# Some questions regarding diet (protein values)



## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

I have some questions regarding the nutritional values and ingredients/analytical constituents of (cat) food. As always I'm trying to find better options when it comes to food (not only cat food, but also treats).

My hedgehogs are currently on Royal Canin Fit 32 mixed with Royal Canin Light 40 (he had to lose some weight but is good for now) and since my other is still a baby, she's on Royal Canin Babycat. I am planning on switching her to the same food(s) my male gets when she's a little older, depending on her needs.

Let me list the first ingredients of RC Fit 32:

_dehydrated poultry meat, rice, maize, maize, gluten, dehydrated pork protein, animal fats, vegetable fibres, hydrolysed oil, fish oil, egg powder and the list goes on.

Analytical constituents: protein 32% fat 15% fibre 4.4%_

RC Light 40:

_dehydrated poultry meat, maize, vegetable protein isolate, vegetable fibres, maize gluten, hydrolysed animal proteins, animal fats, beet pulp etc.

Analytical constituents: protein 40% fat 10% fibre 7.3%_

From what I've read you need to subtract the moisture from 100 and divide each of the protein, fat, and fiber values by this number. 
If you do this the % of the values changes significantly. But is anyone actually doing this? I checked some foods on the recommended foods list and they're listed with their regular values, not the DMB ones. I cannot find the moisture content of my foods on the bags but I'm guessing all the values will end up being a little higher.
So - any thoughts about this? Because when I do the moisture thing I cannot find suitable kibble. At all.

Here's what my hedgehogs are getting on a weekly basis (there are some small differences between the two but most things are the same. And the 2 tbsp is an estimate, they're free fed)










I was wondering if I should drop the wet cat food or not. They're getting it since it's actually of better quality than the dry food (it's basically just meat or fish) and they really like it, but since the moisture is a lot higher, the protein and fat are high too. Fat's still low but I'm concerned about the protein. Since the dry food is quite high in protein too, it might be too much? Esp together with some of the high protein treats. I don't know if the moisture in the wet food evens it out (since dry protein is harder to digest). 
I'm no fan of dry kibble and I prefer a more natural diet but since there isn't a lot of information about the right nutrition when it comes to hedgehogs, keeping cat food in their menu seems like a safer way for now. I'm currently looking more into dog foods as well (dry kibble) to see if there's something with proper ingredients while still being low in fat and not too high in protein.

Any input will be greatly appreciated!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

From what I've read and heard, the reason most people don't adjust for DMB with dry food is because the moisture is so low in it. Because wet food has so much moisture, to get a more accurate idea of the amounts of protein & fat, you do calculate the DMB for that.

As far as the wet food, again from what I've heard, the higher protein that you find with wet food is less of a concern than it is with dry kibble because of the moisture. Excess protein is processed & filtered out by the kidneys, which need a lot of water to do that job. Dry kibble that's high in protein is hard on them because there's more protein, but no added moisture to help with processing it - so the animal either has to drink more, or if they don't, that opens up the possibility of kidney issues. I remember LizardGirl saying once that it's probably not a huge concern unless you have a hedgehog that's susceptible to kidney issues, but...I'm not sure there's really a way to tell that before the point where they already have problems. The wet food is less of an issue since there's so much more moisture to help with processing the protein. That's why wet food is better for dogs and especially for cats (because they don't drink much water - with a natural diet, they'd get most of the water they need from their prey). 

Your diet looks awesome, especially the variety! Personally I'd leave the wet food in, if the fat's not an issue for them. Looking into dog foods is a good idea, as protein is usually lower than cat food. Other than needing to break the kibble up so it's easier for them to eat, there's no reason to not look into dog food. If you're still concerned about the protein & fat content of the wet cat food, you could always check into wet dog food as well. I would guess the protein content would be a bit lower, at least.

A comment on the treats and such - like I said, I love the variety you have. Since you mentioned you're always looking for more ideas, have you considered slugs or de-shelled snails? I know Fluker's sells canned snails with the shells removed, not sure if you guys would have them available or from another source over there. I know a member we had on here who was Russian mentioned that it's a common part of diets given to Russian hedgehogs.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Thank you Kelsey!

The DMB stuff makes sense. Lots of people feed their cats total crap here it seems :| since it's so hard to find something suitable. And most good brands are insanely high in protein. 
I have been looking online at some dog food brands, and I've found quite a couple of them with lower protein and fat (could be good for a mix) and better ingredients. Most of them are without grains, which is good - but they usually switch the grains for rice and/or potato. Not sure if that'd be bad (or even worse)? Although it's probably easy to be better than RC.
Most people with hedgehogs here feed RC Fit 32 and when their hog is overweight they give RC Light 40. I prefer a mix though for variation so I'm always looking for suitable brands but they're so hard to find...

