# Right amount of food?



## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Hi,

I posted a while ago about my hedgehogs diet as she could do with loosing a little weight and needed advice on how much she should be having.

After taking all the advice and guidance on board she eats the following:

Sun - 10g kibble, 5g mince, 10 insects, no worms
Mon - 10g kibble, 11 insects, 4 meal worms
Tue - 10g kibble, 5g mince, 5g veg, 10 insects
Wed - 10g Kibble, 11 insects, 4 wax worms
Thur - 10g kibble, 5 mince, 10 insects
Fri - 10g kibble, 13 insects, 2 morio worms
Sat - 10g kibble, 5g fruit, 15 insects 

She eats it all and her weight is stable but not coming down. However I think she may still be hungry. She eats all her kibble by about 10pm so I have had to start putting it in in two half’s so she has some for over night and she has also started to get up during the day for a nibble as well.

Does this mean she isn’t getting enough? So I need to tweet the menu to make it more filling?

All advice would be appreciated, thanks


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

What insects are using?
What mix of biscuit do you use and what's the fat percentage like?

I cant remember but was she eating everything you gave her before you changed it too?

And how active is she?


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

What kibble brands are you feeding; ingredients of the kibble would be useful. As would a photo of the hedgehog, so we can see it's body condition and how much (if much) it is overweight. 

An overweight hog is a hedgehog who is eating too many calories for their energy level. So if she is genuinely overweight, she does not need more food - and arguably needs less of it. If she is still eating, even when she is evidently meeting her caloric need, she is a) boredom eating, b) eating just because it is there, or c) her food is too high in carbs, and not enough animal protein.

We really need an ingredients list for every kibble included in her diet, in addition to knowing her activity level - is she a runner? on the lazier side? maybe somewhere in the middle?

Wet food is also a really great way to get animals to lose weight; it's high in moisture, so they feel fuller faster, and lower in calorie than kibble (and hedgehogs have slow metabolisms) - i would recommend switching to a wet diet, if all else fails to help her lose weight.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Thank you for your replies. Busy day at work so haven’t been able to get back to you both with the answers to you questions.

She is on a 50/50 mix of James well beloved house cat (duck) and James well beloved light (turkey). I believe that makes total fat 12.5, protein 32.5.

I struggle to get her to try other foods, the only one I found she will eat is applaus kitten but that’s really high in fat. I haven’t had success with wet cat food.

The insect alternate between a combination of Black crickets and roaches one day and silent crickets and locusts the next.

The vet suggested on last visit she should loose weight but I think she will always be chunky. She is hoovering around 575g at present.

She runs anywhere from 0.01 mile to 2.5 miles a night, weekly total is between 4-7 miles. She is definitely on the lazier side.

She has a dig box in viv, doesn’t play with her toys (I keep trying) and she has a sand bath twice a week which she loves.

I have hopefully attached pictures of food ingredients and Holly herself, if it doesn’t work I’ll try again when I finish.

I hope that answers all questions, my phone won’t show previous replies when writing so can’t see if I missed one!


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Her food is too high in carbs. Theres little available (scientifically speaking) information on hedgehog diets, but from the little we do have we know that theyre opportunistic omnivores who have a high percentage of animal protein in their diet; with the majority of plant based material being consumed through the animals they eat. With that information, we can say that they need a diet high in animal protein, and lower in carbs - the James well beloved mix you're feeding only lists a minimum 27.5% animal protein, when this should be a minimum of 60% (though some prefer 70-80%) and the 2nd and 3rd ingredients are rice, which likely make up the bulk of that food combined. What happens when you feed an animal who does not naturally consume a high carb diet a ton of carbs, is that all that excess carbohydrates are stored as fat.

I would switch kibbles. I know you mentioned she can be picky, but we need to try again if you want better control over her weight. The james wellbeloved can be included as *part* of her new kibble mix (although not the greatest food, its useful with dropping protein levels of other kibbles) but the bulk of her diet needs to be made up of a high quality, 60% *minimum* animal protein kibble if she hates wet food. Brands I would recommend looking into are Applaws, Canagan, Orijen, Acana, AATU, Carnilove, and Vets Kitchen to name a few.

