# Charley's Symptoms - Weakness, Cannot Walk



## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Charley made it through the night!

I don't think we are out of the woods yet, but he seems to have improved ever so slightly and still has plenty of fight in him; he's just as opposed to the syringe as he ever was and protest mightily well for a critter that cannot even stand up.

We went to bed about 2am after one last syringe feeding and a few milliliters of water. About 5:30 I woke up and got him to take a few more milliliters (I have a 1ml syringe, so I'm using it to measure water) of water and about 1.5ml of food. Not so great on the food, but I figure better than nothing at that point. Got up again at 9:00 and repeated the process, reheated his SnuggleSafe, and changed the liners in his travel crate which is where he was overnight to keep him from getting hurt because of his immobility.

His eyes are still bright, and still a little bugged out, though only when he is struggling to get away from me and the evil syringe. So that is probably to be expected. I can see the "whites" of his eyes, i.e. that milky membrane that is usually behind the eyelid and not seen when he is fighting to get away.

His nose is back to being moist, and he seems to have better control of his limbs though he still cannot move completely on his own. He was unable to even turn over last night and I had to help him get around and get settled before he would rest. I still needed to help him this morning but he was almost able to crawl and pivot in my lap using me as a ramp/leverage.

He is more aware of what is going on around him; last night I could pet his face, visor, and touch his tail without him balling up (or trying to, he can get about half way before he seems to get tired and relax). Now he is a little more hissy and puffy though he still cannot ball up, he is giving me a little more of his usual sass.

Elimination is still occurring on a semi-normal schedule and in typical amounts; last night however there was literally neon green in his stool. It was solid, not mucous-like, and was mixed in with normal colored material. That was the only "odd" thing that has happened so far as far as wastes, urine is still occurring in typical amounts and color (a light yellow).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So now the plan is to get as much water and calories into him as I can.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

I've asked my MIL to pick up some Hill's A/D on her way home from the store this morning, my vet okayed it, so I should have some for Charley's next feeding! *dance*


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## TeddysMommy (Apr 24, 2011)

Poor Charley, I hope he gets better! My thoughts and prayers are with you.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Just now Charley was able to eat 9ml of Bene-Bac laced baby food thinned out with bottled water. It was the usual amount of baby food I would typically give him and since I keep bottled water around for myself I opened him his own bottle and measured out 2ml of that. My MIL is on her way home with the Hill's A/D and she told me where to find a 3ml feeding syringe so it was easier on both Charley and I to get this feeding down since I didn't have to poke his poor little gums so much, they have to be getting tender by now from all the syringing.

He really perked up when he smelled the baby food though and that made me smile, but what he did next was enough to make me cry a little from being so happy...

He walked! Not very far, and I had to support him a little, but he motored around on the table in front of me where I had been feeding him enough to take care of his toilet needs. It wore him out, so I tucked him back into his crate with his SnuggleSafe for a few more hours.

There was a pee spot about the size of a half-dollar this time, it seems as though he alternates bigger puddles with smaller ones. Is this okay as long as he is able to urinate every few hours? Color is still normal.

Very little stool this time, and it was (pardon the ickyness) like forest green jello-goo. Honestly it looked very much like his stools did a few weeks ago when he was on the Baytril for his URI; and this makes sense because I started the Baytril last night. Almost normal diameter, just not a whole lot.

I am going to keep making sure he gets water every 2 or 3 hours and food every 3-4 hours; ideally I'd like to get some watered down food into him every 3-4 hours and then maybe and additional syringe of water on top of that just to make sure he stays hydrated. If hedgie bodies are like human bodies in this respect water makes the whole metabolic process run more smoothly and I think he was dangerously close to dehydration when I started emergency feeding/watering because of his nose being dry.

If I'm babbling I apologize, I think I am posting half to keep myself on track and then half to get any thoughts or advice from you all. I have already talked with the vet again after this last feeding and he is optimistic about me being able to keep Charley at home for recovery. Of course if anything changes for the poorer we'll be making a trip to his office.

I'm still worried as all get out, so I'm going to go knock out some chores and the homework I didn't do last night because I refused to let go of Charley until I knew he was going to be alright. Need to go do some work too (I write web site content for extra cash) so I can get some more Booster and Bene-Bac in the mail!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

YES! Glad he's doing well enough to walk a bit!  I'm clapping my hands a bit from excitement. Go Charley go! 

