# I need your advice about cancer...



## silversheep (Jan 24, 2011)

I took Marcel in to the vet today because he's eaten little to none since Wednesday. The vet palpated his abdomen and felt two masses which he's pretty sure is cancer. What he wants to do is exploratory surgery, and if possible, remove as much of it as possible. Problem is, if he finds that the cancer is growing on something vital like his bladder or colon, then he recommends euthanasia right on the spot. The vet doesn't know how much time Marcel has left if it's left untreated, and getting rid of the tumors is not completely effective, and in hedgehogs they tend to grow back. So my question is, do I just enjoy what time I have left with Marcel or do the surgery in hopes of buying more time, but risk losing him even quicker, and subject him to the dangers and pain of surgery and recovery? I'd especially value the opinion of those who have gone through this or something similar themselves. Thank you!


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

Silversheep, I can't offer any advice as I haven't had to deal with this issue. I just want to say that whatever decision you make, we are here for you. And I'll be keeping Marcel in my thoughts. I'm sorry this is happening.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm a blubbering mess of uselessness...sorry...I can't help.
 
But my heart goes out to both of you...  
Someone helpful will be along...


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry!! Poor little guy has been through so much. 

I'll be keeping you both in my thoughts as well.


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## V2Neal (Dec 27, 2010)

Some of my decision would rest on how sure the vet was about it being cancer V.S. *just* a tumor.

One of our first dogs developed cancer at 4 years old. The options were; surgery/chemo, etc and the prognosis was it *might* buy him a year, or just make him comfortable and enjoy the time we had left. We chose not to do any surgery or treatment and enjoyed our time with him.
One thing I have learned in dealing with terminal illness is knowing when to say 'When'. 

Only you can decide what is right for you and your pet. This site offers great advice and support for whatever you do.

Good luck.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

Can you get a 2nd opinion?


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Did the vet do xrays? They might give more indication of how successful surgery might be. 

If he were mine, I would love him and spoil him for the time he has left. If he has two masses already, chances are there are more in a spot he can't feel which the xrays might show. 

I'd syringe feed him and see if you can put him on Metacam. It is a pain med. 

Poor little Marcel but there have been a couple of other Tweeds that passed with cancer. How sad for them to escape that HE** HOLE to loving homes and have their lives cut short.


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## CoxMD (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm so sorry.

I can only say what I would do in your situation, and that would be to enjoy the time he has left and let him go when it is time. Basil and I send hugs out to both of you.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I used to do surgery on everyone. I felt they deserved a chance and that surgery would offer them the best chance. Over the years I've come to realize that surgery isn't always the best answer. Yes, sometimes the surgery does extend their lives an amount that makes the pain and stress of surgery worth it. Other times, IMO, the pain and stress of the surgery wasted the short amount of time they had left. I had one gal die on the table and I will always regret the decision to do the surgery as I would have had her or a while longer and been able to say goodbye. I had another girl whom I am certain the surgery sped up the cancer. It had been slow growing to that point and I think the surgery made it take off. She survived 3 weeks from the day of the surgery. Even the vet couldn't believe it had been that short a time. 

I'm very selective on surgeries now and take many things into consideration including age, prior health, and the care hedgie has received during his/her life. It's a really tough decision and no matter what decision you make, you will second guess yourself and do the what if's.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

I agree with Nancy, any that have come down with cancer here, I just kept them comfortable and helped them pass when they seemed to be suffering. I feel, and my vet agrees, that surgery doesn't usually prolong their life by much, so I just want spend as much time as I can with them till its time to help them cross. Its the hardest decision a pet owner has to ever make.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Hedgehogs and cancer, something you will encounter if you have a hedgehog. These little ones just get it.

If you are a visitor to chins-n-hedgies.com you know I have two hedgehogs that have each had two surgeries to remove tumors within the last year. I am one of those that as soon as we find a tumor I start asking about removal as removal is still the best chance our little ones have at a "cure." 

However, not all hedgehogs that have had cancer and lived with me have had surgery. I look at what type of cancer the hedgehog has, how it has behaved so far, where it is located, the age and condition of the hedgehog in question. How likely is the hedgehog to survive? How likely is the vet to be able to fully remove it? How long of a recovery time are we looking at? I try to weigh out how miserable the hedgehog will be during recovery and will it extend the hedgehogs quality of life long enough to make it worth it. I discuss all of this with my veterinarian. I trust my vet. He knows I want quality of life, not just quantity.

Where are the current masses located? Are they deep in the abdomen or up in the tissue layers? If they are deep they may already be attached to organs. X-rays may help, but even those don't always show the true extent of the tumor, I found that out the hard way with General Patton, we thought his would be an easy removal, instead his wrapped around his leg, over his back and was well attached to his chest wall, he was euthanized on the table. Ultrasound may be more useful if your vet has the equipment.

Getting another week or two is great, but if that extra week or two is at a price of pain and suffering, it isn't worth it.


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## silversheep (Jan 24, 2011)

I am waiting for a phone call within the next few days from the vet to answer some questions about recovery time, etc etc, but as of now, I've tentatively decided not to pursue surgery. Celly doesn't seem to be in pain, and that would certainly not be the case if the vet were to open him up. He still seems happy and comfortable, and I even got him to eat some food. We'll see how things go, and I'll try to get an appointment for a second opinion on Monday. I'll try to update here, and I really appreciate your wishes and thoughts. Thank you! This has been a hard day, but holding my little guy and seeing him acting fine this evening, and even eating a bit has really helped calm me.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

We're all here for you.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

When you talk to doc, also ask about hospice care. For example, some cancers will respond to prednisone. Prednisone can be given in chemo doses which for some cancers it will actually shrink the tumor initially and give a better quality of life for longer. Not all respond, but it is a topic I discuss with doc. It is given orally, and if you get pedi-pred, hedgehogs usually will take it with little fuss. At least those we have used it with have. 