I know fat percentages often install fear into hedgehog owners. But carbohydrate/quality ingredient content should be of equal - if not higher - importance. Foods that make up the bulk of her diet should be free of rice and maize, and ideally <20% potato. A food higher in fat also means she needs less kibble (as fat is a great provider of energy and calories); for a hedgehog on the lazier side, she should be eating closer to 1 teaspoon (especially when she's getting extras) of a kibble that is 15-20% fat.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Honestly I would keep the james well beloved light turkey, and mix it with something like carnilove their duck and turkey is pretty good, and theres a vets kitchen chicken (that emc showed me) if you do a mix of these you can still keep the fat low but its also got less carbs.
Personally for a lazy hedgehog like yours I wouldnt use a fat content higher than 14% especially if they eat everything given.

I would also decrease some of the extras given, rather than giving 5g meat AND 5g veg I would do 4g meat and 2g veg. Then the total food is only 16g that night with the 11 insects. It isnt as much food this way.
Or if you cut the biscuit down to 6-7g of biscuit then do 5g meat and 3g veg plus the 11 insects. This would work better.

As Emc said though for such a lazy hedgehog (whos even lazier than my Holly) should only eat around 6g of biscuit (1 teaspoon)


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Thank you, that’s really useful and helpful info. I have to say I feel very out of my depth whenever I delve in to the analytical side of food.

I already have a mix made up and would prefer not to waste to so I’m thinking a plan of action could be:

Start adding in a new kibble now until it’s maybe 50% of the mix then start reducing the JWB housecat until it out of the mix, which would potentially give me a 50/50 mix of the JWB light and new kibble then from here I can increase the new kibble and reduce the JWB further if needed? Possibly even introduce a 3rd kibble.

I’m thinking from here I can then reduce how much kibble is being given (I don’t want to suddenly reduce it whilst changing the taste and cause a tantrum) and in between all that reduce the extras as suggested by Ria.

Is this a good plan?

I will start with Applaws as the new kibble, as she has taken to it in the past. She had the applaws kitten but would the adult or senior be a better option? Carnilove is one we have tried and she ate around it, which leaves me with the rest of Suggested foods available if she won’t take to the applaws.

If I try introducing wet food how much should I give and how often?

I am willing to try everything even if Holly isn’t so willing! 

Thank you again for your help.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

The applaws senior chicken is still 80% chicken and 20% other stuff like the kitten one, the only real difference I can see is the protein of the senior is 37% and fat is 17% where the kitten one 38% protein and 20% fat. Its not a huge difference but it the senior one might be better fat wise. But its up to you.

Your plan is great, change the food you want to first keeping the total mix 50/50
Then start reducing the amount of total food you give balancing the two foods but making the mix more one than the other (I can help you work out fat and protein if you want I have a spreadsheet that will work it out for me)
After about a week of changing the amount of biscuit you give reduce the amount of extras

When I give wet food I only give Holly about 10-15g depending on the wet food I use, the fat and protein of the wet food. I only give it once every other week. But I just take a bit out of my dogs wet food.

You could get a smell wet cat food and do 1/4 or 1/2 over 2 consecutive days. You could do this weekly or every other week if you wanted. Depends what works best for you.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Your current mix doesn't have to go to waste; we can fix her diet to make it more appropriate while using up whatever food you still have left.

Even if we start simply by just adding in one new kibble - I'm using Applaws senior chicken for this, because it has the lowest fat content out of the applaws mixes while also having high animal protein, but if you have a different preference we can see if its workable;

Applaws senior chicken is 37% protein, 20% fat and has a 80% animal protein content. 
Her current mx of James wellbeloved is 32.5% protein, 12.5% fat.

You have a couple of options here, depending on what fat % you're comfortable with. I'm going to run through a couple options, just to show you some possibilities you have here with just this one simple change of adding in just one new kibble:

A) 80% applaws + 20% current mix = 36.1% protein, 16.1% fat
B) 70% applaws + 30% current mix = 35.6% protein, 15.6% fat
C) 60% applaws + 40% current mix = 35.2% protein, 15.2% fat.