I can't really offer much advice to help out or anything, but don't worry about the babbling. I do the same thing when dealing with anything like this, or really, anything with Lily at all. :lol: Being able to say it out loud or type it all down really helps to keep track of what you're doing and can help you see if you're missing anything.


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

Woohoo Charley! Good boy! Keep it up! 

You're doing so good with him! I'm so glad he's starting to feel a bit better.


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

wewt!


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

Great news


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

I shouted "Woohoo!" when I read that he walked. Mildred huffed at me, but I told her about Charley and she shut right up.  

What a tough little dude! Does your vet have any idea what may have happened?

Fingers and toes crossed that everything progresses well from this point on, and I'm thinking good, healthy, strong thoughts to you both.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

Sorry if I missed something but I would take him to the vet. Like now. If it's a money issue, most vets will take pity and let you make payments. Just my humble opinion.


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

MissC said:


> most vets will take pity and let you make payments


just for the record: not where i live.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2011)

fracturedcircle said:


> MissC said:
> 
> 
> > most vets will take pity and let you make payments
> ...


Indeed I have a wonderful vet that even gives me personal access online to all my pets medical records and visits, but they require payment at the time of the visit due to too many people not paying when payment plans were set up.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

All I'm saying is it sounds like Charley really needs to see a vet. Soon. Some vets DO allow you to pay over time and I wanted to be use this route has been considered.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

I understand that what everyone has said comes from a place of concern. We all want what is best for all of our hedgies and the hedgies we all love.

All I will say is that yes, there is a money aspect involved in why we have not been able to go yet. I have consulted with my vet over the phone regarding Charley's condition, and kept him up to date on what is going on with Charley, getting his advice on how to do everything I can at home for him.

The vet I go to is the most experienced in the area with hedgies, and no, he does not accept payments. I am working my way through the phone book today to see if there are any others in a 50 mile radius with any sort of exotics or small animal experience that would be able to accept payments, but so far none of the ones I have called will do so. Maybe I live in a high hit-and-run on bills area and no one is willing to take the risk on a "new" patient; I have a feeling that some vets might be willing to take the chance on a long-time client, but I don't have the time to cultivate that kind of relationship if Charley is going to get in to see someone this week.

I am doing everything that I can for Charley; I realize that this isn't enough and trust me I feel pretty low about it. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Last night Charley was able to eat on his own without the syringe, he ate his Hills A/D mixed with water and baby food from a spoon I used to stir it with.

This morning he was able to stand for a few seconds and eat from the bowl, and then was able to eat some more while I supported him. We wound up syringing the rest in part so he get it in him and partly because he will not take water on its own without a fight so his ration of water is mixed in with the food for less stress on everyone getting him to take it in.

He is doing well in his travel crate with lots of blankies and his SnuggleSafe to keep him warm and cushioned since he uses the blankets to navigate. He is very active, just very uncoordinated and not quite strong enough to walk around normally.

He has been taking his Baytril twice a day; morning and night. He has a feeding every 2-3 hours, depending on how much he is able to eat at the feeding before; if he is able to eat more I let him rest longer in between, if he eats less either because he is tired out or because he is fighting me too much I still let him rest but we try again sooner. He is averaging 9ml or more of A/D & water mixture per feeding. I mix in Benebac for his day-time feedings and at least one during the night so he has some good bacteria in between Baytril doses.

Elimination is staying regular as far as timing goes, urine is still in a normal amount and color. Stool is still occurring but is a mixture of typical material and the upset system gel-like consistency; overall color is a dark brown and dark green mix. 

~Katie


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

No one doubts how much you care and you're right: any and all comments are made because we care about Charley and YOU! 

Have you looked into those pet credit cards? I think this one is available in the US: http://www.carecredit.com/vetmed.

Besides either borrowing from family, friends and the credit card, I got nuthin' sorry.

If I had the money, I'd gladly pay for Charley's vet bills but sorry...nothing extra around here these days, especially after tomorrow's vet visit.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

I have tried CareCredit; I'm not eligible, likely because of my credit history being short and my revolving account balances being high. I've even tried those cards that come to you pre-approved in the mail with astronomical first-time fees, can't get those either >_< It is extremely frustrating. 

