# need medical advice EXPERINECED OWNERS ONLY, PLEASE!



## zoologist (Sep 2, 2008)

I took cloud to the vet the other day. The diagnosis isn't good.

Cloud's white blood cell count is way above what it should be where as his red blood cell count is very low. he pees and dirnks way too much for normal, so the doctor is suspecting that it is kidney disease. Cloud also has very bad rotted teeth with very little gums. The main reason i took him in was because of the large glof ball sized lump on his right hind hip. It is getting worse and has now extended down to his leg and foot. The doctor suspects it is either a very very bad infection or cancer. He has given me strong anitbiotics and pain meds to administer to cloud for the next two weeks. thet vet is wanting to do a biopsy.

Now here is my problem. I am at my financial limit. In the last 6 months i have spend over $1100 on this little guy with this last vet visit costing me $635. I now have no rent for next months, not that i'm complaining, just that i am at my wits end. I cannot afford to the biospy and i just feel like a horrible person. i strongly believe that you should not buy a pet if you cannot take it to the vet. i feel like i have failed Cloud because it is not his fault, what i need to know is whether or not to put him down now before it gets too bad or keep him on the meds until i feel it is right for him to go. there is no other option.
i realize i'm going to get crisized for my decsion but realize that whatever you choose to say to me i've already said to myself in a much meaner way.

thanks for the advice.


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## Aleshea (Feb 13, 2009)

You are a great person not a lot of people would spend that much to make their Hedgie better. Its hard to let go but their is only so much you can do. just let him know that you love him and you are not going to let him suffer anymore. Again do be hard on yourself you are a good hedgie daddy!


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## azyrios (Feb 2, 2009)

I am not an experienced owner, but i am posting anyways. Sorry.

I am very sorry for Cloud's condition. It seems like from all your posts that you love him dearly. From what i have read you have done everything you could to try and help him, and exhausted all resources for him. You are one of the few owners who would give up their housing for their pet, and that i believe is admiral. 

Whatever your choice is i believe you and cloud have worked as hard as you could and that it will be the best decision for both of you.

Just as a side note: I had a dog named Tucker. Tucker was 16 years old and i knew him my whole life. He always had a bad hip. One day tucker went down to the lake by the break wall and stood there knee high in the water. He never went up to his stomach. He stood there for an hour looking at the lake. When he finally saw me watching him, he just looked up at me. I went down to the shore and picked him up and carried him to the Truck. He sat in the truck and hung his head out the window like he did when he was a puppy. When we got to the vet he looked at me again, licked my hand and we walked in. When i got to the room, and she put tucker to sleep he licked my hand and looked at me until he fell asleep. After she injected the euthenization chemical into him he suddenly awoke, licked my face as i cried and then passed.

Somehow i knew from him standing there that it was his time to go, and no one can tell you when that time is better than yourself.

I wish you good luck on whatever you choose, and i am sure cloud loves you no matter what and that he knows you want to help him as best as you can.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

The hardest thing to ever do is let go. You have done all that you can, and you have to look at whether or not it would be better to just let him go. 

Another story.....
Back when we first came to Can, we got a dog when I was 5. She was the greatest family dog ever, and an overprotective mother to us all. When she was 10, she'd been battling cancer. She's had multiple surgeries to remove the lumps, but they just keep coming back. WE(the humans) were unable to let go and did all that we could, and had the vets remove the lumps as we found them. She still continuously grew weaker, and in the end, she couldn't keep going. She passed away at night, on the floor, while my sister slept on the couch to watch her.

Looking back at it, we wonder if it would've been better NOT to have put her through all the surgeries. So have just made her life as comfortable and happy as possible, and take her to the vets when it's time. If they are still younger and healthy, then yes, do all you can. But there has to be a point where you just have to stop, make them comfortable, and just wait it out till it's time to take that last trip to the vets. 

Now, to our cat, we've had her when my dog was about a year old. She was 14 when she too developed cancer lumps. This time, we drew the line and said she was too old to have surgery to remove the lumps. We made her as comfortable as we could, whatever food she wanted, she had her bowl of tuna almost every night. Table scraps? they were hers if she wanted them. And near the end, bought her lots of KMR for her as well. When it was time, we took her to the vets. 

