# Bindi's Raw Diet



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I finally get to start a thread of my own to update on switching a hedgehog to a raw diet! Yay! 

Now that Bindi is off her antibiotics & healthy again, I'm working on starting to introduce more foods into her diet. She was getting a kibble mix while with Soyala, and she got it for the first few weeks she was with me as well. While she was sick, I started offering her Wellness wet food pouches and she loves them. We've pretty much transitioned completely to the pouches now - she gets about half a pouch a night. 

So far for other foods introduced, she's gotten cooked chicken, canned crickets, canned snails, and raw broccoli. She's eaten all of it!

Future immediate plans:

- We have our first Rainbow Mealworms order arriving Friday or Saturday. This will have mealworms (starting a colony), crickets, hornworms, phoenix worms, dubia ****roaches, and spikes (fly larvae). Everything's getting gut-loaded first. Crickets and possibly ****roaches are going into the freezer pretty quickly after. Hornworms, phoenix worms, and spikes will probably kept in the fridge door so they go into hibernation state & last longer. If we get to a point where too many are try to metamorphose or die, I'll freeze them as well.

- I'm going to stop by a pet store sometime this week and get a bag of commercial raw dog food. I'm going to see how she likes it & hopefully transition her from the Wellness pouches to commercial raw for the time being.

- I also have some sample bags of freeze-dried raw. I'll be rehydrating them & offering to see if she likes them. If she reliably eats any, I'll be buying a bag to add to my emergency supply kit.

- Eventual goal is to give her 80/10/10 raw grinds, whole prey once a week or every other week, a mix of finely chopped veggies (Chop), a variety of insects, and occasional fruit.

So yeah! I'm super excited to finally have a chance to feed a hedgehog a raw diet and to share how this goes. Considering how good she's been about trying things so far, I have high hopes for this. Hopefully Bindi continues to cooperate!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

An update with the foods Bindi's tried recently & her opinions!

- Canned grasshoppers: omnom, all gone. She's gotten them a few times now and eats them every time.

- Grated carrot: only once so far, but ate the whole pile (weirdo hog)

- Phoenix worms: Was a bit annoyed at first that they weren't mealworms, but ate them up anyway. I've left them in the feeder bowl with mealworms in her cage two more nights & the bowl's been empty (and tossed around :roll each morning.

- Raspberry: Our first clunker. Tried a small one last night & it looks like she ate a bit, but at least half of it is left dried on the bowl. She's so weird! I like broccoli & carrots, but give me raspberries over them any day.

Still debating what's next for tonight. I think I'm going to stick the roaches in the freezer tonight, so she can try them tomorrow. She's been offered them before, but they moved, so she hid. :lol: Hopefully she finds them more appetizing when they're not moving. I might see what she thinks of the hornworms tonight, a couple of them are starting to get quite big.

As far as main diet, she's still getting the Wellness pouches, and gets kibble as a "just in case". She usually doesn't touch it, but still eats it every couple nights. I need to weigh her and see if she's being a piggy or if she actually needs to eat that much. :lol: I'm off work this weekend & have free time, so will probably make a run to the good pet store & get a bag of frozen raw dog food so we can try that out & see if she eats it. If she likes it, that'll become the new main diet for now.


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

I think we can learn something here... If your hedgehog is afraid of live food, they will enjoy a trip to the salad bar.


----------



## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

Omg either i forgot or it was in my absence that you finally have a new hedgie?! Haha!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

:lol: Two. Veggies don't crawl at you & try to grab your face, so I suppose it's a fair enough preference! I still think she's weird, but hey, no complaints.

Welcome back, Neil!  I do have a new hedgie, I just got her a month & 10 days ago! Another forum member that I'm friends with (Soyala_Amaya) runs a hedgehog rescue in my area & her first rescue came in pregnant. Bindi is one of the babies, and she's a total sweetheart.  I got super lucky!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Well, Mama goofed & forgot to save back some sweet potato from dinner tonight for Bindi. So that'll have to wait for another time! So tonight's new treat is maggots, or as Rainbow Mealworms calls them, "spikes". I gave her something like 1/4 teaspoon of them, they're really tiny! And I'm pleased to discover that she did approve of frozen dubia roaches - I guess they're tasty as long as they're not moving. Ate all three I gave her last night!  

We're doing really well with the insect/invertebrate portion of the diet.  Now I just need to keep working on the veggie part & see what she'll accept. Once I have a few more that she likes, I want to try making a small Chop batch to see if she'll eat it decently all mixed together. Once we're set with inverts & veggies, and I have an actual menu calculated/planned out, then I'll order the complete grinds & switch her off from commercial food completely. Slow but steady progress!


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

It seems more like find what she won't eat... Also my thinking says, what if you put a live bug in the fridge long enough to slow them and then give it to her.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

That's about what the game is by now. :lol: Should be more interesting once I start more veggies & fruit...I'm still surprised she was unimpressed with the raspberry. And that's a good idea! I'm not too fussy with her not wanting food that fights right now because it makes it easy to leave it in her cage for her. But eventually I want to try having her dig for insects, if I get her into it, so I may try teaching her to be a proper huntress at some point.


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Tap into her inner tater tiger! 
I wonder what it is about raspberries, maybe try different types. They have different tastes.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Okay, so I messed up last night, but it gave me interesting observations, so I don't mind too much. :lol: I didn't get into my room to change Bindi's food & say hi before her light went off, and she was already out & on her wheel when I did come in. I decided to leave her be for a bit so I wouldn't have to interrupt her again when I went to bed. She ended up eating some of the kibble that was in her cage since she didn't have any other food yet. So that meant she wasn't as hungry as usual & didn't finish her usual food when I did finally get it in there.

She didn't finish all of her Wellness, but I expected that as I'd given her her usual amount, just in case. The interesting part was what she picked & chose to eat from her bugs - mealworms were gone, but phoenix worms left in the bowl. Maggots gone (yay!!), but she didn't touch the canned snails. It's not the first time she's left those either, so I'm guessing they're not a huge favorite, though she will eat them. First time she's left phoenix worms though, and I'm amused that she picked around them to eat the mealworms. I kind of want to make a ranking scale for what she likes & doesn't like now. I might be getting a bit too interested in this whole hedgie diet thing!

I think tonight is going to be more dubias, maggots, and then the usual mealworms & phoenix worms. I want to freeze the hornworms because they could definitely climb out of the feeder bowl & I have no interest in one loose in the apartment, even if my roomie wouldn't murder me for it. so I'll stick them in tonight & she can try one out tomorrow. I really need to start coming up with some kind of schedule for her insects too. And I need to freeze the canned insects in the future...we're not going through them fast enough now that we have so many options to vary. Just babbling all of my reminders to myself here while I'm thinking of them. :lol:

Edit: Oh, I might try the raspberries again tonight! We still have some left and I don't think my roomie's planning on eating them at this point.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Maggots are still a yes. Raspberries are still a no. Sigh.

Tonight's extras are canned grasshoppers, her first hornworm cut up into four pieces (it was frozen, so this wasn't too disgusting!!), three mealworm aliens (suddenly realized I had a bunch & collected a small handful), and phoenix & mealworms.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Not much new to update right now as Miss Bindi is on antibiotics again as she was getting a bit sniffly again.  I have her cage raised up on a desk now, so hopefully that will help keep her clear of any drafts she was getting & we won't have any more sniffles! I'll post pictures of the new set up in our usual thread.

However, she did like the mealworm aliens & the hornworms. Also we tried one more new food before the meds started up again - strawberries! And she likes them.  Didn't quite clear the pile like she does with broccoli & carrots, but she ate almost all of it. Hedgie after my own heart, I like strawberries better than raspberries too. :lol:

I think our phoenix worms are starting to die in the fridge or something. I have a hard time telling the dead ones from live & hibernating ones, but I keep finding some or all of them left uneaten in the mornings. So either they're already dead & she disapproves or she just doesn't like getting them nightly. I guess that means we're sticking with only ordering a small number at a time. I may try freezing some next time...or we'll do more of them several times a week to try & use the 50 up in a month or something. I'll have to keep it in mind when I go about making her meal menu eventually.