And I've already accepted a gift from a friend to take Charley to the vet this past month for his mites and URI; none of my other friends or family have any spare funds, it's all groceries and bills. 

I have about $100 I can put toward a vet visit, but I doubt that will be enough, so I have to keep plugging away at the listings in the phone book and see if I can get lucky, otherwise it will be another week before I can get another $100 and I don't think that is what would be best for Charley, I need to get him in tomorrow or Monday providing he stays stable; I am going to be making note of which vets in the area offer emergency services and calling them first to see if they take payments in case things take a turn for the worse I will know where to go. I wish my vet here took payments because he was very good with Charley at our last visit.

I appreciate the offer! *hugs* I'm in the same boat, I want to give a little to everyone with a hedgie in need, but I have to save everything I can for my guys. One day... I have 24+ job applications out there so far this week for everything from hotel room cleaning to car washing to any kind of retail or fast food you can name. Something has got to come through soon, I'm able-bodied and willing to work for peanuts!

So cross your fingers and send positive thoughts everyone, both that Charley will stay stable and improve, and that I will be able to find him a vet that will take payments at least this one time. And if you've got some spare positive mojo, see if the universe will pony up and one of my applications will get me an interview ^_^


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

another $100 here if you need it.


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

I hope that you are able to figure something out! We all want to see Charley get better and live to be an old, old man.

Right now, does it feel like he's progressively getting better, or just kind of plateauing?


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

LarryT said:


> another $100 here if you need it.


God bless you, Larry! Always so kind. 

I wish I could help, but I can't. Still, I'm sending you lots and lots of good thoughts. I'm so sorry Charley and you are going through this.

Please keep us updated.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

OMG, you guys/gals have made me cry some very happy tears!

I would like to take you up on your generous offer Larry, and will send you my PayPal email address in just a moment.

*sniffle*

Thank you also to everyone who has spoken to me privately.

I am so very blessed to have the support of such wonderful friends, both in terms of funds and advice & support, which can be just as valuable if not more so.



It seems as though Charley is improving, but it is a fight for every gain; I have been doing well as far as getting him some energy back and keeping him stable and eating/drinking enough, but after this morning's feedings I think he might be staying at super wiggly and eating like a piglet. He still cannot walk even though he tries his darndest.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

Check your paypal account.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

That's wonderful news that he is doing a bit better. Being willing to eat is good. There are so many things that could be the cause of his not being able to walk and hopefully it is something easily cure able.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

For an animal that cannot walk on his own Charley is a wriggly little hedgie. When he was out for his dinner time feeding about an hour ago he ate 10ml and then some of his watered down food and then tried to climb up my chest the way he has always done, and then rested on my shoulder. He seems so full of life, just exhausted.

I am calling first thing tomorrow to get him an appointment, the offices here close between 4 and 5pm so I wasn't able to get one this afternoon but most are open between 8 and noon on Saturday. Hopefully they have something I can get pretty soon!


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Does he move his legs and have strength in them? Do you think his inability to walk is balance related, leg immobility or from exhaustion? Does he try to stand and walk or just wiggle. As someone who has knee issues I can say from my own experience how tiring it is to walk when there is a physical problem. An infection of some sort would make him tired as well. 

Hugs


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

He has strength in his legs, and he tries to walk, he just cannot stand up AND move, one or the other. He seems to fall to one side or the other because the legs on that side give out first; it doesn't seem balance related as though he has a head tilt.

He was also very tired when he was on Baytril previously, so that could be keeping him "down" as well as any other issues that could be going on. Being sick in any way wears anyone out, human or four-legged friend. 

If I hold him up by making a cup with my hands and helping support him he will walk all over the place, he wants to move and can scoot, just not stand.


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## SaltAndExtraPepper (Mar 4, 2011)

I just found the original thread to this, read it, and then read this one. I was saddened and worried but now I am shocked and amazed, and awed. The people of HHC never cease to amaze me with their kindness and generosity. I am so happy for Charley that he has such a dedicated owner that will do so much to keep him fed and hydrated and fight for him to get better.

I am anxious for updates, please know that my thoughts are with you and Charley.


