# How about this food (photo)?



## Buddysmom (Apr 20, 2019)

This looks like good Hedgie food, but I’m still learning so I ask your advice before I buy it. Thanks!


----------



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I'll give you its not terrible hedgehog food. 
But the protein is pretty high at 37% it recommended to keep it no higher than 35%
The freeze dried mealworms aren't good, too many can cause constipation, and they hole NO nutrients at all.
Also its contains different berries. It doesn't even look like its a biscuit at all.

To be honest all hedgehog foods aren't good. You'll be better looking at cat biscuits even small dog breed biscuit.


----------



## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

In the grand scheme of things, it’s probably one of the better hedgehog foods I’ve seen. With that being said, there are some threads on this forum about hedgehog impaction (constipation) due to being fed too many freeze dried worms that they can’t properly digest. I’d suggest checking those threads out to assess for yourself. I’ve personally used freeze dried in the past but never as a staple in their diet which I can assume is where the major problems come in. 
It’s true though that “hedgehog quality” foods are almost never up to par. I use a quality dry cat diet. Look for ingredients that list specific animal meals instead of ‘poultry’ or ‘fish’. The shrimp and crab is a great example- instead of listing ‘seafood’ meal they list the type. Just something else to consider!
I’m sure all this information can be overwhelming so don’t feel bad for asking questions. I don’t have the link right now but there’s a GREAT thread on this forum that thoroughly discusses their diet needs in a simple way!


----------



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Have a read through of this. Its a beginners guid to hedgehog nutrition, it explains what to look for in a food, in the most simple way.

https://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/index.php#/topics/23034

Aj.t - The freeze dried meal worms are okay sometimes, in small amounts, but yes when its part of their every day main diet, thats when the problems of impaction comes in and starts causing things like constipation.


----------



## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I dont believe this is being marketed as a main diet; it clearly states treat on the bag, and only contains 70g. It's not the worst treat (though it is very low quality), but it is a terrible choice as your hedgehogs main source of nutrition. It is mostly dried mealworms (which can cause issues if fed regularly in such large amounts), and the pellets that it does contain are composed of low quality ingredients like fish meal and poultry meal. _Specified_ meals (i.e chicken meal, beef meal, etc) are fine but _unspecified_ meals like poultry meal are best avoided.

Food marketed for hedgehogs in general is just best avoided, I havent yet come across a single one that's actually high quality. As already mentioned, you're best off sticking to a high quality cat or dog food. Cat food is most recommended, as many hedgehogs have difficulty with dog biscuits; so they have to be broken up. There's a list of brands over here, if you want to check it out.


----------



## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

I know figuring out a proper food can be confusing. The main thing to remember is that you want to look at...
- the percentages of protein, fat and fiber
- the main ingredients (the first few listed ingredients)

This is explained real clearly at this link:
https://www.hedgehogcentral.com/for...3034-beginner-s-guide-hedgehog-nutrition.html
If you click over to this link, I think it will make much more sense and help take away the confusion. Once you've read that, then you can check out the following chart.

Here is a chart that shows specific brands and then for each one it lists out...
- percentages of protein, fat and fiber
- the main ingredients

http://www.volcanoviewhedgehogs.com/kibble-list.html


----------



## Buddysmom (Apr 20, 2019)

Ok great, thanks. I knew freeze dried worms are a no no for regular diet that’s why I was concerned about the rest of the stuff in there. I’ll go with dry cat food and live mill worms as a treat.
Any dry cat food you all use and or recommend? Thanks!


----------



## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

Ha! We were posting here at the same time.


----------



## Buddysmom (Apr 20, 2019)

Are these any better than freeze dried ones?


----------



## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

Buddysmom said:


> Are these any better than freeze dried ones?


Canned insects are a comparable substitute to live definitely! I've never personally used them but they carry most all of the same nutrients. I have heard though that they tend to be pretty smelly so brace yourself!

The problem with freeze dried is that it takes away the enzymes that help digest the chitin and canned are just gooey preserved insects so none of their nutrients have been "zapped" out &#128578;


----------



## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

Did you ever checkout those links in my post when we happened to post at the same time?

You can get live mealworms at any pet store. I use them for my birds too. They come in a little container in what has the appearance of shavings or sawdust. They are refrigerated. I use a plastic spoon to sift through and find them. They start moving about once they get warm.


----------



## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I always get confused on the issue of dried vs canned insects.

We're always told to avoid dried insects entirely, or at the very least keep them as the rare occasional snack, as the drying process destroys the enzymes which allow the animal to digest the chitin found in the exoskeleton. Without those enzymes, the animal is unable to properly digest the chitin and it can lead to issues with impaction.

But&#8230; basic biology will teach you that heat can destroy enzymes, and canned insects clearly state that they are "cooked in the can" - implying that heat was used. So what makes them different to dried bugs? The fact that theyre moist, so the exoskeleton is softer thus a little easier than dried to digest?...

