# I don't get it...



## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

Why is it that people get exotic pets (not only hedgies) without doing research and having the means to support them and then complain that the pet doesn't behave like a dog?

I read a lot about different animals online before deciding for our hedgie (my daughter wanted a pet and I knew in the end, it would be mine), and not only the "10 starter pets for kids" type articles. 

I just don't get it, it's sad, I feel bad for the pets that get forgotten, neglected or thrown out.


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## KristinNicole (Oct 20, 2015)

it really is sad. I did so much research before getting my hedgie. in felt like I was back in school. I wanted to make sure everything was perfect. people tend to get pets when they're trendy and then end up realizing it's too hard to take care of them. then the animal suffers.


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## Soyala_Amaya (Aug 1, 2011)

Frankly, I have no idea why people do this, but it's why I rescue. It keeps them off craigslist and the like


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## tony21 (Apr 8, 2014)

It is sad! You wouldn't believe how my animals I've picked up over the past few years (let alone the ones I've chosen not to). Alot of my pets I didn't pay for, someone's kid got bored of their snake or lizard, what ever you can name and the parents don't want it. You know what though it's not just peoples kids, its grown adults who think they like this animal and it will be fun, and like caring for a dog or cat. Eventually they realize these animals are really boring and they want nothing to do with it anymore and neglect it for a few months (or more) before they remember it's their and now they have to find a home. Drives me nuts!!! 

My girlfriend is the same way though, she will do all this research and go buy this animal, and bammm 6 months later she doesn't want it and it's now my problem. Which is why I only allow animals that I'm interested in the house, so no cats, rabbits, ferrets, small lizards. Nothing against these animals, I just know that I have no interest so they would get rehomed fast.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

What gets me is the people that get an exotic pet, or let their kid get one, and then don't want to pay for vet bills. If it was their kid that was sick would they worry about the cost of the doctor? A pet is just as dependent on its owner as a child is with its parent.


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## Soyala_Amaya (Aug 1, 2011)

The one's that actually make me really sad, on a personal level, are the one's I pick up and you can tell they obviously did research, but they got some bad, old information. I.E. too small wheel, heat lamp that gives off light, cat food but it's like Purina or something, etc. And then I get one's like the Pancake where the human obviously cared a TON, did a BUNCH of research, and still got just one or two small details wrong (wheel too small for that particular hedgehog because she is super long, and food too high in fat).


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Possibly playing devil's advocate here. And it's unfortunately not the majority. 
People's situations change, not like oh I had a baby change. Things like job loss in areas where there aren't a lot of jobs. Family dynamics change. When I was raising birds I did it with kids, but one of my children couldn't handle the noise level... So the birds went. 
What do we need to do? Continue to educate people, encourage them to question everything they are told, you will always find something to contradict what your told, find the right information. Find good sources for supplies and stay as up to date as possible on the changes in care info.


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## tony21 (Apr 8, 2014)

I always do a Ton of research and verify it all with multiple different sources. Even then the only way to know Is to try out what you've learner first hand. I really don't buy it when people have wrong set up, that they were fed wrong info. It's just really ignorance.


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

twobytwopets said:


> Possibly playing devil's advocate here. And it's unfortunately not the majority.
> People's situations change, not like oh I had a baby change. Things like job loss in areas where there aren't a lot of jobs. Family dynamics change. When I was raising birds I did it with kids, but one of my children couldn't handle the noise level... So the birds went.
> What do we need to do? Continue to educate people, encourage them to question everything they are told, you will always find something to contradict what your told, find the right information. Find good sources for supplies and stay as up to date as possible on the changes in care info.


Change of circumstances I understand, but there are so many posts from people with hedgies attempting hibernation because they don't have the right temperature settings and when told they say they don't have the money. I also remember one whose hedgie needed surgery but she couldn't afford it and was going to put it down and at the same time she was looking to adopt a new one. Or those that buy a hedgie and a month later don't have the money for a ver when it's sick or parents buying the hedgie for the kids and refusing to spend money on the vet because they don't feel it's important. Those are the problem.

Also those who whine after 2 weeks because the hedgie hates them or because they make noise at night and they have to keep them in their room, if your pet has to live in your room, you don't get a nocturnal animal.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Artemis-Ichiro said:


> Also those who whine after 2 weeks because the hedgie hates them or because they make noise at night and they have to keep them in their room, if your pet has to live in your room, you don't get a nocturnal animal.


That one recent thread really upset me. I haven't seen that poster back either, so I'm guessing they sold the hedgehog after two weeks. Animals that like to do things in the evening are going to be noisy in the evening. That's how it works. I think maybe desire for a new pet overrides common sense for some people, and that breaks my heart.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Yeah I get that, had to take a break because of them. Honestly, right now it's the heating ones that get me. How many times can a person say that a heating pad isn't a good heating system? Hibernation when something fails is one thing, hibernation attempts when a person has had their hedgehog for months without a heating system is another. 
When a person doesn't know better is one thing, totally different issue when they know better and still choose to do things wrong. 

