# Housing hedgehogs in groups



## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

After hearing horrific stories of hedgehogs kept in groups (exclusively in English APH forums, I might add), I decided to gain a little more information on the subject. I asked in German groups, since they are the most experienced keepers when it comes to co-housing hedgehogs.

I asked the following questions:
Do you house your hedgehogs in groups?
How many individuals of which genre are housed together and how big is their enclosure?

How long have you been keeping them in groups?

How often did the hedgehogs refuse to live in groups and had to be kept separately?

Did it ever happen that groups that had been living in harmony for a longer period of time suddenly started quarrelling?

Did it ever happen that one hedgehog hurt the other?

Do you think that housing hedgehogs together is in a way an enrichment to their lives, although they descend from being solitary?


I think I'll post the answers I got so far separately.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply #1

I house my hedgehogs together.

My girls roam together and also live in a group of ten. Two terrariums [the size was not given, but I think she owns pretty large ones, 3 m in length or so] are provided so that they are able to withdraw themselves when they want to. Hedgehogs that are still lying in their play pen in the morning are evenly distributed to their enclosures. All of my girls know each other and they get along well. I have been co-housing them for five years.

It is different with my boys. I have got a group of three and a group of two at the moment. I used to keep a group of five that got along well, but now it's those groups that work. I have also had to keep some solitary, because the did not like living in groups. We just try. That's how I have been handling it from the beginning. The boys live in separate terrariums of 2 m x 0,6 m [roughly 6,5 x 2 ft] and have a separate play-pen.

I have never heard of groups that suddenly stopped getting along. I rather observed them becoming a community.

Injuries only ever happened between males - and in this case, you need to separate them asap.

I think co-housing is an enrichment for female hedgehogs. None of mine wants to be alone, they never withdraw from their companions.
I don't think that males care about it. They are also happy living in solitary.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply #2

I have been co-housing my hedgehogs for eight years and I am really positive about it. Thanks to overbreeding and 30 years of domestication there is not much left of their ancestors solitary lives, I think.

I have never had any problems regarding co-housed females, and there were times when I had groups of 18. On the opposite, I have kept girls that stopped eating and exercising as soon as they were separated.

It is a little different when it comes to males. There are consistently ones that don't like to co-house with anyone. From my experience [she has lots], I'd guess 1 in 10. Often you know it in advance when you have known their father. Then there sometimes are individuals that get mobbed and don't know how to properly defend themselves . At the moment I have seven male hedgehogs of which one lives solitary. This the way it usually is like. Some hedgehogs just don't get along well with certain types of characters, I have also had times when I had to keep two separate groups.

There have been injuries, but those have never been severe and are not worth mentioning. That one hedgehogs would kill another is something I would believe when it comes to my _Hemiechinus_, but not with APH. [AFAIK, she keeps tenrecs, APH and long-eared hedgehogs]

Sometimes spring time causes minor quarrelling when their hormone levels rise, then you should separate the quarrelling one for some hours. Male hedgehos also need some time to cool down after they have been allowed to mate before they can be put back inside their usual homes.

When it comes to the American guide lines one should not forget about their different style of maintenance. When it comes to male co-housing enough space is the most important aspect. Mine have got 24/7 access to their play pens and roomy terrariums, sufficient amounts of food as well. Often they are housed in small cages in the U.S., hence stress is inevitable. They must be able to be alone when they want to. But this is true in general, no matter which sort of pet you are talking of.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply #3

I think domesticated animals lose a part of their natural behaviour, e.g. their defensive behaviour. After all, they are supposed to live together with rather deadly predators (human beings). This causes the aggressive behaviour towards individuals of the same species to change. Additionally, many species develop territorial behaviour in order to be able to find enough food. In co-housing there is a lack of these natural behaviours which leads animals that are actually solitary to be able to live together. It might also be possible that behaviours of hedgehogs that are native to our environment are being projected onto this new species - which would be wrong. I think everything is alright as long as our pets get along well, it's hard to say whether they need this or not.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply #4

My three girls definetely love living together. They are provided with three terrariums which are connected via kitty doors. Every morning I find them cuddling in a different place. First inside the house, then behind their potty, then anywhere else.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply #5

