# Ingredients to watch out for in Kibble (Cancer/LHD/etc)



## Nell (Aug 26, 2010)

Ok, I'm noticing threads that mention cancer agents which I didn't take into account prior to creating my first mix for my hedgehog. 

I want this thread to be a compilation point for threatening agents in kibble to watch out for. 

So far I've gathered: 
- Any by products
-Animal digest
-"Animal fat"
-Blood Meal
-Beet pulp
- Pea hulls
- Brewer's rice
- Wheat gluten
-Whey
-Soybean
-Dairy Products
- Corn (this includes any kind of corn meal)
- BHA, BHT and Ethoxyquin -- these all cause cancer
-Sweeteners (corn syrup, sucrose, propylene glycol...)
- Any and all kinds of sugar. This includes fructose/dextrose. 
- Coloring additives
- Nuts and seeds

Does anyone know what other stuff to watch out for in kibble? 
Also, what are cancer causing additives besides BHA/BHT/Ethoxyquin?
If I have a fat % Higher than 10% am I risking my hedgehog getting FLD?

(Total newb to food... I used to think anything below 30% protein/15%fat would be adequate as long as it didn't have fillers)


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## HedgeMom (Nov 7, 2008)

Nell said:


> - Any by products
> -Animal digest
> -"Animal fat"
> -Blood Meal
> ...


Most of these as ingredients are not bad if they appear in a high quality food. Animal fat is fine, if it's a named fat like chicken. Beet pulp, pea hulls and brewer's rice are fiber sources. Not the best fiber but in a decent diet they aren't unsafe.

Corn is perfectly safe for hedgehogs and fine as an ingredient in a holistic food. It's just not good as the first ingredient or in multiple forms.

Nuts and seeds are a chocking hazard but in food as a ground up ingredient they are perfectly safe.

What exactly is wrong with corn syrup?

Rather than asking what ingredients are "bad", stick to purchasing quality recommended foods and you won't need to worry about it.


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## Nell (Aug 26, 2010)

It isn't that easy for me at least, as far as reccomended food goes.
This forum reccomends Blue Buffalo Spa, Chicken Soup, and Natural balance, for example, my vet actually reccomends AGAINST feeding these because the brands "have yet to become well known/recognized" even if he couldn't find any objections about the ingredients. 

As far as I know, hedgehogs do not handle sweeteners well (the default hedgehog diet has no sugary stuff as far as I know, so maybe their pancreas isn't used to dealing with the stuff) , and according to my vet corn as well as their biproducts contribute to obesity.


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## HedgeMom (Nov 7, 2008)

Nell said:


> It isn't that easy for me at least, as far as reccomended food goes.
> This forum reccomends Blue Buffalo Spa, Chicken Soup, and Natural balance, for example, my vet actually reccomends AGAINST feeding these because the brands "have yet to become well known/recognized" even if he couldn't find any objections about the ingredients.


So your vet is saying "It's not popular so you shouldn't feed it"? Then your vet is a moron. And asking a vet for nutritional advice is like asking the school crossing guard for investment advice. Vets know very little about animal nutrition (unless they ALSO got a nutritionist degree) and are the last source you trust for that.



Nell said:


> IAs far as I know, hedgehogs do not handle sweeteners well (the default hedgehog diet has no sugary stuff as far as I know, so maybe their pancreas isn't used to dealing with the stuff) , and according to my vet corn as well as their biproducts contribute to obesity.


Hedgehogs are fine with "sugary" things. Their pancreas works perfectly well and obesity in hedgehogs isn't really much of an issue. Every hedgehog I've ever owned has loved their fruits and fruit sugar is no different than white sugar.

Now I wouldn't feed lollipops or fudge to a hedgehog but sugars occurring naturally in fruits and as one of the last few ingredients in a dry food is fine.

It is as simple as picking a few foods off the healthy food list and using that as your mix. I don't agree with those who say you need a cheap food in the mix but that seems to be the popular trend. Logically it makes zero sense but it's the fancy right now.


