# Is USDA license for Hedgehogs only?



## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

I got a little more information just now on where Lucy was bred from. I got a phone number so I'm debating on whether to call them or not. I really want to know if this breeder is reputable at all and if she's had any hedgies with WHS. The previous owner told me: "I was able to contact the person I bought the hedgies from. She is USDA licensed and certified, due to the other animals she works with she said. She told me she has never had an issue with "wobblers" " 

My question is is that how the USDA license is? I thought licensing was specific for hedgehogs, not "other animals". I want to make sure and know what I'm talking about before I respond to the previous owner and before I contact the breeder.


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

The only thing I know about is the Hedgehog USDA licensing (not sure if its specifically for hedgehogs, i think its for exotic animals). You get a class A liscense to breed (if you have three or more breeding females), a class B liscense to be a dealer , and a class C liscense to exhibit the animals.
(I've been looking into this more because I plan on getting my third breeding girl in october. moxieberry helped me figure stuff out and im sure she can answer this question)


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

Grr, I just tried to call the number I was given and it's disconnected.


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Tym4myself said:


> Grr, I just tried to call the number I was given and it's disconnected.


Oooohh that would make me so mad! I would go into the shop and give them a piece of my mind :evil:


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

I have no idea where or who the breeder is.


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Did he not come with a pedigree and/or IHR #?


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

No, I got Lucy 2 days ago from someone who had bought 2 hedgies, a male and female, and housed them together. I was hoping to get in contact with the breeder so I could verify that the two are not related since there's a chance Lucy could be pregnant. But the number I was given has been disconnected.


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

In the picture you showed on your other thread, her belly didn't look pregnant. So she could be in the early stages of pregnancy, or not pregnant at all. Let's hope not pregnant if they're related 

edit: (also, if you get her pedigree/IHR# eventually, and sparty and her aren't related, and she's healthy and everything's good to go (LOT OF IFs haha) Then you could have itty babies. That is, if you have the resources , etc  )


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## Sarahg (Feb 18, 2010)

USDA licences are not species specific. I'm pretty sure licensed is licensed.


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

I really REALLY hope she's not pregnant since she's only 12 weeks old and not very big (at least compared to Sparty who is 3 weeks older than her). What are the chances that the male Lucy was housed with wasn't any good at mating yet? I have to believe that he caused that wound on her from either biting her or with his nails while trying to mate. Lucy's nails were SO long when I got her home, they were starting to curl under so I'm assuming the males were long as well. My poor baby girl.  I am so attached to her already, I don't want her to die trying to give birth. Sigh....gonna be a scary waiting period. They were housed together 3 weeks...that's plenty of time to knock her up.


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

Sarahg said:


> USDA licences are not species specific. I'm pretty sure licensed is licensed.


Thanks, Sarahg.


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Tym4myself said:


> I really REALLY hope she's not pregnant since she's only 12 weeks old and not very big (at least compared to Sparty who is 3 weeks older than her). What are the chances that the male Lucy was housed with wasn't any good at mating yet? I have to believe that he caused that wound on her from either biting her or with his nails while trying to mate. Lucy's nails were SO long when I got her home, they were starting to curl under so I'm assuming the males were long as well. My poor baby girl.  I am so attached to her already, I don't want her to die trying to give birth. Sigh....gonna be a scary waiting period. They were housed together 3 weeks...that's plenty of time to knock her up.


I dunno, My boy didn't understand what to do with a girl until she was 5months and he was... oh math... im gunna say 10 months haha :lol: My uno boy doesnt know, I had him and neytiri by each other for a few seconds, and let them sniff, and he didnt show any interest... but she was sticking her butt up at him so i removed her :roll:

But dont get me wrong, they're very capable of breeding from 7 weeks onward!


