# random questions. :)



## hellohedgie (Aug 9, 2010)

hi.  i am a new hedgehog owner, we got our little one back in June. i've been researching on this forum for some basic knowledge on care & such. this might be a tad bit random & maybe long-ish.. but, bare with me... when we got our hedgie we started him out on some sort of commercial food.. i don't recall the name right off. but after maybe a few weeks on that i believe he had a issue one night.. when he went to get up to come out to eat, he was all wobbly and couldn't stand right, he was all shaky and it freaked us out.. my first thought was that he had the wobbly hedgehog syndrome. so we took him to a 24 hour vet & she evaluated him and said she thought he might have just not been getting the nutrients he needed.. she suggested to feed him wet cat food, fruits, etc along with his food. so then i found this web site & i started checking out the cat food list.. i can't really make sense of it, its really confusing for me with the percentages and all lol.. i'm no good with math. so we got him the chicken soup for the cat lover's soul crunchy food. & we also supplement with a random mealworm here and there and some occasional fruits and such. and now he seems to be MUCH happier.. he is much more active and hes putting weight on (not too much though)  . now the other day we had to take him to another vet to get his nails cut... i was nervous to do them on our own. that vet was so rough with him though.  anyways.. she asked what we were feeding him & we told her catfood and she was like NO.. hedgehogs are nothing like cats at all, in fact they are more like ferrets. she told us to start feeding him Oxbow.

so pretty much i need help with nutrition.. like what in the world should i be feeding my little guy? i want him to be happy & healthy for as long as possible.

also any other tips or tidbits of info would be greatly appreciated.


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## Hedgehog Grove (Jul 21, 2010)

Please never take your hedgehog to that vet again. 

Firstly is she was rough in your eyes with your hedgehog and trimming nails then I feel sorry for the hedgehog.

Secondly for the food. The percentages are easy to work with, you look on the packet and it will say something like below:

Chicken Soup for the Cat Lovers Soul Adult
Crude Protein 30.0% Minimum
Crude Fat 20.0% Minimum
Crude Fiber 4.0% Maximum

You want the stay around these marks for %:

Protein - 32% or lower
Fat - 15% or lower
Fiber - higher the better 

Another reason to stay away from that vet is they have no idea what they are talking about. DO NOT feed the Oxbow. Hedgehogs are nothing like ferrets and their dietary requirements are vastly different. 

Did the vet mention the specific one to feed? All their products are not suitable to a hedgehog from what i can see.

*Edited to add more and spelling


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## Hedgehog Grove (Jul 21, 2010)

Also Welcome to HHC!

You will find a wealth of helpful information here and everyone here is always willing to help you with questions and advice.

Read all the stickies in each section. That will give you a good base knowledge starting point.

Another thing is to read through this book from our very own LG  It will give you some much useful information.

http://www.hedgehogbook.webs.com/petafricanhedgehogs-free.pdf

Also feel free to ask question about anything you are needing help with!


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## Hedgehog Grove (Jul 21, 2010)

Ah me again lol sorry forget some more stuff that come to mind 

Tell us a bit about your little guy, we would love to hear about him and see some photos of him.

A few questions as well 

Where did you get him from?

Does he have a wheel?

Is his cage at a steady temperature between 73F-80F 24/7?

Does he get 12-14hrs of light each day?

Another thing you can do is start slowly adding another high quality cat food. Everyone here generally has a mix or 3 or more high quality cat foods. WE have a mix of 6 

I recommend any of these:

Natural Balance Green Pea & Duck
Nutrience Lite (Canada only)
Now! Senior
Blue Buffalo Spa Select Weight Control
CSFCLS Light
Authority Adult Sensitive

When you introduce a new food, start slowly and only 1 new type of cat food at a time, it can take up to a month to fully add it in. Cut back say 5-10 of the CSFCLS kibble pieces every few days when you do this you also add back in add 5-10 pieces of the new cat food. Until you have a half/half mix


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## I<3Hejji (Aug 29, 2010)

The other members seem to have covered the food stuff, but it kind of sounds like the night your hedgehog was wobbly he might have been too cold. It is really important to avoid hibernation attempts by keeping his cage between 74-78 degrees, as well as making sure you have a light on for 12-14 hours a day all year round. Do you have heating/light set up for your pet? Also, I agree to never take your hedgehog to that vet again! So sorry you and your hedgie had to go through that!


