# I need some help from those with experience.



## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

Our little guy Q, is two years old. On friday I noticed him sleeping in the middle of his inclosure, rather than tucked away in his hedgie bag. Odd, but I touched him and he puffled a little. I let him be.

Yesterday, he was not as responsive as he normally is, so I took him out for a while. He seemed cooler to the touch, but having had a hibernation scare last year, his symptoms dont seem to match. Hes extremely lethargic, and VERY sleepy, but hes not wrapped into a tight ball. Hes not super cold, just cool but after hours on our bodies or in a warm towel, there seems to be no improvement. He shows slight intrest in eating and drinking but nothing seems to get his energy back. Hes not losing quills, his nose isnt runny. But hes in a stupor. He does open his eyes, and he does respond to touch but slowly. When he walks its quite wobbly. (But I don't think wobbly hedgehog as this JUST started happening) I'm thinking words like stroke, but the thought brings me to near tears. 

Were calling his vet today, but her experience with Hedgies are limited. I am really scared I'm losing him. Any thoughts, suggestions or ideas of what could be wrong with my little guy?


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

A vet visit is needed asap. Sleeping out in the open is never a good sign and everything else points to a very sick hedgie. Put a heating pad on low under his cage because sick often need more heat. Start syringe feed and watering him. 

What's his feces and urine like? Has he been loosing weight? It could be just about anything, possibly a tumour somewhere. 

Are there any vets around that are more hedgehog knowledgeable? 

Good luck, keep us posted.


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## ryllisse (Aug 23, 2010)

I don't have much experience yet, so I don't know the answer...

But just perusing the Health forum, there's a sticky about when to visit a vet, and your little Q meets a lot of the bullet points. If I were you, I'd make sure I could get in to the vet this morning. I wouldn't wait.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

Where are you located? Maybe a fellow member knows a good vet in your area.


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

He did pee a little last night and again this morning. This morning it was ON me, which to me is another red flag. It was yellow. He also pooped, slowly this am but it was darker but not black, but also not green. I wish now we had kept it for fecal tests. He reaches out for things like the gerber meat sticks and does try to eat them. Part of me really hopes he is just sick and it will be a few weeks of supervision, syringe feedings and waterings and not cancer or something more. God. I can barely type this out without tearing up. 

I live in Portland Oregon. So yes...if you do know of any experienced vets in the area please let me know! 

The vet opens at 8am. (13 minutes ago) My husband took him to work with him, so after speaking to her, if he has to leave right away hes got Q.


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## Hedgehog Grove (Jul 21, 2010)

Contact Deneen at Hedgiepets, she is in Eugene, OR and should have a recommended and experienced vet she can give you contact details for.


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

I thought of Deneen this morning! I asked her a lot of questions when deciding to take on hedgie ownership. I'll have to look up her information...I wonder if she knows a vet with more experience here in the city. My vet sees exotics and has dealt with hedgies, so I might be counting her out too soon, but when we took him for a wellness checkup she said it was the first time she'd seen a healthy hedgie. :?


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## Hedgehog Grove (Jul 21, 2010)

Krisword said:


> I thought of Deneen this morning! I asked her a lot of questions when deciding to take on hedgie ownership. I'll have to look up her information...I wonder if she knows a vet with more experience here in the city. My vet sees exotics and has dealt with hedgies, so I might be counting her out too soon, but when we took him for a wellness checkup she said it was the first time she'd seen a healthy hedgie. :?


I hope you find a vet with more experience than your own has. Q seems to be very sick and needs to be seen by an experienced hedgie vet. Try giving Deneen a call might be the best option since you need the vet ASAP.


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## Hedgiepets (Aug 21, 2008)

I am not sure who your vet is but, owners from my Yahoo group have listed:

Southwest Animal Hospital: Exotic Animal Practice, Dr. Mark Burgess and Dr. Katrina Ramsell, 6139 SW Murray Boulevard, Beaverton, OR, 97008, (503) 643-2137

Animal Care Clinic, Brent Husband, 29020 Town Center Loop E #102, Wilsonville, Oregon,	97070, (503)682-1794

Emergency Vet Clinic of Tualatin -after hrs, Dr Laughlin - Call Ahead, 19314 SW Mohave Ct, Tualatin, OR, 503-691-7922 

Dove Lewis 205 Mall Plaza, Dr Samuelson - Call Ahead, 10564 SE Washington, Portland, OR, 503-262-7194

I have not used any of these vets.


