# How the **** did this happen?



## heavenlyhogs

I need some adivise please..I just heard this minute by email that one of my hoglets owners has discovered and confirmed the hoglet has ringworm.
Myself and none of my other animals have this as far as i'm aware but i have been told the symptoms are not always apparent and that i should take some of my hedgies to the vet to check them out.
How the **** would they have contracted this if they have?my hygeine is spot on i use a dilute solution of bleach weekly to wash the cages and accessories ect,i was told my persian cat may be a carrier with no outward signs.I feel absolutely awful about this and am very worried for my animals.As i have said me and my children had had no signs of the illness at all.
I feel as a breeder it is my responsibility to get to the bottom of this and take care of owners veterinary fees should the illness have originated from here for what ever reason.I had infected eczema not so long ago could the animals have picked up ringworm from this from me?
I have decided however that NO hoglet will leave my premises in future without a full veterinary check.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

First of all.....how long has the hoglet been AWAY from YOUR house?

Ringworm is viral, and can be picked up anywhere from anyone at anytime. Do a quick GOOGLE search, b/c if I'm not mistaken it has a 7 - 10 day incubation time, and then symptoms show up. It's quite common with school aged kids. Does the new family have school aged kids? Ringworm is also contageous. So anyone that has handle the hedgie, would also need to keep an eye out for symptoms.

Personally, I've never heard or read about a case of ringworm in hedgies. 
But then again, GOOGLE is a great place to start looking.


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## heavenlyhogs

The hoglet in paticular was homed over a month ago and as i have said i have checked all my pets from nose to tail aswell as the children and have found nothing.
Yes the people who homed the boy have a school going grand daughter and 2 dogs.
I will seek advise from my vet but would like to know everyones opinions on what they would do in this situation.If the responsibility of the vet fees lies with me the breeder?


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## heavenlyhogs

*Re: How did this happen?*

He was rehomed just over a month ago


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## Nancy

Yes there have been cases of ringworm in AP hedgehogs but it isn't that common. Usually it is difficult to tell for a while too because of the quills. How did they discover it? Not all ringworm glows and if it didn't they would have had to do skin scrapings which to do that there would have had to have been obvious symptoms. Unless you are going to do a full vet check with skin scrappings and blood work, you are not possibly going to catch everything. 

Ringworm is contagious and can be airborne but my daughter works in a pet store and on occasion they have gotten guinea pigs in with ringworm but it has never passed to anything else. It is VERY common in guinea pigs so if you have guinea pigs or have been in contact with gp's, its a good chance that's where it came from. 

Most importantly, DO NOT use tea tree or anything containing tea tree on the hedgehog. It is toxic and can cause renal failure in our guys. Tea tree is commonly used on the European hedgehogs as a treatment for ringworm with seemingly no ill effects but it will kill our guys.


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## bryan

Given that ringworm has an incubation period of between 4 and 14 days depending on the species of ringworm involved the chances it came from your herd after a little over a month is doubtful. Ringworm is highly contagious and can be transmitted by a wide number of sources, including the family dogs and school-age children. It happens. It is not due necessarily to poor hygiene or poor husbandry practices. If you have nothing in your own herd to indicate the presence of ringworm, I would be cautiously optimistic. Keep a vigilant watch for any signs of infection, but treatment without cause is not the answer, either.

Bryan


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## heavenlyhogs

Thanks to everyone that posted with advise.I shall be monitoring the situation very closely.
I have been up almost a straight 24 hrs with worry but will do my best to get some sleep tonight.
Thanks again


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## heavenlyhogs

Nancy said:


> How did they discover it?


The lady herself contracted ringworm and took the hoglet to the vet who says he was more than likely born with it??????????????????
It took a few days to confirm but it was confirmed under woods method lighting.


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## Nancy

If the baby had been born with it, the whole litter and mom would have shown major symptoms long before now. Can they even be born with it? I'm betting baby would have to contract it from mom. 

It if fluoresced on that baby, if your's have it, they will fluoresce too so try using a black light and see if they glow. If one baby contracted it at your place, then I'm sure more would have it.


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## Ian And Julie

Hi all,
My wife Julie and I are the owners of the young male hoglet who now has confirmed Ringworm.

*Firstly let me clear up a point. We are in no way trying to lay blame for this on the breeder.*
It's happened that's all there is to it, we need to cure Leo and my wife as soon as we can and move on. We merely informed the breeder so she could have her breeding herd checked just in case. We have asked for no vets fees or treatment costs to be reimbursed at all. I take it as responsible pet owners we all want to learn more about our pets and their parasites. Well chaps this is learning.

We purchased Leo 4 weeks ago. For the first 3 or 4 days we didn't handle him, allowing him to settle into his new home and surroundings. My wife then started handling him and he loved to nuzzle his way under her blouse and go to sleep on her left shoulder. Two weeks later she began to get a severe itch there, a day later a red ring developed about the size of a 10 pence piece. I urged her to go to the doctor and after her second visit he confirmed Ringworm. She is now undergoing a lengthy treatment with Terbinafine Hydrocloride cream to rid herself of the fungal infection. Apparently there is no quick and easy fix for this infection.

