# Skink/Hedgehog Chow?



## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Here's a question: Can I feed my hedgehog and my blue tongued skink (hencefoth known as a BTS) the same diet, or a diet with the same ingredients?

Rocket gets all fresh food with a supplement of wet cat food for some of the meat portion. BTS need 50% of their diet to be vegetables, 40% to be meat, and 10% fruit. Ingredients I usually use for her are:

*Veggies (about 50%)*:
romaine lettuce
kale
broccoli stems, leaves, and tops
carrot
squash (butternut and spaghetti usually)
green/red/yellow peppers
*
Fruits (10%)*:
apple
pear
banana
whatever's on sale (last month it was persimmons, which she loved but I wouldn't give to Finnick. The month before it was blueberries.)

*Meat (about 40%)*:
mealworms
waxworms
crickets in a can
shelled snails in a can
cooked lean ground chicken
wellness wet cat food - both cubes and flakes of turkey and chicken

I typically grate all of the veggies into a big bowl, peel and mush up the fruit and mix that in, mush up the crickets, snails, chicken, and cat food and mix that in and then freeze it in individual portions. That way I can make my BTS a month's worth of chow at a time. I sprinkle a few live goodies and some extra snails on top when I feed her. It ends up a finely grated semi-mushy cole slaw consistency.

The kale, broccoli, carrot, and banana goes in every time no matter what, because of what Rocket needs nutritionally. I also always use at least some cat food, just because it's handy, she really likes it, and her vet from Calgary likes the brand I chose.

Would this work for Finn? I'm guessing I'd need to decrease the veggies down to maybe 20%, and bring the meat up to 70%?

Here's the Wellness cat food details:

*Cubed Chicken Entree*:
Ingredients:
Chicken, Chicken Broth, Water Sufficient for Processing, Peas, Dried Egg Whites, Natural Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Guar Gum, Spinach, Sodium Phosphate, Ground Flaxseed, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Cranberries, Minerals (Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite, Potassium Iodide), Carrageenan, Taurine, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid), Choline Chloride.

Analysis:
Crude Protein Not Less Than	8.0%
Crude Fat Not Less Than	4.0%
Crude Fiber Not More Than	1.0%
Moisture Not More Than	82.0%

*Cubed Turkey Dinner*:
Ingredients:
Turkey, Turkey Broth, and then exactly the same as above.

Analysis:
Same as above

*Chunky Turkey & Boneless Chicken Entree in Sauce*:
Ingredients:
Chicken Broth, Turkey, Boneless Chicken, Tapioca Starch, Dried Egg Product, Natural Flavor, Tricalcium Phosphate, Sunflower Oil, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Taurine, Minerals [Ferrous Glycine Complex, Zinc Glycine Complex, Manganese Glycine Complex, Copper Glycine Complex, Sodium Selenite, Potassium Iodide], Choline Chloride, Vitamins [Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin], Guar Gum, Magnesium Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate.

Analysis:
Crude Protein Not Less Than	6.00%
Crude Fat Not Less Than	2.00%
Crude Fiber Not More Than	1.50%
Moisture Not More Than	85.00%

So going by Kelsey's DMB calculation on the sticky, the protein in these is much too high, right? I get 8/15=0.53 and 6/15=0.4, so 53% and 40%, yes? (I'm terrible at math. You should have seen me in my University Astronony class trying to calculate distances between planets. It was bad. I nearly failed.) So if that's right, I'll have to use low fat insects, ie crickets, to cut the protein. Or will the integration of the veggies bring it down enough if I do 70% meat, 30% veggies, 10% fruit?

*Vegetable Stats:*
Kale:
16% protein, 12% fat, medium fiber.
Broccoli:
20% protein, 9% fat, high fiber.
Carrot:
5% protein, 3% fat, high fiber.
Red Pepper:
13% protein, 9% fat, high fiber.

*Fruit Stats:*
Banana:
4% protein, 3% fat, medium fiber.
Apple:
2% protein, 2% fat, low-medium fiber.

*Meat Stats:*
Lean ground chicken:
52% protein, 48% fat (yikes, I had no idea!)
Crickets:
21.3% protein, 6% fat, 3.2% fiber.
Mealworms:
20.3% protein, 12.7% fat, 1.7% fiber.
Waxworms:
15.5% protein, 22.2% fat, 7.70% fiber.
Snails:
72% protein, 14% fat, low fiber.

So. Is it doable?! Am I at least in the right direction? I need an adult!

References:
People-food data from http://nutritiondata.self.com/
Bug data from http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/99-live-insect-nutritional-analysis.html
DMB calculation from http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/114530-advanced-nutrition-guide.html


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Here is a bit more info for you to process. https://www2.ca.uky.edu/enri/pubs/enri129.pdf Moisture content in fruits and veggies.

I am not a math person myself. When I was in college I swore they should have sent me to the preschool on campus for my math class. And I'm in the medical field, talk about comforting!!

