# Change in ingredients



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Holly has 3 foods for this reason. Unfortunately they have changed two of these foods !!

One now has loads of potato!! AND tomato powder as well as a few more herbs
The ingredients are now as follows
Duck 37% (Duck meat meal, Duck fat, Duck gravy), Sweet Potato (30%), Potato (16%), Pea Starch (4%), Linseed (3%), Alfalfa (2%), Beet Pulp (2%), Rapeseed Oil (1%), Yeasts, Carrot (1%), Minerals, Tomato Powder (0.5%), Seaweed Meal (0.5%), Herbs (Marjoram 167 mg/kg, Oregano 167mg/kg, Sage 167 mg/kg, Parsley 167 mg/kg, Rosemary 167 mg/kg), Yucca (200 mg/kg), Cranberry (100 mg/kg), Marigold (50 mg/kg
Analytical Constituents: Protein 27%, Crude Fibres 3%, Crude Oils and Fats 10%, Crude Ash 9%, Moisture 8%.

Do you think that it is too starchy now? Holly gains weight easily, and I like the fat but the starch from the potato might be too much and then the fat isnt important. As this makes up the most of the biscuit given and eaten, I'm a bit unsure now.

The other food ingredients is now as follows the lamb has reduced, they added grape pomace, and citrus pulp, (The tomato pomace was there but I was told as I onlt use 1g of this food it wouldnt matter) 
lamb meal (11%), brown rice (11%), brewers' rice (11%), wheat, maize, maize gluten meal, barley, oats, animal fat, digest, soybean meal, soybean oil, flaxseed, minerals, tomato pomace, citrus pulp, grape pomace, spinach powder, vitamins, taurine, trace elements and beta-carotene. With a natural antioxidant (mixed tocopherols).
Analytical Constituents: Protein 22.9%, Crude Fibres 1.7%, Crude Oils and Fats 14.5%, Crude Ash 5.1%, Moisture 0%.

Anyway because of the grape pomace and citrus pulp do and the fact it now has less lamb, I'm thinking it may be better to change it now? It was recommended to me by other hedgehog owners and I was never totally convinced but now its so much worse! So would you agree this should be changed too? 
The fat is really high which is another reason it was only ever used as 1g of the mix. 

I have a few I've looked at, to change the duck, but I'll run that by here to make sure theres no ingredients that I missed that may be dangerous.


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## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

I would still try the first dry diet and see how holly reacts. Each hog can metabolize different ingredients slightly differently, and holly may be able to digest the higher potato. While it is a bit more starchy, it’s at least a natural starch and there’s plenty of more beneficial ingredients to offset that. 

The second diet doesn’t look too nutritious. I see a lot of starches and fillers as some of the main ingredients, including brewers rice which is a processed rice by product. Yuck! Also, there are a lot of acidic ingredients that have been added, and the grape can become toxic if given in large quantities. I would suggest finding a new diet to replace the second. 

I don’t think the tomato powder in the first should be a big deal. It’s a pretty insignificant ingredient and the fact that it’s a powder will automatically reduce some of the acidity.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Yea true. My main worry in the first one was it might be a bit to starchy now, I think I'll still look for another option of the duck incase I do need to change it, but with what you said I think I'll just get some more of the current one see how she goes.

I was never keen on using the lamb one to be fair, I was struggling to find one, I only give her 1g because its not very good in the ingredients or fat. But now its got even worse I'm definitely going to change it!! Loads of research to find a replacement!!


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Tomato is no big deal when used in pet food; so the inclusion of it wouldn't deter me in the slightest. _However_, there are a couple other problems with this food that would persuade me, personally, to change it if it were me;

Brewers rice is literally milled rice kernels; it offers very little, if any, nutrition and is used solely to 'bulk up' product. The fact that it is used in conjunction to brown rice also, means that at least 22% of that food is just rice - it is *double* the amount of rice as it is lamb. Additionally, with the inclusion of maize, maize gluten meal, barley, oats soybeans, this food is a largely composed of straight up filler ingredients; I dont think it'd be out of reach at all to assume that it is likely at a minimum 60-70% grain based, which is really not good for a hedgehog at all. and with the inclusion of animal fat (unspecified, thus absolutely no quality control whatsoever - that animal could have been sourced from anywhere)... eh, its an extremely poor quality food. I dont know who recommended it and why, but I wouldn't feed this to my hog at all - and certainly not if i only needed 1g of it, because there are so many higher quality options out there.

