# This Forum



## Lopi (Apr 11, 2017)

Is very helpful.

That being said I feel many members from newbies to moderators often have a serious attitude problem.

The general tone of many of the most frequent posters is condescending, preachy and accusatory.

While you may believe this is the best approach to provide facts and advice, it's not. People are much more likely to respond to a tone of empathy and concern vs a "what you're doing is going to kill your hedgehog" style response.

Hedgehogs are complicated pets and we don't have tens of thousands of years experience in caring for them like we do with cats and dogs.

The "shake someone out of complacency" approach many members here use is most likely going to drive users away, and ultimately reduce the amount of quality?advice they receive. Many of you are experts with hedgehogs, but either don't care about being decent to a fellow owner or have forgotten how.

A simple "I wouldn't do that because" or "that isn't such a good idea, in fact poor hoggie could get hurt (with a link explaining why) is much nicer and more useful than "you're doing it wrong, enjoy the vet bill".

In fact there are times where a dozen assumptions are made about a post while writing a matter of fact (and often rude) response that it seems to me that many of you are eager to put someone down instead of being helpful.

The forum is by far the best out there for information, and many if not all of you are good people, but I read just about every post and can't believe some of the nastiness many new owners are forced to swallow. 

It's scary owning a pet, they are lucky owners to have come across this wealth of information, I say we don't make them feel like horrible people for stopping by in their moment of need.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

I think there are a few factors in this. 
This forum has members from across the globe, with that comes different mannerisms and ways of communication. 
Most people have lives outside of here. We want to answer the question but may not explain things fully or have the time to do it with as much tact as may be expected. 
Sometimes we get a member who has shown over and over they don't want advice and won't take it no matter how it's presented. Those people generally get short answers. For a few of us, it's easier than giving the long answer including the lecture, so we keep it short sweet and to the point.



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## Lopi (Apr 11, 2017)

twobytwopets said:


> I think there are a few factors in this.
> This forum has members from across the globe, with that comes different mannerisms and ways of communication.
> Most people have lives outside of here. We want to answer the question but may not explain things fully or have the time to do it with as much tact as may be expected.
> Sometimes we get a member who has shown over and over they don't want advice and won't take it no matter how it's presented. Those people generally get short answers. For a few of us, it's easier than giving the long answer including the lecture, so we keep it short sweet and to the point.
> ...


Ok, makes sense for people who refuse to listen, but if you don't have time to write a thoughtful and polite reply, don't write anything.

This is basic decency in my opinion.

The fact that people are posting from all over, doesn't excuse people in full command of the English language being curt, rude or disrespectful.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

I agree. 
Where someone lives can dictate how a person interacts with others. Take something as neutral as paying for groceries. Some places it's considered rude to not visit with the person ringing you up. Other locations would assume you are crazy or have a partner who is stuffing their pockets with merchandise.


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

Im with you. With newbies I'm nice and try to explain things, but when they turn stubborn and fight every thing said then I'm not nice anymore. 

However, I know who you are talking about and I hadn't seen him/her until recently and I agree, every response is like he has a chip on his shoulder and has a rude attitude and "tone" instead on explaining the reason why something shouldn't be done.


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## Lopi (Apr 11, 2017)

Artemis-Ichiro said:


> Im with you. With newbies I'm nice and try to explain things, but when they turn stubborn and fight every thing said then I'm not nice anymore.
> 
> However, I know who you are talking about and I hadn't seen him/her until recently and I agree, every response is like he has a chip on his shoulder and has a rude attitude and "tone" instead on explaining the reason why something shouldn't be done.


Eh, if it was isolated to one person, I'd have PM'd them.

I have zero authority over how this forum operates, of course, I just remember lurking here before posting and feeling like if I posted anything without a million clarifications I'd get torn to shreds for being a bad owner.

Truth is, ain't no one here who doesn't love hogs, but I think a lot of us have become hogs ourselves and are super defensive and ready to spike anyone who might be committing a transgression against us :twisted:


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

You didn't call the person out but one has been more "active and aggressive" lately.

I'm no saint and get aggravated but usually with repeat offenders I'm usually nice to newbies.

