whether she ate all of them or not, plus whether she got cuddles that night, or any other important info). I'm still not completely satisfied with it yet though...I just need to figure out what I want to change/add to it.


----------



## MissC

fracturedcircle said:


> but this insect-eater diet seems to be out of stock everywhere...?


But insects don't show up until the 11th ingredient!? :shock:


----------



## fracturedcircle

MissC said:


> fracturedcircle said:
> 
> 
> 
> but this insect-eater diet seems to be out of stock everywhere...?
> 
> 
> 
> But insects don't show up until the 11th ingredient!? :shock:
Click to expand...

yes, i've noticed.


----------



## Guest

fracturedcircle said:


> MissC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fracturedcircle said:
> 
> 
> 
> but this insect-eater diet seems to be out of stock everywhere...?
> 
> 
> 
> But insects don't show up until the 11th ingredient!? :shock:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, i've noticed.
Click to expand...

Didn't say it was the best thing ever but might be worth mixing into something


----------



## MissC

It's only good for 14 days in the fridge. I don't know if that's good or bad. :lol: just thought I'd share. :mrgreen: 

I will stick to my smelly mealworms farm and creepy frozen crickets. :roll:


----------



## cylaura

I've been following this topic pretty closely, I don't have much to add but thank you all for doing this research! I've really been enjoying changing up Liam's diet, it's a lot of trial and error but it's all worth it in the end. The addition of crickets, especially, has seemed to make quite a difference. He hasn't lost any significant weight (still holding steady between 380-400g), but his body shape does seem a bit more long and ovoid instead of circular. 

Liam doesn't get much kibble (about 20-25 pieces/night) and he usually doesn't eat all of it, whereas he almost always eats all his wet food and bugs. I wouldn't mind eliminating it completely, but I do feel like he gets more meat sources from the kibble (duck, lamb) than he does from the wet food (mostly chicken and turkey). Also, I saw that a lot of people use grains in their mixes - barley, rice - about how much do you use in relation to everything else? I would think that hedgies wouldn't need much in the way of grains? Correct me if I'm wrong.



fracturedcircle said:


> PJ--yes, please email me the sheet.  i am trying to pick up the basics of accounting, so i might as well look at spreadsheets. :lol:


My boyfriend is an accountant, maybe I should make him take up hedgie care spreadsheets as a side project! I'm sure he would be thrilled with me. :twisted:


----------



## kiania

I use the canned insect-eater diet, and Bodhi seems to like it. I freeze it into cubes, and then only take one out when I want to use it (instead of mince/egg on that night), this way it lasts 6 months in the freezer.

It smells like...there are no words to describe the horrors! But it has lots of dried insect bits in it, and it always gets eaten (unless I mix it with scrambled egg...egg is apparently so evil that it contaminates everything!).

I'm not going to suggest swapping it for kibble - as I said, I use it instead of my meat course (which I do daily, along side fruit/veg, as well as bowls of kibble and live mealworms) - but it makes a nice change in the rota, and contains lots of fruit and veg along with the meat and insects, so an all-round win in my case.


----------



## fracturedcircle

kiania said:


> I use the canned insect-eater diet, and Bodhi seems to like it. I freeze it into cubes, and then only take one out when I want to use it (instead of mince/egg on that night), this way it lasts 6 months in the freezer.
> 
> It smells like...there are no words to describe the horrors! But it has lots of dried insect bits in it, and it always gets eaten (unless I mix it with scrambled egg...egg is apparently so evil that it contaminates everything!).
> 
> I'm not going to suggest swapping it for kibble - as I said, I use it instead of my meat course (which I do daily, along side fruit/veg, as well as bowls of kibble and live mealworms) - but it makes a nice change in the rota, and contains lots of fruit and veg along with the meat and insects, so an all-round win in my case.


do you have a link for the insect-eater food?


----------



## kiania

fracturedcircle said:


> do you have a link for the insect-eater food?


This one, mentioned on the page before this (to which I was replying to  ).
http://www.exoticnutrition.com/en483.html


----------



## MomLady

I have been feeding more crickets and mealworms, more "real" food and trying to cut down on the kibble. 

I have noticed an increased energy level. When I put Nara in the bathtub for cricket hunting she seems to be running around more and she's even tunneling under a blanket I have in there. The crickets hide underneath and she has to "hunt" them. She is just so cute when she pops up on the other side.  

