# More on Snarf



## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

I wanted to provide some additional details regarding Snarf's condition as some may find it useful. This is NOT intended to provide detailed information on oral tumors! The vet said this and WHS are the two most common ailments she sees in hedgehogs.

Snarf had a complete and thorough check of his mouth in March and there were no issues. Yesterday, the tumor was almost an inch wide (from what I could see) and likely extended up into his sinuses and back towards his throat. That gives you an idea of how quickly it grew. According to the vet, these are usually very, very aggressive.

There were virtually no symptoms. Snarf ate as usual, wheeled like mad and was pooping normally until Friday, when I noticed a little less than usual. The ONLY behaviorial difference I noticed was for the past two weeks, he seemed to take longer to eat mealies. I started watching him more carefully but he would sometimes devour them as usual...sometimes not. I wasn't concerned - just noted it. The morning he died, I watched him devour six mealworms and four crickets without issue.

You could not see evidence of the tumor by looking at Snarf: his nose looked fine and mouth didn't appear swollen. The tumor itself was located along the top right side of his mouth and grew both inside his teeth and on the outer side. I noticed 'something' on the roof of his mouth when he opened his mouth as I was looking at a wonky quill on his visor. I wasn't sure if it was a piece of food or a bad tooth or....?? It looked bad but not fatal. During his exam, I saw just how bad it was: it was very noticeable on the outside of his mouth when she lifted his lip/cheek area. I can't believe I couldn't see it but even there, in the exam room, when he closed his mouth, there was zero evidence.

The vet DID offer alternative treatments: anti-inflammatories and other drugs to reduce the swelling; pain meds if needed. But to what end? The vet said repeatedly and I KNOW there's nothing I could've done differently. My only suggestion for anyone would be, if your hedgies lets you, check your hedgie's mouth. It won't change the outcome, likely, but you may be able to buy some time. EDIT: Early detection MAY prevent any pain/suffering, as well.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Tumors can show up very quickly on our hedgehogs. I check mine all the time, and have had several instances where they were fine in the AM and by PM they had a lump. I had one that I was actively watching for a new tumor as he had had one removed several months earlier. At 8pm I had given him a full rub down, at 10 pm, in an area I had previously rubbed, I discovered a lump. It had swelled up that fast. If you suddenly find a lump, don't blame yourself for missing it, they can pop up suddenly.

Oral tumors are pretty nasty and because hedgehogs do not usually let you open their mouths to look around in them thoroughly, they can be extremely hard to discover. Often they grow fast and there are not many treatment options out there. For squamous cell carcinomas there has been some good results with piroxicam for slowing the cancer down and giving the hedgehog a better quality of life for a while.

Sometimes you can get lucky though. Cooper had one that we discovered early 2009. He had spit a tooth out in my hand and upon looking in his mouth, I discovered a small tumor on his lower jaw. Thankfully our vet was able to fully excise the tumor with very little permanent damage to Cooper's mouth (the removal of just a few teeth). So if you do happen to find a small tumor, don't immediately assume its a death sentence. Sometimes they can be removed.


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## xspiked (Feb 27, 2011)

Thank you both for that information. I'm sure a lot of us will be more vigilante about (trying) to check our hedgies' mouths. 

Does a fast growing tumour mean that they are in pain for less (since it suddenly grows and we find it faster than if it slowly grew)? Or are they in pain even before the tumour becomes apparant?


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't think anyone can say yes or no to those questions. What we have seen often reported in the community is that the oral tumors that show up in the upper part of the mouth tend to spread and grow faster than those in the lower portion. The upper tumors go into sinus cavities, eye sockets, etc and cause problems/pain for our little ones often quickly. Sometimes these types have already gotten quite large as they started out in the sinus cavity and only became obvious to us when they started to protrude into the mouth. IE what was initially thought to be small was actually just the tip of the iceberg.

The lower jaw, they eventually show signs of having difficulty eating. Baby cat and supplemental feeding can help with that for a while. But eventually the darn tumors do end up growing, disfiguring the jaw/mouth and causing our little ones a lot of trouble. 

Cancer sucks and our little ones are very prone to it.


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry that you & Snarf had to go through this. I do appreciate the additional info. I hope that it will help other hedgies in the future.


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## KathyTNY (Jan 21, 2011)

(((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))) to you  .

I am so sorry for your loss...........he was one of a kind your little man was.

Cancer is an evil disease, both to man and animals. We have made great strides in humans but still fail more often with animals, especially the little ones. It moves faster and more aggressively in smaller animals. In my very very saddened and humbled opinion, I believe 100% that you made the right decisions. I have witnessed the suffering in humans and other animals what cancer can do and I hate the long drawn out suffering.

Give your heart lots of time to heal and thank you so much for all the info you gave in this thread. And thanks for the gut splitting things you had your crazy little man write in his blog.

Kathy


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

Kalandra--are there any speculations as to why aphs are so prone to cancer? as i understand it, it is not common in long-eareds. i know some dog breeds are also much more prone to cancer than others...


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Oh there are lots of theories out there. Some feel it is that we still are not offering the right diet. I had an oncologist once tell me that there was some thought that some of the hedgehog cancers are caused by a virus that they pick up at birth. She told me that there was some research done on the topic ages ago, but the research was unfunded and didn't go anywhere. I remember finding some mention of it once, but with the number of medical articles for the hedgehog pathway and cancer coming out, trying to find anything on that research is getting more and more difficult.

