# Opinions, suggestions for Spikes play area?



## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Hey all, this is Spikes current playpen setup, I can make the area inside a bit bigger however I am curious what you guys think and if you have any suggestions I would be happy to hear them!


Also the cage is a bit small however he spends most of his time in the playpen. I am considering a bigger cage and my cousin might even build me one.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

He currently has his food and water, a log house, a straw hideaway, a bed, a wheel, and a toy dragon. Also he has space behind his log house to hide and he likes to hide under his wheel.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Playpens are great for when we are supervising them. Most don't work as a cage substitute. Especially since they spend most their awake time in the cage. 
How big is the actual cage and what does it contain? If it isn't big enough and have the ability to house at least the necessary items plus have open space to run, the cage is what needs updated not the playpen.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Well the cage is about 12 inches wide & 23 inches long and has his home, food and water plus wheel.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

And, does he need a gigantic open house? Thing takes up a third of the cage. If I swapped it for the straw hideaway it would give him more cage room. He can still ball up and sleep in that if he wants, hes demonstrated that before


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Cage needs to be a minimum of 4 sq feet of floor space. Yes, you can use different things inside. But need to upgrade the cage to meet the minimum requirement. Also, just so you are aware, in the event that he gets mites or fungal and possibly a bacterial infection, you will be throwing out anything that can't be sanitized. Pretty much that is anything with a porous surface.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

4 square feet, got it. Thanks
Also are there any other toys they like?


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

Just a suggestion, but maybe you should consider using toys/hides that aren't made of wood/straw. As mentioned they aren't easy to clean and can easily harbour mites and bacteria.
maybe try and have a look into snuggle sacks (as these can be washed properly in a machine) or igloos (as these are plastic, they can easily be cleaned)


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Alright, I heard of the snuggle sacks. Will look into one of those then


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## Hedgehog Swag (Feb 19, 2016)

Great Minds Think Alike -

Scrizzie loved her play pen so much it became her home. Only time she is back in the cage is cleaning day. I change the layout of the play pen, except food and water, each day while she sleeps in hopes that it challenges just a little mentally having something new to explore.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Glad to see I am not alone! Love that name by the way. Thats not a bad idea with changing the cage up. My cage right now is about 2 square feet and I'm going to try to get something better soon. But for now Spike is in his playpen all day except when I'm sleeping. even at night he does not seem to be very active. I'm up till 3-4 am and hes pretty quiet. He is still young though


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

mine loves his snuggle sacks, he now has 4 of them  although he never gets in then, he just burrows under them


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Hah thats funny, I saw one picture on here of one uprooting its igloo..


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## Hedgehog Swag (Feb 19, 2016)

Spikeball said:


> Glad to see I am not alone! Love that name by the way. Thats not a bad idea with changing the cage up. My cage right now is about 2 square feet and I'm going to try to get something better soon. But for now Spike is in his playpen all day except when I'm sleeping. even at night he does not seem to be very active. I'm up till 3-4 am and hes pretty quiet. He is still young though


Dump the cage if you have the room to keep the play pen up.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Room isn't the concern, heating is. That might be less of an issue for now, since it's summer and warmer in most of the country, but most people have more trouble heating in the winter. Especially since floors tend to be cooler in general. Don't use a set up like this as a full time set up unless you can keep the temperature steady, make sure you're using a thermometer to check. You also need a lid - this play pen set up would be extremely easy for a hedgehog to escape, even if he hasn't tried yet.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

My room is the highest in the house, and it is always pretty warm. I even sacrifice my being cool for his sake for the most part. I have seen videos of them escape, but this guy always sleeps and I check in on him every now and then

Heating.. They say dont use pads cause it may give them burns, and leaving a heat lamp on is kinda unsettling to do at night. I never had reptiles or the like so any advice with that would be wonderful.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Hedgehog Swag said:


> Dump the cage if you have the room to keep the play pen up.


And I would but theres risk of him escaping.


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

btw for what reason makes you say leaving a heat lamp on at night is unsettling? Just curious
if you use a thermostat, the heat lamp will turn off if its the correct temperature.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Like I said, never dealt with animals that required heat. But that sounds like a good idea. Also I was looking into Ceramic Heat Emitters. Those seem to be the safest option of them all no?


