# Can you take one more cat/kitten food question?....



## readthebook (Dec 15, 2011)

I am tentatively planning on feeding our new hedgie Blue Buffalo. These are my questions:

1) How long does the hedgie stay on kitten vs cat food because

2) It was my understanding from what I read that kitten food has more fat content and they should be on lower fat food for the long run?

Did I misunderstand? 

Also, 3) how much food is recommended to feed at a time their first year?

4) Do you feed them once or twice a day? 

Thank you!


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

1) Most people keep their hedgies on kitten food for approximately 6 months, but it also depends on the individual hog...which leads to...

2) About 70% of hedgehogs should be on ultra low fat diets, where the fat content should be under 15%, preferably in the 8-10% range. However, there are hedgehogs who are "twinkies on stilts" runner types who need to be kept on kitten food just so they don't lose weight. 
How will you know which type you have? 
Most hedgies are teardropped shaped, and the runners are | | shaped. Also, this is where having a scale is ultra important. As your baby grows, you will be able to monitor the weight and you will see growth spurts, and the eventual constant weight once they reach adulthood. IF you have a round shaped hedgie, when you switch to the lower fat, there should be minimal weight fluctuations, and there may still be some increase as they reach their final size/weight. If you have a runner, you'll notice a decrease of weight, and you'll need to increase the kitten food again. 

3) Hedgehogs should always be free fed. They should be allowed to eat as much as they want at all times. But to limit wasteage of kibbles, you have to learn how much your hedgehog actually eats per night. For example, when my boy was a baby, he ate an entire bowl of food, over 100 kibbles. So I'd give him enough that in the morning when I wake up, there should still be approximately 10-20 kibble remaining. Once he got older, he automatically decreased his kibble intake to around 40-50 kibbles. Therefore, I feed him 70 kibbles nightly, so that if he wanted to eat more, he has the option to. Some people weigh their kibble, and some people use teaspoons as measurements. 

4) I feed my boy at about 7pm. Lights go off at 9pm. So once per day.


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## readthebook2 (Jan 16, 2012)

Thank you Immortalia, I appreciate the guidance.

I did stop at the petstore yesterday and looked at the food so I could see the differences. So it looks like kitty food has between 18-20% fat and the lower cat food diet has around 8-10%, depending upon the food.

I was thinking of feeding Blue but after seeing the package sizing, I'm considering going with Innova because the bags were smaller and it just seemed like the food might be fresher by the time he gets to the bottom of the bag. According to what I've read on this site, Innova and Blue are both good foods.


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## ChubchubPookieMom (Jan 17, 2012)

Hi, I'm new though I've been lurking these forums for some time now(lol).
I have two hedgies. The first one we bought from this girl who got caught up in school work and such so couldn't give him much attention or care. He was was a bit chubby and hence his name, Chubchub. While the other came by surprise Christmas day as we thought he was bought already from the petstore before we were given the chance to get him. 
I'm not sure if this fits the topic completely but I read about the smaller hedgies here so I'll just ask. >< So, the one we got for Christmas, Pookie, he is I guess the twinkie on legs and runs like crazy all night and Chubchub well on the chunky side. He runs, but its not as much as Pookie's running. I'm currently feeding Natural Balance Green pea and duck to both of them with sunseed's vita exotics which was being fed to Chubchub before we go thim. I'm going to buy some more cat food to add to the mix as soon as I can and I want to keep them on the same food source. Any suggestions on which foods I should add that could benefit them both? thank you. c:


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Blue and Innova are both good foods.

@ChubchubPookieMom
Quite honestly? I doubt you are going to find something that will work with both hogs. Food with enough fat so that the little one doesn't lose weight will probably make the Chubchub gain weight, and anything that helps Chubchub maintain his weight will probably make Pookie lose weight.

Your best bet? Invest in a cat! To help with eating all the extra cat food  

More realistically speaking, most cat food only really last at most 6 months(If you are lucky! They may go stale before that and your hedgie will boycott eating it). And you are probably going to have to add a high fat food to Pookie's mix, while keeping Chubchubs mix as is(or supplementing the hedgehog food for anther good quality cat food, cause in general, NO commercial hedgehog food are up to par, and are "junk foods" at best. Although since you say Chubchub is on the chunkier side, keeping the hedgehog food will be fine). Pookie would benefit from having the hedgehog food taken out, and another higher fat content cat food added, maybe even kitten food.
If you find that you end up with food that you definitely will not use before it expires, donate to your local animal shelter. Let them know that you have hedgies, and that you'd rather donate half the food on a regular basis, than to have to throw away spoiled kibble. 

