# Strange behaviour, vague "symptoms", LOTS of info



## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

Hi,

I've posted here a couple of times before about my hedgie Bellie who I got in February. Her birthday is actually this Thursday and she will be 1yr. I've posted in the past because she wasn't eating (which turned out to be dehydration; despite using a water bottle at the breeder's she just wouldn't drink out of it for me), and a few times she's tried to hibernate (which remain a mystery to me because the temperature and light were fine). The few hibernation attempts were thwarted and afterwards she returned to her normal self.

The reason I'm posting today is because she has been acting very strangely for the last few months. It's been a slow-going thing, but it's only been getting worse. Essentially what is happening is: she won't get up at night. However, if I get her up (around 10:30pm - 11pm), she gets up, eats and drinks, runs on her wheel, and her personality/friskiness/energy levels are no different then when she was getting up on her own. Except she doesn't _stay_ up. She will be up for maximum 25mins and then it's right back to bed. I stay up pretty late these days, so every hour or so I'll wake her up again and it's the same routine: eat and drink a bit, play on her wheel, then back to bed. When I get up in the morning, all her food is gone (meaning she did get up again of her own accord at least one more time). If I don't wake her up the first few times throughout the night though, she *does not get up at all*. The first time that happened, I panicked and assumed she was trying to hibernate again, but when I whipped her cabin off of her to check on her, she huffed and puffed at me and was her normal grumpy self. She just hadn't gotten up or eaten at all the night before.

Another thing is, for the past 2 weeks when I wake her up, not every night but some nights she's been hot. The temperature in my room pretty much never changes (it stays at 73ºF, though some nights goes up to 74ºF or dips down to 72ºF, but such an occasion is _very rare_), so I don't understand why she would be hot. Also, if she is too hot, then I would kind of get why she isn't running on her wheel; who would want to exercise when they're already warm? *BUT WAIT!* She's not hot every night, and she still won't get up/run/eat unless I wake her up myself.

Last night, I woke her up around 11pm and she ate some food, drank some water, and ran on her wheel for about 5mins (not unusual for her at this point). Then she went back to bed. I left her alone until about 1am when she got up by herself and ate some more food, but didn't run on her wheel. When I got up this morning, I saw that she had eaten about 1/3 of her food. Immediately my mind jumps to hibernation now when she hasn't eaten, so I checked on her and sure enough she was a bit cool but not unresponsive; she unballed immediately and was trying to get back to bed. I held her in my lap for about a half hour until she felt "normal" again (which was hard, because she wanted to run around and go back to her bed) but I've just put her back in her cage and she seems 100% fine personality/energy/temperature wise.

I just don't get what's going on!!

Is it possible that she's depressed? Or bored? Or both? I have her in a 19"x11" cage with room to run around, 2 balls to play with, her wheel, and her cabin which she previously enjoyed climbing on top of. The temperature is situated at 73ºF, and since she is sometimes hot I'm afraid to crank it up. The cage has a litter pan that stands only 2.5" high and the rest is open air wiring. I have a towel draped over the back and behind her cabin so that no drafts can get to her while she's sleeping. She gets ample light from 9am-10pm every day. She now never plays with her balls (I used to hear them dingling in the night when she bunted them around) and never climbs on her cabin. She barely runs in her wheel and I can't stay up all night long playing with her (obviously). She eats all her food if I make sure she gets up, she drinks normal amounts, her poop is normal-looking and a normal amount, she hasn't lost weight... It's just that she won't get up at night unless I force her and even then she isn't up for long.

I know I'll probably get told to take her to a vet, and I have Dr. Munn's information open in another tab here in my browser. I just wanted to know if anyone had ANY information or ideas about what could be causing this strange behaviour. Any help would be EXTREMELY appreciated.

Recent photo of Bellie:








(ps I know her ears look a bit tattered in the picture but I put Bag Balm on them after that bath and they're healed now)


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

I would bump the heat up to 75-78. What do you heat with? And do you have a thermometer in /around the cage? Is the room completely dark during the nite? Some hogs will not come out if there is ANY light at all. Your cage is 19x11 is that in inches? If so that's way to small.