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

OK, first. The way you learn your hedgehog is an escape artist is by them escaping. It doesn't really matter what he does while your watching him. Those playpens are by no means escape proof.
Also, it's heat light bulbs that cause issues. If you choose to heat only his area you could go for a ceramic heat emitter (che) set up.


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

ceramic heat emitters (che) are good. Heat lamps are not ideal as they also emit light, which obviously causes problems as they need it to be dark.

ches only emit heat, and if used with a thermostat, will stay on til they get to the right temp, and then will turn off.
space heaters also are an option (I've never used one personally so cant really give an opinion)


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

CHE it is


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

remember though, it would be better to use that with a thermostat, then you will be able to regulate and keep a more consistent temperature


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes for sure. No way im using it without one


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## Hedgehog Swag (Feb 19, 2016)

Just from experience and common sense -

Scrizzie has been in her pen for several months now without an issue. I am not sure how any hedgehog, unless they have suction feet can scale vertical bars. Has it ever happened? I would not bet my life on it but I have observed Scrizzie and there is zero traction for them to climb. I was actually more worried about her going under but it seems the weight of the play pen is enough to keep that from happening. I am 99% sure she cannot climb the bars and as far as that 1 %, a small risk compared to living in such a large space.

Being that you have been able to spend a good amount of time observing and playing with your hedgie I am pretty sure you have a great idea whether there is any chance your hedgie can scale vertical bars.

The other plus for me was it really increased Scrizzies comfort with me when I started sitting in her play pen with her versus taking her out of her cage to play. When she was in "jail", her cage, and I took her out to play she would virtually spend most of the time looking for a place to hide. When she moved into the pen and I started to sit in her pen she became very social. I am guessing her just being in a comfortable surrounding help.

If you would like a custom playpen fleece bottom email me at [email protected] and let me know what colors you like, your hedgies name and we will make you - on us. Playpen Hedgies Unite!


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks for all the input so far everyone.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Ha suction feet! Well they can depending on the height I think. Also they can climb on something and from there go over the wall. However I have not witnessed this behavior nor my parents. And yea man, I feel bad for them in the cage. They are suppose to be in the wild not in captivity. However we keeping them as pets eliminates the predator factor for them and they live longer. This is exactly why I use the playpen, and even that is temporary till I decide what to do with the cage.. Have my cousin build a nice one or buy it myself. And thank you I will email you if I decide to do that for Spike!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

We're also not sure how they can scale a 12" high plastic tub with nothing in it to climb onto first, but Nikki's had a 6 week old baby manage it. There are also people who have had a determined hedgehog easily shove that type of playpen up & escape. Yes, you have your experience. And others have experiences saying otherwise. With the risks that are posed from a hedgehog loose in the house - getting stuck somewhere, getting cold & attempting hibernation, getting stepped on, something falling on them, eating something, potentially other pets, etc. - even a small risk of them getting out means that it ends up being quite a large risk once they're out. We don't warn against things just because we like scaring new owners. We warn against them because there are long-term owners and breeders that have already dealt with these issues & feel that it's wise to pass on the warnings to others so they can hopefully avoid having the same issues. We want their hedgehogs to stay safe. You can take risks with your hedgehog's health, but advising others to do the same is irresponsible.

Yes, I agree that a larger space is necessary - I personally no longer feel that the US minimum space recommendation of 4 square feet is big enough. But the biggest concerns are that the living space is safe for a hedgehog in terms of heating and containment. After that, it's best to go as big as you can, and yes, 4 square feet is still a good minimum to shoot for. I'm glad you're still planning to buy or have a safe cage built, Spikeball.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Very true. But hey im doing the best I can, the guy who we bought Spike from gave us a small cage included with the price. I watch him well and when I cant my parents do. I am even a bit of an overprotective father since I take care of him. I understand warning people based on past experience however since I joined the forum I became more nervous than I already was :shock:


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

have you considered a c&c cage? You can build them pretty easily and pretty cheap. You can also make ones with lids 
I have a c&c cage and I put it together myself and it was really simple. Admittedly, my c&c cage houses guinea pigs. I decided against it for my hedgie because I was worried about keeping it heated as I live in the UK, so its not that warm even in summer


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Hm c&c.. I'll look into it. Thank you. I actually think I saw kits like that when researching what they needed.