We then looked around for a vet who knew African Pygmy hedgehogs and found one in Liverpool who specialised in Exotics. He first looked at my wife's symptoms then gloved up and examined Leo in a darkened room under UV light. He said any signs of the fungal infection would basically glow or fluress green. His ears, the back of his head and his back were all covered. The only true way to 100% identify it would be to take a skin scrape but this is not possible in a young hog. But he said with 99% certainty due to my wife's condition that his diagnosis is correct.

He also took a stool sample to send away for further examination to check for any internal parasites. We are still awaiting the results.

To look at him he is perfectly fit and well, he shows no visible signs or symptoms of the fungus, although he is always scratching, but we put this down to the fact that he may have started quilling. If my wife had not caught it we would not suspect anything was wrong with the little happy chap.

Now to put the timeframe into perspective as some posters on here have said we have had him far to long and the infection must have come from my daughter as she is of school age.
The problem began to show itself approx 14 days after we began handling him. It took a further week or so before Ringworm was confirmed in my wife and Leo, bringing us up to the 4 weeks since he came home.

The treatment for Leo is Itrafungol an oral solution. We have to syringe feed him with this every day for a week, then a week off then a week of treatment again for 5 consecutive weeks.

We had spent a small fortune on a beautiful house for him and a tunnel and loads of toys to keep him amused and interested. All these as they are natural fibres need to be burned. He is now in a horrible plastic igloo with paper on his cage floor so we can disinfect it daily until he is cured. The carpets and rugs in our house where he has walked need to be sprayed weekly with a fungicide. We can only handle him until he is cured with surgical gloves which then need to be destroyed. A dilute bleach wash we have been told will do nothing to the fungus it needs a correct fungicidal wash in our case F10SC which is a specialist veterinary disinfectant used to kill the most resistant viruses, fungi, yeasts and bacteria such as PBFD and Parvovirus.

Having found out how serious and contagious this problem is we feel it's our duty to pass on our experiences, and not to lay any blame.

To clear another point up The vet said he most likely was born with it, what he meant to say was he most likly caught it at birth.

If anyone wishes to contact us re this matter or to see a photograph of the infection please feel free to email us at [email protected]. 
Julie & Ian


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## heavenlyhogs

Thanks iain & Julie glad you made it here,now people have a bit more information on the circumstances they can post their comments and views.


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## heavenlyhogs

Thanks Iain and julies.
Would like to point out Leo himself has NO VISIBLE signs of ringworm and many fungus's that can glow under the light are not all ringworm.
Views please?


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## heavenlyhogs

A couple of things that strike me as strange is that one of my hoglets from the same litter had a skin scrape a 4 weeks old to check for literally everything,would such an infection not be spotted?
Also NONE of my hedgies to now have shown any signs of the infection and from what i understand from ringworm once it has a host it is activated?
The symptoms julie shows are visible and more advanced than leos?is that an indication that she may have had it first?possibly from her dogs?
It's clear i need to have my animals tested and treated but could be this infection was brought into rather than left my home.It might be useful to identify the species .
I'm no expert here but seems to me too many things just don't add up.


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## Nancy

I know of a case of ringworm that definitely came from the hedgehog and it showed up on the person long before there was anything visible on the hedgehog. If I remember correctly it took a couple of months and even then, all the hedgehog showed was dry skin and itchiness. Interestingly, in this case, the ringworm was severe on the wife but nothing on the husband who handled the hedgehog equally as much.

Heavenly, why did you have a skin scrape done on a 4 week old baby unless there were signs of a problem? A skin scrape is not something to randomly subject a baby to without good reason. Unless they looked specifically for ringworm on the skin scrape, it wouldn't show up. 

You may never know where the ringworm came from or which household it started in but the fact that one baby needed a skin scrape at 4 weeks makes me suspect that possibly that baby was showing symptoms that weren't picked up at that time.


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## heavenlyhogs

The baby had a skin infection which he was given antibiotics for,he was the only one in the litter effected.
thanks for your input nancy.


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## heavenlyhogs

Must also point out i have a dog and 2 cats as well as 1 school going child.


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## Nancy

heavenlyhogs said:


> The baby had a skin infection which he was given antibiotics for,he was the only one in the litter effected.
> thanks for your input nancy.


Ah, Was it staph? I've had two litters with one baby with staph and they were the only one in the litter with it. My vet said it was because on occasion one baby will have a lower immune system than the others so they get it and the others don't.

I was just reading about ringworm http://www.ringworm.com.au/ It says cats are the prime source of it. Odd, I've always heard it was guinea pigs.


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## heavenlyhogs

Yes nancy i believe it was as the vet said he had a lower immune system also.I posted here about it not so long ago and queried the vets temperature recommendations for the babies.
Iain and julie were telling me that Persian cats(which i have)are a major carrier of the infection.
If this is indeed the case i need to find a solution.