Calculate the dry matter for everything because you will have some big variances in moisture content with everything. This link http://www.healthaliciousness.com/nutritionfacts/nutrition-comparison.php?o=11233&t=11457&h=11507 will be helpful with that.

Then comparatively speaking you know where things stand. Then start playing with numbers for your individual sections. You will also hopefully be able to see where something needs adjusted.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I just woke up, but after I get rid of brain fog, I'll take another look & give a better response!! But at first glance, it definitely looks like it'd work, and the only thought I have is maybe adding a bit of calcium to balance out the chicken & insects. I know the kale & broccoli both have calcium, but with the higher level of meat for Finn over the higher level of veggies for the BTS, it might something to consider anyway. But I may revise that opinion when I look again!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Okay, so...I think I've finished calculations to find the final protein, fat, and fiber percentage of the mix if you go with the assumed ratios. I'll try to explain as I go how I did each step, both so people can see how I did it, and so my work can be double-checked.

First, I did use different sources for my information (or at least some of it).

Insects: I used this study instead of the chart linked from the forum sticky - http://nagonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/NAG-FS003-97-Insects-JONI-FEB-24-2002-MODIFIED.pdf The reason is because I think the waxworm data is off in the one provided in the sticky - the fiber content seems way too high for a soft-bodied worm. I also wanted to make sure the info all came from one study, and because the chart gives the DMB percentages without having to calculate them again.

I also calculated out the percentages for the human food from the nutritiondata site by first finding the % moisture (water weight divided by total weight), then finding the percentage of protein, fat, and fiber (dietary fiber) by using the weights listed in the info lower on the page divided by the total weight. Then found the DMB protein, fat, and fiber by dividing the percentage by the % dry matter. I can explain that further if I'm confusing anyone! :lol:

So, that explained, here are the percentages I got for each item:

*Meat*

- Wellness cubed chicken & cubed turkey:
protein: 44%
fat: 22%
fiber: 5.5%

- Wellness chunky turkey:
protein: 40%
fat: 13%
fiber: 10%

- lean chicken:
protein: 64%
fat: 8.5%
fiber: 0%

- crickets: 
protein: 65%
fat: 14%
fiber: 9.4%

- mealworms:
protein: 53%
fat: 33%
fiber: 5.7%

- waxworms:
protein: 42%
fat: 46%
fiber: 4.8%

- snails:
protein: 78%
fat: 2.5%
fiber: 13.3%

*Veggies*

- kale:
protein: 22%
fat: 4.7%
fiber: 12.7%

- broccoli:
protein: 26%
fat: 2.7%
fiber: 23.6%

- carrot:
protein: 7.8%
fat: 0%
fiber: 30%

- red pepper: 
protein: 12.5%
fat: 3.8%
fiber: 26%

*Fruits*

- banana:
protein: 4.4%
fat: 1.2%
fiber: 10.4%

- apple:
protein: 2.3%
fat: 0.7%
fiber: 10%

Next step includes the assumption that each item in a food group will have equal weight within that food group. I did this because I'm lazy & wanted easier calculating. :lol: Equal weight means to get the average percentages for the group, you just add them together & divide by the number of items. That gives us...

*Meat with cubed Wellness products*
protein: 57.7%
fat: 21%
fiber: 6.5%

*Meat with chunky Wellness product*
protein: 57%
fat: 19.5%
fiber: 7.2%

*Veggies*
protein: 17.1%
fat: 2.8%
fiber: 23.1%

*Fruit*
protein: 3.4%
fat: 0.95%
fiber: 10.2%

And final step to get the final percentages of the whole mix...this is where I got a bit uncertain, so if anyone can weigh in on whether I used the right calculations & if this would be correct, I'd appreciate it! From what I'm thinking, since the ratios (60% meat, 30% veg, 10% fruit) would stay the same, the percentages would be the same regardless of how much of the final mixture Finn eats. I.e., the ratios would be the same whether he got 6g meat, 3g veg, 1g fruit or 12g meat, 6g veg, 2g fruit, so the percentages would still be the same, if that makes sense.

Equation shown with the Wellness cubed information:

(.6)57.7 + (.3)17.1 + (.1)3.4 = 34.62 + 5.13 + 0.034 = 39.8% protein
(.6)21 + (.3)2.8 + (.1)0.95 = 12.6 + 0.84 + 0.095 = 12.5% fat
(.6)6.5 + (.3)23.1 + (.1) 10.2 = 3.9 + 6.93 + 1.02 = 11.85% fiber

So the protein/fat/fiber for the chunky Wellness would come out to
39.4% protein
12.6% fat
12.27 fiber

Pretty close, really!

Now, further discussion on the meal plan...