She really seems to be having "fun". 

Has anyone noticed a change in their hedgies activity level since changing their diets? 

Thanks,

Donna


----------



## Lilysmommy

I know Lily started moving around and exploring her cage more after I started hiding frozen crickets for her, but I think that was more the incentive of hidden treats than anything. It was definitely fun to get to watch her running around to get them all though!


----------



## OpalRaven7

I have button quails who lay ity bitty eggs, do you think it would be ok to give my hedgies one raw? I would imagine they are similar to eggs eaten in the wild... I have been wondering this for a while but have been to scared to try it out on one of my babies lol


----------



## LizardGirl

As long as you are confident they're sanitary, go for it! Without trying to state the obvious just want to mention that you should crack them part or all of the way open.


----------



## OpalRaven7

OK I fed my hedgies a small amount of a frozen raw diet for dogs/cats last night.
This is what it was : Nature's Variety Instinct, Chicken Formula.
Ingredients
Chicken, Raw Ground Chicken Bone, Turkey, Turkey Liver, Turkey Heart, Apples, Carrots, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseeds, Montmorillonite Clay, Chicken Eggs, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried Kelp, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Salmon Oil, Olive Oil, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Persimmons, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Inulin, Rosemary, Sage, Clove.
Calories
65 per oz 
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min): 13.0%
Crude Fat (min): 6.0%
Crude Fiber (max): 2.0%
Moisture (max): 68.0%
Other Nutritional Data
Carbohydrates: 2.05%
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6): 0.999%
Linolenic Acid (Omega 3): 0.249%
Arachidonic Acid: 0.115%

Vitamins
Vitamin A: 12161.55 IU/kg
Thiamin: 1.60 mg/kg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B2): 2.39 mg/kg
Niacin (Vitamin B3): 36.54 mg/kg
Pantothenic Acid: 10.12 mg/kg
Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6): 2.02 mg/kg
Folate: 408.85 mg/kg
Vitamin B12: 0.03 mg/kg
Vitamin D: 240.00 IU/kg
Vitamin E: 9.60 IU/kg
Minerals
Calcium: 0.320%
Copper: 1.60 mg/kg
Iron: 145.04 mg/kg
Magnesium: 0.026%
Manganese: 2.40 mg/kg
Phosphorus: 0.256%
Potassium: 0.192%
Selenium: 0.127 mg/kg
Sodium: 0.067%
Zinc: 24.00 mg/kg
Amino Acids
Arginine: 0.802%
Cystine: 0.352%
Histidine: 0.322%
Isoleucine: 0.557%
Leucine: 0.867%
Lysine: 0.929%
Methionine: 0.300%
Phenylalanine: 0.467%
Threonine: 0.490%
Tyrosine: 0.375%
Tryptophan: 0.129%
Valine: 0.589%
Taurine: 0.064%

.What do you guys think of the ingrediets/percentages?


The gerneral consencus was four out of five ate all of it and most of their kibble. The one that didnt eat it all, I saw her taste it and then she started self annointing like crazy lol but she never finished it. but she also is my pickiest eater... Also when you guys feed veggies, do you cook them?


----------



## Lilysmommy

It's a bit high in protein, but no more so than most wet cat foods or meat baby foods. As long as it's a treat or smaller part of their diet than the main diet, I think it'd be okay. The ingredients all look great, though I kind of wonder what "Montmorillonite Clay" is for...

With veggies, it depends on how hard they are. It's generally recommended to cook things like carrots, which are pretty hard and could be a choking hazard. I've offered peppers, cucumber, cauliflower, and broccoli without cooking though, I just chopped them up pretty small. Since then though, I've bought all of the veggies in bags that they could be steamed in, to make it easy.


----------



## OpalRaven7

Isn't the protein suposed to be about twice the fat content though?


----------



## shaelikestaquitos

OpalRaven7 said:


> Isn't the protein suposed to be about twice the fat content though?