Everything else is still getting cleaned up though! I've been pairing the grasshoppers & maggots together, and the dubia roaches & hornworms. Trying to pair something with more fiber with something that's higher protein, to help balance it out. So far so good! And she loves the hornworms, and doesn't seem to have made a mess of them on herself, which is a relief. :lol:

Here's a picture of the meal mentioned in my last post -


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I goofed and waited a bit too long to order more insects. We're out of maggots, snails, and we're almost out of phoenix worms. But we do still have hornworms, dubia roaches, grasshoppers, and mealworms, at least, so that should hold us over for now. I also stopped at Petsmart today & picked up 100 crickets, which are in the freezer. I should've gutloaded them, I know.  But I don't have a good container to put them in right now, so I shrugged it off for now. I'll have to get a good cricket container before the next time I buy them.

I also just placed another order with Rainbow Mealworms. We're getting more mealworms, dubia roaches, hornworms, phoenix worms, and maggots, and I also added red earthworms this time.  Can't wait to see what she thinks! Unfortunately silkworms are still unavailable. I'm really looking forward to getting some of those for Bindi to try. I need to get more canned snails from Amazon, so I might get some of the canned silkworm pupae to try out as well. Going to wait on them for now though, so I can add them to my order of cat supplies.


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Ooh I'm excited to see how the earthworms go! 

What do the snails you get look like? I was at the grocery store the other day buying turkey for Finn and I saw that they carry unseasoned canned snails for people. They're just Achatina fulica snails in their own juice in a can. I think I'll pick some up tomorrow and dice them for Finnick to try, since I can't get my usual ones out here easily. I used to have a pet Achatina fulica (and he was my favorite pet of all time) so I'm kind of sad to be feeding bits of Gabe's relatives to my hedgehog, but I guess I'll take what I can get :lol:


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Sorry, I completely missed your comment before! I'm not sure how to describe the snails, honestly. They're small & grey? :lol: Size is about that of a penny or so, I think. They're the Zoo Med Can o Snails. I haven't actually looked at ones for people yet because I figured they'd probably be seasoned, but I might take a look...I wonder if they'd be any cheaper. That is sad about Gabe though! I've read about pet snails a couple times on Tumblr and they seem pretty cute.

The insects arrived today! I got two sizes of hornworms, so the bigger ones will grow faster & be ready to feed soon & the smaller ones will have more time, plus you get more of them. The tiny ones are soooo teeny. They're kind of cute, even. Not that they'll stay that way, sigh. I'm going to give the earthworms a few days. I'm not sure if they're full grown or not...they look small to me. At the very least I want to give them some lettuce or apple or something though, before Bindi eats them. The dubias are in a cricket keeper with apple.

So....a word of caution for anyone who may decide to try out different feeders. If you get maggots? FREEZE. THEM. Freeze. Them. Dead serious. I decided to give Bindi some tonight since she had hornworm last night & snails the night before (and didn't finish all - she left one). Put a small scoop in the bowl & kept preparing the rest of her meal. It didn't occur to me that the maggots spent a good deal of today being fairly warm, not cold. They warmed up quickly...which meant got very wiggly quickly. I was creeped out, but shrugged it off.

Until one climbed the bowl. And climbed OUT of the bowl. Cue freak out. Cue me dumping the bowl in the cage, and dragging Bindi out from under her liner. "Bindi wake up. Eat the maggots. Eat them right now." Bindi glanced at the bowl & turned her attention to the mealworms & phoenix worms. I took that bowl away & she quilled up and huffed & hissed at me. "NOPE, not those worms, EAT THE ONES THAT ARE ESCAPING. Here, I'll even turn the light off, just eat them PLEASE." I came back 30 seconds later and most were eaten, so I turned the light back off & waited a bit longer. Came back & she was working on her cat food & there were three still alive, so I squished them with the plastic tweezers. 

Moral of the story: FREEZE THE MAGGOTS. The rest of my bag is in the freezer now. Nope nope nope. *shudders*


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

I used to buy the Can o Snails too, so I know the ones. Thanks! I'm pretty sure they're the same species. I also found some tiny ones that looked like little grey pebbles, but I can't remember the brand. They were also marketed for reptiles though. I added them on top like sprinkles. The ones I found are only at one store here and not the other (Co-Op and not Superstore, I don't think you 'Mericans have either of those...) but they were $2 for the same sized can as the Zoo Med ones. I'll be trying them starting next week.

Eeeeeewwwww maggots. I had no idea they were little squirmy escape artists. That's so nasty *shudder*.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yeah, we don't have those stores. Let me how they go though! Definitely a good deal. And maybe it's just how early it is, but I'm cracking up over snail sprinkles. I'm so used to animal food that it sounds like a perfectly reasonable thing, then I think what non-animal people would think and start giggling.

I'm still so creeped out by the maggots even today. Forever freezing those now... I'm glad Bindi likes her food dead, not just live.


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

I would always sprinkle them on and then laugh, so it's not just you :lol:. It just seems so ridiculous when you stop and think about it. And it doesn't help that the meal ends up looking like something you could order in a nice restaurant, except for the fact that it's full of bugs and topped with snails xD.

Finnick likes to chase his food. I'm not sure how he would feel about a bowl of dead maggots... I don't think I'll find out because I really don't want to have to feed them live. Blech.


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

It's a good thing she was willing to eat the wigglers or you might have had to catch them. I wonder if a shoebox with a hole cut in it would contain them so she could eat them and they don't have full access to the whole cage.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I love making animal food look like human food, it amuses me. I don't even know why, animals are just so much more fun to feed. I haven't made myself a meal that takes more than 5 minutes to make all week, but I'll drive two hours to look at cat food options and buy snake food, and Bindi basically gets a five course meal every night. :lol:

I'm honestly not sure that would even work, Two. I'm not sure how well they could stick to cardboard... Or if Bindi would even go in to eat them. We're still working on enrichment. So far she'll eat insects out of her ceramic frog and the end of the PVC pipe. I got a new puzzle toy on Sunday that looks PERFECT for hedgehogs, I need to remember to show you guys when I get home. But I think maggots could escape from that too, so it'll probably be for phoenix worms (which are pathetic :lol or frozen things. 

Y'know, I wonder if I could convince her to stop looking for cover long enough to be interested in food from an enrichment toy in front of me. Maggots might work in a tube or ball with holes in it, if she can figure it out while I supervise. I'll have to give that a shot and see.


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Sorry, didn't explain clearly. 

Plastic shoebox tote thingamagigger. Cut a hole on the side big enough for the tater queen to go in and out. Put the dish of bugs inside. 
It's basically a very rudimentary forage feeder.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Ohhh, I see, sorry. That could definitely work! Honestly, I could use the Lixit igloo I have for that, she doesn't sleep in it anyway. :roll: I'll have to start using it for foraging instead. Maggots are still getting frozen from now on though. :lol: Creepy little jerks.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Had fun organizing animal meals tonight, so I took pictures!



Bindi's meal tonight is Wellness wet food, crickets, maggots, and she's trying red pepper for the first time. Added some Bene-Bac to her food in case the new food upsets anything. She also has her usual phoenix worms and mealworms in the worm bowl.

And just for fun, here's the crabby meal tonight too!