Also, as mentioned before, sometimes people sound like they are rude but it's just because English is not their first language (mine is not by the way). I have a friend from Italy and at the beginning I thought she was s little rude, then I realized it was a cultural thing + the language. Lol



Lopi said:


> Artemis-Ichiro said:
> 
> 
> > Im with you. With newbies I'm nice and try to explain things, but when they turn stubborn and fight every thing said then I'm not nice anymore.
> ...


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## Alcole6185 (Jul 14, 2016)

I would like to add that I see a lot of responses talking about "looking through past topics in the forums" and "searching and reading topics before posting" because the question has been answered. Yes there are many topics here. However, many people are of varying levels of ability with the internet and using this on a phone isn't the easiest. Plus, if they have another question, they get shut down because the forum is out of date. I will say this forum is amazing but it's important to respond as if the person is new and answering the question for the first time. They are here to do the best for their hedgie 95% of the time. I'll also say there are many people on this forum and even the stickies are a wonderful resource and the people here are great helps for these critters.


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## Mix (Nov 5, 2016)

Completely agree. There are some people that I just can't be bothered with anymore. Have been rude to me and others, and most of the time they are the ones who are the most active, unfortunately. I understand the whole global thing, people around the globe definitely speak different and have different manners, but it doesn't mean you can't be a friendly human being.


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## Matvei (Mar 8, 2017)

It's the internet.
Not every response will elicit a warm fuzzy feeling.
The main problem is there are a lot of people who don't want to take the advice given to them.
So then why even bother?
It's not just this forum, a lot of forums on the internet are exactly the same. In fact, most of them are.


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## Alcole6185 (Jul 14, 2016)

In my case, on other forums I'm more active on since I know more about those topics, I take everything as a new person honestly interested in the topic and explain it nicely. If I see them posting trash talk or saying they don't care, then I will begin to stop posting or say something about why I'm not going to be helpful. Yes it's the internet, yes some people are mean or don't take advice, but there is also a lot of good and bad advice out there. It's not so easy to find especially for Hedgies. I've seen people jump on others about asking the simplest questions. Some of those posters are under 18 and trying their best or to get the right info. It's difficult. If you can't be nice and answer questions with an open mind and a positive attitude you are going to alienate people instead of helping hedgehogs out there. So if you can't be nice or positive about a new poster or person, can you at least do the decency of being nice and helpful so the hedgehog gets taken care of....?


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## Lopi (Apr 11, 2017)

Matvei said:


> It's the internet.
> Not every response will elicit a warm fuzzy feeling.
> The main problem is there are a lot of people who don't want to take the advice given to them.
> So then why even bother?
> It's not just this forum, a lot of forums on the internet are exactly the same. In fact, most of them are.


What a terrible argument.

"It's the internet so it's a certain way"

LOL

The internet is what we make of it, there aren't rules dictating? we treat each other like trash. Quite frankly a lot of the responses I read on the internet? would warrant a punch to the face if it was a real face to face interaction.

Doesn't mean this Forum needs to be that way, especially since it's purpose is to better the lives of hedgehogs and their owners.

You guys act like being polite is the hardest thing in the world. Who cares if people are stubborn, would you tell someone face to face how if they didn't do something a certain way they'd have to enjoy a juicy vet bill? That's just mean. Not even an appropriate response while frustrated.

All I'm saying is, if you are going to post nasty and mean things, let someone else answer who has the patience.


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## ArizonaHazelnut (Nov 16, 2016)

I would agree there is usually no reason to be mean when replying to posts, especially with new owners. I have see a few instances where someone seemed to almost be "trolling" by asking for advice, then going and doing the exact opposite (usually something proven to be dangerous to hedgehogs) while being extremely rude and confrontational to those who tried to reach out and help them. In such situations, I can see how it is difficult for people to have patience, and can understand why someone may need to be blunt in their reply in order to get the point across (which may sometimes seem rude or mean). I can understand because there have been times over my life when someone has had to be very blunt and up-front with me in order for me to understand that something needed to be changed or be considered in a different light. Have my feelings been hurt from time to time? Sure, but sometimes those responses have helped me pause and re-evaluate...and led to further growth. Hear me, though, when I say I don't believe there is a reason to be exceptionally rude or cruel. 

I would whole-heartedly agree that in online communities, there are many different cultures, language barriers, thought processes, world views, etc. that may influence online discussion. What is rude in some cultures is considered proper in others, which is why one must always consider such influences when engaging in online discussion. There is also very little that can be done to control how others interact online (unless someone is banned or blocked from a site). There can be a lot of negativity, as well as a lot of positivity. Not an excuse for poor behavior, but simply a fact of online use in today's world.

