# too much protien?



## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

My 4 month old hedgie Dallas (Dally) eats Extrusion ferret food and it has 38% protein and then i mix 30 pieces of it with hamburger ( boiled and drained) boiled carrot and hard boiled egg,i will also throw in a bit of broccoli and the white broccoli and sometimes chicken( lol cant spell the real name of white broccoli) and i give him 1 tbs of it and he usually eats everything but there will be a crumb or 2 left in the bowl. ive been told this is way to high amount of protein and could damage his kidneys, is there a good mix of cat foods and real meat i could buy in wal-mart or at my vet ( CowTown) ?


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## rucadamsel (Apr 27, 2012)

Who exactly told you it was too much protein? A vet? I am no expert on hedgehog diet and I am just learning about the little critters myself, but in the wild, they live off of bugs and small rodents and lizards, garden vegetables and such. So I am guessing that lots of protein is vital for hedgehogs. Sound like you are feeding him, what everyone else is feeding with the exception of ferret food. Idk what the difference is between that and cat food, but maybe u should switch and then the diet will be okay? Oh and * Cauliflower * is the name of the white broccoli hehehe..


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

rucadamsel said:


> Who exactly told you it was too much protein? A vet? I am no expert on hedgehog diet and I am just learning about the little critters myself, but in the wild, they live off of bugs and small rodents and lizards, garden vegetables and such. So I am guessing that lots of protein is vital for hedgehogs. Sound like you are feeding him, what everyone else is feeding with the exception of ferret food. Idk what the difference is between that and cat food, but maybe u should switch and then the diet will be okay? Oh and * Cauliflower * is the name of the white broccoli hehehe..


35% is the absolute highest protein content that a hedgehog's diet should have; a lot of people will cut it off around 33%. Higher can stress the liver too much and lead to fatty liver disease. They're supposed to have moderately high protein (around 30%) but not TOO high. Cat food is used because there are a lot of them with good ingredients that also fit into the correct ranges for fat and protein (under 15% fat, 28-33%(ish) protein).

SpiritWolves1 - if you're limited to Walmart, your best option is Purina ONE. (There are a lot of Purina brands - Purina ONE is the one you'll want.) Any Walmart should have it, or if not, you can order it to be sent to the store using the website. You can still feed the vegetables daily, but I would suggest giving the beef every few days, also in a smaller amount. 1 teaspoon is better. It should be in addition to a normal amount of cat food, which is 1-2 tablespoons typically. You don't want beef to be the main part of what he eats. If I remember correctly, beef is a little over 50% protein content - much too high to be the main part of a hedgehog's diet. It's also higher in fat than chicken.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Not all vets are experts on hedgehog diets either, unfortunately. Yes, it is too much protein, going by everything I've been told or read since I first started reading on here. I have always seen that 35% protein is the HIGHEST you want to go. I cannot say that it will do something like kill your hedgehog instantly. But I would guess that it could cause problems in the long-term with his liver and/or kidneys, and you should seriously check into switching out the ferret food so you don't cause health issues in the future.

As far as food you're going to find from your vet or at Walmart...There's not a lot of choices. I wouldn't suggest buying food from your vet - they often charge a LOT more for it than you'd find someplace else. Walmart isn't going to have very good cat foods - most of their pet foods are crap. Is there any chance you could get to an actual pet store and look? A bag of good quality cat food will last you at least a couple of months, so it's not like you'd have to go to the pet store very often. If you absolutely cannot get to a pet store, I think your best bet in a Walmart would be Purina One Beyond. 

Also, as a side note, if he's eating up every bit of food you give him, you should probably be giving him more - you want to free-feed him (especially if he's underweight, I think I recall seeing you mention this somewhere), which means giving him enough food that there's a little bit left in the morning. You can't solve a too-high-protein issue by offering less food. The only way to fix it is to CHANGE the food.


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## rucadamsel (Apr 27, 2012)

Yikes! 38% just in the ferret food... It's good to know the max protein they should have is 35%. Thanks for the info! I didn't think they could over dose on the protein lol. I was feeding mine fresh fruits (can't get him to eat veggies)and bread and cooked meat when I first got him and he was doing fine on that until I got him some cat food. Now I mix it. Maybe the OP could try that until he/she finds a good cat food? I think the pet store would have a better variety.


