# Green Poo, Cloudy Urine, Not Eating



## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

I understand that my subject line must sound like I'm just the worst owner ever. But please read the following details!

Fee is the hog in question. Floyd and Fee went in for their regular "well" vet visit just before the Thanksgiving holidays. Both came home happy and healthy, Fee the younger of the two (4 months 1 week) weighed in slightly heavier than Floyd at 270g. All is well, and I left for the holidays and Floyd and Fee remained under the care of a friend who happens to have just started working for my vet. When I got home my friend had left me a very detailed note, including the mention that Fee had not been eating. She seemed okay, active and the sort. It was extremely late (I caught the red eye home) and changed her food out completely (in case she hadn't liked the foreign smells associated with my friend's home) and went to bed. When I picked up Fee and then Floyd, I realized that Fee had lost weight. I was pretty sure she weighed less than Floyd and called my vet panicking. Saw the vet that day. I'd like to think I meticulously search my hedgehogs for external cues to health issues and here is what I shared with the vet:

1. Fee had been clicking that night. Not the angry clicking noise when they are afraid. It was almost rhythmical as if she had something lodged in her throat. No she did not sound like she was choking, just uncomfortable.

2. When snuggling her the night before to remind her what I smelled like, I noticed a red bump, almost like a pimple on her urethra. By the vet visit the bump and redness was gone.

Here is what I learned from the vet:

1. Fee weighed 216g!!! I know, I'm the worst owner ever, nothing anyone can say could make me feel worse that she lost such a significant amount of weight while I was away.

2. Fee was able to produce a fecal and urine sample on site!
a. Poo was green/sticky, but not bloody so the vet wasn't too concerned (obviously we were going home with meds for her anyway).
b. Urine (now this completely freaked me out, never seen this!) was cloudy. The vet said it showed epithelial cells indicating a urinary tract infection. She also said that this could be caused by a ton of things, but I'm leaning towards the argument that the female hedgie's anatomy (like a human's) raises the chances of this sort of infection. I'm also thinking that when Fee runs on her wheel (with no holes in the bottom) she doesn't seem to get off to use the potty and so she's a little dirty until I get to her in the morning. I was under the impression that wheels with holes were dangerous. I have no problem with daily foot baths if that means no broken limbs!

3. The vet said that Fee's clicking seemed consistent with a small mammal's reaction to a respiratory infection and that this might be the primary instigator of all the other symptoms.

Fee went home with the following:

Enrofloxacin
Famotidine
Carnivore Care

One of those is for the infection and the other for nausea, while the Carnivore Care is her new hand feeding diet (4cc/8hrs).

I ended up taking Fee back into see the vet the very next day. Why? Well, I had just fed her breakfast and she was on my belly when she started scratching her eye. Not just her eye, I mean her eyeball! I freaked out again and pulled her paws away and wouldn't let her alone until I saw the vet for fear she might continue to scratch. While waiting for our appointment I got her to hold still long enough that I noticed a hair in her eye and I flushed it out with water. She hasn't scratched since, but we did go to the vet who confirmed a scratched lens and gave her some eye drops. Fee was weighed at her appointment (24 hours since last weigh in) and had gained 4g!

So it's a week later. I'm about to end the medication regimen but I'm not convinced Fee is cured. She is still active, eyes are clear and bright. I believe she is continuing to gain weight, although she still has yet to take any food on her own. I have noticed that she intermittently licks at her private area, and while I'm no vet, I'm thinking her UA infection is not cleared up. Every morning I make sure to wash her private area to help facilitate good hygiene. She does drink water on her own. She runs on her wheel for HOURS. She may be just a little bit more snuggly than normal (for her). Finally, I keep my 1 bedroom (tiny) apartment at a balmy 77 for these guys (and me!), Floyd is fine, but when I pick Fee up out of her cage SOMETIMES I feel as though she feels cool to my touch. She has had a few more BMs than before she started the hand feeding, but they don't look anymore solid than before the medications. I am going to take her into the vet again since I just don't think she has improved to the point that the vet had intended, but I think at this point I'd also like to poll the masses. I've read up on FLD and if it's that, my heart will break. She does look a lot better than before the medications, but I know my hedgies, and she's not at the top of her game. Oh I almost forgot, I had the vet specifically check Fee/Floyd for mites. She said they both were good, clean skin and smooth quills. However, I have noticed that Fee's tail seems a bit scaly. She doesn't seem bothered, she isn't scaly or dry-skinned anywhere else. I just think that's another odd sign I'll want looked at closer.

Any ideas or feedback would be greatly appreciated!!!