- Personally, I would go with berries over apples! They have a lot of great nutrients and are generally considered to be a more nutritious fruit than apples. Then again, that also assumes that Finn will eat them, which could be a problem if he doesn't like berries or is picky. That would also change calculations a bit - Now that I've done this all out once, I'm considering making an Excel document where you could plug in numbers & have the program do all of the work for you. That would make it much easier to play around with ingredients & get final percentages of a proposed mix rather than spending an hour recalculating each time you want to try something new.

- Along with the berries mention, something I plan on doing when I come up with a diet for Bindi is going through to make sure all necessary vitamins & minerals are accounted for. They will be at least in some amount, due to the Wellness portion of the mix, which includes a vitamin/mineral supplement. But it wouldn't hurt to check the other parts of the mix to see what vitamins & minerals are accounted for in them & what might be lacking (which could be made up for by switching out an item, adding an item, or just giving something as an extra treat a couple nights a week or something).

- I mentioned being a bit concerned about calcium, especially with fewer veggies than meat. Having the balanced Wellness in there would help, but there's still the issue with all of the other meat items being imbalanced. I'm going to say right now that I'm TRASH at figuring out ratios. :lol: So I need to look again at the info for the insects and look up the info for the meat & veggies again to see if I can figure out what the ratio would be for the mix as is. I feel like it would be a good idea to add just a bit of calcium in there (from a reptile calcium powder or powdered eggshells), but I'll get back to you on that if you'd like me to actually get real numbers on that (which I'm totally willing to do! I just wanted to get back a first reply with what I have so far).

- If all of this is seeming intimidating now, which numbers have a tendency to do...well, I'm sorry. :lol: I feel like getting into all of the hard calculations & whatnot are what scare people off from the idea of doing a homemade diet, which I can't blame them at all. But it's not something where if you mess with things a little here & there, you're going to kill the pet. I'm sure you already know that, since you have the other pets where they don't get just kibble out of a bowl, but just kind of a general reminder for anyone reading. I feel like the point of doing all of the calculations out for the main diet is to make sure you're at least generally on point with protein, fat, and fiber, and then you can mix things up a little with the reassurance that the numbers aren't likely to change drastically (look how small a difference it makes switching between the two Wellness products, despite having a pretty decent difference in the DMB percentages for each of them on their own). So the calculations for the base mix are to make sure it's generally on point, then if you add a bit more variety or make occasional substitutions, it likely won't cause any problems.

Okay...I'll shut up now. :lol: Was that helpful? Was it understandable?


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Two, thank you for the lovely light reading! :roll: :lol:

Kelsey, that was very helpful and totally understandable, thank you! My BTS's vet and I actually did all of this for her diet, but of course I just wrote down rough notes and use the same basic foods every time to make sure she's getting what she needs. So I have done this whole process before. My frogs, blue geckos, and cresties also get custom diets because they're actively reproducing for me, so I know alllll about calcium additives (when you're producing hard shelled eggs, you need a lot of it, or you leech it out of your own bone mass and your bones all shatter. I've seen it, and it's awful.)

I totally agree with you on berries. They have all sorts of excellent stuff like anti-oxidants. Rocket doesn't need berries but she loves them, so I could definitely add blueberries regularly. I just smush them up into the mix. Finn eats them plain willingly, so they would work. And I can eat the leftovers! I love blueberries.

I'll definitely use the Wellness rather than ground chicken, just because of the added nutrients. That's why Rocket gets it every meal.

I believe you are correct about the ratios being the same and therefore the percentages being the same, but you've seen my math skills in action.

When I mix my BTS chow I always use equal portions of every ingredient within that ingredient's section. So there will be the same amount of kale as there is broccoli, and then the same amount of crickets as mealworms. With Finn, I could easily use, say, a half cup of every ingredient, and just add more varieties of insects than of veggies to cause the meat/veg/fruit percentage values I need. Or I can get complicated if I really want to, but that means more math. Ugh.

A spreadsheet would be fantastic. Especially for anyone who reads all these raw diet threads and then sees the calculations involved :lol:. You should see the one I made for my fish tank. It makes everything much less intimidating.

Is there a list of vitamins and minerals for hedgehogs around somewhere that I can use as a checklist? I think everything should be covered because the BTS needs basically what a person does, but it never hurts to double check. The kale is pricey but I use it because it really is a superfood. It's also high in calcium. Dark leafy greens are awesome. And the bananas are for potassium. I'll try to maths that out and see if there's enough of everything in the veggie department or if a supplement would help. And if a calcium supplement would help I have seven kinds here, so I'll have to go and read all of those. One has vitamin D3 for my day geckos, one has some chitin in it for extra protein... I'd have to read the others. I have one called Dendrocare for the frogs that basically contains everything they need, so I can feed them the most garbage fruit flies ever and they'll still be healthy as long as I powder them first. Really cool stuff.

I like having a ton of variety in a mix, all of which I've calculated out. That way if an ingredient isn't in stock, or is all wilty and gross which sometimes happens out here with broccoli and bananas, I can replace it with something and the animal will still have a balanced diet.


