# Ways to keep ur hedgie clean? Dust bathing/alternatives?



## Ghost

Hello. I came across some videos on YouTube of people giving their hedgies dust baths using chinchilla dust, and I thought it was a great idea. However, after some research I found that this dust can cause URIs and other problems. I was wondering if there alternatives to dust that work. I find my hedgie playing in his litter box occasionally (I use newspaper pellets). Or if there are similar activities you use to keep your hedgie clean, happy, and healthy besides a normal water bath in the sink and a clean wheel to run on. Thanks for any replies and recommendations!


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## nikki

As you found, chinchilla dust isn't good for them. Chinchillas can close their nostrils so they don't inhale the dust while hedgehogs can't do that. There really isn't any other way to keep a hedgehog clean other than water. Rather than giving a full bath you can give a foot bath when only their feet are dirty. You can also use a damp cloth to wipe their quills in stead of a full bath.


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## Draenog

While Americans don't give their hedgehogs dust baths because they say it's dangerous, it's very common in some European countries and I have never heard of any problems. It's the natural way of bathing for the hedgehog. Various types of sand are used, chinchilla sand is one option - although I believe some types of chinchilla sand are extremely dusty, most people seem to use sand with a bigger grain. I've used special "reptile sand" in the past.


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## honeywhistle

My hedgehogs have a tray of fine soil that they love to bathe (read: flip and roll around) in. I didn't know it was dangerous. We discovered that this was something they were into when one of my girls climbed into an old flowerpot while she was out on the balcony and proceeded to give herself a dustbath. 

It's pretty much their favorite thing. I change the dirt every two weeks or so. I can't imagine taking it away from them.


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## nikki

I could see a larger grain sand or dirt being safe, it's just chinchilla sand I would be worried about because of how fine it is.


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## Draenog

nikki said:


> I could see a larger grain sand or dirt being safe, it's just chinchilla sand I would be worried about because of how fine it is.


Reading my post back now and realizing the phrasing makes it look incredibly generalizing :-? I'm sorry. It's just that it's not as common in the US, mostly because a lot of people think it's dangerous - I would not recommend very fine, dusty sand either. But most hedgehogs really love a sand bath, and it's not only a way of keeping themselves clean, it also seems to benefit their skin.


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## Lilysmommy

I'm wondering if perhaps children's play sand would be a good option? It's not so fine that it would have a lot of dust like what's sold for chinchillas around here. It's already cleaned & sifted & such. It might be worth rinsing it to be extra safe, then baking it in the oven to dry before putting in a hedgie cage, but it seems like it might be a good option. You can get a 50lb bag for a few dollars, so it wouldn't be expensive to change out frequently, especially if hedgie decides to potty in it too. Or it could be something offered during bonding time each evening to prevent them from pottying in it (especially so sand doesn't get stuck to privates if they pee in it). I may try giving Bindi a tray to see what she does with it once I bring her home. If she doesn't like it or has any issues with it, I'll use it eventually for the hermit crabs or snake.

Edit: Also a note for anyone in the US that does want to try it...I would not recommend using the colored (or regular white) calcisand sold for reptiles. When it gets wet, it dries hard, so would be even more of a hazard if hedgie were to eat some or get it stuck to privates when peeing. I'm guessing what Draenog mentioned is different, I just know that's the main kind of reptile sand sold in the US, so I wanted to mention that.


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## Draenog

Looked up calcisand and that's indeed not what I mean - this is more like... regular sand. Similar to play sand. Maybe I can find a picture of it. I think there are different types of chinchilla sand as well, here at least, since I've seen varieties which are less dusty.


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## Lilysmommy

Makes sense! I think everything I've seen for chinchillas around here is just super dusty. I don't know enough about chinchillas to know if that's what's actually recommended for them or not though. I do recall reading that play sand is recommended to give to hamsters for sand baths though, so I'm definitely leaning in that direction. I'll need to get some anyway once I start setting up a bio-active home for the snake.


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## octopushedge

I'd be down for giving children's play sand a shot. I believe chinchilla sand is super dusty because they like being covered in that very fine layer of dust.


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## twobytwopets

The stuff for chinchillas isn't what is call sand. It's a very fine particle. Think wood stove ashes. 
I also wonder if the products available to the UK hedgies is a different product. 
For the sulcatas indoor cages we use a soil/ play sand mixture. I've had an escapee end up in with Master Oogway and Tiny. She did take a good healthy dust bath.


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## octopushedge

twobytwopets said:


> The stuff for chinchillas isn't what is call sand. It's a very fine particle. Think wood stove ashes.


This actually makes a ton of sense considering that chinchillas live around volcanic areas in South America. Thanks for pointing that out!

I took a look at some youtube videos. The hedgehogs do seem to really enjoy it. Tenrecs went a step further with physically grabbing clumps of sand and rubbing it on themselves like a bar of soap. The comments on that one mentioned using non-clumping dusty cat litter, which sounds an alarm in my head but I can't remember why we frown upon it.


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## twobytwopets

I think mostly because of the dust. No matter the species irritants going into lungs would be bad. The finer the particle the deeper into the lungs it can get. One instance that that comes to mind is either black lung or people who have worked with asbestos.


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## Lilysmommy

Yep. I don't like clay cat litter partly because the particles are big enough to get stuck in (not just stick to) genitals if hedgie uses it for a potty, but mostly because clay cat litter in general, clumping or non, is very dusty. It's not good for cats or humans either due to the dust.


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## shinydistraction

Ok, well, I'm intrigued. Do we have a consensus on if play sand for like a childrens sandbox would be appropriate? Or does anyone have a better suggestion that I'm not thinking of?


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## twobytwopets

One concern I would have is any possible grit getting into their eyes. But that's a concern for just about any animal given a dust bath, at least for me personally.


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## Ally's_Oliver

One of my hedgehogs "bathes" in his critter litter before its soiled. It's not too dusty and he seems to like it. The other one takes dust bAths outside in loose dirt. I'd say it would be okay with supervision. They could get dust in their nose which could result in a respitory Infection though.


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## Draenog

twobytwopets said:


> The stuff for chinchillas isn't what is call sand. It's a very fine particle. Think wood stove ashes.
> I also wonder if the products available to the UK hedgies is a different product.
> For the sulcatas indoor cages we use a soil/ play sand mixture. I've had an escapee end up in with Master Oogway and Tiny. She did take a good healthy dust bath.


I don't think a lot of people in the UK give their hedgehogs a sand bath, but that's judging from what I see/read on the internet since I don't live there so they might - but it seems more popular in countries like Germany, where they tend to keep their hedgehogs in a more "natural" way.

Think I'll be going to the pet store today to get some food for the animals, I'll check the brands of sand to see what they call it/where it comes from (if they have it)

I believe chinchilla sand has such a fine grain because they have very dense, thick fur.


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## Draenog

Looked it up in a German group, it seems they do use chinchilla sand like I thought but not the variety people we were talking about. This one is without quarts and has a bigger, rounded grain (other chinchilla sand on the right);



















It looks similar to what I've bought before, maybe it's available in the US as well?


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## octopushedge

This is probably more of a philosophical question, but at what point do we decide something is an unacceptable risk? For instance, I was recently looking at leopard geckos and many people caution against using sand in their terrariums because they may accidentally eat some and impact their GI system. It seemed ridiculous because in the wild geckos spend more than enough time digging and hunting in sand. The same could be applied to hedgehogs.

While I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy chinchilla dust or cat litter, at what point do we decide we're sanitizing things a bit too much? At what point are we becoming moms that don't let their kids outside because they might fall and break their arm or get hit by a car?

Just some food for thought. I love the idea of experimenting with children's play sand, but again, I'm hesitant about the various possible health problems that can arise from it.


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## Draenog

I think it's very personal, besides depending on where you live/your local hedgehog community. 

When I got my first hedgehog I mainly read up on English (American) information since there is very little info in my native language. APH aren't very popular here, so we don't have a big community. This meant I was mainly doing things the 'American way' (again, not meant to be generalising - I just notice there are big differences between countries. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. But on this forum for example you'll see fleece liners recommended, while this would never happen in one of the German groups I'm in). 

Being squished between other countries with a bigger pet hedgehog population, and reading up on information from these countries (UK, Germany etc) I have read a lot of contradicting things. At this moment I just do whatever I think is good for my hedgehogs, and I am hesitant to outright say things are bad without trying them (there are a few exceptions). Making your own decisions gets easier when you become more experienced with hedgehogs. I've noticed a lot of 'newcomers' tend to have very strict opinions on certain things, mostly because they've heard/read it from others - a good example is probably statements like 'wood/shavings are bad because they can give your hedgehog mites' and stuff like that. This is probably just a logical reaction from a new hedgehog owner who's read a lot, but doesn't have a lot of experience yet. They need to stick to certain things to figure out how to care for their hog and just repeat this information (I personally think I'm more open minded now than when I just got a hedgehog).

I think hedgehogs can take a lot more than some people on this forum seem to think (not everyone, of course!) I have noticed the 'American way' is often focussed on clean (almost sterile) and unnatural environments, with a focus on potential risks (which are often made bigger than they actually are). Think fleece liners, plastic hideouts, tub cages, carefully closed off ramps and levels etc.
If we take the 'German way' (one that might be the strongest contradiction to the 'American way') we see a much more natural environment, but with potentially more risks. Terrarium/vivariums, the use of loose bedding like shavings, sand, less closed off levels etc. 

Which way is right? I think it's very personal and there isn't a true 'right way' but both have extremes. I've seen a discussion in a German group once where people were against bathing your hedgehog with water. They thought it was unnatural and most hedgehogs hate it which means it's basically animal abuse and the sand they used was already cleaning the hedgehog enough. They have a point, of course, but one needs to remember these hedgehogs are still pets and not running around outside in the wild. 
I don't think bathing with water is necessary bad, but I do try to do it only once, maybe twice a month - really only when needed. 
Or the UK "rule" about wheels for example, where they do not give the babies a wheel until they are a few (10?) weeks old. I have no idea who made that one up but it makes zero sense, there is no evidence that wheeling is actually bad for them at a young age. It seems some of these things are just being repeated, and viewed as being bad, while the people who say it have never even tried it. A bit like 'wood shavings have a high risk of giving your hedgehog mites'. But how high is this risk exactly? Because either European countries have superior shavings, or this risk is being exaggerated by people who've heard it from others but never tried shavings themselves. From what I see in the communities that do use shavings or other types of loose bedding, the risk is very, very minimal (of course there are other reasons that could make one opt for fleece instead). I do not notice more mite problems than with communities who mainly use fleece liners. 

As for sand bathing: from experience and what I see around me, I'd say it is pretty safe to use. 
In Germany it is pretty common to actually keep hedgehogs on sand. As in the bedding of the entire cage, or a part of it, often with some type of loose bedding on top. I have never heard of any issues. This doesn't mean there aren't any risks, maybe there are, but to me there are more positive sides than negatives on using sand. (If anyone's interested, I could look up a few cage examples).
Our pet hedgehogs haven't changed much in a few years of breeding. This is a species that isn't even fully domesticated. They still have their wild habits, needs, and abilities. But they are also pets in captivity, which means we cannot do everything the most natural way for their well-being (and, lets face it, ourselves - we do not have these pets for nothing. Owning pets will always be egoistical in the first place). 

So I am just somewhere in the middle and choose whatever I think is good for my hedgehogs by reading info from different countries and trying out things. I do not like fleece liners (can't wait to get rid of them), but I'm not a big fan of wood shavings either (I like finacard and back 2 nature). I prefer a more natural diet but still feed kibble just to be on the safe side. And so on. 
For me there are just a few things that are an absolute must, or a real no-go, but these things might be different for someone else (heated environment, minimum cage size of 40 x 20 inch, a wheel, a diet with live insects (more than 5 a day), no ivermectin - I might be forgetting something) 
In the end we all just want the best for our hedgehogs


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## Draenog

Um... when will I learn to write short posts? :roll: :lol:


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## Kalandra

It's been a while since I participated in a chinchilla discussion, but from what I recall when I spent time on a chinchilla forum was that basically with chinchillas you want the super fine dust (I wouldn't call it sand at all). The finer dusts work down into their fur better and does a better job of removing the excess oils and helps make their fur light and fluffy.


