# Kibble advice



## zoinks (Mar 15, 2019)

Looking for advice with nutrition, me and my partner have been following the advice and recommendation of foods given here and on the UK Facebook group and my partner is ridiculously fussy with ingredients to ensure the hog is as safe as possible :lol: but I am still very _very_ unsure...

So far the two kibbles we've best liked the look of are the *Arden Grande Light Chicken and Potato Adult Cat* & *Wainwrights Adult Cat Weight Control Dry Food*

*Arden Grande's Composition:* 
Fresh chicken (26%), potato (26%), chicken meat meal (22%), pea starch, egg powder, chicken digest, salmon oil, yeast extract, malt extract, pea fibre, chicken oil, minerals, prebiotic FOS, prebiotic MOS, cranberry extract, glucosamine, MSM, chondroitin, nucleotides. 
Analytical Constituents: Crude Protein 30%, Fat Content 11%, Crude Ash 7.5%, Crude Fibres 2.4%, Calcium 1.4%, Phosphorus 0.9%, Taurine 1000mg/kg, Omega-3 0.2%, Omega-6 1.8%.

and

*Wainwright's Composition: *
Turkey Meal (38%), Brown Rice (31%), Barley, Pea Protein, Poultry Fat, Digest, Minerals, Linseed (1%), Yeasts, Lucerne, Seaweed Meal (0.5%), Prebiotic-Mannan Oligosaccharides, Cranberry Extract Powder (500mg/kg), Rosemary Extract (300mg/kg), Yucca Extract(100mg/kg). 
Additives: Protein 32%; Crude Fibres 2.5%; Crude Oils and Fats 10%; Crude Ash 10.5%. Moisture 7%.

Are these good?

The club says we need 3 - 4 foods and also advises putting in an indoor or neutered cat mixture to reduce odour but we're having trouble working out what other brand is worth adding and also which indoor food to use. We're considering *Wainwright's Turkey and Rice Indoor Neutered Adult Cat Food *and *AVA Veterinary Approved Indoor/Neutered Grain Free Adult Cat Food* although I have heard AVA's pellets are too big for Hedgehogs?

*Wainwright's Turkey and Rice Indoor Neutered Adult Cat Food*'s Composition:
Turkey Meal (36%), Brown Rice (26%), Barley, Turkey Fat (7%), Potato Protein, Cellulose (4%), Minerals, Digest, Linseed (1%), Lucerne, Seaweed (0.5%), Malt Extract, Prebiotic Fructo-Oligosaccharides (0.1%), Prebiotic Mannan-Oligosaccharides (0.1%) Cranberry Extract (500mg/kg), Yucca Extract (200mg/kg).

Technological Additives: Antioxidants (Rosemary Extract); Sensory Additives: None Stated; Nutritional Additives: Additives/kg: Vitamins: Vitamin A 24,000IU, Vitamin D3 1600IU, Vitamin E 160mg, Taurine 1,280mg, L-Carnitine 25mg. Trace Elements: Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate 134mg, Manganese Oxide 125mg, Zinc Oxide 111mg, Cupric Sulphate Pentahydrate 16mg, Calcium Iodate Anhydrous 1.32mg, Sodium Selenite 0.18mg.

Analytical Constituents: Protein 30%, Crude Fibres 6%, Crude Oils and Fats 14%, Crude Ash 11%, Moisture 7%.

and *AVA Veterinary Approved Indoor/Neutered Grain Free Adult Cat Food*'s Composition: 
Chicken (51.4%) (Fresh Chicken 26%, Chicken Meal 21.2%, Chicken Gravy 3.3%, Chicken Fat 1%), Tapioca (12.3%), Potato (10.5%), Maize Protein, Whole Egg Powder (6%), Beet Pulp, Brewers Yeast, Pea Fibre, Minerals, DHA-Algae (0.4%), Pre-biotic Fructooligosaccharides (1600mg/kg), Beta-glucans, Pre-biotic Mannanoligosacchairdes (400mg/kg), Glucosamine (200mg/kg), Yucca Extract (200mg/kg), Cranberry Extract, Chondroitin (100mg/kg), Green Tea Extract, Pomegranate Extract, Rosemary Extract.