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## heavenlyhogs

The cats are wormed regularly using drontal but i don't recall if it covers ringworm.
My cat is 7 and i've never expirienced this problem before.My persian is also a longhaired which are more prone to the problem re occuring.


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## heavenlyhogs

I'm really hoping that this wouldn't end in me having to rehome my cat "Bear",we've had him so long now.But i will do anything to ensure the health of my hogs and if that's what it would take then so be it.I need to discuss preventative methods first with my vet due to such a high risk of reinfection.


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## heavenlyhogs

Also i realise how distressing this has been for iain and julie and the hogs and wouldn't want a repeat.But it will break my heart to rehome and the childrens


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## HedgeMom

Well, I have rather extensive experience with both hedgehogs and ringworm. But not together. I also have chinchillas, which are quite prone to fungus/ringworm and I can categorically state:

IT'S NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL, PEOPLE!

There. 

Ringworm is a plant infection, a lot like yeast. Not a worm, so a wormer isn't helpful. 

It's opportunistic, mostly affecting younger children and older adults. Ringworm cannot take root on healthy, clean, intact skin. It requires the skin to be degraded or broken in order to infect. 

Five years ago I took in 24 rescue chinchillas. Several had fungus and I began treating them with a Gentian Violet mixture sold as BluKote. It's extremely effective in treating mild cases of ringworm. 

The chins began clearing up but it pretty much took it's time spreading through the rescues because they'd all come from the same place. So I was treating it for weeks. That was in September and October. Just for the record, I'm an experienced hedgehog owner and rescuer and I practice very strict quarantine and sanitation practices. 

During the two months, ringworm never spread to my own chins or any of my other animals. At the time I had hedgehogs, rats, a short tailed oppossum, a couple of hamsters and a family. 

Late October after holding my hedgehogs I noticed a rash on my right wrist. It's not unusual for me to show a reaction to a hedgehog so I washed it and forgot about it. Several days later it took on that distinctive circular shape and I knew I'd gotten ringworm. I treated it with some Lamisil OTC cream and went on with life. 

It spread. To my face, my eyes, my chest, my arm, my leg. Eventually requiring multiple trips to a dermatologist, multiple oral and topical treatments and quite a bit of time. I still had scarring at my daughter's wedding that January. 

The hedgehog did not have ringworm and did not give it to me. According to my dermatologist and my vet, I had the spores on my skin. Holding the hedgehog provided the break in the skin that allowed the fungus to take root. The spots where I got it? All places my hedgehog broke the skin (except my cheeks and eyelids, those are often irritated b/c I have a sensitive complexion). I held the animal on my right forearm and she walked on my chest and settled down for a nap in my clevage. Not one hedgehog, rat, hamster or STO showed any sign of ringworm ever. 

Anyway, the point of this long, drawn out story is that there is a significant chance that the ringworm spores were already there and the hedgehog just provided the medium for it to make it through the skin barrier. 

Just for reference, many things glow under a Wood's lamp. Semen, saliva, high protein urine, urine with blood in it. Saliva with blood in it. Scabies and mites. Several of those things would be perfectly normal on a hedgehog's skin. 

In fact, a Wood's Lamp in the hands of someone who is not referring to the dichotomous key that comes with the lamp, is a pretty useless tool. 

As far as the cats go, if you've never had a case of ringworm, don't jump to the conclusion that it's the cats. It may not have anything to do with the hedgehog. Cats can be asymptomatic carriers but until you get a case of ringworm from them, I'd relax. Oh, and about rehoming, who is going to want an animal with ringworm? At least if they do ever cause a case to happen, you'll know what to do and why it's happening. 

It happens. Spontaneous cases happen all the time. Ringworm is a relative of atheletes foot and toenail fungus. There is always fungus among us (sorry, bad pun) so relax, take care of business and move on. It's harmless and no one will get hurt.


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## Ian And Julie

Shell

Again this seems to be getting out of hand, WE ARE NOT LOOKING TO LAY BLAME ON ANYONE.
We as a curtesy informed you as the breeder that your stock may be carrying ringworm NOTHING MORE.
It may not be the hogs that are carying it, it may be one of the 8 rats or the dogs, cats, gliders snakes, spiders or anything else in that one dining room.
You are now saying that you had to have a skin scrape done on a 4 week old tiny baby, what were his symptoms, could he have been wrongly diagnosed?
You also say you use worm tablets regulaly and this should kill them IF YOURS ARE INFECTED. Ringworm is a fungal infection NOT A WORM.

As for the statement that if you have it WE possibly gave it to you. IM SPEECHLESS SHELL.

Ian


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## Ian And Julie

Shell

If I'm not mistaken wen we collected Leo you said this was your first litter of Hoglets.
There were 3 in the litter, one females and two males. You said the males were the most relaxed, and affectionate. But you asked us to have the female. Ouestion now is, IS OUR LEO the MALE baby that you said is the runt and the vet said would be more suseptible with a lower imune system.