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## shealynn87 (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree with hedgemom, the main reason these food are not popular is because they are not cheap and at every grocery store. It wasn't until recently that people started wondering if the food they give their pets were good for them. what pet food people fed their pets was based on will they eat it and is their anything cheaper I can get them to eat? That is why non of the well recognized are on the list, they were made from the cheapest most flavorful things they could put together and call it food. Now that Americans are becoming more concerned about their own diets they are also becoming more concerned about their pet's diets which opens up a new market for healthy holistic pet food.
Also if you take out all of the grains from the food the protein:fat ratio becomes out of balance (way too much protein not enough fat), I searched the healthy pet stores and every grain free product was like that. 

The vet I went to recommended that I feed my hedgehog mostly insects because by nature she is an insectivore, until I explained that insects typically used as treats and high quality cat food was the recommended stable. Then she acted like she was the one to tell me that and recommend some very poor quality well recognized foods. She also told me to never free feed do to how easily hedgehogs become obese. So I personally would not put much weight in a vets nutritional advice unless they had logic or proof to back up their statements.

I'm glad that you are concerned about your hedgies health. Just keep in mind moderation and balance is key and seems to be what the recommended food list is based off of. The list was created by a group of people who have been working with our little friends for a very long time and some of them have handled way more than we could imagine. They love their hedgehogs and from from what I have seen on this forum compared to others they would always error on the side of caution. So I highly doubt they would recommend a food that would have negative effects on our pets ( not to say they aren't learning right along with the rest of us, they just have way more experience).


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## FiaSpice (Jan 16, 2009)

Nell said:


> It isn't that easy for me at least, as far as reccomended food goes.
> This forum reccomends *Blue Buffalo Spa*, Chicken Soup, and Natural balance, for example, my vet actually reccomends AGAINST feeding these because the brands "have yet to become well known/recognized" even if he couldn't find any objections about the ingredients.


I guess your vet doesn't watch TV a lot because since a month ago, I start to see more and more Blue advert on TV.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Hedgemom and Shealynn I don't want you to think that I disagree with anything you have said in particular however I don't think these answers are relevant to the point of this post as I understand it. (Neil please correct me if my assumptions are wrong). I'm not saying they weren't relevant answers to a general nutritional inquiry and they were totally relevant on the general topic of nutrition. But Neil has every right to open a discussion about the bad ingredients in foods that you should stay away from. Not everyone has access to many of the foods on the food list so shouldn't we discuss what makes foods good and bad so that members can be educated and find good foods that may not be on the list. 

If I was Neil and I had started this post hoping for an educational and legitimate discussion I would feel shut down. I might be feeling overly sensitive today so maybe I'm reading too much into your posts so I'm sorry if this is coming off as a really over the top response. 

In the original post Neil never once says all of the things on his list can't be in foods at all but instead says they are things to "watch out for". I agree that not all of those things are harmful if they are found in a healthy food. Some of the ingredients I didn't know would be considered bad and I would do some research on just how bad they are before commenting specifically. 

Hedgemom I know that you and I disagree about exactly how bad corn is. I will not buy foods with corn in them. Partially because it is an unnecessary ingredient that doesn't add much nutritional value and also because I don't want to support a cat food company that puts corn in their food. Corn is a totally unacceptable ingredient for cats (in my opinion) so I don't support companies that use it. I know it's probably not as unacceptable for hedgehogs but the food company doesn't know I'm feeding a hedgehog. 

I agree that vets don't usually know what they are talking about when it comes to nutrition but Neil's vet didn't give him any really bad advice so doesn't really deserve to be attacked. Well known and recognized is not the same as popular. I take it to mean that the company has been around long enough that people that know stuff about pet food trust their products. I don't know if I'm right or not or how long any of those companies have been around but it is a legitimate concern. If I was deliberating between two good foods with good listed ingredients and good levels of fat and protein I would go for the company that is more established and well known rather than a new company that might be unreliable (what if they change their ingredients, go out of stock because they can't keep up with demand, go out of business, what if they lied about their ingredients to save money?) 