All of the brands recommended in the cat food list have higher fat recipes, so any of those would be fine. And if Pookie is a smaller sized hog and you think smaller kibbles would be beneficial, Spots Halo(Halo Spots? I always get it mixed up) have smaller kibble sizes and higher fat content. I think either NOW! or GO! have smaller sizes too, but I'm not 100% sure. 

So in the end, you'll probably end up with Pookie having an extra food to add in when you feed. If Chubchub has chunky problems, then he would not benefit from anything you may wish to add for Pookie. 

Do you have a scale to keep track of their weights? It will be your best bet on keeping track of them. See if they are gaining/losing/maintaining their weight.

To give you an example of some extremes... My boy weighs ~300g, and all his food is around the 10% fat mark. His weight stays constant.
Then we get hedgies like LG's Inky, who is under 300g, who pretty much needs lots of fat, lots of kitten food, lots of treats like many many mealworms, just to keep him from losing weight. And even then, she has problems with his weight fluctuating.


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## ChubchubPookieMom (Jan 17, 2012)

Okay thank you so much. I'll check the pet store tomorrow since I have to go buy my little hamsters a new salt lick. ;x It was so hard to find the one I have no as it is. I was planning on mixing them into a big bag but I'll keep them separate from each other and just give Pookie the more fat food. Hopefully he won't look so skinny it doesn't look healthy. >< I've been trying to get him to eat mealworms for 2 weeks now. He just does not want to eat them at all. ): I was thinking about getting crickets to see if he would eat those, though I'm not sure about their fat and protein content. x: I'm not sure where I could get a proper scale to weight them either. I was just thinking today that I wanted to weight them both too haha. P:


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Not sure where you are, but places like Walmart (I guess the US equivalent is Target? ) has some.

I bought mine from Walmart a few years back, it was just a digital kitchen scale. You'll want one that is digital and weighs in grams. Most of us weigh our hedgies in grams. Some people use scales for mail.

Crickets have a lower fat content. The insect analysis is here http://hedgehogcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=151

Edit - Although, looking at your sig, ChubChub doesn't look all that chubby. Do you have other pics? Perhaps start a new thread with some new pictures.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

Crickets (and mealworms) are good insect choices for them. As for a scale, a small kitchen scale is all you need. I got mine (non-digital) from Walmart for about $9, and digital ones will start at a few dollars more.


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## ChubchubPookieMom (Jan 17, 2012)

We actually have both in the US.  I'll check it out when I can. The scales would automatically measure them in grams, right? Since our unit is pounds and ounces I wouldn't know since I've never even seen a kitchen scale lol.
I've tried a can of crickets and they were smelly and wet and ignored instantly. I don't like bug at all, the mealworms I've finally gotten used to and I have myself giving them to Chubby instead of my boyfriend haha. Freeze dried crickets is my next choice and if its a hit i want to buy the live ones watch them hunt them down. 
I'll search though my phone for some. I have a video on my boyfriend's phone of him annointing that I think you can see but I'm not sure.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

As far as I know, basically all kitchen scales will be equipped to measure in both units. Mine does, and other ones I've seen have as well. You can double-check the box, which will tell you for sure.

Digital scales are preferred by most because they'll give you a very close measurement, but a non-digital scale will honestly do the job just fine. I chose mine over a digital one because the cheapest digital one available when I bought it was $11 more. Mine goes by 20 grams, but it's easy to approximate more specifically than that based on where the arrow points. For instance, when I weighed Ares for the first time yesterday (for the first time since we brought him home; he was weighed by the breeder the day we picked him up) the arrow stopped pretty much right between 180 and 200g, and I recorded his weight as 190. When I weighed a few other things to test it for accuracy, it would sometimes be between two marks but slightly more toward one than the other - basically demonstrating that it can go to the nearest multiple of 5, which is pretty much never going to be more than 2 or 3 grams less accurate than a digital scale.


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## Nicole753 (Dec 16, 2011)

ChubchubPookieMom said:


> Freeze dried crickets is my next choice and if its a hit i want to buy the live ones watch them hunt them down.


Just a quick note, I am pretty sure that freeze-dried insects should be avoided because they can cause digestive problems in some hedgehogs. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will come by and correct if I'm wrong, but you can always buy live crickets and then freeze them after. That way you can gut load them and they're even more nutritious for your hedgie.


