# Our downward spiral



## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Okay ill start this at the beginning.

September 15, I adopted a new girl, who I named autumn. She's quilling, so I didn't think much of her grumpiness. I brought her home, it was not more than a half hour car ride. The breeder forgot to give me a bag of transition food, so there's part of her stress. 
September 19, Alison (who bought autumn's brother) sent me a message saying he had Coccidia and a Upper Respiratory infection. I put the pieces together in my head and figured out she must have the same thing. 
September 20, took Autumn into the vet , along with the other two to see if they had caught the same thing. Neytiri and Uno were negative for sickness, but Autumn had a bit of bacteria in her poop. So she was put on clavamox. She had 7 doses of clavamox every 12 hours and found she wasnt improving. 
September 24, took autumn back into the vet (her fecal analysis came back *negative*) and she was switched to amoxicillin, and the vet gave her a wet canned low residue cat food. I gave her the amoxicillin and cat food that night and her poops were better by morning. She's been better ever since.
Tuesday, my boyfriend (who lilo and faolan live with) noticed lilo having jelly poops. 
Yesterday, Lilo goes to the vet and is negative for coccidia.
Today, Autumn is still on amoxicillan. Neytiri is having sickness symptoms. She's been eating less the past two days, and her poops have a jelly consistency. Same with Uno.

My question is this: If Autumn tested negative, how did neytiri and uno catch this sickness???? :x 
I have neytiri and uno scheduled for a vet appt on monday after i've had a few days to watch how they're doing. I moved Autumn into a separate room since she's better.
Also, I added Nature's Recipe Indoor to the food mix last week. Could stress cause this jelly poop symptom?
I can give Neytiri antibiotics as well and see if she improves? I'm so worried... This is such a crappy situation.


----------



## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

When they did the fecal, I assume it was an in house test? Did they only check for coccidia? If so, what Autumn had may have been something different that they didn't check for but that the Amoxicillin got rid of. Also, in house fecals do not catch everything and the fecals should be sent out to a lab to be tested. 

I assume that Autumn is still in quarantine so whatever is infecting them must be coming from somewhere other than her, perhaps food, treats, bugs. I would check for salmonella because of the recent issues with it in hedgehogs in some areas. Also, with the recent salmonella in pet foods issue it would be worth having full lab fecals done on them. Good luck.


----------



## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Nancy said:


> When they did the fecal, I assume it was an in house test? Did they only check for coccidia? If so, what Autumn had may have been something different that they didn't check for but that the Amoxicillin got rid of. Also, in house fecals do not catch everything and the fecals should be sent out to a lab to be tested.
> 
> I assume that Autumn is still in quarantine so whatever is infecting them must be coming from somewhere other than her, perhaps food, treats, bugs. I would check for salmonella because of the recent issues with it in hedgehogs in some areas. Also, with the recent salmonella in pet foods issue it would be worth having full lab fecals done on them. Good luck.


That's my main mess up. I didn't quarantine her. So her bin has been right next to the others for a 13 days. And she's had the symptoms from the minute we brought her home. So I know she brought it home from the breeder.

They sent the fecal out to a lab to be tested. Tonight, I gave all symptom-showing hogs a dose of amoxicillan since it cured autumn on the first dose, we'll see how they are in the morning.


----------



## Christemo (Oct 5, 2011)

What are they eating now? I'm wondering if the breeder had given her one of the recalled foods and had salmonella, then it was passed through to the other hogs maybe through cleaning?


----------



## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

They're eating Blue Buffalo chicken and rice and Nature's recipe indoor
the breeder fed her purina pro plan


----------



## TzusnHedgies (Sep 25, 2012)

I don't know about hedgehogs, but with dogs they ALL have some Coccidia in their systems. It only gets out of control if the dog is very stressed or has a weak immune system. It's very difficult to find in a fecal, so most vets go ahead and treat with Albon. So I don't understand why Albon was not given. Has the breeder been notified? She really needs to know (and compensate you!) for sending you and your friend home with a sick hedgehog.


