# Diet



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so I was told I cant give Holly cooked meat or veg more than twice a week. But when she has it she balances her diet more by herself

Like I give her 5g of cooked chicken and veg she'll eat all of it and she'll eat 5g biscuit so total 10g, plus her 14 insects - which are low fat

So whys is it so bad to offer more different things like cooked meat&veg every day or ever other day, if it seems to balance out how much she eats better ??
I understand she still needs her biscuit, but she will only eat what shes hungry for, no more or less. I understand the whole needing biscuit, but if she still eats some biscuit would it really be to bad ?? 
I'd steam the meat and veg or boil it like you would for babies to keep as many nutrients as possible to so it would be far healthier. I also wouldn't use any fatty bits of meats. It just seems to help her balance out what she's actually eating and how much of it too - I'd monitor it closely of course to make it work.

If it is really bad then I'd like reasons for it please and thank you.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so I had some time today and was reading some of the stickies 
And after reading, I decided that steaming some meats and veg for her to supplement her diet will work I'm still unsure if I give it every day or every other day or a bit less. So I'm going to do more research into the safe vegies to balance it a bit. So any advice anyone has or any links that may help would be very helpful.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Hedgehog diets are a debated topic haha; I've only had my girl since November, and I literally couldn't tell you how many times I've changed her diet plan because I'm constantly researching more and altering it to suit _her_ needs best. Personally speaking, I think an awful lot of diet advice in the hedgehog community (with regards to kibble being the bulk of the diet and everything else like insects, meat, and fruit/veg as 'treats') is insanely outdated and based on little fact.

There is literally no reason for why meat should be a treat; zero, zilch, nada. You can absolutely feed it daily, as part of a balanced (keyword; *balanced*) diet with absolutely zero problems - your hedgehog would likely love you for it. Personally speaking, my hog gets meat (not including her kibble) at least 5 days of the week. Be it in the form of her wet cat food, raw meat, or cooked meat that I use to hand feed her.

With regard to veggies; Hedgehogs don't typically consume large quantities of plant matter, and the vast majority of plant matter found in their stomachs in the wild was largely due to their insect consumption. Insects consumed plant matter, and the hedgehogs consume the insects who had eaten the plant matter. They don't digest plant matter very well at all, so feeding it daily isnt necessary or even really recommended. Once you gut-load your insects, veg should otherwise be offered in small quantities - and most hogs will totally turn their noses up at it. I really like this site, if you haven't found it already! 

In anyway; I view Coco's kibbles as her 'multivitamins'. Once she's eating _some_, and so long the rest of her diet is varied and balanced, I'm not worried.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

To be fair Holly loves eating cooked veg - She's not a very normal hedgehog to be fair !!
I did think that the veg would be a bit much every day, but then I read conflicting things elsewhere so I wasn't too sure anymore but I guess I was right with what I first thought, I'll just stick to feeding her some cooked veg every other week or less, And do different cooked meat most days, with wet food once or twice a week (I can give her some of my dogs wet food as its hedgehog safe) 
And obviously her insects which I gut load and freeze to hide about her cage. 

To be honest I like the idea of keeping the biscuit as a multivitamin type thing. 
If I give her 5g meat and her biscuit she eats 5g meat 5g biscuit so total 10g plus 14 insects
If I do 6g meat and her biscuit she eats 6g meat, 4g biscuit still only eating 10g plus her 14 insects.
She seems to regulate how much she's eating a bit better this way which is why I thought it'd be a good idea to try.
She defiantly would love me a whole lot more if I gave her cooked meat every day !!

I was also thinking of doing boiled egg or scrambled egg (without milk) every other week and then maybe a day old mouse once a month as I heard it can help with keeping teeth clean.

I never found that site so I'll have a look through it.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

If your hog genuinely enjoys veg, you can offer it weekly or a couple times a week if you wish. It's not going to kill them or even necessarily do them harm; they just don't have the ability to properly digest it, so it's not _as_ beneficial as something like an insect. Still; you can offer it to them in small quantities. They are insectivores by nature, so dont naturally feast on a whole lot of plant matter - and I don't believe it's typical to have a hog who willing eats it haha - however, with all that said, if Holly genuinely enjoys it it makes a perfectly fine snack... Although I am a little jealous haha; It takes a wholeeeee lot of bribing to convince Coco to try pretty much any fruit or veggie. Whenever I do her eggs scrambled, I sometimes make them into a type of omelette and mix some shredded carrot and spinach into them - to hide them so she can't spit them out. 