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## shinydistraction (Jul 6, 2014)

They say ignorance is bliss. If you don't know something is potentially dangerous, how can you worry about it? You've been learning things (which is good!), but now you are no longer ignorant (also good!), which makes you nervous (less good).

You've received some great advice...and some not great advice. It's up to you to determine your course of action. Play pens are fantastic ways for your hog to run around and exercise but safety dictates that they be a supervised activity. We know this because we get tons of "Help, my hedgehog is lost!" posts with more frequency than we should. We also know that when not being supervised an appropriate cage that meets necessary requirements in size and safety that can be properly heated (the added benefit to properly heating the cage is you don't have to be quite so hot yourself) is the best way to ensure safety, health and happiness for your hog. But Spike is your companion and your responsibility. We can't force you to do things a certain way. All we can do is advise you based on our collective experience. The rest is entirely up to you. But remember, you reap what you sow.


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

I bought mine as a complete kit, with lid and correx base and everything. But I'm pretty sure you can buy the parts individually as well. I bought mine as a kit simply because was struggling to get the correx base, but that might just be because of my location.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Being nervous can be a good thing. As long as it pushes you to do better. 
I used to think those little play pens were cute and would work for containment. 
Had my first hedgehog in one with the front door open as I was visiting someone on my porch. Went inside to use the restroom and left the front door open. My neighbor fortunately was quick enough to grab him right at my front door, he went under. Found that out by watching him crawl under a second time. Naturally based on that, in my book, they don't work for containing a determined hedgehog. 
The best way to win at hide and go hedgie is to avoid it all together. Yes accidents happen. But that's where nervousness helps, you double check that the cage is secure, you ensure that latches work properly, and if your like me you have a 3 ft board blocking the doorway out the room.


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## shinydistraction (Jul 6, 2014)

Haha, you don't mess around, do you Two?


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

That is certainly true


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Heck no. Each step was added after a game of hide and go hedgie. The board at least lets me be assured that the game is somewhat based on my rules of stay in the room. The room the critters are in doubles as a pantry and has a fridge in it. It is sitting on 4 inch blocks because your hand won't fit under when it sits normally.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

bobble said:


> I bought mine as a complete kit, with lid and correx base and everything. But I'm pretty sure you can buy the parts individually as well. I bought mine as a kit simply because was struggling to get the correx base, but that might just be because of my location.


Ah alright, it seems like a good idea especially since it has the lid


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

twobytwopets said:


> Heck no. Each step was added after a game of hide and go hedgie. The board at least lets me be assured that the game is somewhat based on my rules of stay in the room. The room the critters are in doubles as a pantry and has a fridge in it. It is sitting on 4 inch blocks because your hand won't fit under when it sits normally.


Thats something you had to put a board infront of your door lol. Whatever works though


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

yeh, they are good. You can get them in different sizes (I have a 2x6, with a 1x2 loft which houses 2 guinea pigs)
it would be pretty similar to the playpen, but would have a base, meaning your hedgehog wouldn't be able to under it, and if you get a lid, stops him going out over the top as well. Essentially win win


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes that is a solid plan. The only thing is if they climb to the top and fall.. But from what I heard as long as they have things to play with they dont do that. still though


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

well you could get the cortex base to have taller sides I imagine My gps correx sides only go up about 20cm, but obviously its not an issue I had to worry about with them

also depends on what you have in the cage. I don't really have anything my hedgie can use to climb on to get higher. As he has a snuggle sack, wheel, ball, treat ball & tunnel (the tunnels wider enough he wouldn't be able to on top, and its fleece so it would collapse if he dis somehow manage it) also my hedgie isn't a climber


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Oh my mistake. I forgot the bases can have the flat sides. True


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

there was a thread earlier from someone called wyndall & I, which included a picture of a c&c cage. The sides on theirs looked pretty high. Maybe you could ask them what they did, if you are worried about the sides being too low


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yea I seen them on the forum. I'll try and hunt down that post thanks


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Found it. That kinda cage is amazing. And yes the flat walls go up quite a bit.