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

LarryT said:


> I would bump the heat up to 75-78. Is the room completely dark during the nite? Some hogs will not come out if there is ANY light at all. Your cage is 19x11 is that in inches? If so that's way to small.


I was thinking the exact same thing! You may think it's warm enough - but a few degrees can make all the difference. 
Also, we recently discovered that our girl likes her cage covered at night, so it's pitch dark, or else she won't come out as much, won't eat as much & won't wheel as much.


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## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

LarryT said:


> I would bump the heat up to 75-78. What do you heat with? And do you have a thermometer in /around the cage? Is the room completely dark during the nite? Some hogs will not come out if there is ANY light at all. Your cage is 19x11 is that in inches? If so that's way to small.


Okay, but I'm concerned to bump up the heat when she's been so hot. Like, hot to the touch. Is it safe to turn up the temperature when she's felt hot in the recent past? Not last night or today, but as recent as two nights ago?

The room she's in is the room I share with my elderly grandmother, and my grandmother uses an oxygen tank that runs constantly and keeps the room very warm. It's the warmest room in the house because of the machine. When I feel like Bellie needs extra heat, I turn on a space heater that is situated right by her cage (but not blowing directly on her).

I have a thermometer right above her cage. It is reading 73ºF.

No, I have to keep a very small night-light on for my grandmother, but up until 7-8 weeks ago (and I've had Bellie since February) she was getting up on her own. Sometimes when I'm sitting around with my desk lamp on around 10pm or so, she will poke her head out to see if I've fed her yet, but that hasn't happened in a few weeks (maybe 2) which is why I posted here.

I'm sorry, her cage is 14" x 26" (I just measured it). Yes in inches.


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## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

PJM said:


> LarryT said:
> 
> 
> > I would bump the heat up to 75-78. Is the room completely dark during the nite? Some hogs will not come out if there is ANY light at all. Your cage is 19x11 is that in inches? If so that's way to small.
> ...


The only thing is, when I wake her up some nights she feels hot to the touch. That's why I haven't bothered turning up the heat (which would normally be my first inclination as I have had to deal with her trying to hibernate before).

I read before I got her that hedgies need ventilation though and covering their cages with a blanket was a bad idea. Is it safe to do that? I already have her cage partially covered by a towel to help keep out drafts.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

Wait on Nancy to post before you do anything  She has forgotten more over the years than I know.


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## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

LarryT said:


> Wait on Nancy to post before you do anything  She has forgotten more over the years than I know.


Okay. Thank you for your help.


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## Sheryl (Sep 9, 2010)

What kind of a wheel does she have?


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## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

Sheryl said:


> What kind of a wheel does she have?


I just took these photos of her cage set up. I have covered her cage more than usual just in case it's a bit drafty or something (I'm still nervous to turn up the heat). Usually the towel only covers half of the sides and the back. You can see the space heater sitting on top.










Her wheel (which is the same wheel she ran on at the breeders, and has had no problems running on/using since I got her):


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

First, I'd start by changing her wheel. Get a nice bucket style wheel. While I do have and have used the plastic mesh spool wheel, the metal mesh ones have been known to catch toenails, and if she caught one, she may be reluctant to try to run on the wheel again.

What size is that wheel? I'm wondering if since she has grown up if the wheel may be a bit small in diameter which could cause her to feel uncomfortable when running for very long.

Do you have a snuggle bag that she can sleep in? That cage has a metal pan and you are using substrate bedding. If she is burrowing down into her substrate under her house, the metal of the pan could be causing the oddness in being hot/cold.


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## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

Kalandra said:


> First, I'd start by changing her wheel. Get a nice bucket style wheel. While I do have and have used the plastic mesh spool wheel, the metal mesh ones have been known to catch toenails, and if she caught one, she may be reluctant to try to run on the wheel again.
> 
> What size is that wheel? I'm wondering if since she has grown up if the wheel may be a bit small in diameter which could cause her to feel uncomfortable when running for very long.
> 
> Do you have a snuggle bag that she can sleep in? That cage has a metal pan and you are using substrate bedding. If she is burrowing down into her substrate under her house, the metal of the pan could be causing the oddness in being hot/cold.


