# Water dish???



## AllQuills

I've read that baby hedgehogs can drown in a water dish...but Juni wasn't getting enough water from her water bottle, so how would I keep the water dish in the cage and prevent hoglets from drowning?


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## Nancy

What hoglets?


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## lilhoglet

Unless you mean baby hedgehog as in a hedgehog that has just been born I don't see how it could drown (unless its a really big bowl)

Has your hedgehog just birthed a litter?


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## AllQuills

Yes, I meant baby hedgehogs, and there are no hoglets, but I'm planning on breeding Juniper in the future so I'm wondering what I would do about the water dish thing. Do you know?


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## LizardGirl

How long have you had Juniper? IMO you should have at the *very* least 2 years of interactive experience before you should even consider breeding.

That's just my opinion, breeding is a huge responsibility. Some people will jump in on impulse, and things can go wrong.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

I don't understand HOW she could not be getting enough water from her water bottle??

All my hedgies use water bottles. The water stays CLEAN because they can't pee or poop in it, and it never gets litter or shavings in it. If her water bottle is running out of water, then you need to purchase a larger bottle. I buy the 24 oz size, like the guinea pigs use.


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## AllQuills

LizardGirl said:


> How long have you had Juniper? IMO you should have at the *very* least 2 years of interactive experience before you should even consider breeding.
> 
> That's just my opinion, breeding is a huge responsibility. Some people will jump in on impulse, and things can go wrong.


It IS a huge responsibility, and I know this. This isn't an impluse, I've done lots of research on breeding and I'm prepared for the things that can go wrong.


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## AllQuills

PixiesExoticHedgies said:


> I don't understand HOW she could not be getting enough water from her water bottle??
> 
> All my hedgies use water bottles. The water stays CLEAN because they can't pee or poop in it, and it never gets litter or shavings in it. If her water bottle is running out of water, then you need to purchase a larger bottle. I buy the 24 oz size, like the guinea pigs use.


She was biting it and couldn't figure out how to use it. I've heard good things about water dishes, too, such as they can get more water and their necks are in a more natural postition. Also, I've heard that hedgehogs can chip their teeth and get their tongues stuck in water bottles. I've decided to use water dishes.


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## nikki

alot of hedgehogs will drink alot more if given a dish instead of a bowl. I have all 9 of mine on bowls and other than the occasional piece of shavings or food, they don't put anything in them. As long as the water bowl is kept a bit away from the food dish they rarely poop or pee in them.

Allquils: you're right about what you said about bottles


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## AllQuills

nikki said:


> alot of hedgehogs will drink alot more if given a dish instead of a bowl. I have all 9 of mine on bowls and other than the occasional piece of shavings or food, they don't put anything in them. As long as the water bowl is kept a bit away from the food dish they rarely poop or pee in them.


Ditto.


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## Nancy

Are you prepared to spend a thousand dollars or more to save Juni's life if there are complications. I guess I should ask if your parents are prepared to do that? How will you feel if Juni dies because your parents won't spend $1000 or $1500 on emergency vet bills. 

How are you going to feel picking up baby body parts if she decides to kill the babies. How will you feel if Juni hemorrhages and bleeds out and dies in your hands. These things do happen and what if it happens to Juni. I've lost a mom and I still think about her and wonder if I'd been just a bit more experienced if I might have recognized that something was wrong soon enough to save her life. I vowed after she died that I would quit breeding but I had a very large support group of experienced breeders who helped me through it and convinced me to continue. I'm questioning it again now because I have a girl who got ill after breeding. Thankfully she is not pregnant and seems to be doing better with antibiotic but she isn't totally well yet. 

I'm not trying to be mean but you are very young and have not owned a hedgehog long enough or have enough knowledge or experience to be ready to breed. You're still asking new owner questions and at your age you should be enjoying her as a pet not risking her life by breeding her.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Yes, I've seen some of my youngsters biting at the water bottle. But, they don't typically do it for very long. Going from sucking on mom's nipples, to licking a water bottle is a learning process for them. Once they get the hang of it, then they should be able to get just as much water from a bottle, as they can from a dish. As far as the natural position drinking out of a dish......we humans don't pour our soda or drinks into a dish for lapping. We tilt our heads back and drink from the soda bottle or cup. Again, this is just my opinion, and I'm not saying that water dishes are improper.

