# hoe do you get a USDA licence????



## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi I am thinking of breeding hedgehogs but I don't know how to get one or how old you have to be! Cna someone try to help me? I live in Michigan, I went on ask.com and they did not even answer my question! Can some one with the knowledge reply back, it would be some help to me! :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2011)

Its not required I don't believe unless you have 3 + female hedgehogs breeding at any given time if I am not mistaken but theres a page on the site with some info 

http://hedgehogcentral.com/usda.shtml


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

yes but at the bottom of the page it clearly states, "USDA considers any animals that have not been spayed (unaltered) to be "breeding animals", whether they are currently being used for breeding purposes or not. Some breeders think they can bypass USDA licensing by breeding no more than 3 of their females at a time, but USDA does not agree with this interpretation and considers such operations to be in violation of Federal law." If I only breed two girl hedgehogs and their babies are all girls, when they are ready to be sold, I will be breaking the law. Can some one help me figure this out? I am so confused. :?


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

You wouldn't count those babies in your female count, unless you kept them beyond a reasonable age to have them in new homes.


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

How does that work if someone had 3 or more pet female girls? I know that there is some out there with multiple hedgie girls and I always figured that USDA wouldn't apply in that situation but now I'm questioning it because of the "USDA considers any unspayed animals as breeding animals". Does that mean if I ever wanted to get more hedgies in the future I would need to get a license if I ended up with more than 3 females since they would be unspayed even if they were to be pets only? I'm just curious because I can see myself getting more hedgies in the future because I enjoy them so much but would want to make sure I was doing so legally because I would never want them taken or something bad happening to them because of not having proper paperwork.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

oh, o.k. That makes a little bit more sence. So I can actually start with no worries! Thanks to every one who has helped me.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

I am sure a breeder will jump in with more info but in the meantime I will just ask one question out of the twenty I have for you: at 15 years old, do you have a job or access to hundreds of dollars (maybe as much as a thousand) to ensure you can afford a vet if/ when something goes wrong with one if your hedgies? If not, don't do it. 

That's just one concern I have of many, many, many concerns. Sigh.


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

I too would strongly discourage anyone young without a job and their own transportation or several years of hedgehog experience from breeding.

If you are only keeping pets, you don't need a USDA license regardless of how many you have. Once you start breeding though, more than 3 females you need one.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Here's a good thread that lightly details the cost and time needed for breeding. It'll probably cost several thousand dollars just for the initial setup, nevermind the continual costs. 
http://hedgehogcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8958


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

Immortalia said:


> Here's a good thread that lightly details the cost and time needed for breeding. It'll probably cost several thousand dollars just for the initial setup, nevermind the continual costs.
> http://hedgehogcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8958


Thanks, Immortalia. I knew there was a detailed thread but couldn't find it. Money us just one issue. Sigh.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

Really it is not just me going threw the prosses. I have a vollenterr job working with my aunt who is a specilist on exotic and small animals as a vetenarian. I also work 5 hours at my grandparents house and for a week I am payed $70. And since I am a family member of my aunt, I have a discount on vet bills, since it is $350 for a check up in michigan, the discounts lower to $105. Trust me, I am very organized and i have been building this up for a year. And since I am in FFA, if my animals die early for certain desieses that they cover, I get another animal for free at the same breeder I got it from. And to top it all off, if I am having a money crunch, the FFA could help me to pay all of my vet bills and my expences. It really took a long time but it is all worth it in the end. :mrgreen:


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Have you decided to at least get pedigreed breeding stock or are you still planning on breeding hedgehogs with no lineage?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Since it seems like you've considered most of the other parts, I just thought I'd point out that unless you make sure that the hedgehogs you're buying are breeding quality from a trustworthy breeder, and you get a pedigree for them to check for WHS in their lines (not just taking the breeder's word), you can't be 100% sure that the babies you're breeding will be healthy and guaranteed free of WHS. Even if your intent is to breed a litter for yourself to keep, or to sell as pets, you should still be willing to do what's necessary to make sure you're not contributing to the problems that there are with hedgehog breeding. Breeding can be fun, but it's also a responsibility to the population of hedgehogs as a whole.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Can't edit my post now, so sorry for the double-post. But I also wanted to point out to keep in mind where you're going to be in 3-5 years. What are your plans for college? How long will you be able to keep all of those hedgehogs? Will you have time to care for all of them on top of more and more homework as you get through high school and into college, and get a job, on top of other activities? And enough money to take care of them all after you've moved out and have bills to pay? Most dorms don't allow pets, and some apartments don't allow them or have strict rules about what's allowed.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

Answering the college question, Since my brother is also interested, I can just give him the busness (he is two years younger than me.) but if he fall out of it, the FFA makes you have a group on one project, I have 5 other people in my group that can take over for me if I have conflics like my clooge edu.And since I started the group, when I am ready to take it back over, the gruop is willingly to give it back, and if they want to continue with me, i can always make it into a two people owning hedgehog breeding project.