And yes the my hedgehog hates me is funny to me. Because chances are their hedgehog hates other hedgehogs too. And then the my hedgehog makes noise at night.... So does about every other animal including people. 

I think the main issue is bad information gets passed around like toilet paper. We get people that are determined to learn things the hard way.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

While exotics have their own nuances you see these same type of complaints in just about every animal forum. You see it on reptile forums, honey bees, dogs, cats, etc. For that matter I see it in plenty of other types of forums too. I see it in car forums, plant forums, gardening forums. There are always those out there passing bad information around, and those that hear what they want to and ignore all other information. Thankfully the latter forums don't tend to involve animal lives.

I've seen lots of this and yes its frustrating. You can only pound the keys on your keyboard so hard. Try to teach those that want to learn, and try to help those that made bad decisions realize it.

I tend to disappear for a while when I get fed up with "people." But then usually a hedgehog reminds me of why I'm here. All you can do is to try to teach those that are willing to learn and change, and thank those that realize they made a mistake and try to rectify it. Whether that is by changing their care methods, or by giving the hedgehog up. For those that are too hard headed and refuse to listen, I try to wish hedgehog quills to find their way into their undies. I don't think I have that ability, but like to think they get an ouch once in a while .


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Kalandra, panty pokes are the worst!!!!


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## Soyala_Amaya (Aug 1, 2011)

...I have the perfect example of this happening in my life right now, omg. I have a younger cousin who I love who is dating a fairly nice boy. She brought the boy and his whole family to Thanksgiving this year (My family rents out a church every year. We started doing it to have a place for displaced military when the base was active in town, and we just invite all sorts of people anymore.) The boyfriend's sister had been wanting a hedgehog for a long time, so my cousin introduced me to mom. We spent probably about 2 hours with her asking questions and me giving her advice.

They wound up getting the first (yep) hedgehog in January, and while looking around mom saw how much they sell for on craigslist. So she looked around a little bit more and found some jerkhole called Ronster's Monsters. A total and complete exotic animal mill. Chameleons, snakes, birds, chinchillas, sugar gliders, you name it, he breeds it. She saw an ad for him on craigslist that he was currently at the Continental Hotel and had hedgehogs with him.

She showed up, and he had roughly 40 hedgehogs in the backseat of his car in totes (remember, January). She bought three since "they were such a good deal" with plans to start breeding in about four months when they were old enough. Has had one hedgehog for all of three weeks, fml, and going to breed. Swears up and down to me that the guy said he had pedigrees and a license, which she remembered me saying was important...but she literally remembered nothing else.

She had them on hedgehog food (sold by the guy) because he said cat food gives them diabetes. No heat lamp because she thought it made them too hot, a heating pad instead. No wheel. No thermometer. No nothing.

So the first hedgehog managed to escape the other week, she found it in her sock drawer...and then put it back in the tote without going to the vet. It died two days later. 

Last night I get a picture and a frantic message from my cousin about the other girl being sick (boyfriend had gotten ahold of her to contact me, not the mom) I get a picture of a wet hedgehog just taken out of the bath with a massive swollen lump on it's stomach and something protruding from an orifice. I'm terrified it's a prolapsed uterus, and call the mom.

Apparently the day before yesterday the hedgehog had been acting lethargic, and when she looked at it yesterday morning it was just splatted out and not moving. She decided to put it in the tub to soak...for THREE hours. Then she wrapped it in a towel and put it on a heating pad. She kept calling the mass a "sore" and it took me an hour to convince her she needed an emergency vet.

Called around to vets all over town, found one that said they'd take a look, and finally ate a giant bowl of ice cream and went to bed at 1 in the morning. Woke up to a text...and learned that Snow White is actually a boy and the massive swelling was an infected penis. Yes, it was so swollen, distorted, and miscolored, I couldn't tell it was a male from the picture. 

Hedgie got everything washed out and some antibiotics, and has an appointment for today to see a regular vet. 

So spent hours educating this woman, giving her resources, explaining all the things to look out for to get a good breeder and not a byb (don't look on craigslist, good breeders always have deposits, applications, and usually waiting times, then a contract to fill out about the care of the animal.) and she looks at the bybs...and DECIDES TO BECOME ONE, BUYS HEDGEHOGS OUT OF SOME GUYS BACK SEAT, ONE IS DEAD AND ONE IS SEVERELY ILL. 

I'm getting very, very drunk tonight.