But yeah, honestly I prefer viewing kibbles as a multivitamin/supplement to a balanced diet of meat, insects, and small amount of fresh fruit/veg. Eggs make perfectly fine additions to their diet too; I usually feed some to Coco once a week. They really do seem to thrive more, and do overall better on a diet where kibbles are viewed as a supplement vs the bulk of their feed - at least, I've certainly seen a difference in Coco in terms of her really enjoying her meals (I get happy squeaks at every meal time!), and just overall better weight management.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Holly actually loves her veg, its funny because I read all about how hogs just turn their noses up at it, but then Holly doesnt, she loves her fruit and veg.
I found she prefers her apples cooked a bit to make them just a little softer, also when I cook them I leave a little bite to the veg, not so they are very hard but not like really soft like mushy, sorta on the verge so its got a very small bite (like how I like my veg haha) and I cut it into small cubes or rectangles. With broccoli and cauliflower, I give her little florets but again I do it so theres still a little bit if bite to them.
And sweetcorn she get is in the little corn bits, I'll cook it still on the cob then take them all off, but that one is sorta hard to make got mushy anyway, and its the one I read about hogs actually like.
So far Holly has snatched up carrots, sweetcorn, broccoli, cauliflower, sweet potato, apples, pears, watermelon, Brussel sprouts. She literally snatched them like with cooked meat and insects.
I always new I had an unnormal hedgehog😂
I think she'd like them once every week to be honest, I'm not really too sure about doing it much more because as you said they struggle to digest it.

I think Holly will do better with eating less biscuit to be honest. Which is why I want to try it now that I know more about it.


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## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

I think it’s important too, however, to remember the fact that they’re a domesticated breed. Like their cousins in the wild, they’re insectivores and do have a largely protein based diet, but since they’ve been bred so long in the *general* absence of meat and rather accustomed to a kibble based diet, many hedgehogs can get their entire nutritional value from a quality kibble. 
It’s also good to compare insect protein with raw meat; a raw mouse, for example, is going to have a comparably different protein make up and level among other things than a worm or cricket would. And while wild hedgehogs have been known to be very opportunistic at times, it’s unlikely they’ll even encounter a small vertebrate that they’d have access to eat. 
It’s great to hear all of these ideas and opinions, but we just have to remind ourselves that while our hedgehogs may thrive with x caretaking, another might be different. And many caretakers in different areas have access to different or maybe a wider selection of feeder insects etc to offer their hedgehogs. Hopefully, no one reading this is discouraged if you’re feeding your hedgehog a diet primarily of a good quality kibble and supplements of insects and fruits/veggies. 
Just like we wouldn’t regularly, if ever, give our dog or cat raw meat (though our cats might catch a mouse or bird here and there haha), African Pygmy hedgehogs too are a domesticated breed with similar yet slightly different adaptations than their wild amigos!
🙂


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Hedgehogs are domesticated, yes - but African Pygmy hedgehogs still exist in the wild. Cats have been domesticated for centuries. They’re still carnivores, though, who thrive on diets that closely mimic their natural would be diet vs kibble based. 

Wild African Pygmy hedgehogs most certainly do encounter small, whole prey like birds and young rodents - I think it’s a stretch to claim that something like this would be unlikely haha, the site I linked above had some further studies reference which listed the African Pygmy hedgehog specifically as a species who have been observed occasionally feasting on small rodents and birds. It’s not uncommon for them at all, actually, even though the bulk of their diet is insects. 

Cats and dogs are regularly fed raw diets in captivity - and they thrive on them - so I’m not too sure where you’re getting this information from haha. It’s wildly accepted (I have a dog, and two cats) that cats especially, who are fed majority kibble diets or even sole kibble diets, suffer horrendously from weight issues and kidney problems. 