Now, like I mentioned earlier fat content is not all. We also need to look at animal protein, and we would want her food to be at least 60%. So, if the James wellbeloved has a minimum of ~30% animal protein, and the Applaws has 80%:

A) 80% x 80% + 30% x 20% = (64%) + (6%) = 70% animal protein for option A
B) 80% x 70% + 30% x 30% = (56%) + (9%) = 65% animal protein for option B
C) 80% x 60% + 30% x 40% = (48%) + (12%) = 60% animal protein for option C

All of these options would be suitable (again though, if you want to use a different kibble we can try it - i just used applaws as a quick & appropriate example), and with this simple change in addition to reducing her kibble intake to 5-6g, and perhaps also reducing her add ins a little like Ria mentioned, you should get far more control over Hollys weight.

ETA; As far as wet food goes, my hedgehog (who sits around 360-370g, and runs like the wind) eats anywhere from 20-30g - but she doesn't eat her kibble with this. You can feed it as often as you like once its a complete food you're offering - also beware that some picky hedgehogs get a liking for it, and won't eat anything else - which is only really a problem if you don't personally want to feed them a solely wet diet (although it is 100% appropriate to do so).


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Emc said:


> A) 80% x 80% + 30% x 20% = (64%) + (6%) = 70% animal protein for option A
> B) 80% x 70% + 30% x 30% = (56%) + (9%) = 65% animal protein for option B
> C) 80% x 60% + 30% x 40% = (48%) + (12%) = 60% animal protein for option C


The percentages here where do you get them from for this?


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Ria said:


> The percentages here where do you get them from for this?


The applaws is 80% animal protein, and the james wellbeloved lists a minimum of 27.5% - I said a minimum of 30%, because it lists other animal sources but doesn't list the %, so we dont know for sure, but it is at least 30% (could be slightly higher, but again - they dont list exact %, which is annoying!).

Quick example; If the diet is 80% applaws, and the applaws has 80% animal protein, the applaws portion of the diet is therefore contributing 64% animal protein to the mix (because 80 x 80% = 64%).

Similarly, if the diet is 20% james wellbeloved and the james wellbeloved has a 30% animal protein content, it is therefore contributing 6% animal protein to the mix.

64% + 6% = 70% animal protein in a diet that is 80% applaws + 20% james wellbeloved. Does that make sense?... I usually do a rubbish job at explaining haha.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Yea that makes sense, thank you.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

I am in awe of how quickly you did all that math! I will definitely read it again over the weekend and educate myself.

I’d would be great if I could use up my current mix, so not to waste it.

I don’t really have a preference on the fat content, I just want her to have the healthiest most balanced diet I can give her and get her a little slimmer.

I’m happy to try the senior applaws, I can’t see it tasting much different to the kitten but I’m sure Holly will soon let me know if she doesn’t approve!

I’m thinking as it has the higher animal protein that maybe start with the first option as it might stabilise her appetite (and hopefully mean she does more running as she’s not hungry so much and looking for food all the time).

I’ll get the food and start changing the mix on Sunday and once I have the balance I’ll reduce how much kibble I am giving her etc.

I will have to work out over the weekend how the percentages equate to grams of food and what increments to change it in, so we can get started.

You two have been so helpful, I really appreciate you taking the time to help.

I will definitely report back with progress and I might need a little more help along the way if you wouldn’t mind?


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

If your doing 80/20 keeping it at 10g it would be 8g Applaws and 2g james wellbeloved
Save you some time there working that bit out.

I'll definitely help where I can, and I'd love to know how Holly does on it. I cant see her finding much difference in the senior to the kitten one as there isnt really a difference apart from the fat and protein haha.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

If you want to save time, you dont have to weigh out 8g of Applaws and 2g of James Wellbeloved every time you feed her. You can make a bulk batch of the mix, and it'll still be the same GA. i.e you could make a 500g batch using 400g Applaws + 100g of your current james wellbeloved mix. that is, if you chose the 80% applaws + 20% JWB option.  Likewise, you dont have to weigh out precisely 5-6g every time either. I have both the James wellbeloved and Applaws on hand, so if you do decide to eventually reduce her kibble intake, 1 teaspoon of that mix would be between 5-6g. For a hog of her activity level, 1-1.5 teaspoons should be plenty considering her add ins (kibble closer to 1 teaspoon, IMO). But, fiddle around with amounts and find what works best for you & her. 