Protein is supposed to be around 30% for hedgies, and fat should be less than 15%


----------



## Hissy-Fit-Hazel

Since starting all this real food Hazel has taken to NOT eating her kibble. I have to crush it and add it to her real food :roll: Like others have mentioned I worry that if she doesn't get some kibble she will be lacking in nutrients due to me not being a nutritionalist nor having the time to calculate special diets up. I was however able to figure out in the 2 tsp kibble I make her eat = approx 45 kibbles with what I feed ( Innova low fat & Now) so she IS getting her kibble even tho she would prefer not to. 

I feed her primarily chicken and scrambled egg + whatever else. I cook it all at once and put it in ice cube trays enough for each meal (I divide one egg into 7 portions although it has never been made clear to me why they can not eat more?) 

Chicken/egg combo which is about 3 tsps gets well mashed into 2 tsps of crushed kibble. I then add some type of organic baby food which makes the kibble stick to the real food lol...of course chicken is her fav but I try to use different meats and veggies usually 1 of each. She is not fond of sweet potatoe...carrots make her hurl, she is not into them at all and something about them does not agree with her system...peas, butter nut squash...whatever I can get her to eat and is ok for her I mix in there. 

I try to give her some fresh fruits each night and she is really fond of cantelope (she would fill her belly if allowed) and honey dew. I started a meal worm farm because I live to far to get them easily and she gets 1-4 a day depending ( because she is new I use for "good" interactions and not being a huffy monster) I really want to start her on crickets but they never have them when I am in town.

re: crickets do you just put them in the freezer live? and what size of crickets are ok for them?


I still leave her with some whole kibble at night but she never touches it. Having picked up some sample bags of different cat kibbles she will "try" something new as a treat tho.


----------



## Rainy

Hissy-Fit-Hazel said:


> re: crickets do you just put them in the freezer live? and what size of crickets are ok for them?


Some people gut load their crickets for a couple days before freezing, but I just throw them in the freezer as soon as I get home. When I defrost them, I inject them with flaxseed oil. Neither Harvey nor Izzy will eat their kibble if I sprinkle it with flaxseed oil, but they gobble crickets without question.  Makes me giggle to think I'm pulling one over on them. 

I buy the small ones, just because they don't gross me out so much. But I think some people buy the big ones, especially for live hunting. I think the big ones are a little slower.


----------



## Hissy-Fit-Hazel

Rainy said:


> Some people gut load their crickets for a couple days before freezing, but I just throw them in the freezer as soon as I get home. When I defrost them, I inject them with flaxseed oil. Neither Harvey nor Izzy will eat their kibble if I sprinkle it with flaxseed oil, but they gobble crickets without question.  Makes me giggle to think I'm pulling one over on them.
> 
> I buy the small ones, just because they don't gross me out so much. But I think some people buy the big ones, especially for live hunting. I think the big ones are a little slower.


I suppose if they are dead a gal can cut them in half anyway if they are larger (ewww). Last time I was in town they had some and I was right excited about that until they asked me what size I wanted lol...I had no idea they sold them by size or what size I needed. Gut loading crickets doesn't sound like much fun...I have no problem with the meal worms although the aliens wig me out slightly :lol: Jumping bugs are a whole other matter.

Funny how different they all are...Hazel will eat the kibbles I put flax seed oil on and leave the rest


----------



## Rainy

Hissy-Fit-Hazel said:


> Rainy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people gut load their crickets for a couple days before freezing, but I just throw them in the freezer as soon as I get home. When I defrost them, I inject them with flaxseed oil. Neither Harvey nor Izzy will eat their kibble if I sprinkle it with flaxseed oil, but they gobble crickets without question.  Makes me giggle to think I'm pulling one over on them.
> 
> I buy the small ones, just because they don't gross me out so much. But I think some people buy the big ones, especially for live hunting. I think the big ones are a little slower.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose if they are dead a gal can cut them in half anyway if they are larger (ewww). Last time I was in town they had some and I was right excited about that until they asked me what size I wanted lol...I had no idea they sold them by size or what size I needed. Gut loading crickets doesn't sound like much fun...I have no problem with the meal worms although the aliens wig me out slightly :lol: Jumping bugs are a whole other matter.
> 
> Funny how different they all are...Hazel will eat the kibbles I put flax seed oil on and leave the rest
Click to expand...

I know. I always imagine that when I get a live cricket out, I'll have my mouth open at the worst possible moment and he'll jump in my mouth and poop!