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

Our current vet is out on vacation. s***! We called a colleague of hers, and he’s also out on vacation. We have an appointment with the first vet you listed, Deneen...but his soonest was tomorrow at 10am. We’re working on calling the others. 

I hate feeling so helpless in this.


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

Okay...I have an appointment in an hour. We found one of the vets Deneen recomended has her own exotics clinic. 

Thank you all for your help. I'll keep you updated. Please pray for Q's health if you think of it today.


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## Sela (Apr 10, 2010)

Good luck, hon...let us know how it turns out. We're thinking of you.


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

Small update. Q is on the way to Dr. Ramsell in Beaverton (who evidently worked under Dr. Burgess for many years). He had nibbled a bit on a turkey stick (the Gerber baby food), and he drank some water. After Deneen's suggestion of a little sugar (maybe about a teaspoon or two in about 6 ounces of water), Q seems to be perking up a bit and drinking rather voraciously. We are still taking him in to see the vet, but we are hopeful!  Thanks everyone, and we will keep you updated.


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## Hedgehog Grove (Jul 21, 2010)

Glad to hear you have found a vet with more experience.

Thank you Deneen for coming to the rescue with that list.

Please keep us up to date on little Q.


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## hercsmom (Jul 6, 2010)

I'm praying for the health of your little one, I'm sure little Q is in good hands. Keep us posted!


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

MITES!!!

The vet did a skin scraping, and he does indeed have mites, and he is very dehydrated. She gave him an infusion of fluids with antibiotics and vitamins, and we will be treating him for mites with medication at home over the next 8 to 10 weeks. We'll keep a very close eye on his input and output over the next few days, and probably offer him water in a dish if he doesn't start drinking from the bottle again. The vet gave us some feeding pipettes if we need them. Also, the vet made some recommendations on food which I thought are worth sharing. While she said wet cat food is better than dry, she recommended Innova Carnivore Care specifically, and also said that earthworms are better and lower in fat than meal worms. He is definitely looking better already, and we are hopeful for a full recovery. Our new vet is Dr. Katrina Ramsell (DVM/PhD), she is located in Beaverton, and her phone number is 503-646-6101. Anyone in the Portland area should DEFINITELY consider her for their hedgie or other exotic. She was very knowledgable and helpful! She wanted to do a blood test, but she said it wasn't essential, and that she didn't want to take blood in his weakened state. She also gave a small dose of anesthetic gas to get the infusion started which was great. She is not working on Friday, but will be calling us to check on him.

Q is on his way home.


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## Hedgiepets (Aug 21, 2008)

Great News! I am glad to hear Q is on the mend.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

That's great news. Being dehydrated will definitely make them lethargic. 

Yes, vets do sometimes recommend Carnivore care. I've tried it a few times and have yet to find one that will eat it. I use Hills A/D when syringe feeding.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

If your little one is very dehydrated you may need more than 1 sub-q of fluids. If you are comfortable with needles, many vets will show you how to sub-q and give you the equipment to do so at home. 

Quills crossed that all goes well and this is issue goes away quickly.


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## Hedgehog Grove (Jul 21, 2010)

Great the hear Q is doing better already and I do hope he makes a full recovery soon.


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

So he's going to be on liquid baytril (antibiotics) and liquid ivomec (for mites). I've seen horror stories about ivomec injections, so we're being cautious. Any thoughts?


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## LyzziFall (Oct 2, 2009)

People with a ton more experience will respond shortly, but I thougt the sooner you hear the better. Do NOT give Q ivomec. It is extremely dangerous for hedgies and many animals because it is so easyto overdose/ give the wrong amount. Most owners on this forum use Revolution, a topical treatment.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

Krisword said:


> We'll keep a very close eye on his input and output over the next few days, and probably offer him water in a dish if he doesn't start drinking from the bottle again.


The water bottle could have been the reason for the dehydration. I would suggest using a water dish from here on out. Hope he makes a full and speedy recovery!


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

He’s already looking so much better! Thanks to all of you who lent a supportive word!