One of my favorite sayings is "you cannot control how behave, you can only control how you respond." I think this perfectly fits this situation, as we can only be responsible for our actions and responses. Personally, I try to make the best out of every situation and, quite frankly, ignore those who post rude comments. It's not worth my time or energy to get worked up over them, so I try to focus more on those who are being encouraging and providing helpful information. I greatly appreciate all of you who have engaged with me, and I have learned so much from this site!

Cheers everyone! :smile:


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

As one of the two moderators here I'm sorry to hear this but I also understand where it's coming from. There are members who can be rude and we try to take care of that in private with the member. If that doesn't work then we do put them on moderation or in extreme cases remove them from the forum. 

I also know that there are times that I can be blunt and not always say things in the nicest way. I don't want to make excuses for myself but it usually happens out of frustration and I regret it later. I could go back later and delete it as mods have that ability but I don't think it's fair to when other members can't do it.

Please feel free to private message myself or Lillysmommy if you feel that a member is out of line or even if one of us are out of line.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Agreed with....well, everyone, kinda. :lol: 

I understand people getting frustrated when a question has been asked a thousand times, or if someone is posting on a 5-year old thread. I get frustrated too! But we do get a lot of younger members on here, international members, and also people that aren't really used to forums. A lot of things are based around Facebook groups & other social media now, so not everyone is used to how forums work. I do like that questions are usually quick to get answered on here, but that's not always a good thing if the answer is harsh or unhelpful & drives the person away. If you can't take an extra minute when you read it to explain why not to do something, best to come back later. If you're frustrated with someone, write up a response, wait 10 minutes and re-read it. The nice thing about a forum is you can self-edit before you post. Take the time to do it.

Yes, we do get harsh once people are repeat offenders for not listening to the rules, not taking advice, or blatantly stating that they're going to do what they want, regardless of the effect on the animal. I think that's fair, though it may not necessarily be helpful. I know I've done it before too. Sometimes it does actually make the person stop & think. More often, it doesn't really do much and we end up closing the thread as it starts to get inflammatory. As much as I'd like, we can't make everyone do the right thing for their animals and it sucks. So venting & being angry happens.

I do ask that people please leave forum rule regulation to the moderators. Like Nikki said, please feel free to message either of us if you think something's getting out of hand, if you see rules broken, etc. Usually I don't mind much if people help with old threads that get brought back up, but I wish people would a) be nicer about telling people that rule, and b) answer their question while you're at it, especially if it's really simple. Just yelling at them for posting on an old thread isn't likely to encourage them to post their own thread, especially as these are often first posts from new people. 

I am hoping to update the rules sticky at some point. I want to a) make it easier to see/find and perhaps see if there's a way to have people read the rules before they can post, and b) make it simpler to read through. I'm hoping that might help with the old thread thing.

Honestly, thank you for posting this, Lopi, as I tend to agree with you. I try really hard to make my replies sound friendly & to reason with people who are being stubborn. Trust me, I'm usually just as frustrated as anyone. I just rant at my friends instead. :lol: They've let me do this for 8 years, and ranting to someone else disconnected from the situation helps me vent my frustration/anger, and often it can help me clear my head so I can think about the situation from more sides. There have been occasions when I'm ranting about something & my friend will point out that perhaps this person doesn't KNOW the issues with what they're doing, or that it's not as serious as I'm making it & my mood is making me more upset than the situation necessitates. My ranting would probably scare almost any newbie straight away. But I try my best to keep it off the forum because it's not going to make the situation better. Even so, I know there's probably some situations where I didn't succeed...and I know I can think of at least one. :roll:  

That all said, please do feel free to message me if you have an issue with me or anyone else on the forum - whether you think I'm friends with them or not. I try my best to be as impartial as I can get & be fair with disputes. I learned that the hard way from previous moderating experiences. I really love this forum & I want to help make it a good place to learn about hedgehogs.


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## shinydistraction (Jul 6, 2014)

Agree. Absolutely. However, I do feel that it should be pointed out that text based communication is just *horrible *at conveying emotion, inflection, and intent. (Kids, this is why you don't have an argument with a friend via text message. You WILL misunderstand something.)