----------



## mizgoldstein

anybody feed silk worms? thought this was interesting..

http://www.silkwormshop.com/benefits.html


----------



## mizgoldstein

also, I read somewhere that you can contact the Nutritional Advisory Group about finding out correct nutritional and feeding information for animals. idk if I'm just being an idiot but I don't see contact information anywhere on their site: http://www.nagonline.net/index.html

anybody know how to contact these people? there's a picture of a hedgie on their banner! they must be able to help us!


----------



## paigealyssa

Hi. I haven't posted on here yet but have been learning a ton. I've been following this topic really closely because I am very concerned with making sure I am giving my pets a healthy diet. I have recently started giving Hedgie more variety. He doesn't seem picky. He's gobbled up what I've tried so far which has been chicken baby food and green pea baby food, and a little wet cat food. I've seen a few people talking about offering spinach and greens. I was just wondering with those would they just be offered raw or is cooked better? Thanks.


----------



## Lilysmommy

paigealyssa said:


> Hi. I haven't posted on here yet but have been learning a ton. I've been following this topic really closely because I am very concerned with making sure I am giving my pets a healthy diet. I have recently started giving Hedgie more variety. He doesn't seem picky. He's gobbled up what I've tried so far which has been chicken baby food and green pea baby food, and a little wet cat food. I've seen a few people talking about offering spinach and greens. I was just wondering with those would they just be offered raw or is cooked better? Thanks.


I would go with raw, since from what I've read (though it may be different with greens), cooking tends to take the nutrients out of the food unless you're just steaming them.


----------



## paigealyssa

Thanks! I just added another food in the last few days, hard-boiled egg and he didn't even leave a crumb! So excited to be giving him better foods. I think next I'm gonna try sweet potato, then next time I'm at the store I'll get some spinach or greens to try.


Paige


----------



## MissIvy

At last I have some hedgie-experience of my own! After months and months of reading I finally got myself an adorable, yet very picky hedgie. He gobbles up his kibble the instant I put his bowl down (and he gets enough, he's slightly overweight and for that on diet). After his first week with me I've been trying to give him chopped and grated veggies and fruits, but he sniffs it and then ignores it. Even if I chop them up to very tiny pieces and mix them with his kibble; he just eats his kibble and leaves the more healthy stuff (reminds me soo much of me when I was a little kid... xD). After reading about veggies and fruits and picky hedgies, I decided to try the babyfood (since a lot of hedgie-owners use this as treat and that their hedgies LOVE it). So, I bought a small can of organic babyfood (carrot and turkey) and he gobbled it up even faster as he would devour his kibble and mealies. From that moment on, I buy all the greens and fruits and stuff that's hedgie-healthy and all blend them to babyfood. That way he eats ANYTHING. Literally. 
So, even for the mommies and daddies of those very picky hedgies; keep trying different things and be stubborn and feed them healthy stuff. They suddenly might even decide to like their greens!


----------



## Lilysmommy

I just thought I'd bump this up.  I know we have a lot of newer members on here in the past few months and thought maybe someone would be interested in reading this thread over and getting some great ideas on special treats to add to their hedgie's diet.


----------



## Thoughts

mizgoldstein said:


> anybody feed silk worms? thought this was interesting..
> 
> http://www.silkwormshop.com/benefits.html


I may be wrong, but isn't one of the reasons to feed insects to to get more fiber (from the exoskeleton)? If these worms don't have an exoskeleton, seems like they kind of miss the mark. However... for say, a laying reptile, they seem perfect


----------



## kittyeats

Could a hedgehog eat chicken broth? Not just chicken broth, but a treat. Like, freeze some in an ice cube tray and give it to them?


----------



## silvercat

kittyeats said:


> Could a hedgehog eat chicken broth? Not just chicken broth, but a treat. Like, freeze some in an ice cube tray and give it to them?


Homemade chicken broth sans seasoning. I don't see why not. Store bought chicken broth though has a lot of sodium, preservatives & spices, so I wouldn't serve it unless at least low sodium


----------



## kittyeats

Thanks!!