Answering the trust worthy breeder question, I have a breeder down in Ohio and I only live 2 hours away from him, he breedes hedgehogs, type this in and read the part about the 'Premier plan'. I think you would be impressed.

http://www.critterconnection.cc/hedgeho ... repurchase

Also I would like to commet, I love to answer your questions about me getting started early, but I fell like everyone is going agaisnt me on not being able to do it. It feels like that you are saying that a responsible teenager can't do this. I have been studing and people have been talking to me on chat and saying I can't do this, I am too irresponsible to do this. I have been thinking about this for a long while now, I keep saying this but I have been thinking about it for ALMOST A YEAR NOW!!! Not trying to be rude but it seems to be like every one is telling me to stop doing what I am doing and telling to just be a normal teen should be acting like. I would like for all people who are chating me online to stop giving me messeges about ' stop acting like an adult, ' or ' you can't do it, it is imposible' . I love that fact that people are double checking me, I really do But i don't like the people posting on chat that I am stupid and irresposible. Keep on posting those questions! :mrgreen:


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

Sryy I did not mean 'chat' I ment 'PM' srry for the confution! :lol:


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

srry wrong link I sent you, whe you get there there is a little button on top of the box that says prising, click on that and it will bring you into the section you want to be in, 'Priemer plan is the second wringing paragraph near the top. Sryy for the confustion...again!


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

Jesz! I have spelling problems 'pirising' is 'pricing'! I hat espelling errors....And my laptop! :lol:


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Like you said, we just want to double check that you have indeed done the research and know what you're getting into. It's not against you personally, but more with the fact that there's always people who say they're going to breed when they haven't done enough research, or are planning to breed petstore hedgehogs or without pedigrees. And to be honest, your age does make it a bit iffier in my opinion, just because it's such a big responsibility. It does sound like you've thought about it and planned for the challenges that come with breeding, and I give you props for that. All I can add is make sure than anyone else who is going to be a part of this knows everything they need to know as well, especially before they assume care for any of the hedgehogs. I know that's a bit of an obvious point, but just in case! And also I'd suggest seeing if Gail (I got my hedgehog Lily from her as well ) or another trustworthy breeder on here would be willing to mentor you. No matter how much research you do, it's always well worth it to have someone you can call in the middle of the night if there's a problem with Momma or babies, or even just ask simple questions.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

we have been sending e-mails back a forth, i want to make the purchace of my new hedgehog sometime soon before I go to school in september. Most likely in agust after my family reunion, and if that does not work, I have my older brother to watch them, he has handled my other hedgehog and he is quite fond of Hedgie, my hedgehog. He has watched him befor. What do you guys sugest?


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

srry about the randomness but this is my hedgie, 'HEDGIE'!!!


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

I know for me its not that I think a teenager is irresponsible, I was one once too and was very responsible. It's more that things like time, money, transportation and other resources are harder to guarantee 100%. Even with a group of people working together, ultimately the person they are living with needs to be able to guarantee care if something was to happen. The vet discount is great but you would still need to save for an emergency, even with discounts the money can add up quick. Does the money the FFA give to help with vet costs cover any kinda of procedure that would need to be done? I think the main thing is that even the most responsible teenager is going to have a harder time with this unless they are financially independent and has their own transportation and resources. I am not a breeder but some things that come to mind:
1. I think its great to have a group of supporting people but in a worse case scenario and all else fails you would have to be able to take care of an emergency on your own. A lot of states don't allow people under the age of 18 to drive after dark which would make an emergency vet visit hard if for some reason you were the only one that was there to handle it.
2. If the others in the group are school age too it would make hand feeding a litter if necessary extremely difficult. 
3. You said you would want to get the hedgie before school started in September but you would want to make sure that after September you will have the time to take care of a hedgehog or any possible litters.
4. You said in one post that in a couple of years that you could always pass the business down to your little brother. The thing is though that these are animals and more than just a business. I'm not saying that things don't come up in life where a hedgie has to go live with another person but just that it might not be best if you are getting one if you know ahead of time that they will have to cared for by someone else. 

I'm not in anyway trying to be negative or anything like that or saying that I don't think you are responsible and not caring. It's just these are some issues I could see with it.


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## nibletsmom (Dec 20, 2010)

I can remember being 15 years old, being very responsible for my age and having the desire to take on big projects....

Now at 24 years old, I look back on that oh so responsible 15 year old that I was and see a young inexperienced teenager who thought at the time that I was invincible and could take on the world with my creative ideas.

When the adults on this forum are discouraging you from breeding, it is not because we are all negative people and we are putting you down for your age, it is because we have all been 15 years old at one time...and we are now adults and can look back on the 15 year old version of ourselves and know that even the most responsible teenager is not equipped to fully handle breeding hedgehogs or any animal for that matter.

