# Calcium to Phosphorous ratio's.



## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Hello all, new to the forum but not new to hedgies and other small insectivores. I just recently bought the sweetest little girl hedgie I've seen in a while. Playful, cuddly, very interactive. No issues just a question for the hedgie community at large...a little background first.

I also own sugar gliders, in an effort to improve their diet I began to do some truly exhaustive research. I discovered that they (among many other small to medium insectivores, in fact pretty much ANY insectivore kept in zoo's or privately) require the proper Calcium to Phosphorous ratio in their diet to help prevent diet/health deficiencies. With gliders it's hind leg paralysis, with Virginia Opossums it's metabolic bone disease...etc etc.

I gathered this info from wildy varied sources, blogs, articles, quotes from zoo staff, wildlife rehabbers and long time hobbyist's/breeders (mostly from Europe). They all reccomended a Cal to Phos ratio very close (and I mean so close it's crazy) to what's reccomended for gliders....

http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com/ssg- ... -diet.html

One keeper with a Dr's degree in front of his name was quoted as saying that feeding foods with the proper Cal to Phos ratio was imperative in the prevention of WHS. Another tidbit more than suggested that some animals have a genetic predisposition to vitamin deficiencies such as WHS.

My question is: why are none of these things being discussed on American forums? Another good question: if zoos only use 20%-30% catfood in their diets (even for cats!) why do we feed so much of it to our hedgies?


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

p.s. the only dry diets for hedgies I saw reccomended by Zoo's and their staff and or academic sites (lab research records etc) was a quality insectivore kibble or bird of prey diet.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Not diet related but ironic (to me)...another similarity I noticed in these totally different species is that the same bonding techniques work with each one of them. Pouch or bag, calm, loving, actions and speech. Food, licky treats on the finger, insects, toys/enrichment and lots more lovin.
Love them, act in a non threatening manner, love them again, bribe them with food, and then love them some more...and voila, no more grumpy hedgie, glider, short tailed possum, etc.


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## pooka dotted (Jan 5, 2011)

First question: At HHC We often talk about diet and supplement deficiencies. There are many hedgehog owners on this site that feed their hedgehogs more than just cat food. I am one of them, and I know there are others as well  Not all the owners on this site feed more than just cat food, because a lot think a few veggies here and there and a few insects here and there is what is minimum. So they do the bare minimum, because it's acceptable. WHS *(Under my understanding)* is also a genetic disease, not a disease that can be prevented through proper diet unfourtunately. Like MS in people, it just happens, and there is no reason.

A lot of people JUST feed cat food to their hedgies because of many reasons:

A: They are lazy and don't want to spend the time or money into chopping up veggies or mixing other bugs and other things with different foods.

B: Hedgie is a picky eater, and won't touch anything but kibbles.

C: They are lacking the knowledge and don't see feeding them anything else is necessary "Like a cat, dog, or fish" but even those animals need suppliments and a wider diet sometimes.

D: Hedgie has weight issues and needs to be fed not as much high fat content foods.

E: No access to an "insectivore diet" kibble. Nowhere in the cities or pet food stores sells it and it is almost always only available online.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

I wrote...."Another tidbit more than suggested that some animals have a genetic predisposition to vitamin deficiencies such as WHS. "

I believe it is (just my opinion mind you) a dietary deficiency. I also believe that many hedgies have a genetic predisposition to it. Just as people can have a genetic predispostion to the things you mentioned. 

I figure it can't hurt to choose food combos that have a good cal/phos ratio. i would probably feed all those foods anyway so why not? 

Also just my opinion....theres absolutely no excuse for A, C, and E on your list, if you cannot do these things then you have no business owning a hedgie.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

If you can't afford to buy food online for them how in the world could you EVER afford to take them to the vet?

If you love them be nicer to them than that, don't get one.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Lets face it, even E on your list only hold's so much water. 

Again only my opinion but if your pet is fat you'll do some research on low fat fresh foods, make sure it has a hedgie safe wheel and get him/her out for lot's and lots of extra playtime/exercise.

D is the only one I'd let slide really (who knows what a previous owner fed the poor little thing?) and only if the present owner was actively trying to get that animal to try fresh food on a nightly basis.


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## pooka dotted (Jan 5, 2011)

Look, I appreciate your passion. But I didn't answer your questions to look for a fight. I was just giving you reasons (not mine!) as to why some people don't feed their pets as well as others. So I take a little bit of offence when you state "You" instead of a more generic word like "People." I agree that if people cannot produce the proper requirements for animals they shouldn't own them, but truth is: All types of animals will be put in homes where they will not be treated with the best of care, no matter what. If more people could become educated it would make a really really big difference in hedgehogs lives. 

