# Poor Puff has more health problems :(



## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

My poor sweet little Puff. After 8 days worth of antibiotic to see if an infection was causing her head tilt, she seemed to be doing a little better. Still hasn't used her wheel in weeks, is eating and drinking on her own (has a hard time with her normal sized kibble so is eating some normal kibble but mostly Royal canin babycat - Vet has checked her mouth multiple times and it's fine). Her poop however had gone from mucousy green to really really green and even a bit tarry? despite giving her acidophilus with her antibiotics.

Well we went back to the vet for a checkup on Saturday and the vet suggested a fecal swab and some bloodwork. Puff was kind enough to poop in her sleepy bag for the fecal sample but would only give the vet a few drops of blood - enough for a CBC (complete blood count) but not a basic panel. The vet did not want to risk anaesthetic at this point, and neither did I so we decided to see what those results were.

I just got the results today and her bloodwork showed normal White Blood Cells so no infection, but her red blood cells were nucleiated and thus immature, indicating Anemia or recovering from anemia. The vet was very complexed by this as we both do not believe Puff to have Anemia or to have ever had it.

Her stool sample was very interesting... there were a ton of White blood cells in it. The vet is worried something may be going on with her digestive tract - so she has prescribed me hedgehog pepto bismol (sulfate I believe she said it was called) and I'm picking that up tomorrow. Puff is also on Benebac for her green stool and this seems to be helping.


I'm just wondering if anyone has had experience with these symptoms? Or any insight at all on what to do next?

I kind of just want to know what's going on at this point... but at the same time is it worth putting Puff under to get full bloodwork and/or xrays?


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm sorry I can't help with any of it, but I just wanted to let you know I've been thinking of you & Puff & I really hope she gets better soon.


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## owenhedgehog (Jan 26, 2009)

snufflepuff, so sorry to hear about Puff's health issues. We send lots of love, encouragement and strength to you.


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

I am so sorry about Snufflepuff. I am thinking about humans here: anemia? Could there be more going on in the gastrointestinal tract? Malabsorbtion? A mass? The tarry sounds like there could be some blood in her feces. But also cannot Pepto turn the stool greenish black? Is her anemia nutritional?


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

thank you everyone 



shetland said:


> I am so sorry about Snufflepuff. I am thinking about humans here: anemia? Could there be more going on in the gastrointestinal tract? Malabsorbtion? A mass? The tarry sounds like there could be some blood in her feces. But also cannot Pepto turn the stool greenish black? Is her anemia nutritional?


That's a really interesting thought Shetland. The vet said she suspected maybe Inflammatory bowel disease or even possibly an ulcer of some sort in the tummy. Maybe Puff has been losing a bit of blood in the stool and did have anemia. She thinks she has/is recovering from anemia if that is the case.

Puff is actually starting the sulfate (pepto) tonight though so that's not what's causing the poop.

Puff has a re-check on Saturday to see how she's doing. If she's not any better we are going to further discuss whether it's worth it to gas her and do some xrays / full bloodwork. It's expensive, that's for sure  and the last thing I want is for her to die during the procedure. The vet is worried something could be going on with her liver too so anaesthetic could be really dangerous.

Obviously if it's not something treatable there's not much to do, I just want to know if it's something simple that can be managed with daily meds. I would hate to do nothing and have it be something treatble... but at the same time I can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars just to find out that's it's terminal.

The whole situation really sucks


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Was there any bacteria or red blood cells found in her stool sample? 

Green stools can be caused by the antibiotic. Cooper has nasty green stools despite being on probiotics. His get worse the longer he is on the antibiotics. They get very green and eventually mucousy. He just came off of antibiotics this week and they cleared up within 48 hrs with continued probiotic support.

Have you gotten anything out of Snuff's ears? Was she on just oral antibiotics or also on ear drops?

Cooper too is suffering from what we hope is an ear infection. He has head tilt, and shows signs of pain when you touch around his right ear (he used to love being rubbed behind his ear). He also hasn't used his wheel in weeks and is having serious mobility problems. He was on a round of antibiotics, oral and ear drops, and he got better for a bit, then got worse. He is now off of antibiotics for 5 days so that we can try to get a clean sample from his ears. The samples we have taken previously yield a lot of bacteria and the last sample had something new, something that looks like tiny fragmented hairs, which could possibly be fungal. Our next step is to knock him out, see whats going on deep in his ear and get a sample for a culture and sensitivity. My hope is that something will grow on the culture and that this is still treatable. I am really hoping that doc doesn't find evidence of a tumor in that ear (Cooper has had 2 benign masses removed already, so he has a history of tumors). I haven't had blood work or fecal done yet.

I hope you can find something that is treatable for Puff.