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## ChubchubPookieMom (Jan 17, 2012)

Thank you. I was unaware of that. o.o I'm not sure I'm ready for live ones yet.. ><
I'll look into it and see what I can do about the cricket situation.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

The issue with freeze-dried crickets (and other insects) is more of a 'can potentially cause problems' thing, rather than an 'absolutely do not use them' thing. My boyfriend regularly fed his first hedgehog freeze-dried mealworms and crickets (as well as occasionally letting him hunt live crickets in the bathtub) and never had any problems. Not that I'm saying they're better than live ones, but some hedgehogs will even prefer them dead (either freeze-dried or frozen yourself and then thawed). For insects that are fed to them daily, freeze-dried isn't the best choice, but for a treat or for someone testing a hedgehog out for what different things they might like, freeze-dried is fine. It's something that's more likely to cause problems when given to them very frequently or in large amounts, but also not guaranteed to cause problems at all.


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

Freeze dried bugs aren't guaranteed to cause problems, but the fact that they have in the past is the reason HHC tells newer members not to feed the freeze dried bugs. We'd rather encourage people to feed live mealworms that don't have a marred history rather than tell them freeze dried *probably* won't cause any issues. Better safe than sorry.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree that it's good to let new hedgehog owners what can potentially cause problems, and what are better options. However, the 'better safe than sorry' thing is kind of a fine line, and it's not a reason to tell someone 'don't feed them this ever'; that's kind of like a new parent never giving their baby dairy products because there's the potential for lactose intolerance. It seems most practical to me to give good information about the pros and cons of various things, including possible risks (and the realistic chance of those risks, whether high or moderate or uncommon) and suggested alternatives, and then to let the person make the decision based off of that information.

For hedgehogs, something like 'don't use a wire wheel because there is a very high risk of injury' is perfectly valid; but I think in the case of freeze-dried insects, that's not an absolute thing one way or another. Like I said before, I agree that live > freeze-dried, and I don't think freeze dried should be used as a daily or significant part of a hedgehog's diet (whereas live or frozen-then-thawed crickets and mealworms definitely can be). My opinion, going off the known risks and likelihood of them, is that using them as a treat/occasional addition is fine, though the owner should of course be aware of possible problems so as to watch out for them. Clearly not everyone is going to evaluate that available information the same way that I do, which is why having the information - the straight facts, unbiased by any one person's choice for their own hedgehogs - is the most important thing for a new owner. I appreciate that some people will want to be particularly cautious, but whether a new member/new owner takes that route is up to them. :]


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

We definitely have a difference of opinion, haha. When I got Milly, I chose to go with using a water bowl instead of a bottle because I was told that bottles have, in the past, hurt hedgie's teeth & tongues. I wasn't given any specific examples or numbers on how often that happens, but I chose to be safe rather than sorry. I choose to do this with everything I do for her, because I am responsible for her & her health. I would hate myself if I chose to feed her freeze dried mealworms & ended up with her getting a fecal impaction based on the 'fecal impactions don't happen often so I should be fine feeding them' train of thought. And I can guarantee that if I fed freeze dried mealworms and had this happen and posted here to get health advice, the VERY first thing an experienced, well-respected member of HHC would tell me is something along the lines of "You shouldn't feed freeze dried bugs since they can cause impactions. Stick with the live ones"

In my eyes, a 'can potentially cause problems' thing is equivalent to 'absolutely do not use them'. If there are better options that are more safe, what's the point in feeding the lesser-used, potentially harmful option? That's all just my opinion of course, but I've been posting here for over 6 months and I've never seen someone say "It's okay to feed freeze dried bugs if it's not a large part of their diet" until now. Just sayin'.


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## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

hanhan27 said:


> When I got Milly, I chose to go with using a water bowl instead of a bottle because I was told that bottles have, in the past, hurt hedgie's teeth & tongues. I wasn't given any specific examples or numbers on how often that happens, but I chose to be safe rather than sorry.


I'm one of those that experienced a broken tooth with a bottle. I've had hedgehogs since the early/mid 90s, when the recommended way of doing things wasn't exactly the right thing to do. I, sadly, have experienced several of the issues we warn people against now. I am not proud to admit that, but do admit it because it was the way to do things back then, and I think others can learn from those horrible experiences. I have been mostly lucky in that I haven't lost a hedgehog from those stupid books that were published back then... many did as the dietary recommendations caused fatty liver disease.