So what may sound like a perfectly reasonable response to someone when it's being typed might come off as far more harsh than intended when it's read by someone else.

Example: I might say something along the lines of "No, don't hand feed your hog treats, you'll get bitten." but it might be read by another person as "No stupid, why would you hand feed a treat? You're going to be bitten, duh."

The first was a perfectly reasonable thing to say, but since you couldn't hear it the way it was intended, you might hear things in it that weren't said and weren't intended. My point is, let's also give the people taking time out of their day to answer a question the benefit of the doubt about the tone of their response. Because you genuinely don't know what the intent was when they wrote it. Not everyone is as eloquent as we'd like them to be and do better with short answers.

Let's just remember there are two sides to a coin and try to be friends! This is a good place to be. Sometimes we have people whose intent is to troll and sometimes we have stubborn souls that won't listen without a proverbial smack to the head. And sometimes we miscommunicate because we forget the limitations of text.


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## Lopi (Apr 11, 2017)

shinydistraction said:


> Agree. Absolutely. However, I do feel that it should be pointed out that text based communication is just *horrible *at conveying emotion, inflection, and intent. (Kids, this is why you don't have an argument with a friend via text message. You WILL misunderstand something.)
> 
> So what may sound like a perfectly reasonable response to someone when it's being typed might come off as far more harsh than intended when it's read by someone else.
> 
> ...


Oh I write for a living, of course i understand you can't convey a tone of voice in writing. However you can insult someone and bluntness is universal across spoken and written English


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## Lopi (Apr 11, 2017)

Lilysmommy said:


> Agreed with....well, everyone, kinda. :lol:
> 
> That all said, please do feel free to message me if you have an issue with me or anyone else on the forum - whether you think I'm friends with them or not. I try my best to be as impartial as I can get & be fair with disputes. I learned that the hard way from previous moderating experiences. I really love this forum & I want to help make it a good place to learn about hedgehogs.


It's already the best place on the internet to learn about hedgehogs.

My vet, who treats hedgehogs frequently, had absolutely no objections to how I take care of my hog, and it's 90% because of reading this forum and the wiki. It shows too, because I made the mistake of taking my hog to her first vet appointment only a couple weeks ago despite having her for a few months, and she is in impeccable health and spirits. (Mind you, it was below 0 outside until recently so I really didn't want to have her out in that for even 30 seconds)

Anyhow, it's a great forum, but I feel some new members get bullied a bit or are accused of things before the whole story is told.

Even if they've made a big mistake, encouragement goes a long way. It's being proved left right and center that too much criticism will lead to more mistakes, or in the case of a younger/less emotionally mature owner, could lead to them feeling so bad about all their mistakes they put the poor hog on Craigslist or take them to a rescue when truth be told, they could have remedied the situation for the future.

The sheer number of free and $50 hogs roughly a year old I see for sale in my city (granted a big city, lots of breeders) breaks my heart. The reason, every single time, is "I can't take care of him/her, I don't know what I'm doing" yada yada. If I didn't live in a small apartment, I'd have 900 hogs ruling my house and would have to eat worms and cat food


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Once again Kelsey you say what I'm trying to say in sooo much better ways! Lol.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

And here I was just thinking "Crap, I talk too much". :lol:

Also I want to thank those on this thread that are sharing their opinion & thoughts & everything respectfully.  I was a little nervous initially that it might get out of hand quickly, but there are a lot of really good points being made, and a lot of good reminders for both old & new members (especially old). Sometimes it's easy for us to forget what it felt like to be a new owner that was constantly terrified of screwing everything up. It's good to have a reminder to stop, breathe, and exercise patience with people as we do with our hedgehogs!


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Are we reading a different forum? I don't feel like people on here are generally very rude. I mean it's the internet, so there will always be some people who are, but I think most members here are quite nice. 
Or *I* am the one you find terribly rude :lol:

I don't do sugar-coating and I might be blunt sometimes because that's a) who I am, b) my culture is known for being direct & not as sugar-coating as some others (Americans or the British, for example) so what I find normal, straight-forward communication might come off more direct to others and c) English is not my native language so I simply have a less extensive vocabulary. 
And I'm probably not the only one on this website, everyone's different. However, I don't really see many people on here who are intentionally rude to others. I think most people are just concerned for the hedgehogs, sometimes tired of the same questions over and over again and in their willingness to help the animal, not always as "nice" to the owner. We're just humans, after all.