Sorry, I"m an idiot, her diet includes:

Chicken Soup for the Cat Lover's Soul Lite
Gut loaded crickets
Dried sweet potatoes (are one of her favorites)
Other dried fruits and veggies (I found a great all natural source!)
Mealworms (although I have been warned these are to be administered as more of a treat not a diet staple)

Oh and their bedding is not wood, we do carefresh.

Please help us if you have any ideas!


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

Hmmm...well I'm no vet either (at least not for 4 1/2 more years) but I'd say that the urinary infection probably hasn't cleared up either and its best that you go back to the vet.

Now, I'm also not an expert on hedgie medical problems, but from my experience with cats, gettting a urinary infection due to stress is very common. I'm not sure how good of care your friend took of your hedgies while you were away, but I think it's possible the stress alone may have caused the lack of eating, urinary tract infection, respiratory infection etc. Also, did your friend clean the wheel every morning? Possibly this caused the UTI as well.

UTI's can be stubborn to treat, so you may just need another round of antibiotics. As for the not eating, it is a common symptom of problems, and it could be that her feeling sick + on all these nasty meds is taking away her appetite. 

I would recommend adding another food to your diet though...1 cat food is not enough and maybe the problem is she went "off" that food while you were gone and now doesn't like it anymore. This does happen sometimes....try slowly introducing another perhaps? Also bugs are part of the staple diet...not just a treat. Don't go overboard with the mealies or anything, but especially since she has lost weight, the extra fat won't hurt. As for the carnivore care....it's 45% protein...wayyyy to high. This can cause kidney failure big time. I would talk to your vet about using a/d wet cat food, ensure/boost, that kind of stuff to feed instead.

Also the carefresh can be a little dusty and could be contributing to the respiratory infection. I would pick up some fleece liners and some white receiving blankets (for babies). Put her on the white receiving blankets so that you can see the colour of her pee and monitor the UTI better. Once that has cleared up switch her onto the fleece blankets.

All that being said, I haven't read up that much on FLD, but don't really think that's the problem. Sounds like you just got a whole jumble of other problems. 

Your vet sounds pretty good though, is he/she an exotic vet? Never heard of an anti-nausea medication being prescribed for hedgies but who knows. I would just keep up with your vet's treatment and try to get your hedgie back on track. 

And maybe try not to go on vacation for a while too. Sounds to me like that stress is the main evil here.....not sure if that was helpful in the slightest....but good luck!


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## HedgeMom (Nov 7, 2008)

Are you absolutely positive that your friend did not allow Floyd and Fee to have "playtime"?


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

HedgeMom said:


> Are you absolutely positive that your friend did not allow Floyd and Fee to have "playtime"?


That was my thought as well. If they have had any playtime together, even for a minute, in the past couple of months, I would be concerned that this is a breeding/pregnancy related complication.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

It's true, my friend did leave me a detailed note saying that Fee and Floyd were allowed to play together, but she is aware of the male/female thing and not to let them breed. She's a responsible college-age kid who works for the vet. I can't really say for sure they didn't mate, but I know she did not leave them unsupervised and thus did not let Floyd mount Fee. In fact, she noted that Fee attempted to bite Floyd. But let's say Floyd did penetrate Fee, would this alone cause an infection? I'm just 99.9% certain she is not pregnant.

I called the vet today, but they told me to start easing off the Carnivore Care. I probably should have insisted and pushed the licking of her private area issue further. I will call again tomorrow as per the vet response posted.

I will go ahead and make the bedding switch tomorrow. Thanks for the tip.

Now this is terrible, but I am leaving town for 2 weeks shortly. I have no option to take Fee and Floyd with me. I have put in several calls to the airline but they do not have a policy beyond dogs/cats. So I have 2 options for babysitters. First is the same friend who watched them over Thanksgiving. She has a ferret, I'm not sure if this is a factor or not. I'm inclined to use her because she has animal knowledge, but not if this is likely to bring Fee more stress! The other option is my sister's BF, who has watched them before as well.

Thank you all for your quick responses! I love Fee and Floyd so much!!! As a hedgie owner, you just know when your baby is sick, and I won't stop until I feel Fee is no longer ill.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

HedgeMom + Nancy: Months?

When I got Fee I did notice that she was kept in a large pen with other hedgies. I could only assume these were her litter mates and have no idea to the sex of them. I brought her home early September 2009 at 6 weeks old. If she was pregnant, I would have already noticed that, right? I won't lie, when I noticed the weight drop, I did run her cage for any babies. No babies found. I tend to think of the worst case scenario for everything!