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

okay thanks, lol my mom went out last night and bought some canned cat food, a beef one and a turkey one, they both had well the meats, real meats lol, chicken and liver in them, they only have 8.0% protein, and so i have them both a teaspoon of each, so see if they liked one better, they didnt care lol and a teaspoon of the hamburger/carrot/egg and Dally eats pretty much anything you put in the dish ( lucky me!) but Kumo didnt eat hardly any of it, he hasnt been eating lately, he only ate a bit of everything and licked up the sauce from the canned food.

I am going shopping on tuesday and will be buying Purina One i am going to have to read soooo many labels before i buy anything im a really picky person, i want them to be healthy, but i guess im going to have to be like Dally lol, i am also going to add more veggies/ fruit to their diets, we got bananas! haha and a bunch of other fruits and veggies too


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Make sure you check the list of fruits/vegetables that are okay for them. Some things (grapes, citrus/acidic ones, etc) aren't good to feed hedgehogs. Wet (canned) cat foods are also calculated differently because the protein/fat percentages there are given along with how much moisture, whereas dry kibble is calculated without the moisture. So 8% protein in a canned food that has 60% moisture is actually going to be considerably more than that when you take the moisture out of the equation.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Canned food is the most misguiding. You need to calculate the protein by dry matter. Canned are usually considerably much higher protein and should essentially be fed as a treat. What's the % moisture?


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

I cant edit anymore, but here's the thread on calculating the REAL nutritional %
http://hedgehogcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11177&p=97269&hilit=calculation#p97269


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## raerysdyk (Oct 21, 2011)

SpiritWolves1 said:


> okay thanks, lol my mom went out last night and bought some canned cat food, a beef one and a turkey one, they both had well the meats, real meats lol, chicken and liver in them, they only have 8.0% protein, and so i have them both a teaspoon of each, so see if they liked one better, they didnt care lol and a teaspoon of the hamburger/carrot/egg and Dally eats pretty much anything you put in the dish ( lucky me!) but Kumo didnt eat hardly any of it, he hasnt been eating lately, he only ate a bit of everything and licked up the sauce from the canned food.


I would keep a close eye on little Kumo. If he isn't eating, fatty liver disease can set in fairly quickly. Also, I would be worried about dehydration too- if he isn't drinking either. I would count kibble and weigh your little one daily if they aren't eating. If Kumo continues to not eat I would immediately get him to a vet so they can advise you on how to syinge feed your little one.

I hope you were able to get out and buy some new food. Good luck and keep us updated!


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

okay umm.. i dont know the moisture ^.^' i threw out the cans oops. Umm i can buy some more tomorrow or like look at the moisture level on the can at the store, my mom bought them and she emptied the cans into a container and told me to throw them out.

Kumo drinks just fine, and eats most of the food but he gets the same as Dally and Dally eats everything. im going to talk to the teacher as soon as i possibly can about him,and because of the tumor ( the antibiotics arent working at all now and its just getting bigger, slowly but it is, so we are assuming for now its a tumor. it is up to her what she wants to do with him now, the most humane thing would be in my opinion to put him down, its just getting bigger and there isnt anything they can do about it. :'(


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

i feel like such a stupid retard! i go out and buy cat food thats amazing quality and then get home and remember, i forgot to look at the protein in it. 38% just like the other bag! god i feel so stupid! i should have looked at the stupid protein in it before i bought it. now what the **** is he supposed to eat untill i get another bag of stuff? i dont want him to die and for it to be all my fault. i feel so stupid!

and i bought some other stuff and again didnt read the label but its okay i guess?? it has 13% protein but 85% moisture how much is it?


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

That's 87% protein. 

100-85% moisture = 15
13/15 x100 = 87% protein. 

Just take the new bag in for an exchange.


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

thanks, so that is way to much, but i already opened the bag... the wet food has how much in it!?

13% protein
85%moisture?


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## MLHollywood (Apr 22, 2012)

Immortalia said:


> That's 87% protein.
> 
> 100-85% moisture = 15
> 13/15 x100 = 87% protein.


The method for finding out is here: http://cats.about.com/cs/catfood/a/reading_labels.htm


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## Brunswick (Feb 20, 2012)

Some places will let you return opened pet food and if they don't, they will probably let you exchange it. Pet Smart is really good about that and Walmart seems to have a pretty lenient return policy


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

In case my previous post seemed to be unclear...