Ian


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## Reaper

Most fungal/yeast type infections are opportunistic. So a few of the little criminals is no big deal and your bodies police force can round them up and keep them from committing crimes. But when the OPPORTUNITY arises the criminals call all of their friends to come over and start a crime spree that overwhelms your bodies police force and makes you or an animal sick. So where the infection first came from such as "Did I give this to my hedgie?" or fumigating your house may not be necessary at all. We all have what is known as "normal flora" this is the normal bacteria, fungus, yeast, and virus that can be found on your body in very small amounts all of the time. In small amounts the bodies police force deals with these things and you are never even aware. So where the ringworm fungus came from may be you, the ground, food, other pets, anywhere. I personally am prone to fungal and yeast infections. I don't worry where it came from but I know that as a diabetic if my sugar levels are high the fungus and yeasts have a party. So your best bet would be to treat the animal or animals infected and to keep a sharp eye out for any new outbreaks. Darkness and moisture are where these little criminals like to live so keeping things dry is very important. The darkness can't be avoided. So keep any type of substrate or liners, food toys etc. dry and clean up pee and poop as soon as possible to keep infections minimized. Poop is full of all kinds of pathogens so as soon as it can the pathogens grow and thrive. So keep the litterbox and wheels clean.


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## heavenlyhogs

Ian And Julie said:


> Shell
> 
> If I'm not mistaken wen we collected Leo you said this was your first litter of Hoglets.
> There were 3 in the litter, one females and two males. You said the males were the most relaxed, and affectionate. But you asked us to have the female. Ouestion now is, IS OUR LEO the MALE baby that you said is the runt and the vet said would be more suseptible with a lower imune system.
> 
> Ian


It is impossible to say where it came from.I doubt very much the rats,gliders or snakes(i have no spiders)caused it.I didn't say you DID bring it,it was just a suggestion/question that it could have come from anywhere and we are talking about ringworm not hiv so why would you be speechless?
It's important to me as a breeder and owners in general to explore all the possibilities and gather a better knowledge and understanding of how the infection works and how best to deal with it.

No of course you haven't got the "runt" which imo he isn't anyway,the boy with the lower immune system(as a baby only) went to a lady fully aware of the problem he had as a baby.I can supply you with her email addy.You were at first after the female if you remember correctly which had already been spoken for and i told you that a young girl and her father had 1st choice of the litter and they chose the girl.
Nothing is out of hand.it's a good healthy discussion.
And i for one am very very interested in learning all aspects of this infection and its causes.
And i'm very glad you informed me of it,i do appreciate that.


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## heavenlyhogs

I do know ringworm is a fungal infection,but many treatments these days are combined and treat for multiples.Don't recall if one is available to treat ringworm att he same time.
No the hoglet was not misdiagnosed.


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## heavenlyhogs

Nancy that link you gave for ringworm is the best thing online i have read so far is there anyway that could be made as a sticky?


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## Ian And Julie

Shell

We had both our beautifull white Samoyed dogs checked by our own vet the day after Leo was confirmed by the specialist vet. We told them the story and asked them to look specifically for Ringworm which they did. Both dogs were at the time declared clear. But we shall be taking them back in two weeks for a furter test just in case it has been passed to them.

On another note I'm not sure if it was the Reaper or Nancy who mentioned the infection is opportunistic only attacking damaged skin. If you remember Shell we had only just got back from a 3 week holiday in Spain and Julie was particulally well tanned for her. If this could be classed as damage that would explain why she cought it and I havent.


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## HedgeMom

Damaged can be any break in the skin. In my case, just scratching an itch broke the skin enough for the fungus to move in. I have a bad habit of scratching when I'm concentrating. If there was microscopic blistering or an abrasion, that's enough to make the skin susceptible. 

I don't know how they have you treating the hedgehog but if he were mine, he'd get a bath in oatmeal soap, a nice toothbrush scrub and a skin inspection. If his skin looks healthy and clean, I'd relax. 

One other thing. Did they culture your wife's ringworm for type?