Well, we got the our little 'hogs in the beginning of September. The two are sisters. They live together inside a 120 x 60 cm [4 x 2 ft] terrarium with 24 h access to their play-pen which has roughly 12 m² [130 ft²]. Until now there hasn't been any quarrelling, on the opposite, they cuddle a lot and sleep together.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply #6

We also co-house our hedgehogs. The females display conspicuous behaviour when separated. For example does the separated female try to climb her enclosure's walls and shows signs of nervosity. I don't think that offered space plays any important role when it comes to that. When in groups they almost always sleep together, although there are lots of other houses available.

Our males are also housed together and there is no strain whatsoever. Even the boys like sleeping together sometimes, but it might also happen that one starts hissing as soon as another one comes passing by in the wrong moment.

We provide whole rooms for each group.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply #7

Two males in a terrarium of 150 x 60 cm [5 x 2 ft], two levels, 5 m² [54 ft²] play-pen.

They have been living together for half a year, now. Sam was used to living in solitary, but thanks to Dagon he has become calmer und doesn't curl up into a hissing ball of angst anymore, which he used to be when kept solitarily. 
I once found tiny scratches on one of them, but I don't know whether it was caused by the other or by their enclosure's interior. There had been genital injuries twice when one of them tried to mate with the other one. Their own making... they have two houses but like to sleep together.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply #8

At mine there live two female 'hogs. They are sisters and there have never been any problems. They live together inside a 120 x 60 cm terrarium [4 x 2 ft] with additional level and 24-h-access to their play-pen which is 5 m² [54 ft²]. They love to sleep cuddled together under any of their shelters and they often go and explore new toys together.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply # 9

I have been keeping hedgehogs in groups for ten years now and during that time there has been only one hedgehog that just did not want to share his enclosure with anyone. This individual ended up living in solitary. I actually believe that there are those kinds of severe cases in America because of their maintenance. It depends on whether the hedgehogs have enough room for themselves and don't feel cornered. Then it will work that six hedgehogs live together in a terrarium of 240 x 60 cm [8 x 2 ft] and still sleep together in a house that was meant to hold no more than two and feel well doing so.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Reply #10

My four girls live together on four levels of which all of them are 150 x 60 cm [5 x 2 ft], no quarrelling or anything, I have never had any problems. At least for my Daisy it is definetely an enrichment. When she was temporarily living solitary she became really hissy. Since all of them have been reunited she forgot how to use her spines.

Unfortunately it was quite different in regard to my boys... they have been co-housed for three to four months - there had never been anything - and suddenly both of them were injured... both of them live on their own now.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Okay, those were all the replies I got. I translated them as best I could and deliberately kept out all their names and data.

It is not my goal to convince anyone of you of anything. I just decided to collect some data for myself to see whether there had been risks I never knew of - and I thought that it might be interesting to see another perspective for some of you. Please don't feel offended or bad about anything.

Please also consider that those replies where posted into German forums and that the consensus is quite different there. Sometimes American maintenance is spoken of in a bad way. Keep in mind that there are many diverging opinions between the American and the German way.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

This is so interesting!! 
I think there is a hidden goldmine of information in reply #2 I believe. It was mentioned that you can tell a lot by the fathers personality in regards to males being housed together. 
We had briefly discussed this as being something that was possibly being bred into them. 
That being said, I had a female that I believe enjoyed being with another female. She would make escape attempts, disrupt her cage and be grumpier when she was alone. If she had a cage mate she was a totally different hedgehog. I did have a bit more stress on my part as I had to be on my toes watching for squabbles. I use human females as an example. Think of a college sorority. They can be best friend until one gets on another's nerves and they are at each other's throats.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Kudos to you for translating all those answers, you got quite a few replies!