Pixie


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## nikki

Not to be argumentative, but how would you explain the hedgies whose water intake doubles, or more, when given a water dish? Water bottles work great for rodents, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits etc, but hedgies have a totally different type of teeth and a different shaped tongue than rodents, and their teeth don't grow back if chipped on a bottle. Hedgies have teeth more like a cat than a rodent..and cats wouldn't do good on water bottles either. A hedgehogs spine in designed to curve inwards, for balling up, not backwards as they do with a water bottle. Xrays show that when using a water bottle they actually have to hyper extend their spine...like a human trying to drink with there head as far back as then can, looking up. This position makes it difficult for the epiglotis to close and prevent aspiration of water. Try it sometime.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Again, it's YOUR personal preference. I don't know that there is a right way or a wrong way to give your hedgie water. But, your hedgie will not die nor get sick, for lack of water or dehydration, just because you are using a water bottle. 

I just prefer the bottles myself. I hang their bottles low enough, so that all they have to do is stick out their tongue and lick. Thus, they don't turn their necks up to drink.

P.S. As far as our cat.....we have water bowls and water bottles (hanging on our kennel doors), and my cat prefers to drink from the water bottle any day.


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## AllQuills

So no one knows??


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## nikki

so no one knows what?


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## AllQuills

nikki said:


> so no one knows what?


The answer to the original question, "Could a baby hedgie drown in a water dish and if so, how can I prevent this?"


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## nikki

I have never had it happen, or heard of it happening..but anything is possible


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

AllQuills said:


> LizardGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> How long have you had Juniper? IMO you should have at the *very* least 2 years of interactive experience before you should even consider breeding.That's just my opinion, breeding is a huge responsibility. Some people will jump in on impulse, and things can go wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> It IS a huge responsibility, and I know this. This isn't an impluse, I've done lots of research on breeding and I'm prepared for the things that can go wrong.
Click to expand...

*I've looked at your website and you state the following:*



> Remember, breeding should only be done after careful research. This list is only a small part of the research you must do if you intend to breed your hedgehogs. I am planning to breed Juni with my friend's hedgehog in October 08....... Juni was from K*** K*** pet shop, in NY...... She's getting ready to be a mom. Bristles is a snowflake hedgehog and will hopefully breed with Juniper sometime in October.


It has been HIGHLY advised by several members on HHC that you NOT breed Juni. You simply don't have the experience and knowledge right now. Based on the 'list' you have posted on your site....the points you mention are just the tip of the ice berg.

Several things you SHOULD consider (if you intend to be a reputable breeder and follow the Breeders Code of Etics).....Juni came from a pet store, she apparantly (?) is not registered with the IHR, and apparantly (?) does not have a pedigree. These are 3 of the top reasons NOT to breed her.

Please reconsider and do NOT breed Juni. Keep her as your PET and enjoy her for a couple years. Then when you have more knowledge and experience, purchase yourself a good breeding quality hedgehog. AllQuills, it's great that you are reading, asking questions, and doing research. But, breeding takes a lot more than that.

Pixie


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## Nancy

I agree with everything Pixie has said. If you had truly done enough research and are knowledgeable, responsible and mature enough to start breeding, you would absolutely not even consider breeding a pet store hedgehog with no lineage. 

Whose going to foot the vet bills? Do you expect your parents to? Are they fully on board with this and realize that one emergency vet bill could be over $1000? Don't think things don't happen. My first girl ended up delivering 7 premature dead babies and had a severe uterine infection but was so weak from blood loss we knew she would not survive the surgery. For over a week, every 2 hours round the clock I syringe fed her and medicated her and willed her to survive and get strong enough for surgery. Every time I walked in the room, I expected to find she had passed. She was so weak, swallowing a mouthful or two took all the strength she had. Every other day we were in at the vet getting her subq'd and checked over. Finally she gained a bit of strength but was also at the point that she had to be spayed because the infection was not getting any better. Thankfully she survived the surgery but my first venture into breeding very quickly added up to almost $1000. 

To be recognized as a responsible breeder takes time and it's even more difficult for young people to be respected. Do you want to be known as the stupid kid who bred the petstore hedgie or would you rather have people look at you as being intelligent and responsible in your choices? 

Just the fact that your thinking of breeding Juni shows you are more interested in having babies than doing whats best for Juni and future generations of hedgehogs. 

There are enough backyard breeders. Do you really want to become another one?