You are 15 and I am assuming and 15 that you don't yet have a car, which means that transportation would be put on your parents or friends which is unfair since this is "your" hobby. And you said that you are making $70 a week and can get a discount on vet visits at the cost of $105/visit. Well making $70 a week means that you are making roughly $280 a month. You have to have two hedgehogs to breed which means that in the first month just to have them in for their checkup, before you start breeding, would cost you $210 for the both of them, which leaves you a grand total for the month of $70. You will need to purchase food and set-up equipment. Do you have sufficient heat set-ups? Two separate cages? I know that I have ONE hedgehog and have $600 in his set-up...that is 3 months worth of your earnings. 

The cost of vet visits, set-up costs, food, etc...puts you in the negative financially already. You MUST have a savings of money set aside before you even start...I will say again...before you even start of at least a couple of thousand dollars. This would be to cover the vet expenses needed in the event of an emergency during birth. And yes, I read that your Aunt is a vet and that you get a discount but surgery of any kind is expensive, whether you are getting a discount or not.

If you do not physically have this kind of money set aside on your own, I think it is irresponsible of you to even begin a hobby/job such as this. I am not saying that "you" are not responsible, I am saying that relying on your parents or the FFA to pay for your hobby if something goes wrong and not being FULLY prepared to start something such as this is irresponsible. I went to a high school with a very large FFA organization with funds that would pay for things but never have I heard of them paying for things such as breeding hedgehogs and paying for things that go wrong. 

Also, is this a school project? You said that there is a group at school that will be helping you with this? What are you going to do next year when you all turn 16, get cars, jobs, start dating frequently and all your money is going towards gas, etc? I am just saying that I know what it is like to be 16 too.

All in all, like I said before, I am not saying that this is impossible. But I am strongly encourage you to consider what you are getting yourself into financially. It is the responsible thing to be prepared for this on your own and not be relying on everyone to drag you out of the water when you start sinking.

This situation would be exactly the same is if you were to go out and buy a car. You have done all your research on it and you know that you make $280 dollars a month...so you can make the payment which may be $200/month and have $80 left over for gas and possibly enough for monthly car insurance. But at the end of the day...that eats every single bit of your monthly earnings up. Soon enough, you will realize that you have no extra money to go out and hang out with your friends or eat, etc. And what happens if something goes wrong with your car? You have no extra money set aside to have it fixed, so therefore you have to borrow money from your parents or the bank. That scenario is also irresponsible. 

And what happens if you have the hedgehog breeding going on plus you decide to get a car?

These are all points that you seriously need to consider. I am not a breeder and really wish someone like Larry or Nancy or some of the others would come along and put their breeders two cents in but I am trying to speak to you on the responsible adult financial side of things.

Why can't breeding hedgehogs be something that you put in your 10 year plan?? Say to yourself, "it is something that I feel very passionate about but I realize that right now may not be the best time for it...so I plan to start breeding hedgehogs within the next 10 years." When I was your age...I had a 5 year plan and a 10 year plan. There were things I wanted to do at age 15 that I soon realized were out of my reach at that age but I have since then been to college, got my degree and I have a stable good paying job. I am now more equipped to complete things that are on my list than I was at age 15 working a couple of hours a week.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I have a few questions for you.

Why do you want to breed? 
What is the reason that you feel the desire to breed? 
What are you expecting to get out of breeding? 
What goals do you have for your breeding plan? 

What is your financial plan? 
You've just been told to save the life of your female, it will be $1200. Do you have that money or access to it right now at this very minute? I don't care if your relative is a vet and gives you discounts, at the time you need it, she is on holiday so you have to use a regular vet. Crap happens and it happens fast and we must be prepared for it. Are you?

What is your transportation plan? At your age you can't drive. What if when that emergency happens there is nobody around to drive you. What is your plan for that? 

The big dance/party/sleepover/camping trip etc, is on tonight but you have a pregnant girl who is acting strange. How will you deal with it? 

I could go on and on but hubby is in the van waiting for me. :lol:


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

You've got some fantastic advice from some very smart, well-intentioned people. I really hope you'll consider it and not just decide to go with your original plan of breeding. I know it sounds like so much fun and you feel like you can justify where you'd meet problems at every turn, but the problem is, it's not gonna happen. Even if you have all the resources, I can guarantee you school will get harder, you'll find another hobby (boys?) that takes up all your time, something. The most responsible thing to do right now is to admit that at your age this isn't in the best interest of the hedgehogs and decide to be a pet owner. You can still have your pets, enjoy them as they should be enjoyed, and stay here and learn as much as you can while you get to a point in life that breeding would be more reasonable. You'd gain a lot of respect for being responsible and patient and lots of experience that you never realize that you need for breeding. 

There's so many unknowns at your age, and so much to learn. Please take our advice and save yourself the money problems, difficulty with people not supporting taking this on, and everything else by staying a pet owner and gaining more experience before taking this on.