Your canned wet food has 87% protein.

The thread that I linked that's on page 1, it has a more simpler explaination on how to calculate the real protein of the dry matter.


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

wow.. i dont know what to feed him now then.


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## coribelle (Jan 20, 2012)

http://hedgehogcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15

This is a really good link with all the different dry food options. I don't know if you have seen it before or not, but I found it to be super helpful when I was picking out a food for my little one. 
If you have seen this before, hahaha sorry then!


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

coribelle said:


> http://hedgehogcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15
> 
> This is a really good link with all the different dry food options. I don't know if you have seen it before or not, but I found it to be super helpful when I was picking out a food for my little one.
> If you have seen this before, hahaha sorry then!


I was just grabbing this link, you beat me to it!

Yes - there's a ton of info in that thread, including a list of suggested foods and a huge chart that compares pretty much every dry cat food out there. On the chart, the good ones are in a different color text. You want a food that's 28-33% protein, under 15% fat, and made with good ingredients. That means little/no fillers (corn, corn meal, etc.) and preferably at least the first ingredient (or two or three ingredients) should be meat or meat meal (such as chicken, chicken meal).


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

so tonight and stuff until i buy new food can i just feed his this:

1 teaspoon hard boiled egg
1 teaspoon applesauce ( non sweetened)
1 1/2 teaspoon hamburger
1 slices of carrot
1 tablespoon of cauliflower and broccoli mix
1/2 teaspoon of the ferret food

just wondering because my mom says the food is per serving


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## rucadamsel (Apr 27, 2012)

Personally, I would just feed him everything u just mentioned except the ferret food. My hedgehog has been eating a mix of beef and fish or chicken and chicken liver mixed with apples, a little rice, and green peppers. Eggs too.That is a mix of the foods he likes. He seems happy and healthy. I omitted the cat food bc he wouldn't touch it after getting real food. I already mentioned on another thread that commercial pet food is unhealthy from chemical additives and also they put roadkill and dead and diseased farm animals into pet foods. What I have found from my research is that there is a huge possibility that it causes tumors and cancers in pets. Check out the holistic diet thread. I just bumped it up for u in new posts. You will find some good recipes to feed ur little guy a natural diet.


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

rucadamsel, I know you have best intentions, so I don't want to come across as discouraging you from researching and sharing your findings here. However, I want to warn against making too many assumptions as to what hedgehogs need and what's right for every hedgie out there. What works for your wild caught hedgehog very likely may not work for our pet hedgies, which are a different species and have been raised in captivity. Most of our pets aren't even open to eating many foods like different meats, fruits, and veggies and will refuse everything but their kibble. (which makes senses, because hedgies do not eat much vegetation at all in the wild) High quality cat diets have worked very successfully for us in the US and as long as you are feeding high quality foods (which are the only foods we recommend here, and do not contain the usual harmful preservatives, sweeteners, dyes, etc.), you should not have to worry about whether your hedgie is getting the nutrition he needs.


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

so i can just feed him that stuff without the kibble? he loves it a lot and wouldnt want him to be sad after eating real food.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

SpiritWolves1 said:


> so i can just feed him that stuff without the kibble? he loves it a lot and wouldnt want him to be sad after eating real food.


Only after you have done the proper research and know how much protein is in that particular portion of meat/eggs. Then you have to find out what vitamins and minerals are in each portion of veggie and fruit. It can be dangerous if you feed improper ratios. The most obvious is the Ca ratio.

It's not that we want to discourage you from feeding fresh foods, but research must be done. Like forcing a cat on a vegetarian diet would make them go blind.(cats are obligate carnivores and must consume meat for taurine as it is essential. That's why all cat foods have taurine added). Research must be done. And until you have that research, feeding a good quality cat food is your most safest bet as it's been used for years.

So easiest way is to start with making 100g of food. Find out how much meat/egg makes 30%, then find out the fat, then the amount of vitamins. The remainder 40-50% of the food would be carbohydrates. Pet food companies don't list CHO in their nutritional values, but it's essentially the leftover percentage. Look at a bag of cat food and subtract everything you see from 100, that will give you the amount of carbs.