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

Welcome to HHC! As you have just discovered, there is a lot of bad information out there. Good for you for doing the research & asking for help. 

From personal experience, I have found that the information the members present on this forum is of the highest quality. There are sound reasons behind every helpful suggestion. We learn from each other & the ultimate goal is to have healthy, happy hedgies & hedgie owners. 

I, also, wouldn't go back to that vet. If for nothing else, because you aren't comfortable with how they treated your hedgie. 

I was also overwhelmed a bit when I first started looking into the food. But just take it slowly. You are on the right path. I know it looks like there are so many choices. The first thing I did was to print out the list & go to my local pet supply & see what they had available. I highlighted those choices on my list & that helped me quite a bit. Since you need to introduce the new food gradually, you have time & don't have to rush into it all at once. 

Keep up the good work.


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## Puffers315 (Apr 19, 2010)

Indeed, not all vets and even web sites and worse, breeders can give bad information, I always say in the end it is up the owner to pick and choose what is right and good for their hedgehog.

Feed'em cat food, like everyone else said, they are not like a ferret. If we're wrong, then there's way too many people running around here with healthy and happy hedgehogs.  Hedgehog commercial food is also basically crap, some can be used as a filler but it shouldn't be a main diet.

Definitely seek out another vet, a good vet might have some information wrong but most know enough that a mixture of high quality cat food is what they should be eating.

Either way, PapilionRu hit the nail on the head, make sure to keep him warm within that 73 to 78 range, WHS usually occurs in older hedgehogs and there are so many things that can cause what looks like WHS. From what you said, he does sound like he had gotten cold. Search around the Forums and look up "Ceramic Heat Emitters" or CHEs, its a heat bulb device that gives off no light, as light can disturb them during the night. Daytime, they need that 12 hours worth of light from any old light, keeps their internal clock in check.

Welcome to HHC!


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## hellohedgie (Aug 9, 2010)

Okay I'm going to try & cover this in all one post (probably won't happen that way though.) Anyways..

Papilion - By the percentages I meant like percentage of each food to feed, sorry for the confusion. 

As for the Oxbow, she said that Oxbow made a Hedgehog food.. which I didn't see on the web site, but I didn't look too in-depth for it. She might have said it was an insectivore diet.. I'm pretty sure she said that they had a product directly made for Hedgies. I don't really remember, I was just ready to leave when she was trying to talk. :|

Thanks for the welcome.  Everyone seems so nice here, I'm very glad I've found this forum. 

I got my little guy from a pet store. I know thats not the best place to get one from. But I had been trying to get one for a while & happened upon him while on vacation.. I didn't get him while we were there because I had no where to keep him & buying him & supplies would have used up ALL of my money that I had with me. So, when I got back home I couldn't stop thinking about the little guy.. so I drove back to the place, 3 hours away to get him. 

He does have a wheel. He doesn't use it... well he does, but its just part of his running course to do laps around. He has a race track made out in his cage and he runs that furiously when hes up. Its so funny. 

As for the temp... I haven't got a thermometer in his cage. He stays at my BF's house & he keeps his heat pump set at 73 degrees or something along those lines.

We have him on a schedule for his "night" & "day". He gets covered up & the light goes out at the same time every evening & then he gets un-covered at the same time everyday.


Everyone else, the vet deal.. let me explain it a bit more... when we got to the vet, she came in & tried to cut his toenails & he balled up in a tight ball. After a few attempts to get him to un-ball... he wouldn't. So she used the sleeping gas stuff on him to get him to open up. Thats when she started being more rough with him. She used a hamster ball type thing to put him in & then they put the machine hose up to it to gas him. She would pull him in and out of that thing & I just kept hoping that it would be over soon. After about 30 minutes or so she FINALLY got his nails cut. I wish I would have said something at the time.. but I was scared to say anything at the risk of her doing anything to hurt him or anything like that. And since he was already half way gassed & went thru everything I didn't want to risk anything with him. She kept saying that she knew all about hedgehogs and that she saw very many there & then more of the assistants came in to see the hedgehog because they had never seen one!!! I was thinking if this woman is such a expert, shouldn't more of her assistants know what a hedgehog looks like?! At one time there were about 7 assistants in there & she just kept trying to like show off I guess I'd describe it. 

I just didn't like her. I'm trying to find us another vet to see.