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

A USDA license is for a facility. It'll be listed under the name of the business but I'm almost positive that if a business happens to have facilities where animals are kept/bred in two locations, each location requires one. One license can be applicable to multiple species. For instance, we're waiting for our first inspection right now, which will make us licensed (class A; breeder) under the USDA. If, in a few years, we decided to add another species to our business, we would have to update the license information (to be for hedgehogs AND whatever else) and everything having to do with the new species would have to be inspected as well. But, the new species would fall under the same license number.

The USDA regulates the non-"hobby"-level breeding (and wholeselling/exhibitioning) of just about everything, not just exotics. If you have more than a certain number of breeding females (not sure if it differs by species; for hedgehogs it's 4 or more) or make more than a certain amount of money per year from selling the babies, you have to be licensed. Zoos have them, large-scale livestock operations have them, an so on. Our USDA booklet has information about the regulations/expectations specific to different categories - cats, dogs, marine animals, exotics/"wild" animals, non-human primates, etc. Certain animals, I believe, require a license for just one breeding pair - that would apply to animals like those in zoos, which can't be kept without certain permits.


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

Thank you for all the great info, Moxieberry! So I guess that means from what the previous owner of Lucy told me, they did come from a licensed breeder. Hopefully the breeder is ethical enough to not give a male and female hedgie that are related as a pair to someone. But I guess I might never find out since the number was disconnected. :evil: I'm going to keep trying to get to the bottom of this.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Being licensed by the USDA is the bare minimum. If you see a breeder with more than 3 females, and not licensed (and not clearly stating, like we do on the front page of our site, that they're in the process of getting it - because it does take a few months) - that's very sketchy. However, not every USDA licensed breeder (of hedgehogs, or anything) is a good breeder. The USDA inspections make sure the bare minimum is happening in terms of sanitary/humane conditions, and that the breeder has an established relationship with a vet, who is required to visit the facility at least annually (to go down a checklist of basics and sign off on it), and that all the paperwork is in order. The USDA doesn't regulate things like pedigree, or whether there's any inbreeding or genetic illness in the lines, or whether the breeder provides things like a health guarantee, WHS warranty, post-sale support (and so on), or whether the babies are properly socialized.

So, in this instance I would be suspicious. Unless the person somehow was sneaky about getting the two hedgehogs (which has been known to happen), the breeder sounds careless. No reputable, "good" breeder will sell opposite-sex hedgehogs to someone who isn't an established breeder (or starting out with the guidance of an established breeder). Doesn't matter if they're related or not. Doesn't matter if the potential buyer is carefully lectured on the importance of not letting them have "playtime", etc. We won't even give opposite-sex hedgehogs to people who are friends (assuming we're made aware of it), even if the hedgehogs would be in different households. We won't give a female hedgehog to someone who already owns a male from somewhere else, and vice versa. It's just asking for trouble.


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

Yes, I agree with you Moxieberry. The whole thing is sketchy. I know the breeder isn't very ethical because of the fact that they sold a pair like that, and because they didn't give basic hedgehog information to the owners. They didn't know to keep them separate, or have a place to burrow in or shelter, not even a wheel in their cage. The people were nice people, just uneducated about hedgies and I know if the breeder was any kind of responsible breeder they would have offered them information or at the very least asked them if they had any questions.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Yeah, that's one thing I tell people to look for. They should have a basic "application form" of some sort. It gives a general idea about how well they're informed, whether they've had hedgehog experience before, and what they'll be using for the bare necessities (food, cage, wheel). Since hedgehogs have such particular needs, it tells the breeder what might be lacking, what they'd need to be "educated" about, or if they have a pretty good start and are already aware of the good, up-to-date resources. If a breeder has an application form, it means they're taking some sort of interest in where their babies are going to end up; if there's no application form, it's not an immediate sign that they're not a good breeder, but it hints that they might be indiscriminate about who they sell to.

This is ours, to give you an idea: http://www.volcanoviewhedgehogs.com/res ... -form.html

Honestly it sounds more like what you'd expect when someone buys from a BYB or craigslist seller. But, unfortunately, there are breeders like that out there. Let's hope this one in particular has the number disconnected because they're not breeding anymore.