Left dish is their supplement dish with bonemeal powder, earthworm castings, and mineral supplement. They've been nuts for the mineral supplement lately. Right dish is their main dry food dish. Tonight it has brine shrimp, dried jicama, dried apple, whitefish, and sheep poop (yeah, I know, gross). The left shell has peas, carrots, and strawberries. The right shell has boiled chicken, crickets, and some red pepper. As I progress on giving frozen/fresh foods to the bigger animals, I'm hoping it'll help me remember to give the crabbies frozen/fresh foods more often! Everyone can eat generally the same things, so it'll make it easier.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

And she liked the red pepper too! I think it's time to stop with the single ingredient additions and start thinking about making a Chop mix for her. Which means time to get my butt in gear & start doing calculations to figure out what I want to put in the Chop & proportions of everything, etc.! I'm going to weigh out how much I've been giving of everything tonight, to get a better idea of a total weight to offer her, then go from there to figure out what I want to do for proportions. Then I'll figure out what veggies, and make sure I have all of the necessary vitamins & minerals accounted for. I think while I'm doing this, I'll work on setting up an Excel spreadsheet that will help with doing the calculations, if I can remember how to set up equations on the program. It'll make my work a lot easier, and then I can figure out a way to upload the template somewhere for others to use if they want. No promises on when I might get it up, but I'm hoping to spend tomorrow working on this as I don't have any other plans after working a couple hours in the morning.


----------



## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

Lucky you that Bindi likes pretty much anything. Ichiro is stubborn, I was finally able too find the second kibble he would eat after 3 failed attempts and he hardly touches anything else... I know he went in the treat bowl for some baby food because I found the prints all over but he doesn't eat anything else... Sigh...


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yeah, I don't know how I got so lucky, considering the kind of diet I want to do with her. She's such a weird hedgie! :lol: "Hedgehogs are picky...except mine, who doesn't seem to know she's a hedgehog." My roomie & I joke that our cat is the only animal in the house that doesn't have identity issues because the hedgehog & snake are both so unlike what their species usually is! I wish I could get Bindi to tell other hedgies to be more adventurous!


----------



## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

From what I read here from other owners, I consider myself lucky. Ichiro is great, he is sweet, he never balls up or raises his quills, maybe when I wake him (I make him roll down his tunnel. Lol) and as soon as my hand is in front of him he is fine. He loves getting under my shirt and sleeping there and he doesn't get aggravated when my 7 year old daughter "plays" with him in the playpen (always supervised off course). Today we had company for dinner and he was out for a while, everybody held him, even my daughter's friends and he never raised quills nor hissed nor bite... And he didn't poop on anyone. At some point he crawled from my friend's hand to mine but was always a sweet boy. 

He also uses his wheel on the loft and never gets the bottom floor dirty and I can clip his nails all at once without him complaining and bath time is easy. I'm very happy with my little boy.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

That's awesome! I'm glad he's such a sweet boy for you, even if he is picky about food.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Bindi continues to be super weird and likes kale. Tonight's new treat is mealworm beetles. I'm hoping she likes them and then I can freeze all of them...I'm quitting the mealworm farm. I don't like the upkeep, the beetle drawers smell gross to me (and they're right by my door, so I smell them every time I pass), and I've found a couple loose, which is a major No No with my roommate. Since I have to order from Rainbow Mealworms regularly for the rest of the insects anyway, I'm going to just keep ordering mealworms as needed - I can keep some in the fridge to stay mealies and let some grow and become pupae & beetles so I have those available to feed her too. And they're not expensive, especially compared to some of the other insects (hornworms, phoenix worms, silkworms). 

Last night & tonight have been spent working on the data spreadsheet. I'm finishing up veggies now and still debating on what I want to give her. I have some greens I'm leaning more towards over kale due to calcium content, but we'll see. I still need to look at vitamin content & other minerals as well, I've only calculated out protein/fat/fiber percentages and calcium: phosphorus ratio so far. Right now I'm pretty sure I'm including red pepper, sweet potato, and broccoli. I'm also strongly leaning towards parsley, collard greens, and turnips. Still up in the air are watercress, kale, turnip greens, swiss chard, dandelion greens, and cauliflower.


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Kale is everyone's favorite around here, except the dogs. They would rather eat peanut butter honey crust than veggies.
Dandilion greens are popular, since I am a master gardener in the dandelion department. 
Actually everyone eats greens. My youngest son doesn't but he doesn't count, and I have to try fresh greens from the garden with him.
Have you thought about squash or pumpkin?


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

I stuck some butternut squash in Finn's mix this time around and he's been picking chunks out and eating them. I just scraped the guts into a pan and let them get almost crispy but not quite on the stovetop. I ate some before it was cooked and it was bitter, so I cooked it :lol:.

Broccoli goes in everything I make around here. It's such a power food. Since I live in a rental I don't trust the dandelions, but I do use the mixed greens kits from the store in the hedgehog and skink foods. There's one that has parsley and cilantro in it and that's a big hit here.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I did consider butternut squash, I can't remember now if I decided against it for some reason or just hadn't looked it up yet. And now I can't for the time being because it seems I've finally killed my laptop, which isn't much of a surprise with how I treat it. On the plus side, I saved all of my files on a USB last night when it was acting weird. Need to decide if I want to try and save it or just get a new one. Too early for decisions right now though. :lol: So yeah, nutrition planning is postponed briefly anyway... Hopefully not for long. Thank god for smart phones!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Bindi likes mealworm beetles and apple. Went grocery shopping today primarily for the animals (the contrast between what I bought them and what I bought me is pretty embarrassing!) and got turnip greens, turnips, collard greens, parsley and blackberries. Also got mango and some seafood for the crabs, not sure if Bindi will get any of those things yet. I think mango was on the no list due to citrus, but I might be confusing it with something else, I need to double check.


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

I'm always so sad when I go shopping for myself and my pets on the same trip. I must look like I eat an amazing diet to the cashier though. Has Bindi tried turnips and turnip greens yet? I'm so interested in what she thinks of all this. I can't believe she likes apple. I have to give Finnick homemade applesauce with mushed berries in it to get him to eat apples.

Also that sucks so bad about your laptop. Good thing you decided to back everything up when you did! Back in my day when your computer started going you had to dig out a few hundred floppies or a spindle of CDs and hope for the best. It's so much easier now. Yes, I am old. :lol:


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I swear, she likes everything. :lol: Haven't tried the turnips yet, last night we did parsley and she ate it all up. This weekend I'm going to work on cutting up a lot of the other stuff I got so I can freeze it for her and the crabs and dry some of it for the crabs too. So we'll try the turnips and sweet potatoes then, and maybe blackberry, before they go bad. Then we'll get into the other greens too. I'm going to the good pet store Sunday for rats for Charis. Hoping to pick up some calcium powder too... Not sure what kind yet. Leaning towards the kind without D3 for now, I'll probably end up with both, though. I want to try offering both to the crabs too, and see which they seem to prefer.

Oh and I just got in a huge bug order for Bindi! 750 maggots, 100 roaches, ~45 hornworms, 200 phoenix worms, and 500 mealworms. Most of those are in the fridge for now. Hornworms are growing a bit and the roaches are munching on apple. As soon as I have my new laptop and can finish calculations and plans for Bindi, I'll be placing an order on Hare Today.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Turnip greens are a yes, collard greens got a less enthusiastic reception, but she still tried more of them than she did raspberries. I finally got off my butt tonight to start chopping up turnips and sweet potato for freezing and drying, so we'll try one of those tonight. New laptop comes tomorrow, so I'll be able to keep working on finalizing her meal plans then and order from HT. Making more plans for Ebony's raw diet comes next, since I'll be getting her a few things from HT as well.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

So I finally made myself eat something healthy yesterday. I had a salad made with the kale, collard greens, and turnip greens and discovered that Bindi's right - collard greens aren't great raw! They're too thick & tough to go well in a salad (or on their own, according to Bindi). I liked the turnip greens though, so she's gonna have to share those with mama! :lol: 

Also, Bindi has yet another nickname, thanks to Soyala. Goathog!  It fits her well. She likes both turnips and sweet potatoes. I think the only thing I have left in the house right now (plant-wise) that she hasn't tried yet is blackberries. We're doing a couple nights with no treats to let her stomach settle (messy wheel night before last), but I may try the blackberries tomorrow. 