Also: Many Very reputable breeders on this site have had many many hogs, and take VERY good care of them, yet some still have succumbed to WHS. Therefore I still don't agree that it could be narrowed down to a deficiency in nutrition.


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

izzy_prickly said:


> My question is: why are none of these things being discussed on American forums? Another good question: if zoos only use 20%-30% catfood in their diets (even for cats!) why do we feed so much of it to our hedgies?


I can only speak for myself but I use a mix of recommended cat foods along with Insects and Veggies. I think the majority of people here do the same and if they don't its because the hedgie is picky and not for a lack of trying. I choose to feed my hedgie this way because it is recommended by experienced breeders on this site that I have a lot of respect for and trust. A lot of them have had way more experience than Zoo's or Dr's because of the length of time they have had hedgies and with the number they have raised. Zoo's don't always get diets right and Vet's/Drs don't either. Many people have been to the Vet's for this discussion and was recommended things that is known to cause malnutrition, choking or other no so great side effects by the sheer number of reports everyone sees here. Most of the times with Zoo's they may have a small number of hedgies but how does it compare to a breeder that has been doing it for over 15 years and has had hundreds. One thing that comes to mind is the Zoo that was feeding their hedgehog Grapes which are known to cause Renal Failure. Plus I think its important to know what the Dr specializes in, if he has a strong nutritional background then it would hold weight but many do not. Also a lot of the research out there is for European or other types of wild hedgehogs and not our Hybridized African Hedgehog pets.

A mix of recommended cat foods is used for a staple because many experienced Breeders have used this and had their Hedgehogs thrive on it. Most would agree variety and insects should be used to supplement the diet but to date its the best option. Ca/P ration does play a big role in many animals. The main problem is that there is a lack of scientific study in regards to hedgehogs (our pet hedgehogs). I think the main reason it's not spoken of much is because know one really knows for sure what the role is in Hedgehogs or proper levels and until then everyone has to go on feeding what has worked for Hedgies in the past until someone stumbles upon a discovery with their observations. Diet is definitely something stressed over and paid close attention to by many owners and we can only hope that there are more discoveries learned. I have not seen an Insectivore Diet that I would trust to feed my hedgehog because it either has poor ingredients, has caused malnutrition/starvation in other hedgies, contains choking hazards, protein too high, been made with a different species nutritional needs in mind and not our pets etc. I think not feeding Insectivore diet has very little to do with ordering it online, expense, laziness or whatever....its because in most cases it doesn't make the cut. Premium cat food mixes are way more expensive than any Insectivore Diet out there, it's not unheard of for someone to pay 60 dollars plus for their mixes up into the hundreds.

The best thing to do is if you have a theory on something that may work then you start implementing it with your own hedgehogs and log the results so that you can share your findings with the community.

I appreciate your passion as well and if I misunderstood the feel of your post then I apologize. But I must admit I felt very offended as well and felt that their was a lot of negative/assumptive things being said about a group of people you have spent very little time with getting to know.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Clearly I was a bit overzealous, I seriously didn't mean to cause offense. Not one thing I said in my post's was directed at ANY specific person, if it came across that way I do apologize.

That being said...many of the sites/blogs I was looking at were indeed written by breeders. I didn't just look at what zoos were doing. An interesting fact is that many zoo staff agreed with what you said... no one really knows what they need, including the pro/s with a degree. There simply hasn't been any comprehensive study done on the matter.

As to my ideas on diet they actually are pretty much what some of you feed. The only difference will be as stated before I'll try to provide a a certain Cal/Phos ratio. I do intend to log the results and have the animal vet checked on a regular basis.

This is really a diet plan that anyone could do, there are lists online with the cal/phos ratio of many types of fruits and veggies. The recipes for fruit and veggie salsa's or relish's that I gave a link to provide some good choices.

Proper Calcium to Phosphorous ratio's are the same for all warmblooded animals, including humans btw.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Edit:Not quite what I meant to say! 
Proper Calcium to Phosphorous ratio's are the same for all warmblooded animals, including humans btw.

It should have read something more like....Proper Calcium to Phosphorous ratios are important to all animals... etc etc.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

pooka dotted said:


> Look, I appreciate your passion. But I didn't answer your questions to look for a fight.......
> Also: Many Very reputable breeders on this site have had many many hogs, and take VERY good care of them, yet some still have succumbed to WHS. Therefore I still don't agree that it could be narrowed down to a deficiency in nutrition.