One more question: Freezing vegetables. My skink's vet said it would be alright for Rocket since they usually eat carrion and leftover garbage from other animals, but will the freezing remove too many beneficial nutrients from the veggies for them to be good for Finnick?

Thank you so much for helping me with all of this!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I figured you had a good idea of what you're doing! I just couldn't remember how many animals you had to do custom diets for. I'll have to add the spreadsheet to my list of things to do...it keeps growing and I'm so bad at actually working on it!  Only thing I've gotten done from the list recently is updating the Raw Diet sticky.

I'm guessing if everything's covered for the BTS, it should be covered for a hedgie too! But if you do want to go over it once more, these are the two links I have for double-checking vitamins & minerals - http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-diets-for-dogs-getting-enough-vitamins-and-minerals/ and http://www.kaossiberians.com/old kaos pages/health/Nutrients.pdf

I like the first one since it includes a short explanation of why the item is important in the body. I'm jealous of your calcium collection now. :lol:

IMO, freezing the veggies should be fine for Finn, too. I haven't done in-depth research to check, but I've read several times that freezing for a few months or so doesn't cause a significant enough loss in nutrients to really cause a huge issue - and I know I've also read a couple times in terms of humans that frozen veggies/fruit can actually be healthier than fresh depending on the state of the fresh stuff (since the produce is frozen when it's freshest & has the most nutrients).

I'm super curious to see how Finn likes the new diet! You definitely have to keep us updated even if you're not on here as often.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

I'll take a look at those links and make sure nothing is missing, just to be safe.

If you need any help with any of those updates I'm more than willing to turn rough notes into paragraphs for you. Let me know if that would help.

Phew, I'm glad I can freeze it. This house's fridge seems to enjoy turning veggies to mush at an increased rate, but the freezer works fine. I'm scared to leave extra kale in the fridge for more than a few days. Hedgehog food wouldn't go well.

I'll pick up some ingredients this weekend and see if he'll eat any vegetables for me on their own. I doubt it. He's nothing like Bindi! :lol:. Then I'll start gradually adding the fresh stuff to a bowl beside his kibble and see what happens.

I'll keep you updated! Thanks again!


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

*Finished Product!*

Alright, here's a breakdown of vitamins and minerals and the foods that provide them. If the amount of a vitamin or mineral an ingredient contains was lower than another ingredient on the list by 50% or more I didn't include it. This is, of course, just my personal preference for variety and it's not the only mix of foods that will work! I'm not using any herbs at all because of the contraindications that can occur by mixing them.

*Vitamins:*

A
Source: Chicken/Broccoli/Carrots/Kale/Peas/Banana/Blueberries

B1
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Blueberries

B2
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Blueberries

B3
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Peas

B5
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg/Blueberries

B6
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg/

B9
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg/Broccoli/Carrot/Kale/Peas

B12
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg/

C
Source: Broccoli/Carrots/Kale/Peas/Banana/Blueberries

D
Source: Egg

E
Source: Egg/Kale/Blueberries

K
Source: Egg/Carrots/Kale/Peas/Blueberries

*Minerals:*

Calcium
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg/Kale/Peas/Gutloaded crickets

Copper
Source: Egg/Kale/Mealworms

Iodine
Source: Egg

Iron
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg/Kale

Magnesium
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg/Kale/Peas

Maganese
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg

Phosphorous
Source: Turkey/Egg/Broccoli/Kale/Peas/Banana/Gutloaded crickets

Potassium
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg/Broccoli/Kale/Peas/Banana/Blueberries/Gutloaded crickets

Selenium
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg

Zinc
Source: Chicken/Turkey/Egg/Gutloaded crickets

*Others:*

Omega 3 Acids: Kale/Egg
Antioxidants: Blueberries
Beta Carotene: Carrots

I'll be getting my chicken and turkey content from the Chunky Turkey and Boneless Chicken Entree in Sauce wet cat food by Wellness. The food has supplemental vitamins and minerals in it, and honestly, I hate working with raw meat because it grosses me out. (I'm a vegetarian because I think meat is just plain disgusting. Weird, right?)

So in my complete mix, I'll have:
Turkey, Chicken, Scrambled cooked whole egg, Banana, Blueberries, Broccoli, Carrots, Kale, Peas, Canned crickets, Canned snails, Mealworms, Waxworms, and larvae from the mealworms and waxworms.

I'll include some variety from time to time, likely in the form of squashes, spinach, and different berries. If my local bug supplier gets any different insects, I'll add those too.

My final totals will be:
Insects: 30%
Cat food: 30%
Vegetables: 30%
Fruit: 10%

I'll be mixing everything in equal parts. To make sure my canned crickets qualify as gutloaded, I'll be coating them with a powdered supplement. I'm going to start with this one: Exo Terra Calcium + D3 and if I think I need more variety I'll switch to live crickets that I feed myself or I'll add an extra supplement powder. The waxworms and mealworms will be gutloaded by me and will be fed fresh vegetables plus a blop of fruit fly culture from Jungle Jewel Exotics.