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## octopushedge

Draenog, bist du einer Deutsche? Die ganze Zeit, hatte ich gedacht dass du einer Engländer bist!  Kannst du mich die Deutsche Webseite schicken? 

Very well written. I definitely noticed a few regional differences between cages alone when I was doing research for a vivarium. The UK/Germany seems much bigger on wooden hutches (similar to what most people here would build for rabbits) whereas the USA/Canada is big on wire and plastic cages. 

I also find myself sliding a little more towards the grey area than black/white. While I haven't had a lot of hedgehog experience (less than a year), I guess a lot of it is realizing every animal is different. I make a lot of comparisons to infants because it is pretty apt. I was a pretty quiet, boring child who could be left alone with a book or a movie and be completely fine. My boyfriend couldn't be left alone for thirty seconds before he would get into a cupboard and cover himself in ketchup. In another thread we had some people saying temperature probes can be left in a cage on its own, while someone else mentioned their hedgehog ran off with it and strongly cautioned securing it. I'm sure one person's hedgehog would take a nice little sandbath, while another would eat it and get themselves very ill. 

I guess, in short, careful monitoring to begin with before deciding if a hedgehog can be left to their own devices. 

As an aside, I personally hate wood chips just because they track everywhere. I only had them for about three days before I switched to fleece, then I moved homes, and I STILL find them occasionally. It's almost as bad as glitter.


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## twobytwopets

I have also seen trends come and go. 
When I got Elvis, my first hedgehog, almost 14 years ago. Wow now, I feel old. There wasn't a lot of information available. Comparing to what is recommended now we used bad wheels, feed crap food, housed them in small cages, and we committed the ultimate hedgehog sin... Using gloves. 
Things have changed a lot since then. Things have improved but I also wonder if we're becoming like helicopter mom's. Owning more than one through its life helps in the same way that having a second child helps calm nerves. With our first child we sanitize everything, second child we lick the dirty stuff of a dropped pacifier. 

I will admit, I'm old school on bedding. It's not that I don't care, or that I don't know the advantages of fleece. I have met me before, I hate laundry. I'm actually hoping the paper dresses from the hospitals come into fashion so I can dispose of dirty clothes instead of washing them.


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## Draenog

@ octopushedge: nein ich bin ein Niederländer, aber ich spreche auch ein bisschen Deutsch  (Lesen ist einfacher haha!) Es gibt Deutsche Facebook Gruppe... Ich weiß nicht ob du Facebook hast? 

Okay, so far my attempt at German... :lol: 

I think there are definitely trends, you see it with all animals, but esp animals that haven't been living in captivity for such a long time. It must have been so hard for the first owners/breeders, to take care of an animal you have never seen before and know nothing about (yet)! In other places people are familiar with wild hedgehogs, know from first hand experience how they live, what they eat etc.

Every hedgehog is different, that's indeed something that should be taken into account as well. In the end it's all personal choices. But I think it's nice to try out new things to see what works for you and your hedgehog.


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## Lilysmommy

:lol: I have the same problem, Draenog, I've lost count of how many times I've written novels on this site. And here I go again. :lol: And it's probably going to be somewhat off-topic, but also semi-related, IMO, so I hope that's okay. 

This is all reminding me of the two schools of thought with reptile keeping. You have the people like what octopus mentioned, that scream warnings about sand & how dangerous it is. That group tends to recommend the sterile environment that Draenog mentioned. Linoleum, slate, reptile carpet, paper towels, etc. Bedding options that can be thrown away or easily sanitized, but are quite unnatural. Nothing necessarily wrong with that option, but you do have to put more effort into making sure the animal still has adequate enrichment, IMO.

Recently I've been researching bio-active reptile keeping, as I'm planning to set up my snake's long-term enclosure as bio-active. Basically bio-active means using a mix of loose substrates that will emulate the animal's natural environment. Only two species that I've read of so far actually do best with straight sand. Most animals, including leopard geckos & bearded dragons, should get sand mixed with other things like topsoil, coconut fiber, etc. 

You also put "custodians" into that substrate, which will be things like isopods (also known as roly polies, pill bugs, etc.), springtails, earthworms, millipedes, beetles, etc. Invertebrates that eat waste matter from larger animals, leftover food, etc. Once your custodians are established, they take care of waste matter from the animal & the substrate does not have to be changed. There's bacteria present, but it's mostly the "good" bacteria. Bad bacteria shouldn't get out of hand as long as your custodian populations are doing well. A lot of people also plant real plants in these set ups, which complete the natural environment. 

IMO so far, bio-active does seem to be the way I'd prefer or consider better. I do admit that it's not better for everyone - it's confusing to learn about & understand, and it takes more work to set up than the sterile method, I think. And it's still quite easy to do wrong or to lack proper enrichment for the animal - the idea is providing lots of options so the animal can control their environment. Lots of hides, a temperature gradient, a humidity gradient, the ability to climb if wanted, the ability to burrow if wanted, etc. 

But from what I've read so far, the dangers everyone screams about with things like loose bedding aren't an issue. Animals seem to stay better hydrated due to more natural humidity ranges. Dehydration is a huge factor in impactions. It seems that ingestion of the substrate isn't as much of a concern as many people think - they don't accidentally ingest much to begin with, and if they take in a little, they're generally less stressed, less dehydrated, and in a better position to just pass it through. Though there are precautions people take against ingestion - set ups for most species recommend using leaf litter on top of the main substrate, which is harder to ingest than sand/soil. And for animals like bearded dragons & leopard geckos, where impaction seems to be a greater concern, I've noticed people commonly put pieces of slate over much of the substrate (which also helps keep humidity levels down to a lower level for these animals). I've also read that if you're concerned about substrate sticking to prey like frozen-thawed rodents, you can just put them up on a hide or log, or you can even put a piece of cardboard in to set the food on so the substrate doesn't stick to it.

Okay, I'll stop rambling about reptiles. Now about hedgehogs...I did ask my bio-active group if they thought something like this would work for hedgehogs. The general consensus seems to be that it wouldn't work in the same way as with reptiles (where changing bedding is more or less unnecessary bar major issues) due to the amount of waste mammals put out. While poop is usually easier to deal with since you can spot clean even if hedgie isn't litter trained, the urine build up in the substrate would likely be an issue.

I'm still trying to figure out if I want to give it a go at some point. Draenog (if you've read this far :lol, I'd be super interested if you happen to have any resources in English about using sand as a substrate for hedgehogs, or even in other languages (I could see if the translate function would work well enough to understand it or not). I'll try looking on my own too.

I will say that if I do try it, I will not use straight sand - I don't believe it's appropriate as a whole cage substrate for them. Few animals live on straight sand, and usually (as far as I know) it's a mix of different types of soils & such. I think I would likely do some research into the types of environments, then compare to reptiles that would be in that area, and see if I can find a recommended mix for those reptiles that might work for a hedgehog. It's likely something that would still need to be changed, at least every other week or something...and I don't think most plants would stand up to a hedgehog well (plus the issue of whether they're safe for hedgie in case of ingestion). But it'd still be an interesting option to explore.

The other thing I was considering was the same idea, but on a smaller scale & not as the cage - I was thinking more of a food dig box where I could put live insects & worms & such in the box & she could hunt/dig them out. While I know that would have the whole substrate-stuck-to-prey thing, I think the better hydration from a raw diet would help prevent issues. But it might be an every-night thing, just in case. I'm not sure yet! Lots of ideas, not a lot of definite plans. I'll definitely post about my experiences with all of this on the forum if I try out any of this. 

And now I'll stop ranting. :lol: Hopefully some of this was useful or gave everyone else some food for thought.

Edit: Okay, I lied. I thought of two more things related to the bio-active reptile set ups. A lot of people argue that because these set ups are more natural, they help reduce stress levels & unnatural behaviors sometimes seen in reptiles, as non-domesticated wild animals that really aren't exactly suited to being pets. High stress levels affect the immune system - animals that are constantly stressed at a low or high level are going to be more susceptible to illnesses, parasites, etc. I'm not sure that would be a huge factor in hedgehogs as they're just really good at getting into trouble anyway, but wanted to mention it.

The other thing was the bacteria thing. Hedgehogs are pretty prone to skin infections, due to their quills constantly growing in & creating openings into the body. I was initially concerned that perhaps a bio-active type set up would be a concern and contribute to that issue. But now I have to wonder if it's similar to how constantly sanitizing & bleaching everything around a kid can actually make them more susceptible to illnesses as they don't have the small exposure to germs to build up their immune system, and there's no good bacteria to help fight off bad bacteria. Perhaps an environment that is allowed to have good bacteria build up will be less likely to harbor the dangerous bacteria that would cause skin infections? Though changing the substrate completely regularly wouldn't allow for that, so it would still be an issue...perhaps it would work if you changed half of the substrate at a time, to allow good bacteria to build up, similar to how you still need to do partial water changes for established aquariums, but you don't want to throw away established filters or change all of the water because it'll get rid of the good stuff that helps keep the aquarium stable. I'm not really sure. Just thought I'd add these thoughts into the discussion.


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## octopushedge

On a similar note, properly established aquariums take a while to get going because it's the same idea of creating a colony of good bacteria to deal with things like ammonia build ups. You can also toss in snails or shrimp to help with waste clean up. Most fish can live for many years or decades, but people grow up with the idea that fish are very short lived children's pets due to how many people just toss them in some tap water. A proper aquarium does not need frequent cleaning and can deal with diseases quite well on its own. 

Like we've explored, it's all about deciding where you think the balance should be. 

Draenog, I do have Facebook and would love to take a look at the groups you've mentioned.


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## octopushedge

Reggie vacuumed up the last of his meal worms today, so I took a trip down to the pet store and decided to see what they had in stock.

They had the very fine desert terrarium sand, as well as the chinchilla dust. But I found some of these interesting as well... 








This is "riverbed sand". It's significantly courser than the majority of the reptile sands available, but is still suitable for terrariums. The package boasts that because it has been rounded off by water, it is very smooth and easily passable if accidentally ingested. I bought a small bag home to experiment with.









This is "excavator" sand. It's the coarsest sand they had available and is widely used in their terrariums. The big draw with it is it can be moistened to then build caves, outcrops, etc with. The bag had a giant warning not to run water through the sand because it would remove the clay and kill the construction function, essentially reducing it to boring rocks. I'm very curious if that would make it a good hedgehog option, but the bags were too big for me to feel comfortable gambling on.

Here's what it looks like next to a lizard  the feature in the back was built with it


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## Lilysmommy

I've looked at the excavator clay for making python burrows & hides, but I'm not sure how well they'll hold together or if it'll collapse if the humidity gets too high or what. I need to do more reading on it, but if I get some, I'll let you know what I think!

The riverbed sand definitely looks interesting. I'd love to hear what you think of it & how it goes! May not be suitable for something like a whole cage set up (due to probable expense), but at least for a sand bathing container, it looks nice.


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## FinnickHog

Alright, My turn!  I'll try to keep this as short and to the point as possible.

First off, staying on topic: The two brands of chinchilla dust (sand?) that Draenog shared pictures of are quite different in the way they react. I've been testing every imaginable type of sand with Finnick to see what he likes and what doesn't stick to him or bother his nose.

The finer type of dust: Way too dusty for my liking. Even pouring it into his bathtub created a cloud. I didn't even let him use it.