Personally; I absolutely do not agree that canned insects are a comparable substitute for live entirely. I use canned occasionally, just to add variety; just for snails & locusts. But I feed live black soldier fly larvae, mealworms, (occasional) morio & wax worms, dubia roaches, crickets, and more recently added giant orange woodlice. < You dont technically 'need' that much variety, but they are insectivores and they do love their bugs. I would argue that canned insects are a fine _complementary_ feed, but live should still be offered. IMO, at least. 

^ Canned also dont last very long in the fridge, and it can get expensive pretty quickly.


----------



## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

Freeze drying is an extremely low temperature dehydration process where the product is frozen and then separated from the ice. The freezing will destroy and break down a fair number of things including enzymes. Canned insects are simply cooked- like if you were to make a mealworm stir fry. The heating process isn’t as harsh as the freeze drying process and thus retains most of the nutritional value. 

Buddysmom, since you asked if canned insects were better than freeze dried then yes you are correct. They are more costly though as Emc said than live insects. Live insects will also provide a more enriching feeding for your hedgehog, but depending on how much of his diet are insects every day, they’re a perfectly fine substitution to live.


----------



## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Well, there’s two different drying processes: freeze drying, and then the more common method - drying via heat.

Heat dried mealworms are dried at low temperatures, so this is why I don’t really understand why canned insects - if they are supposedly cooked at similar temps - are somehow more equal to dried insects?… It just doesn’t make a whole lotta sense to me. I think (personally) that both are pretty poor nutritionally speaking (cooking process will also lose you some nutrients!) and are far from equal or being a substitute to live feeders.

I’d genuinely love if someone could explain, because I’ve wondered about it for the longest time haha. I’m not saying that canned insects are ‘bad’, I just think it’s a stretch to suggest that they could be used as a replacement to live.

I understand you asked if canned are better than dried, Buddysmom, and I really did not mean to bring this off topic (though I do believe its somewhat relevant, given the question at hand!). But I am personally of the opinion that canned insects really arent a whole lot better than dried, and that live insects really do need to be offered. They make an absolutely fine treat, but the majority of their insects should be live.


----------



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Canned insects are cooked yes, but it depends on the method they use to cook it - all companies that do canned insects do it differently.
But also they arent cooked for as long as the dried ones, just enough that the insects get killed, while the dried ones are left in to completely dry out therefore loosing ALL nutrition they had. 
If the people are cooking them by steaming them (which is possible to do) then they wont loose as many nutrients.

But either way they are still MORE nutritious than dried or freeze dried. Which is why they can be a replacement to live insects. 

Live insects will always be the better option yes. Or buy them live gut load them for 24 hours then put them in the freezer to freeze them for 24-48 hours to kill them yourself. Either way these two are always going to be the most nutritious methods to canned, dried or freeze dried.

To me the canned insects are in the middle of the dried and freeze dried (being a best avoid) and the live/ frozen to death in your freezer after their last meal.

Zoomed and herp are the better ones to go for since they do try to keep all nutrients - Other ones I cant be 100% sure since I dont know every single one out there.

Also canned dont last long un the fridge yes, but you can empty them out the can into a small plastic container and put it in the freezer, they last you longer then as they can then be kept in there for months.


----------



## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I just don't believe we should be encouraging people to use canned insects over live for an insectivorous species unless there is *genuine* reason to do so. I.e; the hedgehog, for whatever reason, won't eat anything else or if they are being used as added variety to a diet where live insects are already fed.

We really have no idea what cooking process they use (unless it states it on other cans? But it does not state it on mine), so we have no idea how the enzymes are affected, nor do we have any scope on nutrient loss at all. We also cannot know how nutritious those canned insects really are - what were they fed prior to being killed? Bugs are just empty shells if they werent gut loaded with a high quality diet.

Like yes, they may be a little better than dried... but I just don't believe they are an appropriate supubstutute to live feed.


----------



## Buddysmom (Apr 20, 2019)

So confusing and stressful!! I read the links above, I researched other sites, and I’ve got the just of what to look for but when I go to the store I can’t find what I need! The ingredients lists are still junk! What brands do you all use? Please help, I’m freaking out!!


----------



## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

I too had a hard time finding ones from the list that were available locally. I was able to find some eventually.

I use a mix of Pure Balance chicken & brown rice formula and Wellness Core grain free deboned chicken, turkey. The Wellness is a little high in protein but since mine is still young (like yours), they can handle the higher protein. 

If you do find something, remember to transition by mixing old with the new.


----------



## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

For kibble, I use a combination of a few foods; Acana, Orijen, AATU, & James Wellbeloved. Some of the Acana and Orijen foods can be very high in protein though, and can also on the higher end for fat (20%), but my girl is extremely active, and it works perfectly fine for us. 

^ I use the cat version of all of the above - just because the kibble size is best suited to hedgehogs, but you could always break up dog kibbles and use that if you really wanted to.