I'll go grocery shopping this weekend and we'll see what Finnick thinks by Monday night!

References: The two links provided by Kelsey above, plus:
http://www.health-alternatives.com/vitamins-nutrition-chart.html
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/
http://nagonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/NAG-FS003-97-Insects-JONI-FEB-24-2002-MODIFIED.pdf (this is just a direct link to the insect guide)


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Here's a fun twist, have you considered sprouts? And a lot of your mix can go to your Senegal too!!!


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

I was thinking about using broccoli sprouts as an occasional topper if Finn will eat them. Pepper gets them in the summer when there's enough sun coming in the window. Growing them in the winter up here sucks. :lol: Next time I have some I'll see if he'll eat them.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Looks awesome!!  I need to add this thread as a link on the sticky (if you don't mind, of course), I think it'd be super helpful for anyone else looking at doing this kind of diet. Both the explanation of how to figure out protein/fat/fiber content and then going through to account for vitamins/minerals. I can't wait to hear what Finn thinks of it!


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

I just love the way how skinks could eat almost anything


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Kelsey - if you think it's worth a sticky, go for it!

Neil - yeah skinks are awesome like that :grin:. A little bit of variety and you're good.

I'll be giving Pepper the Senegal some of the fruit/veggie mix as well to supplement her Harrison's food. And maybe some bugs if she'll take them. So that should be fun. I'm expecting bits of food stuck all over the side of the crestie cage that's beside her :lol:.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Alright, the food is all mixed up and ready to be delivered. Once I finish this update I'm taking a small portion upstairs to give to Finn. He'll usually eat when I'm watching so I'm going to sit with him and see if he'll try it tonight. If he's being shy I'll update tomorrow morning with whether or not any of it is missing.

Here's the raw ingredients:








From left to right, top to bottom, we have peas, scrambled egg, broccoli, kale, mealworms, waxworms, blueberries, two cans of cat food, canned crickets, carrots, and bananas. I grated the broccoli and carrot, and finely chopped everything else, including the bugs. I'll be adding some snails on top as garnish.

And here it is ratio'd out. There's a little extra fruit and veg there for the parrot, but the portions are pretty close:








From left to right, vegetables, fruit, and meat.

And all together. It looks tasty until you realize most of the "blueberries" are actually cricket heads:









And here's a pleasant picture of about-to-be-chopped mealies on my cutting board. I was gagging while mincing them so I just had to share the experience with all of you! They kept running away so I had to catch them and then chop them up. The little dark pieces on the board are stray cricket legs. Yummy!









I'm expecting that bowlful to be about a month's worth, but I have no idea on portion sizing yet. I'll have to wait and see if he even likes it, and then I can work out how much he needs a day once he's switched over to this food completely. If he hates it, I'll just add more veggies and save it for the skink :lol:.

If you want to give this diet a try, you may want to make a smaller batch than this first, just in case your hedgehog hates it.

I'll update again with results soon!


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

He ate about half a tablespoon of new food last night, and had about a third his usual kibble. His poops look surprisingly normal, considering the massive change. Pepper picked out the broccoli bits and stuck them to the walls, but Finnick ate some of everything! So I guess it's a success! I'll keep feeding him both the fresh food and the kibble for two weeks, slowly decreasing how much kibble I give him. I'm also going to closely monitor his weight, activity level, and poops, just in case anything changes. But I think the new food is a keeper! Woohoo!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Seriously cracking up at the mincing insects thing...I think even that's more than I could take. :lol: At least when I cut up raw meat for a dog, it's not still moving! Also I can already imagine the murderous glares my roomie would give me...They're being surprisingly good about the roaches in the freezer and the worms & maggots in the fridge. :lol:

Yaaaay!! I'm so glad he tried it & seems to like it so far.  Good job, Finn!


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Finn's still eating his new food. He seems to like it even more now. He's started eating all of what I give him and no kibble. Poops are still good, activity level is steady, no weight gain yet (I was honestly hoping for a little bit, but what can you do, besides pour in more waxworms? ) water intake is the same as usual. So I'm going to say the food switch was successful!

When I open my freezer, it's so full that rats fall out, so you have to know to catch them. One of my boyfriend's friends came over and went to put a beer in the freezer. He wasn't happy when the bag of rats landed on his feet. I thought it was pretty funny though. :lol:

I've got fruit flies and a mold culture for the springtails on the kitchen counter, mice of all sizes, rats, shrimp, and gross meal portions in the freezer, gecko food and fruit fly culture next to the pancake mix in the pantry, reptile water treatment drops at the sink, worms in the fridge, crickets and waxworms next to the TV in the living room, venison bones by the front door for the dog.... It's probably a good thing the rental company never bothers checking in. The house is spotless but there's nasty stuff everywhere.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yay!! I'm glad Finn approves of his new food. Hopefully he'll start to gain a bit as time passes & he keeps eating more of it. 