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

Any time  I'm no expert, I've not even had my hedgehog that long, but I remember how nervous I was when I first got him, and how I wanted everything to be perfect  still worry quite alot now tbh  but this forum has really helped, anytime I have been curious


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yeah its seems like THE hedgehog place. I think I might do c&c cause I love that one cage


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

that's essentially the cage i have for my gps (although think that's a 2x4 which would be big enough for a hedgie) they are really good. They provide good levels of space and good ventilation. 
the loft bit is also an extra, you can add on. you can get them without if you want.

I wish I could get one for my hedgie, but where I live, especially in winter, I think heating it would be too difficult (would probably need like 4 ches )


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yea thats true too, heating a bigger cage requires more emitters. Hmm


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

I found a good 2x4 that has 10 inch sides for hedge's on a Guineapig cage site


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

I'm glad to hear it. I imagine 10 inch sides would be okay (although I don't know for sure) 
as I said, depends on what you have in the cage, your hedgie can use to assist with climbing.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

And did you say you could get a lid for those as well? I would like the extra security


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

I have for mine, yes. You could contact the company and ask if they provide lids, if it doesn't state that with the cage.
if not, you could easily make a lid yourself, if you can find somewhere to buy the grid squares (you can probably get extra grid squares from wherever you are thinking about getting the cage)


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Ok thats an idea. I didn't realise how big that actually is though. It may be too big for my room. Gotta see. Regardless I'll try for something 4 sq ft or greater as long as it fits lol


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

they do usually offer a smaller standard kit size. Usually you can get 2x3 kits as well (which if my measurements are correct would still be big enough, although you would have to double check that. Maths isn't my strong point )
there's always the option of getting the grids in non standard kit form. If you got the grids and made it yourself, you could make it any size/shape you wanted.


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

if you do want to do a c&c cage without a kit, you could start a new thread in the housing section and ask about where to get grids & parts for c&c cages. I'm sure some one would be able to recommend a website or shop for you


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yea true. I could always make it how I want it. Do you use bedding in that like a normal cage? Im guessing so

And thats a good idea but i think i found a pretty decent priced one. Also it says a store where I live sells the pieces.


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

you can use normal bedding, yes. I've used all sorts of beddings in mine in the past (but again its for guinea pigs) 

well that's good then  glad you've found one


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## Hedgehog Swag (Feb 19, 2016)

Lilysmommy said:


> We're also not sure how they can scale a 12" high plastic tub with nothing in it to climb onto first, but Nikki's had a 6 week old baby manage it. There are also people who have had a determined hedgehog easily shove that type of playpen up & escape. Yes, you have your experience. And others have experiences saying otherwise. With the risks that are posed from a hedgehog loose in the house - getting stuck somewhere, getting cold & attempting hibernation, getting stepped on, something falling on them, eating something, potentially other pets, etc. - even a small risk of them getting out means that it ends up being quite a large risk once they're out. We don't warn against things just because we like scaring new owners. We warn against them because there are long-term owners and breeders that have already dealt with these issues & feel that it's wise to pass on the warnings to others so they can hopefully avoid having the same issues. We want their hedgehogs to stay safe. You can take risks with your hedgehog's health, but advising others to do the same is irresponsible.
> 
> Yes, I agree that a larger space is necessary - I personally no longer feel that the US minimum space recommendation of 4 square feet is big enough. But the biggest concerns are that the living space is safe for a hedgehog in terms of heating and containment. After that, it's best to go as big as you can, and yes, 4 square feet is still a good minimum to shoot for. I'm glad you're still planning to buy or have a safe cage built, Spikeball.


Take any rule and there is an exception. Forums have a really bad habit of taking the exception, having others repeat it, till it becomes the rule. Seen more than one example of this on this site alone. Do I believe a hedgehog scaled a smooth surface 12" high? Personally think there is more to the story. I would bet you could repeat that situation with 1000 hedgehogs and not one get out. It is common sense and physics. This whole concept of creating a sterile risk free environment is mind boggling. I assume as parents everyone of us let our kids ride a bike yet we know there is significant injuries and death that can occur yet we do it for quality of life. Not affording our pets the same quality of life is basically saying you worry more about pets than your own kids.