I can try a new wheel, but she still does run in her wheel, just not for very long. She's is a small hedgehog (the breeders bred her that way) so she does fit comfortably in the wheel. I've avoided bucket wheels before because they all seem to be slanted and she's not used to that. I know falling out of wheels can be a problem for breaking legs, etc. so I've been cautious to put her on something that seems to be designed to have them fall out. I know that the majority of hedgehog owners on this site use the bucket style but that has been why I've been wary of them.

The wheel 8.5" diameter. I wish I had a photo of her running on the wheel so you could see how much space she takes up.

I don't have a snuggle bag. I line the bottom of the cage with paper so if she does burrow she's not directly on the metal. I always put extra bedding in her house so she can make a nest, otherwise she digs up the paper and shreds it to use for bedding. Again, I've been cautious of things like snuggle bags because I've read about threads coming loose and severing toes and what have you, but again know that quite a lot of users on this forum use snuggle bags.

I will try to get over to the pet store today to try out a new wheel and also get a snuggle bag. However, I would still have to wake her up to try out her new wheel.


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## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm going to go buy her a new wheel and a snuggle bag now. I probably won't be able to come back on the forum until later tonight, but a GIANT THANK YOU to everyone who has posted back to me so far. <3 <3 <3


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## princessbuttercup (Jun 11, 2010)

My hedgie Buttercup has basically been doing the exact same thing. She just turned a year old and basically has all the exact same super vague "symptoms". It's been going on for a while and I took her to the vet last week and they put her on probiotics and antibiotics and gave me a soft food to syringe feed her to make sure she's eating enough. But she doesn't get up unless I get her up, too. And the problem is that she doesn't run at all. I heard her once last week, right before the vet visit but that's been it.

The meds don't seem to be doing anything in particular for her, I really didn't want to have to put her through blood work so right now I'm just working with the antibiotics. I hope that we can figure out whats going on. Let me know if there's any advancements.


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## Puffers315 (Apr 19, 2010)

Light can be a very important factor with hedgehogs. My girl Hester didn't really first really care about my desk lamp or tv/monitor glow, but as she has grown older and is getting close to being a year old, she now won't come out until its almost pitch black.

My 2 year old boy Loki will -not- come out unless he has total utter darkness. About a month back I had replaced the blackout curtain on his cage with a blanket, and it was enough that it let just a little light into his cage, and he stopped wheeling and being active, he'd eat and drink but that was it.

A black out curtain might be something to look into, I was using this on my cage, towels on the side and the curtain on the front. The curtain is a lighter material than a towel or blanket, and I left the back of the cage uncovered and about 2 inches from the wall so there was some sort of air flow. The curtain specifically blocks out 99.9% of the light.

And if you got the Carolina Storm Wheel, the angle of the tilt can be adjusted, you might try if you're worried to tilt it backwards a touch, until she gets the hang of it. I've never had neither of my guys fall out from running on it, and its angled just enough that urine and typically poop will come off.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

I wanted to add a comment about the wheel you pictured; my hedgehog ran on a wheel just like this one before and for a short time after I brought him home, and it was tearing up the pads of his feet. After giving your hedgie a foot bath, see how the foot pads look, paying special attention to anything that looks like a cut or abrasion. This might have something to do with a lack of wheeling. I definitely recommend a cake wheel, they're easy on little feet and a breeze to clean.

~Katie


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Heat rises so the heater should be on the floor. 

If you need to enclose the sides of the cage to prevent drafts, it is best to use heavy clear plastic as it still allows light through but no drafts. You can buy it by the yard at fabric stores and it comes in various thicknesses. Attach it using either binder clips or clothespins. 