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## Quinn (Apr 24, 2011)

I am anxious to for updates! I have been following along with the threads and I'm really hoping Charley will pull through! I know how tough it is to come up with vet funds and I'm so glad some here were able to help! Please let us know how he doing!


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Things got scary this morning; about 7:30 when I woke up for Charley's feeding and got him out, he had an accident during the night and was covered in feces on his lower stomach... so I lifted him out of his crate and was getting ready to go give him a bath or at least wipe him off with some soap and a wash cloth when he started foaming at the mouth and making gasping motions. In hindsight I'm not sure he was having breathing troubles or if he was trying to annoint with something because his sides were not heaving, and his tongue was out but it could have been annointing...I'll never know.

But when I saw that I called the closest vet with small animal experience and told them I was on my way. I had my husband hold Charley while I threw on some clothes and then we left with my brother and father in law since they were on their way to work and atm we only have 1 running vehicle. They dropped Charley and I off at the vet and I went in fully prepared to have to say goodbye. By this time (8:00ish) Charley was no longer acting as though anything was wrong, aside from his persisting symptoms of weakness and nasty green stools.

The vet was very accomodating; the office was packed but we were still seen immediately by a tech and she kept the doctor posted for about 20 minutes while he freed up a spot so he could take a closer look at Charley. He was up front on his lack of hedgie experience but he was pretty knowledgeable on other small animals so I was confident that he would be able to do the tests at least and help Charley. The vet even went back to his office and called other vets he knew and pulled out several books on exotics; there was only a page or two on hedgies in each but it was nice to know he was trying. He's also said if we want to come back and bring the boys there from now on he will work on finding more information in the mean time.

After the vet was able to come see us, he examined Charley, felt around on his stomach and back, tested to see if he could feel in his legs, and since Charley had provided a sample for us a few minutes ago he went ahead and did a fecal test to see if we could find any bacteria or nasties... turns out no, he didn't see any of the usual harmful bacteria including giardia; the vet mentioned something starting with a "C", but that could have been any of half a dozen common ones, I wasn't paying attention to what he said wasn't the problem at hand >_<

So the next step was to sub-q Charley some fluids; we gave him 20ml to see how he reacted, and did he ever perk up! Now I'm not sure if it was from a combination of hydration and discomfort (his skin swelled up at the injection site, it looked very uncomfortable) or just from feeling better with some fluids in him.

The recommendation we left with was to increase fluid intake (about double what I had been giving) and to keep feeding the same. We also discontinued the Baytril to see if this also improves his energy levels and elimination activity b/c as he put it, Baytril is a big gun and can really wear an animal out. Plus when I told him Charley had already experienced some lethargy and GI upset on it last month and there were no bacteria in the stool sample today either it did its job or there was never any need for it to begin with. The vet agreed that it wasn't a bad idea to give it until we could come in, but to stop now that we're reasonably sure it's not needed.

I will be monitoring Charley over the weekend to see how he does and then returning with him within the next 10 days if possible, hopefully sooner, and see where he stands. Charley is breathing well, and is very alert though he still cannot walk because he is so weak/tired. He tries though! He did manage to turn around on his own, previously I had needed to help him to move in any opposing directions since he can scoot forward on his own. He also ate half of his feeding when we got home from the vet from the bowl I prepped it in, and then ate half of the next feeding the same way. He hates my guts b/c I am syringing him water like it's going out of style (an additional 2ml on top of the 4.5ml that is mixed in with his food) but I'd prefer a cranky hydrated hedgie to the alternative!

I would like to thank everyone for their support and positive thoughts for Charley and I; we are by no means out of the woods, but without your help we might not have even been able to make it this far and knowing how Charley is doing and having been able to take him to see the doctor means so much to me. He is my baby, and seeing him like this is tough, so support in any form is very much appreciated!

I will update on him once a day or so unless there is news, hopefully it is all good!

~Katie


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

It's so great that the vet was up-front about his limited expertise, and was willing to look things up and learn. I wish all vets were like that!

It sounds like Charley is making baby steps toward getting better, which is SO much better than him giving up and progress stopping.

I'm happy that you are keeping us posted on what's happening. Little Charley crosses my mind several times a day, and I always think really good thoughts your way.  Hang in there! I'm sure this is terribly stressful on you, too.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

I think I might be switching to this vet from the one we saw last month; I liked his office manner more and him being willing to go look things up means to me that he might be a better choice; that and this office is 15-20mins away versus the other office being 45-60 minutes away from my house and the office visit was only $5 more at the office we went to today. Closer = better in case of emergencies.