Okay, lets set some things straight first. APH are not domesticated. A few years of captive breeding (not 30 years, but less than 25) does not make a species domesticated. They haven't been altered in appearance or behaviour, there's only been an addition of a few colours/patterns (many of the colours already existed within the wild population), most noticeably pinto; a pattern which tends to be the first to show up in captive bred species. 
A few things we see in domesticated species are changes in appearance: minor at first but if we go further we get different breeds. The APH is still exactly the same - for now, at least. Who knows what they'll look like in a hundred years.
Behavioural changes: those can't be really seen in the pet APH either. They are at best semi-domesticated. 
While some breeders have been selecting for character, this hasn't been done very strictly (like the extreme example of the captive fox breeding programme in Russia) and the influence isn't visible on the species as a whole. The interaction between humans -- hedgehogs is very similar, or sometimes even better, with wild hedgehogs; behaviour still seems to benefit mostly from good socialisation. So far, breeding doesn't have any noticeable influence on character/nature of the species in general (yet). Most hedgehogs still need to be "tamed" even though they're born in captivity. Even then, they tend to bond with just the people they know, sometimes even only one person. Which isn't strange considering they haven't been bred for long and aren't what you'd call the best 'pet material' (defensive prey animals, and, yes, solitary).
In fact attempting to domesticate the hedgehog isn't a very logical choice at all, and it might take longer than with a more social species. Most domesticated species are social animals, because they are more likely to actively seek out human interaction or have the natural need to form a pack/look for a leader, which gives us an advantage. Noticeable exceptions are cats and ferrets but the very nature of these animals (in the wild) is very different from that of the hedgehog. 
Domesticated cats and ferrets tend to be more social towards others; even feral domestic cats sometimes gather in groups where food's available, while wild cats avoid interaction. But even after many ages (!) of breeding those two species they still aren't truly social. While they can be kept together they aren't herd or pack animals like horses and dogs. The nature of the animal has been altered to some point, but the core is still the same.

Hamsters have been bred in captivity since the 1930s but they will fight till death when you try to house them together (most species, not all). All those years of breeding, including them being lab animals, hasn't changed this. 
'Solitary' doesn't mean 'territorial' or 'aggressive'. There are many species which are solitary but not territorial, although males in mating season are often more aggressive. The hedgehog is one of them. This has been noticed in all species we know of atm, so unless something new gets discovered, they show a solitary nature. In the wild, they live alone. They only come together to mate then leave again. But sometimes their territories overlap and if there's a feeding station, multiple hedgehogs can eat from it without fighting (there might be some quarrelling, but there's no extreme territorial drift). I've seen encounters in the wild outside of mating season and not next to a food source, and the hedgehogs just huffed and puffed a little, then ignored each other and went their own way again.

So we know hedgehogs are solitary. They do not _need _company. Can they be kept together? Yes, if enough space and food is provided, they will tolerate each other, especially females who are less likely to fight. Will they enjoy it? I personally think they do not care much for it, but as with many solitary species which are not very territorial, they will accept the company and share each others warmth (I don't really believe in them "cuddling" out of affection). I've seen Germans who are pro-co-housing say their hedgehogs benefit from it, but most people I know who house their hedgehogs together (but don't think they absolutely need to) say they don't see much of a difference. There might be hedgehogs who really get attached to each other but the changes in behaviour that are mentioned don't have to be related to them being kept together. If you suddenly put a hedgehog in a different cage/environment it can display the behaviour mentioned, whether it was living alone or not. Some hedgehogs won't eat after they've changed cages or owner. 
If your hedgehog is displaying nervous behaviour after being separated even after a while, it might be a sign you don't have enough enrichment in its cage (like a wheel, other toys, etc). Being together keeps them occupied - not necessarily in a positive way, but they have a distraction. It could be seen as a form of 'cage enrichment', although in a good habitat, it shouldn't be needed.

You already know I prefer the German way over the American way when it comes to housing and feeding, except for co-housing. I'm not against it but I'm not such a big fan of it either. While I could see myself housing two hedgehogs together I would never go as far as to keep big groups.
If you co-house, you have to keep in mind it's not natural and it's born out of the ease of having more hedgehogs within less space (one of the reasons it's mostly done by breeders, also breeders in the US as well btw! I know several who co-house their females) and you are forcing the animals to interact and live together while this goes against their nature. In Germany however for some breeders this has turned into the 'right' way of keeping hedgehogs and a few won't even sell a single female, they only sell them in pairs (it's an easy way of selling hedgehogs if you do it like that though...)