At 8.5" the wheel is smaller than is recommended for a hedgehog but if she is very tiny it might be okay. As others have mentioned, mesh wheels are not recommended as they can catch toes and feet. To make the wheel safe, you can attach craft foam to the running surface.


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## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

princessbuttercup said:


> Let me know if there's any advancements.


I certainly will! Review the post and all the tips everyone gave me and see if any of them apply to you/your hedgie.



Puffers315 said:


> Light can be a very important factor with hedgehogs. My girl Hester didn't really first really care about my desk lamp or tv/monitor glow, but as she has grown older and is getting close to being a year old, she now won't come out until its almost pitch black. ...
> 
> And if you got the Carolina Storm Wheel, the angle of the tilt can be adjusted, you might try if you're worried to tilt it backwards a touch, until she gets the hang of it. I've never had neither of my guys fall out from running on it, and its angled just enough that urine and typically poop will come off.


Maybe it is a maturity thing -- she's becoming more light sensitive as she gets older. The last time she tried hibernating I upped the amount of light she was getting a day (from 10/12 hours to 12/14 hours) and it made a huge difference. I didn't think about blocking out light at night because it never had been a problem before and the light is so minimal. Tonight I will try blocking out the light and see if it makes a difference.

As far as the wheel goes, I didn't have any luck finding one in one of the four different pet stores I went to (that wasn't either way too small or way too big), so I'm probably going to have to order one. Thank you for the tips on adjustment though!



Alastrina said:


> I wanted to add a comment about the wheel you pictured; my hedgehog ran on a wheel just like this one before and for a short time after I brought him home, and it was tearing up the pads of his feet. After giving your hedgie a foot bath, see how the foot pads look, paying special attention to anything that looks like a cut or abrasion. This might have something to do with a lack of wheeling. I definitely recommend a cake wheel, they're easy on little feet and a breeze to clean.
> 
> ~Katie


I check her feet/toenails when I'm clipping the nails and the pads of her feet never seem hurt or cut. I did think that maybe the wire was too abrasive for her (as many people are vehemently against the type of wheel I've been using) but her feet always seem to be the same colour as her arms with no visible signs of wear and tear. I will be changing her wheel over to a bucket-style though just in case she no longer cares for the feel of her wheel (or something along those lines). Thank you!



Nancy said:


> Heat rises so the heater should be on the floor.
> 
> If you need to enclose the sides of the cage to prevent drafts, it is best to use heavy clear plastic as it still allows light through but no drafts. You can buy it by the yard at fabric stores and it comes in various thicknesses. Attach it using either binder clips or clothespins.
> 
> At 8.5" the wheel is smaller than is recommended for a hedgehog but if she is very tiny it might be okay. As others have mentioned, mesh wheels are not recommended as they can catch toes and feet. To make the wheel safe, you can attach craft foam to the running surface.


Sorry, I know I didn't make it clear but I just store the heater there. When it's on it's usually on a lower level (either the shelf below her cage or on the floor).

I don't think my room is terribly drafty, but since we do have older windows and there are 3 of them I put the towel up just as a precaution. I think that as someone else mentioned in an earlier comment, the main concern when it comes to temperature is the fact that she has a metal bottom cage. It would explain her body temp being either warm or cool and I'm trying to find a snuggle thing for her, but the only ones I can find in pet stores are for ferrets and are way too big/hanging type. I'm going to try to find one online to order but so far all I've found is make-it-yourself or listings on Etsy. Do you have any recommendations for the snuggle bags?

I checked the wheel again and it's actually 9" (not a big difference, I know) but she is small and fits comfortably on it. I'm looking into the bucket-style but wasn't able to find one in-store (I went to 4 different places). Do you have any good online recommendations for the wheels as well?

Again, a great big thank you to everyone who's been posting replies!


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

I'd recommend the Carolina Storm Wheel, LarryT here on the forum sells them. Just type the name of the wheel on the search tool. It's very safe, easy to clean and comfortable on hedgie's little feet.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Sometimes it's not so much that windows are drafty but that they radiate cold. Putting the plastic window kits over the windows usually really helps in keeping out the cold.