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

I like that questionnaire! I can see how that gives you some kind of idea of how much potential owners know. I had to fill out a questionnaire like that when I got my oldest labrador and now I have 3 from the same breeder. I appreciate all the effort and work you responsible breeders put into your hedgies. Not to mention, the love. 

The previous owners said they paid 300 dollars each for their hedgies. That seems really high to me. :shock:


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

That's very high. $175-200 is normal in our area, and I've noticed that on the east coast especially prices can be more like $250 at the high end. Some breeders will charge $300 and up to even $350 for "rare" or "specially marked" hedgehogs, which I personally think is ridiculous. BYBs tend to either try to charge very high prices, or lower-than-usual prices if they have trouble finding buyers.

Everything you've said so far sounds like a BYB, although I've also seen a few people who sell hedgehogs in addition to several other species, and it seems like they're in it more for the money and are careless about the welfare of the animals. I'm sure it's possible to breed more than one species and do it well, but the pattern I've seen is that when it's more than two, particularly if they're all exotic species with "special" requirements, the breeder's methods and morals look questionable. I know we have someone on here who breeds hedgehogs (not enough females to need a USDA license) as well as dogs, and I also know a few breeders who do hedgehogs + fancy/dumbo rats, and one who just added a breeding pair of STOs (short-tailed opossums). On the other hand, I know of several breeders who are "exotics breeders" and hedgehogs fall somewhere on their list of 5-10 different species. That's the kind of thing I wouldn't trust, uhg.


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## laurentj23 (Aug 22, 2012)

It's always is abt the money. If they dont care abt the money, they wont breed it for the first place. The last breeder i knew was a 16 y/o kid, and he's selling his hedgies for >200.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

IMO, being USDA means absolutely nothing when it comes to the standards someone keeps their animals. Global exotics was USDA and we all know the horror chamber it was. I think for someone having more than 3 breeding females and not being USDA licensed or in the process of says lots and is someone to avoid, but I would not use USDA as any basis of someone being a good breeder. 

This is my personal opinion but I think the price hedgehogs sell for now is one of the reasons there are so many backyard breeders around. When I was first breeding, around here hedgehogs were selling for on average $100 to $150. Although there were some less than desirable breeders, there certainly weren't the number of them that there are now that hedgehogs are selling for almost double that amount. The more expensive they become, the more people tend to see them as a quick buck.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

Nancy said:


> IMO, being USDA means absolutely nothing when it comes to the standards someone keeps their animals. Global exotics was USDA and we all know the horror chamber it was. I think for someone having more than 3 breeding females and not being USDA licensed or in the process of says lots and is someone to avoid, but I would not use USDA as any basis of someone being a good breeder.
> 
> This is my personal opinion but I think the price hedgehogs sell for now is one of the reasons there are so many backyard breeders around. When I was first breeding, around here hedgehogs were selling for on average $100 to $150. Although there were some less than desirable breeders, there certainly weren't the number of them that there are now that hedgehogs are selling for almost double that amount. The more expensive they become, the more people tend to see them as a quick buck.


The USDA don't make anyone a good breeder, a good breeder makes a good breeder. The price of hedgehogs is starting to drop and will only get lower as more and more breeders emerge, before long $100 will be to much to pay for a hoglet and all those people with 20 hogs and more will have a very hard time homing babies, just a thought for anyone wanting to make a quick buck, the ceiling is falling.


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

I agree with what you're all saying. Seems like USDA is another government agency trying to get money. Yeah they want certain criteria met before having a license, but not caring about inbreeding and all those other important things makes me think it's just a way to get their hands in the pockets of breeders. If I were to ever breed I would keep it very small, maybe 1 or 2 litters a year. If Lucy is pregnant I guess I"m going to learn fast. I am fortunate that I am a homemaker so I will be able to devote all my time to babies if she has them and there are any problems like rejected baby or if, god forbid, Lucy didn't make it through birth. 