Again I did not mean to offend or start a fight, I was using the word you in a very general context, not you specifically, please accept my apologies.

Also: I don't doubt the love, concern or dedication of these breeders in the slightest. From your description it sounds as if they went to great effort. But as as already pointed out not even the pro's really know what hedgies need.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

I actually I sort of think it's both...sort of. 

I think it is a diet deficiency and I think that some animals can have a genetic prediposition to it and can pass this predispostion on to their young. 

In sugar gliders there's are more than one diet deficiency related problem. The biggie is hind leg paralysis. It's caused by a high phos to cal ratio in the diet and low cal in general. If caught early a calcium injection from a vet and the proper diet will reverse or halt the paralysis. But if you dont catch it in time theres nothing you can do and some gliders just dont respond to treatment no matter how early you catch it, they just seem very suceptible to it. Once it get's to a certain point it can't be corrected even WITH proper vet care, diet and supplements. 

When fed a properly balanced diet glider's can live to 15 years, happy and healthy, if you don't you'll be lucky to get 3-5 and very likely it will suffer greatly in the end. 

I'm not suggesting they should be fed the exact same diet as a sugar glider they are after all a different species. Clearly a hedgie could never digest acacia gum or anything remotely like it. They just aren't designed that way. 

I relate the story of gliders as an analogy. HLP is caused by a dietary defciency and some gliders have a predisposition for it. They're both insectivorous almost omnivorous, I feel the comparison has some relevance.

Neither am I suggesting that my theory will cure WHS. I am however suggesting that it may help prevent it. Many articles I've read about WHS suggest that it may be diet related in some way. This is not exactly a new idea


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

izzy_prickly said:


> Also: I don't doubt the love, concern or dedication of these breeders in the slightest. From your description it sounds as if they went to great effort. But as as already pointed out not even the pro's really know what hedgies need.


I am one of the owners who most people would agree spend a LOT of time researching hedgie dietary needs and health issues. Snarf's diet (and life, really) is constantly being evaluated and tweaked. So I DO take exception to your general labels and would LOVE to do more research...you find me just one website that has information about hedgehogs beyond the basics...just ONE...

The fact is there has been very little research into the needs of hedgehogs and there is very little information available, beyond the basics of care. WE are working with what we have. Hedgies have simply not been around as pets long enough for anyone to have definitive information...certainly not based on research.

I will be right here waiting for those awesome non-North American sites you seem to know about.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

izzy_prickly said:


> [quote="pooka dotted":1o88gs9g]Look, I appreciate your passion. But I didn't answer your questions to look for a fight.......
> Also: Many Very reputable breeders on this site have had many many hogs, and take VERY good care of them, yet some still have succumbed to WHS. Therefore I still don't agree that it could be narrowed down to a deficiency in nutrition.


Again I did not mean to offend or start a fight, I was using the word you in a very general context, not you specifically, please accept my apologies.

Also: I don't doubt the love, concern or dedication of these breeders in the slightest. From your description it sounds as if they went to great effort. But as as already pointed out not even the pro's really know what hedgies need.[/quote:1o88gs9g]

I went back and reread my intial post's and again I do sincerely apologize. They really do read as an attack on you personally pooka dotted. Any and all bad feeling were directed at folk's that dont think before they get a hedgehog or that make no effort to better their pet's lives. That clearly isn't the case with you, I sense a great amount of love and passion for hedgies in you. Please, lets be friends?


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Can you post links to the articles you say show diet as a possible cause for WHS? I've researched alot about it but haven't found any that say that. 

Thanks


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## lmg_319 (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm a little offended by this entire thread as first of all, my hedgie is overweight and I have done everything is my power to get him to eat veggies. I know some of you have been successful, but after 2 months of trying you tend to give up. He will not touch anything but kibble and chicken. He hates all baby foods and I have tried every kind out there.



izzy_prickly said:


> D is the only one I'd let slide really (who knows what a previous owner fed the poor little thing?) and only if the present owner was actively trying to get that animal to try fresh food on a nightly basis.


Why would I keep trying when I tried every night for two months and he never touched a thing. I have gotten very good advice from an experienced member on this forum and I did everything in my power to expand his diet and help his weight loss, but he wouldn't have any of it.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Look folks I can only apologize so many times. 