And today I went to the pet store for rats for Charis and as usual, came home with more than I meant to buy. I finally got calcium powder (a jar with D3 added and a jar without), and I also picked up a can each of grasshoppers & snails (almost out), and we got some waxworms and nightcrawlers for Bindi to try. I'm super excited about the nightcrawlers! I was afraid they'd be the red wigglers again when I asked about the earthworms. But nope, nice, big & juicy. :lol: Hopefully they'll go over better with the Goathog than the red wigglers did. The waxworms are already in the freezer so we'll give those a try in a couple days. I have SO many insects and invertebrates in my freezer now, it's ridiculous.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Didn't plan to post twice so close together, but since I'm spending my night doing gross things like sorting frozen maggots and picking out live mealworm beetles to freeze...I wanted to share the gross. :lol:

WARNING: Do not scroll down if you're very squeamish or phobic of insects/worms. I want to gross people out, but not to the point of sickness or panicking!!

A spoonful of maggots helps the medicine go down...right? Wait, I think I got that wrong...oh well. :lol:


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Why did Mel go on hiatus? She needs to be a part of the creepy crawlies!!!


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Yummy!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Thought I'd post Bindi's food for tonight.



Mealworms and phoenix worms in the worm bowl as usual. Wellness Health Indulgence, can't remember which flavor this one is, I don't keep track anymore. Mealworm beetles, a HUGE grasshopper (the can I bought this time has massive ones...she didn't touch the last one & if she doesn't tackle this one either, I'm going to try cutting up the next one), a spoonful of maggots, and two waxworms. She's trying the waxworms for the first time tonight, so we'll see if the Goathog likes those too. I can't imagine she wouldn't, given the high fat content.

In other diet news, I have a mostly finalized list for the Chop - broccoli, collard greens (going to give them a try, will leave them out from the next batch if she eats around them in a mix), kale, parsley, red pepper, sweet potato, and turnip greens. I think turnips are getting kicked out if I can find something I like better...I spent part of today noting down the amounts of vitamins & minerals in each veggie on the list and noting what the top three veggies are for each vitamin/mineral, and which veggies are highest in nutrients. Kale, parsley, and turnip greens came out on top. Turnip didn't make the top three for any of the nutrients, which is why I'm considering dropping it. Broccoli wasn't highest in anything, but came in second for a couple, so I'm leaving it. I checked carrot and it's most notable nutrient is vitamin A, which I already knew, and which I already have a few things high in, so I don't think that's going in. Think I may check cauliflower again, and maybe some other ground veggies. I want something else heavy-ish to balance out all of the light greens. I thought about including mushrooms, but they have an absolutely awful calcium: phosphorus ratio, so I changed my mind on that. If I can't find anything within a couple more checks tonight, I'll leave it as is.


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Waxworms are a big hit with everyone around here. I hope the goathog likes them!

I'm so excited to see if she likes the chop! I can't imagine she'll turn it down considering all the things she likes to eat.

Mushrooms... I don't know. I love mushrooms but they're not particularly good for much :lol:. I'm the only one in the family that eats them.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yep, she ate them up! I think she actually ate the giant grasshopper this time too, but I have to look again after work to see if it's actually gone or if she just dragged it out and left it somewhere. :lol: 

I think I decided on replacements for turnips. Pumpkin (doesn't stick out much for any nutrients, but it gets used so often for bowel issues, I figured why not if I can find it) and parsnips, which are more nutritious than I realized. Med to stop at the store in the next couple days anyway, so I'll have to grab dinner to try.

I'm annoyed because I want to calculate numbers for everything (mostly for fun), but don't think it's possible. Can't find total figures for the whole meat grinds because the company doesn't have them and the nutritional facts sites don't include bone in their analysis. So I think the only calculations I can do now are total protein/fat/fiber for the diet, and figure out how much calcium powder to add to balance out the insects. The Chop should at least balance itself out, with the high calcium in the greens. I want to calculate vitamin D needs too, so I can decide how much of the calcium will be the plain stuff versus the added D3.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Bindi's meal for tonight! I got my Hare Today order, so we're finally starting the introductions of the whole ground meats that will (hopefully) replace the Wellness. Fingers crossed that Goathog lives up to her name and likes them too! She got some of the whole ground rabbit tonight as I think that'll be the iffiest one. Her Wellness food has duck & chicken flavors & she likes those just fine, so I don't expect too many issues with those flavors. Not sure what she'll think of the salmon either though. Besides the Wellness & rabbit, she also has dubia roaches, hornworms, and mealworm pupae.

Oh, and she does like waxworms (unsurprisingly), she can actually tackle those giant freaking grasshoppers (how?? I cut up last night's for her because it was just so huge. I'm so paranoid :lol, and she also ate the earthworms I gave her last night. I was wondering if she would as she left them in her dish the second time I gave them to her. So I take it that means they're not a favorite, but if she decide she's hungry enough, she'll eat them.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Slowly but surely...we're making our way towards the final version of her meals. I'm weighing her food each night right now, trying to get the amounts of everything right. She's getting 30g of food right now (about 7% of her weight as compared to the typical 2-3% of weight that raw fed dogs & cats get) - 12g of insects, 9g of meat, 6g of veggies, and 3g of fruit. She gets 2g each of 6 kinds of insects. We're working on phasing out the Wellness right now, tomorrow night will probably be the last time she gets that. Once she's completely on rabbit, then I'll start adding in one of the other meats - chicken, salmon, or duck. And so on until she's fine with all four & I can start giving her a different one each night. Right now the veggies are still just some I have in the freezer from when we were first trying them - weekends keep being crazy & I still haven't made her Chop! :? Really need to do that soon before the veggies start getting gross... And the fruit tonight is mango, first time she's had it. It's last on my list for things to do for her diet, but I need to start getting a variety of fruits that are safe for her & see what she likes, then I can freeze portions of that & make it easier to add that to her meals. So far I have strawberries, blackberries, and mango to give her. I think I'll probably get a frozen berry mix and then maybe frozen peaches or something. If she likes the mango, that'll be another. And I still want to try banana with her too. Baby food might be another consideration for the fruit part of her diet, we'll see.

I also still want to work in some more insects. Silkworms and isopods for sure. And possibly also termites and dermestid larvae/beetles. Not sure if I want to deal with the dermestid things...the larvae creep me out big time & I haven't dealt with the beetles before. Termites, I need to see how many I can order & what the cost is. I have a site bookmarked that offered them, but need to check it again. They seem fairly nutritious though, so I'd like to give them a shot & see what she thinks.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Finally managed to get going & make Bindi's veggie Chop today!  I made one pound, enough for about 2.5 months.





Her veggie Chop has collard greens, kale, parsley, turnip greens, broccoli, sweet potato, red pepper, and parsnips. I did equal amounts of each by weight, 2oz of each veggie. She'll be getting about 6g of Chop each night with her meals. Now that I have this all done, I'm going to make up a schedule of food for her so it's easier for me to grab what she needs each night - right now I keep forgetting what she had most recently or what she hasn't had in a couple days. That will also enable me to see how long it takes to go through x amount of an insect so I can plan out insect orders better and also start looking around for better deals from various websites. Hopefully I'll be able to get the cost of her diet down then - right now it'll cost about $75/month!

And just for fun, I decided to put some of the leftovers all together & made up another batch of Chop to freeze for the hermit crabs! 



They didn't get all of the same greens, but it does have kale, some collards, broccoli, red pepper, sweet potato, parsnips, and I tossed some baby carrots in as well. I'm less picky about balancing for the crabs because they seem to do a good job of picking what they need as long as they're provided with a good variety (which they definitely get!).