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## Sandwich's Mommy (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm sorry but whoever this woman is you speak of, I hope she gets exactly what's coming to her. Poor babies.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Ok, the somewhat bright side, at least from what I'm reading.... She got three, 2 "females" and 1 male. Wanting to breed. Now one of her females will never be able to breed because of an infected penis. 
I'm not saying it's good that one passed or that the other little girls wee-wee went wonky, but this might be an eye opener or at the least, delay the start of her breeding plans.


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## Soyala_Amaya (Aug 1, 2011)

...wow, she just texted me again. Apparently the emergency vet was an IDIOT because Snow just gave birth to three stillborn babies. So...I do know hedgehog anatomy, I didn't think it looked like a penis...but holy shiznits. How do you mistake a baby for a penis?!!!

Oh, no, and she had four, two males and two females. The first female died already, now this one almost died.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Yikes. That is so terrible. I really, REALLY hope she decides not to breed after all of this. 

I wish there was a universal law against animal mills. Puppy mills are the ones that get all the bad press, while the rest just sneak around under the radar. People selling hedgehogs with awful genetics and no concern for their health are just as bad as the ones selling dogs.


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## shinydistraction (Jul 6, 2014)

I just...wow. That's, there's no words. Maybe you should invite this woman over and show her some of the horrifying posts we get here and see if you can talk her out of this. Or maybe put in a quiet call to the USDA if she ignores you and obtains more hedgehogs...


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## octopushedge (Apr 26, 2015)

Didn't we have a fairly sobering hedgehog breeding post kicking around somewhere? I remember it was quite graphic and showed images of half-eaten babies, etc. It should be a must-read for anyone who thinks breeding is just cute babies and fun times.


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## teddythehedgie (Nov 22, 2015)

With regards to the nocturnal aspect of hedgehogs, Teddy spends a great deal of time in my bedroom (week at a time) and I don't have any issue with noise for the most part. The wheel is pretty rhythmic and doesn't bother me too much. But definitely something to consider, that they can run for 6 hours at a time (Teddy certainly does sometimes, sometimes sprinting) and if I wake up in the middle of the night it can feel really loud. 

People definitely need to consider how much noise tolerance they have prior to welcoming a noisy hedgehog that makes 99% of its noise at night, when they want to sleep!


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## Dumble (Feb 22, 2016)

What a sad and horrifying story It is not easy to confront a family member or friend about these issues sometimes and I hope you are able to get the information to her in a way that she will be able to accept and learn from it in order to prevent any more tragedy.


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## Authra (Apr 23, 2015)

I did research for 5 years before I got a hedgehog, I have had 2 from a breeder( the first one got very sick and had to be set to heaven) and 2 rescued ones ( one I just lost last week) 

I take having pets very seriously and I get so mad when people think they can just throw away their pets.


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

Coming back to my venting post...

How is it that people have the money to buy a hedgehog but don't have the money to have the right setting or to upgrade it immediately when the find out they bought the wrong things? Also, the vet thing is killing me!!! Vet insurance in America is only $9 a month, why not getting it? The "don't tell me to take it to the vet because I don't have money but tell me what to do to save him" comments make me mad. 

Also, if you can hardly afford your own things, you have no business owining an animal. They can't wait until you get your next paycheck, if they need vet care, they need it NOW. 
This is my version of screaming into my pillow so I don't "yell" at someone here.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Don't look through previous posts, it gets more frustrating.


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

twobytwopets said:


> Don't look through previous posts, it gets more frustrating.


That's the sad part, I'm not!!!


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## teddythehedgie (Nov 22, 2015)

Unfortunately with vet bills there is only 3 possibilities if you don't take them and they clearly need to. 

1. Your pet gets very sick, more sick the they would have. By the time you decide to take your pet to the vet it's going to cost you a LOT more (think simple URI sniffle to full blown lung infection in your hedgehog). 

2. Your pet gets even more sick and there is nothing to be done. It must be put down which is not free either or you let it suffer and die a miserable death. I've had to put a hedgehog down (no fault of my own, we suspect he had wobby hedgehog syndrome and it was dreadful to watch. For most people it would have been so gut wrenching to watch paralysis ensue that they would not be able to passively sit by and wait for a slow and awful death). 

3. You get super lucky and your pet recovers alone. With serious matters in hedgehogs I don't see that as a likely thing. 