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## shaelikestaquitos (Feb 2, 2010)

You MUST get a thermometer for his cage.
If the thermostat inside the house is set to 73, then it's too cold for the hedgehog. You might want to purchase a space heater or a CHE setup to bump up the heat in his cage.


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## Hedgehog Grove (Jul 21, 2010)

50/50 mix is good 

I've done some searching and Oxbow doesn't make any specific one for hedgehogs. They did a case study with Carnivore Care & Critical Care mix together at different ratios but this was for hedgehogs that need assisted feeding. Carnivore care is way too high in Protein @ 48% and Fat @ 33%/ Critical CAre is on the opposite end with too little Protein @ 16% and fat @ 3%. Even mixed together is definitely not a good idea as the hedgehog might prefer the Carnivore Care and well that is fatal.

What sort of wheel does he have, are you sure he doesn't use it at all for running in? Try the flour test if your unsure. sprinkle flour inside the wheel so there is a light dusting over the entire inside surface and then check it in the morning to see if there are footprints or if it has been untouched.

You should really get a digital thermometer for inside his cage, one that does the Max and Min temperatures reached. Also don't rely on the heat in the house to be sufficient for him. He really needs his own heating source whether that be a space heater or a CHE setup with costs about $100 to purchase all the pieces for it. Read this sticky for more information
http://hedgehogcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4579

If the temperature changes too much and isn't steady 24/7 the hedgehog can go into hibernation which is fatal if not caught straight away. This also applies to if it gets too cold been ever below 73F.

When you say you cover him up, does this mean something over his cage? He needs to have ventilation at all times and hedgehogs generally don't need to be covered up at night. Sometimes you get ones that won't come out to do their thing unless it is pitch black dark but that is not common. Also for light are you just using the window as the light for him? He needs to have a lamp or room light left on for him during the day as the daylight isn't enough and with winter coming the days are getting shorter and shorter.

One thing about the vet, she really doesn't know anything about hedgehogs. Where are you located and we can help you find a good vet.

Also I will mention that you can do his nails yourself, when you give him a bath, trim his nails while he is in the water. He would be too distracted and won't ball up with water around him.
Also you can use the top of his cage to help, just put him on top, have someone to help you with this way. Have the other person hold him so he doesn't wander off the cage. His legs will dangle in between them bars and you can grab each one and trim his nails.

Using the gas on a hedgehog can be fatal and should only every be used as a last resort.

Tell me if I have this right: the vet put him a a hampster ball and gassed him several times while trimming his nails and it took 30mins to do it? Did she regas him if he stirred (started waking up)???

If this is correct them OMG seriously what was she thinking. Gassing once can be fatal, I would count yourself lucky that with him been gassed several times that he didn't die.


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## Puffers315 (Apr 19, 2010)

God, words do not describe how I feel about that story, what a horrid vet, and totally agree that she probably has little to no experience with hedgehogs. That's the sad part, there are vets out there that will say yes, they have experience when they don't, they might have a general knowledge, they might get their info from out dated books, definitely give out your general location on this planet, I'm sure we can find you someone with actual experience. Because I mean crap, the hamster ball can be stressful for a hedgehog let alone gassing one inside, poor guy. And like Pap said, gassing is one of the last options you do, especially for nail trimming, usually the only time I think good vets do it, is for surgery or dental inspection / problems. Hope he feels alright after that, and good even without this site you decided not to give her your business.

As for the wheel, some hedgehogs will stop using them if their nails get too long, which might be a factor. Since he's a pet store hog, did he ever have a wheel? If not, that's another factor, not all hedgehogs get that a wheel is a fun thing at first, so it might take some time for them to catch on. Also what type of wheel and what size?

And indeed its an expensive purchase but soooo worth it, the CHE setup. 10 inch heat lamp with ceramic socket, probably a 100 watt CHE bulb, and a Thermostat (not rheostat). Like Shae said, you also need a digital thermometer for the cage so you can tell exactly what the temperature is.

Same with the light, don't depend on the sunlight, if the room light is on all the time during the day, that works fine, most owners usually opt to setup a personal light on a timer just so you don't forget.

And as for pet stores, indeed its not the best type of hedgehog, but even I feel that they deserve a good home. Its the general idea is that pet stores do not get their hedgehogs from good breeders, even possibly animal mills (look up 'Texas Tumbleweeds'), so its possible to get a really ill-tempered anti-social hedgehog that can easily be sick and or have a bad bloodline. And that if you buy one, that breeder/mill makes money, and thus breeds more. And the side factor on females who are in with males, they typically are preggers. But even then at least my general thought it, SOMEONE is going to buy that hedgehog either way, or he'll die in the pet store. So what the hey.