:lol: Poor boyfriend's friend! Our apartment visitors haven't had that experience yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time! Your place sounds pretty similar to mine, though a bit "worse" (I don't think it's worse, but I'm all for weird animal food everywhere :lol. We have rats, dubia roaches, and hornworms in the freezer, as well as some cooked & raw meat bits for the crabs. Phoenix worms, maggots, snails, and grasshoppers in the fridge, along with open portions of the Wellness food. And my room has a mealworm colony & a tank of springtails (maybe? I have no clue if they're still alive, I'm not the best at spraying it) and isopods (I know they're looking fat & healthy!). Just waiting to add crickets to the freezer once I get to Petsmart again. I still want to start an earthworm bin too.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

I need earthworms so badly. I used to be able to buy them in Calgary from the guy I got some of my reptiles from, but out here there's only fishing-quality ones available, and they can come with some wicked parasites. If you start a bin, do share!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

For sure! I think I have a site bookmarked where you can purchase egg casings or something like that, to start your own worm bin. I'm not sure where we'd put them yet though. I'll have to see if my roomie wants them in my room or if we can keep them out in the main area. It'd be easier to have them out there, my room's getting kind of cramped! I can't wait until I can afford the enclosures I want to buy for Bindi & Charis...I'll be able to stack them! Which means then I'll have room for more animals in here, right? :lol:


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Stackable ones are dangerous. They conserve space, and you can have more animals vertically! I've been looking at getting some custom ones from http://cornelsworld.com/ for all my reptiles and maybe even Finnick. They include heat tape on the bottoms or backs depending on where you want it. First I have to decide what species of snake I want to focus on breeding though, so I can get baby cages too.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Ooooh, those are nice!! That would be awesome, and I definitely demand pics if/when you do it! I want to get cages from http://www.apcages.com/home/, I've heard lots of great things about the company in a couple different places now. I'm looking at getting the A20 cage for both Charis & Bindi, so I'd have room to do bio-active substrate for them both, and still have room for Bindi's wheel & some higher areas for Charis to check out. I'd put Charis on the bottom, since I can use a radiant heat panel for her, and have Bindi on the top, with CHE lamps to keep her warm. I also want to see if they'd use screening for the doors for Bindi's cage, instead of glass. Less effective insulating, but better ventilation, even though they do have ventilation on the back (which seems like odd placement to me - people like to do custom backgrounds, and most people would put cages against the wall?).


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## Schlyne (Jan 21, 2016)

Animal Plastics is a great company. I still have some of my old snake racks from when I used to breed reptiles. I sold all my AP cages a while back, although I still have my old boaphile racks sitting in storage. I wouldn't recommend boaphile though. I've been out of the herp world for a while, but boaphile used to have horrible customer service (with long wait times for cages) and ap cages are cheaper and are just as good quality. 

Btw, the herpstat thermostats are really good.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Mister Finn still isn't putting on any weight, and he feels lighter today. Once he wakes up I'll plop him on the scale, but I really think I need to add more fat to his diet. So now I'm exploring for a higher fat but not too high protein wet cat food. If he wasn't such an insanely busy boy we wouldn't be having this problem. Wish me luck!


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

He's 10 grams lighter than yesterday. I got him some turkey for people, cooked it and then tore it into little flakes. Some of it has been eaten already, so I'll mix that in with his food portions for the next while.

He's currently nomming away at his fresh food mix, so it's not that he doesn't like it. I guess he just has a faster metabolism than most hedgies... If he loses any more weight we're going to the vet.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Sounds like a good plan! I always get more nervous about weight loss than weight gain, since it's so easy for them to get too skinny too fast with how small they are. I hope the turkey helps a bit.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Yeah weight loss scares me a lot. He feels better today but I didn't bug him very long because he's not up yet. The turkey is gone, as is his normal food, and the cage is trashed. He's obviously still active. His stuffed hedgie toy was in his water dish face down, absorbing day old water.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Just an update on my little man and his new diet.

He's regained about 30 grams since my last post here. His sides look straight when he stretches out now, instead of slightly indented like before, and when he sits on his bum he looks slightly round. His quills are also a brighter cream color with darker bands. I don't know if that's from the food or just a natural change, but he looks great. His eyes are also shinier. His poops are brown and firm but not rock hard, and he just looks really good all around! I've added ground boiled turkey to his diet and reduced the cat food a bit to give him a bit higher fat content.