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Nancy said:


> I agree with everything Pixie has said. If you had truly done enough research and are knowledgeable, responsible and mature enough to start breeding, you would absolutely not even consider breeding a pet store hedgehog with no lineage. Just the fact that your thinking of breeding Juni shows you are more interested in having babies than doing whats best for Juni and future generations of hedgehogs.


*Ditto.*


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## Luck

Ditto.And to think this all started with a water dish question.


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## Luck

Ditto.And to think this all started with a water dish question.


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## Nancy

Well she bred her despite all we said against it.

http://www.freewebs.com/hogblog/blog.htm


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## drowsydreamer

Does it actually say she was bred, or just "getting ready to be a mom"...there could be a difference.


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## Melissa

I have read your site Lydia, and just wanted to point out that most of your information on breeding is incorrect. Since you have already bred Juni, I hope you have not chosen to take your own advice on breeding and hoglet raising. You need to do a LOT more reasearch. 

Back yard breeding is so unethical and so is breeding a hedgie with unknown lines. Let alone two hedgies.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Nancy said:


> *Well she bred her (Juni) despite all we said against it. *
> http://www.freewebs.com/hogblog/blog.htm


You have got to be kidding?! 
How did you find this out? 
PM me, if you prefer.


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## Nancy

I've had many people pm, im, and email me to point it out.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

That's a real shame! It's too bad she was NOT responsible and ethical enough to care about breeding to IMPROVE the hedgehog population.....much less doing what is in the best interest of her OWN hedgie. 

She PM me, asking permission to use photos from MY site. I refused, but told her that she could post LINKS so that people reading her site would be able to get correct information and details.... than what she currently has posted. As pointed out by others, the information she has, is incorrect and incomplete. 

Lydia, what's done, is done. I can only hope these babies don't have any health issues that you'll need to deal with. I hope that you will learn from your this experience and that you won't breed her again. You've already shown that you don't give a hoot about what the people on HHC have tried to tell you. Thus, I expect that you will continue to 'do as you please'. 

I hope you realize that you have now been publically marked as an irresponsible breeder, and everyone whom reads the HHC will be aware of your unethical breeding practices. Since you're also an approved RESCUE for the Hedgehog Welfare Society, I suspect they would be interested in hearing about this as well. My fear is that you will eventually take in rescues and start breeding them too.  

Pixie


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## nikki

this is sad to see, I was just at her blog, reading what she has under "breeding" she has that at 8 weeks the male and female babies need to be seperated...to bad they can breed at 6 weeks.


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## Melissa

nikki said:


> this is sad to see, I was just at her blog, reading what she has under "breeding" she has that at 8 weeks the male and female babies need to be seperated...to bad they can breed at 6 weeks.


There are several things wrong on her site that people have already contacted her about. Not just the breeding part. Even though she posts that she would like people to tell her she is missing information, she refuses to correct the wrong information when people tell her what is wrong.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Aren't these the kind of questions that you would want your breeder to already know? She states on her website that, "you should do lots of research...." -- in my opinion, she's NOT done her own.

:?: *What's the point of registering your hedgie with the IHR? Is their a benefit or is it just to get him/her into the system and to support the IHR? *

:?: *I've read that baby hedgehogs can drown in a water dish, so how would I keep the water dish in the cage and prevent hoglets from drowning?*

:?: *I know that hedgehogs can sometimes be made to change their sleep schedule so that they're awake during the day and sleep at night.* _Since you've got a proven track record of not listening to your fellow HHC members, I surely hope that your are NOT attemting this!_

 *Poor Juniper!*


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## Melissa

PixiesExoticHedgies said:


> *Poor Juniper!*


And poor future babies.


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## Nancy

I was thinking about this situation after going to bed last night and feeling sick that here we have another backyard breeder with minimal knowledge and experience. Then I realized that we are putting all the blame on a child, and children cannot be relied upon to make responsible, intelligent decisions on their own without proper guidance from parents. Obviously there is a severe lack of responsibility on the part of her parents. 

So instead of getting angry with Lydia, I think we need to help her and guide her because obviously she's has no responsible parental involvement in what she is allowed to do.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Nancy said:


> ....we are putting all the blame on a child, and children cannot be relied upon to make responsible, intelligent decisions on their own without proper guidance from parents. So instead of getting angry with Lydia, I think we need to help her and guide her....


I have an 11 year old, and I agree with you 100%. However, you can't help and guide a child that will not follow directions when given. Lydia ask questions, but turns around and does the opposite of what has been advised. 