Just because you domesticate an animal, it doesn’t often - I actually can’t think of a single commonly kept species where domestication has completely altered their diet requirements - change their requirement for certain food at all. No, they are not wild. But they’re still hedgehogs, and absolutely thrive on diets that include a variety of insects, meat (be it raw or cooked), whole prey, and a small amount of fruits and veggies with kibble as a supplement.


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## Brooke Lancelot (Jan 30, 2019)

I wanna get mine a chick or mouse 😂
I'd definitely do this diet plans, meat and insects once I move out, since I'm 16 and my gran does all the cooking. She isn't really willing to share food or cook it specifically for my boy, but once I'm on my own, I'll definitely alter his diet. For now, the majority is kibble with apple and insects.
He doesn't eat vegetables though. Once I tricked him by giving him small piece of cooked chicken, then right after that, I gave him cooked gem squash. He snatched it, thinking it was chicken, but as soon as he realized it wasn't, he wasn't really happy with me 😂


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Cats cant survive well with just biscuit diets, they get more problems and they dont have as ling of a lifespan, because they need to pretty much live off meat, their bodies needs a lot of taurine which is mainly found in meat otherwise they dont survive, cats that are fed just biscuit tend to have more health problems and have shorter a life span.

Dogs do a whole lot better on diets where they have lots of meat too, but unlike a cat they can do very well on just dog biscuit too, with they do still need a fair bit of meat, but if they are never given it doesnt matter and their life still goes on great without extra problems or a shorter life. But always do better when they have more meat in their diets

With hedgehogs I believe that the ones who have mainly cat biscuit have more health problems. Did you know that if you hog eats too much cat biscuit it causes blockages, causing constipation.
Hedgehogs from what I've read about different diets, do a whole lot better where the biscuit is very small in their diet, and they are the ones that tend to live longer to.
Day old mice and chicks, when offered they provide the hedgehog with great enrichment. They are very fatty though and pretty high in protein and calcium. They are especially great for pregnant hogs, underweight hogs, and old hogs who loose weight as they get older.
They can be offered to every other hedgehog though you just need to be carful of the fat.
Holly has had a mainly insects diet with cooked meat twice a week and cooked veg once a week. This was to help her eat less biscuit more often her whole life. Now I've read soooooo many stories about health problems and most hedgehogs by the time they get to 1 will have had 2-3 health problems, from as simple as mites (I know mites arent to do with diet so dont pick holes) but Holly is a year old and the only problem is shes slightly over weight so its just a case of changing her diet. Shes never even had mites. Never had dry skin - but I've always out a little flaxseed oil on her biscuit to prevent it
Hedgehogs who have diets mainly of biscuit seem to get shorter lives and more problems. 

I think hedgehogs do better on a more insect and meat diet than a biscuit diet, much like cats. Although dont get me wrong they can have good lives with just biscuit like dogs.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Holly diet is going from
14 insects, and biscuit daily with cooked meat twice a week and cooke veg once a week

To 
14 insects and biscuit daily, 5-6g cooked meat daily with cooked veg mixed in twice a week. Scrambled egg (without milk) once every other week and then a day old mouse or chick once a month (if she likes it)

My mum doesnt get a choice in this since I just pay her fir the meat and veg I use for Holly then I have to steam it myself.


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## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

I’m glad to hear that hedgehogs can thrive off of meat based diets! And never did I try to insinuate that my opinion was fact. Alas, I’m not an animal nutritionist but I don’t think anyone on this form is, stand me corrected. MY opinions have been expressed and my experience with hedgehogs can back this up, but it’s true that other owners have had different experiences and have had healthy hedgehogs otherwise. It might be something I’ll read up more on but from the Animals I have taken care of in my life, I can say I’m pretty confident that my methods are not harming or depriving them in any way! 🙂


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Dont get me wrong some hedgehogs do better on a mainly biscuit based diet as do some other animals. I'm sure you haven't deprived any of your animals from things they need. 
I'v had dogs that do better on just biscuit and some dogs that do better on a more meat diet - They were the same breed dog as well. 
I honestly believe that it depends on the way their body works


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I’m not an animal nutritionist; but i’m an animal science major, and nutrition is a huge part of my course. There’s no set way that works for every single animal out there; the same way that MOST cats will thrive on a raw diet, not ALL cats will. But, GENERALLY speaking, for the majority it is the best route to take. (Many apologies for caps; I’m on mobile, so can’t bold statements!). I was just making a point that you brought up about domestication in the sense that although no, they are not wild, they’re dietary components remain largely unchanged. 