Another theory relates back to the importation ban. Because hedgehogs were so expensive right after the importation ban, there was a huge amount of inbreeding happening. You've probably seen this mentioned in relation to WHS, but if cancer has a genetic factor it is very likely that all that careless breeding has made our hedgehogs even more prone to cancer. 

I personally think its a combination. I think there is a huge portion of it related to genetics with a bit of dietary mixed in. I feel that with careful breeding our pets may eventually get to live longer lives. I also feel that while diet has come a long way since I got my first in the mid 90s that we still are not there yet. 

I fully hope that there are enough breeders out there breeding for longevity over fancy colors that we can finally have hedgehogs that live to be 6 years or older regularly.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Years ago I heard a theory that perhaps the hardness of the food they are fed is contributing to oral tumours. It does make sense that the constant pressure of crunching such hard food could irritate the gums and mouth and increase the risk of a tumour starting.



> I fully hope that there are enough breeders out there breeding for longevity over fancy colors that we can finally have hedgehogs that live to be 6 years or older regularly.


Sadly, I don't think that is happening very often. There seem to be more breeders these days focusing on fancy colours. When we see brand new breeders who right from the start are focusing on colour, I don't hold out much hope.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

> Sadly, I don't think that is happening very often. There seem to be more breeders these days focusing on fancy colours. When we see brand new breeders who right from the start are focusing on colour, I don't hold out much hope.


Me too Nancy. I have worried for many years that those who say they are focused on health are still too focused on coloration or even extremely passive hedgehogs and are doing so at a great cost. The sheer number of pinto hedgehogs being produced is actually alarming to me. It seems that everyone is focused on producing highly spotted, split faced pintos anymore. Yes I know part of that is because owners pick those over your basic standards. But, hopefully they are picking animals from lines that are consistently living to be 5 or older and not just because the animals father was heavily spotted. Yes they are pretty, but I would much rather have your basic wb chocolate who is slightly defensive but lives a long healthy life.

I would also like to see a kibble that is the same size as the Royal Canin Baby Cat that is formulated in the correct amounts for every day use with hedgehogs. Just the wear and tear of their teeth would be greatly reduced and if there is any truth to the oral tumor theory, well that would be reduced too. I wonder if enough people wrote to RC if we could get them to expand their line.


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## ReginasMommy (Apr 13, 2011)

Kalandra said:


> I would also like to see a kibble that is the same size as the Royal Canin Baby Cat that is formulated in the correct amounts for every day use with hedgehogs. Just the wear and tear of their teeth would be greatly reduced and if there is any truth to the oral tumor theory, well that would be reduced too. I wonder if enough people wrote to RC if we could get them to expand their line.


Would mashing up kibble or trying to break it into smaller pieces be a good alternative for now?


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

Kalandra said:


> even extremely passive hedgehogs


has that been a problem?

yes, i've heard the virus theory with regard to cancer (not in hedgehogs). our vet thinks it's the limited genetic pool.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

re extremely passive. 

Oh at one time there was some thought that those that were extremely passive may have had some health issues coming with them.  I didn't mean that passive hedgehogs are less healthy, it is a very old topic that I should have probably not brought back up.

Before anyone starts to worry... I am not saying that pintos or passive hedgehogs are going to get sick or are not as healthy as other hedgehogs. It is mere concern that some breeders may be too focused on such items and not with picking hedgehogs that come from lines where WHS, and cancer do not show up so readily. I know there are breeders who are focused on breeding WHS out, I must wonder if the same focus was placed on cancer if it too could be reduced.

However, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think this is completely genetic. I think there are a number of things coming into play. Environment, nutrition, etc.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I've heard the extremely passive and health issues theory also and it too in some ways makes sense. When breeders start breeding for certain traits often the ones chosen are not necessarily the healthiest ones but rather have the trait desired. For example, the mini breeds of hedgehogs as well as other species. It's usually the runt or smallest of the litter that is bred whereas those breeding for health, would never choose the runt or the smallest. 

When I was in my early years of breeding I was told the healthiest to breed were the standard colours because the fancies were more likely to have health issues and that is still true today. It's only logical that when a breeder is wanting to produce a certain colour or pattern, they are choosing an animal that is that colour or patten whereas, one with a less desirable colour/pattern may be the best option, health/genetic/behaviour wise. 

Over the years when I was breeding I can count on one hand the number of people who wanted fancy colours or patterns. The vast majority of customers wanted dark masks, dark quills. I still believe the average customer would rather have social and healthy than a fancy colour. 

The baby cat is an wonderful hedgie friendly shape and size and I feel that is one of the reasons we have so much difficulty getting them to switch off of it. Sure it's high fat so extra yummy but the small size has to be a big part in it as well.


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## KathyTNY (Jan 21, 2011)

On the subject of small kibble .... my pogs LOVE Chicken Soup etc. and the kibble is HUGE! I have taken to soaking it about 5-8 minutes and they LOVE that! There is never one left in the morning. I only now feed them Blue Buffalo (the kibbles are nice and small and easier on their little mouths) and the Chicken Soup .....they are very happy pogs.

Kathy


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

health should be the primary concern for breeders, no doubt about that.

re passivity: Harvey is definitely extremely passive (except when he bites :roll: ), that's why i was wondering. it doesn't seem natural at all.


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