And honestly - it's not always what they want to hear, but sometimes putting a hog up for rescue/rehome IS the best thing someone could do. Just depends on the situation but there are definitely cases where it's the best decision even if it's a difficult one.


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## Lopi (Apr 11, 2017)

Draenog said:


> And honestly - it's not always what they want to hear, but sometimes putting a hog up for rescue/rehome IS the best thing someone could do. Just depends on the situation but there are definitely cases where it's the best decision even if it's a difficult one.


Of course that's sometimes the case. That's why rescues exist, but with untold amounts of hogs being up for adoption, I'm sorry the data doesn't point to that many people being unfit to take care of hogs. It points to people lacking the confidence to do so.

Hogs aren't easy to figure out, but once we've mastered the basics and get into a routine, it doesn't take THAT much effort to keep them happy, healthy and stimulated.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

I have to disagree with you on that one, or maybe things are different over where you live - as someone who takes in rehomes and rescues it's not a matter of people lacking confidence, it's a matter of people don't wanting the pet anymore because they e.g. don't have the time for it, it didn't live up to their expectations (usually when they weren't well prepared/didn't do enough research) etc.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Agreed with Draenog, really. Hedgehogs are a fad pet right now - this has been going on for a number of years now. People see pictures & videos of cute, super well socialized hedgehogs on the internet and fall in love (or even just lucky pictures of normal hedgehogs that took 2000 tries to get... :lol. And unfortunately, there are a TON of people that jump on the fad train without doing enough research. It's a big jump from getting an animal that you think will be fine in a pet store cage with some food & water and will be a cute roly-poly ball to finding out that that animal actually needs a bigger cage, a heating set up, will need the poop-covered wheel cleaned daily, and is very defensive & doesn't really like you at all. Heck, I did this myself with my first hedgehog, Lily. I didn't do any research past the breeder's website until 7-8 months after I got Lily, when I found this forum. The only difference was that I'd fallen so much in love with her that I was willing to do whatever I needed to change things for her & it was well worth it to me. But I still had my mom doubting me every step, convinced I was spending too much money on "unnecessary" things for such a small animal.

Honestly, speaking for the US, most people in this country are unfit to care for pets. The standards of pet care in our country are really appalling, even more so for small animals. People are so used to hearing the outdated wrong care information that as soon as they hear what the actual needs of an animal are, they a) assume it's wrong & their pet is fine as is, b) decide that's for "spoiled" pets and not actually a pretty basic standard of care, or c) think that's just too much work, so they don't want the animal anymore. It already happens constantly for hamsters, rabbits, guinea pigs, etc., and hedgehogs are headed the same way.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

I think it's the same with anything that isn't the "average" like dogs or cats. Even with dogs I see it plenty. "Didn't know it would be this hyper" "got bigger than expected" "didn't know it would do this" and it's breed characteristics. People see those cute baby pictures or adorable videos. What they aren't seeing is the reality of what's behind the video, or how odd a behavior actually is. 

Kelsey... we can easily add mini pigs to that list.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lopi (Apr 11, 2017)

I suppose it's that they don't want to take care of them, but I often see in the ads for re-homing that the person seems overwhelmed. Now it could be that the work a hog puts on them is too much, very possible, but I really just think people feel guilty because they've done things wrong and it didn't work.

It's a numbers thing in my area, there is no way ALL of the people selling their hedgehogs are irresponsible and terrible owners. I really just think they took their hog to the vet or read something online and were informed of all the mistakes they've been making for a year and give up because they don't think they can change the way they care for the pet. It's the easy way out, mind you, so not really surprising.


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## Postie1686 (Apr 23, 2017)

I am relatively new to the hedgehog owning side of things. I've had mine for about a month. I did about a months worth of research before buying one. I will say I don't feel it requires much more care then other pets I have had. I would say my most time consuming one is still my reef tank. But that being said after having mine for a month even a day I decided the minimum cage size here in the US is to small. I went with the clear tub most recomend. After adding all items it was not near enough room and I felt bad just looking at it. 2 days after getting her I overnighted a living world xl. With this providing a much larger amount of space... after seeing how far she runs on the wheel every night I still feel this is even to small so I'm designing a new cage. 