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## MLHollywood (Apr 22, 2012)

If you want to go that route, check out this website here: http://nutritiondata.self.com/

They have a pretty good analysis of many foods, and you can put your recipes together to see what the nutritional values are. It also gives you a nifty little caloric pyramid. I put in your recipe minus the ferret food and got around 2g Fiber, 30% protein, and 49% fat.

Now just to remind you, the nutrition facts label is based on human diets. Find out more about hedgie vitamin/mineral needs before looking at that too heavily. It's still a good tool for checking hedge treats (or meals, in this case).


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

im 14! i dont have time to be doing all of this, i just need quick snappy answers right now! Im doing exams right now and i REALLY just need answers. like YES or NO answers guys. IM really stressed, and im not even supposed to be talking to you guys anymore!


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

Finding a proper diet for your hedgie isn't a "yes or no" answer. Hedgehogs aren't that simple. If you have trouble trying to figure out what to feed him (which a LOT of knowledge and effort is needed to feed a non-kibble diet), go back to a decent dry kibble diet, even if it's high protein. The only time the protein will cause problems is if he already has renal issues, which I'm guessing he doesn't, and it might upset his stomach a little. If ferret food is all you have, feed ferret food while you try to find a way to feed something better.


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## coribelle (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm sorry, but a lot of this fresh food diet stuff isn't easy and we are all really trying our best to help you out here. No one wants to hurt anyone's feelings or step on anyone's toes.
The best route in terms of food -if you don't have the time to be making food from scratch- is a high quality cat food. That's the easiest way to go, and you don't have to worry about making your own food just right. 
There was a link previously posted that contains all kinds of great information on what to find, but the most important points are:
1. A protein content of around 28-35%. Any higher than that and things start getting risky with liver/kidney disease and whatnot. 
2. A fat content of around 10%. Some hedgehogs need a little more - maybe in the upper teens - and some need a little less, depending on their own activity levels.
3. Simple ingredients without a lot of fillers. It's best to find a food with the first few ingredients as meat, and to avoid food with a lot of corn as it is hard to digest and really just functions as filler. 
Some people like to provide a mix for their hogs, but I don't think that is totally imperative so long as they are getting the nutrition they need.

Hedgehogs aren't really animals that get snappy, yes or no answers to questions. They are somewhat complicated animals to own, though while the initial introductions seem complex, their upkeep is really quite simple once the ideas are grasped. In my opinion, they aren't really the easiest animal to own, and they certainly require more attention then many other "pocket pets" available. Hopefully things get easier for you once you figure out what is going on. 

On the other hand, I think it is really sad that you aren't supposed to be talking to the people on this forum about your hedgehog ): Many of the members here are some of the most knowledgeable and experienced hedgehog owners out there and have a lot to offer someone who is new to the hedgie world, and all of us want to do nothing but offer advice and information - even the newer members such as myself. I really hope that you are able to stay in contact with us so that we can share what we know with you.


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

the thing is about the not supposed to be on here thing is that im sneaking on. so i just need stuff thats not like paragraphs ^.^ thats what i meant by snappy yes and no stuff, sorry for the confusion. i will look for dry food but can i keep him on some of the natural stuff? i just would feel bad by feeding him real food then stick him on some processed stuff, thats all.


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

As has been mentioned already, hedgehog diets are complicated when you start talking about not feeding kibble.

From what I have read here, *not* from personal experience, feeding fruits and veggies on a regular (daily) basis is fine. Hard boiled eggs should be limited to once or twice a week. And as for feeding meat, I would go for cooked, unseasoned chicken or turkey as it is a leaner meat. For me personally, not knowing specific protein/fat percentages in something means I only feed that particular food once or twice a week as a sort of "side". I'm not an expert by any means, but if I were you, I'd be using the kibble as the staple of hedgie's diet with fruits & veggies daily/every other day and cooked meats every 3 or 4 days. You can also try meat flavored baby food.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

If you don't have time or don't want to figure out all the different nutrient requirements then your best bet is to go with a dry cat food as the main diet for your hedgehog. We can't tell you exactly which one to get because we don't know what you have available where you live. Other foods can be used as treats, in very small amounts.