----------



## rucadamsel

What a nice thread! very informative. I am also worried that commercial food causes cancer. It really does! Human food and pet food contains toxic additives, colors, and preservatives that are made from tar, coal, petroleum, and even formaldehyde! These things make the body too acidic, and in turn the cells start to mutate into cancer. It is no coincidence that everyone is dying of cancer. Some of it is environmental, yes, but a lot has to do with the poison we ingest. It's in our water, food, and personal hygeine products. I am no expert on cancer, I am just going on common sense and my knowledge of science. I have theory that if the body becomes more alkaline than the cancer, it will heal on it's own. I haven't tested this theory in any way, but I have read about others who have battled cancer this way. I thin k the big docs and pharm co. know there are cures for cancer out there, but they can't make money off of it like they do with their expensive radiation treatments and they can't make money from it at all if cancer is cured! Anyway, the best thing would be to avoid what is causing the cancer. Adapt to an organic lifestyle. Buy a good water filter that filters out fluoride. Idc what they say. Fluoride is a chemical by-product of aluminum. A toxic waste that the aluminum companies paid some scientist to say is good for ur teeth , so they could make money off of it's disposal! My point is, natural is the way to go! I did buy some cat food for my little guy but now I am thinking of taking it out of his diet, and feeding him real food only. He seems to like it better anyway. I have had my hedgehog for less than a week, and found that he doesn't like worms too much, but he does like beef, eggs, bread, plain biscuit, apples, peaches, banana. I might have to do as some of u suggested and try mixing baby food in with the meat, or cook the meat with the veggies and ground it up. I am thinking these guys don't think about what percentages of protein or whatever , when they are eating in the wild. Maybe we really are over thinking the diet? I think they know what is best for them, that is why they are so picky. I say we should keep offering fresh meats and produce and let them choose what they want to eat, and try to continue tweeking it by adding hidden veggies here and there. Sounds like the best thing to do.


----------



## Lilysmommy

rucadamsel said:


> I did buy some cat food for my little guy but now I am thinking of taking it out of his diet, and feeding him real food only. He seems to like it better anyway. I have had my hedgehog for less than a week, and found that he doesn't like worms too much, but he does like beef, eggs, bread, plain biscuit, apples, peaches, banana. I might have to do as some of u suggested and try mixing baby food in with the meat, or cook the meat with the veggies and ground it up. I am thinking these guys don't think about what percentages of protein or whatever , when they are eating in the wild. Maybe we really are over thinking the diet? I think they know what is best for them, that is why they are so picky. I say we should keep offering fresh meats and produce and let them choose what they want to eat, and try to continue tweeking it by adding hidden veggies here and there. Sounds like the best thing to do.


We don't know exactly what they eat in the wild, though. There's been some research done on wild hedgehog diets, but really, there's very little known about their diets and nutritional needs (and this goes for both the Egyptian long-eareds, and African ones). So we don't know for sure how much they eat of protein versus other foods, or what the other foods might be. They also have limits to what food they have access to in the wild - the protein they get, they only get through what they can catch or what they might scavenge, and both would depend on the specific day and time. So again, who knows how much protein they're actually getting. Also, though wild animals are better at regulating diets than domesticated animals (to my knowledge), there's still no guarantee that if they have their favorite food sitting in front of them in large amounts, that they'll choose to eat a balanced diet rather than just gorge themselves on the favorite food. It's kind of like sitting a kid down with either a pile of chocolate or a nice fruit/veggie plate and telling them to choose what they want.

The information that's been shared on the forum regarding nutritional needs has been compiled mostly by owners and breeders that have been caring for hedgehogs for years (to my understanding, anyway). Scientists aren't doing studies on these guys. The opinions on what the best food for them varies throughout the years, as more is learned about the effects of what was previously used. I'm guessing that the information that's being currently parroted regarding protein and fat needs comes from past experiences of hedgehogs being fed higher protein foods and becoming sick and/or dying of liver/kidney failure.

Until we have further information from scientific studies regarding hedgehog diets and nutritional needs, personally, I'm inclined to follow the experience and advice of those who've been involved in hedgehog care for years, and have seen and experienced more issues in response to various diets.