The only thing I have concerns about now, other than his full recovery, is his weight! He’s a little guy, weighing in around 189 grams yesterday. As a two year old hedgie, I expected him to be closer to 400 grams. The vet did say he felt a little underweight. He has access to food, but I think he gets distracted easily. While I’ve been syringe feeding him, he’s really buckled down to eat. But if left to his own devices, he'll take a bite and go run around some more. 

And he’s getting used to the idea of being spoon fed! I’ll tip him back, and he’ll start smacking his lips ready for it. Hahaha. Silly hedgie. 

Is there anything I can do to help fatten him up? I read so much about hedgehog obesity, but not much about helping them GAIN weight.


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## Hedgiepets (Aug 21, 2008)

Some hedgehogs are smaller, just like humans, they all come in different sizes. I would suggest you add some higher fat food to the mix.


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

Like a kitten food? 

I don't want him to gain unhealthy weight, so I'm hesitant to add more mealies to the mix, but I'll stop by petsmart on the way home and scope out some of the wellness kitten. He’s on BLUE indoor right now...I'll have to compare labels. 

I wanted to thank you especially Deneen. Your support and help yesterday went so far! We felt like we had something we could do for him while we secured a vet. By the time his 11am appointment rolled around, he was already looking and feeling stronger with the sugar/water blend we got into his system. I kept telling Dr. Ramsell that it was such a huge improvement from just a few hours earlier.

This morning I came out, and he was happily sitting on his wheel looking up at me.


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

Kitten food is a good way to add fat to the hedgie's diet, as well as increasing the number of mealworms he eats.


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## Hedgiepets (Aug 21, 2008)

I am glad I was able to help.


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## Sela (Apr 10, 2010)

Glad he's doing better, but you really should switch the Ivomec for Revolution instead. I wouldn't trust the topical Ivomec any more than I trust the injection.


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

I have to say, I love Dr. Ramsell, she is a blessing. Between her and Deneen we are in good hands!  I called the vet office yesterday about the ivomec and got a return call just a few hours later from her home. (She also gave us her home number if we had any problems when she's not in the office!) We had a very detailed discussion about ivermectin (Ivomec) vs selamectin (Revolution). (I think she was willing to get a bit more scientific since she knows we work in healthcare.)

Basically, ivermectin and selamectin are very similar drugs in the same family of medications, and they work in very similar ways chemically. The major difference between the two is that ivermectin is given in lower doses and more frequently, while selamectin is given in larger doses and less frequently. In her opinion, since selamectin is a newer on the market (and thus less extensively tested) medication, and since it is given in larger doses which remain in the bloodstream longer, it is potentially more dangerous than ivermectin. (Note that this dosage is not necessarily different in volume, but different in the molar concentration in the bloodstream in relation to body mass.) She did say that ivermectin can be very dangerous when used inappropriately, but the same is true with selamectin. In our case, the recommended safe dosage of Ivomec is between 0.20 and 0.40 mg per kg. The dosage for Q will work out to 0.26 mg/kg which is well within the safe yet effective range. (I may not have recollected the units correctly, but the numbers are right.) Dr. Ramsell also shared information regarding a recent study which was a topic of a recent exotic pet seminar she attended earlier this year, in which selamectin was shown to be more effective in rabbits. However, this is due to a unique metabolic process in rabbits, so it does not apply to hedgehogs. Also of note, Dr. Ramsell has been treating hedgies with Ivomec for over 11 years, and not a single one has had negative reactions to the drug. She plans for a follow up visit after a few weeks of treament, so if possible, we can shorten the treatment length.

Long story short, ONLY take your hedgie to a vet with extensive experience with hedgehogs, and feel free to ask questions when you do! We are so thankful for such a group of hedgehog enthusiansts here!


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm SO glad that Q is doing better!!!


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## Krisword (Sep 8, 2008)

His energy is WAY up...hes back to running. He had a nice soak in an oatmeal bath yesterday. I can say I think this was the first bath he enjoyed!

I have noticed though, his little bum is so red! Is it because of the antibiotics/diarrhea? Is there anything I can put on that to help him? 

His vet went on vacation, but we do have her e-mail address. We may take a picture and send that off to her. But this is such a good resource too!


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