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## Tan

Hey Guys,
Sorry to but in here but after reading this post I felt I needed to share me experience and knowledge on this subject.
Firstly as many have said ringworm is a fungus (a parasitic one at that) and is a spore. In order to survive it needs to have a supply of keratin although in saying that in can lay in stasis if you like for up to one year awaiting a host so there is no possible way of saying where it originated from unless a definite source can be located which from reading the posts, cannot be. Being a spore it can become air born too. Also once on its host it can take up to 14days to ‘grow’. Also I have seen a woods lamp mentioned a number of times. Some one has mentioned other fluoresants but what has not been said is roughly only 50% of microspore will actually show and in saying that, just because you get a fluoresce do not mean it is ringworm or a fungus at all. Woods lamps are not only used to detect some fungi so unless a skin scraping is sent off for confirmation you cannot say this is ringworm in your hedgie.
Can I ask what colour your fluoresce was as fungal is blue-ish green under the lamp.
My experiences with the APH spans over six years but with hedgehogs in general is over 16yrs as I run a small wildlife and domestic rescue and am the only APH rescue in Ireland and this year alone I rescued over THIRTY APH all ringworm active. With no insults intended to any American members, APH carrying ringworm is very common in Europe, more so in Eastern Europe and this is based on my own knowledge and experiences and also for verification the IHR were made aware of all my findings, lab work, treatments as it was a first for us all to have dealt with this in such high numbers. Also tea tree oil is NEVER used in European Hedgies for treatment of ringworm, we use on all hedgies regardless of genus, Imaverol. Just for the record I have treated Atelerix, Hemiechinus and Erinaceous for ringworm with two genuses this year alone.
Can I also ask why a skin scrape cannot be done on your hedgehog? I have had an 8weeker & 10weeker (both rescues imported from Germany by a store) scraped and confirmed by Axiom labs in the UK after under 7days growth in the dish so I am sorry but have to disagree with the information you provided or were provided with.
Scratching can be common and reasons ranging from bedding even if synthetic to mites although again I have been told are not very common in America are very common in our European APH, infact I have NEVER had an APH from the UK, Germany, Northern Ireland, Austria and Holland that did not carry a small load of mites. You also say he’s on intrfungal. I have never seen orals used in a ‘suspected’ case as a dip or spray with a antifungal solution is more than enough to kill off any spores. I am curious to know if your vet told you why he chose this option as I find others experiences fascinating and medically speaking am always intrigued by others options in treatments, also is a learning curve for us all, so would love to know (sorry for being so nosey). Also TriGene is our cleaner of choice, it is the fungal destroyer used by the vets over here but we buy it in 5ltr concentrate and dilute our selves to desired solution. 
Another thing which should be mentioned is ALL hedgie carry parasites and do need treatment. Although we do not all see the tell tail green jelly poos in carriers they do have them as husbandry over here is very lax indeed. We use parazole successfully in all our hedgies every three months precautionary. I can confidently say successfully due to the ridicules amount of money we have spent of lab work, again with Axiom to come to our conclusions.


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## Tan

Also I forgot to add, bedding does not have to be discarded or hides. Ringworm cannot survive steam so if you can buy a little steamer with a nozel you can use it on wood based shacks like I use and also bedding can be washed at 90degrees with all spores killed, is cannot survive this temp.


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## Ian And Julie

Hi Tan

Firstly thanks for your input and valuable information.
The fungus showed up as flurescent green. The vet chose to treat with INTRAFUNGOL oral solution as he had used it several times on wild hedgehogs sucsessfully to treat Ringworm.
The medication was very expensive at £50 for a 52ml bottle.
The stool sample results came back today and they showed a slight worm infestation. We need to see him to get treatment for this.
The vet chose not to do a skin scrape on Leo as this was not required based on my wifes visible symptoms, Leo's green glow and his extensive experiences with treating hogs.
A culture for type was not done on my wife as at the time we did not think this relevant and neither did the doctor, ITS RINGWORM.

Hedgehog Mom asked how we are treating Leo, 
The treatment for Leo is with Itrafungol an oral solution. We have to syringe feed him with this every day for a week, then a week off then a week of treatment again for 5 consecutive weeks.
We have not been advised to bath him but this may be a good idea as he seems to be constantly scratching and as he is now in an empty plastic cage we can see a white dandruff type substance allong with the odd quill on the cage bottom.

Ian & a very itchy Julie


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## Tan

Ian And Julie said:


> Hi Tan
> 
> Firstly thanks for your input and valuable information.
> The fungus showed up as flurescent green. The vet chose to treat with INTRAFUNGOL oral solution as he had used it several times on wild hedgehogs sucsessfully to treat Ringworm.
> The medication was very expensive at £50 for a 52ml bottle.
> The stool sample results came back today and they showed a slight worm infestation. We need to see him to get treatment for this.
> The vet chose not to do a skin scrape on Leo as this was not required based on my wifes visible symptoms, Leo's green glow and his extensive experiences with treating hogs.
> A culture for type was not done on my wife as at the time we did not think this relevant and neither did the doctor, ITS RINGWORM.


Thank you for the reply. I would just like to point out I never said it wasn't ringworm in your wife so do not see the need for the LOUD words, I do apologise if what I wrote has offended you in any way. Sorry again if I seem rude I honestly don't mean to be but text does not show emotions, so apologise again but considering I have dealt with more ringworm cases than most vets have seen and I eat, breed and sleep hedgies my entire life and my exotic formulary is my bible I was only pointing out as your vet will tell you the woodslamp shows many things from fungi to bacterial and you cannot go on a fluorese alone. Just because I do not have a number of initials following my name does not mean I know less or have given misleading information compared to that of a vet when it comes to my babies. Yes granted bluey-green indicates fungi but you cannot say which one without the scrapping, so there for cannot say it is confirmed ringworm as it isnt, thats all I meant. We are all hear to help each other and I just offered my experiences and knowledge. As I said parasites are common and should have worded that better to say worms and easily treated, you will probably get Parazole or the like, usually a five day corse, has he done the green jelly poo at all, usually seen with a heavier load but still happens. I am very sorry you are dealing with this so please acccept that as I know the first case I had scared the living day lights out of me and it is not a nice thing to have contracted either so I do hope, although it doesnt seem like it, but honestly that both your wife and your baby are OK, all I wanted to do was help.