Oh, and here..

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15

This is to HHC's Approved Cat Food list, anything on that list is good to feed them, the best being on top.


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## hellohedgie (Aug 9, 2010)

He has just a plastic wheel, its a pretty good size one and it has a plastic bottom. I'm positive he doesn't run in it. We've tested him & he doesn't touch it. We've tried to lure him to the wheel with food & the food remains un-touched.. he just doesn't seem to have any interest in it. They didn't have a wheel in the cage at the pet store.


Also, he keeps his thermostat set on 77 instead of 73... my mistake.  
I'm going to get the thermometer for his cage & check the readings i get for him. If the temp isn't whats required for him.. I have a question about the heating.. is there a certain type of space heater that works best? I couldn't afford the CHE thing for now. But any opinions on what type or brand works best would be appreciated.  

We don't completely cover his cage, he is in a plastic bottom cage that has wire on top. And there is a window in the room he is in, the light comes thru the window & we just have a blanket on that side of the cage to block the window out. 
For light he has the window & then there is a ceiling light above his cage that is left on during his "day" & turned off for his "night".


This was our first time with the vet. She was the only vet that we had heard of that done hedgehogs. I personally liked the vet we saw at the emergency vet the first time, she actually seemed like she knew what she was talking about, she was nice & wasn't rough. Hopefully she has her own office & doesn't just work there. But, if not.. we are located in TN. There aren't very many exotic vets around us. 


We were just nervous about getting into his quick on his nails which is why we just took him to have them done. While we were at the vet, some sort of topic came up about giving a bath & she said that hedgehogs don't need baths... that where they live in the wild that if they have a creek nearby they don't just go and jump in it to swim. And there isn't any real reason to give a bath to a hedgie. But, I've seen a few topics on baths here (I haven't been able to read those yet). So like how often or for what reasons do we give baths? There was a video I saw with a hedgie swimming & it was the cutest thing ever.  I'd love to give our little one a bath.

As for the food I'm still checking the list & other posts to see what the best seems to be. You guys should just market mixes & sell them to us confused people. You'd make a fortune. 


And the vet, she had a hamster ball type thing. It had like a sliding side on one end that she would put him into. I don't know what type of gas she used... but, she would gas him, take him out & if he wouldn't un-ball then she'd put him back in.

I really am so glad I found this site, I had no idea that gassing him could kill him.  I feel so awful now that I really didn't speak up for the poor little guy.


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## Puffers315 (Apr 19, 2010)

Hehe, well just leave the wheel in, he may pick up on it sooner or later. You can also try putting him on it and just slightly rolling it, enough to make him walk on it. If he's not skiddish or easily stress, I've used a book to block them from getting off, long enough for them to at least walk on it and see how it works, but again if they're skiddish I don't recommend that tactic. It just takes time for some to learn that the wheel is a fun thing

Space Heater wise the most recommended by members seem to be the oil filled radiator type, they tend to do a better job at keeping a nice even heat in the room, versus forced air units. The downfall of forced air is they create a draft that needs to be aimed away from the cage, warm the room in a more uneven fashion, and tend to wear out quicker due to the moving parts. Get a name brand like Lasko or Honeywell, something you'd reconize.

Baths are given depending on the hedgehog, some can very clean, others can become very filthy. She's right in general about them being in the wild, they're not going to exactly go jump in a stream and clean themselves, but our guys are not in the wild. I think the main reason is they can get stinky, namely due to walking in their own waste, especially on wheels since they're walking through their own urine and poop, and plus the poop can fall off the wheel when its at the top, and thus they can get poop on their backs. Boy hogs need it due to boy time and getting the end result on themselves. Even in the wild if they're not in a stream, there's still a wetness to the ground at night, plus there's no humans around them to smell them all the time.

There are two types of baths, Foot & Regular. A foot bath can be done when needed and is done due to them running through their poop on the wheel, many get 'poopy boots' that need to be removed. You fill a sink or tub with just enough water to get their feet wet, let them walk around long enough to soften up the poop and clean up their feet. A regular bath is done with an inch or so of water, basically enough that it touches their belly, and you clean them up, namely using a soft brush to clean their quills and an unscent shampoo (Aveeno Unscented Oatmeal). Avoid getting water in their ears or them snorting it up their nose since they might get an ear infections or upper respitory. Regular baths shouldn't be given more than twice a month, as they can get dry skin from overbathing.