And while, I have not had an impaction that required surgery or medical treatment, I did witness undigested crickets in one of my hedgehog's stool. He seemed to be constipated, or at least having difficulty in passing that bit of poop. I don't recall how many he had eaten that night, its been at least 6 or 7 years ago, but I never fed that many at a time, so it had to be only a couple. He had eaten them several times in the past with no issue. Then later I read a warning from Hood Petz regarding their customer's hedgehog with an impaction from freeze-dried mealworms.

My opinion, for what it is worth, feeding freeze-dried at this point is a risk and one which I'm not willing to take as I have no problem feeding live food to hedgehogs.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

All I'm saying is that the individual owner should be given the information to base the decision on, instead of having the decision made for them. You made your own choice for your hedgehog based on information you were given; you decided that any risk, no matter how small, is not worth taking. Kudos to you for taking the time and care to become informed, so as to make the best decisions for your pet - but just about everything involving hedgehog care has pros and cons (some things, obviously, with more of one than the other), and for whatever the reason may be, your decision might not be the same one as someone else. Just like how one person's approach to raising a child won't be the same as another. 

For instance, having to do with the freeze-dried thing, a new owner who's squeamish of bugs might decide, after looking at the information and different perspectives we've provided, that they want to start by using freeze-dried bugs as treats to 1. get a sense for how much their hedgehog likes them, and 2. let themselves get used to handling the dead bugs before moving to live ones. They may choose to be especially careful about frequency and amounts, and to watch for signs of constipation so as to stop using them right away if any problems arise.
Or, they may make the choice you've made, which is to absolutely not use freeze-dried insects at all, ever.
If the decision is made thoughtfully, after the person has looked closely at the information they've been provided, then I would consider either of those to be valid.


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  

I don't think it's smart to provide something for your hedgehog that could possibly cause issues. Like I said before, why take the chance when there's other options available? That's why I've never seen our long-term owners, moderators and respected breeders endorse freeze dried bugs. And that's why I felt the need to inform the OP that freeze dried aren't recommended - because you told them that they 'probably wouldn't cause an issue' and some of our newer or younger members are easily misled sometimes.  Like you said, having the straight facts is important for our new members, and because your boyfriend or whatever fed freeze dried mealworms in the past, you, too, are biased. The straight facts about freeze dried bugs is that they can and have caused digestive issues, but you can use them at your discretion if you feel that the risk isn't high enough to warrant not feeding them. Simple as that. 

Now whoever reads this thread knows both sides - you can feed them if you feel the risk is small enough, or you can not feed them if you'd rather avoid the risk and feed live bugs or no bugs at all.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I really don't understand why there is a continuing argument about this. It is a known fact that freeze dried meal worms can and have caused impaction deaths. It isn't like hedgehogs need to have freeze dried bugs or any bugs for that matter. Why would any responsible, caring owner risk feeding something that could cause death, when there are other, safe alternatives. :?

We are here for the benefit, health and welfare of hedgehogs. So lets see. Feed something that could cause death vs not feed that particular thing. Seems like a no brainer. I personally won't play Russian roulette with my hedgehogs lives.


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## Melanie (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm with you Nancy, well said.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk


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## alyssinreality (Jan 18, 2012)

I'm going to bring back a discussion from the beginning of this thread, hopefully it doesn't annoy anyone too much. Diggory is only 2 months old. I was having trouble getting him off hedgie food so I was advised on here to get him babycat food because he will take to it easier and it will be a good stepping stone. I'm really paranoid about him getting fat. Am I okay to feed it to him till the bag is gone? 6 months isn't too long right? He's around 278g right now.


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## Rainy (Jul 27, 2011)

ChubchubPookieMom said:


> Thank you. I was unaware of that. o.o I'm not sure I'm ready for live ones yet.. ><
> I'll look into it and see what I can do about the cricket situation.


I have started a mealworm farm and have noticed that Harvey likes the ones that I keep because I can gut load them and they are juicier than the ones stored in the fridge. As far as the crickets go...... :shock: I buy them live but throw them in the freezer as soon as I get home then I'll transfer them from the plastic bag to a storage container and put them back in the freezer (as soon as I'm sure they're good and dead and they can't jump up and poop in my mouth, because I know they are just waiting for my mouth to open so they can jump up there). Just don't freeze them for a half hour then give them to your hedgie. Someone did that and the crickets weren't dead yet. They came back.......(probably just to jump up and poop in someone's mouth -- because they do that ya know). Keep them in your freezer and you'll be fine. Pull the crickets an hour before you feed or just zap them in the microwave for about 10 seconds (because those little mouth pooping jumping boogers deserve it).

Just to let you know, I'm not a big cricket fan. Mealworms are fine though. No jumping capabilities. :lol:


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