No matter what choice you make, it will be from your heart. It's always a tough decision. Just know that we're all here for you as well. *hugs*


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

High white blood cells makes me worry that there is a bad infection, but the anemia is also frightening.

Has doc offered to do a fine needle aspirate of the lump on his leg? A FNA is where they insert a needle and withdraw some of the contents of the lump. The vet then can look at it under a microscope to get an idea if it is pus filled or something else. Of course to get a definite answer a pathology needs to be run (I have sent in FNA slides for pathologies before), but it at least would tell you right away if it is an infection if it is pus filled.... These are often cheaper as the vet shouldn't need knock your hedgehog out and is less invasive than a biopsy (the main reason I like them).

As to euthanasia. I would give him a chance. If he is obviously in pain and you have exhausted your options, then euthanasia is a kind way to let him be pain free. 

Ask doc about doing an FNA though. He may find that the sample is solid and full of abnormal cells. If that is the case, its likely cancer and your approach to his care will change. It could be that you are dealing with side effects of a cancerous tumor on his leg (infection, etc), we will keep our quills crossed here that the antibiotics work and he is cancer free.

How old is Cloud? You probably have said but I don't remember.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I agree with Kalandra on having a fine needle aspiration on the lump to find out what it is. Our Tessie who we lost recently had a huge very fast growing what we thought to be mammary tumour just above her front leg. My vet felt it was a lymph node that was either swollen due to infection or was cancerous. When we discovered the oral tumour, we euthanized her and didn't go any further with testing the lymph node. 
Not only can excessive thirst be caused by kidney disease it can also be caused by diabetes. 

It's unfortunate that you have spent so much money already without a diagnoses but sadly that seems to happen all too often. Nobody has unlimited amounts of money to spend trying to cure our animals and nobody can judge you for having spent the amount you have. You have done more than most people would. Those who get criticized are those who say they can't even afford the initial vet visit. 

Is he still eating and having quality of life? If so, then keep him on the meds and pray they will help.


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## zoologist (Sep 2, 2008)

Thank you all for your kind words and hopes for the best, i will admit that y'all made me a bit teary eyed. you're an amazing group of people.
kalandra the vet did pull out cells from cloud's tumor. here are the results in medical terms. 'equal number of inflammatory cells and spindle cells in this sample. this may be chronic active inflammation with fibrosis or granulation tissues but primarily a spindle tumor.' 
he is eating and drinking and still very active. i just dont want him to be in pain and not notice :/


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## zoologist (Sep 2, 2008)

Well, on a good note (hehehe) the vet says that Cloud is the nicest, friendliest hedgehog that he's ever met. He said he is so friendly that he doesn't even know he is a hedgehog! He says Cloud is much like a cat, but cooler. It made me smile and makes me want to keep fighting for the little guy


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Did doc send that fna off to have a pathology? Are those his responses to the sample or a pathologists? I'm really hoping that the first part f the results (chronic inflammation) is correct and it is NOT a spindle cell tumour. I don't know if I should share this as it may upset and I don't want to discourage you, that's not my goal. But you sound like you wanted information to make decisions from, and I have recent experience with spindle cell tumours. We dealt with a spindle cell sarcoma last year and visited with specialists trying to save Riley. I figure if I spent the money on specialists I might as well share the information with others. Riley was only 1 year 1 week when his cancer first appeared. Here is what I understand to be the habits of spindle cell sarcomas.

Spindle cells are a very primitive cell form, basically it is a cell that no longer looks like the original cell that it came from. We were told that these often have a high rate of reoccurance at the original tumour site. My understanding is they have a habit of growing fast if they are cut, Problem with removing them is that they also have a habit of sending out tiny tendrils of cells that will grow. Which is what happened with Riley, we removed the one from his eyelid, doc thought he got it all, but it came back later in his neck. 

They also don't react well to many treatments. Chemo does little good, cutting can cause them to regrow and larger if you don't get it all (one of the oncologists noted that he removed one once and before the stitches came out it had regrown). Radiation was the option given to me and at a price tag of over $9000 (yes 3 zeros) with little guarantee it would work, it wasn't a viable option.