The more grainy type: This I tried. I found it in both regular and "low dust". I used the low dust stuff and Finn really liked it. He didn't sneeze or cough, his eyes didn't water, and it only barely got stuck to his boy parts. He tends to stick his junk out while he's rolling so this is an important factor for me.

Sterilized play sand: Works really well but I do suggest rinsing it in a fine strainer under a tap because it's almost as dusty as the regular chinchilla dust! Once it's been rinsed it clumps, so just smush it around and it'll crumble. Finn loved it. Again, no sneezing, no coughing, no trouble with his eyes. It did stick to his boy parts a little more than I liked and I was worried about it ending up internal.

Excavator clay: Again, very dusty when you first open the bag. This stuff is super cool with desert reptiles, but I didn't like it with Finn. It got very sticky when wet and ended up all over his feet when he peed in it. It also clumped around his bits. (Side note: It doesn't hold a burrow as well as it claims and it's very humidity-sensitive. I wouldn't recommend it unless you have small desert lizards like leopard geckos, baby Ackies, swifts, etc. I know adult beardies can collapse burrows just by sitting on top of them.)

Ground walnut shells: I buy this for my mexican black kingsnake. It feels a lot like sand but the theory is it's digestible so it should cause fewer issues if swallowed (I'm not a believer in the every substrate that can be ingested is bad debate so that's not a big concern. As long as a reptile is properly hydrated it can pass just about anything. See below for why.) Finn loved it. I think this was his second favorite. It's dusty out of the bag so I rinsed it like the play sand. No respiratory problems, no eye problems, very minor sticking, and it seemed to exfoliate him. His skin was very smooth when he was done. I assume this is why they have the behavior in the first place?

Sterilized potting soil: This was just soil, not peat moss or orchid mulch or anything. Regular old indoor plant potting soil. Finn enjoyed it, threw it everywhere, and it didn't bother his eyes, nose, or mouth. It got sloppy when wet though and stuck to him more than I liked.

Riverbed sand: Finn didn't like this as much but I loved it. It doesn't really clump when wet. He did sneeze once while in it, then he peed and wandered off. If he liked it more I'd use it. It does, very very occasionally, have small sharper pieces, so I'd suggest running your hands through it while you're pouring it just to be safe.

Aquarium pebbles: I liked these. No clumping, no dust, nice big pieces, not abrasive, he couldn't swallow them if he tried. He thought I was losing my mind and informed me that he is not a fish, and then he went back to bed. So this was a no-go.

So. I choose to let him play in the crushed walnut shells. I don't leave them in with him though, I keep a close eye on him. I like to hide mealies in the dish so he's eating and rolling and just being completely adorable. This is of course, my own research and my own opinion. But I hope it helps at least in some way.

Now, on to the slightly off-topic sterile vs naturalistic debate. I am NOT going to get into lighting here! A lot of you guys know I keep a wide variety of animals. All of my reptiles and amphibians are in naturalistic setups. In my lengthy personal experience I've found that they thrive; grow faster, eat better, shed cleaner, are more active in a naturalistic habitat. I've had my leopard gecko for 20 years. My parents bought him when I was 9, didn't do much research and just did the minimum required care. He was on reptile carpet for 15 years and he had a wooden salad bowl with a hole for a hide. And that was it. I found he was more interested in watching what I was doing than acting like a gecko. After I started setting up vivariums and pauladriums and all this other crazy stuff, I switched him onto my kingsnake's brand of crushed walnut (yes I love this stuff and would probably marry it if I could!) and he started a whole new behavior. He started digging. He'd swish his chubby little tail in it and sink his feet in and scutter around flinging substrate everywhere. He still loves it. And it gets the stuck shed off what's left of his poor little toes. The friction from the more natural sand helps with his sheds. I put a box of moss in, he soaks for an hour, strolls out, rubs on some rocks and plays in the "sand" and it all just comes right off.

I feed him live foods. Crickets and hornworms usually. He chases them in the substrate and he is OLD. He misses a lot these days. If he gets a mouthful of walnut he spits it out. Sometimes he squishes a worm and they get coated. He eats them no problem. His poops always look good, and he's healthier than he used to be by a longshot.

Now on the flip side of the argument. I used to have two kingsnakes. One was the foundation for a future breeding endeavor. I bought him from a wholesaler and he was stunning. But he was 2 years old when I got him and had lived his whole life in a small plastic shoebox. I of course placed him in an appropriately sized terrarium complete with sand, live desert plants, and a nice big natural water dish. I had him for around 6 months and he would not drink. I didn't risk feeding him on the substrate because the risk of impaction is higher in reptiles that are dehydrated. I sprayed him, I soaked him, I put him in wet pillowcases but the dehydration wouldn't reverse. I found him one morning burrowed in the walnut with his mouth completely packed full of it. The autopsy showed that he didn't actually choke and the dehydration killed him before the substrate did.

And that is why I believe that as long as an animal is healthy the naturalistic approach is better. If the animal has had its senses suppressed for an extended period of time, I ease in the new environment, and I haven't had another death from substrate ingestion since (Or terrarium bacteria, or any of that other stuff some keepers will argue about) I'm super sad that I lost my favorite little guy, but the autopsy taught me a lot and I've grown as a pet owner. I've also learned the importance of knowing how an animal was cared for before you take it home. It turns out he was afraid of water his whole life.

A little extra information I use as "proof" that I'm doing things right:
I keep a breeding colony of 5 dart frogs in a 40 gallon vivarium with waterfall, pond and all live plants. I get massive tadpoles from them and my babies are doing amazing. I haven't lost one yet and they live on fine soil and eat tiny little flies.

I have a trio of Electric Blue Day Geckos in that same setup. They hang out in the tops of the trees, and the frogs hang out on the ground. This breed of gecko is listed as cannibalistic and is known to eat their young in captivity. When I first got them I kept them in quarantine and they ate the first baby. In my massive natural cage they have never even threatened one. But catching the baby when it's time to sell is awful work.

My two salamanders (Yes another salamander just showed up here out of the blue, I have noooo idea how that happened <.<) basically had their cages ripped up from the small lake down the street from my new house. I gathered them some moss and wood (I bake the wood in the oven at 200 degrees F for an hour to kill everything) and put them on a drainage layer and then sterilized soil. They both dig massive burrows and when I open their lids little heads will poke out from wherever they were sleeping through the soil and check if I have snacks. It's adorable and so much better than them just staring out at me all day, which is what they both did in quarantine.

I also just acquired two crested geckos from a breeder at the Red Deer reptile show. One is too young to be in the big cage so she's in a smaller one with a vine, one live plant, and her food dish. She will only drink from moving water so I spray her several times daily. My new little boy lucked out and got an upgraded version of my ball python's juvenile cage. I'll attach a picture. You can't see him in there, but I think it's about as naturalistic as it gets. Again, they both act more lizard-like in larger, more natural cages. They were both raised in tupperware tubs with a small fake plant and a food dish, with paper towel substrate. Since they're so young they took to their upgrades very well, and now they both show basking behaviors they didn't have before, they hide and then peek out when I leave, the male lets the water from his waterfall drip in his head and sleeps curled into a bromeliad leaf. They also have room to jump, and these little guys can jump! The male can clear 3 feet. And on top of that, their poop fertilizes the plants, which purify the air.

I won't get into my snakes and skink - or what I'm thinking about doing with the hedgehog - here unless someone is curious.

So, long story short, I've seen both sides of the argument but my animals are much, much more active and playful in naturalistic habitats than on carpet or paper towel with nothing to play in. I also think I'm pretty clever when it comes to animals and I can tell quickly if something is wrong and I'm never slow to run screaming to the vet for help if I need it. I think just keep an eye out for weird behaviors, always watch the poop, and you should be just fine going natural.

New Crested Gecko Tank:









Mordin (Female)









Grunt (Male)


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## Draenog

Here's a German FB group, one that's quite active; https://www.facebook.com/groups/26912271940/ @ Kelsey I don't check a lot of websites, I mainly just read posts in FB groups but there are a few German websites listed in the banner. There are more German groups, I'm in a couple of Danish ones at well (not sure if that's of any use to people here). Then there are a few Czech, Polish (which I can't read) and Russian ones (my Russian is getting better, but is still very minimal). There is some info on Russian websites but some are hard to find. 
There's South African information too, also in the form of YT videos and articles (Afrikaans is a daughter language of Dutch so for me this is very easy to understand) 
And a few groups from Malaysia, Philippines etc but I tend to avoid these since they usually just make me angry (tiny tubs, no wheels and sometimes no hideouts even, etc). 
If you don't know where to start, it helps if you just look up the word for APH in a certain language and then Google it or search for it on FB.

I have experience with bio-active terrariums, I started my first one when I was 9 (back then I caught wild salamanders, very interesting, because they live on the land during winter and in the water during spring/summer) and I've had bio-active vivs ever since for my amphibians/reptiles/insects. Right now I have one, for my crested gecko. I love bio-active vivs, the animals thrive in them and it looks really nice.

I think it's way harder to keep a hedgehog in a bio-active viv though. The thing is, they are usually used for (semi) tropical species - high humidity, lots of plants, etc. Reptiles and other animals which are quite neat and do not make a huge mess. I can imagine making a bio-active environment for an APH, an animal which lives in dry, semi-desert climates, is a lot harder (if you want to do it as close to their natural habitat as possible). Esp since you will have to clean it more often and they tend to dig out stuff. They're not called "hog" for nothing, of course.

Right now I am stuck with my open FN cages so I cannot experiment with loose bedding types very well, but I am planning on building stacked vivs and I think I want different types of bedding including parts with for example sand, certain types of soil, etc. There's stuff like Vitakraft Waldboden for sale, I've tried something similar and hid insects in it, my hedgehogs liked to dig around. I have river pebbles in my dig boxes, I'd like to use bigger stones and rocks as well as wood in the vivs (I have the perfect picture in my head, lol. Now I just need to build it) 
I'm currently using fake plants, I think I'll stay with fake ones. I like a natural look but I need to be able to clean it as well.

The bigger a viv is, the easier it is to create a bio-active environment with room for the plants to thrive. I think the same goes for hedgehogs, it is probably easier to create a more natural environment with live plants if you have a big cage. Most of the plants in their natural area are types of grass, or other tall plants.

Something like this:










https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.10152760525071941&type=1

Don't think many people will have that much room for a cage though... 
I'm not sure yet what the dimensions for mine will be, but I'd like them to be as big as possible so it not only gives the hogs more space but also leaves more room to try out different types of bedding, hideouts etc. 
I'll have to look if they sell those walnut shells here! I always thought walnut shells were toxic, but it might just be the green shell.

(PS nice cresteds FinnickHog!)


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## Lilysmommy

Great post, and thank you for sharing your research with the different sand-like sub types! Very good information for people to start off with if they want to try this out. 

And I'm definitely curious! If you'd rather not post here & go more off-topic, would you be willing to PM me what you're planning to do with the snakes & hedgehog? Because I'm still really considering doing a naturalistic set up for Bindi if I can get things set up right & if she does okay with it. I still might start out with fleece for a couple weeks while she settles in & then start to switch over & see what she does.


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## Draenog

I'm curious too!


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## octopushedge

This is probably one of the best discussions we've had on HC all month. Thank you everyone for sharing your research and opinions 

I love that giant German Viv, it's gorgeous. I know the size thing holds true for aquariums as well. Basically, if you change one thing in a 5 gallon tank, it may have an overall change of 20%. If you did the same thing in a 40 gallon tank, it'd be an overall change of 2.5%. Nature is great at adapting, but of course comparatively bigger changes are much harder to accommodate.

Throwing my hat back into the ring, here is the result of leaving Reggie with the riverbed sand overnight. 








I made the mistake of putting it in a shallow plate to make it accessible...sigh
I checked him out first thing this morning and there were a few grains stuck to his penis, but nothing alarming and it brushed off very easily. If he peed in it last night, I can't tell. The sand looks the same as when I first poured it. It's not dusty at all, either

I did notice the crushed walnut shell substrate at the pet store the other day, but I feared it'd be too sharp. Glad to hear it's working well for some members!