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## ReginasMommy (Apr 13, 2011)

Everything that has been said so far is 100% spot on. And it's funny I should read this today, because just the other night at dinner I was telling my parents about hedgehogs, and their health, and when they're fully mature, and my mom said "are you thinking about breeding hedgehogs?" My answer was "perhaps some day in the future, but not for at least 10 years." I'm twenty years old, so I'm not much older than you, I'm in college, and I work 20 hours a week. I am absolutely nowhere NEAR ready to even legitimately consider it. And I have the luxury of a hand-me-down car that is all paid for, and my parents funding my tuition. I'm very fortunate in that regard. But they don't fund Regina and her food/cage/health bills. Regina is completely my responsibility. From experience, I can tell you that hedgehog care can be expensive. Regina has had a recurring poop issue that has cost hundreds of dollars in just a month. I can't imagine having the added burden of another hedgie or two, or having that cost while paying for college and/or a car.

And yes, breeding hedgies does seem like a fun and rewarding job, but just from reading the forums and hearing breeder's stories, it is also a stressful, emotional, and costly job. I remember on a thread somewhere, Larry was talking about how breeding hedgehogs can be very heartbreaking.

Don't just think about the monetary aspect. I won't really get into that much more because it has been covered perfectly already by previous posters. Consider the emotional toll it might take. I'm sure any good breeder will tell you, their hedgies mean so much to them. Would you really feel comfortable just handing the business off to a brother or friends? I know that when I leave my one hedgie Regina, even for a couple of days, and in the care of my parents and sister (which is fantastic, by the way), I still worry about her and miss her.

How would you deal with the impact of a mama hedgie possibly killing or eating her babies? And how would you feel if the mama died during birth. Regardless of the financial burden, the emotional burden is too great to overlook.


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## nibletsmom (Dec 20, 2010)

Question:

Do you possibly have any breeders nearby that you could maybe volunteer your time and learn and see what breeding is all about from a first hand experience before you decide to take this on by yourself?

Shadowing a breeder would be a great learning experience for you and would allow you to see and learn from someone who has been breeding for a long time.

I know that shadowing doesn't sound like as much "fun" as doing it yourself but you would learn a lot. 

I think you should look into the options.


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## nibletsmom (Dec 20, 2010)

It worries me a little that there has been no feedback for 2 days from the OP.


To JLF1995, I really hope that you haven't ditched the forum because of people not agreeing with you and that you will continue to visit the forums and ask/receive advice from the experienced hedgehog owners here on HHC. We are all here to help. And I will say from experience myself that there is a world of knowledge in the brains of the people on this forum. I know that I would not have made it without all the advice of the wonderful people here and I continue to seek out the advice of people here. People here can come across as strong at times but it is not because people here are mean, it is because they care so much about hedgehogs and are passionate about their care and well being.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

Sooooooo sorry for not being able to respond in WEEKS! I had a car crash and my laptop was compleatly busted! :x 
I understand that everyone has conserns for me, But what i don't understand are the people asking the same questions over and over again. I have everything I need to know now unless people make a commet for me to know, I had to leave for 2 days and when I got into the accident I was not very happy thats for sure. :lol: 
I have read the commets, yes even the long one on i think on page 2. I understand but I got a baby girl, I wanted to make a trusting bond with the girl befor I breed. I know I am not going to make much money but I AM ONLY BREEDING ONE FEMALE BECAUSE FOR THE VET BILLS! I understand more females that i have that will have babies will be more finatial and a life saver and I understand that. I am trying to stay in my range that I can handle. I have already bought a little girl just yesterday, and I got my laptop today. She is sleeping on my lap with a towel. I do not have pic.s yet because she is still new and so young. And grumpy! :lol:


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2011)

JLF1995 said:


> Sooooooo sorry for not being able to respond in WEEKS! I had a car crash and my laptop was compleatly busted! :x
> I understand that everyone has conserns for me, But what i don't understand are the people asking the same questions over and over again. I have everything I need to know now unless people make a commet for me to know, I had to leave for 2 days and when I got into the accident I was not very happy thats for sure. :lol:
> I have read the commets, yes even the long one on i think on page 2. I understand but I got a baby girl, I wanted to make a trusting bond with the girl befor I breed. I know I am not going to make much money but I AM ONLY BREEDING ONE FEMALE BECAUSE FOR THE VET BILLS! I understand more females that i have that will have babies will be more finatial and a life saver and I understand that. I am trying to stay in my range that I can handle. I have already bought a little girl just yesterday, and I got my laptop today. She is sleeping on my lap with a towel. I do not have pic.s yet because she is still new and so young. And grumpy! :lol:


You still avoided answering the questions posed.

Why do you want to breed? 
What is the reason that you feel the desire to breed? 
What are you expecting to get out of breeding? 
What goals do you have for your breeding plan?

And are you still going to breed even this one without having a four to five generation lineage to prove there is no WHS?