----------



## rucadamsel

Well, we do know they eat insects in the wild, bc they are grouped with insectivores. I have also seen where they raid farms and gardens. So if u put 2 and 2 together.. Whatever the nutritional value of the insects are along with fresh fruits and vegetables. We still don't know how much of it they eat in a day. I just put a little of each thing (fruits, veggies, and meat, and the cat food) on a plate and usually most of it is gone in the morning. He seems to prefer the cooked meat over the cat food tho. If I don't give him meat, he will eat the cat food. If he gets meat, he won't touch the cat food. I don't think it is that they prefer the meat bc they are not carnivores. I think somehow they know they will find the nutrients they need in the meat. I bet if I could figure out where this guy was found (it was a farm apparently), and know what veggies were grown on that farm, then I might be able to find out what he was eating there vegetable wise. We really need a scientist or zoologist to experiment more on the subject. I will be looking into it and see what I can dig up and post it here if I find any info.


----------



## rucadamsel

Soooooo... I found this site http://petshub.com/hedgehog/hedgehog-nu ... search.php it has some good info on what hedgehogs should eat. Apparently the nutrients they get from insects is fiber and not protein like I thought. So as long as they get their fiber and a not so fatty food that they like, and don't over do the protein content, plus make sure the insects are fed with healthy food before you feed them to the hedgehog, they should be ok. Now, to figure out what combos and how much they need of it! We need a nutritionist lol. Also vitamin A and beta carotene supposedly prevents cancer.. There are also other natural herbs that prevent it as well. I was researching aroma therapy before I got into the whole hedgehog thing. I will have to look in my notes to find out which ones.


----------



## Christemo

Bringing this back. I think this is what I'm doing, especially because of all the recalls on foods. We're using it with our puppy and am probably doing it with Amelia.


----------



## Isismommy

This sounds really interesting. I will have to look into things with my girls.


----------



## Kruegon

This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. Formulated kibble and dry cat food may be acceptable, but it is not optimal. Obviously we all know this, we just don't know how to proceed. I've been doing some extensive exotic diet research for hedgies and suggies. A few things to remember: What hedgies eat in the wild and what they eat in captivity will never be the same thing. Hedgies in the wild do not live as long as they do in captivity because we strive to provide a better diet and safe environment. Nothing we feed in captivity will match wild feeding.

I saw references to pinkies and baby foods and more insects. Pinkies are not really that good. Their nutritional values are misleading because of the lack of accumulated vitamins and minerals in their bodies. Plus, in captivity, the Hedgies aren't exposed to the infectious nature they are in the wild. Their digestive tracks are not as resiliant as they are in the wild. Pinkies are served uncooked (alive or dead, and please feed dead if you do feed). It's not the best idea to ever feed raw meats to your hedgie.

Insects are more about treats and fiber content. Alot of insects are very high in phosphourous. Phosphourous blocks the absortion of calcium at a rate of 1:1. The more insects you feed the less calcium they are actually getting. Another important bit of info, most crickets and grasshoppers are raised in a corn bedding. Most reliable mealworms are raised in a bran bedding. This is important to know because corn, corn byproduct and corn bedding has a mold that is common within it that is an aflatoxin. Aflatoxin can kill a hedgie terrifyingly easily. You may say that your crickets are tested for aflatoxins and they test clean. What needs to be noted is that aflatoxin can genetically bond to the DNA of crickets. This will make them tst clean when they are actually still infected. Bran does not have this issue. This means that mealworms, and the beetles they grow into, do not suffer from aflatoxin contamination.

Baby food actualy seems to be the best option based on nutritional value vs health. Most baby food has limited preservatives or is preservative free. Little to no fillers or by-products. It's about as natural as we can get it. And we know they eat fruits and veggies in their natural states. The big trick is the balance.

We know they need probiotics. This is found most commonly in yogurt. But they are lactose intolerant. We know they need Calcium in decent amounts. But this is most commonly found in dairy products. But they are lactose intolerant. On top of that, most of the insects they eat are very high in phosphourous, which cuts the calcium absorbtion and requires a higher calcium intake to balance it out. They need fiber, which they can get in moderate amounts from the insects. Which reduces their calcium absobtion. Which requires higher calcium intake. Which is most easily found in dairy products. But they are lactose intolerant.

So hopefully you can see the circle of problems we have. The fix for each one is either increase the contents naturally or increase it with addatives. I am working on a balanced diet supplement that will work with raw fruits and veggies as well as with mealworms. Don't get your hopes up too fast. I am still in the formulation stage. Testing is still a few months off. And yes it will have baby food in it. Just the meat though. And the grain. And a couple more parts haha. I'll let you know my findings. Let's cross our fingers that it works for the babies.