On walnuts and their toxicity - I can only speak from a plant perspective because that's my field of study. Walnut trees produce juglone, which is in every part of the plant. This soaks into the ground and kills every other plant around it except for the hardiest. Juglone hangs around for decades even after the tree is taken out. I imagine some animals may have a sensitivity to it, but I also know walnuts are a very crucial food source in those type of forests.


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## twobytwopets

I' is turning into a very interesting thread. 
It looks like Reggie approved of the sand. 
I always liked the idea of a natural environment for animals. One it just looks better, two it could theoretically stimulate some natural behaviors and curb boredom. 
I've wanted to take it a step further and have differing species from the same region together. This doesn't work with what I currently have other than one tortoise and one bird. Not a habitat, that would be Skeeter-Bird yelling at Ziggy. Eventually I'll be able to do this. Size and where they would be in the environment has to go into consideration. 

Two other situations where one of my hedgehogs have taken a dirt bath came to mind. 
Always involving escapees. The cat knocked a plant over and the hedgehog enjoyed it, I'm positive they were in on the plan together. Another time one was playing and discovered it had been a while since I cleaned under my voucher. Dust bunny hedgehog.

Next time we get stuff for the tortoises bedding I'll have to keep some play sand off to the side for the hedgehogs.


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## Dayofhope

Wow! I had no idea there were different "theories" to hedgehog owning. I figured since many parts of the world use HC, that there was one definite way to have the happiest and safest hedgie. 

The part about many hedgehogs hating their bath is interesting - does anyone know if they use water to bathe in the wild, or do they just use sand?

Do these sand baths actually make them seem cleaner, or is it mostly just for fun? Does the sand have potential to dry out their skin? (Chinchilla dust bath has potential to dry out a chinchilla's skin.) How often should sand be given? What kind of container are you using to give it to them in so that it doesn't make a mess?


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## nikki

Just wanted to mention something. The 'true' chinchilla dust isn't sand, its volcanic ash/dust which is what I was referring to when I said it wasn't good for hedgehogs because of how fine it is. I do like the idea of the coarser type sand to use for them and I might try it if I ever get another hedgehog.


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## Draenog

I don't think HCC is *that* international. The majority on here is American or from the UK, some from Canada - countries where English is the native language. There are some users from other countries but not that many compared to the other members, or maybe they're just reading and not posting (it'd be interesting to see which countries visit HHC the most!)
All the information is US/UK-centered - take the kibble list for example, which is pretty useless to the rest of the world. So is stuff like C&C cages and many other things (the grids and/or coroplast aren't available in many countries) 
Of course a lot of the general information is still very usable but this forum is mainly focussing on the North American hedgehog owners (which it was started by in the first place of course!).
When I was researching APH I started looking up information in my native language and found 3 websites with only a little info. So I searched in English and found this forum. But I think a lot of people don't even go there, especially if they don't speak English very well or don't know what to look for. If you just look at Europe, and how well people speak English in various countries, you will notice a massive difference - even between countries which are next to each other. If 44% of Germans or 78% of Spaniards aren't able to hold a simple conversation in English, they are not very likely to look up information about an uncommon exotic mammal. And this is just the EU (of course the newer generations will score higher, thanks to the internet. But you get the idea). There are entire groups out there where the majority doesn't look for English information. There are many little communities of hedgehog owners who've created their own way of keeping hedgehogs. And sometimes resources are limited and you have to get creative or find another way.

Okay, this is an entirely different subject /language nerd modus off (I just really love languages and find this subject very interesting, I'm sorry)

This is definitely an interesting discussion and I like everyone's input! 
Looks like Reggie enjoyed the sand  I've used rabbit toilets and bowls, it keeps the sand in quite well, as long as the edges are a bit higher (or you don't fill it all the way).

As for the use of sand baths, this is their natural behaviour. I highly doubt a wild hedgehog will take a bath with water. They seem to avoid water in general. Sand bathing is known in many animal species to help get rid of parasites and keep the fur/skin clean (it helps them get rid of skin flakes, too). As for how often it should be given... that's up to you I guess, there are people who always leave the sand in the cage and there are people who only give sand baths occasionally.


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## Lilysmommy

I love it when conversations like this start up on the forum. Concerns are shared nicely & addressed, everyone discusses their experiences and what they've read and researched, etc.

I didn't see your post with the German enclosure picture earlier, Draenog, that is awesome!!  I have a feeling we'll be going with a C&C cage for now because it's easiest to make a large enclosure at a cheaper price...but she may get something different in the future if I can afford it. Maybe something similar to the snake's planned viv, which will be 4 feet long by 2 feet wide, so the same size as my planned C&C cage for Bindi. 

I agree that doing desert or semi-arid bio-active set ups seems to be harder from what I've read so far. People seem more confused and have more challenges with set ups for bearded dragons and leopard geckos. I really need to get back to my bio-active research, especially if I want to try doing research on it for Bindi as well now. I've been trying to adjust to my first full-time job for the past few weeks, so I've gotten nothing done that I've wanted to work on.  I still have lots of raw hedgie diet research to do as well.

One of the things I thought would be most challenging is the issue of custodians - safe ones for hedgehogs in case they're eaten, how to make sure hedgie isn't disrupting a raw diet with eating a lot of custodians (or how to account for it to make sure it's still balanced enough), or how to protect the custodians from being eaten. No custodians, it's not really bio-active...It seems like you can still have somewhat of a cycle with no live plants, but the custodians are the important thing for helping get rid of waste & keeping it from building up in the substrate. Maybe if hedgie isn't hungry, they won't dig too much & disturb custodians too much? I'm not sure. Either way, due to how much waste they produce, I think the sub would have to be changed in small amounts semi-frequently, at least, similar to aquariums. I'm just not sure how it would affect any kind of cycle or if it would or if a cycle would even be able to establish at all. Clearly I need to do more research still. :lol: 

As far as plants, it might help if they were planted in a plastic pot/planter before being placed in the cage. I've seen people suggest it for lizards that like to dig plants up. That could help keep the hedgehog from tearing up the roots too much & killing the plant. But you'd have to know the plant & whether the container is big enough & if it'll get too big at some point, etc. I'm not sure I'll do live plants even if I do attempt a version of bio-active for Bindi. Fake sounds easier to deal with, at least to start out with! Though I like the idea of at least planting some grass & see if I can get it to grow, especially if she potties mostly around her wheel & won't kill the new grass with urine. Urine seems to be the most questionable factor, since hedgehogs pee a lot more than reptiles do, and that can easily kill plants & build up in the soil...I'm not actually sure how that would be taken care of in the wild other than just having it more dispersed.


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## octopushedge

Kelsey, just some thoughts:
First of all, take it easy! Full-time work is tough. Don't overburden yourself to an imaginary hedgehog research deadline 

In the wild, the custodians would likely be things like crickets, worms, beetles, etc. If you stuck to that, you're basically naturally "gut loading" them. I imagine this provides a lot more nutritional value to the hedgehogs, as well as filling them up more. I suppose you have to either accept the fact that they will eventually be eaten and need to be restocked, OR you'd have to look at an even smaller level of organism (eg bacteria) if you want some sort of consistency.

On that same note, I wonder if having ready access to insects would make hedgehogs a little less crazy about them. Reggie has 24/7 access to his kibble, but he'll only eat until he's full. Nowadays I only put out as much as I know he'll eat overnight so it doesn't go stale, but even if I poured a mountain out one day, he would still only eat about 1.5tbs. On the other hand, if I put a container of worms out, I know he would eat until he physically can't anymore. I wonder if having them crawling around his cage would make them less of a "treat" and more like a piece of kibble to be eaten when hungry.

As for plants, we know hedgehogs are very big runners in the wild, so plants likely deal with appropriate amounts of urine and feces. I would encourage you to look at "xeriscaping" though, which is becoming quite popular in some states like California where droughts are becoming a major issue. I imagine many of the same principles would apply, just at a smaller scale.* Edit:* Checking out the type of aquascaping used in nano/microaquariums may have valuable input too...shoot, now I'm doing hedgehog research instead of school work too! :lol:

As an aside: one of my lectures today went into quite a bit of detail about landscape elements that are vital to animal biodiversity, not just surviving but thriving. I was completely enamoured and have asked the professor if I can meet with him to discuss applying these elements at a smaller scale, such as zoos and terrariums. If anything comes out of it, I'll see what I can pass along to you guys


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## Lilysmommy

I just feel bad I'm getting nothing done. Less so with personal research for Bindi & my snake, but more for not working on some of the stuff for the HHC forum & site that I had planned. I have this weekend off, so maybe I can get at least one project done.

No crickets in our cage! :lol: Especially if I start with a C&C, I'll have to make sure the custodians are things that will stay put or die if they escape. Thinking of typical bio-active custodians plus my planned feeder options, I'm thinking about nightcrawlers, springtails, and isopods. Not sure about mealworms or not yet. The first three all like humid soil & staying buried unless they're out for food, so I know they won't try to escape. While the surface won't really be humid, typically the deeper layers of sub have a higher humidity where the custodians like to hang out, and then they'll come up for food. The other benefit of those three choices is that springtails are too small for hedgies to eat and isopods have a high calcium content, which is my main concern when balancing the diet, so I'd only have to worry about the nightcrawlers. The other thing I'd have to check is if the nightcrawlers would be okay in a sandier soil. 

For the rest of the insects/diet, I'd probably either give them in a bowl, maybe hide them around the cage (for frozen/thawed options like crickets), or maybe have a separate feeding dig box that I could put live things like mealworms, mealworm beetles, dubia roaches, dermestid beetles, etc. in so she could dig them out & I could have greater control over how much she gets of each & monitor what she eats.

I agree that she may eat less if it's not a one-or-two-a-day kind of treat. Plus so far most people who have done raw diets have reported their hedgehogs will eat their fill of two "mealtimes" and seem to do well on that. So likely she'd eat the food I give her, and then if she happened to dig up a nightcrawler or something, it'd be a nice bonus snack or something rather than a "I have to dig for more food NOW" kind of reaction? :lol:

I did a quick search to see what the biggest issue is with urine & plants. It seems that the main causes of plant death are high salts & high nitrates. So with that in mind, it seems like bio-active could still work if a) Bindi decides it's good to potty in more or less one general area so I could change out the substrate in that area once a week or something, and b) if I get plants that are tolerant to high levels of salts and/or nitrates in case they do get exposed to higher-than-usual levels. It seems the main guard against build up of those things in outdoor environments is dilution with rainwater & good drainage that allows the water to carry the excess away. Since it's going to be an enclosed area, it seems like removing via changing out small amounts of substrate would work similar, though probably not as well. Plants would also be nice for serving as a warning system. If they start to do poorly, I could do a larger substrate change or change closer around them or something to see if it helps.

Xeriscaping is really neat! I've heard of it before, just not the specific term. I'd have to figure out which plants would work best...They'd need to be non-toxic to hedgehogs, sturdy, can't get too big (or have roots too deep, since the substrate will likely be 6-8" deep at most), and ideally be either medium- or low-light and same for water. But it seems like plants really are the completion of the cycle & what would keep hedgie waste from building up too much in the substrate. Though maybe it'd be a good idea to start out with plastic while the custodians get established & such, then the soil will be in good shape to introduce the plants to & have them start growing? I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. I'm not a plant person at all. :lol: 

Definitely interested in hearing if you get anything good from your professor! That sounds like a fascinating discussion.


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## Draenog

There's just so much to research, it feels like you need an extra life :roll: I know the feeling Kelsey! It doesn't need to be finished right now though, your job is more important.
I was so happy when I finally finished my hybrid article :lol: And now there are the other projects I still have to finish... sigh...