There a couple studies on the feeding of grape pomace to dogs that show it has no ill effect on renal health. Nevertheless; the food has way more issues, IMO, that are bigger than its inclusion of citrus & grape pomace. I'd 100% change it. I would keep the first food, get rid of the second. Perhaps look into adding a kibble with a much higher meat content too; like, 60% at least. Her diet is heavily veg/grain based, and I'd wonder if that's also contributing to her weight gain.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

To be honest I was never fully convinced but when I first got it I was still trying to get my head around things
I was going to look at changing it before they changed the ingredients and then life got hectic and I forgot to do so. But I'll be looking tonight

The other food she has is
Dried chicken and turkey (43% incl. 26% chicken), maize, sorghum millet meal, dried beet powder (4.6%), powdered cellulose (4.6%), fresh chicken (4.1%), pork fat, chicken stock, fructooligosaccharide (0.69%), potassium chloride, fish oil, brewer’s yeast.
Analytical constituents: protein 36.5% fat 12.0% fibre 6.1% ash 7.3% calcium 1.4% phosphorus 1.1% magnesium 0.093% omega-3 fats 0.27% omega-6 fats 2.4% taurine2000.0 mg/kg

This is the food I first swapped her to from one that made up all of animal derivatives and vegetable derivatives.
The pork fat is really low so I've never really been worried about it and she's done okay with the food.

Her weight gain came before this food was added, by another recommendation when I was still learning the food was good but it was 20% fat! And the other 2 (this one I just mentioned and the first from my first post) couldn't bring it down enough even though I was told it would! I just couldn't find a way that it was possible. In less than a month she gained 100g pretty fast. Without the crap quality food.

She's only been on this crap one at no more than 3g for the last month and that was because I was struggling to find another decent one in time.
But will be looking later when I get home


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Food choices can be pretty overwhelming - I think we've all been there, more times than once! 

My concern is that none of the foods in her diet have a particularly high meat content; they're all less than 50%; most are closer to 40% (or less) which isn't a very appropriate diet for a hedgehog - and i'd wonder if this a contributing factor to her weight gain because with or without the lowest quality food, the meat content of her kibble is on the lower side to what we'd generally consider acceptable.

The minimum I've seen recommended is 60% meat content - and that's a minimum, so it'd ideally be higher than this. I would genuinely wonder if the 20% fat was the cause for her weight gain - or whether it was actually that her diet is very, very high in carbs for an animal who doesn't naturally consume much of them. 

^ We obviously can't say for sure what caused her weight gain; or whether it was the fat content, or a combination of factors - the above is all just possibilities. But if she is still struggling with her weight even when her eating is controlled, I would honesty look into getting her on a diet with higher meat content and see if that helps in any way.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I've tried finding higher meat content foods, but there are none around apart from that 20% fat food and I dont want to do just that one food.

I give her steamed meat 2 times a week (low fat) and meat and veg (veg being very little and not starchy veg) so she is getting more proper meat than she is eating the biscuit.

I give her 12g total, 6g duck 5g chicken and 1g lamb of the biscuit. She eats a mix of it depending on her mood and eats 4-6g of biscuit in total. 

Then I give her 5-6g steam meat of various duck, chicken, turkey lamb twice a week and 5g (3g meat and 2g veg) meat and veg once a week.

Plus she has her 14 insects per night

I know her biscuits are not the best but its really hard to find 3 with a high meat content at low fat.
But its far better than a lot of diets where the hedgehogs are eating worse (lower meat and even more fillers) and then getting no extra meat be it raw or cooked and less bugs than Holly.

I'm trying but all the foods I get referred back to are actually more like the lamb than duck and chicken one.
I have looked at every recommended brand I can find and get no where.

Holly mainly eats the duck because its duck. So a duck one is really ideal for her.

Her food before was worse. It was just made up of derivatives and fillers with 35% protein and 20% fat. Thats what she came to me on. So her weight was already pretty high for her age when I got her. 

I've spent the last month and a bit and she's finally back to 600g can fully ball up which I honestly consider an achievement.

Now its keeping it down at that weight and I dont think increasing the fat intake will help to do that.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

When I asked for a low fat duck food from people who are supposed to be good the recommended this

With Duck & Green pea: Dried peas (43%), pea protein, animal fat, duck meat (4%), trace elements, cellulose, soybean oil, minerals, fish oil, pea bran meal, digest, vitamins, trace elements and beta-carotene. With a natural antioxidant (mixed tocopherols)
Protein 32.4%, Fat 23.3%, Crude fibre 6.3%, Carbohydrate (NFE) 32.5%, Calcium 0.98%, Phospohorus 0.75%, Sodium 0.25%, Potassium 0.86%, Magnesium 0.102%, Taurine 0.50%, Vitamin C 111 ppm, Vitamin E 792 IU/kg, Omega-3-fatty acids 0.95%, Omega-6-fatty acids 3.69%, Crude Ash 5.6%, Beta-carotene 2.42 ppm, Vitamin A 6272 IU/kg, Vitamin D 629 IU/kg

Which I think is worse than what she has already.

