# Still very worried about Sophie's weight / growth?



## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

At 12 weeks, Sophie's metabolism shifted and I was fine with that. Food dropped from about 18 grams to 12 grams, but her rate of growth leveled significantly. Cool.

But she's had a second shift, and it continues to worry me to no end. After peaking at 330 grams at 15 weeks, she has lost weight in five of the last six weeks; -40 grams total, at a time when it seems to me she should still be posting modest increases.

Her foods are Solid Gold and Innova. She has never shown any signs of not liking them just fine. She was pounding them down in her big growth weeks. She has been on Solid Gold since 7 weeks, and she took to Innova very well after I had to drop Chicken Soup on account of the recall. No sign of any issue from the switch.

I was originally weighing her food every day, but consumption has dropped so low that I am also logging kibble count. Total kibble consumption since I have added count to the log.: 23 pieces last night, 23, 19, 24, 21, 16, 18, 9, 26, 38, 35, 33, 35, 42, 42, 37, 47, 41, 28, 41, 19, 23, 34, 38, 45, 46, 52, 51, 46, 42

Water consumption is down from an average of 12 teaspoons to barely 7 teaspoons.

I ordered her some medium mealies from Sunshine and have been giving 5 per day for the last several days. (She loves, loves, loves mealies. She'll take a finger off if you don't let go fast enough.) I don't know if she should get more or not. I think that that is on the high-normal side of what people seem to give.

Almost no interest in any other treats, even after being offered on a regular basis so that she can 'get used to them'. Today, I bought a jar of Gerber Chicken and Gravy Second Stage. No interest. I have only ever given treats 'personally', not just put them in her cage, feeling that treats should come from me. Tonight I made an exception and put out a special container with one measured teaspoon of the Gerber. When checking in on her (temperature and such), I saw that she had eaten every speck of the Gerber. Didn't look like she'd eaten much of anything with her regular food, but it is 'early' in her night yet. I reloaded the treat dish with a measured tablespoon. If she eats that later on, I don't know how she'll take the new offering, and a soft food at that, but she needs to eat and I am at a loss.

Her behavior is generally excellent. She naps with me every afternoon, is doing great with foot baths and nail clippings - generally excellent behavior.

What to do? What to do? Barely more than 1/8 ounce of food in a night is starting to scare me.
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weigh-ins (Monday afternoons, post-poop.)

21 weeks: 290 grams (10.23 ounces) (-18) (-6%)
20 weeks: 308 grams (10.86 ounces) (-4) (-1.25%)
19 weeks: 312 grams (11.01 ounces) (-10) (-3.25%)
18 weeks: 322 grams (11.36 ounces) (+6) (+2%)
17 weeks: 316 grams (11.15 ounces) (-4) (-1.25%)
16 weeks: 320 grams (11.29 ounces) (-10) (-3.25%)
15 weeks: 330 grams (11.64 ounces) (+4) (+1.25%)
14 weeks: 326 grams (11.50 ounces) (+8) (+2.5%)
13 weeks: 318 grams (11.22 ounces) (+4) (+1.25%)
12 weeks: 314 grams (11.08 ounces) (+12) (+4%) (Night weigh-in. Oops.)
11 weeks: 302 grams (10.65 ounces) (+26) +(9.5%)
10 weeks: 276 grams (9.74 ounces) (+34) (+14%)
9 weeks: 242 grams (8.54 ounces) (+22) (+10%)
8 weeks: 220 grams (7.76 ounces) (+38) (+21%)
7 weeks: 182 grams (6.42 ounces) (+36) (+24.75%) (8 days. Missed the weigh-in.)
6 weeks: 146 grams (5.15 ounces)


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

The actual number of kibbles sound relatively normal. My boy averages about 30 kibbles, and I feed him 60 nightly. Some hedgies eat more, and some eat less.
Is she a wheeler? What type of body does she have? Is she teardropped with a nice round bum, or twinkie on stilts? It's possible that she may need something a little higher in fat for her kibbles. What are the fat percentages now? If you are using a low fat version, try the regular adult version. Most of those are usually around 18% fat and see how she does. If her weight continues to decline, try adding kitten food. 

Is her urine any different colour? Different odour? You can try switching white fleece, or just line the entire cage with paper towel instead for a night to check her pee colour. If it's not overly dark amber yellow, and it doesn't have a strong smell, the water intake should be ok.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm far from an expert, but I agree, she should still be growing at this age, not losing weight. What is the fat percentages for her two foods? If I remember right, I think Solid Gold is around 12%, right? Is she a really big runner, that you've noticed? She might need a higher fat percentage in her food to help her keep her weight on and continue growing. I can see why you're concerned about eating less food too though...Has anything changed recently, that you can think of? New bag of food, something new in the house, change in the temperature or light schedule? Or have you had the food that you've been giving her out for awhile? Is there any chance that it's stale at all?