----------



## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

Oh... I should have stated mine were cat foods.


----------



## Buddysmom (Apr 20, 2019)

Mecki said:


> I too had a hard time finding ones from the list that were available locally. I was able to find some eventually.
> 
> I use a mix of Pure Balance chicken & brown rice formula and Wellness Core grain free deboned chicken, turkey. The Wellness is a little high in protein but since mine is still young (like yours), they can handle the higher protein.
> 
> If you do find something, remember to transition by mixing old with the new.


I see you're in the states as I am as well, so do you get your food from a pet supply store or big box store?


----------



## Buddysmom (Apr 20, 2019)

Do I need to mix kibbles or is it ok to just go with one? Then give treats of fruit mill worms and veggies?


----------



## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

You don't have to mix kibbles - but mixing does have it's benefits. Unfortunately, despite pet food companies being well ware that many animals are picky and don't take kindly to change, they change food recipes - not frequently, but it happens. Having (at least) two different brands of food gives you something to 'fall back on' should one brand change their recipe and your hog refuse to eat it, because at least you have the other one. Additionally, recalls are another unfortunate thing - hedgehogs are often like having a picky toddler, and they do not take kindly to sudden change. So having (again, at least) two different brands is kind of like a saviour should one brand disappear from store shelves for a couple weeks.

It's also just nice to mix kibbles to offer more variety to your hogs diet. But no, it's technically not necessary, but it is recommended. 

Live insects also aren't viewed as 'treats'; they should be a regular inclusion of your animals daily diet.


----------



## Buddysmom (Apr 20, 2019)

Ok thanks!


----------



## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

Buddysmom said:


> I see you're in the states as I am as well, so do you get your food from a pet supply store or big box store?


Both. One kind was available at Wal-Mart and the other at Petsmart (or was it Petco?).

I bought the smallest bag of each and keep them in my refridge. A hedgehog eats so little, it seems like it will take forever to use up the bags. Figured they'd stay fresher this way.

I have a small container near the cage in which I have an equal mix of both foods that I refill as needed.


----------



## Buddysmom (Apr 20, 2019)

Mecki said:


> I too had a hard time finding ones from the list that were available locally. I was able to find some eventually.
> 
> I use a mix of Pure Balance chicken & brown rice formula and Wellness Core grain free deboned chicken, turkey. The Wellness is a little high in protein but since mine is still young (like yours), they can handle the higher protein.
> 
> If you do find something, remember to transition by mixing old with the new.


How much do you feed your hog per day? Cat food doesn't have recommended amount for a hog! Lol the food I'm feeding him now says 1-2oz a day. It equals to 4 tablespoons.


----------



## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

It depends on how active your hedgehog is and if you’re using other foods as part of his base diet (insects,veggies). I give Christina one big tablespoon of kibble along with insects, some dried chicken, some treats of other kibbles. I’ve found that she won’t eat much more than a tablespoon of kibble nightly and I hate waste, so that’s why I give her a tablespoon. She’s also very active and pretty skinny so I don’t worry too much about what she’s eating. With a heavier hog though, you’d want to take fat consumption into consideration.


----------



## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

I have a dish that holds 2 measuring tablespoons. I fill it each day. Sometimes he eats a little during the day (don't know when since I don't see him doing so) and then more at night. By morning I will see that one half to 1 tbsp is left in the dish. So from that I see he eats 1 to 1.5 tbsp each day.


----------



## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

Some people will recommend leaving a bit more in the dish so that they do have the option of snacking during the day, but I personally don’t like the idea simply because it’s wasteful to end up throwing out the kibble that could have been eaten the next day if it was kept in a container. 

If you can tell how much he’s eating, give that to him each night. Offer some treats BEFORE giving him the kibble so he’s still hungry for the yummy bonding/training snacks. Every so often I add an extra small scoop of kibble to see if she wants to eat more. If she ends up eating it all, I keep that portion steady until the next time she doesn’t eat it all.


----------



## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

Aj.t said:


> Some people will recommend leaving a bit more in the dish so that they do have the option of snacking during the day, but I personally don't like the idea simply because it's wasteful to end up throwing out the kibble that could have been eaten the next day if it was kept in a container.
> 
> If you can tell how much he's eating, give that to him each night. Offer some treats BEFORE giving him the kibble so he's still hungry for the yummy bonding/training snacks. Every so often I add an extra small scoop of kibble to see if she wants to eat more. If she ends up eating it all, I keep that portion steady until the next time she doesn't eat it all.


That all makes sense.

Since my hedgehog is still young (under 3 months) and a bit on the small side, I don't mind having some waste. Better that, for now, then him being hungry.


----------



## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

That’s a good point I did fail to mention! Free feeding is perfectly fine as they’re growing because- well- they’re growing! Once they reach a mature size it’s best to watch their weight


----------