To those who think this thread is all about you and took it as a personal attack...if you love your pet and did try to better it's life then none of my snippy comments apply to you! I apologized to everyone in general for the way I came across, moderated my tone and focused on points relevant to the thread. I did not intend for this to be a hostile debate nor will I partcipate in one

In fact I'll go even further and say, you can all think I'm a jerk I really don't care. All I know is I apologized to everyone in general and more than once to the ONLY person who actually DESERVED a personal apology and now I seem to be the one under attack. 

As there seems to be many drama lovers on this site I'm sure this farewell wil be much appreciated for it''s melodrama. And trust me it is indeed a farewell.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

I am with lmg. I take exception to the generalization that owners here aren't doing research.

I have looked high and low for info, even translating pages into English; I have yet to find a good aite/article that discusses anything useful about WHS and certainly have never seen anything diet-related and have yet to find any recent articles about anything beyond basic hedgie care. If the info is out there (Russia seems to be leagues ahead of us in terms of research into hedgie care, for example) I. CANNOT. FIND. THEM. 

I have nothing but time and the desire to learn and share...but what? where? You post a link to a site and article and I will be aaaaaaall over it like white on rice.

I am still sitting here...waiting...


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

No one is attacking you! We are looking for info, you seemingly have it and state we don't, yet you won't share.

One link. That's all I ask. One link.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

I did not attack you, I just asked for a link that showed WHS could be diet related.....


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## lmg_319 (Oct 4, 2010)

I guess they left because they don't have a link...


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

izzy_prickly said:


> Hello all, new to the forum but not new to hedgies and other small insectivores. I just recently bought the sweetest little girl hedgie I've seen in a while. Playful, cuddly, very interactive. No issues just a question for the hedgie community at large...a little background first.
> 
> I also own sugar gliders, in an effort to improve their diet I began to do some truly exhaustive research. I discovered that they (among many other small to medium insectivores, in fact pretty much ANY insectivore kept in zoo's or privately) require the proper Calcium to Phosphorous ratio in their diet to help prevent diet/health deficiencies. With gliders it's hind leg paralysis, with Virginia Opossums it's metabolic bone disease...etc etc.
> 
> ...


re the ratio--yup, i've discovered pretty much the same thing through my russian circles... so yeah.

re the catfood: *i* don't feed much of it to my hedgies. not anymore.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

I challenge anyone to read these links in their entirety and come away NOT seriously questioning what they're feeding not only their pets but themselves. http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/m ... hosphorus/
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/t040600.asp
http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/calcium.htm
http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-grow ... nship.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_nutrition
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/hedgehog-faq/p ... on-11.html
http://hugonator.livejournal.com/377.html
http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com/ssg- ... -diet.html
http://www.sweet-sugar-gliders.com/ssg- ... -diet.html
http://www.redearslider.com/forum/viewt ... &view=next
http://petshub.com/forums/archive/index ... 67172.html
Obviously some ingredients in glider diets are not appropriate for hedgehogs, acacia gum, pollen etc. But clearly a 2 to 1 Cal/Phos ratio is what EVERY living thing DOES require.

p.s. it took me like 5 mins of googling to find most of these sites, two were provided to me by a friend.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Not diet related but more interesting reading.

http://www.jstor.org/action/showArticle ... 2F20096459
http://www.google.com/search?q=+Porphyr ... 1I7GGLA_en

Sounds a little like WHS?


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

Those sites are really good for general Ca and P knowledge but only a couple talk about Hedgehogs specifically and the one with the live journal even starts out with he never owned a pet hedgehog. It also goes on to say they don't see why they can't be given the same diet as European or Wild cousins. There's already lots of reason why they can't be given the same food and they aren't the same species so this holds no weight for me personally especially since they said they never owned one. There have been hedgehogs that have starved to death being feed European Insectivore diet for example. I would want to model a beginning diet after a proven method and then go from there. The other sites are about a bunch of other random species or they are explaining the benefits of Calcium and Phosphorus. Ca/P are very important in animals/people and isn't what is disputed but as far as I know the proper ratio or role isn't known yet in our pet hedgehogs. Then comes the issue of which ratio to start with and how to incorporate fresh sources for a Hedgie that refuses to eat it. What if the ratio that is used to begin with is wrong and does something to damage the hedgies system since its role is unknown? It doesn't mean to not try it but it's something that I consider for myself when I am deciding if I should add something or tweak the diet. 