Technological Additives: ; Sensory Additives: ; Nutritional Additives: Vitamins: Vitamin A 24, 750 IU, Vitamin D3 1.350 IU, Vitamin E 450 IU, Taurine 1350mg, L-Camitine 200mg.

Analytical Constituents: Protein 38%, Crude Fibres 3.5%, Crude Oils and Fats 12%, Crude Ash 7.5%, Moisture 10%.

In my many years of owning animals I've never had to provide any of them with a mix so I'm way out of my element and would like someone who knows the math/how mixes work to advise us!


----------



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I use 1 indoor, 1 grain free and 1 just whatever I found best.

Not gonna lie but the ones the UK facebook recommend Are not the best, the brands are okay, but the actual food they recommend from these brands arent that great !!

But then again I am pretty picky about what I feed Holly to.

For overall protein and fat the basic calculation is taking the % protein of each food, adding them together then divide by 2. However this is obviously for an even half and half mix. 
I'm not good with maths so dont ask me how to work out if its not an even half and half my mum made me a spread sheet to do that

This is good to read to get the basics of the foods to pick good ones
https://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/index.php#/topics/23034

However if you want to be even more picky then have a look at this one after reading the first 
https://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/index.php#/topics/114530

I personally would use the first two only out of all of those. And then look for a different one for the third food.

The main reason that mixes are suggested is so that if one changes if you loose one of the 3-4 suddenly its better and easier for the hog, rather than loosing just their one food.


----------



## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

Three or four kibbles is a bit excessive, but as Ria said, it’s a good idea to have a mix of at least two in case one is discontinued or recalled. I look for kibbles with real meat or meal ingredients as at least the first three. I try to stay away from starches as much as possible, mostly because they’re a filler and don’t give any nutritional support! You guys sound like you’re doing your research though, so keep at it! I will say that I’m not a fan or recommending specific brands/flavors, but rather encourage you to go to a local pet store and look at the ingredients and analysis yourselves with these guidelines in mind 🙂


----------



## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Hi, I’m in the UK to and find good food difficult to find especially as I have a fussy hog.

We use James wellbeloved light, Turkey and James wellbeloved housecat, Duck.

I believe Lily’s kitchen is good to use (mine won’t eat it) or applaws senior.

I tend to avoid anything I find in the supermarket as I find there first ingredient is not meat and is often a meat meal instead.


----------



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Theres nothing wrong with meat meal as long as its named like chicken meal. Its more likely to be outweighed by other ingredients if its just a meat meal though. 

Lilly's kitchen is good for wet food as treats but I've looked at a lot of the biscuits and they aren't the best for hogs, although they can be used. Applaws you can use any of them (check ingredients though and nutritional analysis) the senior ones are just lower in fat.


----------



## Hollys helper (Nov 6, 2018)

Thank you Ria, that’s really helpful. As I could use another brand in my mix. I thought meatmeal as a complete no go as first ingredient so have been avoiding them.

Sorry for high jacking your thread Zoinks.


----------



## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I think there's a little confusion happening in this thread. Meat meal is not the same as a named meal of animal origin; i.e chicken meal. Meat meal is a low quality ingredient that should be avoided when possible (and in most cases it is pretty easy to avoid).

_Named_ meals like chicken meal, beef meal, is fine. _Unspecified_ meals such as poultry meal, or meat meal, should be avoided.


----------



## zoinks (Mar 15, 2019)

It's totally fine Holly's Helper! I don't think you're hijacking at all, I was actually considering James Well-beloved Housecat myself but was turned off by the Tomato Pomace as I heard this can be dangerous for hogs?