I was then recommended this
Duck (30%) (Duck Meat Meal, Duck Gravy), Brown Rice (28%), Barley (20%), Beet Pulp (7%), Rapeseed Oil (6%), Whole Linseed (4%), Alfalfa (3%), Minerals, Seaweed (0.5%), Chicory (0.05%), Extract of Yucca Schidigera (0.02%), Mairgold Meal (0.005%), Rosemary Oil Extract (0.0005%).
Analytical Constituents: Protein 24%, Crude Fibre 4.5%, Oils & Fats 12%, Crude Ash 9%, Calcium 1.55%, Phosphorus 0.82%, Omega-6 1.6%, Omega-3 1.32%.

Which is again no better apart from it uses rice and barley, not potato

And after that I was suggested this one
Duck Meal (36%), Brown Rice (26%), Barley, Duck Fat, Pea Protein, Digest, Minerals, Yeasts, Linseed (1%), Lucerne, Seaweed Meal (0.5%), Prebiotic-Mannan Oligosaccharides, Cranberry Powder Extract(500mg/kg), Rosemary Extract (300mg/kg), Yucca Extract(100mg/kg).*
Protein 30%; Crude Fibres 2.5%; Crude Oils and Fats 18%; Crude Ash 9%. Moisture 7%.

Oh and then this
Rice, dehydrated duck meat, vegetable fibres, hydrolysed poultry proteins, animal fats, rice gluten, minerals, fish oil, soya oil, marigold extract (source of lutein).
Analytical constituents: protein 27.0% fat 11.0% fibre6.1% carbohydrates 40.8% calcium1.61% phosphorus 1.1 % magnesium0.07% dietary fiber 10.1% chloride 1.38% potassium0.8% sodium 0.8% omega-3 fats 0.79% omega-6 fats 2.45% calories that can be burned 349.0kcal DHA fatty acid 0.35mg


So which one of those is any better then?? Because non of those are any higher in meat content or lower in much else. And some of them are too high in fat ideally I dont want a replacement going over 12% fat because I can work with that as its still low.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

As for the lamb no one had any better than the one I have now.

And chicken I didnt ask, but I haven't found one thats low fat and high meat with little fillers.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Totally up to you and if you're seeing progress, by all means do what you believe will work for her!

My personal opinion is that if she was fed a more species appropriate diet (that is; less carbs, more meat) that a 20% fat diet would still see her progress. 1-2 teaspoons (probably closer to 1 teaspoon/6g-ish, as she doesn't sound like a very active hog?) of said 20% fat diet and I honestly believe that you'd still see weight loss and overall better management of her weight - but again; your hog, so your choice.

Again personally speaking; but I just believe that the issue isnt necessarily 20% fat; it's that her food is too rich in carbs, and she's getting too much for her activity level. Eating fat doesn't necessarily = getting fat. Too many carbs however; and you'll struggling managing her weight. The issue is that hedgehogs dont naturally consume many carbs so what's going to happen is that she's going to store all that excess carbs as fat. I would chose a 20% fat diet any day over a diet that is predominately veg/grain based - but that's me.

edit; i didnt refresh the page, so I didn't see your other posts;

Personally speaking (and im using this term a lot because i want to stress that my post is purely IMO haha); I wouldn't bother with the recommendations given to you. Like, the 1st one is 48% rice and barley and only 30% duck. The 2nd one isnt the worst, but it also isnt great - can you order online? If so (or even if you could find then locally!), I would recommend that instead of that food, use something like Canagan or AATU.

The last one is trash, and I wouldn't bother with it at all. The ones I linked are higher than you want with fat... but again, i want to stress that fat doesn't necessarily = weight gain. I genuinely believe the issue with Holly is that her diet is far too high in carbs.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

It could be a mix of both. Because I tried one with just the chicken she has and this
Dry Chicken Meal (47%), Dry Duck Meal (21%) Chicken Mince (16%), Potato, Beet Pulp, Brewer's Yeast, Chicken Gravy (1%), Salmon Oil, Vitamins and Minerals, Dried Egg, Cellulose Plant Fibre (0.03%), Sodium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Seaweed/Kelp, Cranberry, DL-Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Yucca Extract, Citrus Extract, Rosemary Extract
Protein 38%, Crude Oils & Fats 20%, Crude Fibre 2.1%, Crude Ash 11.3%, Omega 6 3.8%, Omega 3 0.8%, Calcium 2.8%, Phosphorus 1.8%, Taurine 2,000 mg/kg

But her weight still went up really high. And then taking it out back to just the chicken her weight just stayed the same which is when I added the duck one and it balanced okay ish. But her still went up a lot.
Since she's been eating less biscuit totally with 4 a days with something more than just biscuit her weight has done better.