I dont mind at all with future questions - and i'd love to hear how Holly is doing in the future.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Working into grams was simple math really I’d engaged my brain.

I will report back in a couple of weeks and let you both know how we are getting on.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

It’s me again!

I’m just making notes on Holly’s new food so I have the info to hand if I need it and I’ve just confused myself.

In the post with the calculations, the first set of examples say option A is 36.1 protein, 16.1 fat but the next calculation says protein is 70%, what is my poor little brain missing?

Also am I right in thinking that when the mix has changed to 80 % applaws and 20% current JWB mix it would mean Protein would be 36.1% and fat 16.1% as in option A?

Sorry for being a dunce!

To update on Holly. I started the applaws last night and she is eating it under duress. She now appears to be running before eating unlike before when she would go straight for the food, still ate it all by morning though.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Option A would be 36.1% protein, and 16.1% fat. The 70% protein note means that 70% of the protein in her kibble is coming from animals; does that make sense?... 

The majority of protein in a hedgehogs diet should be animal based; and it is recommended that at least 60% of it comes from animals - which is why I noted what the animal protein % would be of each option, because its an important factor when choosing a diet.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Thank you that makes sense. It’s what I thought but I’m easily confused.

How to do you the calculation to get the 36.1 out of curiosity please?


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

No bother, it's easy enough:

Applaws senior cat food is 37% protein, and 17% fat. As we want a diet that is 80% applaws, we simply multiply these numbers by 80%. So;

37% x 80% = 29.6% protein from Applaws.
17% x 80% = 13.6% far from applaws.

For the James wellbeloved, you mentioned that the Protein for the mix you have is 32.5% and the fat is 12.5%. As we are using 20% of this mix in our new mix, we multiply these numbers by 20%. So;

32.5% x 20% = 6.5% protein contributed by James Wellbeloved 
12.5% x 20% = 2.5% fat contribrued by James Wellbeloved.

If we add those numbers together;

29.6% + 6.5% = 36.1% protein
13.6% + 2.5% = 16. 1% fat

^ for a mix that is 80% applaws, and 20% of the current james wellbeloved. Hope that clears it up!


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Thank you for explaining that, it makes sense now.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

I thought I’d give an update on Holly’s progress and maybe get some reassurance I am doing the right thing.

We have just entered the second week of food transition so from yesterday I am giving 4g Applaws senior and 6g James Wellbeloved mix. I haven’t made any changes to meat, veg, fruit or insects.

Holly seems to be hungrier than ever and now gets up several times a day looking for food.

She weighed in tonight at 602g. 8g more than last week.

She has probably done 5-6 miles this week, the sensor didn’t work one night so I don’t have accurate figures this week.

I’ve also noticed her pop has become very smelly since the new food and I’m having to clean the wheel twice a day.

Here routine is as follows;

About 6.30am I put in approx 12 kibbles so there is food available throughout the day. It is usually eaten by lunchtime.

About 6.30pm before lights out I put in half the remaining kibble and any fruit or veg she is having that day. This is eaten by 8:30pm and she starts heading to bed so we get her up. All her wheeling is done during this period.

I put the remaining kibble in about 9.30-10pm and insects after having her out. She immediately eats the insects then goes to bed until the early hours, the kibble is eaten by about 4am. She will wheel a very small about over night just to go to the toilet.

Should I stop putting in a few bits of kibble in the morning hoping she stops getting up? Should I give all the kibble in one go and once it’s gone it’s gone? Do I carry on as I am? I really don’t know.

I’m concerned at the weight gain and that there is no progress yet, I’m aware I may need to be a little more patient and that I’m probably over thinking it but I just want her to be happy and healthy!

Is there something else I should be doing?

Sorry for the rant/melt down, I feel like a terrible hog mum tonight.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

My Holly's weight went up a bit before coming down, they just need to adjust to the diet. It will get better once you made more of the changes.

As for the smelly poo that could be from the change I'd give it a week or so to settle. 