For mealies, I think 5 is still within the average amount, really. You could probably increase the number by a couple, and maybe spread them out a bit more across the day to avoid impaction issues. (For instance, if you check on her in the mornings, you could give her a couple then, give her a couple if you say hi to her or get her out for cuddles at all during the day, give some more during the evening and before bed, etc.)

That's good that she's interested in the baby food, at least! To me, that points to more of an issue (if there is one) with either the kibble, or perhaps a mouth issue that's keeping her from wanting to crunch up hard kibble. If she still isn't eating as much kibble, you could try giving another bowl with some kibble softened with water and see if she's interested in that at all.

It could simply be, though, that her appetite is starting to decrease naturally as she gets older, and there's just not enough fat/calories in her current foods to keep weight on (especially if she's a runner). Since the rest of her behavior seems normal, it might just be that. I'm sure you'll get some more answers/opinions soon, from people with more experience than me.


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

To the first two responses:

1. She wheels an average of three full hours a night. The trend seems to be an increase. (More nights closer to four hours and less nights closer to two hours. I do keep a log.)

2. Yes, I think her shape is good: big, round butt and tapering to her snout. No 'sunken sides'.

3. Solid Gold Katz-N-Flocken (Lamb) All Life Stages Cat Food (34%P / 12%F)
Innova Low Fat Adult Cat Food (32%P / 8% - 10%F)
Foods are fresh and within expiration. Especially the Innova, which replaced the recalled Chicken Soup. Main bags fully sealed with plastic wrap and stored. I keep a 'feeding' supply in separate bags.

4. Poop and pee look good. There isn't a lot to look at, but she usually goes shortly after I wake her in the afternoon. Poop is soft, like a gel, and darkish. Pee is yellowish, but not strongly so. No unusual consistency or odor.

5. No changes that I can think of. No big changes to her cage or her routine. I get her up from about 4pm - 6pm. She doesn't 'play', just wants to go back to sleep. If I take a nap, she'll run up in my shirt and sleep with me. If I'm working, she'll sleep on my shoulder or in her hedgie sack on my desk. I have cut down getting her out at night. She really prefers to be let be. I'm allowed to observe in low light from a discrete distance while she runs around.

6. Last night, after kind of accidentally finding out that she would eat the baby food if I put it her cage to eat in her own good time - I reloaded with a full tablespoon after seeing that she ate the teaspoon. During the night, she did eat the entire tablespoon (4 teaspoons total). Consumption of her regular food was 5 pieces of Innova and 7 pieces of Solid Gold. She drank 23 ml of water (4.7 teaspoons). When her water consumption dropped also, I got a graduated cylinder (like a lab measure). That was the only way I could figure to get accurate readings.

7. How 'complete' are the baby foods in terms of nutrient needs? Is it a good idea to continue? That is, she obviously liked it, but then only ate 12 total pieces of kibble - half of recent consumption. I'm not sure that that is a good trade.?

8. Can I 'coat' her kibble with flax or olive oil to add fat? Would there be a risk of giving her way too much fat that way?


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2012)

is it possible shes eating less kibble because of the extra mealies and baby food?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

If her shape is good, that definitely seems like a good sign. It does sound like she could just be making the shift from eating a TON as a baby, and now slowing down more as she gets older. Like Immortalia said (I missed her post last night), that's around the number of kibble that Lily typically ate, before she started having problems.

For the losing weight though, if that continues and you start getting more worried about it, I would try adding a higher fat food, or switching one of them for a bit higher fat and see if that stables her out. Flaxseed oil on her food wouldn't really hurt, but if you did it too often (enough for the extra fat to really help, I would think), it might cause looser stools.

With baby food, that's actually what I ended up doing - changing Lily's diet to include baby food every night, along with her bugs and kibble. She loved it, and seemed to do well with it. She also ate less kibble when she got baby food, but her weight stayed fine (before her other problems started), so I figured she was still getting plenty to eat. I figured as well, as long as she was eating some kibble, she was still getting the vitamins/nutrients included in that that might not be in whichever baby foods she was getting that night. If you're concerned about enough nutrients, you could try mixing several baby foods and see if she'll still eat it. I ended up mixing two jars of meat baby food (same meat) to 2-4 kinds of veggie baby food, and one or two fruit baby foods, then freezing the mix into ice cubes. I usually ended up doing two different mixes, one with chicken and one with turkey, and different fruits/veggies in each. Then I alternated the two mixes, every other night.