One of the downsides to the dog foods (esp the better brands, which are often from other countries or even continents - a couple of them seem to come from Canada): they usually only sell it in huge bags. I'm afraid these massive amounts would go stale. Not to mention the waste of food and money if my hedgehogs don't like it... 

My previous hedgehog had bladder stones (the operation resulted in his death, although it was because of the anaesthesia not the stones) which can be linked to the kidneys so I might be a little over concerned when it comes to protein and stuff like that.
(Although it was most likely genetic - it was always hard to keep his weight low, he was on RC light and an IAMS light food. The vet told me he'd seen this problem once before in a hedgehog but I don't know which food it was on).

The whole wet food/protein thing was what I'd heard as well but I wasn't sure if it was true or not. But I think I'll leave the wet food in, and it's a good idea to start looking for it in the dog section. 

We don't have Fluker's here. I have searched for canned snails online but couldn't find them. The site where I get my live insects from did have some snails and slugs listed (live ones) but they were out of stock. I want to try them when (if) they come back though.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I would consider rice & potato to be better than grains, personally. Wheat is a pretty common allergen in animals, and I believe corn is too. Rice is easier for most animals to digest (I know it's used for dogs with sensitive stomachs or other food issues going on), and potato is often used for dogs that have sensitivities or allergies to grains. The other plus is that it's unlikely for either to be GMO products, as far as I know, if you're getting foods from our side of the ocean. Corn and soy are two huge GMO crops, which I'm starting to put more effort into avoiding.

I definitely don't envy you the food search...I've read stories on here & elsewhere about how hard it can be to find a variety of decent dog/cat foods in some other countries. Good luck with your search! I'm glad the dog foods are looking more suitable, at least. I definitely don't blame you for being concerned with protein content because of that. It's definitely some thing I'll be keeping in mind for future hedgies, as well as cats and other animals. I'm really getting to be more and more of a fan of raw or cooked diets that are closer to a natural diet, or at least wet foods that include more moisture. I have a feeling I'll be trying out more of a raw or homemade diet for my future hedgies, if they cooperate with it at all. 

Do you have friends or know other people in your country with hedgehogs and/or dogs? I wonder if you might be able to work out a deal with one or two people where you can pool your money together to buy a big bag of dog food, then split it between everyone so that the food doesn't go to waste and the cost is less for everyone. That depends on someone else being interested in finding better foods for their animals though...as well as the animals all being happy with the food! I know it's been suggested before that you can contact the companies that make the food & see if they can send you sample bags...could you perhaps check into doing that for the foods you're interested in, so you can try it out with the hedgies for approval?


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

I feel you with the bags/sacks draenog. They sell the same here in the middle-east. Supplies are so much better down in the Philippines where they sell everything in small bags, sachets and low portions i.e. 1/4kg making try outs for pet food easy, cheap and not a waste.

I regularly feed small frogs and snails as well. That's like calcium, hydrolyzed protein, easily digestible fats, moisture plus other goodies packed into a small volume. I know most people are squeamish or against about feeding live but there are available canned frog legs sold as well.

For some weird reason, my hedgehogs adjusted well with just a once a day feeding of dry kibbles and i think they're getting fat now. As i saw you guys mention the ( ) shape for fat hedgies that should be tear shaped instead.

How do yours react to locusts the first time? My hedgies act weird whenever they smell a cricket or a grasshopper in their tubs. Their faces distort hahaha


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

I would never have thought of GMO, it isn't such a thing here but it might be good to keep an eye out for it when buying food from overseas. Although there aren't many US brands yet (I think), most of them are European others Canadian. I don't know if GMO is a thing in Canada too.

Raw/homemade diets are great imo but it takes a lot of time as well. I'm not always at home and I can't expect the others here to feed a very complicated meal including "nasty things" like dead baby mice. I am experimenting more with pre-made portions though, by mixing kibble with veggies and meat/insects to make a varied mix. It's easy to toss it in the blender and freeze it in small portions.
I'm lucky to have a hedgehog (Týr) who eats literally anything you put in his bowl, and Skaði is starting to eat more things as well.

I "know" a few people through the internet with hedgehogs and I met one of them twice, but she lives far away. (Yes, that's how rare APHs are here). As for people with dogs, not many either, at least no good friends just people I don't see that often.
Sample bags would be great but I wonder if that's an option with food from other countries/continents. The shipping costs would most likely be insanely high. 
I'm going to a big pet store today since I need to get a couple of things and I'll check the dog food section, although I doubt they have the brands I've found online. But they usually have different bags in the pet store.
Some of the brands I've found have bags for small dogs, with smaller pieces of kibble and the bags are smaller too so that might be an option too. 