When I first got Fee, I thought it was really funny to watch Floyd react to her. 1 bite from Fee and that became WAY LESS FUNNY. They have NEVER been unsupervised with me. I have NEVER allowed Floyd to mount Fee. The last time they hung out under my care was 2 months ago. I know the dangers of Fee getting pregnant, so if Floyd ever behind Fee, I'd scoop him up and relocate him. I should have never really let them hang out, and that was my $300+ lesson. Now if they are going to be near each other it's from cage to cage and I still get to enjoy Floyd's squeaking and his ears standing at attention.... he's such a show off!


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

Okay, maybe my last post. I'm going to ask the vet about pregnancy too. It seems like a viable option, even though if myself/my friends cannot tell what hedgie breeding looks like I'd be pretty embarrassed!

What questions/procedures would I ask the vet? I know pregnancy is a long shot, but if it sounds like a fit then I'll have to assume it is a possibility until I have hard evidence against it.


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## HedgeMom (Nov 7, 2008)

Hedgehogs are induced ovulators. Just being around Floyd brought her into heat and yes, mating can be instantaneous. 

A vet cannot tell you she's pregnant but she may have a vaginal infection from breeding. 

Count 39 days from the first play date and prepare for babies. Don't rule them out until 50 days from the last play date.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

Ah ha! My vet is an exotic vet, but on my 2nd visit she hinted around the issue of heat. She brought in a small book with her and mentioned something about heat, but said she did not know if hedgehogs even went into heat. I didn't know either and she told me that they probably did not. I will be sure to pass along the information, that's really sort of fascinating. Now this raises another question. Fee and Floyd's cages are actually really close to one another (I live in a small apartment), should I move them? How far apart? *I've already moved them apart in lieu of your response.

I'm sitting at 21 +/- 4 days now. If she were pregnant wouldn't she be gaining weight? At 3 weeks, wouldn't the vet (or myself) feel the babies growing?

I hate to be so incredulous, I can understand the induced ovulation, but does this mean that a male hedgehog ejaculates immediately? If so, then I think that old analogy of going at it like rabbits needs to be amended to hedgehogs.

I've already read the information regarding hedgehog (and unexpected) pregnancy. I still cannot change my travel plans (sister is getting married) so I will just have to pass along the information. In this case, would you agree it would be more prudent to allow my friend that works at my vet's office to watch my hedgehogs even if this might stress Fee? Or should I try my sister's BF? To be honest, my gut says to go with my friend and have her house them in a room apart from her ferret, Rocko.

Thanks again, this information is not only really helpful to me, but I'm sure will help out my vet.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

actually comparing the breeding the habits of hedgies to rabbits is a good analogy, rabbits are also induced ovulators, and hedgies can breed in just a few seconds. Its ok to have the cages close together, just don't let them out at the same time. Its not known if being induced to ovulate over and over without breeding is bad for the female, and being next to a female just creates alot of frustration for the male. So its best if they have completely seperate play time.


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

DiscoSisII, I just want to say thanks for being so receptive to this advice and for being honest about everything! It is refreshing to have new members genuinely concerned for their hedgie's health, and willing to make changes for them.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

As long as I have some well versed hedgie attention, I have an unrelated question regarding Fee. She has always had an affinity for nipping/chewing/tugging on fabrics: pillows, clothing, even metal (like a zipper). She has NEVER bitten me out of fear/anger, although she has nipped me a couple times on accident. Is this a normal hedgehog behavior? Any chance of discouraging it?


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

I think the biting on fabric and pulling it is normal, I've seen lots of ppl on here say there hedgies will tug on their t shirts, I'd just try to be careful with the zipper because I could see that possibly causing a chipped tooth and make sure when they are biting the fabric to play that no little pieces are going to come off of it. As for biting you sometimes they may smell something on you they like and will take a nip, you could try unscented hand soap if she's getting your hands. There is usually licking first then a nip so you can try to move the skin out of the way real quick if you can. If they are biting you when playing with your t shirt it might just be that they are getting excited playing and get a little carried away. I hope this helps and hope your hedgie feels better too


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

DiscoSisII said:


> As long as I have some well versed hedgie attention, I have an unrelated question regarding Fee. She has always had an affinity for nipping/chewing/tugging on fabrics: pillows, clothing, even metal (like a zipper). She has NEVER bitten me out of fear/anger, although she has nipped me a couple times on accident. Is this a normal hedgehog behavior? Any chance of discouraging it?


That is very normal behaviour and some hedgehogs love to chew on fabrics. Don't try and discourage her but give her an old t-shirt or something hedgehog safe that she can't damage. Don't let her chew on metal though as she could break her teeth.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

Called vet. Still not terribly concerned with Fee's progress. The Enrofloxacin is a 2 week treatment. I do have them on notice, and if she does not improve in the next couple days we'll be changing the antibiotic.