Many Germans think they have big cages, bigger than those in the US, but this isn't necessarily true. Except for some who provide free roam rooms, but that doesn't seem to be that common from what I've read in German FB groups. I'm surprised that many of the ones you've questioned do have them, but a lot of them seem to be breeders with multiple hedgehogs. From what I've seen, the majority of Germans seems to house 2 hedgehogs in a 120 x 60 cm cage. 
While I've seen small tub cages the majority of the people in the US seems to keep their hedgehogs in C&C cages, and if they use tubs, they often connect at least two. In these cages most of them only keep one hedgehog. This means this hedgehog has actually quite often more room (per animal) than in a German enclosure. 
I saw someone mention keeping 18 hedgehogs. If you would keep them solitary you would need, let's say, 18 times 100 x 50 cm (at minimum) cages. But by housing them together (unless the person truly added the same amount of space per hedgehog, which I highly doubt) you have less space but are able to keep more hedgehogs.

I mean



> I actually believe that there are those kinds of severe cases in America because of their maintenance. It depends on whether the hedgehogs have enough room for themselves and don't feel cornered. Then it will work that six hedgehogs live together in a terrarium of 240 x 60 cm [8 x 2 ft]


makes very little sense to me; while the enclosure itself is indeed quite big, it isn't anymore if you put 6 hedgehogs in there. If kept alone, this would mean each hedgehog would have a cage of 40 x 10 cm. These animals have the opposite of a roomy enclosure!
Of course Americans wouldn't try to squish eight hedgehogs in a 100 x 50 cage. In fact, I believe the severe cases are mostly the same ones repeated over and over again, just like things like 'wood shavings are bad because they cause mites'. I keep seeing the exact same cases of hedgehogs fighting repeated on this forum and on FB. These are only a handful while there are thousands of hedgehogs in the US. I believe that there aren't more problems in the US with co-housing hedgehogs, it's just that less people do it and there are more 'horror stories' doing the rounds.

The Germans can try to keep their hedgehogs as natural as possible (which is great imo, to some extent), but in the end co-housing is an unnatural way of keeping hedgehogs. Does that make it bad? I don't believe so. We keep these animals in captivity and make changes to their lives. For some co-housing works, and if the hedgehogs are healthy and happy, I don't see a reason to change it.

I do think co-housing, or play time together, can make hedgehogs calmer. Because they are constantly bothered by another hedgehog which just doesn't go away (it can't since it's kept in a cage) they have two options: fight or learn to live with it. This is something I've noticed in my females during play time as well. Most hedgehogs seem to go for the last option, since they are in general not very aggressive animals. Just like we keep bothering them to tame them, a companion or play mate could help with this process. This is one of the reasons why play time (for females) is sometimes advised by people in the US as well.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

I wonder what the cause of the difference is. Naturally people will say their way is better. Who really wants to say they are knowingly doing things sub-par? There is pros and cons on each side when looked at as a whole. 
The main difference I see is European owners get the opportunity to see wild hedgehogs, not aph but still hedgehogs. I wonder if this has any influence in establishing what is right vs wrong.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you for mentioning the (minor) changes caused by domestication in other species. There were some facts I did not know. 

All in all, I am completely d'accord with what you've said. Keeping them together is not very natural, that is something already clear to everyone. But what I get from these experiences is that quarrelling is not a common thing and that co-housed hedgehogs are not in danger.

You are wrong on this one, though:


Draenog said:


> From what I've seen, the majority of Germans seems to house 2 hedgehogs in a 120 x 60 cm cage.


I know I have said so before, but please don't mind the repetition. Everyone who keeps two hedgehogs in this kind of minimum sized terrarium [it is the German minimum size] without allowing them full-time access to a big play-pen is instantly critizised by everyone nearby. It used to be different some years back, but nowadays you just cannot without having to defend your maintenance. Also hedgehogs that are kept inside of cages are commonly "rescued" and put into more appropriate enclosures.
I don't know about those who are not active members on forums or groups, but then again, neither are you, I guess.