Just a difference of opinion. You may think that me risking the remote chance a hedgie can scale vertical bars is irresponsible whereas I think sticking a "wild" animal in a small cage 23 hours a day is irresponsible.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes you bring up a great point.


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## Hedgehog Swag (Feb 19, 2016)

Spikeball said:


> Yes you bring up a great point.


To me Spikeball putting a wild animal in a small cage that has side panels that does not allow them to really even see out of their cage is like putting a human in solitary confinement 23 hours a day with little to look at besides the gray walls. It is common sense the negative impact this has on a persons mental state of mind. I can only assume it has the same effect on animals. I do everything I can to prevent this happening to Scrizzie.

Another suggestion on this same line is I created a "natural dig box" out of a cake pan. In the pic I posted of Scrizzieland you can see the first version which is the green litter box. I added a thin layer of cement on the bottom and then filled with flat rocks and bark. This is where I put Scrizzies dinner which is mostly live insects so she has to dig and root around to eat. Again just trying to create some sort of mental stimulation. It is actually a hoot to watch her root around and catch the insects.


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## Prue (Feb 20, 2016)

Hedgehog Swag said:


> Take any rule and there is an exception. Forums have a really bad habit of taking the exception, having others repeat it, till it becomes the rule. Seen more than one example of this on this site alone. Do I believe a hedgehog scaled a smooth surface 12" high? Personally think there is more to the story. I would bet you could repeat that situation with 1000 hedgehogs and not one get out. It is common sense and physics. This whole concept of creating a sterile risk free environment is mind boggling. I assume as parents everyone of us let our kids ride a bike yet we know there is significant injuries and death that can occur yet we do it for quality of life. Not affording our pets the same quality of life is basically saying you worry more about pets than your own kids.
> 
> Just a difference of opinion. You may think that me risking the remote chance a hedgie can scale vertical bars is irresponsible whereas I think sticking a "wild" animal in a small cage 23 hours a day is irresponsible.


I agree with you that these forums tend to have a lot of rules which gave sprung from one person's unlikely experience. It can be very irritating seeing how people just repeat what they have heard without understanding the meaning of what they are saying.

However you have to understand that the people on here are only trying to help, not make hedgehogs everywhere have miserable lives. It's not irresponsible to keep your hedgehog in a cage with a lid, in fact it's quite the opposite. By keeping them safe and secure you are being responsible. They are being given everything that they need and will not be hurt under your care. What is irresponsible is letting them be hurt in a way which was easily preventable.

Personally, I would love to be able to keep Prudence in a 20 square foot playpen and let her roam and run around to her little heart's content. Natural dig boxes and such are very enriching, and I totally see the appeal. It just isn't possible in my current situation. For starters, I live in an area with harsh winters. Temperatures inside my house can sometimes go as low as 65, and heating a giant cage like that would be impossible. In addition to that, I also have several other pets which would be able to harm her. I am away all day at work and wouldn't fancy coming home to discovering that she has been made into dog food or gone into hibernation. By having a setup like yours, I would encounter a whole lot of problems. I would much rather have her in an 8 square foot cage that is "sterile and risk free" than have her be hurt or killed because of my irresponsible choice. For some people (with warm houses and no other pets), I can see why your setup would be appealing, but it is just too risky for me.


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## Hedgehog Swag (Feb 19, 2016)

Talia, 

I agree not everyone has the room or the environment to have a large play pen as a pets home. That is without question. I take offense to those that use the exception, apply it as the rule and then claim it is irresponsible. I could care less how much experience one has when it comes to the physics behind a small animal being able to scale vertical metal bars. Although it may not be 100% impossible I will go 99% and the payoff for living conditions vs the 1% is great payoff. 