My fear is having it too high in carbs or too high in fat or a mix of both but its seeming to be impossible.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I can find this 
85% Duck: (45% Duck, 40% Dehydrated Duck), Sweet Potato, Chickpeas, Peas, Lucerne, Tapioca, Apple, Cranberry, Pear, Blueberry, Mulberry, Orange, Bilberry, Cowberry, Carrot, Tomato, Chicory, Peppermint, Parsley, Cinnamon, Marigold, Stinging Nettle, Camomile, Rosehip, Yucca, Spirulina, Seaweed, Aniseed, Fenugreek, Oregano, Sage, Marjoram, Thyme.*
Crude Protein 34%, Fat Content 20%, Crude Fibre 2.5%, Inorganic Matter 8.9%, Moisture 8%, Omega 6 2.9%, Omega 3 0.7% .*
Nutritional Additives (per kg): Taurine 1500mg, L-Carnitine 200mg

But the orange puts me off because orange is pretty high in citrus, and the fat is really high so I'd need to find one lower to bring it down a bit because 20% is over what they recommended anyway.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

This one does have better ingredients
Freshly Prepared Deboned Duck (44%), Dried Duck (10%), Sweet Potato, Potato, Freshly Prepared Deboned Venison (7%), Dried Herring (6%), Dried Rabbit (4%), Pea Protein, Dried Egg (2%), Chicken Gravy (1%), Alfalfa, Salmon Oil (1%), Potato Protein, Minerals, Vitamins, Cranberry, Mannanoligosaccharides, Fructooligosaccharides, Apple, Carrot, Spinach, Seaweed, Camomile, Peppermint, Marigold, Aniseed & Fenugreek.
Crude Protein 37.50%, Fat Content 15.00%, *Crude Fibres 3.00%, Crude Ash 11.00%, Moisture 7.00%, Omega 6 2.50%, Omega 3 1.6%, Calcium 2.10%, Phosphorus 1.10%

It would still be better with a lower fat and lower protein food though. Because Holly just generally puts weight on really easy regardless of the carbs or fat.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Orange as an ingredient in kibble is nothing to be fearful of; it's a great source of nutrients, and can be extremely beneficial to the immune system. Their pH is actually moderate, and comparable to that of apples - theres no reason to avoid them in cat food at all.

Those two foods you've listed are the ones I've linked prior, right? Theyre both very high quality foods, with the Canagan being lower in fat - but the AATU still suitable nonetheless, and it would be AATU that has a little one up on Canagan but thats beside the point haha. They have other recipes too if you're interested, I just linked their duck ones because you mentioned that's Hollys favourite. 

If she's gaining weight, there is something going wrong. A hedgehog doesn't just gain weight for no reason. And if she still gains weight on a low carb/high meat content diet, then she is being fed too much kibble for her energy requirements and that should be appropriately addressed. 

20% is considered the max for fat; but again, I would choose that any day over a diet high in carbs. But if you are more comfortable with lower fat, then I would go the Canagan route (paired with a lower protein food to bring it down a little, ofc) - lower in fat, and also low in carbs.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Yea they are the ones you linked, I just realised that now haha. 
She's not gaining weight now I just want to stable it and it hasn't been working
I knew her biscuits were not the best around, but I was losing hope when I chose them as they were the best we found at the time. And I was getting desperate to get her weight down

She is really picky too, so it was really hard especially not knowing many brands at the time.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Yeah, I think if you want better management/stability as far as her weight goes, as little grain as possible with a high meat content would be best. Even if it is 20% fat or close to it, I think it's at least worth a try to see if it'll help her in any way - certainly if the low fat/high carb isnt working, the higher fat/low carb is worth a shot IMO.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

What about any one of these?

Food A 
Turkey 26% (Fresh Turkey 16%, Turkey Meal 10%), Chicken 21% (Chicken Meal 16%, Dried Chicken 5%), Peas, Potato Protein, Chicken Fat 6%, Salmon Meal 5%, Dried Potatoes, Full-Fat Linseed 3%, Beet Pulp 2%, Cellulose, Salmon Oil, Dried Chicory Root 0.5%, Cranberries, Dried Kelp, Yucca Schidigera.
Protein 44%, Crude Fibres 5.5%, Crude Oils and Fats 16%, Crude Ash 9%, Moisture Not stated

Food B
Chicken 47% (Fresh Chicken 16%, Dried Chicken 16%, Chicken Meal 15%), Peas, Dried Potatoes, Turkey Meal 4%, Chicken Fat 4%, Beet Pulp 4%, Dried Chicken Protein 3%, Full-fat Linseed, Dried Chicory Root 0.5%, Glucosamine Hydrochloride 300 mg/kg, Chondroitin Sulfate 200 mg/kg, Cranberries, Dried Kelp, Yucca Schidigera.
Analytical Constituents: Protein 38%, Crude Fibres 4.5%, Crude Oils and Fats 13%, Crude Ash 8%, Moisture Not stated