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## HedgeMom

Actually I think he was yelling at me. There are several strains of ringworm (not just one fungus) so taking a culture can be quite helpful in determining the source. As you can see from this list from http://www.mycology.adelaide.edu.au/Myc ... ophytosis/

Epidermophyton floccosum Humans Common 
Trichophyton rubrum Humans Very Common
Trichophyton interdigitale Humans Very Common
Trichophyton tonsurans Humans Common 
Trichophyton violaceum Humans Less Common 
Trichophyton concentricum Humans Rare* 
Trichophyton schoenleinii Humans Rare* 
Trichophyton soudanense Humans Rare* 
Microsporum audouinii Humans Less Common* 
Microsporum ferrugineum Humans Less Common*
Trichophyton mentagrophytes Mice, rodents Common 
Trichophyton equinum Horses Rare 
Trichophyton erinacei Hedgehogs Rare* 
Trichophyton verrucosum Cattle Rare 
Microsporum canis Cats Common 
Microsporum gypseum Soil Common 
Microsporum nanum Soil/Pigs Rare
Microsporum cookei Soil Rare

There are quite a few ringworms that are common in humans, yet only one ringworm in hedgehogs and it's rare.

And Ian, addressing why you didn't get it is simple. It's just not that easy to catch it if your skin is in good shape and you take ordinary precautions. Hand washing, not sharing towels. etc. My husband never caught it from either the chinchillas or me, even though there was skin to skin contact before diagnosis. He's just got healthier skin than I do.


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## Ian And Julie

Hi it's itchy here,

Sorry if my husbands use of capitals was seen as shouting the trouble is that all we wanted to do was advise the breeder there could be a problem. However when I was looking for advise on the web I came across the posting and Ian & I felt we should let people know our side of the story.

Yes Leo had taken to sleeping under my shirt or jumber and did not like to be removed so yes I was poked and did go on to develop the ringworm on that site.

My own vet who looks after my two dogs (not Leo), stated to me that they oftern diagnose ringworm on pets from their owners symtoms & he has also suffered with it.

Please understand we only joined to get advise and make others aware, Leo is apart of our family now we will get and seek the best treatment and advice we can get, and I have no doubt this will come from experienced APH keepers.

I have researched into the best food as I was not sure that Whiskers complete would give him all he required to develop into a strong healthy hedgehog, so I have taken to providing him with Royal Canin as well as crickets a few meal worms and small amount of fruit banana & apple, but would welcome advice on any vitamin supplements that he should be getting if any. 

Thank you to all who have veiwed and offered their experiences and knowledge it is appreciated after all we just want Leo to be in good health & I would like to stop itching it's been 7days now and I have been told it will take some time but Leo & Me we will get through this.

Take care,

Julie


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## Ian And Julie

Hi Tan

I'm sorry that you thought I was shouting at you or anyone by my use of capitals. It was just meant to emphasise the word not shout it.

Ian


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## Ian And Julie

Hi All
Just thought I would post a couple of pictures of the Ringworm my wife has so we all know what we are looking at. Sorry if it doesnt work as this is my first try at uploading a pic.
Also a pic of Leo.

Ian[attachment=0:3sgpoa78]Leo 1.jpg[/attachment:3sgpoa78][attachment=1:3sgpoa78]Ring 2.jpg[/attachment:3sgpoa78][attachment=2:3sgpoa78]Ring 1.jpg[/attachment:3sgpoa78]


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Ian And Julie said:


> I'm sorry that you thought I was shouting at you or anyone by my use of capitals. It was just meant to emphasise the word not shout it.


*Online Etiquette:* allows for capital letters to emphasize words. It is not considered yelling, unless you type an entire sentence or paragraph in caps.


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## sebian

While that ringworm looks horrific, Leo is a cutie-pants!


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## Tan

I didn't think you shouted at me at all I thought you did use loud words though but can understand why. Oh I had a look back over my lab work, one result came back as Microsporum spp. 

I think we are starting to loose perspective here some what. What matters is that your wife has got it mos def and your hedgie may so we always take preventative steps if this were to happen (great pics btw of the ringworm). Are you putting an ointment of your self as well as oral? There is a great anti-fungal wash you can use in the shower which I import from Germany, it's safe for the hedgies too (that’s who I got it for but made for people), it's called Terzolin (will check spelling because that could be wrong) . I agree vets can and do based on the owners say well I think this is what this is and in many cases are correct but we always go for the lab work (and I know it can be costly) cause I like to know exactly what I'm dealing with and it makes sense as well due to coincidences which can and do happen. I also have about 50 animals, mostly rescues at any given time as we are only a small rescue on top of all the hedgies and my family who could in theory contract what ever it is. Thing with animals which annoys me on some level is they are so good at hiding things from us. 

I know someone who contracted it a few years ago and the ointment after 7days had done nothing so the treatment was upped and he is scarred now due to the ringworm being more aggressive but I do not know what strain it was, I know someone else who got over it with in a few weeks with no ill effects so I think it depends on firstly the person and also the ringworm strain but fingers crossed it will start to get better very soon.