The only reason I got a pet was because I know that if he needed emergency surgery at 3 am that cost $700 it would be completely possible for me. I'm prepared for vet bills. I really wish that people would consider how much money they truly have to spend on vets and then ask if it is fair to an animal if it gets sick and you can't afford to take it. Sure you might get lucky and get a resilient hedgehog who never gets sick. But what if not ...?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Not about hedgies, but I'm dealing with similar frustrations with a friend who bought a snake from a pet store, completely out of the blue. Did no research, no preparation, nothing other than "I want a snake". From what I can tell, the "basics" the store owner sent them home with was a 20L tank, aspen bedding, a decorative log, and a heating pad. That's it. No thermostat, no temp/humidity reader, no WATER BOWL, no hides. They've already had issues keeping him warm because pet store heating pads suck & I have no clue if they've gotten a thermostat yet (probably not because they're expensive and "everything we've read so far didn't mention needing one"). They're buying things little by little as they get money because they can't afford to otherwise, apparently. I suggested they stick to cardboard box hides right now and get humidity & heat figured out first & foremost (I didn't realize they didn't even have a freaking water bowl, are you kidding me??). She completely ignored me and the first money they had was spent on the water bowl, a stupid half log hide (only one, mind you, when they should have at least two, warm side & cool side), and a fake plant, of all things. 

Oh, and now? He's shedding! How do they know? Because he has peeling skin. No, he's not shedding. He tried to shed. The humidity isn't high enough, so he has stuck shed. I suggested soaking him immediately to help get it off & linked sources. "I think I'll just watch him for now, it looks better." NO. SOAK HIM.

Honestly, at this point, I want to drive to Vegas, punch her (repeatedly), and steal the snake.  The next time she messages me about him, I'm probably going to tell her to stop. She doesn't want advice, she doesn't know what she's doing, she just wants to talk to me because "I don't have anyone else to talk about snakes with", and I'm not interested in discussing animals with idiots. :roll: I don't even want to think about what happens if/when that snake eventually needs a vet. Ugh!

(Sorry to sidetrack your ranting thread, I hope you don't mind!! If you couldn't tell, I really needed to let this out somewhere before I explode. :lol


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## teddythehedgie (Nov 22, 2015)

Wow that poor snake. I mean I don't know anything about snakes (which is one reason I don't own any!!!) but you seem to know a lot. I don't understand how people can think "I would like ____ animal" and just BUY IT without stopping and thinking. Especially for a snake... that isn't your standard kitten or dog or hamster... assuming they need way more specialized care!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Honestly, the most annoying thing about it? Snakes are pretty freaking easy once you have their environment right. All they need are the right temperatures (depends on species) with a gradient, the right humidity range, a water bowl, and a couple of hides. Enrichment like climbing structures, cover to hide behind, different substrates, etc. are obviously a huge benefit and should be included. But if you get their enclosure right, they're great! They're easier than any mammal I know of - all pet mammals need some kind of daily care and/or handling. Hamsters? Not as easy as most people assume. Dogs need daily stimulation, exercise, etc. Snakes? Handle once or twice a week, if they're handleable, feed them as needed (usually 1-2 weeks, depending on species, age, size of prey), and they're good to go. People assume they're super difficult because of temperature/humidity needs, but that's honestly not that hard to figure out and they're cake after that. You just have to do the research...which too many people don't.

That said, I think this person & her boyfriend are trying to research, but she won't tell me anything about where or what they're looking up. So I have a strong feeling that they're not finding great information, and certainly not researching as much or what they should considering she had no clue what stuck shed was, or that the snake was shedding before that.


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

Lilysmommy said:


> Not about hedgies, but I'm dealing with similar frustrations with a friend who bought a snake from a pet store, completely out of the blue. Did no research, no preparation, nothing other than "I want a snake". From what I can tell, the "basics" the store owner sent them home with was a 20L tank, aspen bedding, a decorative log, and a heating pad. That's it. No thermostat, no temp/humidity reader, no WATER BOWL, no hides. They've already had issues keeping him warm because pet store heating pads suck & I have no clue if they've gotten a thermostat yet (probably not because they're expensive and "everything we've read so far didn't mention needing one"). They're buying things little by little as they get money because they can't afford to otherwise, apparently. I suggested they stick to cardboard box hides right now and get humidity & heat figured out first & foremost (I didn't realize they didn't even have a freaking water bowl, are you kidding me??). She completely ignored me and the first money they had was spent on the water bowl, a stupid half log hide (only one, mind you, when they should have at least two, warm side & cool side), and a fake plant, of all things.
> 
> Oh, and now? He's shedding! How do they know? Because he has peeling skin. No, he's not shedding. He tried to shed. The humidity isn't high enough, so he has stuck shed. I suggested soaking him immediately to help get it off & linked sources. "I think I'll just watch him for now, it looks better." NO. SOAK HIM.
> 
> ...


Feel free to rant, I think with all the things we read here from pet owners' issues, we can all use a place to vent instead of yelling at them...

I was going to make a comment about snakes and forgot... You get the idiots who get the little cute snakes (not my favorite animal) and when they grow they dump them because it's too big... All the phytons destroying our Everglades... I hate them!!!!