Melissa said:


> There are several things wrong on her site that people have already contacted her about. Not just the breeding part. Even though she posts that she would like people to tell her she is missing information, she refuses to correct the wrong information when people tell her what is wrong.


I'm not angry at Lydia. I am upset with the choice she made to breed Juni, after everyone highly advised against it. The breeding is done and over with now. Thus, we need to be here to answer questions and help her, should any problems arise. But, in the best interest of Juni and future hedgehog generations, she's going to have to respect the replies she gets and start following directions.


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## Melissa

I can understand helping her. But the problem is when she asks for advice she *wont* take it. We have all given her advice. On this site and others and she will ignore what she wants and do what she wants.


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## iamdbf

I have not read much of the post, cuz my time on the comp is limited, so this may have been said, but i will say it, have a really big water dish, but just make it shallow, so they won't drown.


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## Nancy

Melissa said:


> I can understand helping her. But the problem is when she asks for advice she *wont* take it. We have all given her advice. On this site and others and she will ignore what she wants and do what she wants.


You are absolutely right. She doesn't listen. Kids don't listen but this is why parents need to be responsible and be parents so the child learns how to make intelligent responsible choices. Giving free reign on the internet and allowing a 12 year old to do as they want, rather than doing the responsible thing, teaches the child nothing.


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## Luck

I think she has started ignoring this thread. :x But I hope she hasn't cuz this is stuff she needs to kno :!:


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## iamdbf

I disagree with one thing. "Giving free reign on the internet and allowing a 12 year old to do as they want, rather than doing the responsible thing, teaches the child nothing."
she may just be an irresponsible person, but having just turned 14, i think that 12 year olds should have free-reign of the internet. Besides, what responsibility will you learn from a not-free-reign of the internet. I agree that she should listen to the advice, but what internet thing if she didn't have it would have given her responsibility???


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## LizardGirl

I feel really sorry for poor Juni. She's from a petstore with unknown lineage and being bred for her owners entertainment...  She appears to have a good personality so it would be a shame to see her die of complications because of this.


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## Nancy

Well of course a child is going to think children should have free reign of the internet. No surprise there. :lol: Most responsible parents and adults don't quite have the same viewpoint. They like to know what their children are doing on the internet.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Just wanted to let the concerned HHC members know that the Hedgehog Welfare Society is aware of these situations with Lydia. The HWS has also contacted her mother and are they in the process of addressing these issues. In the best interest of the hedgehogs, I hope they are able to get through to Lydia. 

Pixie


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## Gnarly

PixiesExoticHedgies said:


> Just wanted to let the concerned HHC members know that the Hedgehog Welfare Society is aware of these situations with Lydia. The HWS has also contacted her mother and are they in the process of addressing these issues. In the best interest of the hedgehogs, I hope they are able to get through to Lydia.
> 
> Pixie


I'm glad they are speaking to her mother.


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## sebian

PixiesExoticHedgies said:


> Just wanted to let the concerned HHC members know that the Hedgehog Welfare Society is aware of these situations with Lydia. The HWS has also contacted her mother and are they in the process of addressing these issues. In the best interest of the hedgehogs, I hope they are able to get through to Lydia.


I'm glad someone let them know! I hope that this whole ordeal is a huge lesson for everyone, too.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

It's unfortunate this had to happen. With all the signs I was seeing, that she fully intended to do exactly what SHE wanted, no matter what we said and no matter that it was not in the best interest of the hedgehogs......I felt obligated to contact the HWS. At this point, I had become concerned not only for Juni, but for any possible rescues that she might attempt to breed.

I'm not angry with Lydia, I'm very concerned for her. As a mother, I know it's going to be tough for her to get through this situation. She's probably embarressed and I'm sure she's very upset with me.

Lydia, I would like you to know that I have high hopes you will emerge more mature with life lessons learned, and hope that you will return to HHC ready to help and assist others whom might find themselves in a similar situation. I suspect when this is all over and behind you, that you will make better decisions for Juni. In addition, I'm sure the knowledge and lessons learned will also make you a better breeder in the future.

Please feel free to contact me directly for assistance or questions. 
I'm here to help you, anytime!

Pixie


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## Nancy

Pixie, whatever comes of this, I'm just about certain you weren't the only one whose made complaints. I've been expressing my concern for while now and I'm certain from all the im's, pm's and emails I've received, there are many others that have done the same. 