For me I do not even get why there cages used with horizontal bars as it requires putting up some kind of barrier around the bottom of the cage which isolates the hedgie even more.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

We all just want what is best for our Hedgehog I think. We wouldnt really bother with this forum if we didn't. I think it can be a touchy subject though because of how some things are interpreted. We all have our "hedgie" children and we all take care of them differently. The main thing is to keep them safe and give them love.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

There is a difference between protecting them and being over protective. That difference will change from person to person and from one scenario to the next. Fact remains, an appropriate cage is needed for 99% of owners. If you use a playpen in lieu of a cage, you NEED to take additional precautions. Same would be true for a cage that could have to potential for escaping (most do). 
Common sense gets you so far, but hedgehogs lack common sense. So for some of us, experience trumps what our linear thinking will lead us to believe. We then share those experiences, good bad or in between, to help other owners make informed decisions. People share Nikkyi's situation with the baby because it is shocking that it was possible. Things like that need to be in the back of someone's mind at the very least. If someone doesn't know or acknowledge the risks they aren't making an informed decision. 
One issue I see for me personally with using essentially a play pen like the one in question is, what do we do when we aren't able to watch them? When we aren't home? When we are ill in bed? Unless they are in a hedgehog safe room disaster could happen before we are aware. 
I can't trust an animal to do everything like they do with me watching when I am watching. When I'm sleeping or not home, my dogs are in their crate. My birds have to go in their cages as well. Any hedgehog that may be roaming has to be in their cage. Is that ideal that they need to go in cages? No, but it's a necessary thing. Not based on another persons experience, but my own.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes Two that is true. When we are gone from home Spike is in his cage that I double check is secure. When home we let him run around (sleep) in his pen and watch him. If he does by any chance jump ship, he will be in my room that has no other animals in it and the worst thing that could possibly happen is he could urinate on my carpet which I like to keep clean. Lol


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

if you look hard enough you can usually find opinions to support or go against any argument really. 
you asked for our opinions, and we gave them, but we can't make you enforce any of it. Read what the users have told you and then use your own common sense, but what's practical for someone else may not be the solution for you.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes I asked for opinions so thanks to everyone for the input. I have read and listened to it all, but I was curious what other toys they like also. Some suggestions for that would be nice too


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Hedgehog Swag said:


> Take any rule and there is an exception. Forums have a really bad habit of taking the exception, having others repeat it, till it becomes the rule. Seen more than one example of this on this site alone. Do I believe a hedgehog scaled a smooth surface 12" high? Personally think there is more to the story. I would bet you could repeat that situation with 1000 hedgehogs and not one get out. It is common sense and physics. This whole concept of creating a sterile risk free environment is mind boggling. I assume as parents everyone of us let our kids ride a bike yet we know there is significant injuries and death that can occur yet we do it for quality of life. Not affording our pets the same quality of life is basically saying you worry more about pets than your own kids.
> 
> Just a difference of opinion. You may think that me risking the remote chance a hedgie can scale vertical bars is irresponsible whereas I think sticking a "wild" animal in a small cage 23 hours a day is irresponsible.


The goal isn't for sterile & risk-free, IMO. That's not how I keep my animals. However, the way I keep my animals isn't something most people can manage - primarily the raw diet. Hence, I don't specifically advocate a raw diet. I have put the information out there for others to look at so they have something to start with. I repeatedly mention that further research is necessary and that it isn't something to be tried lightly. But I don't suggest it to anyone unless they're already interested or in very particular situations. The new substrate method I plan to try out with Bindi & possibly Pancake isn't something typically done with hedgehogs & it could easily have risks - so I don't plan to advocate it at all. I may post information about it, but I'm far more likely to warn people against it than to encourage it. Because the goal is eliminating the obvious risks or the especially dangerous ones. Obvious risks - things that can catch limbs or paws, things that can break teeth, cause choking, or cause falls. Especially dangerous risks - hibernating & escaping (since that can lead to a whole host of other risks).

The difference between kids & pets is that kids generally have more intelligence, and they're more likely to learn from their mistakes. Parents also usually make their kids wear a helmet when they ride a bike - to reduce a risk of major injury. People recommend lids on hedgehog enclosures to reduce risk of a major injury.

I agree that putting an animal in a too-small cage is irresponsible. That's not what I'm advocating for here. I'm advocating for the largest space that someone can provide *while ensuring that it's safe for the animal*. Yes, there's a minimum space recommendation, and if someone can't provide that while ensuring a safe environment for the animal, then they shouldn't have that animal. But people sometimes start out with the wrong information. Having the animal in an enclosure that's smaller than recommended for a short period while a larger space is being obtained is preferable to putting them in a larger space that could easily become a major hazard.