----------



## Dumble (Feb 22, 2016)

Your hog eats better than me. I'm jelly


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Man, time flies. I didn't realize how long it's been since I posted an update about Bindi's diet here! I don't have any pictures yet, but plan to take one of her dinner tonight, so I'll post that later. For now, just a long wordy (because I don't know how to be brief :lol update on how she's doing.

She's still getting the meat, insects, and veggies nightly. I've been bad about including fruit recently as I ran out of the few things she actually likes. She's surprisingly picky about fruit! So far the things she'll eat reliably are mango, apple, and watermelon. Berries tend to be hit or miss. She just got banana for the first time last night & ate it all up, so I plan to cut up & freeze the rest of the one I cut up last night. Need to get more mango too.

As far as the veggies, she doesn't eat all of what I give her. She stopped eating the mix at all for a while, so I tried some of the Honest kitchen base mixes to see if she'd give those a try. No go - she wouldn't touch them. So I started trying my veggie mix again and she's started eating some again, at least. I'm planning to try mixing together some veggie baby foods, maybe this next weekend, and see what she thinks of that. If she likes it, I may stick with that, or may alternate baby food mixes & Chop mixes to keep her interested in the veggies.

No problems with the meat or insects!! She eats them first & eats all of them. She still gets mealworms and phoenix worms nightly - about 6-10 mealworms and ~15 phoenix worms. Those are the only things still live, as I have a worm dish that can contain them. I rotate waxworms, hornworms, and maggots, then give a combo mealworm beetles, pupae, dubia roaches, crickets, grasshoppers, snails, and earthworms for the other three things in the insect portion. She sometimes doesn't finish all of the earthworms, but usually does. I also have something new to try her on tonight - hornworm pupae!! They're HUGE. :shock: I didn't quite mean to end up with them, but forgot about the last few worms in the containers and they were changed when I finally noticed them. So I shrugged & tossed them in the freezer! No clue what the nutrient info would be for them, but I figure it's probably a little different from hornworms, and can't hurt to try. If she likes them, I may try to hang onto some more hornworms next time I order & let them change.

I also may have another invert for her to try soon - isopods! I've been trying to leave my colony alone so it could get a good start. I went to give them some apple & spray with water today and found TONS of babies!










So I may start pulling some adults out soon to freeze & see what she thinks. They're extremely high in calcium, since they're crustaceans & have a hard exoskeleton, so they'd be fantastic to include in her diet. Unfortunately I think they're adorable & I'm getting attached, so I'm not sure I'll be able to feed them to her. :lol: Weird, I know.

As far as the meat portion...We're still doing rabbit, chicken, duck, and salmon. She loves them all! I just ordered more meat grinds & got a pound each of turkey and herring this time. Right now just planning to see what she thinks of them. If she likes the herring, it may replace the salmon as it's almost half the price. But I'm not sure if the turkey will replace anything or maybe just add in to the rotation.

I also have some whole meat prey things. I already found that she likes pinky mice, so I ordered a couple packages of those with the meat order. She's getting one tonight for her birthday!  I also got rat pinkies, which are about twice the size of mouse pinkies. I got those to try as kind of a step up between the mouse pinkies and day-old quail. So she'll probably try a rat pinky sometime this week or next weekend, then we can give the quail a try. Depending on how she does with them & if she likes them, I'll probably start replacing the meat grinds in her diet with a whole prey item at least once a week. Probably on a weekend, so a bath can follow if she gets too messy. :lol:

As far as Bindi's health, she's been doing absolutely fantastic! No health issues, she runs on her wheel nightly. She seems well hydrated, even without drinking much water (doesn't need to with the high-moisture natural diet). No dry skin, her fur & quills look great. Her nails look good too, and keep me busy with trimming. I don't have much comparison as to whether they grow faster as Pancake's feet are still a bit wonky from the bout of ringworm she had. Bindi's poop looks totally normal too. It stays in nice little logs & rolls right off her wheel, so I hardly have to clean it. I can get away with cleaning it maybe once a week or so, which is really nice!! And while I can't say for sure how much of the veggies she's able to gain nutrition from, I don't see any undigested veggie bits coming out in her poop, so I think she's at least able to digest them sufficiently enough. Her weight has also been very stable, no variance either way really. I still keep a vague eye on it, just in case, but the balance of fatty & lean food items seems to be working well for her. No issues yet from getting things like the waxworms & duck twice a week.

I'm planning on getting her to the vet in the next month or so for a 1-year wellness exam. I plan on having bloodwork done, if possible, so I can see what all of her levels look like & if there's any negative impacts from the diet that may show on that. I also want to discuss her diet with one of the vets at my clinic, who's very interested in natural/raw diets & is the best one for planning out specialized diets to help with health issues, etc. I don't know that she has any experience with hedgehogs, but I'd still like to see what her thoughts on Bindi's diet are. And of course I'll post on here once that happens!

I think that's about it for now. I'll try to get some pictures up later tonight! If anyone has any questions or anything that I missed, feel free to ask.  Obviously, I have no issues talking forever about this stuff. :lol:


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Bindi's birthday dinner! Two pinky mice in place of her usual meat grind, her veggie mix & some banana, then roaches, mealworm pupae, a hornworm and hornworm pupae, and maggots. Mealworms and phoenix worms in the worm dish!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I took Bindi in for a wellness exam last week, since she just turned a year. With being on a fully raw diet for 2-3 months at this point, I decided to get bloodwork done too, and see if there were any indications that I should adjust her diet.

We got the results back today, I'll try to get them posted sometime soon when I'm on my laptop. But I'm extremely happy, everything looks pretty normal!! There were two things slightly out of range - her WBC (white blood cell, I'm guessing) was 5, normal 6-11. And her calcium was a bit high at 11.8, normal is 6.7-10.7. The vet wasn't concerned about anything and said she'd rather have slightly high calcium for an active female rather than low. But I think I'm still going to lower calcium in her diet just a little, just in case. I've been doing 2 out of 3 days, and think I'm going to do 3x/week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and do a bit less. We'll probably do bloodwork again in 6 months or so, provided money isn't an issue at the time. Bindi got a great check up otherwise!! Her skin, fur, and quills look healthy, her quill coat is nice and thick, she has good energy, poops look perfect, etc. So happy to have such a healthy little potato!


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Yay! I'm glad she's doing well and the diet is working! I just got Finn's bloodwork back from his yearly exam and everything is perfect. It's so nice when they're healthy.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

That's great, I'm glad Finn is doing well with his diet too!  Yay for healthy potatoes!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Alright, time for a nice big update! Because I'm super excited about Bindi's diet right now and we know how I like to ramble about animal food. :lol:

So first off, Bindi's been on her raw diet for 7 months now. She just had a vet check up on Friday. The vet said she looked fantastic. She's 461g, a good weight for her, and what she's been for at least 6 months. She might just be a weirdly steady hedgehog, but it seems that the fatty parts of her diet are still well balanced by the leaner parts. She also had bloodwork done. The calcium, protein, and albumin levels were slightly elevated. The vet checked with the lab, which is one that specializes in exotic animals, so they have more experience than just with cats/dogs. They were informed of her raw diet & said that the levels aren't a concern at all given her diet. So everything checks out fine & she's doing great!  I'm very excited that her diet seems to be working so well for her.

She eats all of her food a good portion of the time. The veggies are the part that are most hit & miss, which isn't unusual to me. I don't worry too much anymore - she goes through phases where she'll eat all of her veggies for a while, then go for a week or so without eating them at all, then eat some of them, etc. I figure with the variety she has available & with her bloodwork looking good, she's eating what she needs. She seems to digest the veggies well enough - her poop always looks great and I don't ever really see any undigested veggies or greens in it. Sometimes I'll find a bit of undigested insect exo, but not frequently or in concerning amounts.

Given that she's clearly doing well & her bloodwork is fine, I haven't gotten around to really calculating out her calcium exactly. I know it'd probably be better to do so for peace of mind, but it doesn't seem to be hurting anything to go without. She gets calcium powder sprinkled over her insects 3x/week now - Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I've stopped using the powder that has added vitamin D, as she gets fish (salmon & possibly sardine soon) 1-2x a week right now & that's high in vitamin D. 