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm am soooo sorry for not answering you question TWCOGAR, I really am! 
Why do I want to breed?- I want to be able to know everything about them and I want to breed a large amount someday but one right now is good enough. I also want to be a exotic vetenarien. I also want to be a expert on hedgehogs. And I know this could sound cheesey, but I want everyone to know all about hedgehogs especialy in Michigan.
What is the reason that you feel the desire to breed?- I think I answered it in the second question, to be able to succed in becomeing something I want to be.
What are you expecting to get out of breeding?- To gain the knowledge I was craving for! To show every body how hedgehogs were like a blessing for me. 
What goals do you have for your breeding plan?- To have hedgehogs part of my life was something I will cherish, and I want to show how hedgehogs can be somebodys friend. 
Now I know you guys are going to hammer me down on this and probley state, ' well you can be succesful and not breed hedgehogs and wait till you are older to do this'. but i think I have spoken as much as I can. I only feel negitive in this conversation. And I happen to know that it could lead to negitive thoughts to the person that is reseaving them. I realy don't want to reply any more and you may think that I am being irresposible and I am not thinking this through. I will answer some more questions but I feel that you guys are strangling me and trying to make me cough up that I can't do it. You guys may not be doing so but it feels like that to me. I only want to stop answering in this subject because of all the negative. If you guys are all right about everything and I happen to fail, then I could easily punnish myself and say sorry to everyone and say I was foolish and irresposible, there are times when I answer questions and I have a bad comment right after my commet telling me I don't know what I am talking about, I feel stupid and the people go right on and cotinue with the punishment. I know you guys are just trying to help but it is not seeming to feel that way to me.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

forgot to answer the WHS question. The girl i just resently got had a clean generation. I had asked the breeder and let me look at the generation line. Hedgie the one I did not know much about, I called them and they gave me the shop's number and I called them to get the breeder's number and I met him and I asked for the generation line, he gave me what I needed and I am glad to say that they are both clean of WHS. And they are not even related.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2011)

JLF1995 said:


> forgot to answer the WHS question. The girl i just resently got had a clean generation. I had asked the breeder and let me look at the generation line. Hedgie the one I did not know much about, I called them and they gave me the shop's number and I called them to get the breeder's number and I met him and I asked for the generation line, he gave me what I needed and I am glad to say that they are both clean of WHS. And they are not even related.


They are both clean and their parents, grand parents, and great grand parents are too?

We're not trying to make you feel bad no matter the age breeding hedgehogs is a great responsibility and there are a lot of ethical values that come with it.

We all care deeply for our quilled friends, the bombardment was because it at the time seemed like our questions were being ignored and that raised a lot of concern in our community, I assure you it isn't meant as hostile.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

At least there is some carement, somebod 
Yes I checked the farthest i could get, It was going into the 4th generation for Hedgie and the 7th generation for Norah my female. They are not related. i was kinda releaved for it.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2011)

Well then good luck hopefully it goes well at least you've got a good few months to continue to prepare them


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## moothecow (Jun 4, 2011)

Oh no, I'm sorry to hear you've been in a car crash! Are you, aside from your laptop, okay???

As for the breeding, please understand that people here aren't trying to shut you down on purpose. Just making sure you really know what you're getting into. However, it sounds like your two hedgehogs come from a non-related, non-WHS stock, which is great.

I would only add in a few more suggestions:

1. I know you said you saved up some money, but I would suggest that while you're socializing your new hedgehogs and preparing to breed, you save up as much as humanely possible in preparation for the breeding. Pregnancy and birth can have many complication - some which can leave vet bills in the thousands of $$$. So, stockpile as much money as possible, just to be prepared (though I hope everything goes well and without a need for emergency care!)

2. I think you already mentioned it, but start slow - just this one litter, see how it goes, see how your finances/time/other things hold up. Don't start getting a whole breeding herd or anything like that just yet 

3. Also, do you have a mentor? Is there a reputable breeder in your area who you can shadow? It is good to have tons of support at all hours of the day or night.

4. Finally, Nancy mentioned this a while back, but what's your transportation situation? If there is an emergency in the middle of the night, or at a time when there is no one around to drive you, do you have a very solid plan in place to get the hedgehogs to the e-vet? (speaking of, is there a good emergency vet near to where you live?)

Good luck and keep posting and asking questions! There's nothing like the knowledge of everyone on HHC


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

I am fine except that I have a broken toe... I am surprized that I didn't get a broken arm or somthing. At least I am lucky.

I have about $500 in the bank and in my "piggy bank" at my house I have $150 and I am still working. I normaly don't go to bed until 11:00pm and that is when I play with my hedgies. My dad normaly gets home from work about that time and he plays with them too. I am not planing to breed until I have the money first just in case of a health problem. 

Yes I did mention that I wanted to go slow, I just want to make sure she is comfortable and make sure that this is going to work, if she has a problem while giving birth, I might not breed for a little while and let her recover compleatly! :shock: 

The breeders in Michigan ether stoped breeding or don't answer you e-mails, or are too far away to get to. One breeder still has not e-mailed me back or answered my calls, if you want to see her website let me know. I really have no one to shadow. But I now know that their is people on here almost 24/7 and I know that people could answer my questions if I have any. If you know someone in michigan that sould help me let me know right away!!!!  