I guess the way I look at giving advice, particularly on the internet - give the safest recommendations from what's been found by the community thus far. Give the reasoning behind those recommendations, & the risks they eliminate. I see no reason to advise someone to try something that has a real risk behind it for some (if not all) hedgehogs, particularly a new owner. Once that person has more experience in dealing with hedgehog behavior and is more comfortable with spotting potential hazards for their specific hedgehog & dealing with the potential fallout, then sure, maybe they're able to experiment more and find something that works better for them. But like Two said, for 99% of owners, a proper sized enclosure with a lid, that prevents climbing, is going to be the best option for housing their hedgehog. So that's what we recommend to new people.

Edit: Sorry for taking over your thread so much, Spikeball. This is my last post on the subject on here, I promise!

Toys can vary a lot by hedgehog - some like things that make noise like cat balls with bells in them or crackly ones. Things they can shove with their noses seem to be a more popular item. Small stuffed animals as well, some hedgehogs like to drag their buddies into bed with them, etc. I'm a huge fan of foraging-type toys, though I haven't had a chance to make a post on that yet. You can do a lot of things for that - dig boxes, placing treats & food in various places around the cage or playpen, hiding treats under a cardboard egg carton, or inside plastic easter eggs (only loosely attached). I also got plastic aquarium plants that I put in Lily's cage & hid treats on/around those, which she really like. They also tend to like tunnels & a lot of people use oatmeal cannisters or PVC pipe or ferret tunnels in their cages.


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

I agree with lillysmommy comments on toys. They really depend on the hedgie. Mines not really into toys, but really enjoys tunnels, bridges, cardboard boxes, paper bags ..... Essentially anything he can hide in or under.
he also has a selection of balls (some jingle), a treat ball, a small dump truck (only takes notice if it has food on it) stuffed hedgehog. He essentially ignores all these things though, but I still put 1 or 2 of them in his cage at a time, just in case


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Post as much as you want to I dont mind, but those are some good ideas for the toys.. Yea the ones that stimulate their mind are the best kinds. I gotta figure out something like that for Spike. He needs some of those activities. Thank you


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

bobble said:


> I agree with lillysmommy comments on toys. They really depend on the hedgie. Mines not really into toys, but really enjoys tunnels, bridges, cardboard boxes, paper bags ..... Essentially anything he can hide in or under.
> he also has a selection of balls (some jingle), a treat ball, a small dump truck (only takes notice if it has food on it) stuffed hedgehog. He essentially ignores all these things though, but I still put 1 or 2 of them in his cage at a time, just in case


Hmmm ideas ideas..


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

plenty of ideas for you to think about there, just don't be disheartened if your hedgie doesn't like them. Just have to keep trying  
I still put things in, hoping he will change his mind. Sometimes I think I do it to make me feel better  I think the cage looks a bit depressing with no toys


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

bobble said:


> plenty of ideas for you to think about there, just don't be disheartened if your hedgie doesn't like them. Just have to keep trying
> I still put things in, hoping he will change his mind. Sometimes I think I do it to make me feel better  I think the cage looks a bit depressing with no toys


Ha yea it is kinda depressing. I took his dragon out cause I think staring at a huge dragon face might creep him out lol. If anything his favorite things are things to sleep in :O


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

I can see why you would think that  aslong as mine has his wheel and somewhere to hide (currently a super soft fleece tunnel), hes happy enough with just that really. 
how old is yours btw? You've probably mentioned that already some where


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

I see fleece literally everywhere when it comes to Hedgehogs. I've heard that word so many times lol. And Spike is around 9 weeks old


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

haha, it does come in really useful, can be used for a lot of things  
oh right, pretty young then. No wonder he spends a lot of time sleeping


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Ah, maybe ill look into some. And yea thats what my Mom says but we still wake him up to play with him every now and then. He does drag his bed around sometimes though when he comes out to eat and drink. Ive combined his bed and his log house so hes got a nice soft place to sleep thats warmer than the plastic on floor


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

he should get more active, the older he gets. I used to worry my hedgie was really lazy, as all he did was sleep. Now though, he alot more active.
also, he will be more active at night when its completely dark, so you might just not be seeing him when he's most active. My hedgie only used to be really active from like 3am to 6am