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

Lilyhogs - No. This reduced consumption and weight loss has been going on for weeks now. I had gotten her mealies early on. When we ran out, I didn't replace them because I wanted to test other treats for during our 'together time'. Bananas, sweet potato baby food, and such. I offered them regularly, but never got anywhere with any of them. She would take a few nibbles of banana, but basically no interest in treats. I did not offer them in her cage at night, because I kind of want her to associate treats directly with me.

The plunge in food consumption and the drop in weight has been going on for several weeks now. That's why I ordered a 500 count container of mealies. I was sure that she'd take right to them as treats and she has. Slurps up all five as quick as I can get my finger out of the way.

I haven't tried baby food in a good while. Got tired of throwing jars away. I just picked up a jar on a whim yesterday because I just don't know what to do. She had no interest at all, like before. However, for the first time, I decided to set her up with a special dish and put it in her cage, looking at it not as treat, but as an effort to help her nutrition. (Perhaps she would always have been receptive to these kinds of treats if offered 'in the privacy of her own home in the dark of night'.?)

She ate every bit, but at a cost of eating even less kibble - by half again! So now I'm even more lost as to what is best.?

I think that I'll add another 4 mealies tonight. That would be 5 in the afternoon, and 4 sometime at night; 9 total. Maybe another 4 teaspoons of baby food in her cage and her usual availability of her 'real' food.

I'm leery of deciding to add oil to her food as a nutritional supplement, because how to know how much is enough to help? How to know how much is temporarily helpful, but ultimately unhealthy?

I have good logs. It only takes a few minutes a day. I'd be happy to just get her leveled off. These are growing, formative weeks, even if only a percent her and there.

It's not the 40 gram loss that bothers me most, but my concern that she can't keep going this direction. Her good behavior has been very helpful with my patiently watching and not trying to just 'change things'. It does feel like the time has come to at least try to get her leveled off, that I need to do 'something'.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Your easiest course of action now is to switch the low fat innova to the regular adult. That will add in some extra fat without going kitteny overboard lol

You can start feeling a capsule of flax oil once a week. And eventually go to every 2-3 days. I wouldn't feed more than that just because like Kelsey said, poops can get loose and oily. 

You can also slowly increase the number of mealies. Just keep an eye on her poop for undigested chitin. 

As of right now, since everything else seems normal, she probably just has a higher metabolism. So switching to higher fat kibbles should be good. Now I'm not sure on the kibble size and shape anymore, but halo spots stew always had smaller kibble sizes as well, if you think she might like a smaller sized kibble as well. The fat is usually around 16-18.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

I have given a couple of drops of salmon oil daily for extended periods of time before (think years), without the hedgehog having a problem. Worse I've seen in the short-term from giving too much oil is loose/green stools. You will likely see this anyway due to the diet change that is happening.

If you find she will consistently eat the baby food for you, then I would get a look at her teeth. She may have something bothering her that makes eating a lot hurt.

If that doesn't pan out, I'd try a different variety of food, RC Baby cat for instance, to try to stabilize her weight.

Also depending on how long you have had the KNF it could still be starting to not taste right. If she is a particularly picky hedgehog she may decide she doesn't like it, or the other food in the bowl if it isn't up to her standards anymore. I've had it happen. You could try to put two bowls of food, separating her kibble to see if she is doing something similar. 

Have you tried any canned cat foods?


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## Chels (Apr 28, 2012)

I have a question as to why they are being fed baby food? I'm no expert at all, I just got my first hedgeie actually. I was wondering if I should feed her some or do you only feed them baby food if they are losing weight? Or is it just a snack?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Chels said:


> I have a question as to why they are being fed baby food? I'm no expert at all, I just got my first hedgeie actually. I was wondering if I should feed her some or do you only feed them baby food if they are losing weight? Or is it just a snack?


Baby food can be any number of things. It can be just a treat, as a change from the usual. The veggie ones (if the hedgie will eat them) can possibly help them lose weight by filling them up a bit so they eat less kibble, but don't go hungry. And some people include it as a regular part of the diet, like I used to. It's just an easy way to offer different fruits/veggies and give more variety in the diet.


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## HedgieGirl519 (Oct 21, 2011)

Chels said:


> I have a question as to why they are being fed baby food? I'm no expert at all, I just got my first hedgeie actually. I was wondering if I should feed her some or do you only feed them baby food if they are losing weight? Or is it just a snack?