If it is in the morning to the middle of the day, my mom could drive me or my dad or my aunt. If it is in the afternoon to 9pm, my dad could drive me or my aunt or my mom. If it is in the middle of the night, since my dad works late after he is done with work or if it is a emergency and he leaves work he could drive me. We are a busy family but we always say family is befor work. I live in laigsburg and it is about 20 minutes away from the closes vet. That is were my aunt works. 
Keep up with the questions.


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

You may feel like the members who have commented on your thread are "strangling" you... but trust me, our intentions are not to make you feel like an idiot because you're 15.

If a 45 year old woman came on this website and told us that she makes $250/month and doesn't have a car and that she lives with her parents and wants to start breeding... 95% of what has been said to you would be repeated to the 45 year old woman.

I know what it's like to have hopes and dreams, and I know how frustrating it is to have people point out the downside to things that you *think* you have figured out. When I was 15, I was determined to start my own rescue shelter in the barn in my back yard. My mom told me that it would be expensive, and asked how I would take care of the animals when I was at school. She told me I wasn't allowed to do it. I was furious with her and didn't talk to her for months. But then I got my driver's license a few months later, and thought, "Phew! I'm glad Mom didn't let me do that, since I'm never home anymore!"

Having $750 is a great start. But we all know how expensive vet bills can be, with or without a discount. Operations can cost thousands of dollars. In a situation where you were told you would have to pay $2,500 for an emergency vet trip to save your hedgehog's life, what wold you do? This is a rhetorical question, as obviously you don't have $2,500 and wouldn't be able to have the surgery done.

We are all just concerned for the welfare of not only your possibly-mama hedgie, but the hoglets that would (hopefully) be birthed successfully. We can't stop you from doing what you are determined to do - just keep in mind that most of us are older and have been through a lot of things in our lives. I know at 15 you think you know just as much as someone in their 20s... but you still have a lot to learn about responsibility and financial obligations. I would hate to see your hedgehog die due to birthing issues, or to see a horrified post in a few months telling us about how mama ate the babies and you are freaking out.

There's no need to respond to this because I know you will be able to come up with something to tell me to try to make me believe that you'll be able to breed hedgehogs at 15 years old, with no car, limited money, and 4 years of friends, football games, and school dances to look forward to. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in so I don't feel guilty if you decide to breed and something horrible happens to your hedgehog family.

Good luck, and when you do breed, PLEASE post questions as they come up. If a vet check up is $105, you will be needing HHC's help a lot.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

Well said, hanhan.


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## moorea (Jun 25, 2011)

moothecow said:


> As for the breeding, please understand that people here aren't trying to shut you down on purpose. Just making sure you really know what you're getting into.


I will admit that I know NOTHING about breeding hedgehogs, as a matter of fact only owning a hedgehog for a few weeks I know very little about hedgehogs still! I am learning. But I believe deciding to breed ANY animal is taking on a huge responsibility. And I wish someone had made sure I knew what I was getting into when I decided to breed dogs!

I was 38 years old, had three cars in the driveway, owned my own successful business, had plenty of knowledge about the animal and the breed I was preparing to breed. I had a wonderful working relationship with my vet! It was a dream of mine for longer then I can remember. I picked two baby labs from the best possible champion lines and was ready to go! They were cute puppies, the family loved them. The thing is with dogs, if you want the mamma to continue to be healthy you should not breed her every time she is in heat, you should wait for the second heat and breed every other. Mocha finally went into heat and on day one (even though we weren't going to breed her) we were very excited. This turned out to be the WORST 28 days of our lives. It was complete ****. My male turned crazed what was once a sweet loyal boy was now focused on one thing 24 hours each day. No one slept. We tried to keep them seperated, but doors were being scratched to ruin and they cried constantly at either side of a door. In the end we just took turns staying awake and watching them. 28 days later my legs and arms were bloody and scarred from pulling them off eachother when he went for her. I was more sleeped deprived then when either of my children were born. As soon as she was out of heat they were both taken to be fixed and no in this house will ever think about breeding again.