You said it took you 5 minutes to google those sites but I think everyone was interested in the sites you said you already had from your research and the site with the link of Ca/P to HWS. I don't mean this to come off as argumentative. Hedgehog diets are something that is commonly gone through with a fine tooth comb to try to find improvements and is stressed over. If there is articles out there that does discuss findings in our pet Hedgehogs I am genuinely interested.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/comemeetmy ... lyhs1.html
http://www.suzsugargliders.com/hlpxray.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepnMC5c ... re=related


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

If you read those links thoroughly you'd understand that the calcium/phosphorus info is the whole point. Without a 2 to 1 cal phos ratio all living things can develop such things as cancer, organ calcification, organ failure, paralysis, calcium leaching of the bones and the list goes on. Hedgehogs, monkeys, reptiles, PEOPLE, no matter the species the effects can be devastating. I included the plant/soil/varied species info because I felt it illustrated the point even more.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

izzy_prickly said:


> http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/comemeetmyfamily/wobblyhs1.html
> http://www.suzsugargliders.com/hlpxray.htm
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepnMC5c ... re=related


Note:The Xrays aren't exactly the same but then a hedgie is way heavier than a glider and has thinner weaker legs.

Most especially take note of the video's


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

izzy_prickly said:


> If you read those links thoroughly you'd understand that the calcium/phosphorus info is the whole point. Without a 2 to 1 cal phos ratio all living things can develop such things as cancer, organ calcification, organ failure, paralysis, calcium leaching of the bones and the list goes on. Hedgehogs, monkeys, reptiles, PEOPLE, no matter the species the effects can be devastating. I included the plant/soil/varied species info because I felt it illustrated the point even more.


I include the glider info because it clearly shows another insectivore with a suspiciously whs-like malady that has been shown to be a dietary deficiency that can be prevented using the proper Ca/Ph ratio.


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

I have read through all of the links thoroughly and as I've said Ca/P is not disputed as important in animals. The most recent links are more troubling because I don't see how they are supportive. Laura site is very good and says that it has been speculated in the past that HWS may be diet related but that she herself believes it to be a Genetic disorder. The other link is a video of a hedgehog with WHS which is very sad but doesn't mention dietary reasons as being the cause. The other is of a sick sugar glider with a calcium deficiency but does not add support to what is being debated with hedgehogs, just shows an unfortunate situation in Suggies that is caused from not enough Ca. And the Sugar glider site is also species specific for them. Some of the information on the other sites you posted go on to say that you have to be careful because in an attempt to change levels to support a Ca/P level that you may inadvertently tip other precious balances such as Vitamin C for one example that could lead to problems with the body being able to absorb the Ca.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Hedgieonboard said:


> I have read through all of the links thoroughly and as I've said Ca/P is not disputed as important in animals. The most recent links are more troubling because I don't see how they are supportive. Laura site is very good and says that it has been speculated in the past that HWS may be diet related but that she herself believes it to be a Genetic disorder. The other link is a video of a hedgehog with WHS which is very sad but doesn't mention dietary reasons as being the cause. The other is of a sick sugar glider with a calcium deficiency but does not add support to what is being debated with hedgehogs, just shows an unfortunate situation in Suggies that is caused from not enough Ca. And the Sugar glider site is also species specific for them. Some of the information on the other sites you posted go on to say that you have to be careful because in an attempt to change levels to support a Ca/P level that you may inadvertently tip other precious balances such as Vitamin C for one example that could lead to problems with the body being able to absorb the Ca.


Again the calcium phosphorus info is the whole point. Without a 2 to 1 calcium to phosphorus ratio any and all living things will develop severe health deficiencies. If you read those links you certainly cannot deny that. And if you think hlp isn't well documented in gliders google it, it's not mentioned in the vid because anyone thats even done a little homework on gliders knows. If you had read the glider diet links a bit more carefully you'd see that they reccomend a wide variety. The whole point is how the foods are combined, if what you are doing is causing other vitamins to go out of wack/be deficient your doing it incorrectly. Hence me including prefigured recipes that are propely balanced. And I did take into account the dietary differences, I believe I did mention that of course hedgies shouldn't have gums, saps, pollen, almost every other food mentioned is something that we would feed a hedgie anyway. Funny you should mention Lauras site, it mentions whs as possibly diet related and she herself thinks its genetic, both concepts seem to have been entertained already in this thread.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

> And if you think hlp isn't well documented in gliders google it


Should read "well documented as a dietary deficiency."