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yea thats what I'm hoping for! Also I'm using up till 3 playing PS4 or various other things so I might just miss him then.. I figured past 12 he'd be out


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

do you have lots of lights on when you are up though? That night put him off getting up earlier


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes but I have tried just using my smaller dim lamp and he still doesnt come out. Its hard to stare at screens in the pitch black.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

The lighting is very important, but so is darkness. Some hedgehogs are more sensitive than others. The darkness tells them that it's time to wake up. 
You say you get him out to play, perfectly fine to wake them up for that, but what times are you getting him up? If it's during the day, that will effect his activity level.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes I do wake him during the day but also later at night. About one time each since I know he wants to sleep


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

A couple things to try. 
Stop waking him up during the day. They are nocturnal, during the day is the middle of the night for him. This is a common cause of grumpy hedgie. Remember they are not very different from their wild cousins. Being woke up in the middle of the day is surely going to result in being food. Without the rest, it's harder to process oh it's my person. Instead, wait till you shut the lights off to wake him up. He's had a full days rest and it's when his brain is starting to tell him to wake up. 
Also, he may be more sensitive to the light at night. You may need to do some modifications to his area to let him be awake in the dark. People have put up room dividers, hung sheets, moved their activities elsewhere or found a better room for their cage.


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

So dont wake him at all? Or you can during the day as long as you have the room dark? Seems a tad ridiculous waiting to play till 4 AM seeing as no human being is nocturnal. Basically its a pet you can watch sleep. Cant be right


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

And I can always move his cage. Thats a non issue


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

yeh, basically they sleep all day and then are awake at night. 
I work nights, so I sleep all day too. But my hedgie usually gets up around 8:30pm, which gives me 2-3 hours before I go to work to play and bond. (but even if I worked during the day, I would be out most of the day, so the fact he's sleeping wouldn't make a difference)
if you don't wake him during the day, you will probably find that he gets up earlier in the evening, as he's had proper days sleep


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Ok well I can try it. But I usually clean his cage when I wake up, guess I should do that at night.. Hm


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

The room should be lit during the day, and spike in his cage. Then in the evening when his 12-14 hours of regular routine lights go off, then wake him up. The exception to this is if he's already walking around close to that time. 
Think of it like this. If you are normally asleep by 10pm and wake up at 7am, if for some reason you wake up at 2am and are up until 6, you won't be waking up at 7 or will be dragging the next day.


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## shinydistraction (Jul 6, 2014)

The average person will allow their hog to sleep during daylight hours and then wake them up in the evening. Generally anywhere from 8pm on. Some will wake them earlier, and that's ok. I wouldn't wake up a hog earlier than 6 or 7 in the evening without a specific reason like a vet visit. And I'd be cringing at waking them up at 6. Once they've been woken up for the evening they'll typically be out with their person until bed time. Normally a couple of hours. Then the human goes to bed and the hog starts their "day".

Now, if you're up crazy hours into the night, I would choose a hard set time that Spike has to be back in his cage to do his own thing where it's dark. A schedule will work wonders on your relationship. Pick a time that he'll be with you and time for him to be on his own. And once he's on his own for the night, make sure it stays completely dark where he is.


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

Spikeball said:


> Ok well I can try it. But I usually clean his cage when I wake up, guess I should do that at night.. Hm


in regards to this, I do a full cage clean for my hedgies cage on my days off (on my days off, I'm up during the day so I can get stuff done, see some daylight ) obviously I clean litter tray, bowls, wheel every morning, but he's asleep by this point and I don't disturb him

all I do is put some bedding in a bowl, put my hedgie in it, and cover him with his snuggle sack, and he goes back to sleep. Doesn't move the whole time I clean, once I'm done cleaning and have it set back up, quickly but him back, and cover him again with a clean snuggle sack. I find this way is the the least disturbing to his schedule and mine.

Again its one of those things where you have to see what works best for you and your situation


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## Spikeball (Jun 17, 2016)

Ok, I will try that. Thank you


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## bobble (Apr 30, 2016)

that's okay  it does take alot of time and patience to figure out what works best for you and your hedgie. Once you have a schedule (and stick to it the best you can) makes things alot easier.


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