I changed the bedding. I was sort of in a pinch scheduling wise and ended up grabbing "Eco Bedding." It is dust free and non toxic. I sprinkled some crickets and mealworms in the bedding (the back suggested this as it encourages foraging for food). I made it a point to drop a gut loaded cricket right in front of Fee. She has been especially curious today (probably enjoying the bedding - great for burrowing) and she went right for it! It appears like she has moved on and is making rounds in her cage looking for the little treasures.

I'm pretty sure this is great news! I will of course continue to prepare for babies. The vet also suggested coating her kibble in the Carnivore Care, so we'll be trying out that one as well. We're definitely optimistic over here, thank you all for the wonderful feedback.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

Well I'm home. No babies. It's day 40-47. Fee looks good. Really big though.... My friend took her in a couple times to work (i.e. the vet). She is now 300g. This is a new high and I think a pretty massive weight gain in such a short period of time. I definitely have my feelers out for babies. The vet felt her belly and didn't think she was pregnant, but I understand this does not mean she is not pregnant. Anyway you slice it, I am very happy to see her looking much better. I will surely update everyone as to if she ends up making it past the window sans litter.

Thank you all again for your wonderful advice. This is such a wonderful place to get more tips on a pet that is a little less common.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

LizardGirl said:


> DiscoSisII, I just want to say thanks for being so receptive to this advice and for being honest about everything! It is refreshing to have new members genuinely concerned for their hedgie's health, and willing to make changes for them.


Thank you so much. I love my hedgies and I'm glad it shows. Even my vet and the techs will comment on how much friendlier my hedgies are than others they see! Now that I have hedgies of my own I feel really bad for the first hedgie I ever met. He was the classroom pet in 7th grade (mark the beginning of my love affair with hedgehogs) and was kept in a small aquarium with no wheel!!! I didn't know how cruel this was at the time, but I do remember coming back from lunch early every day just to hold Koosh. It took me 6 months to get him to unroll and I'd always get so angry when the class would storm back in and scare him. I like that hedgies take patience though, it is that much more rewarding when you win their affections.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

Speaking of other hedgehogs... my best friend has one and complained to me that she never unrolls and that she can't cut her nails. I told her to try putting her in water to get her to unroll. She got in contact with me today and sent me this video:






I don't know about anyone else's hedgehogs, but mine do NOT ever stay under the water. It looks like she probably took in water too. I doubt that she was always exhaling when those bubbles were coming out. Sometimes my hedgies will dunk their heads accidentally and they always come up and sneeze, so maybe she was okay? I didn't intend for her to submerge her hedgehog at all!!! I already told her to use less water. I've seen hedgehogs swim; mine do, but I'm always right there and there is always a level where they can stand and rest and a level where they can swim.

I'm also bummed to see her bf had to use gloves when handling her. She just gave this hedgie to her cousin as a gift and from what I understand her hedgie is not very friendly at all. I told her to try the shirt in the cage and spending at least 30mins a day with her, but I know it is easier to raise them friendly than to break nasty habits. Any other tips you might have and I'll surely pass them along.

**Bonus! I hear Fee munching on food!


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I've had ones that would keep their head under and only raise it to take a breath. Needless to say, I don't put them in water anymore and run it over their back instead.

That pan is too slippery. They need to have good footing when in the water so they don't slide. She is trying to stand and can't because of the slippery surface. 

If they just got her, she needs some time to get used to them without subjecting her to a bath. Get rid of the gloves too and if necessary, use a small blanket.


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

I second that, I'd have her ditch the gloves and use a blanket. For the next bath (after she's had time to settle) I would just pour a cup over his back on a non slip surface so the water isn't getting in his face and so he's not having struggle like that. I'm not sure how similar a hedgies ears are to other animals but I know that ear infections can be a problem when bath water gets into them, inhaling water can cause URI's and pnemonia in other animals. Once the hedgie has some time to get used to her he might start to stay unballed long enough to get a couple of toe nails at a time. I just keep the nail trimmers next to me everytime I take mine out so that if theres an opportunity I can seize it, I find that mine kicks his feet out while eatting snacks now that he's used to me and I take the opportunity lol. I know she didn't know but hopefully she'll take your advise so that bathtime doesn't have to be so unpleasant.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm not going to comment on the video...

But anyways, I second what was said above, and just want to repeat...tell her to keep an eye on Respiratory problems and Ear Infections, from getting dropped and dunked in the water like that.


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

:shock: 


Wow.


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

Yikes!  