Now I am not saying that breeding hedgehogs is anything like breeding dogs. I am just trying to point out that breeding any animal is a huge responsibility. You do not have to be young to not be fully prepared for what is ahead. Even with enough money, a car, and even information, there can be something you are forgetting or not realizing to turn your dream into a nightmare.... In my case while we thought we had everything figured out, we were not prepared for what was involved in keeping our labs seperated. My sweet docile male broke through doors (which all had to be replaced at the end, Jumped through screens when she was being walked, howled, barked and cried through day and night for 28 days.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

Ok, I was not going to show this conversation to my family, but I had no other choice.  
My dad was furious with the commet made by hanhan27. 
"I know what it's like to have hopes and dreams, and I know how frustrating it is to have people point out the downside to things that you *think* you have figured out." 
My dad was not so happy with that commet, neither was I.    
I could not answer this commet as soon as I could.
My mom was not to thrilled with this commet ether,
"If a 45 year old woman came on this website and told us that she makes $250/month and doesn't have a car and that she lives with her parents and wants to start breeding... 95% of what has been said to you would be repeated to the 45 year old woman." 
My mom and dad said if I keep on getting this "imiture feedback from the people on here, you have the right to leave this website for good!" 
I REALLY don't want to leave but if my family does not recomend this website for me and if they think that I am getting negitive energy from this, they will make me leave. I love this website and I love the feedback, but hanhan27... you REALLY hurt my feelings.    
I understand you are trying to keep my hedgies safe from horrible things but it makes sence that you have NOT read my recent post. 

"Yes I did mention that I wanted to go slow, I just want to make sure she is comfortable and make sure that this is going to work, if she has a problem while giving birth, I might not breed for a little while and let her recover compleatly!" 
That sentence was pulled out of my last post. 

hanhan27 I do not want to be hated by you or me hate you for anything you said, or what I said or what my parents said but, could you be more careful on what you say? you really made me upset and I am actually thinking of leaving this wonderful, well built website. I hope you take this into consideration.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

Sorry I put in the wrong commet in my mom's saying for a imatur feedback, It was supposed to be this commet, 
"I know at 15 you think you know just as much as someone in their 20s... but you still have a lot to learn about responsibility and financial obligations. I would hate to see your hedgehog die due to birthing issues, or to see a horrified post in a few months telling us about how mama ate the babies and you are freaking out." 
Sorry for the mixup...


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

I don't see anything wrong with hanhan's comment - she's voicing legitimate concerns, as we all have. This is a public forum, you can't pick and choose the responses you want to hear and not what you NEED to hear. If your parents have a problem with our concern for the hedgehogs' welfare, then I'm afraid they are the immature ones, not us. If you decided to go through with this, we would much rather be able to have you come here to get help than to be scared off and try and handle things on your own - we don't want you to leave, for sure. Just realize that you opened a can of worms with the "I'm a kid and I want to breed" and you can't expect everyone to support you when we've seen this exact same situation go VERY VERY wrong in the past. I can think of 3 members off the top of my head that also were young, thought they had it figured out, and it was disastrous.

I DO think you have a lot of the corners covered and it sounds like you have support and you also have us. Some of us may not agree it's for the best, but please don't leave - we're here to help the hedgehogs. That should be your concern too, if you breed.


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## CanadienHedgie (Feb 4, 2011)

I don't see anything wrong with her comment. Just like everyone else she was giving her opinion. Your parents still control what you do, yet you want to breed animals? Your parents are being irresponsible by letting you breed. Children shouldn't be creating life. Yes, if a person came on here saying they have no car and make $250/month, I'd ask them the exact same questions that have been asked. How do you plan to pay for a $2000 vet bill? How do you plan to hand feed the babies when your at work all day? Do you even know how to hand feed? How do you plan to get your hedgehog to the vet when necessary? The hedgie could die because you cannot get it to a vet. You've hardly owned hedgehogs, and expect to breed them? How much should hedgies weigh before they can go to their new homes? I would ask all the same questions. 

And honestly, I would never buy a pet that a child bred. I buy animals from experienced people that can answer basically any question I throw at them. Anyone under 18 is a child. 

Everyone on here is here for the welfare of hedgehogs. We want hedgehogs to be properly taken care of and to help people learn how to do that. I'm sure everyone on here would like you to stay, since your not listening to any of us, we'd at least like to make sure the hedgehogs are ok.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

It is not my choice at all if people make bad commets about me and my ideas. My parents and I know that. 
I don't have the freedom to keep this account anymore, now it is my father's decition. My mom said to keep coming but don't respond to the negitivity but my dad is not sure about the commet that my "parents are imature" . 
I don't want to leave but it is in the hands of my parents.
I understand this is a public forum but I have the freedom to point out things out don't I ? 
I do want to have a wonderful life with hedgehogs and I undersatnd that I should stay, but like all parents they care about me and what I am doing. They are not imature and they know what they are doing, when i was reading on the information on how to breed succefuly, they were right their reading along with me and they would ask questions and I would answer them or ask the questions here.


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## CanadienHedgie (Feb 4, 2011)

My biggest issue right now is, your parents control everything you do, yet you are planning on creating life. I'm sorry, but your parents are being immature. They are letting there child breed, AND taking away the source of information. That's responsible? That's like saying, "Yes son, you can breed, but you aren't allowed to have information available to you, so in the end it's the poor animals that suffer just so you can feel satisfied." Sheesh.


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

JLF1995 said:


> hanhan27 I do not want to be hated by you or me hate you for anything you said, or what I said or what my parents said but, could you be more careful on what you say? you really made me upset and I am actually thinking of leaving this wonderful, well built website. I hope you take this into consideration.