----------



## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

I just want to confirm something. You know what Autumn needs to get the entire course of antibiotics, right? You will need to go get more amoxicillan from the vet for the others as well, since you went ahead and started them. It's very important that you finish the entire course of medication for each animal that has been started on the antibiotics.

One of the top reasons why certain infections will resurface as "superbacteria" is because owners saw an improvement in their pet, and stopped giving meds. Residual infections then develop immunity to the antibiotics. So Autumn is not "cured" just yet. It's just in the wording it sounded weird, so I thought I might mention it. If you already know all this, then please disregard, I just wanted to mention it, just in case, and for future reference of others who may read this. 

And this is also why quarantine is always important. I know I've read that some owners are surprised people still suggest to quarantine even though the animal is from a breeder. It doesn't matter where the animal came from, they should always be quarantined. Especially one that has been showing sickness since day 1 of coming home. It's even more important to quarantine. 

How have you been cleaning? Try to think about how you have handled your herd. Were hands washed between handling, were shirts changed between handling. I would assume it's something through handling, rather than being airborne(since the two at your bfs are showing signs of sickness, which meant that either you or your bf didn't wash hands/change prior to going there and touching the other two). You might even want to think about buying an extra bin for everyone. That way, you can bleach the crap out of the bins, let them airdry for 24 hours, then switch out and bleach the other one. It's probably the best way to ensure no bacteria goes unkilled lol Sure it may be overkill, but you want to nip it before it becomes a reoccuring infection, as it'll just get harder and harder to kill. 
So example, Autumn gets two bins. She's currently in bin 1. You set up bin 2 for her, and put her in, then spray bin 1 down with bleach and leave it for 10-30 min. Rinse thoroughly, and allow a day to air dry. Then prepare bin 1 with bedding and such, and move Autumn back to bin 1, while you repeat the cleaning process with bin 2. (The leaving it for 24hours is to allow the smell of the bleach to go poof, so your hedgies won't get bombarded with bleach smell). It's going to be time consuming, but to keep your breeding herd in tact and to keep reinfection from happening (It's a bad place to bring babies into too. Kind of like another on the fb page, her hedgie herd has been sick, got an oops litter, and babies all died/were killed and she almost lost the mom. It could have been a complete freak accident, but it also serves as a learning experience for others. As a breeder, you should always try to ensure good healthy babies. Which, I'm sure you can really appreciate now in your situation, so I know you'll do good on that part )

And that was way more than I had initially intended to write XD But just wanted to give some suggestions on how to proceed to keep reinfection from happening, cause that's worse than the initial infection.


----------



## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Immortalia said:


> I just want to confirm something. You know what Autumn needs to get the entire course of antibiotics, right? You will need to go get more amoxicillan from the vet for the others as well, since you went ahead and started them. It's very important that you finish the entire course of medication for each animal that has been started on the antibiotics.
> 
> One of the top reasons why certain infections will resurface as "superbacteria" is because owners saw an improvement in their pet, and stopped giving meds. Residual infections then develop immunity to the antibiotics. So Autumn is not "cured" just yet. It's just in the wording it sounded weird, so I thought I might mention it. If you already know all this, then please disregard, I just wanted to mention it, just in case, and for future reference of others who may read this.
> 
> ...


I emailed the breeder and asked for compensation for the vet costs. If she doesn't , I'll just report her USDA license.

I am giving her all of her meds. I have a full bottle of amoxicillan and she only gets .6cc a day.

Uno didn't wheel last night, or eat very much. Neytiri didn't eat much, but she wheeled.