I feel your pain at the moment. I have 2 sick hedgehogs, 1 with cancer and Cooper is unknown at this point, and it does really suck.


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks Kalandra! 

Puff actually had the really bad green stool before the anitbiotics, although they did make it worse for sure. However she has now been off of the antibiotic for 5 or 6 days and the poop is still green and mucousy/tarry. 

She was only on the antibiotic and not ear drops, because she didn't have any gunk in her ears for them to test, they both looked really clean and they couldn't get any further in. So the vet doesn't really think it is her ear at this point. Her head tilt is still slightly there but she's just walking stiff all around now, so we suspect something else might be going on entirely.

It was just the white blood cells found in the stool sample I was told, but I'll ask again when we go for a re-check on Saturday to see if there was anything else.

That's interesting about knocking them down to see if they can get a look inside the ear, and get a sample.

I'm wondering if that's what Puff needs. To be put under for as short of a time as possible, get her inner ear drums both examined and swabbed and get enough blood to run a basic blood panel / possibly some xrays. I will see how she's doing when we go in on Saturday, but if she's not getting any better I may just have to risk it. 

I am so sorry to hear about both of your hedgehogs  It's so tough when they are so ill and you are trying to balance paying for procedures with risks of those procedures and whether or not they are living a good enough quality of life to keep going  

I wish the best for both of your hedgehogs too!


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

poor darling Puff.  

please keep us posted.


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm not sure what to do about Puff anymore.

All she does is sleep, comes out to eat a bit of food, drink some water, then goes back to sleep. She hasn't touchd her wheel in over a month. Her head tilt seems worse and her poop, although it is looking better with the Sulcrate every 8 hours and the bene-bac probiotic, is so tiny. It's like she hardly poops anymore. They are just teeny tiny little pieces. And when you "dissect" them, they are still green. Some even look grey. 

She has a vet appointment tomorrow at 3:20... but I'm starting to wonder if she is living a quality life. She's not in pain as far as I can tell. But all she wants to do is sleep.

I am so tempted to say to the vet knock her out, let's do full bloodwork, an xray and look inside her ears /take swabs. But that would run me about $500-600 and it is very likely the anaesthetic would kill her at this point. Or we could find tumours, or something awful and then I'd be out $600 and still end up having to euthanize.

I'm not sure if I want to keep her going like this either, though. But it feels too soon to euthanize... although at the same time it seems cruel to just sit around and wait for her to give up, which she all but has. 

I will see how the vet visit goes tomorrow. Sigh.


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry. I wish I could help. I'll be thinking of both you & Puff & I hope that something can be done for her.


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## tie-dye hedgie (Dec 19, 2009)

Aww, I am so, very sorry to hear about Puff's continuing health issues. I'll be thinking positive vibes for you and her.


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## nationofamanda (Jan 19, 2010)

i hope she feels better soon. give her a hug for me.


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

so sorry to hear there's no improvement. believe me, i know the helplessness.


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

Thank you all  

I will update after her vet visit tomorrow. 

One thing I've noticed is that she's sleeping a lot more soundly... this morning I honestly thought she was dead... Is this an indication of general unwellness? 

I've been keeping her extra warm and she's not cool to the touch so it's not hibernation, It just takes a lot to wake her up now.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm sorry Puff is having continued problems. 

I've always found sleeping more soundly is age related. Yes, it can be illness too but I wouldn't put it all down to her being ill.

I don't think I'd give up on her yet. She is coming off of antibiotic and it can make them feel really yucky until their systems get back to normal. As long as she is willingly eating on her own, that is a good sign. It's when they stop eating completely that we know they are very sick and/or have given up. 

How co-operative is she at the vet? Will she allow him to palpate her to check for lumps and tumours? 

Doing further testing is a difficult decision. If she is having liver issues, gassing her is not a ideal. It's a tough decision and basically you have to do what is best for her without going broke in the process. 

Good luck. Sending her prayers.


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

I send all my prayers an hope to you and your little baby hedgie. I am in no way intending to be offensive; but I would be more than happy to contribute to any fund for little Puff. I have done this before for owners as dedicated as yourself to help in the diagnosis and/or treatment of little ones.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm so sorry, snuff...I'm sure whatever you decide will be right for you both. you obviously love Puff and don't want her to suffer. 

Shetland, you are a sweetheart. Good karma for you!!


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Good luck at the vet today. I hope your vet can help give you some answers. Be very honest with your vet and ask the questions you ask here. Ask doc if he thinks it is time.

If Puff still gets up on her own to go eat and drink, she is still fighting. Look in her eyes. Are they bright and alert? Or have they gone dull and it doesn't look like she is there anymore? Talk to her and let her help guide you. 