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Perhaps it would have been better for me to say: most especially read the parts concerning the _effects_ of an improper calcium to phosphorus ratio.


izzy_prickly said:


> I challenge anyone to read these links in their entirety and come away NOT seriously questioning what they're feeding not only their pets but themselves. http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/m ... hosphorus/
> http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/t040600.asp
> http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/calcium.htm
> http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-grow ... nship.html
> ...


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

I don't see whats funny with me bring up Laura's site, I did because you listed it in the links but it says she thinks its genetic and doesn't thinks its dietary. From what I gathered from your argument you were thinking HWS is caused from dietary reasons and I was simply pointing out that listing that link did not further what you were saying when the person who wrote it says she believes it isn't dietary and that its genetic. 

You have also said that if I have read the links I would not disagree that Ca/P can cause health issues and as I have said many times I don't disagree so I'm not sure why you said this. But what I was getting at is I did not see the correlation of Hind Leg Paralysis which is caused by the lack of Calcium in Sugar Gliders to HWS which appears to be genetic. Yes they both may cause mobility issues but that does not necessarily mean they are comparable in cause. I was asking if you had information showing a correlation between HWS and diet to share it with everyone because I have not come across any articles like that.

Another thing to take in consideration is if you look on the nutritional evaluation of the cat foods many people feed that those do have Calcium and Phosphorus added in roughly a 2 to 1 ratio.

I have never said anything of the sort that Hind Leg Paralysis isn't or is well documented. The discussion was about Hedgehogs and am not going to take anymore time over a question that I feel was very obvious...

If there is articles about hedgehogs out there linking HWS to dietary reasons to please post them to share.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

I think you know I'm on to something regardless if I can show you a link unequivocally linking whs to a diet defciency or not. 

A very important question is why do you need some official verification when you yourself already made it very clear to me in this thread that means nothing. Vets, Zoos, Dr's any and all "official" info and or it's source is sadly lacking and are oftentimes wrong. 

I'm sorry the facts do speak for themselves, no one that truly read (not just skimmed) the info in those links can dispute there is at least a very distinct possiblity that I'm right. Show me the "official" site that can unequivocally say I'm not. Show me evidence just as compelling as what I showed you.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

> Excess phosphorus binds calcium and impairs its absorption from the intestines. Sources are soda pop and diets very high in animal protein.





> Deficiency Symptoms. These may include osteoporosis, rickets, non-union of fractures, tooth decay and insomnia. Teeth, fingers and other bones may be misshapen. Posture can be poor and legs bowed. Other symptoms are muscle cramps, irritability, hyperkinesis, hyperacidity, bruising, high blood pressure, fight-or-flight reactions, fast oxidation, lead and cadmium toxicity, tetany and cancer.


This is a link to the wiki definition of tetany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetany_(medical_sign)


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

izzy_prickly said:


> > Excess phosphorus binds calcium and impairs its absorption from the intestines. Sources are soda pop and diets very high in animal protein.
> 
> 
> [quote:2yhg0hqu]Deficiency Symptoms. These may include osteoporosis, rickets, non-union of fractures, tooth decay and insomnia. Teeth, fingers and other bones may be misshapen. Posture can be poor and legs bowed. Other symptoms are muscle cramps, irritability, hyperkinesis, hyperacidity, bruising, high blood pressure, fight-or-flight reactions, fast oxidation, lead and cadmium toxicity, tetany and cancer.


This is a link to the wiki definition of tetany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetany_(medical_sign)[/quote:2yhg0hqu]
The quotes about the symptoms of excess phosphorus are from just one of the sites in my list. All on their own they are extremely compelling.

Edit: tetany definition from another source http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art ... ekey=13312


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm guessing that amongst the number of cases of tetany that were not caused by an etreme overdose of phophorus, there is at least a % that have a genetic predisposition to an inabilty to absorb calcium properly.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

> Tetany: A combination of signs and symptoms, due usually to low calcium, that can include:
> 
> •Hyperreflexia (overactive neurological reflexes),
> •Carpopedal spasm (spasms of the hands and feet),
> ...


The first two might be relevant.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

The ridiculous thing is wether or not whs is caused by a dietary deficiency or not, too much phophorus (not to mention animal proteins) can lead to severe health problems including death in all living creatures, INCLUDING our hybrid pigmy hedgehogs! That alone makes this entire thread relevant, that alone should be reason enough to share new information and not refute it just because what we know has always worked. Well sort of worked, I use that phrase because so many of you at least know/admit that current diets are probably lacking and only sort of work.