I won't lie, I haven't slept in almost a week because I am that upset over Charley's condition; I manage during the day, but when it gets to night time and I have a chance to brood and think hard about things it is mind-torture. And I have to get a grip on myself b/c Charley will not benefit at all from me being super upset when handling him. I found some nice homeopathic anti-anxiety tablets that have been helping quite a bit to take the edge off and let me get a few hours a night. Me being sick with a cold/flu has not helped either, when I get the ID on the truck that flattened me this week I'll be pressing charges for sure! *grin*


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

*Re: Charley's Symptoms - can boy time upset the stomach?*

:? 
I'm confused...

Charley just came out of his crate and threw up; not much at all, looked like leftovers from his last meal. Then I saw fresh evidence of boy time on his chest, and I wonder if the results of boy time, if ingested, could cause stomach upset?

Or could it be b/c of the increase in fluids? Or just being ill? *sigh* He is resting comfortably now, but I want to make sure this was a one time thing since he already is dehydrated...


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

More thinking on my part; his stomach has been going through so many changes, he might have just gotten sick, I know it happens to me when I start or stop any medication.

He ate very well at his last feeding, got at least 5ml of water and then at least 4-5ml of food with few complaints. If I could get it in his mouth just right it all got in there, but otherwise he lost a little out the corners of his mouth. I think he was just tired, almost too tired to even eat but once he got the taste he was still interested.

While he was out he defecated and urinated (several times for the urination, good size puddles, good color) and I have uploaded a picture of the stool; just a link for those who do not want to see: http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j445/FJ_CS5/Charley August 2011/IMG_6401.jpg

Just looking for opinions on this one, it is an improvement over the looseness bordering on diarrhea this morning and I think it is just the upset from meds and change in feeding habits. He does not strain to produce either urine or stools, and after every 3ml or so of food we take a walking break and I support him while he walks around on the towel in front of me and I give him some time to both build up his strength and do his business. I would say he is taking care of his business at least three times daily in decent amounts; stool is less than I'd like to see, but it is increasing in amount gradually.

What would be a good physical therapy technique to try? I know he will need a little bit of help getting back on his feet, and I want to make sure I'm doing everything I can. I have been flexing his feet, tickling the pads to make sure he can feel it, and extending and retracting his legs to make sure all is still well. If this is good for the basic keeping the muscles semi-active I will continue to do it that way but I am always looking for a way to improve ^_^

The nerves are really kicking in again, I've been worrying lately that I could go to sleep and wake up to find he has passed, probably why I haven't been sleeping much this week. >_<


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Woo-hoo!

Charley was able to eat almost all of his feeding tonight from the bowl, AND he was able to stand/balance on his own for a good 30 seconds!

*does a dance*

Now time for me to sleep, only a few hours till the next feeding.


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

That's great that he was able to eat and seems to be gaining strength


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## Hissy-Fit-Hazel (Jul 15, 2011)

Yaaaay  reading along and hoping the very best for your little guy!


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Another feeding down, and Charley stood to eat again. Not much stool but boy was there ever a ton of urine! Guess that's what happens when we force fluids in him like we did yesterday...

Little guy is still worn out but seems to be picking up strength, stamina, and attitude; I do believe he has licked me in preparation to bite several times. My sassy little man!


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## Quinn (Apr 24, 2011)

Great news!!!! I really feel like he is going to pull through!!! he's a fighter (apparently wanting to fight your fingers lol)


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

:lol: Yes, Charley is a fighter! Little booger has almost no teeth (he does but they are all pretty worn down except for his front fangs, and he's missing one of the top ones of those even) but boy does he bite! He's chomped on my wrist and fingers a few times in his life with me, and I can say for sure that what he lacks in fang he makes up for in determination.

He seems to be getting much of his alertness back, he is no longer lethargic and uncaring of what's going on or who touches him, now he raises his head when I peek into the cage and sniffs the air before curling back and and going back to sleep. He is still exhausted, but I would be too!