I can tell you that all the hedgies I have treated even some of the leper-ish ones which sound terrible but that is what they looked like, nearly all quills & hair gone, skin infections secondary to the ringworm, lumps and bumps and pretty disgusting looking tbh, had all healed with no scaring and all doing well. Actually I don’t recall a hedgie who didn't fully recover and look normal when treatment was over.

Diet wise this will come down to a matter of opinion, some will say one thing and others will say another. I think it helps to look at the Scientific category they belong to and then the natural behaviour in the wild of ALL hedgies. Although varys from genus to genus, they do share many similar traits. As they are an insectivore I only give kibble to keep teeth in check rather than the biggest part of the diet. Some fruits and plant matter cannot be fully digested by hedgies and I honestly have never seen the advantages of offering them or disadvantages of not offering them. If you take the poo and pull it apart you can see some undigested plant matter, banana will digest though but can cause a little bit softer poo but this would be natural as apposed to an undesired effect. 

They do need slightly higher protein and love animal protein so boiled chicken, morio worms (gut loaded 2-3 days prior to being fed to your hedgie of course), hoppers as apposed to crickets (the Calcium to Phosphorus level is 2:1 in some supplements like T-Rex and this would be a good ratio to work with if your going to ad anything to the diet, again gut loaded insects)
I have to say I don't usually bother supplementing as once you have a good balanced diet they shouldn't need it. I have had no ill effects either way, some may sware by or against it so again the choice is yours. You can also get Calcium from a natural health food store but IF I choose to supplement I would go for the mix with a 2:1 ratio (this is my opinion and may not be agree with by others). Oh you can also go for vit D3 which can come in premade powders as a complete mix along with C&P. I have had no MBD in either wild or domestic animals with no sign of softening or subtle bones or structure and I know there is still some debate as to whether hedgies need any sun light but as most do come out as sun is setting and not complete dark they do get some exposure so there for the body is filtering it and it is important for bone growth BUT if you go a little mental like me about all these thing many don't even think of and I can tell you many hedgie people look at my like I’m a nutter and say sure I give them any old thing, I don’t, read the side of the bags of kibble you buy, compare them in the supermarket, they give everything from Ash content to phos, and this with a balanced diet of gut loaded insects and other animals proteins should be enough. BUT keep in mind you do not want higher phos especially if your hedgie had a kidney disease as some do develop in later life, just something to keep in mind. 

Also a little tip but no good for this time of year as your weather is worse the ours and it's cold here now, but when its warm you can bring your hedgie for outside time in the garden. You can buy a little pen for very small furries and they cannot get out and just watch the fun, loads of anointing and sniffs to be had but the most important thing is they are getting day light and fresh air. Again my opinion but heck, many taking this advice and swearing by it now. If you do go out side even just in arms and spent time with him out doors I would recommend you stronghold him quarterly, this is what we do and it a good habit to get in to. Now we looked up selemectin a while back in the Formulary and it states takes care of external parasites in hedgies, no mention of it does or doesn’t work inside, so it obviously must not do for the hedgies what it does for the cats and dogs but still, Parazole every now and then will take care of insides.

Any other question feel free to ask and again sorry for getting off on the wrong foot.


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## heavenlyhogs

Have been speaking at length with my vet and as my vet is solely responsible for my animals am going on their advise and treating as a precautionary method despite the fact there are no visual cues.
Also interesting is that i use to keep my hedgies in a room upstairs but due to recent refurbishment and decoration moved them downstairs to the dining room where indeed the cats are allowed.Think i'm most definately moving the herd back upstairs to the room where the cats have no acess.It is my decision to treat precautionary for this and all other litters in the future before rehoming.I have informed other litter owners and one has reported nothing and i await news on the remaining hog.Best to check.

Could me AND my children be immune to it?
I have attatched a pic of the condition(infected eczema)i was suffering from during the time i had and handled the hoglets.








and yes it was every bit as painful as it looks!


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## heavenlyhogs

Just been on the phone to my exotic pet vet again about the possibility of doing scrapes on my hedgies and she has informed me that if an animal has no visual clues that it cannot be said the test is negative even if the first comes back as negative until you have 3 clear scrapes in a row thus giving a "TRUE" negative result.


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## Ian And Julie

Hi Shell

When all this first broke out you sent Julie and I an email stating, and I quote

*"i have arranged for some of my hedgies to be seen first thing tomorrow".*

Did you infact take them? Because we have been waiting for you to get back to us with the results and as yet you have not replied to us at all.

Also why would you start treating your herd for Ringworm if you have not got it. Would it not be easier just to let the vet see them. Then he can give you his PROFESSIONAL ( <---- Not Shouting Tan) Oppinion. Just a thought.

Ian


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## Ian And Julie

Just thought I would add a picture of Leo just about to have his medication, and one of our Samoyeds, Katie.

