# Breeder Question: Need HELP with cat food mix



## Justine (May 3, 2012)

Ok, I haven't been around long, but long enough to know I am very confused regarding the hedgehog diet considerations. My hogs were started on Spikes Ultra, a commercial hedgehog food. But the more I read, the more confusion I find. Most breeders have a "mix" of cat foods. Then when I ask the science behind the "mix", I am not given logical answers. I have found a lot say they just do what their mentors did or created a mix themselves. I understand HH should have around 33% PRO. Based on my nutritional knowledge I also understand they need a balance of fiber to prevent kidney and liver disease. SO, if anyone would be so generous as to share their mix with me, and the rationale behind the mix they created, I would be ever so grateful. IMO, it is just as reckless to throw commercial cat foods together, as it is to buy commercial HH food.

Thanks!!


----------



## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm not a breeder, but I do have input on the logic behind the "mix".

1) Pet foods have a tendency of randomly changing their kibble shape, and ingredients without really notifying the general public, so a particular food may be a favourite one day, and hated the next. I have 2 personal examples. My boy used to love Natural Balance Green Pea and Duck, when they were using their old formula. Since the change, the kibble went from dark brown normal kibble, to a light yellow, more crispy texture kibble. My boy turned his nose up at it. Second incidence was with Blue Buffalo. Their kibble shape used to be Y shaped. It was easy for my boy to eat. Then they randomly changed it to the cylinder shape that you often see, my boy does not like that shape, and will not eat that shape, unless I have cut every individual kibble in half for him. In both those cases, if I did not have a mix, he would have starved, rather than eaten. Mixing allows us to have backup options, if one food becomes a non-favourite, there's still 1 or 2 other food in the mix that they will still eat.

2) We don't really know what their nutritional needs are. In mixing, we hope to cover more bases and give more variety. Hedgehogs are notoriously picky about their food, variety in kibble allows us to bring variety to their diet.

2b) I like mixing different proteins. So in my mix, I've used Wellness->Blue Buffalo->Authority which is my chicken group. I started with Wellness, and moved to BB, then Authority purely for kibble shape. My duck group is NB Green Pea and Duck -> Fromm's Mature Gold. Then I have my lamb, which is Kats n Flocken Solid Gold. So in these, I have 3 different proteins, Chicken, Duck and Lamb. 

Now, I only have 1 hedgehog, so thankfully, I also have 2 cats who help with depleting the supply of cat food. :lol:


----------



## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

Immortalia knows her stuff  

I also want to mention that in addition to feeding a mix of different cat foods for the whole trying-to-cover-nutritional-bases thing, I also think about the taste. I know if I had to eat one type of food every day for 3 years, I would end up being disgusted with that food... I like the idea of using cat foods made with different meats because that has to be more fun than the same kibble day after day, right? lol. 

I currently have a mix of four cat foods. 

Blue Buffalo Basics (Turkey & potato) - 30% protein, 12% fat, first two ingredients are deboned turkey and turkey meal
Blue Buffalo Indoor Health (Chicken & brown rice) - 32% protein, 15% fat, first two ingredients are deboned chicken and chicken meal
Purina One Beyond (Salmon & brown rice) - 33% protein, 14% fat, first two ingredients are salmon and chicken meal
Royal Canin Babycat 34 - 34% protein, 25% fat, first two ingredients are chicken meal and rice

The fat content in RC babycat is way to high for a lot of hedgies and I haven't seen many people recommend using it because once hedgies start eating it, you can have a hard time getting them to eat anything else. I have my hog on the Royal Canin babycat because she's an avid runner and I haven't found any other way of being able to keep her from losing weight. About 30% of her kibble is the RC and the other 70% is made up of the other three foods, so I did the math to verify that her fat and protein percentages were reasonable for her specific needs.

If I understand what I've read correctly, protein percentages should be between 28 and 33% because having too much protein in the diet can affect a hedgehog negatively (kidney or liver problems, I can't remember. I keep thinking it can cause fatty liver disease? Not sure).

A lot of what is recommended for a hedgehog's diet is mostly combined opinions from different breeders and long-term owners who have experienced things like FLD happening because of a cat food with 40% protein, obesity due to feeding foods with 20% fat content, etc. The fact is, hedgehogs haven't been kept as pets for all that long and there just hasn't been enough research done for the hedgehog community to know without a doubt that they are feeding the "right" things. I recommend reading through some different threads here about diet and forming your own opinion. So many people come through here saying "Tell me what I should feed my hedgehog" and they go out and buy whatever it is that the first person tells them to without researching anything. In my personal opinion, when it comes to our hog's diets, we should try to follow the guidelines we have been given as far as not feeding foods with corn as the first ingredient, not feeding 'too much' protein and keeping the fat content at a level that will help our hedgie maintain a consistent weight, but ultimately it is OUR decision what goes into their food bowls. We are each individually responsible for the lives of our little ones. Don't take what you read as fact, because very little of what is said about hedgehogs is truly fact. There are some great opinions and observations and speculations, but in the end, you need to do what you feel comfortable doing for your hedgie.