Life is one great big learning experience for everyone and this is just part of it for Lydia.


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## lilhoglet

She may be angry/embarrassed now, but in time she will (hopefully) understand. I do too feel that her parents should have been paying more attention. I think most of the time unfortunately parents view pets such as cats and dogs completely different from a small animal. Majority of parents would never consider having their child breed a dog or a cat... a small animal however... Who cares right? I think the parental problems go far beyond that here, but it's an observation I've made. I really wish people would wake up and realize that they are living beings too. It is cruel to play god with animals for our own enjoyment. Breeding comes with responsibility and as a child she does not seem in any way ready for that. I blame the parents more than her. A lot of children feel like they can do whatever they set their minds too; that they are ready for the challenge and ultimately it is the parents' job to guide that child. 

I'm glad that her mother was contacted. On the website it said that Juni was getting ready to be a mom, but did it say she was actually bred? I'm assuming everyone has more information than I do. Whatever the case I hope Juni is okay.


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## LizardGirl

I read on her webpage that she was to be bred in October with a friend's hedgie, but I have not seen her post that the breeding had taken place. 

*crosses fingers in hopes that she won't conceive*


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## lilhoglet

LizardGirl said:


> I read on her webpage that she was to be bred in October with a friend's hedgie, but I have not seen her post that the breeding had taken place.
> 
> *crosses fingers in hopes that she won't conceive*


Thats what I was thinking too. She has said that she plans to breed Juni and that Juni is getting ready to be a mom, but I haven't seen her say that she has actually done the act. I'm hoping she hasn't!


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## Nancy

Saying that Juni is getting ready to be a mom implies that she has already been bred. She also states somewhere on her website that she is a breeder. You aren't a breeder until you've bred. That's where the assumptions are coming from.


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## LizardGirl

That is true, the heading of her blog states she is a breeder.


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## lilhoglet

Sorry I didn't notice the header on her site until it was just pointed out.


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## iamdbf

Nancy said:


> Well of course a child is going to think children should have free reign of the internet. No surprise there. :lol: Most responsible parents and adults don't quite have the same viewpoint. They like to know what their children are doing on the internet.


I could as easily say "of course an adult is goin to think children should not have free reign." the children who are doing things they shouldn't do, which is mostly ended up talking to someone who is secretly a petifile and agreeing to meet them, are dip _ _ _ _ _ s. Honestly, if you say yes to some random person going "lets meet at the park", then you are clueless on life and probably don't have parents who pay attention to you so they can talk to you so you know better. As for internet stuff that gives viruses or kinda downloading things they shouldn't, that just takes simple instruction, and maybe basic security.
Not free reign sucks! i have a friend, actually my best friend, who doesn't have it. He can only go on youtube and compony websites. no gaming websites! he was on neopets till he was 13 cuz of that!!!Kinda sad, don't u think??? also, When i had not free reign, so many images and websites( literally most actually) on google that i knew were okay, could not be viewed.
Besides (i know i will be disagreed with here) many guys do things that are natural... i will go no further. 
I think free reign is the right way to go, so long as parents pay some attention.
lets forget this whole argument. k?


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## sagesmommy

all of my internet access was restricted until 15


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## lilhoglet

iamdbf,
...I think parents should pay attention to what kids do on the internet, because of what you said... there are some younger people who do agree to meet people who they do not know, or do things that seem harmless that really aren't. It is good that you seem to know better than that. I turn 18 in three minutes, making me young and yet the difference between being 13 and 18 are gigantic. When you get older you have a different perspective! You'll understand soon enough what Nancy meant. I wish I could go back to simple pre-teen days!! So much so that I started playing neopets 3 weeks ago  I used to love it back in the day!

..hahaha yay! It's officially my 18th birthday!


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## LizardGirl

Happy Birthday! LOL


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## Gnarly

Happy Birthday!!


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## lilhoglet

Thanks, guys


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## Nancy

Happy Birthday. Hope you have a great day.


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## lilhoglet

Thanks  I did!


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## iamdbf

lilhoglet said:


> iamdbf,
> ...I think parents should pay attention to what kids do on the internet, because of what you said... there are some younger people who do agree to meet people who they do not know, or do things that seem harmless that really aren't. It is good that you seem to know better than that. I turn 18 in three minutes, making me young and yet the difference between being 13 and 18 are gigantic. When you get older you have a different perspective! You'll understand soon enough what Nancy meant. I wish I could go back to simple pre-teen days!! So much so that I started playing neopets 3 weeks ago  I used to love it back in the day!
> 
> ..hahaha yay! It's officially my 18th birthday!