I feel like this thread from the beginning has strayed from it's focus, the one thing that makes us all get so het up. Hedgehogs.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Hm, so apparently no one gives a crap about any of this, why should that really surprise me with the responses I got. Well the info is there, if anybody can actually read AND correlate the facts. 

p.s. mixing 3 thousand types of kibble isn't gonna fix it folks, and the C/P ratios being right in kibble means NOTHING when the protein/fat are FAR too high.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Also, some of you might want to compare the insect nutrtional value chart on this site with other similar chart's. The one on HC claims (for example) that mealworms have around 3 times as much calcium as phophorus....every other chart I've looked at says the exact opposite. Cal/phos levels weren't the only glaring discrepencies.


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## lmg_319 (Oct 4, 2010)

izzy_prickly said:


> Hm, so apparently no one gives a crap about any of this, why should that really surprise me with the responses I got. Well the info is there, if anybody can actually read AND correlate the facts.
> 
> p.s. mixing 3 thousand types of kibble isn't gonna fix it folks, and the C/P ratios being right in kibble means NOTHING when the protein/fat are FAR too high.


No one answered because you came on here and attacked everyone and the info on this site. I've really had enough of reading your demeaning posts.


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I don't think it's because we don't care. Obviously we all love our hedgies & want them to be as healthy as possible. 
Speaking personally, it's all a bit over my head. What I would like to see is the "dummy's guide". It's funny to me that I spend more time thinking about hedgie health than my own. Dr. says take a multi-vitamin, so I do. I couldn't begin to tell you what's all in it or what it does to/for me.
I hope this is not over-simplifying things, but this is what I would like to know...
1. What does calcium do? (besides be good for the bones)
2. What does phosphorous do?
3. Do they work together somehow? Is that why the ratio is supposed to be important?
4. What would you recommend to 'fix' the ratio? Specifically, what fruits, veggies, etc would be good to try & add to the hedgies diet?
#4 is the one I'm most interested in. Because if all I have to do is add in some cooked spinach or something, that's totally do-able. I would be fine doing that anyway, just because I know it's healthy,


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

(Pffft - ran out of room)
Anyway, If you want to talk to/discuss with scientists, dietician, doctors, I can't help. however, if ther is something that can help keep my hedgis healthy & prolong their lives, I am interested. 
But once all the smart people are done, will someone please just tell me what it means!


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## Sarahg (Feb 18, 2010)

PJM said:


> once all the smart people are done, will someone please just tell me what it means!


 :lol: Thanks, PJM! I've been reading the whole thread, and that's exactly what I was thinking.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

What a waste of time reading this has been! :roll: I could have had a V-8! :lol:


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

No one answered because it's the same repetitive info that has nothing to directly link whs and diet. You come here saying that diet is the probable cause of whs, we ask for more info, you give a few links, get asked for more info that actually talks about hedgehogs, diet and whs, and you finally claim there is none, but continue to regurgitate the same argument about calcium and phosphorus. 

Well, no one has denied it's importance. No one single person. Yet in your mind, we're all disagreeing with you and then you proceed to call us stupid, in kinder terms but the meaning is there. Well, do you really expect us to subject ourselves to your snide remarks? We've got the info you could give us, no matter what we say or ask, you will just say we are stupid for not being able to read. Everyone here is just your average owner, not some scientist who does vast amounts of research. We are all just doing the best we can with the information we have. If you had come here saying "calcium and phosphorous ratios are very important, the symptoms of poor ratios are very similar to whs and I think it's possible they may be related. Perhaps some of the whs cases out there may have been caused by bad ratios" etc etc. Rather than just 
coming here and immediatly attacking everything we do or say. As said above, perhaps instead of just saying what we do is wrong, that our info is wrong, it would be nice to have suggestions on how to fix it. 

Perhaps if you are so passionate about this, you should conduct the research yourself and write a paper on it. I'm sure many of us would love to read the report and the end result. It'd probably take 2 litters of babies, one with whs in their family and one without. Then one baby in each litter will be the constant with the proper ratios, while the others get ranges if the ratios. And then just add in the necrosis reports at the end and you'd have a real solid argument and proof.