Have you arrange items in Puff's cage to make mobility easier? I built corridors in Cooper's. He pretty much walks around the outside edge of his cage to get places. He has walls on both sides of his body to lean against should he start to stumble. The wall of his cage forms one side, the other has a variety of items arranged. From his pigloo, cuddle cup, fleece covered oatmeal containers, wheel, etc. 

Quills crossed here that doc will find something to help today.


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

Thank you everyone for your kind words and advice  

She hasn't been on an antibiotic for a few weeks now, Nancy so I think that's probably out of her system by now. She is still eating and drinking and she seems happy? What really bothers me is that she twitches all over the place. Like when she's trying to walk to her dish or even trying to eat a piece of food she violently shakes her head back and forth, it's like she has some neurological problem? I know something's wrong with her, it's just so frustrating now knowing what.  The technicans at the vets are really good and they scruff her, so the vet has been looking her mouth (no tumours) and palpating her whole body (nothing that she can feel yet) everytime we go.

Shetland you are far too kind!  I do have have the funds currently to pay for it, it's just my emergency "pet" fund is for my other hedgehogs, kitty and puppy too, and with my luck someone else would get sick right after, sigh  I will discuss pricing with the vet today and hopefully come up with a plan, though. 

Thanks MissC, I don't think she's suffering yet, it just pains me to see her so disoriented and unable to function properly. But I guess the important thing is that she is still functioning, still eating, still drinking, still going to the bathroom. 

Thanks Kalandra. She hasn't given up, so I know she still wants to live. What I can't do is sit here and do nothing and just watch her deteriorate. It's like I need to know what it is. If it's a tumor or a neurological disorder then fine, I'll support her until it's her time, but if it's something treatable like an ulcer and an ear problem then I feel so awful sitting here doing nothing when I could be doing something. 

Corridors sounds like a really good idea... do you have any pictures? I would love to do that for her, I'm just not sure how...


I think I may risk the tests today... so keep your fingers crossed that she pulls through the anaesthetic if I do.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

We're right there with you.


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

So it turns out Puff is actually doing a lot better  

We actually got her walking at the vet and her head tilt isn't too bad and her overall motility isn't too bad either. Tests reveal she doesn't have an active infection so no more antibiotics are needed but the head tilt probably won't ever go away. The vet also thinks she may be partially deaf and that's why she's sleeping so soundly.

Her poops are showing improvement as well slowly so for now we're just going to continue coating her tummy with the sulcrate and giving her the bene-bac at night. I'm also syringing her pumpkin now too because the extra fibre is good for tummy issues.

I asked more about the blood and fecal results and the vet says they show that Puff had anemia and that she has white blood cells in her stool which combined makes the vet think she had some kind of infection or bowel disorder. She might even have inflammatory bowel disease, but the treatment is steroids and we don't want to risk that just that.

So after an exam of no changes to her mouth/gums and no other lumps/bumps noted, we were sent home to monitor and they will call me in a week to check on her and we'll go from there. Will probably retest the blood and stool in a couple weeks time to see how that's going but as far as further testing goes the vet says what we really need is a MRI to see the inner ear (which is risky re: sedation) and a biopsy of the bowels to see what's happening digestively (super risky) and that she didn't think an xray or putting her under for other tests was worth it at this point.


I feel a lot better that the vet says she's improving. It's so hard to tell at home because they hide illness so well and she never wants to be out long enough or walk far enough for me to see an improvement. But for now I can breathe and watch her closely and just hope for the best!


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

That is good news. Telling how they are doing is extremely difficult sometimes. When they get really sick you tend to spend even more time with them, and may miss the subtle changes, whether they are good or bad.

If you have the ability, take videos from her every few days and compare them. I place a piece of fleece on the floor, put Cooper on it and video him. You'll get a better sense of how they are doing if you can see what they were like a few days ago.

I also take photos every few days when I have one that I'm monitoring a wound or other problem. It really can help you see the changes. Plus you can always send them to someone else to review too.


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm so glad Puff is doing better! I hope she continues to improve.  

Kalandra - that's a wonderful idea, I will try & remember it.


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

I am so happy your baby is doing better! Happy Mother's Day to you!!!!!!!!!!!


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

i second Kalandra's suggestion about making videos and photos to monitor the progress.


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks for that suggestion! I will do it and that way I can see the improvements too!


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm a huge advocate of recording visually these type of things. When we want to see improvement I think we sometimes do. Photographic and video evidence doesn't tend to lie. Plus, as I mentioned, you can send it to a detached party for a second opinion. Plus I send images to my vet occasionally to show him how we are doing. Whether it is good news or bad.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I meant to reply on this earlier to send lots of good thoughts to you and Puff, but glad to hear that she's doing better! Lily and I will still send good thoughts that she keeps improving!