Food C
Turkey 28%(Fresh Turkey 16%, Turkey Meal 12%), Chicken Meal 16%, Peas, Dried Potatoes, Dried Chicken Protein 5%, Potato Protein, Beet Pulp 4%, Chicken Fat 2%, Full Fat Linseed, Salmon Oil, Dried Chicory Root, Carrots, Apples, Broccoli, Spinach, Blueberries, Cranberries, Tomatoes, Yucca Schidigera, Yeast Extract (source of mannan oligosaccharides), Glucosamine Hydrochloride 100 mg/kg, Chondroitin Sulfate 100 mg/kg.
Analytical Constituents: Protein 33%, Crude Fibres 4.3%, Crude Oils and Fats 11%, Crude Ash 9.5%, Moisture Not stated

Instead of the lamb keeping the other two as I still have a lot of the other two left that I don't want to waste.
Because I brought more of the duck earlier when I was out after figuring out I could just keep it.
The fat I can work it out into the mix but its more the ingredients I want to know about. Doesn't seem to have that many carbohydrates either.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

The ingredients included are all fine, the meat content is fairly average too. At a glance, option 1 has close to 60% meat, option 2 is the same, and option 3 is at least 50%.

If you only gave me those options, I would pick either A or B (though I personally prefer higher meat, but thats me haha). Orijen also have some foods that may interest you; they have a fit & trim option, thats low carb and 15% fat.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I was looking more at A and B as well to be honest. Even thought C has lower fat I think A or B would be better.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Would one of these be any good

Food A
Chicken (43.6%) (Chicken Meal 26%, Fresh Chicken 12.6%, Chicken Gravy 3.6%, Chicken Fat 1.4%), Tapioca (18%), Maize Protein (13.5%), Beet Pulp, Pea Protein, Whole Egg Powder (4.5%), Brewers Yeast, Pea Fibre, Minerals, DHA-Algae (1.2%), Pre-biotic Mannanoligosaccharides (400mg/kg), Glucosamine (400mg/kg), Chondroitin (200mg/kg), Yucca Extract (200mg/kg), Cranberry Extract, Green Tea Extract, Pomegranate Extract, Rosemary Extract.
Protein 38%, Crude Fibres 5.5%, Crude Oils and Fats 10%, Crude Ash 7.5%, Moisture 10%.

Food B
Dried chicken (48%), dried lamb (20%), dried potato, ground chicken [no bones] (12%), beet pulp, chicken gravy, salmon oil, vitamins and minerals, dried egg, cellulose from plant fibres (0.03%), sodium chloride, calcium carbonate, kelp, cranberries, DL methionine, potassium chloride, yucca extract, lemon extract, rosemary extract.
protein 37.0% fat 17.0% fibre 2.5% ash 10.9% calcium 2.7g/kg phosphorus 1.6g/kg omega-3 fats 1.0g/kg omega-6 fats 3.3g/kg


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Food C
Fresh chicken(26%), potato (26%), chicken meat meal (22%), pea starch, egg powder, chicken digest, salmon oil, yeast extract, malt extract, pea fibre, chicken oil, minerals, prebiotic FOS, prebiotic MOS, cranberry extract, glucosamine, MSM, chondroitin, nucleotides.
Crude Protein 30%, Fat Content 11%, Crude Ash 7.5%, Crude Fibres 2.4%, Calcium 1.4%, Phosphorous 0.9%, Taurine 1000mg/kg, Omega-3 0.2%, Omega-6 1.8%.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

In order of better quality, I would list it as;

Food B, Food C, and last Food A. 

I would avoid anything with filler ingredients like maize, too. Personally speaking, I aim for around 70-80% animal ingredients minimum and as little potato as possible. So Food B would be my choice out of these lot. Its at least 80% meat, so we know the potato listed has to be less than 20% - which is an ideal food.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Is it actually possible to get one with high meat, little fillers and low fat. Because my problem with high fat is that Holly gains weight fast. So unless I feed her even less than she is getting now..

I was thinking of doing a mix of
These three foods for now 

Turkey 26% (Fresh Turkey 16%, Turkey Meal 10%), Chicken 21% (Chicken Meal 16%, Dried Chicken 5%), Peas, Potato Protein, Chicken Fat 6%, Salmon Meal 5%, Dried Potatoes, Full-Fat Linseed 3%, Beet Pulp 2%, Cellulose, Salmon Oil, Dried Chicory Root 0.5%, Cranberries, Dried Kelp, Yucca Schidigera.
Protein 44%, Crude Fibres 5.5%, Crude Oils and Fats 16%, Crude Ash 9%, Moisture Not stated

Duck 37% (Duck meat meal, Duck fat, Duck gravy), Sweet Potato (30%), Potato (16%), Pea Starch (4%), Linseed (3%), Alfalfa (2%), Beet Pulp (2%), Rapeseed Oil (1%), Yeasts, Carrot (1%), Minerals, Tomato Powder (0.5%), Seaweed Meal (0.5%), Herbs (Marjoram 167 mg/kg, Oregano 167mg/kg, Sage 167 mg/kg, Parsley 167 mg/kg, Rosemary 167 mg/kg), Yucca (200 mg/kg), Cranberry (100 mg/kg), Marigold (50 mg/kg
Protein 27%, Crude Fibres 3%, Crude Oils and Fats 10%, Crude Ash 9%, Moisture 8%.