Neil's vet was also right about corn contributing to obesity, at least for cats this is the case and it might be true of hedgehogs too. 

"animal fat" listed exactly like that is bad 

chicken fat preserved with mixed tocopherals (sp) as a 4th or 5th ingredient is good. 

I don't know who brought up grain free food but but it is inappropriate for hedgehogs as it is too high in protein. There are good sources of grain and fiber though that are better than the ones to watch out for in Neil's list. 

If we were really going to have a serious discussion about this we could have a whole thread for each of these ingredients because there are so many different opinions about food and so much to learn. 

Personally I would just like to continue the discussion about things to watch out for. We could have different classifications one for ingredients that should not be in a food at all, one for ingredients that are not great but ok in small amounts (ie not in the top five), and one for good ingredients. I'm sure that none of us are experts on food but a real discussion about ingredients would be beneficial and educational for everyone.


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## Nell (Aug 26, 2010)

I don't really feel shut away. I expect people to disagree on ingredients because as far as I can tell hedgehog nutrition hasn't been as widely studied as cats/dogs (I think, I may be wrong on this too). I'm trying to learn not only the what, but the why, that's all.

The ingredients listed on the OP are a direct quote from a thread named "What NOT to feed a hedgehog". I saw them, I didn't know about them, I asked my vet and he corroborated the information. I then was concerned there might be more stuff I don't know about and that others might want to keep in mind, so I made this thread since I didn't find anything similar.

Also, if I can't ask a vet about nutritional advice, then I'm even more at a loss. Aren't vets the ones that grant credibility to a brand by reccomending it? If I knew an exotic pet dietitian I'd likely go to them with questions, but so far my vet and this forum are my main sources of knowledge. 

If people disagree, then it helps me figure out both sides of the issue behind reccomending against certain ingredients and I can feel more confident about my decision that way. (I get to know what is not good, and WHY it isn't good)

I made my mix without knowing about these ingredients, and now I feel I need to research deeper on nutrition, this being one of the main points. I want to revise my mix and make sure it's solid before I start experimenting with supplements/treats.


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## jinglesharks (Jun 15, 2010)

Nell said:


> I don't really feel shut away. I expect people to disagree on ingredients because as far as I can tell hedgehog nutrition hasn't been as widely studied as cats/dogs (I think, I may be wrong on this too). I'm trying to learn not only the what, but the why, that's all.
> 
> The ingredients listed on the OP are a direct quote from a thread named "What NOT to feed a hedgehog". I saw them, I didn't know about them, I asked my vet and he corroborated the information. I then was concerned there might be more stuff I don't know about and that others might want to keep in mind, so I made this thread since I didn't find anything similar.
> 
> ...


I hate to confirm it, but really, vets aren't often a good source of information about food. My vet has recommended a lower quality food for Pepper every time I bring him in- coincidentally, it's the one they sell. Your vet could be different, but still, that doesn't mean they have the knowledge. Heck, really nobody has all the knowledge when it comes to hedgehog nutrition. But I would trust this forum and the knowledgeable breeders on it before I trusted a vet, unless I knew they either had a lot of background in hedgies or nutrition.


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## shealynn87 (Jun 6, 2010)

Hedgielover It was not my intention to shut anyone out and I am glad you pointed it out to me that I might have come off that way. I am also very glad, Nell, that you weren't offended. I guess my response was more directed toward the vet recommending against feeding the brands that seem more concerned about proper diet just because they are are not well known. All of the brands that I would consider "well known" have many of the things Nell mentioned on the list not to feed hedgies. 
I have no problem with an open discussion on what ingredients to look out for when buying food.


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## Nell (Aug 26, 2010)

Getting back in topic. Here's what I understand about the following. Feel free to agree/disagree or bring new ingredients to the table.