The custodians you're naming are, like you said, mainly used for (semi)tropical vivs. 
Unless this would work in a semi-desert one, I think a non bio-active environment with live plants in pots (grass, mostly) and a few different, mixed bedding types like sand most closely resembles their natural habitat. The big enclosure I posted uses live plants in pots too (pots are hidden). That way it's easier to water the plants or change them.
On the plus side, plants from dry areas tend to be quite hardy, so they might be harder to kill 

I really like xeriscaping. I think it looks nice (but I really like cacti and similar plants. Maybe I just like everything prickly :lol: )
Do you guys have any botanical gardens in your area? I mean something like this (this is the (semi) steppe/desert part of the one close to my home). It might be interesting to check out, maybe the people working there have any tips or information about certain types of plants, and you can see first hand what type of plants are from central Africa.
(Actually this idea just came to mind so I think I'll have to go there soon, haven't been there in a long time!)










I'm not sure if there are custodians available for dry, sandy habitats, cause in that case it might be easier... but nightcrawlers, springtails etc. all prefer more humid soil. Another downside of humid soil with hedgehogs is how it sticks to them - to their fur, between the quills, etc. I've tried different types of soil but I ditched it immediately cause it was terrible. 
Or maybe if you play with different layers, the more humid soil on the bottom and mixed layers on top (if the custodians can live in such an environment)
Then there's the issue of the hedgehog possibly eating them, but some are so small the hedgehog might just leave them alone esp if it has enough other insects to eat...

Not bio-active, but I've added some more natural set-ups I've saved in my inspiration folder (most of them come from the German FB group I've posted earlier)
There's also two photos of four-toed hedgehog habitats in Africa. Every study I can find about it seems to agree on them preferring dry, well drained soil, relatively open areas with patches of grass and light undergrowth. Even in the woodland areas the soil is relatively dry, but with using different layers (possibly mixed with sand?) a less humid bio-active viv might be doable?


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## Lilysmommy

I woke up this morning after getting to sleep past 5:30 (okay, well, go back to sleep after taking the dog out & feeding her at 5:30) and within 20 minutes I was back to researching for a hedgehog bio-active set up. :lol:

So these are my thoughts so far...

Regarding custodians: I'd do what you mentioned, a gradient of moisture throughout the soil. It'd be more humid down deeper and get drier as you move up towards the top, where the top would pretty much be dry to avoid excessive sticking to hedgie. People do use the same custodians for drier bio-active set ups for bearded dragons/leopard geckos/etc., as far as I've read, they just make sure there are moist retreats for the custodians to hang out in. You can also create moist areas at the top by placing flat rocks that will shield soil from losing moisture, which I would like to do. She could still potentially dig under it, but otherwise it would be a good place for them to hang out. As far as allowing them to take care of waste, her digging would help turn the substrate somewhat, and I could mix it up as well. I'd likely still spot clean poop out of the enclosure anyway, especially until there's evidence that the custodians are actually established. And even after, since there's likely to be more poop than they can deal with!

I may see if I can find any other options for drier custodians. I think I've seen some people mention mealworms, so maybe I'd try some & see if they could hang out in the upper layers? I just don't want to deal with beetles potentially escaping since my roommate is pretty phobic of bugs! And I think she might be more tempted to hunt down all of the mealworms too. :lol: I'm also not sure if they could even successfully turn into beetles in the cage since they usually come to the surface to change into a pupae, and she'd easily find & eat them then.

On plants...We do have a botanical garden in the area that I really want to visit! I'll have to do that soon & see what they have. I'm definitely going to look more into plants used for xeriscaping. I was doing some reading up on plant nutrients & such. Really, the main danger from the urine is the high salts, which could be combated either by watering to help drain the salts out (I would have a drainage layer underneath the substrate, and probably some PVC pipe to allow me to drain water back out in this case), or by changing out the substrate periodically & using salt-tolerant plants (which goes with the xeriscaping thing). These are the two links I've bookmarked so far towards this issue - http://www.wildflower.org/expert/show.php?id=8212 and http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/224.html#urine

The other thing is high levels of nitrites and nitrates, which are necessary plant nutrients, but still harm them in excess amounts. I think if I periodically water to help leach out salts, that might help with nitrates as well? And with a large enclosure with only one animal, hopefully it wouldn't get so high in specifically areas around plants to harm them unless she's always peeing near/on the same plant. I was also looking at nitrogen-fixing plants, but I'm not sure if that would actually help since they help fixate nitrogen in the soil which is the opposite of what I'd need. :lol: I'll have to see if I can find something specifically on plants that require high nitrogen or something & see if they'd do well in the enclosure. This issue might be more of an experimental one to wait & see what happens & fix problems as they come up or something. And both of these issues might end being not so concerning if she decides to stick to one potty area or just potty on/around her wheel or something.

Thanks for sharing the pictures!  I might save them as well. I already have a folder going for general bio-active inspiration pictures & specifically for ball python set ups.


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## Draenog

Priorities... :lol:

I only have experience with custodians in humid vivs, so I don't know much about drier habitats, but adding stones/tiles makes sense. It does sound interesting but I'm not sure if it's something I'll be doing, since I have multiple hedgehogs and limited space, so I'll have to stack them... and making a drainage system for multiple cages on top of each other sounds rather complicated and might take up more room than I'd like. 

As for the mealworms, sounds like what happens with my tenrec. He doesn't always eat all his bugs and he lives in a glass viv so they can't get out. I often just throw in crickets etc. for him to hunt. Yesterday I suddenly saw a HUGE black thing walking around, I'd never seen one like it before!
Turns out a superworm hatched in his tank and those beetles are massive... :lol:


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## octopushedge

Kelsey, you're getting dangerously close to building a hydroponic garden  A friend of mine had one before he moved, where the bottom level was a very natural goldfish aquarium while the top level was plants. The water cycled from the aquarium to the plants and back, providing nitrates/nitrites to the soil and filtered water back to the fish. It was very very cool and basically maintained itself once it got going.

The sickness I've been trying to avoid dealing with the last few weeks has finally caught up to me, so I'm stuck in bed with my crappy laptop and may be a little bit nonsensical. Please ask for clarification if necessary.

The biggest custodian that has popped into my head over and over during this discussion are dung beetles/scarabs. They naturally live in very dry environments and make do by collecting feces from other animals. As gross as it sounds, it's a haven for them because it provides nutrients, moisture, and shelter. I wonder how well they'd do in a hedgehog terrarium.

My university/city is a pretty big agricultural hub, so I'll see what I can find by digging around. My field of study is landscape architecture, and while I'm primarily interested in urban design and transit, we are required to know quite a lot about ecology and botany (she says, avoiding the list of plants she needs to memorize before Tuesday's test...). I've already contacted one professor to pick his brain on some habitat construction lecture he gave us the other day, and just this morning emailed a man we were put in contact with who runs the arboretum. As I said before, anything I can pick up, I'll forward to you guys. 

I also took a look at random points throughout the belt in Africa hedgehogs can be found along. As Draenog said, it consistently showed scrubland. This is dry, relatively flat plains with mostly grasses and a few shrubs. Unfortunately I cannot show the images right now, but even closer to rivers the same type of habitat still showed up. There's a lot of sunlight with occasionally dots of shade provided by shrubs. I imagine any plants in this environment is going to demand a lot of light, and will likely have deep roots to resist wind. However, take that with a big grain of salt. Botany is not a specialty of mine, and my knowledge does not go much further than Southern Ontario plants.

As an aside, I listened to Reggie last night when I was laying in bed. Typically he'll get up, maybe eat a bit, then run on his wheel for a while. From there he alternates between digging around in his box, eating, playing with his toilet paper roll, and running. The wheel is always number one on his list.

Well, last night I heard him crawl out, eat a worm, and then go straight for the sand box. There was a little bit of scratching, but then afterwards most of the time was the sound of sand grinding and little else. Based on the patterns I see in it in the morning, I can only assume he's flopping around and rolling in it. Afterwards he went back to his usual routine, occasionally dropping back into the sandbox to roll around. I'm really thrilled that he actively seeks it out. It also seems to help a bit with poop boots, though now the wheel has small grains of sand tracked on it...


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## twobytwopets

Does playing in sand count as exercise? Clearly compared to sitting it would. Ok... Let's not debate calories burnt here.

I tried looking up bioactive habitats for sulcatas... I found.... Here's the link....NOTHING.
Then I backed it up to desert animals, mostly leopard geckos. It may be due to the number of keepers/collectors as well as trends in husbandry.


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## Lilysmommy

That makes sense, Draenog! It would definitely be a huge task to try & do something like this for multiple hedgehogs. I'm actually thinking that even if we start out with this in a C&C cage while I save up money, I may get Bindi a similar viv to what I'm getting for the ball python. This cage isn't exactly what I'm getting for the snake - http://www.apcages.com/home/terrestrial/T10/T11.GIF but close (they don't have a picture of the one I'm getting yet). The one in the picture is 4 feet long, 2 feet wide & 2 feet tall. I'm going with one with the same floor space but 3 feet tall so I have plenty of room for deep substrate & to give her at least one higher platform to climb to if she wants.

So...if the bio-active seems like it's going to work out well (even if not), I may get the same cage for Bindi! It's way less expensive than others I've seen of a similar or smaller size - $350. The cages have ventilation slots in the back of the cage. I may see if I can specially request more/different ventilation on the sides if I get one for Bindi, for better cross ventilation. You can get screened holes for the top to place heat lamps on, but I'm planning to use a radiant heat panel for the snake and may go the same way for Bindi if I like the one for the snake. If this all does work out & I end up with a second hedgehog, I think I could do a similar set up in a second cage exactly like this one & just stack them on top of each other.

Yeah, I've declared superworms banned. I'm willing to deal with frozen millipedes (though my friend voted those out), but superworms creep me out too much. They're too big. Can't do it. :lol: I'm fine with bugs, but I think I'd be a little freaked out seeing a superworm beetle in the cage!!

Someone mentioned scarab beetles once on my bio-active group. I might post & see if anyone knows where to order some, or if it's possible. The problem that was mentioned previously is that different species are specific to certain kinds of poop. And I can't recall if they said most or all, but I think most are geared towards herbivore poop, so they'd be unlikely to do much with hedgie poop. But I may still try to do some searching on that.

I was already thinking mainly grasses for planting, though I was also trying to figure out if maybe some other small plants might do okay. Something like dandelion, which should be fine if she eats any part of the plant. It'd be interesting if there was something shrub-like that I could plant that wouldn't get too big...I know there are like, bonzai trees, but I don't know if those require super specialized care or what, or if they're even safe.

That's great that Reggie is enjoying his sandbox so much!  I was actually thinking about whether the sand/bio-active substrate would help with poop boots, that the friction would help rub some off before it dries, and would help get it loose even after drying. I was working on editing one of the articles for the main site & talking about foot baths when I was thinking about it.

Twobytwo, I can link my bio-actives Facebook group if you're interested. I'm not sure if anyone on there has sulcatas, but you could ask. I know some people have quite large animals, like monitors (I've seen savannahs mentioned numerous times) that may have similar challenges in terms of size & space, and the group's files discuss set ups for semi-arid species like bearded dragons & leopard geckos, which might help. But really, it sounds like for the animals that aren't commonly kept as pets, people start by checking out the native environment & what kind of soil it has, what kind of plants, what the humidity is like, and the temperatures, and then go from there to try & figure out what kind of substrate mix to have, how much moisture should be in the environment, and what kind of temperatures, and from there you can figure out what kind of plants would do well in that kind of environment.


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## FinnickHog

I know we have a list of safe foods for hedgehogs, but is there a confirmed list of safe semi-arid to arid plants? (Aloe vera, for example.) I think knowing what I have to choose from for plants and bugs are my starting points right now. Before I moved I had access to a decent zoo and could have asked them but now I'm out in the boonies . I work with springtails a lot, as well as bean weevils. I think the weevils might be okay in a moist layer below my main substrate, but I'm still in the research phase. I'm going to be seeing my dart frog mentors next weekend and I'll ask them what they know.