A few reasons I can think of off the top of my head to give baby food are:
-To loose weight
-Tooth loss
-Snack/Treat
-Sick
-Poop problems (Pumpkin and sweet potato can help out)

You can feed baby food if you'd like, but right now there is probably no reason for you to, other than just a treat


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## Chels (Apr 28, 2012)

Oh okay, cool. Thanks for the replies  I might try it out as a snack.


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

Sophie's weight held exactly even last week; still 290 grams at 22 weeks. Thing is, she was 302 grams at 11 weeks.

I now have her on 10 mealies a day. She is getting 2 tablespoons of Gerber's Chicken and Chicken Gravy 2nd Foods, which she eats every bite of first. Zero interest in a tablespoon of sweet potatoes; that she'll step in and just track around the cage. If that continues, I will switch to offering Gerber's peas. The problem is, though she's loving the Gerber's Chicken, it is coming at the expense of her 'real food', not 'in addition to' as intended. She has only been eating about a dozen pieces of kibble, yet another big drop.

Behavior is still excellent. She is still putting three hours a night on the wheel. Or more - she set a new record this week at 5 hours, 3 minutes.

I'm thinking about giving her kibble a quick dunk in olive oil. I know that too much fat is a bad thing, but is that something to worry about with a hedgie that isn't keeping weight on, much less continuing to grow? Or should I try to switch in a high fat kibble? Recommendations for the latter if that is a better choice?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I would try adding in or switching to a higher fat kibble. She honestly sounds to me like she's just slowing down on eating, but needs more calories since she's running so much. The regular cat/kitten version of Innova might work, with 20% fat. The others are a bit higher in protein, so you may not want to use them. Kitten foods for most of the good quality foods would also have higher fat. You could also give Royal Canin Babycat a try, but I would be cautious before trying that one, since most hedgehogs seem to think it's candy - if it ends up being too high in fat and you need to wean her back off, she might throw a fit. :lol:


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

How would the Royal Canin be if it were 'rationed' into the mix, say a dozen pieces? Then free feed the other? She could always eat it first, but have to move on. Or do you think that she might try to hold out for that?

(She has always eaten by preference: choice one first, choice two second . . . so I've always had to ration her first choice (Purina ONE when she came home from the breeder. Then Chicken Soup before the recall. Then Innova before her big drop in eating.)


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Rationing it into the mix sounds like a good idea! The pieces are very small, so it might be easier to try measuring instead of counting. I'm petsitting a hog right now that's fed mostly Babycat (he's a tiny boy, and a runner), and I've been weighing his kibble to keep track of how much he's eating. If she's used to eating in order of preference, it sounds like she'd be used to being rationed on the favorite, so I don't think she'd have problems with only getting a small amount of Babycat. But I don't have too much experience with that specifically (Lily didn't like Babycat, my little weirdo :lol: , and didn't usually pick foods out of her mix), so someone else might have different advice on that.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

You can try baby cat, or you can get a regular formula of one of the other foods you already feed. For example, I normally feed Fromm Mature Gold, right now I'm using Fromm Duck a la Veg. All of my hedgehogs love it and pick it out first. It is a high fat/calorie food. For my little runners, they need it to maintain weight. For Tylda... well she likes it so she gets a couple of pieces mixed in with her low cal stuff. Yeh I'm a sucker for the sad eyes.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Kalandra said:


> You can try baby cat, or you can get a regular formula of one of the other foods you already feed. For example, I normally feed Fromm Mature Gold, right now I'm using Fromm Duck a la Veg. All of my hedgehogs love it and pick it out first. It is a high fat/calorie food. For my little runners, they need it to maintain weight. For Tylda... well she likes it so she gets a couple of pieces mixed in with her low cal stuff. Yeh I'm a sucker for the sad eyes.


 :lol: Gotta cater to the diva!


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

You know it! She will nose through her food bowl and if she doesn't find any in her bowl, she sits and stares at me. Its really quite sad. I don't like the "You don't love me anymore" eyes.


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

I got the Royal Canin Babycat 34 (34%P min. - 24%F min.). I live in a small town; one pet store, so thought I might have to go to The Big City to get one of the choices.

The girl that pretty much runs the store is one of the most knowledgeable people I've come across in any business. She knows her products and is one of those few people you encounter that you just know will be exceptional at anything they do.