Also discuss nutritional support and for symptoms to be watching for that mean the cancer has invaded organs. For instance, my Rose has mast cell cancer, we have had two mast cell tumors removed and this last time it had invaded the local lymph nodes. Doc has me watching her breathing as the cancer is likely to go to her lungs next.


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## silversheep (Jan 24, 2011)

Update on Marcel!

I made an appointment for a second opinion at a different clinic for Wednesday morning at which they will perform an ultrasound. Why would anyone do exploratory surgery on such a tiny animal when there is a noninvasive technique available? Granted, you can't tell what kind of tumor it is through an ultrasound, but at least if it is extensive or attached to vital organs, we can see that without cutting Marcel open and he wouldn't have to die on the table. 

More updates to come (ie later on Wednesday)


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## megan4032 (Dec 10, 2010)

I understand your problem. My ferret recently went through the same thing.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Ah good, you found someone with an ultrasound. I agree with you, why go through the pain of a surgery when you can do a painless ultrasound and at least get an idea of how big, and what is involved. You'll at least have more information to base your decision on.


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## silversheep (Jan 24, 2011)

*Re: I need your advice about cancer... UPDATE ON MARCEL!*

Update on Marcel!

I took him to another vet for a second opinion. She did an ultrasound which was completely clean. She says what the other vet felt were his little testicles that are small and dense because they're inactive and they have fat encapsulating them. Vet #1 had me feel them and I did think they were oddly centered and symmetrical at the time. And I know for a fact that the three of us are talking about the same thing on Marcel, since I made sure Vet #2 felt what Vet#1 showed me.

Then she did an oral exam (Marcel was in a valium-induced happy place for the duration, but not so much so that he wasn't half-rolled up) and determined that the toof that he chipped about 6 months ago was broken enough to expose the pulp, which got a cavity and got really infected over time and was causing him a lot of pain. So we decided to pull it. She took him in the back and when she came back, she said the when they pulled it, he bled out his nose because the infection was so deep into the root to go through to the nasal cavity, so it was absolutely the right decision to extract. This is the most likely reason he wasn't eating much, and hopefully he'll be back to his normal chow-hound self shortly.

She sent me home with a course of antibiotics, and pain meds and the instruction to swab with kid's listerine (berry, nonalcoholic) to keep the bacteria at bay while he's healing and he should be feeling much better very very soon.

She also said that he still has about another 60g to lose. She wants him around 400.

It was the best $268.03 USD that I've ever spent!

But what really infuriates me about the whole situation is how quick the previous vet was to say cancer and decide that hugely invasive exploratory surgery was the right course of action, especially since the new vet knows for a fact that the first vet's office has an ultrasound. It shows that Vet #1 doesn't care about the animals' quality of life and comfort and just wants another warm body to practice his knife skills on. Oh, and $500 in his pocket doesn't hurt either. I won't be going back there.

To anyone who's interested, I live in Seattle, and I can give you both vets' names if you pm me.

Finally, anyone else feel horribly guilty for not noticing something amiss before it gets out of hand? Because I do.


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## lmg_319 (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm so glad to hear Marcel is doing better and that the 2nd vet found the real problem. One question... You said Marcel has to lose more weight, what are you doing to get the weight off?


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

There are no words that adequately describe my feelings for your first diagnosis. I'll just say WOW. Ultrasounds and a competent vet are truly amazing things.

May Marcel's mouth heal quickly and may he resume eating and his normal hedgehog activities very quickly.


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

WOW!  I'm SO happy for you that it's not cancer!!! And this is definately a lesson I am going to remember for a long time. I'm so glad that you posted this thread! Hopefully this can help to save another future hedgie from an unneccessary, painful surgery.
Yay!


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Wow, that is such marvelous news. It did cross my mind that maybe the vet was feeling his testicles. On some boys it's very obvious what they are, others not so much but geez a vet should know what is what. :lol: 

I hope his mouth heals up quickly. 

Sounds like this second vet is great. Please post her name and info to the vet listings.


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## V2Neal (Dec 27, 2010)

Awesome news! So glad to hear you found a more competent and caring vet and that Marcel will be OK.


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

I can't tell you how happy I am that Marcel will be fine!  it's funny how we don't personally know each other but still we think about other member's hedgies constantly, like they are our friends! Great job taking him to a second vet!


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## silversheep (Jan 24, 2011)

Nancy said:


> geez a vet should know what is what.


Agreed. And I'm furious at his impetuousness and willingness just to accept it as cancer without so much as a second thought (the second thought being confirmation with an ultrasound).

I will certainly add to the vet listings, Nancy. Wait, how do I do that? I got her practice off of the HHC website, so it's already there. Is there a place here to list it?

And IMG_319, I'll lower his fat content and add cooked veggies to his diet. He doesn't really like fruits or veggies, so we'll see how it goes. If he gets hungry enough he'll usually eat what I give him so sometimes it's a waiting game to get him to eat what I want. And while his tooth is healing, I'll be adding some water to make it softer.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

Happy Dance!!! Happy Dance!!! Hap-Hap-Hap-Happy Dance!!!

Please phone Vet #1 when you are ready. He should know what's happened and all you're doing is pointing out the facts, so it's all good.  You may save a future patient's life!!


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## silversheep (Jan 24, 2011)

yeah, I'm so happy, and sooooooo relieved. I absolutely want to have a discussion with Vet #1 and ask him wtf he was thinking! But Vet #2 is sending her findings back to him because he's the "referring" doctor, so I'm curious to see what he has to say. Especially about his carelessness during the oral exam, where after Marcel bit him he said "well his teeth are fine" when it turns out that that was the source of the problem!


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