As far as the care part goes I guess I've never seen a spot where it says how much attention you should give them. But mine gets about 10 minutes before work if she is still awake. Then about 20-30 when I get home from work. When she wakes up about 8 then I bring her out for a hour. I have many pets but I also realize they take work and don't buy them unless I know I can provide it! 

All that being said I have found a lot of good information on this site and good conversations. But with having so many other pets I see things that make caring for them a little less ( hands on) might be the word I want? But man be careful asking cause you may get pounced on! I am a member of 8 different online communities but none have ever made me feel like I'm doing it wrong like some on this site. I'm sorry but if you don't have a constructive answer with a explanation of why you shouldn't... then just leave it alone and let someone else with the time answer it!


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Lopi said:


> I suppose it's that they don't want to take care of them, but I often see in the ads for re-homing that the person seems overwhelmed. Now it could be that the work a hog puts on them is too much, very possible, but I really just think people feel guilty because they've done things wrong and it didn't work.
> 
> It's a numbers thing in my area, there is no way ALL of the people selling their hedgehogs are irresponsible and terrible owners. I really just think they took their hog to the vet or read something online and were informed of all the mistakes they've been making for a year and give up because they don't think they can change the way they care for the pet. It's the easy way out, mind you, so not really surprising.


I can only speak for my area but based on my experience this is definitely not the reason most people rehome their hedgehogs, and based on the experiences and stories of rescues in general, this doesn't seem to be the issue for them either. 
There are probably people who rehome their hedgehogs for this reason but they do not seem to be the majority.


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## Pixel101 (Dec 11, 2016)

I agree with you I always feel like they're yelling. I have autism so it makes me feel like I'm a idiot. I know they just want to make sure we listen but feeling like I'm being yelled at makes me not wanna post.


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## Alcole6185 (Jul 14, 2016)

I can't speak for rehoming. I will say it is very difficult to find good info. I had a hedgie for months before I found this site and it took me a while to actually trust the info here as I had done research but a lot of the info out there is wrong or bad. I have gotten a ton of great info here and most are great. My only thing is, I know you get the same question a million times. Especially things like heating or wheels. If you can't answer it nicely, then don't answer it. Or come back if you can. I know it feels like you have answered the same question, but if the last question was months ago, the new person is told to post a new topic and then gets a snarky answer. They are new and finding new info. If you want to help the hog, be nice to the owner. Now if they get snarky back or don't want to take advice, all bets are off. Just remember, both the new poster and the experts have things going on in their life we all don't know. My way to go is "assume positive intent". Always assume they mean the best. This isn't for every post on this site most are great it's just sometimes it happens from time to time.


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## Laseterlass (Feb 4, 2017)

*I just snapped back myself*

I was snapped at for asking for photos or correct diagram for conformity. And was basically asked why I cared that only cancer and WHS should be a concern. I wonder how many people understand that structure causes many nerves and back problems that can mimic WHS until a necropsy. Thank You for pointing the attitude out.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Laseterlass said:


> I was snapped at for asking for photos or correct diagram for conformity. And was basically asked why I cared that only cancer and WHS should be a concern. I wonder how many people understand that structure causes many nerves and back problems that can mimic WHS until a necropsy. Thank You for pointing the attitude out.


Breeding is always a sensitive subject but I agree on this forum there's an insane "holier than thou" attitude when it comes to breeding.


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## Laseterlass (Feb 4, 2017)

Right???? The thing is that people will breed them with or without community support. I am taking all the right steps with licensing ect. I have an incredible exotics vet and 47 years of animal husbandry back ground. Many of those just starting out are not so lucky and the only ones that will suffer from the communities attitude are the hedgehogs. I have learned my lesson here.


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## Matvei (Mar 8, 2017)

Lasterless, I gave you accurate information.
Show hedgehogs aren't a thing, maybe they were at some point, but what's more important for you right now is to make sure you find out the pedigrees of your hedgehogs before breeding. I'm not the only one who told you this.


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## Laseterlass (Feb 4, 2017)

Sadly I was warned by more than one hedgehog breeder about this and other forums. I just assumed it would be like Backyard Chickens. Kind of a 4H atmosphere. This is anything but.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

As a retir d b de I have nothing against new breeders as long as they're well prepared and have clean lines, with a 5-6 generation pedigree on all breeding animals. I have had to take in to many rescues suffering from WHS due to irresponsible breeding to be willing to support breeders who aren't prepared and will breed any animal they can get.