I have two of those same habitats favorited Draenog! I found them with a google image search.

I'll make a seperate post for my snake habitats and upgrades once I have some free time. I'm still job hunting and it's been 3 months now, so I'm pretty busy running around every day. I'm almost finished with my "discount skink hut extrordinaire" as I've been calling it, so I'll post some pictures of that too. It's just coroplast with a wooden frame, but it's huge. I'm thinking of building Finn something similar but with plexiglass.


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## twobytwopets

Not hedgehog list but this is one that was saved as one of my bookmarks.
http://africantortoise.com/edible_plants.htm
Tortoises will eat almost everything in their habitat if they can. I joke that mine are my lawn mowers. 
It looks like native ranges overlap.


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## Lilysmommy

I don't know of any such list for hedgehogs, unfortunately, at least not in English. Since so few people on this side of the ocean do a naturalistic set up that does include live plants, there hasn't been any research or anything done towards something like that, as far as I know.

In addition to the link Twobytwo posted, I have these bookmarked from the same site - http://africantortoise.com/edible_landscaping.htm and http://africantortoise.com/toxic_plants_and_flowers.htm I would also check sites that have lists of toxic/unsafe plants for cats and dogs since that has been used as a basis for dangerous fruits & veggies that should be avoided. I think it'd be a bit closer since hedgehogs are mammals, not reptiles, but it's hard to tell sometimes. The ASPCA has nice lists for cats, dogs, and horses - https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/toxic-and-non-toxic-plants It helps that hedgehogs are mostly unlikely to really eat much of a live plant, but would likely only chew if they think it smells good or something. Still not good if the plant is toxic, but I would guess less chance of something going wrong.

I think my plan right now is to look for plants that would fit in terms of humidity, temperature, hardiness, and space, and then research the specific plant to see what's known about its toxicity to animals.

Also, I know plenty of people would already know this, but just wanted to mention just in case - keep in mind that whatever's planted in the enclosure needs to have the whole plant safe in case of ingestion. So fruits/vegetables that may be safe for hedgehogs to eat may have other parts of the plant (stem, leaves, etc.) that are toxic, so they still shouldn't be planted in the enclosure.


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## twobytwopets

That's why I shared the page I did. Generally if a tort like a sulcata can get to the whole plant, they will eat the whole plant. Roots, stems, leaves and fruits. They like to weed eat!! 

I have to wonder why Americans are, for lack of a better term, anti-nature when it comes to our animals habitat. No not all, this is a generalized statement, but we like our pre-packaged un-natural environments for our pets.


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## FinnickHog

Thanks guys! I'll have a good look at what's available around here in conjunction with those sites and see what I come up with. 

On the bean weevil side of things, looks like they're a no go. They'll just eat all the plants.


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## Draenog

Don't think there are plant lists for hedgehogs, but ones for other pets should work just fine I think.

Are dung beetles even for sale? I've never looked into it. Not sure if they would like hedgehog poop...

I'll see if I can find anything about plants for hedgehogs in other languages. Maybe there are a few lists out there.



twobytwopets said:


> I have to wonder why Americans are, for lack of a better term, anti-nature when it comes to our animals habitat. No not all, this is a generalized statement, but we like our pre-packaged un-natural environments for our pets.


(Sorry if this is off-topic but I've been thinking about this before) I don't know why exactly, but I think it falls in line with the "perfect pet" vision that gets applied to a lot of animals in the US (not by everyone of course!) It is almost like pets aren't seen as real animals anymore. 
It's not just hedgehogs and it's not just about housing, but about the entire animal. It appears as if some people in the US are so focussed on the appearance of the animal they completely change breeds or sometimes even go as far as to apply plastic surgery on their animals (I've seen this happen with Arabian horses for example).
Maybe it is a cultural difference where the American "plastic fantastic" vision and the need for clean, sterile environments gets applied to pets as well (and even children. Think about the beauty pageant culture)?

It might vary per state, or even be illegal in some, but think about things like declawing cats, cropping ears and docking tails (dogs and horses) as well. The horrors of shoeing American saddlebred horses, just so they can walk in an extremely unnatural manner which is considered beautiful. Breeding miniature horses for size, always wanting them to be smaller and smaller (leading to defects like equine dwarfism). Same goes for chihuahuas. Changing breeds completely, or "improving" them like they call it. I know more of horses than animals like dogs so I'll show some horse breeds; this is a Shetland pony. And this is an American Shetland pony. Of course almost all breeds look different now than they did a hundred years ago because breeding standards always change, but the regular Shetland still looks like the sturdy working pony from a harsh climate. The American one is bred to the extreme for an elegant appearance, for show.
Then there's the Belgian Draft horse, another working horse. What happened with this horse in the US? It was bred to be taller, lighter bodied, and have longer, less hairy legs. This is the story of almost every breed they imported, and not just with horses - the animals need to be bigger, or smaller, more elegant, more showier, flashier gaits, more hair, less hair...

Declawing, docking, cropping etc. is illegal in many European countries (or simply not done at all) but still widely practised in the US. 
Of course there are big differences between US states just like EU countries and I am not trying to say Europe is better than the US!! I mean, bull fighting is still practised in Spain, there are many badly treated stray dogs/cats in countries like Greece etc. etc. Just like there are many Americans who do not practise the things mentioned above. But I do think there is an American trend of breeding/keeping animals a certain way - you'll see it here as well sometimes with some breeds, to a lesser extent, and it's being referred to as an American influence. 
Of course I've been naming extremes now. But I think there's a trace of it in the US, sometimes unconsciously, with keeping many animal species including the APH.


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## Draenog

Um, I tried to post a reply but it says it needs to be approved by a mod first? Weird... do you guys see it or not?


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## FinnickHog

I can see it. That's strange...


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## Draenog

I don't see it. Maybe I'm not allowed to post on the forum anymore :lol:


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## FinnickHog

Okay, now I just see Two's post, my post, then your post asking if we see your other post.


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## octopushedge

RIP Draenog


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## Draenog

I didn't see it on my computer but I can see it on mobile. It has happened before, I think they're trying to tell me something


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## Lilysmommy

I just got here & approved your post, Draenog. :lol: The forum does it sometimes if there are numerous links in the post to other sites, I think it's meant to help catch spam posts. Usually it just catches our members' posts and the spam posts only use one link anyway! :roll:

Regarding the subject of Americans being weird with our animals, Draenog definitely has a point, but I think in terms of the "sterile enclosure" idea for pets, it's something we've been doing as a whole in recent years (last 10-20 years or something). It's done with kids too - sanitize the whole environment, use strong cleaning products, make sure everything stays "germ-free". Except we're finding out that actually doesn't work quite as well as we think it does, and the same goes for animals. Particularly animals that aren't domesticated and really do better in a more natural set up, such as reptiles. Not to say that they don't do perfectly fine in a proper "sterile" enclosure with the right enrichment, choices, etc., but there are certain benefits from bio-active, I think.

I'll be working on more research for all of this today, after I finish fixing up articles for the main site pages, so I'll post if I find anything interesting to share! I started looking for shrubs that might work to plant in an enclosure that wouldn't get too big & could deal with the conditions and so far I found this - http://www.naturehills.com/boxwood-baby-gem Need to read up more on it, but so far it looks good. Moderate growth rate, mature height & width of 2-3 feet, but can be trimmed as well, and it's heat & drought tolerant. Needs average to moist soil, but I think that could be workable with having the different ranges of humidity within the soil. Going to keep looking though! And I need to check & see if this shrub pops up on any toxic lists too.


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## octopushedge

This is getting a bit off-topic, but I'd like to contribute anyways :lol:
Long post incoming!

It's a few things: Remember that America, putting aside the First Nations people, was colonized primarily by the English. Of course there's a menagerie of French, Dutch, and Spanish, but the ones that really persisted and created the foundations for today were the English. As a result, a lot of their cultural ideals and values have persisted.

Traditionally speaking, owning pets of all kinds has been a luxury. It's a sign that not only are you able to provide life for your own family, but that you can afford to have animals for fun and companionship. When I was still an art student, in history classes I specialized in modern (16-19th century) English artwork. Historically the majority of art we know has been commissioned by the rich, and at this time in England it was your stereotypically hoitie-toitie smoke-a-pipe-and-go-to-the-fox-hunt rich.

Backtracking a bit, a big sign of wealth back in this time was having land specifically set aside for hunting. You would let this land go wild sans maybe a few fences or bridges here or there. You were basically saying "I am soooooo rich, I don't even have to care about what happens to this land!". You would invite your colleagues over and show off via horseback how far and wild your land is, and the coolest way to do this was to host a fox hunt.

The paintings are somewhat deceptive in this regard. They usually show a handful of people with a dog or two each milling about. In reality, you're looking at every person bringing tens of dogs. After all, you want to win, and the more dogs you have the better your chances. Plus, you can show off how wealthy you are because you can afford to feed and have caretakers for all of these dogs. Fox hunts easily had a hundred dogs running.

Now, this is where I digress from what I know as fact and start speculation: I imagine as time went on and dogs as utility became less necessary, it became another sign of wealth. Basically, my dog is so screwed up that he can't hunt, but I can afford him as a companion anyways. Remember a lot of "weird" dogs originally were shaped for specific purposes - dachshunds could fit into weasel burrows, bulldogs were able to grab onto the ring of a bull's nose, hounds could keep up with horses, etc.

I think some of that attitude has persisted to this day. People treat their animals like human children, referring to them as "furbabies" and themselves as "moms". They don't train their pets properly, often to their detriment. We've removed them so far from "animal" status that we make them wear clothes for no good reason, don't let them walk (how many people do you know that carry their small dogs everywhere?), and sanitize everything they touch. *Edit: *I do think this comes from a good place in the heart, wanting to make sure your pet stays healthy. However, the wealth side of things still persists, such as in China: 




I think this trend is starting to reverse as people are realizing animals are much happier and healthier being closer to their natural selves. I'm curious how long it'll take.

As an aside, the whole "having land for no real purpose" is why lawns are such a staple in American culture. It's why California is having a real struggle convincing people/home owner's associations to cut down on watering lawns or move to xeriscaping. There are companies out there right now who will literally paint people's lawns green because they can be fined if their lawn isn't up to par. It's very interesting and ridiculous how deep these outdated cultural values can run.


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## octopushedge

I mean, even look at us. We spend somewhere around $200-300 for a single small exotic animal, and why? Because we think it's cute and want one as a companion.


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## twobytwopets

Adding to what octopushedge said about the dogs....
So many times people have dogs that couldn't begin to tell you what the dog was originally breed for. One main reason is the fact that we breed those physical characteristics out of them. You see it in certain breeds like the English bulldog. It is so far from the original type, that in the 70's a man re-created a breed to be closer to the original English bulldog, the Olde English Bulldogge. 

There is nothing wrong with having an animal just for companionship, but there is also a strange phenomenon where owners complain because their dog does something it's intended to do. "My hound dog won't shut up" "my terrier keeps digging up my roses" "my border collie keeps nipping at my ankles". If people could take the time to figure out how to deal with these natural behaviors, everyone could be a lot happier. 

Translate that into hedgehogs. They weren't breed really with a purpose in mind, still very much the way nature intended. So keeping the point with dogs in mind, if we give them as many enrichment activities and habitat set ups that as closely resemble their natural habitat as we can safely provide, they would most likely be happier if not healthier. I'm not sure we'd be able to fully mimic the full thing, I don't have miles for them to run and can't give them the temperature they need. I can not cover my entire property to prevent hawks from picking up a wandering hedgehog. So then we'd need to shrink it down. Find other ways for them to get the same activity. They can't run for miles, so we give them a wheel. The dry bath is most likely a way we could provide some natural environment/activity for them. It would be interesting to see what things we might see changing in them when something like playing in sand becomes a normal behavior. Possibly less stressed and huffy hedgehogs!