Also, I see an error in reasoning concerning this calculation:


Draenog said:


> If kept alone, this would mean each hedgehog would have a cage of 40 x 10 cm. These animals have the opposite of a roomy enclosure!


Of course, if you simply divide the area, you get those small pieces, but in reality they still got way more room to roam, because not every hedgehog occupies 40 x 10 cm at all times and they can easily pass one another.

I have to admit that requiring females to live in pairs (at least) which is really commonly done (especially regarding famous and beloved breeders) might be seen as a strategic way to increase profits. But without being naive, I truely believe that this is not the main reason behind this requirement, those people are highly convinced of this way of maintenance and they love their pets. And most newbies gratefully obey, since getting two little girls sounds nice to some, others go get a male hedgehog instead.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

twobytwopets said:


> This is so interesting!!
> I think there is a hidden goldmine of information in reply #2 I believe. It was mentioned that you can tell a lot by the fathers personality in regards to males being housed together.
> We had briefly discussed this as being something that was possibly being bred into them.
> That being said, I had a female that I believe enjoyed being with another female. She would make escape attempts, disrupt her cage and be grumpier when she was alone. If she had a cage mate she was a totally different hedgehog. I did have a bit more stress on my part as I had to be on my toes watching for squabbles. I use human females as an example. Think of a college sorority. They can be best friend until one gets on another's nerves and they are at each other's throats.


I won't say too much (it would make my anonymisation from earlier quite useless), but the person you are referring to is one of the "inventors" of the German hedgehog maintenance. She has several rooms that are only used to provide lots of room for play-pens and terrariums and she is one of the main providers of hedgehog-care-information.
I don't know whether there are characteristic differences in behaviour between APH that were bred here and those bred at yours (never met one :lol, but I kind of feel this might not be true. Draenog tends to overwhelm others with a flood of facts and I can hardly argue against those.

But exactly this kind of thinking (that one has to be on a constant look-out for them not to change the way they treat each other) is non-existent here. Everyone keeps girls together, noone believes in a possible risk therein.


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## Skadi (Nov 10, 2014)

twobytwopets said:


> I wonder what the cause of the difference is. Naturally people will say their way is better. Who really wants to say they are knowingly doing things sub-par? There is pros and cons on each side when looked at as a whole.
> The main difference I see is European owners get the opportunity to see wild hedgehogs, not aph but still hedgehogs. I wonder if this has any influence in establishing what is right vs wrong.


Might be. Many of the APH owners are also organising private little care-centers for European hedgehogs that are in need of help. I don't know what came first, though, the interest in APH or the caring for their European relatives.

For those who don't care for Europeans (like me) I have to say that the last time I saw a (living) European hedgehog in the wild was when I was a child (8 years old or so). They sometimes hide or hibernate in backyards, but usually are quite good at not being seen.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

European hedgehogs are very good at hiding indeed, the only times I see them (not counting when I worked as a volunteer at a rescue centre) is when I bike home at night or in our garden in summer. 
And then there's of course the roadkill... at certain times of the year quite a lot of them get killed by cars, unfortunately. 



> I know I have said so before, but please don't mind the repetition. Everyone who keeps two hedgehogs in this kind of minimum sized terrarium [it is the German minimum size] without allowing them full-time access to a big play-pen is instantly critizised by everyone nearby. It used to be different some years back, but nowadays you just cannot without having to defend your maintenance. Also hedgehogs that are kept inside of cages are commonly "rescued" and put into more appropriate enclosures.
> I don't know about those who are not active members on forums or groups, but then again, neither are you, I guess.


My information might be a bit outdated, I haven't been very active in German FB groups lately (I didn't like the atmosphere so I don't read much anymore and unfollowed them so they don't show up in my feed) but the 120 x 60 cm for two hedgehogs seemed more of the rule rather than the exception. Maybe it changed, my bad!



> Of course, if you simply divide the area, you get those small pieces, but in reality they still got way more room to roam, because not every hedgehog occupies 40 x 10 cm at all times and they can easily pass one another.