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## Lopi (Apr 11, 2017)

nikki said:


> As a retir d b de I have nothing against new breeders as long as they're well prepared and have clean lines, with a 5-6 generation pedigree on all breeding animals. I have had to take in to many rescues suffering from WHS due to irresponsible breeding to be willing to support breeders who aren't prepared and will breed any animal they can get.


Has it been determined what causes WHS? I'm just genuinely curious. Like what breeding techniques (or lack there of). I was asking my vet about WHS and she was saying they've been trying to track it down for quite some time, but haven't come up with a definitive answer, but she is convinced it's linked to breeding of course.

Kind of a genetics nerd here


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

The specific gene etc hasn't been identified, there isn't much research done on WHS. It has been found to be hereditary and that it can skip up to 5 generations. The only way to confirm a hedgehog had WHS is to perform a necropsy and see the lesions on the brain. 

Breeding hedgehogs that have an ancestor that had WHS can create "carriers" who can then pass it on to future generations. This is why so much emphasis is put on only breeding lines that are "clean" of WHS. I actually had bought some breeding stock in the US, travelled 3 days each way to pick them up, paid to bring them into Canada and was preparing to breed them when I was contacted by the breeder I bought them from that a great-great "uncle" of one of the males I had bought had just been confirmed to have WHS. The breeder offered me a refund on that male since he couldn't be used for breeding. I kept him as a pet and he later passed from other causes.


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## ArizonaHazelnut (Nov 16, 2016)

Thank you for sharing, Nikki. I wasn't aware that WHS caused lesions on the brain. WHS almost sounds (and acts) like the hedgehog version of Multiple Sclerosis found in humans.


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## Matvei (Mar 8, 2017)

ArizonaHazelnut said:


> Thank you for sharing, Nikki. I wasn't aware that WHS caused lesions on the brain. WHS almost sounds (and acts) like the hedgehog version of Multiple Sclerosis found in humans.


Indeed, that is what it is.

It seems to be a autosomal recessive disorder, but no one really knows.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Yes it does seem to be like MS in humans.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

nikki said:


> As a retir d b de I have nothing against new breeders as long as they're well prepared and have clean lines, with a 5-6 generation pedigree on all breeding animals. I have had to take in to many rescues suffering from WHS due to irresponsible breeding to be willing to support breeders who aren't prepared and will breed any animal they can get.


That's nice and all unless you're from a country or place where there are no pedigrees, or at least nothing that goes back that far. 
When it comes to breeding people on here are too fast to assume pedigrees are the standard everywhere.


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## Matvei (Mar 8, 2017)

Draenog said:


> That's nice and all unless you're from a country or place where there are no pedigrees, or at least nothing that goes back that far.
> When it comes to breeding people on here are too fast to assume pedigrees are the standard everywhere.


The discussion in this case that Nikki is referring to was within the US, where pedigrees are most definitely available.


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## Artemis-Ichiro (Jan 22, 2016)

You need to stop beating the dead horse.

The person from Alaska had already covered her based on the pedigree but she wants to go beyond that she wants to prevent as many i Knesset as possible but you keep saying she should only care about cancer and WHS.

If that's all you care about that's ok but
puting others down because they want to do more is ridiculous.

You need to give your opinion and move on but just stop.



Matvei said:


> Draenog said:
> 
> 
> > That's nice and all unless you're from a country or place where there are no pedigrees, or at least nothing that goes back that far.
> ...


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

This thread has gotten way off topic and is not the place that be discussing breeding. Just because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean you need to keep arguing the point.


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## Snuffle (Mar 19, 2018)

Lopi said:


> Is very helpful.
> 
> That being said I feel many members from newbies to moderators often have a serious attitude problem.
> 
> The general tone of many of the most frequent posters is condescending, preachy and accusatory.


 Most posts are decent enough I find, however I don't really bother being active here due to a certain "elitist" element that rears it's head at least once a day as I read through old posts. That and I find reading new posts with the same old questions that are answered in the same old ways to be repetitive. Ok sorry, just had to vent. Now back to logging off and being a lurker.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Please check the date on a thread before posting. This one is a year old.


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