This is the new food breakdown. It varies slightly from time to time just based on what's available. In March and for the first half of April, he's getting:

Veggies:
Kale, 10% - Vitamin E, fiber, Omega 3, minerals
Broccoli 5% - Vitamin A and C, minerals
Carrot 5% - Vitamin K, Beta Carotene, minerals
Peas 5% - Vitamin A and C
Butternut Squash, cooked 5% - Vitamin C, B6 and E, minerals

Fruit:
Blueberries 5% - Vitamin A, B1, B2, B5, C, E, K, minerals, antioxidants (woo blueberries!)
Banana 5% - Vitamin A and C, minerals, binding agent
Mango 5% - Vitamin B6, C, and K, minerals, binding agent (this gets swapped out depending on what's available)

Proteins:
Scrambled Egg 5% - Vitamin B6, B12, D, E, K, minerals (iodine), Omega 3.
Fresh Crickets 10% - Fiber, minerals
Fresh Mealworms 10% - Fiber, minerals
Fresh Waxworms 5% - minerals, fat
Boiled Ground Turkey 10% - All B vitamins, minerals, fat
Wet Cat food 15% - B vitamins, minerals, binding agent.

That should hopefully add up to 100% of his diet.

This month I decided to use a different brand of cat food. My local pet store has started stocking much higher quality brands now that they have a new manager. The stuff I chose this time is Merrick's Purrfect Bistro Grain Free Turducken (_Ingredients: Deboned Turkey, Chicken Broth, Deboned Duck, Chicken Liver, Peas, Dried Egg Product, Natural Flavor, Dried Potato, Sweet Potato, Carrots, Cranberries, Organic Alfalfa, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Carrageenan, Guar Gum, Powdered Cellulose, Sodium Phosphate, Salmon Oil, Minerals (Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Sodium Selenite), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate), Taurine, Choline Chloride, Thyme, Sage, Rosemary, Yucca Schidigera Extract_) 
and Rabbit Pate (_Ingredients: Deboned Rabbit, Chicken Broth, Deboned Chicken, Chicken Liver, Natural Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Calcium Carbonate, Organic Dried Alfalfa Meal, Sodium Phosphate, Dried Cranberries, Guar Gum, Choline Chloride, Minerals (Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Sodium Selenite), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate), Potassium Chloride, Salt, Taurine, Agar-Agar, Ground Flaxseed, Locust Bean Gum, Xanthan Gum, Yucca Schidigera Extract_). I love the inclusion of chicken liver, and I also end up with 4 sources of protein just from my canned foods this way. Rabbit is quite oily so I'm guessing if the food is causing Finnick's nicer spikes, it's likely the addition of the rabbit. I'm going to be sticking with this mix long term, since he's back up to a healthy weight, super active, shiny, and looking awesome!

For anyone looking to use this diet, I get to my totals by using weight on the veggies after they've been finely chopped (I use the scale I weigh Finnick on), and milliliters (or cups) on the proteins and smushy fruits. I make a batch large enough so that 5% of an ingredient is 1/3 a cup, or something easy to remember and measure out repeatedly. For example, I would add 1/3 cup of egg, and 1 cup of cat food. I use the banana's weight to compare grams to cups, so 1/3 cup of banana gets put on the scale, and that same weight of peas is added, and double that weight of kale. I used to do it all with cups, but the kale, carrot, and broccoli don't pack well, so the amount going into the food was skewed.

The little smufflebutt himself is staring up at me from his sack going "MOM THIS IS SO BORING" so I'm off now to let him run around on the pet room floor for a while!


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## hedgehogbrasil (Jun 12, 2016)

*Lilysmommy*, have you started, or finished, the spreadsheet that you mentioned?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I haven't, unfortunately. I'd still like to do it, but I don't know when I'll actually get around to it as I have a lot going on right now.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Lilysmommy said:


> I haven't, unfortunately. I'd still like to do it, but I don't know when I'll actually get around to it as I have a lot going on right now.


I was just sitting here half staring at the wall and half looking at Lizardgirl's old chart of cat foods when I remembered the spreadsheet you wanted to do was a thing. Did you want me to take a crack at it and then send it to you to review? I could do it in Excel and make it downloadable or in Google Docs and have a sharable URL. I'm pretty well versed in Excel and did take a university course in it, so that shouldn't be a problem, and as far as I know, 90% of the code will still work in the Google version so I can just port it over. I could also do it in visual basic as a small popup window that looks like a calculator.

Yes, I'm an English nut and a coding nut. Yes I know I'm bad with numbers, but we get along just fine when I'm plugging them into a program. I'm quite the enigma :lol:.

I was thinking of putting in the DMB formula as a calculator for protein, fat, and fiber from a user-inputted source, so you would just type in the moisture percentage, and then the protein, fat, and fiber percentages and it would pop it all out. And then I'd like to add a separate section for looking up commonly used items like insects, broccoli, kale, banana, and that sort of thing. Once the DMB formula is in I can just apply it to all of the cells so it should be pretty quick once I get the raw data entered in.