So USDA licensing is basically a necessity to have if you want to have more than 3 females (in MIchigan), but doesn't mean squat on how great a particular breeder is.

The male that Lucy was housed with was a cinnicot ruby-eyed colored one. I think Lucy a grey pinto. She has a few white spots on her hind end area. Can a cinnicot and grey pinto come out of the same litter?


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Tym4myself said:


> I agree with what you're all saying. Seems like USDA is another government agency trying to get money. Yeah they want certain criteria met before having a license, but not caring about inbreeding and all those other important things makes me think it's just a way to get their hands in the pockets of breeders. If I were to ever breed I would keep it very small, maybe 1 or 2 litters a year. If Lucy is pregnant I guess I"m going to learn fast. I am fortunate that I am a homemaker so I will be able to devote all my time to babies if she has them and there are any problems like rejected baby or if, god forbid, Lucy didn't make it through birth.
> 
> So USDA licensing is basically a necessity to have if you want to have more than 3 females (in MIchigan), but doesn't mean squat on how great a particular breeder is.
> 
> The male that Lucy was housed with was a cinnicot ruby-eyed colored one. I think Lucy a grey pinto. She has a few white spots on her hind end area. Can a cinnicot and grey pinto come out of the same litter?


They COULD be out of the same litter.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

what if they are USDA licensed and veteranary inspected? would that be any better?


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## Tabi (Jun 24, 2012)

Maddie The Hedgehog said:


> what if they are USDA licensed and veteranary inspected? would that be any better?


It would be a bit better. But I like to personally see the place for myself. Because they could just tuck the badness away for the inspection and continue to do it when they aren't being inspected. It take a good person to be a good breeder, and I wouldnt trust anyone else


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

To keep the license, they have to be inspected by a vet at least annually.

It's also hard to "hide the badness" because after the first inspection to get the license, the rest of the inspections are unannounced. The inspector just shows up.

But, back to what I said earlier, which Nancy said as well. A USDA license means very little. It means they follow certain bare minimum regulations, but whether a facility passes is up to their individual inspector, and I imagine some are very lenient. Ours is the same as our mentor's, and she'll be contacting us shortly to schedule our first inspection - we know that she's very thorough and doesn't take any BS. The minimum regulations are just what the USDA deems the most important in terms of "humane treatment"; if a breeder is ONLY meeting the minimum, not going any further than that for the sake of the animals, then the care they provide is going to be a far cry from what any of us would consider "acceptable". Good breeders don't just meet the minimum requirements but exceed them.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

I'm thinking about adopting another hedgehog from the same breeder I got maddie from. She's vet inspected and usda licensed even tho that doesn't mean a whole lot but with her being vet inspected, it makes me feel safer. She came with a care guide and spikes delight food along with a homemade supplement food and a 3 day guarantee thing like if she got sick and died I would get refunded I think or get another hedgehog. I also had to sign some papers and I have copies and I have her phone number, address and I know she owns a petshop so I know where that is. She still lives in the same place and she has other hedgies for sale  I really want another one right now but I just cant


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

What about a lifetime WHS warranty? As far as I'm concerned, that should be at the top of the list of things to consider when picking a good breeder.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

My two cents on the USDA licencing, most "puppy mills" are USDA licenced....and look at what they are like.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

Wobbly Hedgehog Syndrome warranty?? There's not too many breeders in my area unfortunately =/
And I didn't know anything about WHS warranty. I love hedgies but I don't think I would be interested in breeding but I guess as long as they are vet inspected then that's good enough for me. Hopefully they're careful about breeding. I know that my hedgie wasn't inbred and she doesn't do that. I'm in indiana and idk too many good breeders and I don't believe in shipping an animal, I think it sounds kinda cruel.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

My hedgie wasn't extremely expensive or anything.