Anyone is welcome to rant in here, it's a public service for animal lovers ?


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Here is a good one. 
Found an ad looking for a home for their tortoise... They didn't have room in their apartment. I contacted them to get more information, they didn't know some of the lesser issues with this species. I can forgive that because it isn't heavily broadcasted and doesn't seem to be an agreed upon thing. But they got this guy with the belt that it would stay small if kept in a small enclosure....
Uhmmm NO. It is a sulcata, 3rd largest tortoise in the world. It's not going to be small no matter what you do. 
No I didn't get this tort, but got ahold of a friend who also has sulcatas who was able to take him in.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Kelsey, is the snake a ball python or something else? Poor thing. I honestly hope they give up soon and rehome the little guy with someone who knows what to do. "It looks better" says your friend. Ha. That is almost never the case. Soak that poor snake before it dies! I'll bet not having a water dish is half the problem. Dehydration is a very scary, very fast, very real thing. Even with North American species that don't need 70% or higher humidity. Living things don't do so well without water. Weird, right? Ugh.

Two, I'm so glad you knew a friend that could take the sulcata. They're really not for everyone. I've wanted one forever (yeah, I know, I've wanted one of everything...) but would never buy one because it's just too cold up here to leave it outside for more than a few months a year, and I'd rather provide a pen and natural sunlight than artificial if possible. So that's never going to happen. But look, I saw a baby one at a show, needed it desperately, went home and did my research and decided against buying one. How crazy, right? I should have bought the thing on a whim from some random doofus who didn't even know what species it was. "Hey, it might be a Russian tortoise, how would I know, I'm only the guy selling it."

Here comes the rant. It's leaking out and I can't stop it! It's been building since Kelsey posted! Sorry in advance. :lol:

A serious problem with periodic spikes in the popularity of exotic animals is that the people selling them never seem to have any idea what they're doing! Being a breeder myself, it's not like the babies just miraculously fall out at random and you can then sell them to idiots who don't know what a stuck shed looks like or how big a sulcata will get. It takes a lot of patience, research, and unfortunately a lot of trial and error to produce babies from your exotics. This means a ton, if not all, of these animals that are being misrepresented when they're sold came from breeders who just plain don't give a ... you know. It seems that when puppy mills finally began to be publicly scrutinized, the "clever" breeders switched to something the general public doesn't believe has feelings. Reptiles, amphibians, small exotic mammals, even fish. And they make an absolute killing off the animals that are shipped off to pet stores and wholesalers (yes there are animal wholesalers). This profit easily makes up for all the dead ones they find. And I can guarantee they find a LOT of dead ones. The scary part? A lot of these guys will sell at the going rate set by real breeders or just under. Real breeders almost never make a profit. I never do and never will, because that money goes to the animals. Then how are these "backyard" guys making money? *Neglect.*

Here's a personal story about breeding to put the animal deaths these people must incur into perspective: I'm a very cautious, very well-read sort of person. I decided to start my hobby breeding stint off with Lygodactylus williamsi. (pro tip: don't start with these!) I heard that they only live on one species of tree in Tanzania, that the area is being deforested rapidly, and yet the government was putting a limit on the number of geckos allowed to be exported yearly, and that number would be low. That export limit is in place now, but there are a ton of smugglers. These animals are *going to go extinct*. So I get myself all the gear imaginable, a handful of young looking wild (and legally) caught geckos, a pair of captive bred geckos (two of the three the lady I bought from had, she isn't breeding anymore), and set them up. I get tons and tons of eggs constantly. My first female died from calcium leeching out of her bones to produce egg shells after her third clutch. I was devastated. So I modified my feeding regime, told people what I found so they could adapt theirs, and carried on. I haven't lost any more adults yet, but I have only had TWO babies reach adulthood in the 4 or 5 years I've been actively breeding them. These animals do not reproduce well in captivity, and the babies hatch out at a centimeter long. They're escape artists. The cages specifically designed for "desktop reptiles" have cable holes that babies can slip through. I lost one and found it minutes later in the adults' cage. I lost another and found it sitting on the top of the enclosure watching me hunt for it with a cute look on it's face. My adult male got out twice, and once made it all the way to my parents' room, where my mom found him in the morning, watching them sleep. They are the cutest, cleverest little demons on the planet. So I, with all my research and mentoring, and years of adjustment to my breeding plan, have only produced two babies. I sold the first, and am keeping the second because I don't trust anyone with her. The most recent one is a female. Females need variable temperatures during incubation to hatch out as female. Stable temperatures mean male. The adults need stable temperatures. Mom glues her eggs down like a boss, so I can't move them. This baby is only female because she incubated during the move to my new home. So basically, reconstructing a habitat these little amazing geckos can thrive in is nearly impossible. It took me years and ignoring the guidelines posted by other unsuccessful breeders. They now thrive in a colony in with my dart frogs. All of the other breeders I trusted when I started have given up. My dart frog mentors have a few colonies but have had the same luck as me. You can imagine what this has done to the price.

tl;dr: breeding teeny weeny geckos is not easy.