Ian & Julie[attachment=0:1jsj2gxu]Katie.jpg[/attachment:1jsj2gxu][attachment=1:1jsj2gxu]Leo.jpg[/attachment:1jsj2gxu]


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## heavenlyhogs

Ian&Julie 
i have just emailed you.
If you have read above you will see my vet rang me and didn't see the need for a consultation as if there are no visual clues then the only way to tell for sure would be via 3 negative scrapes to acheive a "true"negative which your vet should have told you regarding your dogs,and which my vet said was also an option that i could consider but advised it would be best to treat as a "PRECAUTION"
Also i stated that the vet thinks that it could have entered the house as easy as it left given the time frames mentioned with no visual clues in ANY animal of my many in the home.either way it's impossible to tell and higly unusual given my skin condition which would be a fungai haven for such a parasite such as this NOT to grow,this in itself is rather strange.
The thing is there is no sure way of knowing where it came from and who brought it to who.


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## heavenlyhogs

That's my vets professional opinion...3 scrapes for a "TRUE" negative result .That would take 6 weeks+ and either way and whichever way around we've all(possibly) been exposed to this infection so i think it's definately best just to deal with that instead of all the if whats buts and maybes.


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## Reaper

Like I stated before HOW you were exposed isn't the question. The fungus that causes the many different types of ringworm are EVERYWHERE. Exposure isn't the problem, having a strong immune system to fight off the pathogen is. So keep a close eye out for new infections and treat any current infections. Also learn what you can do to prevent environments where these pathogens can thrive in your house. Damp, warm, dark areas are places fungus thrive. Take as many preventive measures as possible. You and your pets are constantly exposed to the fungus that cause ringworm. ONLY when the OPPORTUNITY is right can the fungus thrive causing the infection. So eliminating the OPPORTUNITY is the best way to avoid future infections. You can do this by providing a healthy clean environment, proper temperature, a nutritious diet, and safe stress free interaction with your pet. A happy pet provided with proper nutrition and a safe environment is the best way to keep their immune system at peak performance.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Ringworm is just about as common as the common cold. Most of the time, you never know where it came from, nor do you worry about where it came from. For a common cold, you go to the doc if the symptoms persist into a possible bacterial infection, and otherwise you treat yourself for the symptoms with OTC meds. (*most*) Ringworm can be treated with OTC meds. Any meds for athletes foot or jock itch, will usually take care of minor cases. If it worsens, you go to the doc and get stonger meds.

You can't test your self for cold virus BEFORE you catch it, so there is no need to test for ringworm before symptoms appear. Stop worring about the "who, what, where, when, and why". It's just not worth the fuss.


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## heavenlyhogs

Ian and Julie at the end of the day you have a beautiful little hedgie boy bred by myself to the best of my capabilities for which i put you the top of my list for over everyone else because i felt you had the best home to offer him which was important to me.He is VERY friendly which is an indication of the time,effort and love i put into each and every one of them,that's evident in each one.Yes,so it hasn't been plain sailing for you but then it never really is for anyone that owns animals.And i'm sorry you expirienced this but as reaper pointed out it's an oppurtunist thing and could have happened in numerous ways to anybody and i certainly hope that you will keep in touch with updates of my boy as that's very important to me.


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## Ian And Julie

Shell you are missing the point.

Yes it may take 3 scrapes for an all clear. But It only takes one examination for him to say you have it. Why are you avoiding this.

And why do you need a photograph of my wife's infection holding todays paper????????

Ian


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## heavenlyhogs

I feel like i'm banging my head against a brick wall. :roll: 
you're going on what your vet tells you and i'm taking the advise of my vet.There is NO way a vet can 100% confirm ringworm if there are NO visual clues.
Even if there were visuals or it was confirmed..what EXACTLY would it proove?
It would not prove it originated from here,there or anywhere.
The picture is for dating reference purposes...


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## Ian And Julie

Shell
You keep saying visual clues, you dont have the professional equipment to say your herd has no visible signs. Leo still has no outwardly visible signs but he glows green under the woods lamp thats a mighty powerfull indicator to anyone that doesnt have their head in the sand.

Anyway we feel we have had enough of all this. We are leaving the board and require no further contact from youreself over this matter.

Thank you everyone else for your help and advise in this matter, especially Tan who has lots of great advise to offer.

Bye from Ian & Julie.


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## heavenlyhogs

The light show LOADS of fungai it still does not prove ringworm without the necessary scrapes.
I don't understand your hostility in the matter tbh ,the infection has been explained to you back to front,front to back and still you do not seem to understand it.
Seems to me you just want to lay blame where there is none and clearly stated you didn't.It's one of those things unfortunately and you need to start accepting that as do i and move on like you said.
Good luck and goodbye.


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## Reaper

Ok I have tried to be subtle! The forum is NOT the place for a back and forth argument! This thread stopped being productive a long time ago. Therefore I am closing this thread. I would recommend you take this off of the forum and work it out amongst yourselves! If any other threads start on this same difference I will place ALL involved parties on moderated status until they can show they are using the forum for positive exchanges of information and experiences.


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## Reaper

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_ringworm.html


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