Tongue_Flicker I don't think I can get my hands on frogs here, and the canned ones meant for human consumption usually have added herbs or spices, salt/pepper etc.

My hedgehogs just eat them... Skaði doesn't get locusts yet since they're too big for her. But Týr just chews on it, eats the soft parts and leaves the exoskeleton. It's disgusting.

Some foods I found (lots of them seem to have a ton of herbs and stuff like that, not sure if they're all suitable for hedgehogs);

*Taste of the Wild Sierra Mountain*
_Protein 25%, fat 15%, fibre 4%_

_Lamb, lamb meal, sweet potatoes, potatoes, peas, canola oil, egg product, roasted lamb, tomato pomace, natural flavor, salt, choline chloride, mixed tocopherols (a preservative), dried chicory root, taurine, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

_Smallest bag is 6.8 kg, still big but not extremely big as some of the others... (it's extremely expensive though)

*Acana Singles Lamb and Apple *
_Protein 27%, fat 15%, fibre 3%_

_New Zealand lamb meal, steamed oats, peas, sunflower oil, de-boned New Zealand lamb, red delicious apples, natural lamb flavor, flaxseed, alfalfa leaf, pumpkin, turnip greens, cranberries, saskatoon berries, organic sea vegetables (kelp, bladderwrack, dulse), burdock root, marshmallow root, juniper berries, fenugreek, sweet fennel, angelica root, sea buckthorn, chicory root, stinging nettle, red raspberry leaf, milk thistle, peppermint leaf, marigold flowers, chamomile flowers, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium. Vitamins (vit. A, vit. D3, vit. E, niacin, riboflavin, lysine, thiamine mononitrate, vit. B12, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin). Minerals (iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, manganese proteinate, cobalt proteinate, copper proteinate)_

Not sure about the steamed oats and peas here... and alfalfa? Smallest bag is 2.27 kg.

And there's some food from Germany but I couldn't find an English description so I tried to translate it...
*
GranataPet Senior Turkey*
_Protein 22%, fat 11%, fibre 4.5%_

_Poultry (38%, dried and finely ground, 70% turkey), potato flakes, potato (finely ground), pomegranate seeds (7%), poultry fat, salmon oil (1%), vegetable fibers, minerals, yeast, chicory (0,5%, finely ground, supplies FOS and inulin), spirulina (0.1%, finely ground), New Zealand green-lipped mussel (0.1%, finely ground, naturally rich in glucosamine and chondroitin), Yucca schidigera_
*
GranataPet Adult Lamb*
_Protein 23%, fat 13%, fibre 4.6%_

_Lamb (27%, dried and finely ground), potato flakes, poultry meat (14%, dried and finely ground), potato (finely ground), pomegranate seeds (7%), poultry fat, salmon oil (1%), vegetable fibers, minerals, yeast, chicory (0.5%, finely ground, supplies FOS and inulin), spirulina (0.1%, finely ground), New Zealand green-lipped mussel (0.1%, finely ground, naturally rich in glucosamine and chondroitin), Yucca schidigera_

*GranataPet Adult Poultry*
_Protein 26%, fat 15%, fibre 4.6%

__Poultry meat (41%, dried and finely ground), potato flakes, potato (finely ground), poultry fat (8%), pomegranate seeds (7%), salmon oil (1%), vegetable fibers, minerals, yeast, chicory (0, 5%, finely ground, supplies FOS and inulin), spirulina (0.1%, finely ground), New Zealand green-lipped mussel (0.1%, finely ground, naturally rich in glucosamine and chondroitin), Yucca schidigera

_Comes in bags of 4 kg or more.
*
Lupo Natural Swiss Poulet*_
Protein 24%, fat 9.6%, fibre 5.7%
_
_Dried Swiss chicken meat (Poulet Suisse, 29%), Steamed potatoes, Dried arctic sea fish, Brown wholemeal rice, Pureed vegetables (swede, chicory, celery, chard, parsnips, parsley roots), Cold-pressed vegetable oils (flaxseed oil, rapeseed oil, walnut oil, evening primrose oil), Chestnut flour, Rice germ, Sea food ingredients (seaweed, shellfish meat,fish oil, crustaceans), Alpine herbs (alfalfa, fennel, nettles, dandelion, caraway, chamomile, thyme, fenugreek seeds, raspberry leaves, blackberry leaves, gentian), Milk thistle seeds, Healing earth, Rosemary oil, Marigold flowers_

Comes in 1.5 kg bags, so that's good! Also really low in fat, might be good to mix with a higher fat one.