Dried chicken and turkey (43% incl. 26% chicken), maize, sorghum millet meal, dried beet powder (4.6%), powdered cellulose (4.6%), fresh chicken (4.1%), pork fat, chicken stock, fructooligosaccharide (0.69%), potassium chloride, fish oil, brewer’s yeast.
protein 36.5% fat 12.0% fibre 6.1% ash 7.3% calcium 1.4% phosphorus 1.1% magnesium 0.093% omega-3 fats 0.27% omega-6 fats 2.4% taurine 2000.0mg/kg

Giving 6g duck 2g turkey 3g chicken at 32.7% protein and 11.6% fat
It seems okay as a mix?
And then in a few months change the chicken one for a better one because I know its not great but its not the worst thing ever.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Alright can I have a break down of these ones please 

Food A
Lamb (32%); Sweet Potato (21%); Peas (3%) Potato; Lentils; Linseed; Pea Protein 3%; Potato Protein; Lamb Gravy; Lamb Fat; Pea Fibre; Calcium Carbonate; Vitamins & Chelated Minerals; Fructooligosaccharides 2.5g/kg; Mannan Oligosaccharides 2.5g/kg; Apples; Carrots; Spinach; Cranberries; Glucosamine 175mg/kg; Methylsulphonylmethane 175mg/kg; Chondroitin Sulphate 125mg/kg; Parsley 100mg/kg
Crude Protein 22% Crude Fats & Oils 8.5% Crude Fibres 3% Crude Ash 5% Omega 6 1.5% Omega 3 1.1% Calcium 1.1% Phosphorus 1%

Food B
Chicken (31%); Duck (8%); Sweet Potatoes (30%) Chicken Liver 3%; Peas 6.5%; Lentils; Pea Protein; Flaxseeds; Eggs; Chicken Gravy; Calcium Carbonate; Salmon Oil; Fructooligosaccharides 2.5g/kg; Mannan Oligosaccharides 2.5g/kg; Apples; Vitamins & Chelated Minerals; Carrots; Spinach; Cranberries; Glucosamine 175mg/kg; Methylsulphonylmethane 175mg/kg; Chondroitin Sulphate 125mg/kg
Crude Protein 22% Crude Oil & Fats 11% Crude Ash 6% Crude Fibres 3% Omega 6 1.6% Omega 3 1.4% Calcium 1.2% Phosphorus 1%

Food C
Venison (13%); Duck (13%); Salmon (9%)
Potatoes; Pea Protein; Lentils; Linseed; Peas; Dried Egg; Salmon Oil; Lamb Gravy; Nutritional Yeast; Vitamins & Chelated Minerals; Fructooligosaccharides 2.5g/kg; Mannan Oligosaccharides 2.5g/kg; Apples; Carrots; Blackberries; Cranberries; Spinach; Glucosamine 175mg/kg; Methylsulfonylmethane 175mg/kg; Chondroitin Sulphate 125mg/kg
Crude Protein 24% Crude Oil & Fats 11% Crude Ash 6.5% Crude Fibres 2.5% Omega 6 2.2% Omega 3 2.3% Calcium 1.5% Phosphorus 1%

Food D
Chicken (26%); Rice (19%); Oats (17%)
Organic Barley; Organic Rice Protein; Organic Fishmeal; Organic Brown Lentils; Organic Gravy; Organic Flaxseed; Organic Sunflower Seeds; Organic Sunflower Oil; Vitamins & Chelated Minerals; Organic Chicken Oil; Organic Carrots; Organic Spinach; Fructooligosaccharides 2.5g/kg; Mannan Oligosaccharides 2.5g/kg; Organic Peas; Organic Parsnip; Organic Pumpkin; Organic Broccoli; Organic Honey; Glucosamine 175mg/kg; Methylsulphonylmethane 175mg/kg; Chondroitin Sulphate 125mg/kg
Crude Protein 22% Crude Fats & Oils 8% Crude Fibres 3% Crude Ash 3% Omega 6 1.6% Omega 3 1.4% Calcium 1.2% Phosphorus 1%