I may continue doing bloodwork at each of her 6 month check ups, just because hedgehogs have such a short lifespan & things can go wrong so quickly. I feel better having that reassurance, even if she seems to be fine. And it'll be a bonus that doing it to check her nutrition will mean that we might catch other health issues early if something else pops up on the results. 

So now, what her current diet is! I've stopped measuring it out exactly, but it's still about the same percentages as I previously decided upon. 40% insects, 30% meat grinds, 20% veggies, 10% fruit. 

Insects/invertebrates: Mealworms and phoenix worms nightly. I rotate waxworms, maggots (spikes), and hornworms. I rotate earthworms and snails. And then she gets two more things out of the following - crickets, dubia roaches, mealworm pupae, mealworm beetles, and grasshoppers. 

Meat grinds: She's currently getting duck, rabbit, salmon, and turkey. She was previously getting chicken instead of turkey, we just introduced the turkey to get something new. She also gets whole prey one night a week on the weekends. I alternate pinky mice & pinky rats - she usually gets 2-3 pinky mice and just one pinky rat. She eats all of them & seems to like them just as much as everything else!

Veggies: Still the same mix as stated earlier in the thread. Collard greens, turnip greens, parsley, sweet potato, red peppers, and parsnips. Equal weights of each thing, run through a food processor until quite small. I might try lightly cooking the greens next time I make it, not sure yet.

Fruit: Currently I rotate banana, apple, mango (just ran out & need to get more), and an apple/blueberry baby food. I want to try getting some more baby foods, or possibly do a big fruit puree & see if she'll eat it. I'd like her to get more berries, but she doesn't like them fresh or frozen. If I do a fruit puree, I'll probably put in banana, apple, mango, blueberry, raspberry, and strawberry & see what she thinks.


I'm excited right now because I just did a bunch of food orders for her & we got some new things to try!

I got day-old quail to add to her whole prey options. They're about the same weight as the pinky rats, so I think they should be manageable for her. 

I got whole ground sardine, which will be an experiment. I tried herring & it made her pretty stinky, so she's not getting that anymore. If the sardine makes her stinky as well, we'll just stick with the salmon. Otherwise, I'll alternate containers of sardine & salmon to get some fish variety!

Also got whole ground goat, pheasant, and guinea pig. I think I'll probably add goat or guinea pig to her regular rotation as they have more organs included than the birds (birds have just liver, the others have kidney, spleen, etc.). Whichever doesn't get added to the regular rotation will just get alternated with rabbit to get some variety in, and so will the pheasant. I'm thinking the turkey & duck might get rotated, and the pheasant & chicken? We'll see! 

And then for insects, I ordered 1000 superworms from Rainbow Mealworms with an order of regular stuff, even though they creep me out SO much! I just got that order today, picked the bag of superworms up, stared at it, and shoved it straight in the freezer. :lol: I can't deal with them! *shudder* I also ordered silkworms from a different site for the first time. I got canned silkworm pupae from Amazon. And instead of going out to the pet store that's 40 minutes away, I ordered 100 (I think?) earthworms from another website. Not something new, really, but a new source. Those are gonna be gross to deal with, but at least they'll last her a good while. If she likes them & I like the site, I'll probably keep ordering from there instead of driving all the way to the pet store.

To work the new insects in, I think I'll probably add the silkworms to the hornworm/maggot/waxworm rotation, the pupae to the snail/earthworm rotation, and the superworms in with the cricket/roach/beetle/mw pupae/grasshopper rotation.

Oh! And I also have a tank of isopods that I'm working on taking better care of so maybe they'll reproduce more. If I can get a bigger colony going, I'd like to add those into Bindi's diet as well, since they're very high in calcium.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Thought I'd share a picture of Bindi's meal tonight. We've been getting in her food orders all week & trying the new things. So far she's eaten up the silkworms, silkworm pupae, and superworms! Even more exciting, Pancake also likes the silkworms and superworms, so there's a couple more insects in her rotation now. 










I'm excited tonight because she's getting a day-old quail chick for the first time, the new addition to her whole prey options. Should be interesting to see if she eats the whole thing or not! I'll be up for a couple more hours, so I'll be checking in to see how she's doing before I go to bed. She's usually taken a first crack at the food bowl by then.

Besides the quail, tonight's meal includes her veggie mix, apple, maggots, crickets, canned silkworm pupae, superworms, and (not pictured) mealworms & phoenix worms.


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Mmm yummy! I hope she liked the quail!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

She seems to have! It's completely gone, not a trace to be found. I was kind of curious whether she'd have any issues with the feathers or the legs, but apparently not. I'm cleaning the cages today though, so we'll see if I find any bits that got stashed or something. :lol:


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Wow. That's impressive! I hope she actually did eat it all, because that would be awesome.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I never did update, but yeah, Bindi ate all of the freaking quail. :lol: And has since then! I'm still amazed. Of course, last night she got a rat pinky for her whole prey...and for the first time decided to leave some behind. The head. I picked the head up in her cage today. :roll: THANKS Bindi!

Anyway, I thought I'd share what my freezer looks like, what with this raw diet & all.



It's a bit ridiculous. :lol: Only the stuff in the middle + the ice cream are human food (as well as the door of the freezer). Everything else is animal food! My roommate hates bugs...and of course at least half of the freezer is bugs. I have a very patient roommate.  Some of the stuff is for the hermit crabs, plus occasionally whole prey for Charis, but most of it's for Miss Bindi. I wish I could find a better way to organize, but I like keeping the different proteins, insects, etc. separate for Bindi because I think it's better enrichment & better for her teeth to get different whole insects each day rather than a chopped up mix (which I'm considering doing for Pancake). I may end up combining her fruit & veggies though...I'm not sure yet.

I also added a whiteboard to the freezer door so I can keep better track of what I have on hand. Just listing the "extras" I have, not what containers I'm currently using on a regular basis, since those are easy enough to glance at & check amounts. This should help me keep on top of ordering better so I don't run out of things as much. Only happened a couple times, but I get annoyed with myself easily!


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Oh Bindi, that's gross! Why the head, sweetie!? Ew!

My freezer looks exactly like that. I tried to start with premade meals only in the door racks out of the way, but now I have rats stashed everywhere because I bought bulk at the last show, fish food free floating around in there somewhere, Brox's veggies, Rocket's meals, Finn's meals, and any ingredients I want to keep longer, plus the occasional bone for Oz. The boyfriend has to ask if we have room for pizzas when we go grocery shopping, and my answer is usually no. :lol:

The whiteboard is genius. I have one at my parents' place but I keep forgetting to grab it (or filling the small sports car right full of other stuff... You should have seen me stuffing the new 30 gallon tank in there!) but it'd be great to have. Right now I keep a big list on my phone which sort of works, but I forget to check it sometimes. One day I'll grab that dang whiteboard!


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Ashley, tip for a white board.... stick a piece of paper inside a document protector, you have a dry erase board. I have around 5 attached to the fridge for various purposes.


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Ooh clever! Thanks!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yeah, my roommate has (half-jokingly) grumbled at me before about how "we need room for people food too!!" when trying to stuff things into the freezer. :lol: We gave up on room for pizzas long ago...sigh. At least bags of pizza rolls fit?  

Thanks for the tip, Two, that's a good idea! I may do that for a human grocery list at some point. 

So I think I've decided on a change for Bindi's menu - I'm going to combine the fruit & veggies. I bought a bag of frozen mixed berries tonight & I have bananas. So all are going to get mixed in with the veggie chop I'm making tomorrow. That'll cut down on number of containers in the freezer, and I'm hoping maybe Bindi will be more likely to eat the berries? We'll see. :roll: I'll be using the mix to add in to Pancake's food too.