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## octopushedge

I'll keep you guys posted on if Reggie's behaviour changes. I am noticing his poop boots are becoming less of a problem, and I also noticed the sand is blocking up his nails when they accidentally get cut too short (similar to Kwik Stop). He's been spending many hours in bed with me this weekend keeping me company while I'm sick, so I don't want to make any definitive behaviour judgements just yet. Obviously a hedgehog that spends many hours with their owner a day is going to be less huffy than a hedgehog who only spends half an hour a day with them. On average he probably spends 2-4 hours a day around me, whereas this weekend it's been more like 6-8. He is on the huffier side of personalities as far as I can tell, even after having him for 8 months, but I wonder how much of that comes from his original owner being a 13 year old who likely did not handle him well.

On bulldogs, here's a painting from 1790 of an English Bulldog: 









And here's a photo taken from the American Kennel Club website of a good standard English Bulldog:








In less than 250 years we've completely changed the ideal standard of an English Bulldog. That's just a blink of an eye for nature.


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## twobytwopets

Only a slight difference between the two dogs. I'm sure there are other examples of animals that have been adjusted, but with English Bulldog vs. the traditional one the difference is drastic. 
Also with the changes the breed went through, many health issues came about. They almost always have to be delivered via c-section, breathing issues, as well as an intolerance to heat. 

Also pointing out, this whole thread was started because someone watched a YouTube video. Apparently, youtube is good for something other than watching funny videos when we should be doing something functional!


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## Draenog

That could be it then, I'm spamming too much :lol: 
Kelsey, your link isn't working for me? I get an error.
Edit: oh wait, that's what many people here (including us) have in their gardens, we call it buxus. It's indeed very easy to trim but it's listed as toxic as far as I know.

Octopushedge: it does seem to have its roots in American (colonial) culture. It doesn't seem to have to do that much with the British, as it has to do with the whole colonial thing (since we see the same things happen in other colonies, from other countries. Before the British were well established in the US the Dutch "owned" half of the world, the Spanish and Portuguese had their share too, and pets seem to have been used or bred as luxury items by all those nations). I think it's very interesting so I did some more research on the subject. 
Pets were a luxury item in many countries, not just England, especially during the Middle Ages. After that time there were pets but most animals were still working animals, cattle etc. Rich people could afford pets, the others couldn't. 

What seems to be one of the most important times for 'pet culture' in both US and Europe, the 19th century, is actually the time when pets weren't such a luxury item anymore. Pets were becoming more common when a larger middle class emerged during the mid 1800s, even though they were still kept as a status symbol as well (esp the rare species). 
During the Victorian era pets were quite common and very beloved, and they were often bought for children. In the middle/late 1800s people were keeping nearly all species kept in captivity now, with the exception of the more recently "domesticated" exotic mammals, reptiles, fish etc. 
This is middle and upper class though; the poorer people didn't really keep (special) pets, and it was thought it would keep them from their work. 

Interestingly enough, purebred dogs weren't very popular in the US (they still are a minority), and they did not become truly popular until around 1940; purebred dogs were more of a status symbol, so most of the pets of the "common" people were mixed breeds. There were purebred dogs of course during earlier times, but the biggest growth of purebred dog registrations was between 1960-70.

Pet stores started popping up as well; the pet business in the US was very commercial. Bird food was the first commercial food on the market. Dry dog food was invented because it could generate a lot of money, even though it wasn't really needed. Canaries were imported from pet shops in Germany, other animal breeds came from various places in Europe, and some new species came from British colonies like Australia (budgies for example). I do not know if the pet business in the US was more commercial than in other countries though. There were puppy mills as well even though most people didn't approve of the idea of dogs being bred as livestock. 

As for more recent changes, the biggest ones seem to have started around the 1970s, with the rise of the more "natural" movements in recent years, like raw feeding. Maybe as a reaction against the "clean & sterile", the extreme breeding of certain breeds, and the commercialism of the pet business. 

I'm just guessing now, but the difference between pet keeping in the US and Europe in more recent times might also have to do with the Great Depression and everything that followed, mainly WWII. While the world was trying to battle the financial trauma and unemployment of the Great Depression, Europe was caught in another war.
Of course this indirectly (and more directly, after their involvement) affected the US as well - but not being bombed and invaded meant WWII actually had quite a positive outcome for the US. Their involvement in WWII got the US out of the depression, created job opportunities during the war and there was a big boost in the economy after the war as well, since many (luxury) items hadn't been available so people started buying them againa; a lot of people had saved money during war times, so there was money to spend. These are just a few of the positive sides of WWII for the US. 
While Europe was still torn to shreds, tending to its wounds with the help of the US, the nation was rising: it was wealthy, and had no battle damage. 

Now, with the US being the new "superpower", I can imagine the return of pets as somewhat of a status symbol/fashion accessory esp with the strengthened nationalism WWII had created. 
Europe might have had other things to think about (after all, they just came out of two wars, were still divided and then there was the Soviet Union knocking on their door); maybe the US just carried on with their extreme breeding which was established in the 19th century, and later the import of exotic animals like reptiles. Many new species, including our own pet hedgehogs, have started their path onto domestication in the US. With the US being "hot" after WWII, pets might have been a way to show status, especially new pets and certain purebreeds, just like they were before. 
I remember reading about dogs, like poodles (sometimes with dyed fur) being a fashion item in the US in the 1950s, carried around in bags by women. 
The pet business for which the commercial foundations were laid during the 18th/19th century, has been growing ever since. Exotic animals were also easier to keep now there were new, cheaper ways of heating homes. 

I think right now the pet business in western EU is similar to that of the US, but there's still a general difference in keeping and breeding pets like we've discussed before. 
Besides the development of pets in the Victorian era, there is of course the history of the US and slavery, which differs from Europe (of course it were the Europeans who took the slaves to the US, but slaves were mostly used in the colonies of the Europeans, not their home countries). Some people owned large amounts of lands, had plantations with slaves, and pets would have been part of it. If we go back to horses, breeds like the saddlebred I've been talking about earlier were specifically bred for wealthy plantation owners. These breeds were supposed to look elegant, and be comfortable: hence them having extra gaits. That way the plantation owners could ride around comfortably on their property. There are similar breeds developed by the Spanish colonialists in South America. 

Then there are differences between countries in the EU. I've mainly talked about western Europe since that's where I live and know most about, but in certain countries, pets can be seen more as a status symbol as well (horses in Spain or Portugal for example). I think in every country pets can be seen as a status symbol though, like certain breeds of bull dogs, pit bulls etc. We have that here too. 
But the "clean & sterile" and the extreme breeding in the US seems to be coming from something else. 

The US/UK definitely have a special connection, one of the other reasons is probably language; as I've mentioned before, it's likely the Americans and the British exchange more information (online) since they share the same native language. 
One thing the US/UK seem to share for example is horse racing, which isn't nearly as popular in other European countries. I don't know if their view on pets is very similar to the US though, at least with hedgehogs I've seen a lot of different opinions in the UK. 
There's another thing that comes to mind; Americans (and I believe the British too) do not eat horse meat. But a lot of other European countries do. We have slaughter houses for horses here and you can buy horse meat in the supermarket. 

(It's been years since I had any US history classes btw, so correct me if I'm wrong on something!)

Funny you mention the "mom" thing; this indeed seems to be very American. Here at least no one goes around saying they're the mum to their pets. 
(It just has me looking at my hedgehog like 'yeah... I really, really did not give birth to that' :lol: )


By the way, exotics are priced a lot higher in the US than here in my country, even if they are less common here. I have never paid more than €70 for a hedgehog.
The price in the UK is more similar to the US (APH are more common in the UK) and prices in Germany, Czech Republic, etc. are a bit higher as well but the (to me) extreme prices above 200 are something I rarely see outside of the US and UK. 
It might also have to do with how popular the pets are. They're rare and relatively unknown here and therefore do not sell extremely well.


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## octopushedge

I think you nailed it fairly well. I'm Canadian so I'm sorely lacking in US history even though we share a border - most of my knowledge comes from when our histories crossed over, typically from the English perspective. As similar as we are, there are still fairly large cultural differences between Canada and the USA. I'm assuming a lot of it has to do with the presence of the French in Canada, as well as our different climates leading to different industries (for instance, the slavery trade wasn't really a thing here, and many slaves from the Southern USA actually came to Canada to escape). 

You are correct in that horse meat is not eaten here. In general we have fairly weird ideas on what's acceptable to eat or not - very few people eat animals such as duck, rabbit, or deer. Those who do are typically hunters or First Nations people. A lot of people get upset with the idea that you could eat such a "cute" animal, yet cows and pigs are just as friendly and intelligent as our dogs are. 

Of course, I can't provide an unbiased commentary on that hypocrisy anymore since I'm mostly vegan... :lol:


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## octopushedge

Draenog, I'm just curious regarding exotic pricing, is social media like Youtube, Facebook, Instagram etc. as popular in your country? I feel like a lot of that nowadays is what's driving exotic pet demand because people see a unique animal and feel the need to have one. Instagram is probably one of the biggest drivers of demand for tigers and lions, believe it or not, because rich people post pictures of themselves with their exotic pets. It's gotten so bad that in some countries people are blatantly selling exotics through these mediums.


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## twobytwopets

Another factor that I wonder about with pricing. 
Draenog, would you say hedgehog ownership is possibly be in it's "infancy" in your country?


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## Draenog

I think the history you're getting in school is always focussing largely on your own country, if any of the Americans here note any mistakes in my post, please do correct them. I probably don't know half as much about your country as you do.

Some of that hypocrisy can be found here as well, but while horse meat is less popular than other types of meat, it's not being frowned upon. At least I think it's less popular. I wouldn't know either since I've been a vegetarian my entire life, all I know is horse meat is commonly for sale at butchers and supermarkets. Rabbit, duck, deer and such are more luxury meats here I think (unlike Canada, you can't really hunt here). 

Social media and such are just as popular as they are in the US/Canada  
I think we might have stricter rules towards the keeping of exotics though, on top of being an incredibly small but extremely densely populated country. For someone from the US/Canada the tininess and population of my country might be hard to grasp, just like I have a hard time imagining a country as big as yours! 
Big exotics like tigers and such aren't really kept in my country, as far as I know. It might be illegal anyway, or the rules are very strict. Since this year we have new lists for exotic mammals, all the animals on the red list are illegal to keep (APH were almost on that list as well but fortunately got removed). They are still working on the list and keep adding animals. I wouldn't be surprised if lions and such will end up on the red list. We're also bound by EU and CITES rules.

As for hedgehog keeping, they aren't very popular here (yet?). We do not have a lot of breeders, just a few, and 99% doesn't use pedigrees. Most hedgehogs are being sold through our national version of something similar to Craigslist. I just checked and as of now, there are 5 rehomes and 8 babies for sale (and two ads from a pet shop which sells APH too), which I'd actually consider quite a lot. They seem to get a bit more popular nowadays and I do notice a rise in interest, probably due to some media attention they got recently. 

You'd think a rare animal would be more expensive; back in the early 90's, a pet hedgehog in the US could cost over 1000 dollar. But they were probably more desired. I think the main difference is them not being very well known or popular here. And I think quite some people buy their hedgehogs from other countries, esp if you are living close to the German border. We have a large exotic animal expo here a few times a year, where breeders from many countries come to sell their animals, including hedgehogs. The two APH I have now come from that expo - I bought one of them there from a Czech Republic breeder. The other is a rehome, but was originally bought there from a breeder from Germany. 