Food E
Chicken (67%); Potato (23%); Salmon Oil (0.5%) Dried Egg 4%; Chicken Gravy 1%; Plant Fibre; Salmon Gravy; Linseed; Vitamins and Chelated Minerals; Fructooligosaccarides 2.5g/kg; Cheese; Seaweed; Carrot; Bilberry; Cranberry; Parsley; Aniseed; Fenugreek
Crude Protein 30% Crude Oil & Fats 15% Crude Ash 6% Crude Fibres 2.5% Moisture 7% Omega 6: 2.2% Omega 3: 0.6% Calcium 0.9% Phosphorus 0.6% Taurine 90 mg/kg


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Many cat foods that are low fat often suffer ingredient wise; because to get the fat low, they (often) use grain or bulk up on potatoes and reduce the amount of animal protein used. So finding a cat food that is both high in meat content and less than 15% fat is going to be near-impossible. thats why I mentioned in my previous posts that I wouldn't become overly obsessed with just looking at fat content alone because high carb diets (which low fat cat foods often are) can arguably cause you more issues with weight gain than a diet that is 15-20% fat. Excess carbs are stored as fat. And if you feed an animal that does not naturally consume so much carbs a diet that is predominately veg based.... you're going to experience all the problems you're currently experiencing; a total rodeo controlling their weight. 

If I look at her current diet plan; all of her foods are below 60% meat. One (duck) is only 37% meat with the rest being predominately carbs, and its making up the bulk of her kibble. 

The other foods listed are difficult to fully assess, because theyre not listing percentages of many of their ingredients so we can only go by what theyve given us. Food A has at least 32% animal products, B has at least 42%, C has at least 35%, D has at least 26%, and E has at least 67%.

Out of these choices, E is the best. 23% potato, but its miles better than the rest.

For a hedgehog who is predominately a meat eater, we want as much animal product as possible. Again, bare minimum 60% - but ideally within the 70-80% range. These foods will typically have a minimum 15% fat content.

She also could easily be eating too much food, in addition to having a diet too high in carbs. If she's not an active hedgehog, closer to 1 teaspoon of kibble (6-8g~) should be enough for her.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

She only eats 6g of biscuit. Rarely 7g and the last 4g
And that's by choice. The most food she eats is 14g and that's more steamed meat or egg than biscuit. The most biscuit she has eaten since only giving her 12g biscuit is 9g once and 8g once after first changing and few times 7g majority she's stayed to eating 6g of the biscuit and more times its less down to 3g of biscuit and not past 7g after those two times 

I am looking at others with more meat. But need at least with lower protein to balance the protein. So one is going to have to be more carbs than meat. To balance the protein.

The higher the meat the more protein and I dont want over do protein because shes also getting it from extra steamed meat and insects.

I want to keep the fat dow but I will agree I'm looking a lot at fat and maybe should try it a bit higher. I still dont want the overall fat much past 15% because shes not the the most active of hedgehogs but she's also not lazy.

My main thing I was unsure of with E was the cheese in the food because they can't have cheese (last time I checked anyway)


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Okay, so if she's still struggling with maintaining a healthy weight even on a low fat diet and with ~6g of kibble, I would start looking at the carbs - and her current diet is very carb heavy, and thats likely the culprit here.

I honestly didn't look through every single ingredient in the recent foods you posted; i was assessing them based on the first couple ingredients, and admittedly rush posted. But the main thing when you're choosing a food is that its a minimum of 60% animal products (again, preferably around 70-80%) and I would (personally) aim for <20% potato. There's multiple brands that would meet these requirements. AATU, Meowing Heads, Applaws, Acana, Orijen, AATU, Carnilove and Canagan to name a few. 

To drop the protein, its okay if you need to perhaps add a lower quality food - I use James Wellbeloved and while I'd use it in a mix, i'd never feed it to her as her sole kibble. Whats important is that the bulk of her diet is made up of higher meat content kibbles.

I wouldn't worry about extras. The moisture in cooked meat will flush out excess protein. I never calculate the DM for Coco's wet or raw food; because again, its high in moisture so it doesn't concern me. Kibble though, I know its not recommended to go over 35%.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I was looking at the turkey small breed dog food from canagan to add as I actually quite like that. And being small breed the biscuit is pretty small
I didnt see a cat dry food turkey one.

It really helps knowing brands! Which I don't and no one I know, knows any good brands
And when I first started looking I it was sorta "anything is better than the current crap she is on" which as just made up of animals derivatives and vegetables derivatives with about 14% chicken out of about 30% animal derivatives. With a 20% fat and 35% protein.
The chicken one she has as well as the duck one is BY FAR better than that!!
But now more about the nutrition brought her weight back to 600g after a month and bit of work. I need to stable it but I'll admit her food needs to be less carbohydrates anyway.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

been there, done that haha. Coco came to me on Whiskas & some off-brand Aldi crap - and was a total nightmare to transition off it. When I first tried her on Applaws she wouldn't eat it (but loves it now, hedgehog logic) and would only eat her James well beloved - but i was so desperate to get her onto a kibble with named ingredients that I just let her have it. So I can relate, 110% haha.