His mobility brings me to my next problem, and I'll likely make a separate topic for it after I read some stickies here at HHC, but Charley is fat beyond fat, he is likely obese. With him being relatively limp the past few days I have gotten a good look at is underside and been able to poke and prod and stand him up supporting him with my hands and see his little fat rolls >_< This is completely on me since I control his diet, and he is on a lower fat mix of food (CFCLS Lite, NB Green Pea & Duck, Wellness Indoor) and maybe a teaspoon of Pat's Mix (http://web.me.com/cierrawolf/Site/Thistle_Dew_Hedgehogs.html) daily, so he is not getting a high fat diet by any means, and I have been supplementing the past month with baby food to provide nutrients without all the fat and calories but I think with his feeling poorly these past few weeks he has not been exercising as much and this has stalled his weight loss.

I want to try swimming and more exploring in larger spaces once he is back on his feet in addition to wheeling, but right now he can't really stand up for long much less move on his own so I have to stick with helping him toddle around during these feedings to get a little bit of exercise.

+++++

This last feeding about 9:30-10:30 went very well, he ate most of his food on his own from the dish with me supporting his weight so he could stand. The little bit he left in the bottom of the bowl I mixed with 6ml of water and we syringed that; he seems to take the water better if it has a little bit of the food in it, I guess he just dislikes the taste of water right now? Or perhaps he is too tired after eating to drink in the usual fashion from a dish. I've been offering water in a dish, but so far no interest.

Plenty of urine, not so much stool, BUT what was passed was more normal in consistency and color than previous days so that is progress. Hopefully the Benebac is helping put things to rights in his little GI tract!


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

If he starts to show signs of dehydration, get him another sub-q. If you are comfortable with needles, ask your vet for a bag of lactated ringers, syringes & needles to do them at home. Also ask for the amount to give. If a hedgehog is vomiting, has diarrhea, or just not drinking enough, you sometimes need to give them a sub-q to help support them. The bag of lactated ringers shouldn't cost much. My last bag cost just over $5 US in May and my vet gave me the needles (I had syringes on hand already).

Sub-qs are not hard to do, they just get injected under the skin. If you have never given a shot under the skin, you may want to ask your vet to show you how.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Charley was pretty dehydrated at the vet's office the other day when he received 20ml of fluids via sub-q from the vet.

I'll admit I am not comfortable giving him an injection as I have no idea how, and I would have to ask the vet how to show me; my husband is experienced in giving IV's to humans, horse, and dogs, but admits he's not sure if he could give an injection to Charley or our other boys either. I might have to get the vet to show me how and ask how much the supplies would be to keep them as a part of my emergency kit.

How long did your bag of fluids last (as in, expiration date)?

Since I have started doubling the amount of water he is receiving at each feeding (we're up to 6ml per feeding now) and he receives a feeding every 4 hours, I would say he is getting sufficient fluids for now since I am his sole source of them; he is in his travel crate so he cannot hurt himself moving around on his own, and while it does have the little food and water tray that can hang on the door I have kept it out in case he fell into it while I was not there and either made a mess, hurt himself, or both.

The vet mentioned that 40-60ml daily was a good target range for water for small animals such as rabbits, but was unsure if our APHs had the same requirement because their African ancestry might give them the ability to operate on less water. Charley is getting between 35 and 40ml right now, I am working up slowly to increasing his water intake, but he is urinating frequently and it is a light color, so I believe this indicates for now he is much better in terms of hydration.


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

Alastrina, I agree that light yellow urine is a good thing. In humans and animals alike, dark yellow urine is a very indicative sign of dehydration.

Also, this may or may not help, but I'll share with you anyway.

When I was 15 or so, we had 2 dogs (Annie the springer spaniel, and Jasmine the rott) and they were very good girls. We lived on 15 acres of property, surrounded by woods and corn fields, and allowed them to roam our property once or twice a day instead of tying them out. Once in a very great while, they would be gone for hours at a time, but they both loved the thrill of hunting rabbits and we never worried. They always stuck together and came home at the same time.