But it's not just hedgehogs, certain other animals seem to be less expensive here too. I have a lesser hedgehog tenrec, they usually sell for something like €80-100. These same animals cost between 600-900 dollar in the US! They are rare there, more so than here, but I wouldn't really call them very common pets here either. But I think the size of our countries makes a difference as well. Even if something is quite rare in my country, I might be able to get it from another. If I drive little over five hours I am in Paris. This means I just passed through an entire country (Belgium) and landed in the capital of France. If I wanted, I could drive to another country and get a hedgehog (which not many people are doing though, I think, since in our view, that's a huge distance. Distance perception is another thing that differs a lot depending on where you live).

Or maybe pets just are relatively cheap compared to the US/Canada - although I think the more common pets would be comparable in price. How much would, let's see, a dog, cat, rabbit, rat, ferret, chinchilla, guinea pig, hamster, etc cost over there? Or more exotic animals?


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## twobytwopets

Dogs and cats are a huge variable. You see prices range from free to a couple thousand dollars. 
Rabbits, locally $10-$70 depending on breed and purpose. 
Chinchilla, that's about $75-$125 for a standard gray.
Guinea pig, $15-30
Hamster $5-15

Those prices are breeder prices and not pet store prices. Pet stores have different overhead and the prices they charge reflect this. Example: a normal (no color mutation) green cheek conure baby that is fully weaned will sell locally for about $125-$200, $200 is on the high end of the spectrum, with a breeder. A pet store will sell the exact same bird for $300+

I think in regards to the eating of animals, it's regionally different. I don't know anyone who currently eat horse meat, but can think of 2 different people who have in the past from very different backgrounds. Venison is a normal meat, not available in stores but very common. Rabbit is somewhat common, again not found in the super markets. Duck is in the stores, I personally don't know as many that eat it. Goose is somewhat common.
It's worth noting that my area is very rural.


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## octopushedge

See, that's interesting because those prices you listed are what I would pay in a pet store for an animal. It actually worries a little bit because it's so easy to spend less than $10 and walk out with a small animal. I feel like if the prices were higher or there were more barriers, you'd have less people tossing animals out as soon as they start causing trouble. For instance, I know in Toronto pet stores are forbidden from selling dogs/cats that haven't been registered through the humane society, and no one can adopt one of these animals without going through an extensive background check. 

Draenog, you may be spot-on with the country size thing. Realistically nothing is going to get into Canada or the USA unless it's coming from across the ocean, where then customs would have to do some heavy quarantining. All of that is going to be reflected in the pricing, and I imagine it's part of the reason local breeders can make a decent business here. Of course there's always smuggling as well, but that's a whole different conversation entirely.

Off-topic: I moved from one province to the next one over on the map. It took three days of driving about 16 hours a day :lol: Canada is verrrrrrry big.

Back to the topic at hand, something occurred to me today when I was cleaning Reggie's wheel: Sand isn't the easiest thing to clean off and is very abrasive. I'm wondering what the long-term effects of having it kicking around will be on his stuff. He's so into it now though I can't imagine taking it away, but it is definitely something to consider. I typically wash his stuff in the shower and drain the dirty water into the toilet (long story, don't ask), but most people who are going to be rinsing things in the sink may have to consider the effect of sand on the pipes.


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## twobytwopets

Guinea pig and hamster prices were probably right on with pet stores. I don't know of a lot of people that breed them, other than some crazy stuff like the skinny pigs. Also I don't follow the prices of them as much.


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## Lilysmommy

Your comments about the US's history sound pretty accurate to me, Draenog. Granted, I hated US history in school (I love history - I just don't like this country's history & it's what was always shoved on us at school :roll, so I probably actually know less than you. :lol: I'm doing my best these days to learn about history of other cultures & countries since I never got the chance to do so in school. 

I know the US in general lacks a lot of legislation that protects animals that many European countries seem to have. Draenog already mentioned things like cropping, docking, declawing, etc. But many states don't have any laws against people owning wildlife (though it's usually discouraged, at least), or even if there are laws, it's often not monitored or enforced well. Michigan has laws that make it illegal to own or have a wild animal in your home unless you have intent to take it to a rehab facility within 48 hours, unless you have a special license (rehab, falconry, etc.). But it's poorly enforced, even when there's harm to the animal because of it. We had a woman who was illegaly "rehabbing" animals because people brought them to her even though she wasn't licensed or educated specifically on it at all. She brought us an owl chick that she'd had for three months since it was a couple days old. She claimed she'd had a vet check it out, etc. It was all a bunch of BS - the owlet had a compound fractured leg from falling out of its nest that had never been touched, and had bumblefoot (infected sores) on the other foot due to trying to compensate & avoid putting weight on the broken leg. Three months with its legs in this condition. And to top it off, she had no clue how to feed him (though she certainly thought she did) and he had metabolic bone disease so badly that his wings were curved into C shapes. She was extremely rude to us, said she didn't have the time to bother with the "nonsense" of getting legally licensed, etc. We reported her to the DNR, and yet she probably still got nothing but a slap on the wrist and is carrying on with "rescuing" animals.

Our exotic animal laws are pretty laughable too. Some states still have no laws. One of the worst until recently was Ohio and the only reason their laws changed was from an incident where a man let dozens of large carnivores (lions, tigers, leopards, bears, and I believe a couple primates) loose, then killed himself. The animals were all destroyed because there was no safe option to recapture them. This prompted a massive public outrage and Ohio finally changed its laws regarding owning large exotics. But plenty of other states still have few or no laws about it. And again, the ones that have laws don't always enforce them well. People can own small monkeys, various rare carnivores, large snakes, venomous snakes, alligators, whatever. It's ridiculous.

We just have an huge, huge amount of animals in this country in general. I really think the problem is much, much more serious here than in probably any other country (though I could be wrong - I don't know what the situations are like in other countries). You can get so many species for free on Craigslist from people trying to dump them. Anything commonly sold in a pet store is quite cheap and easy to get and can easily be found by the dozens on Craigslist, depending on where you live. Even the more exotic things like parrots, large parrots, various reptiles, etc. can be found pretty easily on CL. I even found a "breeding pair" of umbrella ****atoos listed for FREE on Craigslist once. I was speechless. It's such a huge business to buy & sell animals in this country & too often animals are regarded as disposable entertainment, status symbols, etc. etc. Not everyone thinks like that, but it's still extremely common. And it's far too common for people not to know how to properly research an animal or prepare for their care - pet stores are still commonly regarded as great sources of information on animal care when half the time they have no clue what they're talking about. Vets are also seen as all-knowing by many people who don't think to do further research or don't think that a vet could possibly be clueless about something. My mom would have taken our vet's word on anything at all for our cat & dog. She fought with me numerous times after I first found this forum with Lily when I wanted to follow information from the forum instead of from the breeder or vet. Any time I mentioned wanting to change something because of information from here, she told me I should double check with the breeder or vet. She couldn't believe that either of those people may not know the right answer or may have wrong information.

Okay, I'll stop ranting off topic. :lol: Your point about the sand & pipes is a very good point, Octopus. When I first got my hermit crabs, I accidentally caused an already partially-existing blockage in our sink to get worse because of rinsing sand down the pipes. I only did it a few times in the first week or so that I had them, but it was enough to contribute to the problem. It would likely be something to rinse separately & throw the water outside or rinse outside or something, to avoid plumbing issues. 

And I agree that it may prove to be hard on plastic bucket wheels. It sounds like something that may require more time & care when cleaning the wheels to avoid scratching them excessively.

Edit: I forgot to mention! I went to a volunteer open house for the Kansas City Zoo tonight, I'm hoping to become an animal care volunteer there. I asked a couple of the program administrators about plants that they use for exhibits & how they choose & if they had any suggestions. They all seemed to think I was on the right track with my plans on how to choose appropriate plants. They have a list of toxic plants that their veterinarian compiled & the animal care volunteer coordinator said he could get that for me if I was interested. Their vet just researches any plants they're interested in for animal enclosures to check for possible toxicity. If I manage to find out more as I get more involved with volunteering, I'll let you guys know!

Oh, and thanks for mentioning that the boxwood plant is toxic, Draenog, I'll take that off my list!  I have a bunch of other potential plants to check out now anyway, that seem like they'd fit parameters as far as size & durability for the set up environment, I just need to check for toxicity next. Anything that's toxic to cats & dogs will be automatically out. If they're not on those lists, I'll do research elsewhere on the specific plant & look for any potential issues.


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## octopushedge

Eeeee I finally saw Reggie in the sand box with my own eyes tonight! I'm so happy! I had just put him back from bonding time. He went into his igloo, watched me put some worms in his dig box, then ran out and grabbed one off the top. He pulled it to his sand box, sat on his butt and ate it. Then he flopped over on his side and rolled around like a maniac. I don't think I've ever seen him so energetic before! He alternated between flopping around and laying flat on his stomach in the sand.

_Ahead typed pretty much in real time. Sorry!

_Now he's wander around the cage scratching himself on different things, which has me a bit worried. At first it was funny watching him rub his butt on his toys, but it's gone on a bit too long. I pulled him back out and checked his skin under the light but didn't notice anything in particular besides small grains of sand flaking into my hands. Maybe this is what they do? Rub the grains on their skin to exfoliate themselves or something? He's still going at it, but now he's moved back to the sand box and is sitting scratching himself in it. Maybe he's collecting the sand on his paws to rub onto himself? It seems to be mostly focused around his head.


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## octopushedge

He moved on to scratching his forehead on the vertical bars on his cage, then decided to flop down and take a nap between the cage wall and his wheel. He seems completely fine. So maybe this is just what they do??? So weird!


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## Draenog

Glad to hear I didn't forget everything :lol: I think the US has an interesting history, but so do many countries. As for US history in school we're obvioulsy focussing more on the colonisation, since we were involved, and less on local things like the Civil War.
I'm fortunate to have had very elaborate history classes (as well as an interest in history from a young age which got encouraged by my parents who kept getting me books) but there's still so much I don't know about. History is such a broad subject. I'm really excited now I have history classes again for my study (I might have gotten more books than needed...) 

It sounds like the (lack of) laws might be a big factor too. I knew there were less laws when it came to keeping exotics, but I didn't know it was that bad. 
Might be one of the reasons many new exotic species are first bred in the US.
Keeping wildlife is forbidden here, but not every country has the same rules about it. I'm not sure how strictly they monitor these rules. As mentioned I've kept wildlife (amphibians) when I was a child, but back then I didn't know it was illegal. However, I don't think many people keep wildlife anyway (or they're smart about it and don't tell anyone). We have many rescues throughout the country. 
The story about the little owl is terrible, the poor thing...

I think many countries have the problem of having too many animals. I've seen a lot of free animals online here as well, especially popular ones like rabbits, hamsters etc. There are so many of them online and in pet stores. Common reptiles like bearded dragons sell for cheap prices online as well (I've seen many for €10 or sometimes even for free) 

Most of our pet stores don't sell cats and dogs though (I've never seen them but I know there are a few). People usually just buy their dogs and cats from breeders. It's not illegal here but it is illegal in some other countries (UK, Belgium).
Most stores just sell the more common pets (rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, rats, mice, gerbils, fish). Often they'll have some common birds as well (canaries, budgies, a few other species) and common reptiles (bearded dragons, leopard geckos, ball pythons). Other shops are more specialised in exotics, some just birds or fish, others reptiles and such as well. 

As for prices, I think they are similar to the ones twobytwopets mentioned. Although chinchilla's seem to be a lot cheaper. I looked them up online and they seem to be around €20-30. Some are a bit more expensive due to colouration but the difference doesn't seem to be very big. I'm not sure how much they'd cost in a pet store though, I don't think that many pet stores sell them anyway.
I think small animals are usually cheaper in pet stores since breeders often sell different colours and ask a bit more since their animals have good lineage. 

Pet stores are regarded by many as a good source of information while they usually really aren't... esp with small animals, or goldfish for example... many people still ask the pet stores for advise. 

Sounds fun Kelsey, I hope it'll go through!

I guess Reggie just really likes it :lol:


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