That's about it... there might be some more, with higher fat levels for example which could be used when mixed with a lower fat food but these are the suitable ones so far.
Edit: they're all dog foods, obviously.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I've been exploring a new website that a friend who does a lot of research on dog food & nutrition told me about. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ On that site, the first food has 3.5 stars (out of 5), but the Acana food has a bit higher rating of 4 stars. Unfortunately the others aren't on there, I'm guessing since they're not found over here. As far as the herbs and such...My tentative guess would be that they're in such small amounts in the food that they're unlikely to cause an issue. I would think it probably helps that your hedgies wouldn't be getting the kibble and only the kibble every single night - they get plenty of other foods included and alternated with it. But as far as I know, there's likely not much research done on them either (at least not as far as their inclusion in pet food or long-term effects on dogs/cats). I guess if I were making the choice, personally I'd choose one of these foods over Royal Canin, because the ingredients still seem to be of higher quality and better nutrition to me.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Thank you, I came across that website when I was looking for the ingredients in English. It is a great website indeed!

Taste of the Wild was rather low on my list already but mostly because the bags are just huge. I really don't know what to do with over 6 kg of dog food. 2 kg is a lot already. 
I'd love to have three, or maybe two different foods in my mix. RC isn't very good so it would be great if I can just ditch it (of course I'd have to slowly mix everything in/out).

I went to the pet store today and there was one :-| :-| suitable food but it was of lesser quality than the ones I've found online so I didn't buy it. I did found frozen one day old chicks though, which is great because I have been looking for them for a while now. I hope the hedgehogs like it (I have a short tailed opossum too, so it'll be mainly for her unless the hedgehogs really enjoy it. Not sure if it'll be too big for them).

I am thinking of getting the Acana Singles Lamb and Apple together with the Lupo Natural Swiss Poulet. This because the last one is very low in fat - and since Acana has such good reviews, I could get the Acana Ranchlands too, which is 17% fat. I think a mix of these three would make a good combination. The first has lamb, the second chicken and the third beef which is great imo.

*Acana Ranchland*
Protein 31%, fat 17%, fiber 5%

_Deboned beef, beef meal, green peas, deboned lamb, lamb meal, whiteﬁsh meal*, herring oil, ﬁeld beans, red lentils, whole potato, salmon meal, deboned bison, beef liver, lamb liver, sun-cured alfalfa, pea ﬁbre, whole apples, whole pears, sweet potato, whole pumpkin, butternut squash, parsnips, carrots, spinach greens, cranberries, blueberries, kelp, chicory root, juniper berries, angelica root, marigold ﬂowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, lavender, rosemary, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, niacin, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation produc_t

The protein might be a little too low with these three though... (darn, this is hard :lol: ) Okay... I'll just go on with my search 'till I've found the perfect mix :-? Maybe if I throw in a (higher protein) cat food...

Oh and they'd better poop sweet, softly scented poops with all these herbs! :roll: :lol:


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

:lol: Yeah, good luck with that!

That does sound like a great mix though! I'm glad you've been able to find something. A higher protein cat food may not be a bad addition, but I would think that the insects & such that you're supplementing would help with the protein levels in their overall diet as well. And that's neat that your pet store sells day-old chicks, I've never seen one around here that does. Mostly you can only get rats & mice of varying sizes...though there's several websites that you can order chicks, rabbits, & other things for raw feeding from, which is nice. Good luck trying the chicks with the hedgies! I'd be interested to know if they do give them a try.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

It seems like most cat foods really are crap (even more so than most dog foods), so I think I'll just go for these three. The wet food is higher in protein and so are most of the treats. If the fat in the wet food bothers them I can always give more low fat-high protein treats to even it out. 

I'll keep you posted on the day old chicks! Didn't know they sold them either, I knew about the mice/rats and they have some insects (only the standard ones). Found lots of raw meat too in all kinds of flavours (deer, duck, rabbit etc - I currently have rabbit in my freezer from a different pet shop, but they didn't have as much)


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

So I promised to keep you posted, I gave Týr a day old chick yesterday. Didn't give one to Skaði because they are pretty big and I thought something half her size would be a bit too much. :lol:
When I put Týr back in his cage after cuddle time he sniffed at it (rather enthusiastic) but didn't do anything. I went to bed (the hedgehogs are in my bedroom) and within two minutes I heard him ripping and chewing on it. It sounded really disgusting, the ripping/chewing and cracking of bones but I sneaked up to his cage to watch him eat and he seemed to love it. Not good for people who can't stand dead animals though because it's quite a mess.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

:lol: I bet it is. That's great that he loved it though! I hope my future hedgies are as adventurous as Týr, heh. Thanks for following up with that!


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