- Any* by products*: Wiki:


> Animal by-products are biodegradable wastes consisting of animal carcases, parts of animal carcases, products of animal origin which are not intended for human consumption, includes catering waste (all waste food from restaurants, catering facilities, central kitchens, slaughterhouses and household kitchens).


What I extract: This is considered filler, involves the usually discarded parts of an animal's carcass which allows for a cheap means of boosting nutritional values. 

-*Animal digest*: From http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php ... ngredients


> A cooked-down broth made from unspecified parts of unspecified animals. The animals used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on.


What I extract: Chemically processed pastiche of carcasses of unspecified sources that could harbour all sorts of unhealthy components. Seems to be a cheap filler used to boost protein numbers.

*-"Animal fat" * From http://www.feedmypet.com/dog-food-comparison.html


> Animal Fat: Animal fat is a "generic" fat source that is most often made up of rendered animal fat, restaurant grease, or other oils too rancid or deemed inedible for humans. Look for a named fat source, such as poultry or chicken fat, that is naturally preserved.


What I extract: It isn't specified what animal it belongs to. It could be anything, pretty much. best to look for a named fat source. 

*-Blood Meal* From http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php ... ngredients



> AAFCO: Blood Meal is produced from clean, fresh animal blood, exclusive of all extraneous material such as hair, stomach belchings and urine except as might occur unavoidably in good manufacturing process. A large portion of the moisture is usually removed by a mechanical dewatering process or by condensing by cooking to a semi-solid state. The semi-solid blood mass is then transferred to a rapid drying facility where the more tightly bound water is rapidly removed. The minimum biological activity of lysine shall be 80%.
> 
> An inexpensive protein booster. You have no way of knowing what type of animal the blood came from or what residues of hormones, medications or other substances are in this product. It has a better use as fertilizer than as a dog food ingredient.


What I extract: Low quality protein booster of dubious source that could contain hormones and chemicals of all sorts.

*-Beet pulp: * From http://www.optimalpetfoods.com/index.ph ... s-to-avoid



> Dried Beet Pulp is the left over residue from the extraction of sugar in the production of table sugar. It is used as a filler. Note that the source of dried beet pulp is from sugar beets, not red beets.


What I extract: Seems to be a cheap filler, again. I found a lot of mixed feelings towards beet pulp. Is the use of sugar beets harmful to hedgehogs?

*- Hulls:* From what I extracted from my conversation with my vet, hulls of any kind are cheap manufacturing byproducts used to boost fiber percentages in food, that are difficult to digest. 
I know, vets aren't the best sources of advice, so feel free to challenge this. 

*- Brewer's rice*  http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php ... ngredients


> Also appears in ingredient lists as ground Brewers Rice.
> 
> AAFCO: The small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice.
> 
> A processed rice product that is missing many of the nutrients contained in whole ground rice and brown rice. Contrary to what many pet food companies want to make you believe, this is not a high quality ingredient, just much cheaper than whole grain rice.


What I extract: Cheap filler with no nutritional value. 

*- Wheat gluten* From http://www.optimalpetfoods.com/index.ph ... s-to-avoid


> Wheat gluten is also used as an inexpensive protein source in pet foods. Wheat gluten contamination was the cause of the massive 2007 Menu Foods pet food recall, which caused a countless numbers of companion animals to suffer from kidney failure, debilitation and death.


What I extract: Cheap meat substitute that may cause adverse conditions.

*- Corn* (this includes any kind of corn meal) This is the touchy one. 
What I got from a conversation with my vet: Corn is a cheap ingredient that is difficult to digest by most companion animals. Corn nutritionally consists predominantly of carbohydrates, and contributes heavily to obesity in hedgehogs.