And speaking of Pancake...I think I might follow your example, Ashley! I'm considering starting to make her food because she really likes all of the meat grinds I give Bindi, and she'll eat the fruit as well. The veggies she'll kind of eat mixed in with the rest of her food. And she's so picky on insects that that's what's really making me hesitate on switching her to raw. So I think I may start doing a chopped insect mix (yeah, GROSS), mix it in with the meat grinds along with the veggie & fruit mix (in the same ratios as what Bindi's getting) and see what happens. I'll probably start with a small amount of a random mix, just to experiment & see what she does. If she'll go for it, I think I'll probably do two mixes - two meat proteins in each, and then split the insects I have in half between the two. Then I can alternate by day. We'll see! I'll let you guys know how it goes whenever I finally get around to trying it.


----------



## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

I really admire you guys, I love Ichiro but there is no way I would provide a raw diet, I just can't!!!


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Ooh that's so exciting for Pancake! I hope it works out for her too!

My fruits, veggies, and smushed up bugs all go in the same container as a base for Finn, Rocket, and Brox. Then I add extra goodies to customize the diet to the right protein/fat/fiber contents for each of them. It takes up quite a bit less room and then I just stash smaller amounts of the additives and supplements. I'm going to offer some to the quail tomorrow and see what she thinks too. Button quail nutrition is about as unknown as hedgehog nutrition :roll:.


----------



## hedgiequeen (Jan 28, 2017)

What does raw diet mean?


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

hedgiequeen said:


> What does raw diet mean?


The answer is right in this very thread.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

That's a good way to do it! I figure Pancake's will be easier to store because I can freeze her mixes in ice cube molds & then store in gallon bags instead of 100 different containers. I may work out a way to cut down on containers for Bindi too...But probably not since I'd rather keep meat & insects separate for her! Oh well, at least it works out well enough for now. I'm still holding onto some hope that our next apartment place might allow a small chest freezer or something that I can use for animal food instead. Probably not likely, but we'll see.

Let us know what the quail thinks of the extra treats!


----------



## hedgiequeen (Jan 28, 2017)

twobytwopets said:


> The answer is right in this very thread.


It says she doing a raw diet but was it a raw diet does it just mean frozen food


----------



## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

hedgiequeen said:


> twobytwopets said:
> 
> 
> > The answer is right in this very thread.
> ...


If you read the thread you'll get your answer. In the real world people are not going to give you the answers as you go, you need to do research and read a lot to learn.


----------



## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

If you read the whole, thread from beginning to end it says exactly what she is feeding and that explains what a raw diet is.


----------



## hedgiequeen (Jan 28, 2017)

I read all of it and know i understand thanks kelsey for sharing all this information it is very useful


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Presenting Pancake's new food mix...hopefully. Trust me, it smells at least as bad as it looks. :lol: I put about 120g of insects through my food processor tonight and GROSS. The mix is roughly the same proportions as Bindi's diet - 40% insects (9 different ones in this for now), 30% meat grind (chicken), and 30% fruit/veg mix (20 veg, 10 fruit). She got 5g of this tonight mixed in with 25g of her wet food, so waiting to see what she thinks. I gave a spoonful to the hermit crabs too, to see if they like it. Hopefully someone does, at least!


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Kelsey, that looks gross and I have an insanely strong stomach. If none of the critters eat that, I'd suggest adding blindfolds into the mix.


----------



## Chai (Feb 8, 2017)

Chai the APH will be moving in with us in two weeks time (!!!EEEE!!!) at 8 weeks old. 

I'm already a raw/species appropriate diet convert and I have the privilege of being able to provide this diet for my pets, our three cats are fed raw. I was surprised that APH diets encouraged in the UK had such a focus on cat biscuits, and delighted when I met someone else in the UK who is experimenting with an insect-focused diet. I'm about to explode with JOY now I've found your raw-journey thread! 

I'm looking for advice (on your thread, I hope you don't mind!) as a newbie owner... while Chai is settling in we're planning on introducing her to different kinds of insect (pre killed and stunned) with the hope she won't become afraid of her prey as an adult. 

As for switching her diet to raw, while we'll do it gradually, is there any reading or advice on how the diet is modified for youngsters compared to adults? I've seen threads by people talking about having raw as a requirement but not detailed menus like what you've given.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Honestly, I don't know of any research or really much of anything on raw diets for hedgehogs, or even much on general nutrition/diet for hedgehogs other than a basic outline of what they'll eat in the wild + the cat food guidelines for captivity.

Taking a stab at it from what we do for young hedgehogs in general & my general animal nutrition...

- I would probably make sure you have a slightly higher fat diet for a baby, higher fat kibble is generally recommended/okay for young hedgehogs (up until 6 months, unless their weight indicates adjustment before or after that). You could do that with just fattier insects more often (mealworms, waxworms, dubia roaches, maggots), or you could choose fattier meats if you're including meat like me (duck, turkey, beef, pork). I wouldn't go too overboard with it, you'll want to make sure you can adjust the diet to a lower fat one if/when necessary. I'm currently working on fiddling with Bindi's diet as she's gained some weight recently.

- Definitely be sure the calcium is included - I've been dusting Bindi's insects 3x/week & it's been fine. But if you have a raw-friendly vet, maybe see what they recommend, or else I would plan on doing bloodwork at least once between your switch away from kibble & 6 months, plus again at 6 months. Babies have a higher calcium need than adults, to support growing bones & bodies. I have a sleeping hedgie on my lap right now, but I can check my wildlife rehab manual when I have a chance - I remember it mentioning more specific numbers for juveniles vs. adults for calcium needs.

- I can't recall if I've mentioned this anywhere in this thread or in the raw sticky, but personally I'd make sure you include oily fish in the diet, such as salmon, sardine, herring, etc. They're a good source of omega-3s (which you might already know with raw feeding your kitties), & also vitamin D. That might be another to ask your vet about in regards to a young hedgehog - I'm not sure if young animal needs are higher than adults, but considering it's essential for calcium use, it'd be good to double check. I have a second calcium powder with added VitD that I use once a week or so for Bindi, but I'm not too worried about it since she gets salmon 1-2x/week.

- One thing that's frequently mentioned with puppies & kittens in my raw feeding group on FB (mentioned below) is the importance of balancing daily (whereas adults can have balance over time). So that might be another thing to keep in mind as you're introducing her diet. Make sure insects are dusted, and make sure she's eating a good variety of things before you try to completely take out kibble or wet food.

Those are the main things I can think of. You might ask your vet if there are any other important nutrients that are critical to keep in mind for young animals.

Gradual is a good idea, and I would make sure your hedgehog is willing to eat a good variety of insects. They eat dozens, if not hundreds, of different types of insects/invertebrates in the wild, and we just can't copy that. So I feel it's best to give as many as we can along with the added whole meat grinds & fruits & veggies, to ensure that everything is provided. If Chai turns out to be picky, it might be worth trying to chop the insects up in a food processor to mix with a raw meat grind, like I'm trying for Pancake.

Good luck! Please feel free to start a thread once you have Chai home & start working with her diet. I'd love to hear how it goes for you! 

(Oh, and if you like Facebook groups, I'm in this one & have a file that's basically the same as the Raw sticky on here - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1612246702364265/ We have a few other hedgie owners in the group. The admins are very knowledgeable about raw feeding in general & may have some advice for you in regards to young animals.)


----------



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

You've got some reading ahead of you. Make sure to go through this thread, and you can also take a look at:
This guide, this one on insects, this one on raw diets, these spreadsheets with food stats, this diet thread, and this diet thread. That should get you started!

You're also perfectly welcome to start your own thread in the diet section! Let us know if you have any questions!


----------



## Chai (Feb 8, 2017)

Thank you for the links. I'm actually way ahead of you and I've already read the sticky guides but thank you for the two diet threads I hadn't read!  I will join the facebook group, though - Princess is getting old and I don't have access to a consistent raw-friendly local vet. 