So. If I have that much trouble, and then I see someone who mispronounces the gecko's name, or calls it a different species altogether, overprices, and insists that they're a successful breeder, I call bs. I know these geckos have been farmed in an unsafe way to make a fast profit, and the babies that don't make it likely go unnoticed, or they've been smuggled, which is another topic for another rant. (Now that you've seen what happens when I get started, you won't bring that up, will you!?)

If you were as clever as I am or more so (which I don't think most bad breeders are, luckily) you would need a breeding group of 10-15 males and 30-or so females to put out enough babies just to supply each reptile show in Alberta every year. For each female gecko, you get one viable baby, in my experience. Females die, males fight, babies get eaten by everyone, stuck in holes you didn't know existed, drown in their own food, get bullied by tiny fruit flies, escape and get stuck to a stray piece of duct tape on the way back in (I was livid at this one. How did he even do this!?), found in the kitchen downstairs and through a closed door... It takes 6 months for them to get to a sellable size. If a female lays three eggs only two will even hatch. You could acquire a ton of them, pump babies out rapidly, sell the surviving males for $100 and females for $300 each, and make out like a bandit if you didn't care about the animals.

IF YOU PLAN TO BUY AN ANIMAL FROM SOMEONE AND THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE ANIMAL, IT ISN'T HEALTHY AND YOU WILL BE POORLY INFORMED WHEN YOU TAKE THIS ANIMAL HOME. Just don't do it. Find a breeder. Find a forum. Even an outdated website made by a child is better than what a lot of these dealers will tell you to make a sale. These people are out for money and they don't care about you or your animal. If they tell you it was "vet checked", demand proof. If they're honest, they'll have it handy. Seen those documentaries about puppy mills? Yeah, picture that every time you want a new pet, only with the animal you want in place of the diseased puppies. I can assure you that place you're imagining exists, and if you buy from a turd, you're getting one of those animals.

If we all stop buying from them they'll stop existing. Marshall's won't have a monopoly on ferrets anymore. Snakes won't come home with mites and eating disorders. _Everything_ will live longer. Wobbly hedgehog syndrome could easily be eliminated. But unfortunately for us, our empathy and love for sad, wounded, or cute creatures often overrides our better judgement. Do yourself a favor, and don't let it anymore. Buy a healthy animal from a decent person. The breeder will love you for it and you'll have a better time with your new friend.

Yes, I have bought one too many animals from horrible people. My parents didn't really get that it was a thing when I was a kid. I had a baby mouse die from a miscarriage when no males were around, a cuban anole have make up on its face to hide the scale rot, several budgies die way before their expected lifespan, a ball python that had never eaten until I got it home, and guinea pigs with health defects. I'm done with pet store quality animals, and you should be too.

*get off soapbox* *exhale* *stagger back to the couch* Nothing to see here...


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

No, it's a red tail boa, he's only a year old. I'm positive they got him because he's pretty.  He does have a water dish now, but he didn't have one for almost a whole freaking week!! They haven't taken any close enough pictures to show whether he's dehydrated or not...but I bet he was even if he isn't now. Oh, and by the way...this person didn't even know what freaking SPECIES of snake she was bringing home until they went back to pick him up. I almost threw my laptop when I read that.

I'm glad someone knowledgeable is getting that sulcata!! I helped find a home for one that was brought to Wildside, someone found him outside in the middle of nowhere. He was a total sweetheart and I wish I could've kept him, but I wouldn't have been able to provide proper care, or any guarantee of keeping him for his looooong lifespan.

I love your entire rant, and completely agree. My family didn't go through pet stores, but we didn't do any better - our budgies and our ****er spaniel were from backyard breeders. I actually found the dog's "certificate" in our lockbox at home this past weekend. AKC certified!!! ...And the dogs were all in a small trailer with the floor completely covered in poop and horrible conditions in general. My sister almost had my mom convinced to take two, just to get them out of there. But it doesn't solve the problem.  

People like to think they're rescuing an animal from a pet store. It's not rescue. You're paying for the animal, you're paying for the treatment that animal received. And you're paying to put another animal in the same place with the same treatment. You can try to justify it all you want. It's still not rescue. You're still not helping the problem, you're feeding it. It's hard to walk past them, it seriously is. I caved once and got Shelob, my big hermit crab. I don't let myself handle the hermit crabs anymore, or even stop near them. It hurts to walk past them & know they're all extremely likely to be dead in 6 months or less. But I can't save them all, and it won't help stop stores from bringing more in from the wild. Shelob reminds me not to fall into temptation again - she's very, very shy and I know it's because not that long ago, she was free on the beach. And I can't even imagine what she went through when she was captured, packed up, and shipped.