From http://www.optimalpetfoods.com/index.ph ... s-to-avoid


> Years ago pet food manufacturers discovered that pets adore the sweet taste of corn. Corn is one of the most heavily subsidized crops in agriculture, making its market price lower than the cost of producing the corn.
> 
> The gluten in corn is used as an inferior protein source in pet foods. Corn protein in itself is not a complete protein source and must be balanced with animal proteins to create a usable amino acid profile for pets. [10]
> 
> ...


What I extract: I need to hear from pro-corn people in this forum. Thus far I don't see any reason not to avoid corn in pet food. It's junk food. 
*
- BHA, BHT and Ethoxyquin *-- these all cause (edit: Have been linked to) cancer
http://www.optimalpetfoods.com/index.ph ... s-to-avoid



> These powerful chemicals are used as preservatives and to prevent rancidization of fats.
> 
> BHA (Butylated Hydroxyanisole) and BHT (Butylated Hydroxytoluene) are petroleum derived preservatives used in food and hygeine products. TBHQ (tertiary butylhydroquinone) is another petroleum derived preservative.


What I extract: Petroleum derived preservatives in food. Not good.
*
-Sweeteners *(corn syrup, sucrose, propylene glycol...)
http://www.feedmypet.com/dog-food-comparison.html


> Sweeteners: Sweeteners such as corn syrup, sugar, and cane mallases are usually added to lower quality foods to increase their appeal. Dietary sugars can aggrevate health problems, including diabetes.


http://www.optimalpetfoods.com/index.ph ... s-to-avoid


> Sugar
> 
> Table sugar is often used to perk interest in the unsavory concoctions pet food manufacturers make. There is no reason for added sugar to be placed in pet food, other than the reason mentioned.


http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php ... ngredients



> Sugar
> 
> Can include sucrose, cane sugar, caramel, corn syrup and others.
> Sugar or sweetener is an absolutely unnecessary ingredient in pet foods, added to make the product more attractive. Continuous intake can promote hypoglycemia, obesity, nervousness, cataracts, tooth decay, arthritis and allergies. Pets also get addicted to foods that contain sugars, so it can be a tough piece of work to make them eat something healthier.


What I extract: Hazardous to health on a long term basis if made part of a regular diet. 
Before you call me out on using a dog website. I don't see how hedgehogs would eat steady amounts of sugar/sweets in the wild besides the occasional fruit and insects.


*- Coloring additives*
http://www.optimalpetfoods.com/index.ph ... s-to-avoid



> Artificial Colours
> 
> Coloured kibble bits are not for the benefit of the dog or cat, they are in fact to make them more appealing to you!
> 
> ...


What I extract: They are unnecessary. May be linked to adverse health effects.

*- Nuts and seeds*

http://wiki.hedgehogcentral.com/tiki-in ... page=Toxic

What I extract: They're toxic to hedgehogs, therefore should not be in hedgehog kibble...

-------------------------

Comments welcome. I'm pretty sure people will have something to say.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

That was a very informative post. I agree with everything. Learned something new about beet pulp. 

I agree with you about the sugar. I believe on the fruit and veggies list it warns against feeding too many fruits because of the high sugar content. Nothing wrong with fruit sugar in moderation but I don't see why anyone would argue that it should be added to the kibble. 

Before everyone goes on about diets that are too rich and too high in protein. There are cat foods with lots of more easily digestible grains, and lots of veggies. Such cat foods would not have any of the above ingredients but would not be too rich. There are also other ways to add fiber to a hedgehog's diet besides cat food such as adding baby cereal or grape nuts cereal.

The argument I've heard for corn is that if it is low down in the ingredients in a food that has otherwise good ingredients then it is not harmful. 


Once again your post was awesome, impressive research.

edit: one more thing, not all nuts and seeds are toxic (some people give peanut butter as a rare treat) but they are a choking hazard.


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## Nell (Aug 26, 2010)

K, apparently Whey, Sugar/Fructose/dextrose, dairy products and Soybean also need to be here. I'll edit the main post.


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## Mary (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow Nell, you sure do your research! :mrgreen:

Edit: I had no font color


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