My intentions were not to be hurtful, and I do apologize if that's the way you took it. I'm not going to apologize for voicing my concerns, though, and I was in NO way immature. I do not "hate" you. You are just a kid, and I don't "hate" people because they do things I don't agree with. If that was the case, I would be a very lonely person.

In my opinion, if you don't want to hear the things people have to say, you shouldn't have posted this in the first place. I would hate to see you leave HHC. If you start breeding and run into problems, I (like everyone else, I'm sure) would rather you come here to get the information and help that you need rather than putting the health of your hedgie family at risk by not having knowledgeable people to turn to for advice. Especially since you said there are no breeders in your area to shadow or learn from.



JLF1995 said:


> I REALLY don't want to leave but if my family does not recomend this website for me and if they think that I am getting negitive energy from this, they will make me leave.


This is just curiosity (not rudeness or immaturity), but if your parents are involved enough in your life to force you to leave a wonderful website like HHC that will give you the info you need to breed, doesn't it worry you that they would be involved enough to maybe one day tell you to get rid of the hedgehogs, whether you like it or not? I know you are going to say "My parents won't make me get rid of them", but that's another red flag that jumps out at me.



JLF1995 said:


> I understand you are trying to keep my hedgies safe from horrible things but it makes sence that you have NOT read my recent post.
> 
> "Yes I did mention that I wanted to go slow, I just want to make sure she is comfortable and make sure that this is going to work, if she has a problem while giving birth, I might not breed for a little while and let her recover compleatly!"


I did read your posts. I read every post in this thread, actually... I chose not to comment on that ^ particular statement because, in my opinion, if a hedgehog has a serious issue giving birth, you shouldn't breed that hedgehog again. Giving her a little break isn't going to fix the cause of the birthing issues. If I was a breeder and had a hedgie go through a traumatic experience while giving birth, I would never put her through that again, with or without a little break. That's just my opinion though, and because I'm sure there are breeders out there that DO mate hedgehogs that have had previous health issues with pregnancy, I decided not to comment on it.

If you leave this website because you feel that the people here don't have the knowledge to help you, that's a perfectly reasonable choice. But if you leave because you or your parents are upset with someone for stating an opinion that you/they don't like... it just shows that you aren't nearly as grown up as you think. Part of being an adult is being able to handle criticism, accepting that not everyone is going to feel the way you do or support the things you say or do, and handling it mentally and emotionally like an adult.

I don't want you to leave HHC. I feel like I have made the clear. But in the future, if you want advice or information about something, be prepared to (possibly) read posts that "hurt your feelings". HHC is here to inform, teach, help, etc, and I seriously doubt people will want to lie to you to make you feel good if it may put the lives of hedgehogs at risk.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

My parents have decided to let me stay, your lucky CanadienHedgie that my dad did not see those two commets you made or he would for sure not let me see this website again. He told me if there is no other website that hedgehog owners talk to eachother and help eachother out on problems then I could stay. I e-mailed this link to one of my friends who has a hedgehog and she breeds bunnies, she is one year younger than me. She has been looking on this website and liked it and is thinking about joining. She saw the the post you guys were making and she still wants to join but she has one question, she sent this to me to show to you.
" I understand that you are not o.k of her breeding hedgies, but in my case i think that it is a wonderful idea. So if you are against young people breeding, are you against me breeding rabbits? Rabbits could have complications too you know. And it is also a risk that they could die of complications. I have been breeding for almost a year now and I have 15 boy rabbits and 15 girl rabbits and I do have a USDA licence thanks to the FFA. I started with only a few and I worked my way up to that point that I know what I am doing. My friend Jessica or JLF1995, helped me search information on them before she even got one and was pulled into the idea that it could be fun, I decided not to because I was not as interested as my friend Jessica was. She can do it and I don't understand why you guys are totaly against it on young people stepping up on things they want to do and accept the consiquences. That all I am going to say.
Sami."
I did not write this and I could understand that you may think that but I am being compleatly honest about it. If i feel like I am uncofortable in this conversation then i will stop replying on this message.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

This topic is on the road to nowhere and should be locked IMO before anyone gets more offended than they already are.


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

I thought maybe we could talk some sense into Jessica, or at least help her through the struggles of breeding. Larry's right though, this thread isn't helping any. I'll let another admin decide whether to lock it or not.

Jessica, if you do need help, please make a different thread and we will do our best. I sincerely hope that no drama will come of you only trying to get the knowledge you need to keep your hedgies healthy.


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## JLF1995 (Jun 22, 2011)

I hope so too, thank you a ton LizardGirl. You have helped me so.


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

LarryT said:


> This topic is on the road to nowhere and should be locked IMO before anyone gets more offended than they already are.


I agree with Larry.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Before I close this, I would like to point out that it has always been my understanding that you have to be 18 years old before you can become USDA licensed. Obviously your 14 year old friend cannot have a USDA license in her name.


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