Happy birthday!

I think that the parents should only give unfull reign if the kid has no common sense. I know what nacy meant, i just disagree. Whatever.


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## numothehedgehog

reason one why she shouldnt breed. Thats a perfectly SAFE you have for your beloved juniper.. :x 
reason two. She is using shavings.
reason three. She lives in a flipping aquarium!
Wow this kid really needs to learn about the basic hedgehog care nevermind breeding


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## h_EDGE_hog

I watched that video, thanks for the link numo.

I feel bad for Juni, i just hope everything goes well with the babies. And she doesnt breed them. guess we just have to hope for the best.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

Her youtube account states that she is 37 years old. 
When in fact, she is a 12 year old child.


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## Tristen

Does that aquarium seem a bit small to anyone else?

In that Hedgehog Care Video, she says they need nail trims every few months and baths about as often too... I bathe Pokey every 3 weeks as well as trim his nails,not even mentioning the biweekly(sometimes more) foot baths. Other little bits seem misleading or way too general too.

I'm sure she loves her hedgie but I honestly think she should do a little more research and listen more readily to everyones advice, and I really don't see her in a position to be giving advice at this point in time.


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## lilhoglet

... did anyone see the video where she wraps her hedgie in a towel... unwraps... and then wraps again, just for... idk, fun?

she isn't wrapping her tightly but its just the fact that towels have loops that can seriously hurt a hedgies foot/leg. 

::sighs::


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## Melissa

I have posted serveral replies to her videos correcting her information and then asking her to correct it and she deletes them. IMHO This whole situation is a very sad one.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

> http://www.freewebs.com/hogblog/blog.htm


Her website has been deleted......


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## Melissa

Probably because people were posting really nasty things on there. She will probably just get a new URL then not tell anybody.


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

numothehedgehog said:


> reason why she shouldnt breed. She is using shavings.


Many breeders use shavings for the mom to raise their babies. Even breeders that normally use liners, will often switch the mother over to shavings before the litter is born. When a mother has babies, you cannot change the liners as needed. A cage with shavings will usually last through the entire weaning process.


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## Nancy

PixiesExoticHedgies said:


> numothehedgehog said:
> 
> 
> 
> reason why she shouldnt breed. She is using shavings.
> 
> 
> 
> Many breeders use shavings for the mom to raise their babies. Even breeders that normally use liners, will often switch the mother over to shavings before the litter is born. When a mother has babies, you cannot change the liners as needed. A cage with shavings will usually last through the entire weaning process.
Click to expand...

Exactly, I breed and I use kiln dried pine shavings that are laid out in a large bin to thoroughly air out before use. I can't use aspen as it causes asthma attacks. I don't like carefresh as it is dusty and can cause impaction if they eat it. Many breeders use shavings. I don't agree with using shavings in an aquarium or for everyday use. There are much better alternatives, such as liners.


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## LizardGirl

On her youtube account it is set so only 5 star ratings show... which make her videos look like everyone loves them from a quick glance. :x


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## Melissa

Nancy said:


> Exactly, I breed and I use kiln dried pine shavings that are laid out in a large bin to thoroughly air out before use. I can't use aspen as it causes asthma attacks.


Maybe this is the reason Im having such a hard time breathing right now.

The store I went to just opened up and they had pine shazvings but it didnt say "kiln dried" So I was scared to buy it. But there was a bag of Kiln Dried Aspen there.. Which I thought was weird.. that they had one and not the other.. Oh well. Ill just be running to the pharmacy quicker for a refill on my inhaler..

Oh yea! I saw a little girl at the store with her mother buying fleece that looked just like Lydia! I was gonna tell her a thing or two. Then I remembered there are over 10 states between us! :lol:


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## Nancy

I'm sure Aspen would kill me if I had to use it for any length of time. The inhaler didn't help very much and I'd start to wheeze just walking in the room.


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## Gnarly

LizardGirl said:


> On her youtube account it is set so only 5 star ratings show... which make her videos look like everyone loves them from a quick glance. :x


Very lame. But also very silly.