I also found another option, and I think it is like the unicorn of cat food. Vets kitchen. It has a high meat content (80%) and is only 13% fat. Could be an option for you if you want to include it in your mix; as it is 40% protein.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I'm having a play with different ways to use the foods, without the fat going to far 13% only because I don't think too high a fat will help, but obviously nor does too many carbohydrates. I don't want to go back on myself and undo the progress we have. Although she only eats such a small amounts its better to find her better quality.

I'll have a look at this one and see if it works. So far I've looked at 4 new foods. Holly helped me last night, I read it to her and every time she licked her lips haha

Theres one a that I'm only really looking at as an option as its 22% protein and 8.5% fat. The ingredients aren't too bad but its an option to use a small bit to bring the protein and fat to a reasonable percentage.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so I was thinking of these foods in the pictures:
1 - Carnilove duck&Turkey
2 - Vets Kitchen Chicken
3 - Canagan Turkey
4 - AATU Duck
5 - Wainwright Duck

I have a few options for a final mix. I need to do a plan for changing it but I want to determine the mix I'm making first. 

One
Canagan 1g AATU 1g Wainwright 5g Vets Kitchen 3g Carnilove 1g
Comes to a total 11g with 32.6% protein and 13.1% fat

Two
Canagan 1g AATU 1g Wainwright 5g Vets Kitchen 4g Carnilove 1g
Comes to a total 12g with 33.3% protein and 13.1% fat

Three
Wainwright 4g Vets Kitchen 3g Carnilove 3g giving 10g total with 33.9% protein and 13.3% Fat

Four
Canagan 2g Wainwright 4g Vets Kitchen 3g Carnilove 1g giving a total 10g with 33.1% protein 13.1% fat

Five
AATU 1g wainwright 4g Vets Kitchen 4g Carnilove 1g giving a total 10g with 33.9% protein and 13% Fat

Six
AATU 2g Wainwright 4g Vets Kitchen 4g giving a total 10g with 33.6% Protein 13.2% Fat

Seven
Wainwright 5g Vets Kitchen 5g Carnilove 2g giving a total 12g with 34.1% protein and 12.6% Fat

Eight
Wainwright 4g Vets Kitchen 5g Carnilove 3g giving a total 12g with 34.9% protein and 13.3% Fat

Nine
Canagan 2g wainwright 4g Vets kitchen 3 Carnilove 1g giving 10g 33.1% protein and 13.1% fat

Ten
Canagan 3g wainwright 4g vets kitchen 4g giving 11g with 33.4% protein and 13% fat


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Another food is Lily's kitchen Lamb for dogs ! Grain free (see photo for nutrition

With these options

Eleven
Canagan 2g Lily's Kitchen 3g Vets Kitchen 4g Carnilove 2g Giving a total 11g with 33.3% protein and 13.4% fat

Twelve
Lily's Kitchen 3g Vets Kitchen 4g Carnilove 3g Giving a total 10g with 33.7% protein and 13.2% Fat

Thirteen
AATU 2g Lily's Kitchen 3g Vets Kitchen 5g Giving a total 10g with 33.4% protein and 13.1% Fat

Fourteen
Canagan 1g AATU 2g Lily's Kitchen 2g Wainwright 2g Vets Kitchen 4g Giving a total 11g with 32.6% Protein and 13.3% Fat


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so I'm debating on these 3

1
4g wainwright, 5g Vets Kitchen, 2g Carnilove giving 11g at 34.7% protein 12.8% fat and 63% animal protein

2
3g wainwright, 4g Vets Kitchen, 3g Carnilove giving 10g at 35.2% protein and 13.6% fat and 64% animal protein

3
3g wainwright, 5g Vets Kitchen, 2g Carnilove giving 10g at 35.5% protein and 13.1% fat and 65% animal protein.

My main thing with the last one is I'm not sure if the protein is to high? 

The 2nd one I'm not sure the extra 1% animal protein is worth the high jump protein and fat but maybe that's just me?

Just need another opinion on the options I've come up with.

Considering her current mix is 11.2% fat I think I'm doing good at ignoring the fat more BUT I still don't want it majorly high considering I just spent 2 months getting her weight from 700g to 600g and I don't want to feel like I'm undoing that. If that makes sense??


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

A difference of 1-2% animal protein is pretty minuscule, so I wouldn't get too caught up over it. Any of those three options would be suitable - just choose which one you believe would work best for you. 

35% protein is fine; it's on the higher end, but still within a safe range.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

To be honest I wasnt getting caught up over it. I picked the 3 highest in meat options.
I would have just gone with the 3rd one the only thing I wasnt sure about was the protein but if that's fine then I can make a plan to work towards this mix.


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