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

okay well my mom and me did a bit more research, im aloud back on here lol  and we have re-read the bags of food and we found out that the 38% protein is per cup of food, which i only give him a teaspoon so the protein is more like 23-27 % so i will be feeding him a mix of these 2 brands










bought at well, walmart lol
and







the extrusion ferret food

they each have 38% protein but thats for 1 full cup. i will also be giving him the hamburger ( 1-1 1/2teaspoons ) carrot, broccoli, cauliflower, hard boiled egg whites/yoke ( 1/2 teaspoon) and i will be changing it up every few days. like instead of hamburger turkey or chicken, maybe some liver ( yuck!) what do you guys think?


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

The percent has nothing to do with the amount that's given. A food with 38% protein will have the same percentage whether it's a teaspoon, a tablespoon, a cup, or a pound.


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## Guest (May 8, 2012)

If you look at the list in the sticky section and just pick 2-3 off there your probably good.
both these foods have to high protien which is a problem no matter how much you feeding. The ferret food not good its made for ferrets who are strict carnivores.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Ferret food isn't good for hedgehogs and can cause health issues. You're not going to find good food for your hedgie at Walmart.


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

then please tell me what to do! im so sick of being told different things, im so **** confused and sick of crying over him. I dont want him to get sick, obviously but i live in the middle of nowhere. walmart is the best ive got. that food right now, is the best i have.

im still pretty sure, that its not 38% protein in 10 pieces, otherwise even a ferret would be dead.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Yes it does have 38% in every piece of ferret food. Ferrets need high protien so that's safe for them. Look for cat foods with less that 32% protien and less than 15% fat and if possible no corn in the first 2 ingredients.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Every single person, but one, has said you need protein at around 30%.

Anyways, I have gone and looked around at both petsmart and petco for the kind of brands they have that will be acceptable. I'm only listing some, not all that I have found. Feel free to keep browsing. Hopefully, this will give you a better understanding, since the previous list that was given went unnoticed.
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2750085&lmdn=Food+Center
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4191217&lmdn=Food+Center
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4072929&lmdn=Food+Center
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4397260&lmdn=Food+Center
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11495890&lmdn=Food+Center
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11888871&lmdn=Food+Center
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12113584&lmdn=Food+Center
And Petco :http://www.petco.com/Cat-Food.aspx?CoreCat=MM_CatSupplies_CatFood Have more or less the same brands, such as Wellness, Blue Buffalo, Halo, etc etc. Not all that I have listed are the most awesome quality, there's a bit of a mix. But all are within acceptable ranges, and all have decent ingredients, starting with meat.

Now... Don't have ANY petstore near you at all? Fine. Order online. No credit card? Or parents won't let you use theirs? Fine. Go to Walmart and buy a prepaid credit card. They have those nowadays, and they are very handy. Use that, order food online and have it shipped. Left over funds on the card? Buy a few songs from iTunes or something similar. 
If not the Walmart route, most banks also have prepaid cards that you can put in exact amounts. Find out exactly how much it will be to ship food to your house, and put that exact amount onto the card. Done and simple. No more worrying. In this day and age, even if you can't physically go somewhere, it can be delivered. ^_^

Good luck.


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## jkwan (Apr 23, 2012)

Paypal can also be used to directly debit a bank account or credit card, and is guaranteed secure  Also, I've found a lot of hedgie breeders are willing to sell their mix, you could see if they have a autoship or scheduled shipping option...that's what I plan to do, so I don't have to deal with the math of figuring out the perfect ratios/brands of cat food. There are many breeders here on HHC who's mixes I would trust.


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

i live in saskatchewan, we dont have many pet stores. so im asking my boss at the gas station i work at to order " Blue Buffalo all natural weight control chicken and brown rice" it has 28% which is much much better, plus i get a great discount on it. 

i did see the other list, but again, i dont have anywhere to buy it, unless i get it shipped which around here, you can even guarantee that she chick will actually get it too you ( she isnt very bright, she has a brain problem and looses a lot of stuff) so im not sure what to feed him untill i get the food in, or buy more food. the store i work at sells cat food and its good on protein but has chicken by-product meal as the first ingredient, so its still on the shelf.

what do you think i should feed him untill i get new stuff?? i need an answer before i give him supper. in about 3 hours.


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## jkwan (Apr 23, 2012)

I also live in SK, if you are in a smaller town you may have to just buy bigger bags of food when you visit the city, or order online or by phone.


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## SpiritWolves1 (Apr 5, 2012)

ya my boss is ordering me a whole case of it, it should be in hopefully sometime next week, but she is really sick lately so it could be a while untill she actually orders it.


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