----------



## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Also, Uno's poops are bright green and jelly. That's how autumns were when the previous clavamox didnt agree with her. I'll stop giving him amoxicillan, and continue with autumn and neytiri until they've had it for seven days


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I wouldn't stop giving him medicine just because his poop has gone off - antibiotics tend to do that. I would double check with the vet however, and make sure it's okay to be treating them with the antibiotics. Most vets would be willing to give an answer to that over the phone, if you describe whether he has the same symptoms as Autumn. To help with his system dealing with the antibiotics, you can give him (and the others as well) probiotics between antibiotic doses to try and help good bacteria in his gut between antibiotics. You can use small animal Benebac or what I used, human acidophilus, found in the pharmacy section of stores. I just put a good-sized pinch on food (or mixed in with syringed food) and gave it to them in the middle of the day or at least a few hours before/after an antibiotic dose. If you give it at the same time or too close, it'll just make it useless since the antibiotic will kill the good bacteria in the probiotics.


----------



## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Antibiotics can make poops nasty, for the reasons Lilysmommy explained. Good and bad bacteria in the digestive system are destroyed. Often it takes a few days after the full period of antibiotics are given before it goes back to normal - so it's definitely not a reason to stop the antibiotics. You should never stop antibiotics before the full round is complete, unless a vet tells you to.


----------



## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

You've just learned a hard lesson in why quarantining is imperative. It's even more important for breeders with moms and babies who are at risk of getting sick. I quarantine for 4 weeks if hedgie is coming from a only pet household. If there are other pets, or from a shelter or unknown situation, then 6 weeks. 

Uno needs to stay on the antibiotic until you've spoken with the vet and have something to replace it with. To take him off now is going to enable the bacteria to grow and thrive and make it worse than it was. Bright green and jelly may also be the progression of whatever he has and another day or two of the antibiotic will start to turn it around. 

Edited to add: Moxie was saying the same thing as me at the same time. :lol:


----------



## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Great minds, Nancy!


----------



## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Lilysmommy said:


> I wouldn't stop giving him medicine just because his poop has gone off - antibiotics tend to do that. I would double check with the vet however, and make sure it's okay to be treating them with the antibiotics. Most vets would be willing to give an answer to that over the phone, if you describe whether he has the same symptoms as Autumn. To help with his system dealing with the antibiotics, you can give him (and the others as well) probiotics between antibiotic doses to try and help good bacteria in his gut between antibiotics. You can use small animal Benebac or what I used, human acidophilus, found in the pharmacy section of stores. I just put a good-sized pinch on food (or mixed in with syringed food) and gave it to them in the middle of the day or at least a few hours before/after an antibiotic dose. If you give it at the same time or too close, it'll just make it useless since the antibiotic will kill the good bacteria in the probiotics.


I've been giving them all amoxicillan and benebac but hes not eating so the benebac isn't really getting eaten. Neytiri and Uno have a Vet appointment tomorrow at 5:20


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

If he's not eating, he needs to be syringe-fed so he doesn't develop more issues from not eating. You can mix the Benebac in with whatever food you're syringing so he gets it.


----------



## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Lilysmommy said:


> If he's not eating, he needs to be syringe-fed so he doesn't develop more issues from not eating. You can mix the Benebac in with whatever food you're syringing so he gets it.


Sounds good


----------



## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Tabi I just wanted to say that this situation really sucks and I'm sorry you're having to go through all this. Did you ever get an satisfaction from your conversation with the breeder?


----------



## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

hedgielover said:


> Tabi I just wanted to say that this situation really sucks and I'm sorry you're having to go through all this. Did you ever get an satisfaction from your conversation with the breeder?


She won't compensate me for Autumn's vet bills, so I reported her license. I hope it helps her animals.. i feel bad for them.


----------



## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Tabi said:


> hedgielover said:
> 
> 
> > Tabi I just wanted to say that this situation really sucks and I'm sorry you're having to go through all this. Did you ever get an satisfaction from your conversation with the breeder?
> ...


That's too bad. Hopefully Autumn is better soon and you can try to forgot about the rough start.


----------