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks everyone!  

Puff is holding steady. Her poops are very thin though,
Like spaghetti thin? I know in ferrets this can be a sign of a partial intestinal obstruction, so is it possible puff has a tumor in her intestines?

The vet said short of a biopsy of the intestine there's not much we can do.

But I'm just enjoying the time we have and Hoping that puff hangs on.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

If doc looks at a fecal sample does he see any abnormal cells? One of mine had colon cancer. Her stools didn't get thin, just extremely loose and she had diarrhea most of the time. We knew she had cancer only in that she had cancer cells showing up in her stool. It was verified during a gross necropsy.

Hopefully whatever is going on will correct itself and she won't have cancer. If she does have cancer, hopefully it will be slow to progress and you will continue to have good quality time together.

Is her mobility getting better?


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## newfie_nurse (Apr 28, 2011)

I dont know alot about hedgies yet, but I am a nurse. 
Blackish stools do mean blood, and green means bile from gallbladder or gastric emptying (meaning the food just goes thru the system not fully getting obsorbed and there is an infulx of acid) . This can be from a stomach bug or a variety of things including sickness and stress. 
Acidophilus as great as it is can sometimes make things worse. If a human or animal are not used to taking it, it can cause diarrhea and stomach and bowel issues. As well if it is an issue such as irritable bowel or stomach bugs, acidophilus can make it worse and in some cases cause irriation, which is where the blood may come from.
Peptobismol will help with slowing acid production, pain and bloating. But I would suggest not giving acidophilus for a few days to see if it helps as well. As well things like berries, and bananas should be limited. Kind of a bland diet for a few days. I am sure if it works in other animals and humans there may be some use for hedgehogs.. I dont know your lil ones whole story, but I hope it helps!!


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Just to note, if you choose to use Pepto-Bismol, make certain it does not contain salicylates, which is aspirin. Apparently, there is a pet version.


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

Kalandra said:


> If doc looks at a fecal sample does he see any abnormal cells? One of mine had colon cancer. Her stools didn't get thin, just extremely loose and she had diarrhea most of the time. We knew she had cancer only in that she had cancer cells showing up in her stool. It was verified during a gross necropsy.
> 
> Hopefully whatever is going on will correct itself and she won't have cancer. If she does have cancer, hopefully it will be slow to progress and you will continue to have good quality time together.
> 
> Is her mobility getting better?


There were just white blood cells in the stool sample, nothing else noteable. Not sure what this means?

As far as mobility goes, no change really. It's not noteably better or noteably worse, so I guess that's good?



newfie_nurse said:


> I dont know alot about hedgies yet, but I am a nurse.
> Blackish stools do mean blood, and green means bile from gallbladder or gastric emptying (meaning the food just goes thru the system not fully getting obsorbed and there is an infulx of acid) . This can be from a stomach bug or a variety of things including sickness and stress.
> Acidophilus as great as it is can sometimes make things worse. If a human or animal are not used to taking it, it can cause diarrhea and stomach and bowel issues. As well if it is an issue such as irritable bowel or stomach bugs, acidophilus can make it worse and in some cases cause irriation, which is where the blood may come from.
> Peptobismol will help with slowing acid production, pain and bloating. But I would suggest not giving acidophilus for a few days to see if it helps as well. As well things like berries, and bananas should be limited. Kind of a bland diet for a few days. I am sure if it works in other animals and humans there may be some use for hedgehogs.. I dont know your lil ones whole story, but I hope it helps!!


Thanks for the insight! I'm not a nurse but I've got a lot of first aid training (basically a level below a paramedic) and I work at a vet clinic so all of the advice you've given definitely applies to hedgehogs too  She's not taking the sulcrate anymore (that's "pepto bismol" for hedgehogs according to my vet) and she's only getting the bene-bac every other day now for maintenance. She's had acdiophilus countless times before (every time she goes on antibiotics, which sadly has been quite a few times) so she's used to it. And the bene-bac has really helped. The poop looks normal in colour now (no more black tarry or green ickyness) just really thin.

PS I totally sold you a bucket wheel  glad you found your way to this forum!!  And my other female hedgehog is named Chloe too! Small world! :lol:



Nancy said:


> Just to note, if you choose to use Pepto-Bismol, make certain it does not contain salicylates, which is aspirin. Apparently, there is a pet version.


It's just plain Sulcrate (the vet just described it as pepto bismol for hedgehogs so that's why I was calling it that :lol: ) She's not taking it anymore so we'll see how the poopies go.

Fingers crossed  Thanks all for the kind thoughts and advice!


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