Ugh. I need to stop before I keep going and end up late for work!!!


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## octopushedge (Apr 26, 2015)

Oh god, these stories are horrible 

The snake one kills me because I just went through a "I really want a snake!" phase. But as you guys all know, I came here for help with research and then decided I'm not able to commit to a decade of care right now. Even though I was drawing snakes in my notebooks every day and talking to a friend about how great his corn snake is, I was still able to hold off.

I just don't understand how people can impulse buy a living creature. I'm bipolar and during manic phases money burns a hole in my pocket, but even then I don't pick up every animal I want! It's just a matter of caring enough to have the self-control. With the internet it's so easy to do the proper research and know exactly what you're in for, but people just can't be bothered. Ugh. We see it so much with hedgehogs here, but I didn't realize it extended all the way to "ugly" reptiles too!


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

I think I opened a pandora box... But I guess we all need a space to vent so we don't yell at idiots. 

What Kelsey said is so true; I went to a little pet store looking for the CHE bulb and I started talking to the owner and told him I was getting a hedgehog, he said they used to sell them but not anymore, I asked why and he said the last one they had was in the store for 8 months so it was not worth for them to keep selling them. 

So it does work, you don't "rescue" animals from pet stores, then they see no profit and stop selling them, but when you "rescue", you are telling them, there is profit in this animals so let's keep selling them no matter how mistreated they get here $$$


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Oh no. I was seriously hoping it was a corn snake. That boa is going to have an awful life. They can get 10 feet and heavy. That 20 gallon isn't going to work for long...

Natascha, I'm sad that you've decided you can't get a snake yet but I'm so proud of you at the same time! It can be crazy hard to admit to yourself that you can't have something you desperately want because of future circumstances. You are my hero!

The internet is an amazing resource for pet owners. I can't believe how many people don't at least google something first. I get caught searching fish and corals at the fish store all the time, and I'm just mildly curious.

My personal least favorite thing bad pet owners do is not even learn their dog's breed. Golden lab. Oh it's a mix? No. It's a golden lab. Boarder collie. Lassie dog. Ewok. Mad Max dog. Caulker spaniel. Air bud dog. I will punch you right in your ignorant facehole >_<. Sure, if you can't tell me which subspecies of Lampropeltis your kingsnake is, that's cool. But when you tell me incorrectly what purebred dog that is standing beside you, I'm just done.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

When I go into the pet store I have to have blinders on. The only animal I'll admit to having to any pet store employee is my dogs and birds. I tell them I have a cat, I don't. Random lizard, I don't. Basically if I can buy the same supplies for something else, then I'll tell them it's something common like a bearded dragon. I don't think they need to know what someone has because that easily puts the thought in their head that there is a demand for them. Do they need to believe that there is a local demand for hedgehogs or sulcatas??? Nope. 
I'm not going to lie, it's really hard sometimes to not want to "save" them. Fortunately they don't carry the animals I want, like ornate box turtles.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yeah, ranting here isn't going to stop me. I'm going to go off on her eventually unless they rehome the snake soon. It's inevitable at this point, especially bc I can't even help since she won't listen to me anyway. And I know, Ashley, my heart just sank when I saw the first picture of the snake. I knew they get big and the owners /say/ they know that, but. I don't think they really get it, especially the cost of large enclosures.

That's a good idea, Two. I never thought about that because I like talking about my animals so much. :lol: I also usually manage to confuse and scare people off because I start talking about all of the bad things! But that won't necessarily work on pet stores, I guess.


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

When I was looking for the CHE some I went to petco or persmart and was asked what animal for and I said a hedgehog and I was told conspirator doesn't allow the sell of hedgehogs because they are not native to the area... And they were selling ferrets... I said "ah ok" and moved on.


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## octopushedge (Apr 26, 2015)

The one that's starting to get me is my neighbour that I petsit for. He regularly travels for vacation and work, and he keeps insisting on owning huskies (who are notorious for requiring structure and bonding, being very high energy). I've been taking care of this dog literally half of the time he's owned it, and it just seems so unfair to the dog. He has other animals as well, but I don't really worry about them as much because they're not the bonding types. The husky is now starting to show signs of boredom (getting destructive) two weeks into my four week stint here and I feel bad because no matter what I do I can't replace the owner! There's only so many toys you can buy and walks you can take to keep the dog occupied in a day. Thankfully I'm quitting this upcoming summer so I can have a guilt free conscience, though I don't know how anyone is going to manage this dog as well as I have...