I've been warned that the UK is behind the US when it comes to hedgehog care, and this seems to be accurate. I have access to a good medical vet that a nearby breeder uses but my local vet can be hit and miss depending on who is on as to whether they'll ask me to just feed biscuits. Hopefully they can take routine blood from a hedgehog, she'll go to visit them shortly after arriving so they can met her.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I hope the group will prove to be helpful for you!  And I also hope that your vets will be open-minded. Mine hasn't had an issue with being willing to take blood, but I'm lucky because they're pretty open to raw feeding (though when I was taking my dog in, they made it clear that they prefer commercial raw to PMR). The only reason I can think of that they might be reluctant is the need to anesthesize them lightly in order to draw blood, but hopefully they'll still be willing. Good luck & keep us updated!


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Been awhile since I've shared a picture of Bindi's meals on here, and I took a picture of all the small critter meals tonight, so thought I'd post it.










Bindi's got the two bowls on the left - a rat pinky, a hornworm, dubia roaches, mealworm pupae, crickets, fruit/veggie mix, and phoenix worms. I'm half expecting her to leave the head again - these pinkies are huge, so I'm wondering if she's having trouble managing the skull, which is fair.

The top right bowl is Pancake's gross soup! 2/3 wet dog food, 1/3 raw mix, plus a bit of warm water. She's still finishing her whole bowl with this ratio so far, so I may increase the raw mix another gram or two soon. I was late with food tonight, so she was already out by her placemat & waiting. :lol:

And the bottom right bowl is for the hermit crabs, with a pinky rat (split in half while trying to get the last two apart...gross...), parsnip, carrot, and strawberry.


----------



## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Not sure I'd be able to handle "ripping" a pinky in half. And from someone that deals with farm chickens and rabbits, that's saying a lot. 
Does Bindi eat mice heads? I'm sure it tastes different "up there" and if she avoided all heads that might explain it. Or, if it's just those rat pinkies she avoids, might just take too much effort.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

It was frozen and I have a strong stomach from working at Wildside. But yeah, it was pretty gross! :lol: And nope, she eats all of the mouse pinkies, and that was the first & only (so far) time that she'd left a rat pinky head. I don't see anything left from this one today, but I have to clean her cage later, so I'll wait & see. I'm kind of laughing because she's so weird. I went a little heavy on the insects last night, so it was really more food than she usually gets, but shrugged it off as a "treat" night. Well, Bindi agreed - she got full & didn't finish everything. :lol: Pancake would've just kept going!


----------



## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

I'm a masoquist!!!


----------



## Charlie4591 (Jan 6, 2017)

This thread has been super helpful! I'm loving the photos of the meals all laid out, I've genuinely found it really inspirational .


----------



## jamandbiscuits16 (Feb 5, 2015)

Quick question! I'm wanting to get my little guy started on raw, but am super hesitant because of cost. What would you say is the average cost for your monthly meal plans for Bindi? It seems like you can make a little go a long way!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

It's definitely a fair bit more expensive than feeding kibble or even wet food. But that partly depends on where you buy things from, whether you decide to breed any insects, and what ratios you're using. It's difficult to figure out cost per month, honestly, because I just order things when I need them and haven't really kept track well enough to figure out how long things last. The only note I have down from estimating my monthly bills says $85/month, but I don't know how correct that is. My insect orders are typically somewhere between $100-150. These are my Rainbowmealworms orders since last May, the first order since Bindi was 100% on her raw diet: 

May 2016 - $70
Aug 2016 - $130
Aug 2016 - $95
Oct 2016 - $110
Nov 2016 - $150
Jan 2017 - $200
Feb 2017 - $150

I was ordering some of the insects (mostly dubias) from another site for a while there, so that factors into some of the cheaper orders. The last three are orders that included all of her insects except for earthworms (local pet store), grasshoppers, and snails (both canned, bought on Amazon). 

The meat grinds definitely go a long way though, and I don't have to order those much at all. I've ordered twice since she went 100% raw - June 2016 ($130) and Nov 2016 ($155). The first one was just Bindi food, the second one had some extras for my cat & snake. The orders also included whole prey though, which are very expensive, but also last her a long time as she only gets whole prey once a week. I'm not going to need to order more meat grinds for her anytime soon as I have plenty on hand (and may try to offer some to my cat just because I don't want them to be TOO old before they get used). 

Sorry it's not a very direct answer! I don't pay as much attention as I probably should. 

Edit: Another factor in the last three insect orders: A bunch got used for making a raw mix for Pancake, so I had to buy more than usual. Still haven't decided if I'm going to try to really switch Pancake over or leave her be with her wet food since she's doing fine on it. I really don't want to make gross bug paste on a regular basis. :lol:


----------



## jamandbiscuits16 (Feb 5, 2015)

Lilysmommy said:


> It's definitely a fair bit more expensive than feeding kibble or even wet food. But that partly depends on where you buy things from, whether you decide to breed any insects, and what ratios you're using. It's difficult to figure out cost per month, honestly, because I just order things when I need them and haven't really kept track well enough to figure out how long things last. The only note I have down from estimating my monthly bills says $85/month, but I don't know how correct that is. My insect orders are typically somewhere between $100-150. These are my Rainbowmealworms orders since last May, the first order since Bindi was 100% on her raw diet:
> 
> May 2016 - $70
> Aug 2016 - $130
> ...


PHEW. I definitely feel like I could save money by making my own grinds. My girlfriend does that for her cats. As a full-time student, I've gotta weigh costs/time usage very carefully.

I guess my first step is just getting him to like things. He threw a fit about having to eat mealworms out of a bowl and normally gobbles them right up off any other flat surface...UGH!

Still trying to figure all the percentages out. I feel a bit overwhelmed but feel like it's worth it in the end!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

So Bindi's been putting on too much weight and is a little pudge now. I'm also starting to get burnt out on having everything separated & dealing with so many containers & whatnot. So...a diet rework is currently in progress, both for what she's getting, possibly the amount of food, and how I'm storing & presenting it.

I'm currently trying to figure out what I'd like to do with insects - some are going to go into a coarse chopped mix. I think I want to keep some out for individual treats & food enrichment. I think that may be dubias and superworms as they're relatively painless to store and they don't thaw out super gross (also less gross clean up if she doesn't find them in a hiding spot). I'm also going to keep waxworms separate & move those to a "treat only" thing once a week or so. Everything else - crickets, maggots, hornworms, snails, grasshoppers, earthworms, mealworms, mw aliens, & mw beetles - will go into the insect mix. I'm going to package it weirdly right now for an experimental phase while I see if she'll eat it, then once I can order some regular ice cube trays, I'll freeze it in daily chunks & keep them in a plastic bag. I _think_ this will cut down on the storage room her insects take up in the freezer.

I think I'm also going to mix all of her meat grinds up together - currently still chicken, rabbit, duck, and salmon - to get every night. I may also change how I currently package & store them because I think I'm going to add her fruit/veg mix into the meat, which will probably make it too bulky to fit in the little cube trays I currently use. Perhaps I'll use the bigger ice cube trays for those as well? Or just make little blobs/patties on a plate & freeze them that way, then store in bag.

So if this all works out well, her meals will change from getting out meat cubes, 3-4 different types of insects + chipping out frozen veg mix to grabbing a meat/veg patty, grabbing an insect cube, and then grabbing some whole insects for enrichment items or treats. It'll look less pretty, but it sounds way easier to manage. She'll still get whole prey on the weekends as well, in place of the meat mix.

The other benefit of doing it this way is it'll be easier to try & introduce Pancake to the diet again, which I'd like to do. Though I'll have to try & figure out the costs for having both of them on the diet as money is a little tight right now. She's doing fine on her wet food, so I may leave well enough alone for now.

I'll probably post some pictures once I get the method all switched over & whatnot.


----------