Generally (keyword; generally) MOST hedgehogs will absolutely thrive on a varied diet where kibble is viewed as a supplement vs a diet where kibble is the bulk or even sole component of their diet. Surviving =/= thriving. That’s not to say that feeding a hedgehog kibble and a few insects on the side is “bad”, but there are certainly better and more natural ways to approach feeding them that *if the owner is prepared to do the research and has the desire to provide their hedgehog with such a diet*, should be encouraged as much as possible.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I think I have it balanced in what I plan to give, and she's good at regulating it herself too.
But this what I'm thinking - Any suggestions to make it better I'll gladly accept.

Monday - 14 insects (4 roaches, 5 locusts, 5 brown crickets) 14g biscuit (11.2% fat & 30.6% protein) and 5g Cooked Chicken
Tuesday - 14 insects (4 orange woodlice, 4 calci worms, 6 black crickets) 14g biscuit, 5g cooked duck&veg
Wednesday - 14 insects (Same as Monday) 14g biscuit, 5g cooked lamb
Thursday - 14 insects (same as Tuesday) 14g biscuit, 5g cooked chicken&veg
Friday - 14 insects (same as Monday) 14g biscuit, 5g Turkey
Saturday - 14 insects (same as Tuesday) 14g biscuit, and then she'll get 5g scrambled egg (not with milk) or 5g wet food, I'm gonna rotate them around 
Sunday - 14 insects (same as Monday) 14g biscuit, 5g Duck.

Then once a month, I'm gonna give a mouse, probably a 15g one as she's not likely to need to put on any weight. This will probably be on a Friday or Saturday instead of the cooked meat and I'll probably lower the insects given too.

I'm also thinking that some of the days rather than doing cooked i'll do raw but I need to go and look at what I can get before deciding this.

The days she has the meat and veg it will be more meat than veg and the veg is part of the 5g It'll probably be like 2g veg and 3g meat.

She'll get odd bits of fruit and cucumber an things along those lines she'll get as treats through bonding


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## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

Emc said:


> I'm not an animal nutritionist; but i'm an animal science major, and nutrition is a huge part of my course.


Same girl, #ZooScience represent!!! Us animal science folk gotta stick together lol
Also also idk how to quote just a portion of a post so if ya do lmk


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

To quote a portion of it you just go and delete the rest of the post and just leave the bit you want to quote


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## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

Oh wow here I am thinking it’s something complicated... thanks Ria!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Haha well now you know - I wasn't sure at first myself it only because I like trying things and seeing what happens if I do this that I learnt it😂


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Aj.t said:


> Same girl, #ZooScience represent!!! Us animal science folk gotta stick together lol
> Also also idk how to quote just a portion of a post so if ya do lmk


ayyy *airsnap*

I study Bioveterinary; so somewhat different than Zoology, but whatever - similar concept haha.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

So far what've been doing must be working be shes lost 10g this week she's now down to 680g !!
This week she has had more alternatives to her biscuit but I've also been changing the fat and protein to bring it lower. Which I think has helped.

I now have a choice to make.
At 14g biscuit I can have 30.6% protein 11.2% fat or 29.1% protein, 11.2% fat or 29.7% protein 11.4% fat. Or 13g at 29.2% protein 11.3% fat 
I'm half thinking on if the first two.


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## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

Ria said:


> .
> I now have a choice to make.
> At 14g biscuit I can have 30.6% protein 11.2% fat or 29.1% protein, 11.2% fat or 29.7% protein 11.4% fat. Or 13g at 29.2% protein 11.3% fat
> I'm half thinking on if the first two.


The first sounds like the best option of the four but if holly is a very active girl you should definitely bump the protein up to about 33%


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Shes active for an average of 4 hours so I wouldn't say she's overly active but she is fairly active. 
Sometimes she will be more active.


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