One night, Annie and Jasmine were out running, and Jasmine came home... without Annie. It was about 5pm when we realized that Annie was no where in sight, and I was worried. I stayed outside til about 9pm, calling her name, wandering the woods looking for her, etc, with no luck. My mom finally made me go to bed around 11 that night, and she still hadn't come home. The next morning, my mom woke me up to tell me that Annie came home but something was wrong. Annie couldn't walk because her back legs were giving out on her. We took her to the vet, spent $1000 on tests to be told that they didn't know what was wrong with her, and took her home. We did some research online and came to the conclusion that she had Coonhound Paralysis (http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Health- ... lysis.aspx)

A week went by - all 4 of Annie's legs were paralyzed and she had no control over her bowels or bladder. We took her back to the vet, told them what we had learned about Coonhound Paralysis, and the vet gave us an information sheet on PT and showed us how to do Range of Motion exercises for her since most dogs recover fully from this condition.

For Range of Motion, we did what you've been doing - flexing the feet, moving her legs in a "walking motion", etc. I'm sure if you look up ROM exercises on dogs on youtube, you'd get a good idea of what you should be doing for Charley.

As a nursing assistant working with the physically disabled, I know the importance of keeping muscles worked while in recovery, even if it's passive and someone else has to perform the ROM for you. Muscle atrophy occurs frighteningly fast.

That's what I know through my own experience. Helping Charley exercise probably won't hurt him any, and IMHO, it will help him regain use of his muscles faster when he has gotten well enough to walk on his own. I hope this helps.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Poor Annie! That sounds scary, for you (her humans) and and Annie herself; to go out for a run and not be able to walk home...

Charley is recovering well but I think I am going to need to work with him more so that he does not get hurt because he is all over the place and would not hold still during this last feeding (good thing!) and I'm worried he'll twist or turn something the wrong way since he is still not coordinated at all. As far as I can see all limbs are functioning normally; his front paws look a little swollen, but he does not act as though it is uncomfortable when I lightly pinch them and manipulate his legs and feet.

I am about to question the powers that be though, Charley has mites! Again! >_<
Pet food direct has a great price on a 3pack of Revolution, and the vets office said they price match, so I'm calling them Monday to see if they will sell me a box for the PFD price ($36!). If not I'll just get one tube for now but it'd be a shame b/c they want $20 per tube for the "open box" fee on top of what it's actually worth ($15ish a tube).

He has always lost a fair amount of quills, but today they kept falling out in unusual places, and sure enough there are the angry red spots indicating an infection, and after I brushed over the spots with my finger quills fell out and there came the infection out of the follicle where the quill used to be. UGH. I'm frustrated, poor baby cannot catch a break!


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Now I'm worried as all get out; and perhaps I should note that this is a nightly occurrence of late. Charley seems to decline every night; lethargic, spaced-out and not noticing much until I touch his forehead for example. He was still interested in eating and ate a good third of his food a few hours ago, and I mixed the rest with 6ml of water and syringed it to him. He was almost too tired to even swallow and I'm pretty sure at least .5ml leaked out of the corners of his mouth.

I gave him a foot bath to get the urine and little bit of feces off of his hind end and dried him off before putting him in his crate and letting him crawl inside the hedgie sock I bought from Nikki where he is now resting. I've managed to only peek in on him once in the past few hours, I know he needs rest but at the same time I'm worried sick.

I don't care when I have to get up or what I have to do but he is getting that Revolution tomorrow and getting his first dose tomorrow afternoon. Can he have one dose a week for the mites? And by one dose I mean 2-3 drops, so I could get 3 doses from the one tube I'll get tomorrow. 

I'm hoping he is just worn out from all of his progress today with standing and eating and even walking a little. I am beside myself thinking that every time I hold him could be the last time, and I have a hard time letting him go to sleep in his crate. I keep the crate beside my bed on my nightstand at night and keep a flashlight beside it to check on him if I hear any noise that doesn't sound normal. 

I've done everything I can think to; feeding, vet checkup, and as much positive energy as I can put out. He has my favorite piece of quartz crystal next to his crate and the snowflake obsidian and amber/citrine, and every prayer I can muster. 

But if I want to not fail this term in school and make the money I'll need to build my emergency fund and get him the things he will need if he makes it like a heating pad for his cage or a CHE, I'm still trying to decide if I need one or both. I ordered new Benebac powder (mine expires this month) and a new bottle of Booster because I am about out. 