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## Tym4myself (Jul 17, 2012)

Sparty came from Motorcity Hedgehogs and they have a lifetime warranty on WHS. I paid 175 for him. I think 300 for a hedgie is really crazy high. But like I said, the people didn't have much education about hedgies, or the price of them in our area, apparently, OR, they weren't being honest with me about how much they paid. But it's not like I asked them, they just told me.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

A lifetime guarantee against WHS isn't just for the sake of the buyer, but for the breeder as well. By saying that they'll replace a hedgehog if it's proven (by necropsy) to have WHS, that's an incentive for people to come forward if/when WHS appears, and therefore the breeder finds out about it when they otherwise most likely wouldn't. A breeder may be good intentioned, and breed animals with pedigree, but just having pedigree isn't worth much if the pedigree is riddled with WHS and the breeder doesn't know it. Having that warranty in place makes it much more likely that the breeder will find out when a hedgehog they've bred gets WHS, and they're able to use that information to (ideally) stop breeding that line and inform anyone else (breeders and pet-owners alike) who have purchased babies from the same line. Having the breeding animals checked by a vet doesn't have anything to do with whether they're carriers of WHS, or they themselves are going to develop it later in life.

Having a lifetime WHS warranty is so standard that most breeders do have that policy - even ones that breed hedgehogs with inadequate pedigree, or who don't care to be thorough when it comes to verifying that the animals they get for breeding have clean lines. So, it doesn't guarantee that the breeder is good. But, in my opinion, since having a WHS guarantee serves to benefit both the buyer and the breeder, it's a "red flag" when a breeder doesn't have that in place at all. There are multiple things that should be considered when trying to determine how reputable and "good" a breeder is, and some of those things carry more weight than others. I think whether they have a WHS warranty should be at the top of that list.

I know of a breeder (let's call them "breeder A") who, a year or two ago, bought several babies from another breeder ("breeder B"), and more than one of them developed WHS. Breeder B didn't have a WHS warranty in place, and when breeder A told them about it, breeder B's response was: "It's the luck of the draw."

So, yeah, as far as I'm concerned - if a breeder cares at all about the welfare of hedgehogs in general, or about the hedgehogs they breed and sell in particular, they'll have a lifetime WHS warranty. Personally, we won't buy hedgehogs for our breeding herd from a breeder that doesn't have it.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

thats some useful information  good reputable breeders are hard to find these days. its sad that someone would just say "oh well its the luck of the draw" thats kinda crappy if you ask me. i will have to do some thinking on this then. i should ask my breeder more questions then if i can get a hold of her. idk if that will do any good though. i hope and pray that maddie wont get WHS. ive done prepared for that(mentally in my head) and had ideas on what to do and ive done research on what actions should be taken if your hedgehog is unfortunate enough to have that. i would just love to find some good breeders in my area, that would be nice.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

moxieberry, are you located anywhere near me, in the same state at least? :| i should look for some better breeders and be more careful. if your a breeder and if you were near me then i would purchase a hedgie from you


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

I appreciate you saying that! Unfortunately we're located in Washington State. We do ship, but I noticed earlier you said you wouldn't want to do that. If you change your mind about that in the future, let me know.  

I don't know of any breeders in Indiana, but I know of two in Michigan that I consider worthwhile - we haven't communicated directly with either of them yet, but they're on our list of breeders that we'd like to get some babies from in the future. If you want, send me a PM and I'll direct you toward them.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

you do ship? my problem is if its safe to ship them? i worry about the stress on the animal :| and it worries me. how much are your babies?