A quick easy fix for the metal bottomed cage is to get a piece of coroplast and cut to fit tight inside the metal base.

A plastic igloo with some fleece inside or a baby receiving blanket makes a good bed if you can't find bags. Nikki on here sells bags. http://quillsnthings.webs.com/accessoriesforsale.htm


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## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

susanaproenca said:


> I'd recommend the Carolina Storm Wheel, LarryT here on the forum sells them. Just type the name of the wheel on the search tool. It's very safe, easy to clean and comfortable on hedgie's little feet.


Thanks! I actually just googled it and was considering it, but I wanted to see what other recommendations would come in 



Nancy said:


> Sometimes it's not so much that windows are drafty but that they radiate cold. Putting the plastic window kits over the windows usually really helps in keeping out the cold.
> 
> A quick easy fix for the metal bottomed cage is to get a piece of coroplast and cut to fit tight inside the metal base.
> 
> A plastic igloo with some fleece inside or a baby receiving blanket makes a good bed if you can't find bags. Nikki on here sells bags. http://quillsnthings.webs.com/accessoriesforsale.htm


Thank you very much!


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## Puffers315 (Apr 19, 2010)

If you're thinking about a different cage, one thing that is used by many owners are plain old clear Steralite storage bins, they're cheap, easy to clean, all you need to do is add some vent holes to the side by either cutting/drilling/melting them into it. Most get two but basically you get the largest you can handle. The double bin idea is mainly you have one for their housing, food and water dishes, then the second one has their wheel inside, you connect them via 5 inch PVC pipe piece.

Its not what I used, I got a large Ferret Nation just because I liked the cages, though I think if I had to do it again, I would have gone for a C&C or Storage Bin house.


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

Has your Grandma had the oxygen machine since you have had your hedgie? The reason I ask is if she had gotten after or if you just started sharing the room it may be possible the noise may play into the equation. My Grandma has one and when I visited I remember it made a hissing like noise when the oxygen comes out. This may be nothing but it was something that came to mind when I was thinking over all the factors that this may or may not be affecting it.
Hope you find out and the best of luck to you and your little one


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## dragonfly3007 (Feb 14, 2010)

Puffers315 said:


> If you're thinking about a different cage, one thing that is used by many owners are plain old clear Steralite storage bins, they're cheap, easy to clean, all you need to do is add some vent holes to the side by either cutting/drilling/melting them into it. Most get two but basically you get the largest you can handle. The double bin idea is mainly you have one for their housing, food and water dishes, then the second one has their wheel inside, you connect them via 5 inch PVC pipe piece.
> 
> Its not what I used, I got a large Ferret Nation just because I liked the cages, though I think if I had to do it again, I would have gone for a C&C or Storage Bin house.


Thank you for the tips; I was eyeing new cages at the pet store today. I might consider purchasing one with a plastic bottom but otherwise similar to the one she currently has, but we'll see how the other solutions work first 



Hedgieonboard said:



> Has your Grandma had the oxygen machine since you have had your hedgie? The reason I ask is if she had gotten after or if you just started sharing the room it may be possible the noise may play into the equation. My Grandma has one and when I visited I remember it made a hissing like noise when the oxygen comes out. This may be nothing but it was something that came to mind when I was thinking over all the factors that this may or may not be affecting it.
> Hope you find out and the best of luck to you and your little one


Thank you! But yes she has had the oxygen since day 1. So Bellie is pretty used to it lol 

*UPDATE!!* I covered her cage this evening by putting the towel on the front of the cage and down the sides instead of leaving it along the back and only covering half of the sides. I woke her up around 11pm before I covered her, and it is now 1am and I am happy to report that she has been running on her wheel/eating since then (I keep peeking at her and also can hear when she's crunching on her kibble). I also ordered a snuggle bag to hopefully help control her body temperature. Hopefully all this trouble was just a developed sensitivity to light and a big BIG thank you to everyone who has commented on this post and helped me out  It seems I just got one of the most fussy, finicky hedgehogs out there!


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