Yes, which is why I mentioned 'per animal' rather than overall space. I'd prefer a big cage with six hedgehogs over six tiny enclosures, definitely! But what I'm trying to say is how some Germans seem to have a warped view of how 'small' American enclosures are, and at the same time they don't seem to see how co-housing means the animals actually get less space per hedgehog, which makes the argument of small cages in the US > more fights rather useless. 
On German groups I've seen the tub cages mentioned quite often but a lot of people don't seem to know about the C&C cages, which tend to be more common (at least from what I've seen on this forum and FB) and which are quite big, most at least.

I don't think breeders sell two hedgehogs so they can make more money, it was just a joke, but I find only selling two (female) hedgehogs not a good idea at all. It limits people in their possibilities and own choices. After all, hedgehogs do not need company. 
It makes it seem like these breeders do not acknowledge that keeping hedgehogs together is unnatural. I'm fine with co-housing and going all natural habitat-wise (I can only encourage it!) but do not pretend co-housing is a natural way, and more importantly, don't force others to follow. 
Although I guess every breeder is in its right to have their own rules of course! I've seen a lot of strange requests from breeders (all over the planet). A friend of mine was looking for a cat, a rehome, you should've seen some of the weird things breeders came up with... and these were animals they were getting rid of b/c they were too old/not fit for breeding anymore. Very strange. You can advise people the best you can, but sold = sold.

In the end, everyone just wants what's best for their animals.

From what I've read on this forum and in American FB groups many of the more experienced owners don't think housing females will always cause fights, but it's simply not recommended. I've mostly seen people warn others to be careful in case something happens, but a lot seem to have good experiences with housing females together or at least do not view it as something "bad". However, solitary is still preferred over co-housing.

If you're interested in domestication I recommend looking up the Russian fox experiment I've mentioned. There are videos on YT as well. Very interesting, perhaps not very ethical (but it was done for the fur industry, go figure...). They've changed both behaviour and appearance of the animals, and I'm not just talking about colour. It's like fast-forward domestication by very strict selections and breeding the extremes (something which is impossible in the regular pet community). The fox seems to be, for the reasons I've mentioned earlier, an ideal animal to domesticate which might have helped but the results are astounding.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

BTW, while I've never kept hedgehogs together, I've let mine (same sex) "play" outside of their cages. It's always been very underwhelming. They did not care about each other at all. Not even slightly. At best they were just annoyed :lol:


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

The way I look at it is of the ability to breed a attribute, characteristic or trait into a line you would breed animals that have that quality to each other. For as many generations as you can. It's the same with basically all animals.
With this their goal may be to produce a social hedgehog. I can see the appeal. But I see the downfalls as well. If that was in fact their goal, they are going about it in a logical fashion. Even if it isn't the most logistical.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

A good breeder will breed for character first, together with health. Only after that come other things (like appearance, desirable colours etc). Unfortunately not all breeders do this (even if they did there probably wouldn't be enough hedgehogs for the demand esp in the US where they're more popular), and with the hedgehog being such a new species in captivity, there's still a long way to go. The more breeders select for only the calmest, most social characters, the faster it'll go. When it comes to these kind of things keeping animals that are being used in labs or for the food/fur/etc industry often gives an advantage. Arguably not the most ethical way, but faster.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

The big dilemma comes into play when there is only one female in the litter. If their ethics are they must be kept in pairs, they would have a hard time selling that female. In theory they'd pair her with another breeders line female or only sell to someone who owns one already.
If they don't find a way to sell her where she'd have a 'friend' and still sell her, then one could seriously question the breeders driving force of their beliefs.

One thing this thread got me thinking about today was has hedgehog care in Europe evolved and progressed over time, or has it remained fairly much in the same place.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

I've seen people selling females either in pairs or only to people who already own one, or are going to buy another in the future (of course you'd have to believe them on their word).

Hedgehog care is different all over Europe. UK has different ways than Germany for example. So do other countries. Many countries where hedgehogs are less popular are influenced by either the countries next to them or the ones they speak the language of. After all, these countries are often the places where they get their hedgehogs if they're not common in their own. In some countries it's illegal to keep APH or the laws are very strict, making it nearly impossible to keep them.


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