We did add prednisone late in Riley's treatment to help with inflammation being caused by the cancer. 

Riley lived with his cancer for 8 months after its initial symptom appeared. He ran on his wheel and ate well up until the end. He had a large tumour which grew off of his neck, but it barely slowed him down. We euthanised him when it took a massive growing spurt and started causing breathing problems.

I will say keep fighting. If it is chronic inflammation maybe doc can fix it (has he tried prednisone yet?). If not, and it turns out to be cancer, as long as Cloud is eating and seems happy, enjoy the time you have with him, but don't fear criticism if you need to euthanise him. It can be the kindest and hardest thing we will ever have to do for our quill kids.


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## zoologist (Sep 2, 2008)

thanks for the input, Kalandra. Those are the pathologist's words, not my docs. i took it straight from the lab results.
When the vet spoke of removing the tumor he said it is in a difficult spot which i interperated to him saying it's not a good idea and it wouldn't work.
I honestly cannot spend anymore to get a biopsy done. I came home today (to gainesville) to find mail from my bank about my account being overdrawn. Goody. 
Since we won't figure out if Cloud has cancer or a bad infection (unless the antibiotics start to work), i'm just going to keep him happy as long as i can.
He still waddles nightly, he'd prolly run too if i gave him his wheel back (we were trying to put weight on him so i took his wheel away) His appetite is better than ever (the vet wanted me to syringe him wet food. Pffft, Cloud is eating amazingly on his own) and other than drinking more than he should he doesn't seem to have difficultly with anything.

i am meeting with my vet in Gainesville for a consultation and see what he thinks but i'm pretty sure i've made up my mind to let Cloud ride out what little life he has left in luxury. I'll spoil him the best i can, and we will be taking many trips to the beach this summer!

thank you all for your help. i really do appreciate it  i'll keep everyone updated as the days go on.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

We will keep our quills crossed here that the antibiotic does something. Otherwise, hopefully he will have many days left that are happy and pain free. It felt so very wrong when we stopped looking for ways to cure Riley. Even after I thought I had come to terms that it was the right decision I kept coming back with whatifs. If you want to talk about anything, I'm happy to listen, even if it is just for a shoulder to lean on.


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## zoologist (Sep 2, 2008)

> it felt so very wrong when we stopped looking for ways to cure Riley.


That is how i am feeling right now. If the antibiotics don't do a darned thing i may have a way of getting a biopsy done.

I am part of a small Florida based rat forum. If a member is having trouble financially the other members usually rush to thier aid. I explained what was going on with Cloud and that i was finanically screwed and i got three seperate PMs from people asking me how much the biopsy was and if i took paypal. In the past i've helped a few members on that board (One member lost her grand daughters xmas presents after someone broke in and stole a lot of stuff so i donated all of my unused webkinz to her, about ten. another time i donated money to someone's charity) and it just goes to show that Karma can help you out once in a while.

I'll keep y'all posted  hopefully the antibiotics work and we wont need the biopsy.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Sound like your rat forum is a great group of people. 

Often with infections antibiotic alone is not enough. The infection needs to be cleaned out surgically combined with antibiotic.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies (Sep 4, 2008)

Such a sad situation and I'm sorry that you're having to go through this. You have definitely spent much more than the average person would have spent on a hedgehog or any animal for that matter. We've been in similar situations twice in the past....once with cat that we spent $2000 on, and the other was our dog that we spent nearly $3000 on. We didn't have the money at the time, so we used our credit cards and then stayed home for months eating mac-n-cheese and beanie weenies for supper. But neither of these situations were similar to Cloud, in the respect that it sounds like Cloud is nearing the end of the Rainbow Bridge. In this case, I believe that you should never let an animal suffer. I'd keep him on the antibiotics and do your best to keep him comfortable for as long as you can. But don't question yourself anymore, as you have done your best and the best that you could afford to do. It's possible that spending more money still would not save him. Feel proud that you've given the little one a good home and a good life! When the time comes, keep you head held high and know that he will no longer be suffering as he crosses the Rainbow Bridge. 

Best wishes and hugs from all of us a Pixie's Exotic Hedgies!


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