We've been told by my Mother that we _absolutely must include_ an indoor cat kibble to reduce smell or she'll kick up a fuss and we're having a very hard time finding one that doesn't have ingredients we've been warned against or an excessive amount of filler-

So far what we've decided on is the Arden Grande and Wainwrights as the bulk of the mix with a _very_ small amount of Wellness CORE Sterilised Adult Grain-Free Cat food as while it's high in fillers and is definitely not as nutritious as we'd like it's the only one we've found that doesn't include potentially dangerous ingredients... If anyone can suggest a better indoor cat food I'd be forever grateful!!


----------



## HappyHedgehogs (May 14, 2019)

I use Iams adult cat food for my hedgehogs. They love any of the meat flavoured ones. Just stay away from the fish! The Protein and Fat levels are very good in Iams, and I have found it to be a good "staple" for hedgehogs. With living in the UK I was unsure of brands at first, but by doing a bit of kibble shopping and looking at the backs of packets, I found that for me Iams is the best. It's a good quality cat food, but for a reasonable price. But I would say to stay away from specific "hedgehog food" and other cheap brands as often the quality of this has a big affect on Hedgehog's diet. The fat and protein levels are almost guaranteed to be wrong. It's like us eating MacDonald's every day! Hope that helps 😁


----------



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I have a food with tomato pomace near the end, and Holly is absolutely fine, I was a little worried about but I thought I'd try it anyway because I would monitor it and any bad signs it would come out, but its perfectly fine.

Having an indoor cat food DOESNT do anything for smell. Poo smells worse depending on:
1 how much their diet is made up of cat biscuit 
2 the lower the quality- the more fillers it has- the worse it will make their smell.
3 if you use a fish one it can (not always just mostly) makes their poo smell worse !!

Indoor cat foods have absolutely no effect on the smell. However they are great for having low fat, so its great to add to a mix to bring down the fat.
Having a diet that is majority healthy gut loaded insects is a brilliant way for less stinky poo. Only thing is you dont want to feed too many as they all pretty high in fibre and too much fibre isnt great for them.

HappyHedgehogs - I found that for me Iams is the best. It's a good quality cat food, but for a reasonable price. I'm sorry I'm going to repeat what I said on the other thread here too not because I don't think you don't understand but for more peoples benefit. Iams is not known to be a good brand, and that is majorly understandable, most of Iams brand food does have poor quality, most the time it has unnamed meats, so many fillers !! Its just not the best to recommend as an overall brand. However, there are some that are good - I spent hours looking at the majority iams foods and found 1 that was good its an indoor one for vitality too and I use it, its a fresh chicken ones.
Now Ik that theres like 3 good ones. But its not always easy to find. I just honestly dont agree with recommending iams as an overall brand since the majority isnt very good. Only ever recommend specific ones that your sure are good quality.


----------



## HappyHedgehogs (May 14, 2019)

Yes that's the same one I use, thanks for the advice I will be sure to include that next time! 😊


----------



## zoinks (Mar 15, 2019)

Thanks guys!

We've decided to just use a 50 - 50 mix of Arden Grande and Wainwright's weight control since that adds up to 31% protein and 10.5% fat- The fat is lower than we'd like especially while he's still growing but I figure we can quite easily get it up by allowing him a couple more fatty bugs!! 😆 We'd rather not include an indoor food if it wouldn't help the smell and figure we can always try him with an indoor cat food later down the line if the smell does become an issue.

Fingers crossed this is an okay choice! 😨 Please please let me know if it isn't.


----------



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Yea both those foods are fine. You could always change the ratio to have more of the fatty one to bring the fat up higher. Or just keep them on what the breeder has longer, depending how you feel about the food anyway, because you need to leave them on the same food for at least a week while they settle in the new home. Or as your changing it, if okay with the highest fat of that food and it bring the fat up of what you have already to a better feet keeping it at a good protein then you could leave that one in while he/she is still young and then take it out if you wanted later down the line when he/she is older and you want to use less fat again.


----------



## zoinks (Mar 15, 2019)

Our favourite part of his current mix is Applaws Complete Natural Dry Cat Food Kitten Chicken which would bring our total values up to 33.3% protein and 13.7% fats so keeping one of his current mix in wouldn't actually be too bad of an idea for the time being, thanks Ria!


----------