----------



## LizardGirl

Kruegon, I like the level headed approach you're giving this. Looking forward to hearing what you end up finding in your research and studies.


----------



## Lilysmommy

Agreed with LizardGirl - Your post was interesting to read, and I'm still looking forward to seeing what you find out!


----------



## NessieTheHog

I'm so glad that there is a thread out here like this  I've been giving Nova Chicken and Gravy baby food and still giving her both the food she was on (Spike's Delight) and the food I am giving her (Purina One Beyond.) Although I haven't read this whole thread, I def plan on it and look forward to reading whatever information comes up.


----------



## olive2

I plan to give my little girl (I pick her up sunday) a little bit of kibble, raw and mix of vegetables. What do you think of the following foods, all Natures Variety &#8230;. Chicken Raw Boost http://www.naturesvariety.com/Instinct/ ... at/chicken or Instinct Raw http://www.naturesvariety.com/InstinctRaw/cat/chicken (many different proteins available) or Praire Chicken & Brown Rice http://www.naturesvariety.com/Prairie/c ... le/chicken (1 or 2 proteins). I want to find my hedgie the best I can afford. My parents joke my dogs Ruby & Buddy eat better then them. I'm asking about Natures variety&#8230;&#8230;because its the only food that has helped Ruby's allergy and made a tremendous improvement in her overall health.


----------



## moxieberry

I wouldn't use a raw cat/dog food for hedgehogs. Any meats they get should be cooked. The prairie kibble has pretty good ingredients but the fat is too high. Fine for a baby maybe, but hedgehogs (except for very active wheelers) should have under 15% fat.

Keep in mind that what's good for or works well for your dogs isn't necessarily going to be a good fit for a hedgehog.  Also, unless you're able to work closely with a vet nutritionist, it's best for the kibble to be the main part of the diet. Cooked meat and veggies can be included daily, but personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using that as more than half of the daily food.


----------



## SpiritWolves1

I absolutely love this topic! Dallas loves his carrot, apple, peas, broccoli, chicken and all of that and he just gobbles them up, maybe he thinks I want them too  I would love for him to eat healthy like this, but we need a scientist, I watch animal planet. Only. I know its weird for a 14 yr old to only watch animal planet but hey, maybe I'll find a name of a person who can help us! I really hope we figure.it out! But if not, I'm going to be a biologist or something like that and I'll research them! There's supposedly a lady in my town who's a.biologist, I'll see if I can contact her.


----------



## olive2

moxieberry said:


> I wouldn't use a raw cat/dog food for hedgehogs. Any meats they get should be cooked. The prairie kibble has pretty good ingredients but the fat is too high. Fine for a baby maybe, but hedgehogs (except for very active wheelers) should have under 15% fat.
> 
> Keep in mind that what's good for or works well for your dogs isn't necessarily going to be a good fit for a hedgehog.  Also, unless you're able to work closely with a vet nutritionist, it's best for the kibble to be the main part of the diet. Cooked meat and veggies can be included daily, but personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using that as more than half of the daily food.


Thanks for your input and I do know what's best for my pups doesn't nesscararily work for a Hedgie My little girl will 6 weeks when I pick her up. What kibble would you recommend? I just want to give my new quilly friend, what's best for her health.


----------



## moxieberry

Take a look at the stickies (threads at the top of the list) in the diet section. It includes a huge list of foods with their fat/protein percentages and ingredients. As long as it's good quality ingredients (meats, no fillers) and the protein/fat are in the right range (about 25-35% protein, under 15% fat). I highly suggest Chicken Soup for the Cat Lover's Soul, either the light version (9% fat) or the senior version (13% fat).

This is the condensed list of suggested foods that we recommend to anyone buying babies from us: http://www.volcanoviewhedgehogs.com/kib ... oduce.html


----------



## olive2

Thanks for your help Moxieberry


----------



## jngy slate

i would like to feed my mealworms cricket food (jurassidiet) oatmeal and some vegetables like spinach and carrots. can someone tell me what the ratio of oatmeal and cricket food and veggies i should have? also do you just put the veggies in there, and leave them for days


----------



## GoodandPlenty

This is a really old thread that you've added onto. It threw me for a minute. This would have been fine as a new standalone question.