But bath time depends on the hog, some are extremely clean and some are total pigs. My guys in general stay clean, so they've only had a bath once in the past 6 months and I somehow got lucky and have two who keep their feet clean most of the time. The only time they end up in the tub is when I need to trim their nails.

Now some hedgehogs can really enjoy the water, like that video (guessing it was Shming floating on his back), but I'd say more than 50% are going to dislike or even hate water, who will spend their bath time trying to escape. Shming enjoyed his baths and knew how to swim (and float), so their owners did give him more water than recommended, but you basically just got to judge, I think all might try escaping at first, but as said, some do enjoy it.

The cage covering sounds fine to me, as long as there's some sort of air flow, I cover mine basically in full at night with the exception of the back wall, which is out from the room wall about 3 inches, seems to work, you just don't want to totally cover it. The light also sounds fine, long as there's more than just regular sunlight moderating his internal clock.

Hehe I've actually pondered the premixed food thing in the past week, but my concern would be the legalness since its other company's food, and there's the factor that hogs can be picky eaters, they won't always eat what you provide them. Oh well.


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## hellohedgie (Aug 9, 2010)

Oh thats a good idea Puffers with the book to block him in. I might have to try that with him & see how it works.

With the space heaters, how close is it okay to have them to the cage? And will the sound make him more skiddish?

We had to take a wash cloth to get his "poopy boots" off. ( I love that word! ) I hadn't thought about just having a small bit of water for them to walk thru. Which now that I think of that, its kind of obvious that would be easier. 


Also, I saw the post where its best to have a bowl of water vs. a water bottle. We have a water bottle. We tried the water bowl & he attacked it. Is that normal? We went ahead and took it out because I didn't want him to keep biting the bowl all night & risk him hurting his mouth or anything. 

And, also... bedding... I'm kind of lost on it now. We currently use yesterday's news.. and it seems that it works okay. But I read that it can be uncomfy for them. So, what is the best bedding to use? I saw with the fleece.. and then some saw wood shavings.

Sorry for all the questions.


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## Puffers315 (Apr 19, 2010)

The book is a method I've used on two of my hogs, like I said if he's the skiddish type, not recommended for he doesn't panic, but he doesn't sound like he is.

Same with the space heater, you're more or less going to have to try and see if and how he reacts to the heater. I had a Lasko Tower heater next to my cage before my CHE setup (aimed away from them) but neither of my hogs gave notice to it running or clicking on and off. If he does react, then just relocate it.

Strange on the bowl, what kind of bowl was it, and what color? It kind of sounds like it was a territorial thing with him, something new and foreign invading his space. I would maybe try a different bowl and see if you can find one he doesn't react to, possibly outside the cage, but definitely good idea not to leave it in if he's actually attacking it.

Aspen bedding can be used but the most common around here is Fleece. Aspen tends to be messy and has a few hazards, such as some brands are really dusty which isn't good for them to breath, and in some cases they can have an allergic reaction to it. Plus its rough on their feet, and sometimes parts can be sharp.

Fleece is used since when cut it doesn't leave raw edges that may produce loose threads, which loose threads (or even loose long hair) can be a hazard as it can wrap around their legs and tighten to the point of cutting off circulation. You use a double layer of fleece and the urine typically passes through the first layer and traps itself in the second layer, so the top layer doesn't stay wet long like other fabrics can. Its soft on their feet, it lets you see in general urine color, and many enjoy it because you can get designs. The downside of fleece is it can be a touch smellier than wood bedding, but you spot clean and change the liner every few days. If you have a digger, you build them a dig box out of a cleanix box, cut the top off and then fill the box with fleece strips for the hog to root and burrow around in.

No prob with the questions, its better to ask than not to ask, and that's why HHC is here.


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## EryBee (May 23, 2010)

This is just a short reply to the bath discussion. Puffers covered everything pretty well (as usual  ) but I wanted to say that for foot baths I also use a very wet washcloth instead of actual water. My hedgie hates baths and get really stressed, but doesn't mind wandering around on a wet washcloth. If his feet are really filthy- and they often are- I just take a corner of the cloth and gently scrub until his little legs and feet are fresh and clean.

As Puffers said, it really just depends on the hog. Some love baths, some don't.


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