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

and how does shipping an animal work? is the animal pretty secure? does it have food, water? will it bounce around a lot during the trip? =/


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

well come to think of it, your not too far from me. well driving wise yes you would be but like are they shipped on a plane? how much would shipping cost and plane tickets? sry im bombing you with so many questions  but if they were flew here i guess it wouldnt be too stressful for them. depending on the cost and such, i maybe thinking of adopting from you in the future when i can.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Shipping typically costs $250-300 and it includes the gas for going to the airport (about 60 minutes from us), the airline-approved crate, and the "ticket" for flying, and other little things, like the bag that's in the carrier for them. That's in addition to the cost of the hedgehog itself ($175 for us). Hedgehogs are shipped in cargo with any other live animals, which is perfectly safe and kept pressurized like the cabin where people are. Because of temperature issues we won't ship during cold or very hot times of the year. We make sure it's a direct flight so it's as short as possible, and you (the customer in general) has to be at the airport when the plane lands. They aren't given food for a little while before the flight to prevent motion sickness (from full bellies), but they get plenty of water so they're nice and hydrated. It's suggested to let them have some water as soon as you pick them up, but wait until you get home to offer food, so they don't get sick in the car either. The carrier is lined with fleece, and they get a cozy sleeping bag and blanket, and unless it's a warmer part of the year, they also get a handwarmer (enclosed inside a sock or pocket of fleece so the hedgie can't touch it directly) to make sure it's nice and toasty inside the carrier. Depending on the baby's temperament, they might be a little disgruntled and nervous after it, and definitely worn out, but that's much the same as if you were to have to take a new baby on a long drive home after picking them up from a breeder that's not local.

So far we have one girl who was shipped from Colorado (along with a brother and sister who are owned by our mentor) and our mentor regularly gets new babies that are flown in. Up to 5 or 6 babies can be shipped in the same carrier, and a carrier can be split in half with a divider to make sure girls and boys aren't together. Obviously a pet owner wouldn't be getting that many, but for anyone considering shipping, it's worth considering going in on the shipping cost with a friend or even two if there's anyone they know who also wants a hedgehog.

They don't bounce any more than any of the people will. If there's turbulence, there will be a little "bouncing", but having flown quite a lot in my life, I can say that it's not much different from hitting bumps on a road. They don't get flung around inside the carrier. They don't travel with water, though, to prevent a spill that could give them a chill.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

does the shipping also include the price of the hedgehogs i assume?


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

ok lol nevermind, i had to reread that again. lol im falling alseep here haha :lol: but thats kinda expensive but i guess worth it in the long run since i would know that i was getting my hedgie from a trustworthy breeder. i paid $180 for maddie when i first got her. the maintenance keep up is not expensive at all unless you have to go to the vet for any reason but she doesnt eat a whole lot every day neither. shes kinda petite i suppose(considering shes only 6 months old now) but it cost me a little over $500(i think?or a little less?) by the time i bought her and everything that she needed. and i still need one more thing and thats a temperature controller. so i guess if i got another one i bet it will be about $600 when i get everything it needs. and what are algerian hedgehogs? i notice their ears are slightly bigger or is that just me?


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

No, shipping is in addition to the price of the hedgehog. Unfortunately, the cost of shipping an animal in cargo isn't exactly inexpensive, and then there's other things to consider - the cost of gas, the carrier and bedding that are sent with the hedgehog and therefore become the property of the buyer. The exact price of the shipment, without the extras, varies by what airline has to be used. We have an international airline near us, which gives access to 2 or 3 airlines that will take hedgehogs in cargo, but depending on the buyer's location not all of those airlines are necessarily going to be an option. $250-300 is a general estimate for the total, so it could be less, but probably not less than $220 all together. We're able to give a more specific estimate when we know the individual person's details. The amount they end up paying for shipping will be calculated as the actual price of the "ticket" + extras, and the total cost will be shipping (ticket + extras) + the price of the baby.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

Ok wow that is pretty expensive! I wish I lived closer to some breeders like you guys


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

When you're ready for another hedgie, look into the ones I told you about in PM.


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## Maddie The Hedgehog (Jul 28, 2012)

Thank you  i think i found some good ones in ohio thats closer to me also. http://www.huberhogs.com/ContactUs.php and http://www.huckstarhedgehogs.com/ i think those might be good


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