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

That poor dog. I just can't comprehend why people don't at least do a quick google search before they buy a living creature. So many people buy them as status symbols and something to show off to the ladies. And then neglect them severely. 

I used to watch a show on youtube about animal services teams in various sections of the states. So many calls resulted in the employee removing a collar that had been put on a puppy and as the dog grew up alone chained in the back yard the collar embedded into its throat flesh. How does that even happen!? Aaaaagh. I check all my pets over at least weekly for lumps or bumps. How do you let a dog's skin grow around a collar!?


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Here's a playlist of episodes if anyone is interested in the show: 




It is graphic and it is terrible and it makes me very angry, but I'm so glad these people are so dedicated to their jobs.


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

I'm bringing the venting post back! Who wants to go first?


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## Dexter<3 (May 17, 2016)

It's just really sad to read about people who won't take their animals to the vet because they claim it's too far or too expensive. Honestly, they're suffering! How could you not do anything for them?! 

Pets are expensive. All of them. When I got Dexter 4 years ago, I signed a written contract and told Dexter himself that I would do anything I could to give him a great life. And that meant over $2200 the last 2 months of his life in emergency visits, sometimes at midnight, antibiotics and pain meds twice a day via syringe, and my fiancé and I alternating working from home. It was tough but he was really happy right until the end. 

If people did any research on hedgehogs, they would know they're very prone to illnesses, particularly cancer. You can pretend your pet is invincible all you want, but if your baby doesn't pass away from neglect (Iike an untreated infection), then cancer is a real and costly threat. And it's not like a cat where you have 15 years before you have to think about!

The uncertainty with food, heating, accessories, yeah ok some of it I get. Recommendations change all the time. But health is so rudimentary. How could you get an animal and not have anyone within a 200 mile radius that can take care of it? Would you raise a child where the closest doctor was nearly 4 hours away? 

My mother used to be a vet. The stories she would tell me were awful... Some people are really terrible. When I posted about my new tiny hedgehog (Kratos), I mentioned an uncaring woman who didn't even have home for her new baby girl (said she was gonna keep it in the shoe box for a few days). I've been really worried about that poor hedgehog ever since. Poor little guys


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

People giving wrong advise putting hedgies in danger, even after they have been called out.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Artemis-Ichiro said:


> People giving wrong advise putting hedgies in danger, even after they have been called out.


That one I think I'm immune to anymore. It comes in waves. We had one earlier that got called out numerous times on the same bad info but continued giving it. It wasn't just bad husbandry info, it was regarding heat. 
One that will come before long is the summer hibernations. Or the ones that get a hedgehog in early summer/late spring and come fall have no heat system and can't afford it. Now, I'm not going to pretend I know or understand another person's situation, but a little planning ahead can go a long way. 
Within the next few months there will probably be an increase in the my hedgehog hates me topics, because they were a gift or didn't research hedgies and no one bothered to tell them what is normal. 
I'll just be happy if some of the I planned on breeding and was told this information months ago but did it my way posts slow down. How many times do we need to mention a mentor?


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## ROBYNREECE (Apr 29, 2016)

In my instance they were an impulse buy and although we asked many many questions the pet shop gave us very very wrong information.


We were under the impression that they were easy animals with very little work needed.


It was only when I started looking into it (after paying the deposit) that I realised what we had gotten ourselves into.


We had to spend ALLOT more money on them then what we had expected which we really couldn't afford but as we had gone ahead with this we knew we had to bite the bullet and just buy what was needed.


Thank goodness for this site as I can guarentee that our hedgies would not last if I had not come on here and received the advice and information that I have.


Like my husband says, it is school fees for us, we have learnt from this experience.


We got our Hedgies yesterday and we are all very excited and I will be on here all the time to make sure we are doing everything right.


I wish pet shops weren't allowed to sell exotic pets unless they are actually exotic pet stores to begin with.


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## Zhade18 (Nov 20, 2015)

I agree with you! Before I purchased my hedgie I did weeks/months of research, I even read a PDF book from a woman that taught me A LOT! I went to repticon yesterday And almost bought a sugar glider but I wanted to go home and do a lot more research before I purchased one. I get mad when people don't even know what anointing is, like come on! Do your research!! Especially on an exotic pet!!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Definitely do the research on sugar gliders! I did research on them in the past due to an acquaintance planning to get them (that I wasn't convinced could handle them, particularly once I started reading). Way more work than a hedgehog!!

I wish the same, Robyn. Though honestly, I really wish pet stores wouldn't sell animals period, no matter what they are. Most stores don't have correct information to some degree on any animal they sell. And probably at least half of the supplies and stuff sold in pet stores is useless or even hazardous to the animals they're sold for. It's ridiculous.


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