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## MGSpikers

We have not used water bottles here at our rescue mainly because of the dental issue. I contend that water bottles are manufactured for small rodents, whose teeth continue to grow nd can remedy a broken tooth. This is not the case with hedgehogs and a number of our rescues have entered our facility with one or both of their front fangs missing. There is also the issue of attempting to get at the water in the first place. I can appreciate the fact that a water bowl can be tipped over and/or poop/pee/food/etc. getting into the water dish. For some ten years we have used Petmate 2.8 liter waterers (#DO24053) made by Doskocil. Unfortunately, I think the manufacturer has discontinued this model and replaced it with more expensive, less practical, and harder to clean items. If you "Google" the name "Petmate 2.8 liter waterer" you will get several web sites that offer them (from $5.12 to $16.00!) but then state thet they only have one to five items in stock. To make matters worse, these dealers show two photos of waterers but do not specify which one is the one they have in stock (it is the shorter one on the left with the rectangular bowl that is the obne to get). You can park these waterers in a corner of the hedgie condo so they can only access water from one side and keep contamination to a minimum. Also, it is much preferred to get the "granite" or "speckled dove" color, as it is very easy to spot contamination in the water versus the dark blue or purple colored base.

Why do these guys keep changing things when they have a good thing going? Same thing with food bowls - Pyrex discontinued the both of the oval 8 ounce (#326) and 10 ounce (#700) bowls and I will NOT buy anything from China (and that seems to be all you can get in pet stores these days).


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## Benus95

I read these 8 pages in one sitting.  :lol: 

Not meaning to get the arguement started again but I feel that saying that all children that age are irrisponsible is like saying that all adults are boring and not fun. Its kinda steriotyping people by age group. I know I forget alot and not listen to directions all the time but I know many adults that do this to. Its not only the Children. I think she is just a little spoiled and usually spoiled children get what they want and it cant be another way even if it cost more another person then it does them( in this case Juniper pays with her health emotional and phisical).

She should not have her hedgehog on a towel( it was already explained). Oo and on the care video it totally sounded like she either memorized a whole paragraph or read it straight from the page.

PS Does someone know when they should be born.
PSS How long does it take for a hedgehog to give birth?


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## Melissa

I just wanted to mention the Allquills has been removed from the HWS rescue list on top of her deleting her site and such.

Maybe her parents are finally stepping in and doing their job now.


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## LizardGirl

Good for her parents and the HWS.


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## h_EDGE_hog

Wow, even her website. I hope that everything works okay with Juniper. I hope we eventually hear an update about her, once she has them, or IF she has them.


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## sagesmommy

ok i don't know if this is appropriate but what is allquills website? i have seen a lot of talk about it but i have never seen it? :?:


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## PixiesExoticHedgies

sagesmommy said:


> ok i don't know if this is appropriate but what is allquills website? i have seen a lot of talk about it but i have never seen it? :?:


It's no longer there. Either she shut it down herself, or her parents removed it for her.


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## Nancy

Benus95 said:


> I read these 8 pages in one sitting.  :lol:
> 
> Not meaning to get the arguement started again but I feel that saying that all children that age are irrisponsible is like saying that all adults are boring and not fun. Its kinda steriotyping people by age group. I know I forget alot and not listen to directions all the time but I know many adults that do this to. Its not only the Children. I think she is just a little spoiled and usually spoiled children get what they want and it cant be another way even if it cost more another person then it does them( in this case Juniper pays with her health emotional and phisical).
> 
> She should not have her hedgehog on a towel( it was already explained). Oo and on the care video it totally sounded like she either memorized a whole paragraph or read it straight from the page.
> 
> PS Does someone know when they should be born.
> PSS How long does it take for a hedgehog to give birth?


Nobody has said that all children are irresponsible. There are some very responsible children and teenagers. Part of the issue I think many people have with children and teens breeding is that they cannot be fully responsible for the hedgehog simply by the fact that they cannot drive, usually do not have a job and the finances to handle huge vet bills and live at home. This means that regardless of the childs best intentions, they still have to ask mom and dad for drives to the vet, money to pay for the vet and room for multiple cages etc. If mom and dad refuse or don't have time, the hedgehog is the one to suffer.

In Lydia's case. She is a very new owner still asking new owner questions and has a huge amount of misinformation. Add the fact that she is planning to breed a petstore hedgehog and it appears there isn't very much responsible parental guidance into what she is doing. All round it is a bad situation and risky for Juni.

I did hear that Juni had not been bred yet. Hopefully that is true and Juni gets to remain a pet.


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## Benus95

Oo I get you now  
Thanks for clearing this up.


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