Annnd I'll stop babbling now. Thanks for letting me rant a little. :|


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Are you absolutely certain he has mites? Unless you are certain, I don't think using Revolution or any mite treatment is a good idea. Revolution is processed through the liver and unless you know his liver is in good condition you don't want to do something that might stress it. Often when our little ones are sick and not eating normally, they start to get a bit of FLD. Without doing blood work, you wouldn't know if he does or doesn't but because of his recent issues, assume he does.

I suggest you talk with your vet before using Revolution on him because you don't want to make him worse. 

Are you using a heat source for him right now or is it hot there? Often when they are sick wrapping a heating pad on low under his bed will help. 

Sending prayers and hugs.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

No, I'm not 100% sure; he has the classic symptoms of dry skin, quill loss, and the angry red pustules that he has gotten the past two times he had mites.

With his symptoms of general lethargy not improving with increased nutrition and hydration, the mites, and last night/early morning feedings both having him sound wheezy (like we do when our noses are stuffed/drippy) I'm going to take him back in as soon as I can get an appointment as this is not good when it all comes together. 

*sigh*


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

Sigh. I'm so sorry Alastrina...Charley just can't get a break.  

My first thought to Revolution was noooooooo for the same reasons Nancy mentioned: one more drug/thing for his body to worry about. But that was my knee-jerk reaction, knowing nothing as I do...or don't... :? 

Having said this, have you tried SF/Booster? They're not drugs and I would think either would be gentle and beneficial, especially the Boost, as it is for animals with weakened immune systems. And sorry if I have asked that same question 2000 times before and forgotten the answer...there seem to be a lot of folks with skin/quill issues lately.

One of the long-timers (as opposed to old-timers  ) would know better than me.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Yup, Booster is on the menu at our house for everyone since it is essentially the same as Sunshine Factor with a little extra so it won't hurt an of the boys to have some. Normally I give it every other day in some baby food, but with Charley being sick he's been getting one dose a day of .4ml mixed in with his feedings. I am completely out as of yesterday and put in an order for a new bottle as well as some new Benebac since my current bottle of powder expires this month. So the new bottle of Booster should be here in a week or so, it's being shipped USPS Priority mail.

Looking back at something Nancy posted in one of my topics about Charley a few weeks ago, I think Charley might have pneumonia; the only thing I'm confused on is whether or not the bacteria would be present in his stool or not if he did have it? The vet did not find anything in the fecal he took Saturday, BUT that was jelly stool, not a typical sample, so could that have had an impact on the effectiveness of the test?

But Charley is having thin clear discharge from his nose for a few hours now and blowing little snot bubbles when he swallows. He pretty much refused his last feeding so I might have gotten 2ml of food and water into him combined and the rest all over both of us. Through this whole thing he has always been eager to eat, so this worries me. He sounds congested too, the way I do actually b/c I have a pretty bad cold/sinus infection myself.

I can't give him my cold can I? I mean I wash my hands after using a tissue and probably every few hours no matter what but thinking about that just now makes me wonder if I gave this to him and his system was too weak to kick it out.


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

You must get well my little Charlie; I love you.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

*Update on Charley - 8/8/2011*

Charley Update:

I am going to be stepping up the next few feedings to make sure he is getting enough fluids and food; I've gotten him to take 3ml of pedialite so far since I've been home and just about to do food.

I did a phone consultation with the vet because I was not able to go today; we have only one running vehicle between 5 adults and my brother and father in law were working so they had it until after 5pm. Luckily the vet was able to give me essentially what we would accomplish at an office visit minus any tests and I am picking up Clavamox and Revolution tomorrow while we are out taking my in-laws to their doctor's appointments. It's not ideal and I dislike it extremely but I am doing the best I can with the resources I have. Ashley suggested a cab, but I am so far out of town it would cost $50 or more to take one round trip, and that's just the companies I've called.

Depending on how he responds once on Clavamox and with increased fluids via syringe we will either be making an appointment for the end of this week or the first of next week for status checkup; see if he needs any tests to fine tune treatment or if he is recovering well to make sure there are no other problems that could affect his recovery. It all depends on how he responds to the anti-biotic in a milder form and if he will start eating and drinking again like he was.

:|

I am in a sour mood I suppose, about 2 hours of sleep will do that to a person. *wry grin* I don't know who was more tired this morning at 5:30am, me or Charley. He's a trooper though so I will be too!


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