She thought that "EVO Turkey & Chicken Formula Dry Cat & Kitten Food (50%P - 22.5%F)" might be a good choice for the situation. I don't pretend to understand it, but evidently there is some evidence that high protein diets contribute to longevity in cats. It was interesting, but everything I've seen on hedgehogs calls for ~30% -- ~35%, and now is no time to be experimenting with Sophie.
..............................................................

I see what you mean about the size of the Royal Canin. I'd hate to think that she will eat so little that I would have to count it. The Solid Gold and Innova are much larger pieces.

Actually, I had been measuring her kibble by weight, but when consumption dropped so low, I also went to a count because she is literally eating so little (especially after adding the Gerber's that she decided to love) that count is more accurate than weight.

I'll make final decisions of what to feed and how much this afternoon and will see how she does.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

How is Sophie doing? Has she tried the Babycat yet? 

Evo is probably one of the best dry cat foods out there for cats, but that's mainly because of such a high protein, and the fact that they're obligate carnivores. I always tried to recommend it to cat owners when I was working at my pet store, but it was hard because probably 90% of our customers bought the crappy cat foods (Friskies, Whiskas, Fancy Feast, etc.) and weren't remotely inclined to change. :? I agree though, I'd be a bit leery on experimenting with Sophie right now, and while there doesn't seem to be problems with a higher protein unless the hedgie already has renal problems, 50% seems pretty high to be experimenting with.


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

Lilysmommy - 

I won't have the first read on how her weight is being affected for a couple of days yet. I don't want to be obsessive and collect daily weight data (unless that were called for). It is the trend that I am looking at. (And I tend to look plenty closely already. Ha!)

She took to the Babycat immediately. I was pretty generous on the ration, because I want to encourage her to eat it. I have continued with 10 mealies per day. I retained the Gerber's (or Beechnut) meat offerings with the baby food (chicken or turkey), but reduced the offering from two tablespoons to one tablespoon. She continues to eat this first and entirely, which is why I dropped the amount. I want to make sure that she's got room in her belly for the kibble. For that reason, I dropped the baby food veggie offerings, none of which have yet made a big impression anyway, so it was just easier to remove from the equation.

I put out 6 grams of Babycat and 2 grams each of Solid Gold and Innova. After she polishes off the baby food, she goes for the Babycat. She is eating not quite (but pretty close to) every bit of it, and only eating from 0 to 2 pieces of each of the other kibbles.

So far I feel pretty good about what the next weigh-in is likely to show. Six grams of kibble is actually a measurable increase in kibble consumption from what she was down to, and with nearly twice the fat content I am certainly hoping to see weight gain. This will be her fifth night with the Babycat, so I'm a couple days from taking data.

If all goes well, then I'll have to see what the weight gain looks like in a few weeks and begin thinking about how to make adjustments. She loves the baby food so much (and the quality should be excellent), that I'd like to bump her back up to two tablespoons. The volume could affect how much kibble she will eat, though.

I also have to look at the kibble rations; maybe knock the Babycat from 6 grams to 4 grams after she gets back on track with weight. I suspect that she will continue to mostly refuse the Solid Gold and Innova if she has 'had her fill' with baby food and Babycat. As has always been the case, she eats by preference and will only move from one choice to another after eating it all. Thankfully, she has decided to love the Babycat so I am getting the extra fat into her with no problem these first few days, which is the priority. Down the road I may have to deal with working out quantities to have her eating at least some of two kibbles.

She's picky in that there are some things she just won't eat, but mostly she's picky in being very deliberate in moving from one choice to another. Working out rations has worked so far, so am hoping that when the time comes, that that will continue to be a successful ploy.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

That's great that she likes the Babycat so much!  Sounds like the amount she's eating is good - the boy I'm currently petsitting is eating around 4-6 grams of Babycat a night, and his weight stays pretty stable. I know all hedgies are different, but he sounds a bit similar to her, at least activity wise. He has Natural Balance as a second food in his mix, but he doesn't eat it often, he definitely prefers the Babycat too. I hope Sophie girl starts getting back on track with her weight now!


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

If it comes down to it, purely to ensure she has variety, perhaps you should offer just the babycat in the bowl, then completely crush the other two and sprinkle generously into the baby food. She probably won't even notice it much.


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

I would definitely have to crush it finely. She's pretty wily, and she'd probably catch me.

I tried putting complete pieces into the baby food when she used that as an excuse to basically stop eating kibble. I thought that the taste of the baby food and the softening of the kibble would be a good thing.

She never ate one single piece of kibble from the baby food. She would eat all of the baby food from around it - and then eat a couple grams of kibble; from the kibble dish only of course.


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