Is that the kind of thing you were thinking of making or am I way off? Should I go for it?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

...Yeah, you sound better equipped to handle this than me. :lol: I've used Excel quite a bit in my classes, but I tend to forget things quickly & was anticipating lots of fighting with the program while trying to remember how to do things.

The DMB calculator is definitely one thing I was planning to put in. The commonly used items section sounds like a good idea too. I was also planning to have a section that helps you find the final percentages of a total mix, like this part of the calculations:



> From what I'm thinking, since the ratios (60% meat, 30% veg, 10% fruit) would stay the same, the percentages would be the same regardless of how much of the final mixture Finn eats. I.e., the ratios would be the same whether he got 6g meat, 3g veg, 1g fruit or 12g meat, 6g veg, 2g fruit, so the percentages would still be the same, if that makes sense.
> 
> Equation shown with the Wellness cubed information:
> 
> ...


And while I haven't done it yet....and really need to...I also like the idea of including an equation to calculate out the amount of calcium necessary to add to food to balance the diet. I do really think that's important, though I've been awful about slacking on it. Especially for anyone planning to feed a young animal on a raw diet, it's essential to make sure they're getting enough calcium. I just need to figure out how to go about getting a formula for that.

One other thing - I think it'd be a good idea to include a list of necessary vitamins & minerals, along with the amounts that they're put into commercial cat food. We know that hedgehogs do well on cat food, so my thought is that if we can be sure that everything is present in those amounts, or close to it, we can be a little more sure that they're getting what they need. It's not perfect, since there's the challenges of how well they can digest foods, what's more or less accessible to them from different foods, interactions between different nutrients, etc., but for the average owner, it'd at least make it more likely that the diet is balanced & not going to cause any deficiencies (or overdoses, for that matter). I have a link bookmarked that I can pass along to you that has information on required amounts of vitamins & minerals for commercial cat foods, if you want it.

I can try to help if you need information on anything - If you want to set up the document on Google Docs, I can copy over the info I have for my veggies & insects. And try to help with the calcium formula if you want.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Alright I've inserted all of my notes and the formula bits I've got done so far into a document. It's here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1woVqRVbpp_9DOhqmr_bGYxTz1k6MXP2YxzEEcIwjyT0/edit?usp=sharing

I have it set so anyone with this link can edit, so please be respectful if you click it and have a look. It only backs up within itself and if something is deleted or changed it's gone and we'll have to start over. If you want to add a note anywhere, click the "Editing" button on the right side and change it to "Suggesting". That way we can see your suggestions and integrate them where they're needed. Thanks!

Kelsey, go ahead and dump anything you have in the bottom of the document and feel free to add to my formulas. Bits in yellow underlined are where I'm missing important information.

I think I might actually try to revive my visual basic skills and make an actual program to do all of this, because some of it is pretty complex. But I'll need to dig up my old books and re-learn some things, so in the meantime I'm mainly going to work on data entry for the vitamins and minerals sheet and the pre-converted DMB values sheet. I'll share those once they're started.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Well, I copy/pasted the charts I made for both insects/inverts and for veggies, but they're pretty squished. :lol: May need to copy/paste them into an excel doc to really actually read them. To explain the color coding - the calcium red highlighted entries had to do with the source I got the info from, as they used different measurements (I was trying to figure it out for calculating the balancing of calcium). Ignore that for now, anyway. The red/yellow/green for the calcium-to-phos ratios were to help me see which ones had a good balance that matched what's actually needed (green), what wasn't great, but not bad (yellow), and what was highly tipped towards phosphorus (red).

For the veggies, I was trying to work out what veggies in the list were highest in which nutrients as a way to figure out which veggies would be most nutritious. Gold = highest in that nutrient, silver was next highest, bronze was third. Then I counted up how many "placings" each veggie had to judge their worth. ...I feel like this sounds weird. :lol: But it's what I came up with!

I'll try to take another look at everything later this weekend - I'm quickly running out of time tonight & still need to get dinner, but wanted to at least toss those two charts up so you have them if you want to start using any of that info. I won't have much free time over the next two days, so I'll try to do more reading & input on Sunday!


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Sounds good! I'm going to wait to take a look at them so I'm not thinking about it all weekend, but I'm hoping to really get started on Monday.

I think your system is logical! It'll definitely help a lot when I start compiling everything!


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## Thistlehedge (Oct 8, 2015)

I think this is the best thread I've come across yet! I've been crunching on my dogs' raw food stats and now want to get Thistle on something similar. I've given her some freeze dried raw as a treat and about a teaspoon of my dogs' raw beef mix with sweet potato baby food and a dry hedgie food mixed in. I also have a powder supplement I threw in. But I still need to work all the numbers out before I make it a true diet. There's just no solid research (that I've heard of) on hedgehogs. :/


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Yeah there's been like no research into their nutritional requirements. All we can do is look at what they (and their close relatives) eat in the wild and do our best.

I'm glad you enjoyed the thread! Finn is still doing well on his custom diet.


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