You are right, that is way too much water for the hedgie, it can't even stand up. The person keeps plopping it in all balled up so it's disoriented and has to flail to even surface breathe... poor thing. I hope your friend listens to you and doesn't do that again.


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## LyzziFall (Oct 2, 2009)

I was so upset by that video that I've waited until now to calm myself down and post. I know they obviously didn't know better but if I knew where they lived I would more than likely go and attempt to confiscate the poor baby...

I know that's harsh and I'm sorry but it's how I feel. I really hope they listen to you and bathe it gently by pouring water down her back and getting rid of the gloves, as everyone else has said.


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

It's ok Lyzzi I felt the same way and had a very hard time watching the video  I wanted to give the person the benefit of the doubt but it was extremely hard to watch. I took a minute to clear my head to respond earlier but in all honesty it has bothered me all day. I just hope they take the advice given to them so the little guy doesn't have to go through that again.


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## strawberryfields (Oct 3, 2009)

Is there any news on Fee's condition? Any little pink squeaky things in her cage? :lol:


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

Oh geez! I did forward all of the information and comments onto my friend. Again, this was not my intention when I told her to try a bath to get her to unroll. In fact, I sent her a video on YouTube first to illustrate hedgies in water. I pretty much reacted the same way when I saw the video, hence why I shared it.

I'm well over the gestational period and no babies and Fee is back and just slightly bigger than ever (~300g). I really was going to be quite embarrassed if Fee was pregnant, but then again, it would have made for a good lesson. No matter what you think, there is always a chance for reproduction even if you're watching. I have learned a lot. I cannot wait to tell my vet that hedgehog ovulation is induced. Seeing as she is not pregnant, it only seems logical Fee had a respiratory infection, likely due to the Carefresh bedding. Again, thank you for the tip on the Carefresh. This is the exact bedding my vet suggested, so I'll be sharing what I learned about the dust with them next time as well.

Again thanks to everyone's help. This is hands down the best hedgie advice out there. I had read about owning a hedgehog before getting one and my vet treats every type of animal under the sun (including many hedgies to a porcupine to a bald eagle!), but the bottom line was I still wasn't giving my hedgies the best possible care. I'm so happy I switched their bedding... again! And I certainly would encourage anyone with a hedgie to get on hedgehogcentral and read the posts out there or ask a question if they couldn't find the answer online.

Thanks again everyone! Oh and just in case... is there a threshold weight for a hedgie where I'd start to worry about obesity? I've only heard that it's a problem when they can no longer roll into a ball. Not that Fee is fat, but I do not wish for her to go from one weight extreme to the other.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

Hopefully a hedgie video that won't upset anyone. This is Fee when I first brought her home at 6 weeks! She's much bigger now, but still has the wicked cool "soul patch" on her right flank.


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

Bah! Come on! So it's Sunday, i.e. full bath/cage cleaning day. Clipped their nails. No bleeding. Well... mostly. Here we go again. I'm clipping Fee's nails. She's really cool about it. However, I noticed on her front paw the "thumb" nail looked like it was bleeding (dry blood only on the underside of the nail). I didn't even clip that one, it didn't need it. I got out a wet wipe and attempted to clean up the "thumb" to see what was going on. I stopped though. Maybe it was in my head but it looked like the nail was going to come off. She is not showing any pain or tenderness in the area. It could be in my mind. Does this ever happen? I'm surely keeping an eye on it. If the nail goes, we're going to the vet as I imagine that would open her up to infection. Pretty sure it is in my mind... actually holding her paw out and looking under a light I don't think it is in my mind. She's a super active digger/scratcher/nips at fabrics. Maybe she got a nail caught in something?

What do I do? Why is Fee giving me so much trouble!!!

I'm sure she isn't bleeding right now, it just looks like that claw is ready to go. Not necrotic, everything is white/pink as it should be, it looks loose and as if maybe the nail has broken away from the under skin.


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## strawberryfields (Oct 3, 2009)

What kind of wheel are you using? It's very possible that she caught her nail on the wheel. She also could have chewed on it or something. If it isn't bleeding anymore and she doesn't appear to be limping or anything, it's probably fine.

Don't worry, we all feel like our hedgies are constantly giving us something to stress out over. That's what hedgie parents do: Worry! :lol: 

And oh MY she was adorable at six weeks! Rocko wasn't that tiny! Of course he weighs 370 grams now and he's only five months old. :shock:


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## DiscoSisII (Dec 14, 2009)

Thanks, that's comforting to hear. Floyd and Fee both have the same kind of wheel. It is I think 12" diameter, plastic with no holes at all. There are small ridges for traction about every 3/4". I'd say Fee is more of a "mall walker" where Floyd runs all night long.


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