----------



## Justine (May 3, 2012)

Yes I understand all of what was stated above. What I am looking for are ratios of high PRO food, with lower PRO or "junk" cat foods. If you mix two PRO you still get high PRO...so that is still puzzling for me. I will agree in the end, I need to do my own label reading as I already know what the healthy diet considerations are for hedgies. I guess that means I make my own mix. 

Thanks for the input...


----------



## Justine (May 3, 2012)

Fat ratio...is it supposed to be about 13%??


----------



## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

If you have a cat food with 35% protein and a cat food with 29% protein and you are feeding it 50/50 as a mix, you just find the average of the two. 35+29=64, 64/2=32. So in that case, the mix of the two foods you are feeding has 32% protein. But, if it's a situation where you free feed and your hedgie eats one kind first, using that math doesn't work. 

I personally offer a total of 75 kibbles a night because my Mildred eats 65-70 kibbles in an average night, then in the morning I know exactly how much she ate. That's just me though, and a lot of people think kibble counting is too much work haha.

From what I have seen recommended here at HHC, if you have an average hog who isn't a marathon runner OR super lazy, you want to keep the fat content under 15%. Young, growing hedgies and avid wheelers might need a bit more to maintain a healthy weight (that's the situation I'm in - my hog runs like there's no tomorrow so I'm unable to feed her the low fat cat foods because she loses weight too quickly). So, 13% would be fine for your hog if it's an average sized hog. I think.  Don't take that as fact because I'm not an expert!


----------



## Justine (May 3, 2012)

I believe I have cracked the formula. For myself at least. TOTW feline has 32% PRO. But a high fat content. So if I mix another good quality weight control feline, I can get the fat content down to an acceptable percentage. :lol: 

Thanks...you kept me thinking, which is all I needed to do!


----------



## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Another reason to have a mix... for when the pet food industry goes into self destruct mode... meaning when they have massive recalls. That way if a food you are feeding gets recalled you have a different brand to fall back on that is not new to your hedgehog and will not cause a starvation strike or GI upset.

Hanhan, you have it pretty spot on. I aim for between 15-10% fat with a normal active hedgehog. With my extremely active hedgehogs, I raise that amount and with one who is less active I try to lower it and the calorie content. Right now I have 2 that are on 18% fat, anything lower and they drop weight fast. My other eats the 18% fat foods as a very tiny part of her diet, the rest of her diet is much lower to help balance it out.

I also try to pick foods of different brands (for the above mentioned reason) and are from different types of protein (chicken, turkey & duck currently, was going to add lamb but not adding foods while this recall is going on). I also look at the rest of the components and try to pick foods that are composed of a little differently (different fruits, veggies, grains).

I also try to pick foods that are small for little mouths, and are easy to crunch.

When you start to work on it, it gets really hard to get all the things you want.


----------



## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

That will work, as long as your hedgie is willing to eat both food equally.

Edit : Opps Kalandra posted while I was typing...LOL..my post goes to the OP's not Kalandra's


----------



## Justine (May 3, 2012)

If you are feeding 18% fat all the time, how are you supplementing special needs or baby hedgehogs needs? What about the risk of fatty liver and renal issues? 

I guess I will try a mix at the 13-15% fat and monitor weights to see what happens. Omitting expectant moms and weaning babies, whom I supplement spikes with kitten food....

As far as whether or not they will eat both, I plan on processing to a small kibble instead of cylinder shapes. Trial and error I guess. I will mix it with their routine Spikes and see what happens.


----------



## Kalandra (Aug 25, 2008)

Justine, reread my post. The two eating 18% fat are special needs as they drop weight fast. They are marathoners. Putting in nearly 10 miles of running a night (I've recorded 14.25 for the one before, ok so technically he is a half-marathoner). They burn off the calories. I'm unconcerned about FLD with these two. I've had others like this, and fed them this level of fat for most of their lives. Renal & FLD were not what ended their lives, cancer of unrelated areas was. Once they start to slow down, then I look to moving them back to my "normal mix." 

If I feed these two less calories they drop weight. One was on a bad diet when he came in, he also had a wire wheel and a 2 sq ft cage. When given a good solid surfaced wheel and a 6 sq ft cage, he learned he could run and not hurt his feet. He also refused to changed diet for a while. The result was him losing weight every a night for a while (I saw 10-15 gram a few times), going from just under 300 grams down to 240 before I got him eating a better diet and increased his calorie intake. Since he is now eating 18% fat foods, he has slowly regained back some weight and I mean slowly, its been almost 3 months since he arrived and he is still thin and his weight fluctuates a lot. But the top I have seen is still under 320g (340 is where I would like him at eventually).

My 'normal' hedgehog gets only a couple of grams of the high fat food and the majority is food under 15%. She was on a higher percentage until recently as she was a growing baby (gotta love it when a hedgehog is turned into a rescue station at under the age of 3 months). It lowers the percentage well into a safe range for her. She picks out the high fat foods first and eats the rest later. I like to provide these to her as she enjoys them a lot. It keeps a little excitement in her kibble. Plus if she ever needs it a bit higher, she's already used to the higher stuff and I can increase the amount easily.

If I get one that is gaining weight on the normal diet, I look at the kCal/kg amounts and look for foods that are low, so that the hedgehogs can continue to eat plenty but have a lower calorie intake.


----------