I would split the food to half. So you give half in the morning and half in the evening once its gone then its gone. I think for now splitting it will be better for her since you can get her to be active between giving the fruit/veg/meat and the insects and biscuit.

I would also make up a little dig box to make her work for some of the food maybe the meat/fruit/veg will be best to do that.
You could do it with some of the dry food in the evening too if you wanted to keep the way you split giving it.
It just makes them a little more active but using food to do so.

Dont stress because your doing well. And she's not too overweight at the moment! You're actively doing something in good time.
Keep going with the changes perhaps leave the dry food as it is for now and then decrease some of the extras to even it a little. Then go from there.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Keep doing what you're doing; if you want to feed her in portions, feed her in portions. Feeding their kibble in small portions throughout the day is a great method for animals used to eating larger amounts of food, or for those who are food-obsessed and will eat all their food otherwise in one go and act like theyre starving the rest of the day. Whether you feed it in 2, 3 or 4 portions - do what works best for you. 

Dont get too discouraged with a little bit of weight gain at the start. For a 600g hedgehog, 8-10g fluctuation is a drop in the ocean. Weigh her again in 4 weeks; if there is no progress at all, we go back to the drawing board. 

It is far easier to get a hog to gain weight than to get an obese hog to lose it - so dont fret, keep doing what you're doing, and (hopefully!) it will be worth it.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Thank you both. We will stick at it and let you know how we get on.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Hi,

I thought I’d update on how we are going with the diet.

We have just completed the first week of the complete change to the mix, so we are now on 80% Applaws, 20% James Wellbeloved. We are still putting on weight but I am also aware I’m a couple of weeks early on when I was supposed to check back in with progress so we may still be settling in to new food. She is still coming out looking for food during the day although that does seem to be less frequently. However this week her activity has slipped a little and she has done a little less mileage.

Now the food is switched I am on to reducing the extras and kibble she is given and I think I have come up with a plan to do this while making her daily volume of food a little more stable than it currently is as we have some days where I’m offering more food than others. E.g mince or veg then a day with neither.

Currently we are having over a two week period:
140g kibble
30g mince
20g fruit/veg
180 insects

My new idea is to alternate fruit/veg and mince each day but at the same time reducing the amount of each given, so one day 3g mince, the next 2g fruit/veg. By my workings out this will mean a more stable volume of food on a daily basis while at the same time reducing the overall quantity given.

It will look something like this over a two week period:
140g kibble
21g mince
14g fruit/veg
175 insects

This reduces her intake 15g over the two weeks whilst giving her the pretty much the same volume of food each day, I’m also hoping it will make the reduction less noticeable for her.

I then plan on reducing the actual kibble amount once I’ve change the snacks over.

Does this sound like a viable plan? 

Thanks in advance


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Finally after all this time and all your help I am able to say we are loosing weight and have started to use the wheel more.

Holly has done so for the last 3 weeks, I’m so proud. However, how many grams a week are heathy for her to loose? 

Thank you for all your advice.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I missed your other post, but I'm glad your finally making progress!

I was told 20g maximum a week is healthy anything over they are losing too much too fast.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Thank you, I’ll stop worrying we’ve done an about turn and are loosing weight to quickly.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Maybe stop reducing things a few weeks to stable it and then keep doing that every so often so that it doesnt go too fast!


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## y2jdmbfan (Oct 1, 2019)

What does she weigh now?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

She is down to 607g. She put on 4g last week but down 18g this week. She was 644g 5 weeks ago. Obviously I want her to lose some but I want it to be at a healthy rate.

I did wonder if we could play with her food a little and when she is more active give a little more food and reduce when less active. That’s on the assumption the increased activity is a phase.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

The more she looses the more she will likely become more active.

To be honest with my Holly as she lost weight she became more active nut I left her food the same, and its worked well for her anyway.

Not saying it will for you but I would be very careful about increasing food because its not easy to tell when they are going to be more active and less active.


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## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Hi,
I just wanted to post an update on Holly’s diet.

I am over the moon to announce she is below 600g! 580g to be precise.

I can’t thank you enough for spending the time to help me with her diet. I’m sure I’ll be back to pick your brains if progress stalls.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

She's doing well, thats really good.
I'm glad all that help we gave has done you both well.


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