> i would like to feed my mealworms cricket food (jurassidiet) oatmeal and some vegetables like spinach and carrots. can someone tell me what the ratio of oatmeal and cricket food and veggies i should have? also do you just put the veggies in there, and leave them for days


A lot of people keep mealworms, so if they pick back up on the thread you'll get a variety of opinions.

I can't say whether cricket food would be bad; not something that I know about.

Whether you are feeding to 'hold' mealworms or feeding to 'raise' mealworms probably makes a difference.? I expect it would for me.

I hold mealworms, so they spend most of each week in the refrigerator. I keep them in a bedding of rolled oats. I add more oats as needed and will occasionally sift out the powder that forms. I don't use a set amount of oats, but just kind of eye out that seems like enough to give the mealies some space. I reckon, say, 50 - 50ish or so.

I take them out for 24 - 36 hours every 7 - 10 days and feed apple. They get about half an apple, sliced into four or five pieces. I get the other half. Some people feed carrot slices. I don't think what you feed makes a whole lot of difference. As important as feeding, is providing moisture, which is why I like apple. It does both at the same time.

When feeding, I have to take care with ventilating the container more than usual so that mold won't begin to develop (which you will smell, rather than see).

As far as "leave for days", I don't know what people who raise mealworms do, but for 'maintenance feeding', I remove the apple slices after 24 - 36 hours and put the container back in the refrigerator. If they are still somewhat active, they can (and do) eat the oat bedding.

I allow less ventilation while holding in the refrigerator. I think that they and the bedding tend to dry out pretty fast if not well covered.

Moisture control (too moist versus too dry) is actually kind of a big deal if you hold mealworms for a number of weeks; something you have to get a feel for. I buy 1,000 large mealworms and am feeding 12 a day right now (down from 20). Obviously, the number that you feed affects the number that you buy, which affects how long you hold, and so forth.


----------



## jngy slate

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/worm.htm

this is where im getting the mealworm stuff from.


----------



## Lilysmommy

This sticky should help you out more than this thread - http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/23-farming-mealworms.html


----------



## WizardDogintheTARDIS

I would love to start making food for my Hedgie!


----------



## wifiberry

Myself I have a hedgehog. Currently I was giving my guy cat food as it was recommended however he had horrible diarrhea and he seemed sick. I asked at the pet store in another town and they told me that ash in the cat food can kill a hedgehog. There is so much speculation. I put my hedgehog onto hedgehog food, not the cheap stuff but with ingredients I could actually pronounce and knew what they were. 

Recently the place has run out of food of this type and the other hedgehog food they sell is cheap and really it looks like just a lot of crap in it. So I have been giving my boy our food. I bought extra super worms (Superworms are better when a hedgehog is fully grown because they have more substance to them instead of the shell). Currently he gets nightly extra lean beef (usually beef chunks, as it's lower in fat then ground beef, chopped and fried without any oil or butter) and other nights he gets eggs. So far I will be bluntly honest he is WAY more active even tho he was active before, he is far less huffy and much more friendly and will come to me when it's feeding time. Over all he seems like a much happier hedgehog. I just hope what I am giving him is better then the processed stuff.


----------



## Lilysmommy

Unfortunately, what you're giving him isn't better than processed stuff. It's not balanced at all - he needs calcium in his diet, and he needs much more variety than just superworms, beef, and eggs. He's going to end up with health problems due to nutritional deficiencies down the line if you continue to feed him this. Either you need to get him back on a commercial, balanced food, or you need to start doing research & expand his diet quite a bit. Please check out the following threads for more information:

http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/23066-raw-home-cooked-diets.html
http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/129409-skink-hedgehog-chow.html
http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/128865-bindi-s-raw-diet.html

I'm a huge fan of raw & homemade diets, but they need to be done carefully & with research. If they're unbalanced, they're worse than the crappiest commercial food.

Edit: If you go back to commercial food, a good quality cat food is still better than hedgehog foods. Even the best available one, Spike's Delight, is about on par with a medium quality cat food. What cat food were you giving him before? The ash thing is not true - plenty of owners, breeders, and rescues have their hedgehogs on cat food with no problems. The brand or flavor you were giving him may not have agreed with him (Wellness has been known in the past for causing loose poops in hedgehogs), or he could have had something else going on.


----------