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## ShutUpAndSmile (Mar 7, 2011)

PJM said:


> I don't think it's because we don't care. Obviously we all love our hedgies & want them to be as healthy as possible.
> Speaking personally, it's all a bit over my head. What I would like to see is the "dummy's guide". It's funny to me that I spend more time thinking about hedgie health than my own. Dr. says take a multi-vitamin, so I do. I couldn't begin to tell you what's all in it or what it does to/for me.
> I hope this is not over-simplifying things, but this is what I would like to know...
> 1. What does calcium do? (besides be good for the bones)
> ...


lol thank you. I feel the same way. :3


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm glad hedgie and immortalia got here first or I would've wasted my time looking at a gazillion threads that, as it appears, are about hedgehogs and their dietary needs.

Again, when there are sites related specifically to ehdgehogs and their diets which contain information from recognized professionals such as vetrinarians versus 'experienced owners', THEN you will have my complete attention.

I am utterly amazed at how someone can turn a discussion about diet, of all things, into a long defensive thread...amazing...

izzy...do you own a hedgehog?


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## lmashbri6983 (May 29, 2009)

LarryT said:


> What a waste of time reading this has been! :roll: I could have had a V-8! :lol:


Haha thanks Larry, agreed! I'm doubting that I'll get any useful information out of this discussion, if it continues like it has been, with 'attacks' and heresay and whatif's, etc... BUT I gotta mention, I could've had a FEW V-8's!!! :lol: Maybe from now on I'll make sure to have one in hand when reading this discussion, and just *hope* for any facts or amazing info to come my way!


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

Do V-8s have calcium & phosphorous? I could share with my hedgis & we'd all benefit! :lol: 

(I'm playfully teasing to lighten the mood - NOT making fun.  )


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

PJM said:


> Do V-8s have calcium & phosphorous? I could share with my hedgis & we'd all benefit! :lol:
> 
> (I'm playfully teasing to lighten the mood - NOT making fun.  )


 :lol: 
I was thinking the same thing but am incapable of not sounding sarcastic...didn't think I'd be able to add much to the conversation. :roll:

You, however, did it and did it well, as per usual. :mrgreen:


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I must admit, I lost track after the first page and have done nothing more than skim over the rest. I admire those of you who stuck it out trying to get some accurate facts.


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## snuffles (May 16, 2009)

After searching the real literature and not just "googling" I could only find articles about bone density


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

snuffles said:


> After searching the real literature and not just "googling" I could only find articles about bone density


Exactly! I refuse to read anything that's just "googled" in terms of health and nutrition... If the OP had provided us with scientific evidence then I would probably had read all of it... But wikipedia and YouTube videos? Come on. :roll:


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Omg this is all my fault...I'm so sorry!

Imagine my surprise when I went to register on HC only to realize my information (email etc) had already been used to register an account... 

Strange things can happen when you do research on hedgehog diets with some one your in the process of breaking up with. Well, if that person also happens to be a crazy jerk.This seems to be the latest in a string of weird mean behavior perpetrated by my ex that I've uncovered. 

Let me stop right here and say I cant apologize enough to the owners of this site and EVERY member on this forum, please understand I had no idea this was going on or I would certainly have put a stop to it. 

Let me also say I too have never seen ANY info/site/text positively linking whs to diet problems. I did call and ask him just a little bit ago btw, and geeeeeewhatayaknow he couldnt produce the site name or ANY info about it. Or any justification for this thread for that matter. I knew we were arguing about some of this, little did I know he went and picked a fight with you poor folks too. 

I feel so responsible, if it weren't for me he wouldn't have posted this, couldn't have posted this. I'm sure he wouldn't have even been thinking about hedgehogs if not for me. All of it seems to be based on conversations I had with him after I had been doing research, all sort of strung together in a weird demented way.

Again I am sorry to all those who had to suffer through this crap, site owners, forum members, children who may have been reading it over your shoulder, ANYONE that was negatively affected by his bile.

Ed


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

I wouldnt worry about us too much. As you can see: we can hold our own. 

Sorry about your troubles. Hopefull you don't gave the same issues with your email...credit cards... Bank accounts.


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

MissC said:


> I wouldnt worry about us too much. As you can see: we can hold our own.
> 
> Sorry about your troubles. Hopefull you don't gave the same issues with your email...credit cards... Bank accounts.


Doesnt seem to be any money missing, cards dont have any weird charges, the dog and hedgehog arent missing.. but, 2 friends thought I said absolutely horrible things about them, another is convinced I tried to get her fired. Theres a few more things like that but those are the worst so far. I really must add this screen name to the list, not only do I hate it but it's not exactly very friendly.


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## MissC (Nov 15, 2010)

Why don't you delete thus account and start a new one with a name you DO like?


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## izzy_prickly (Apr 11, 2011)

Thanks, how do I go about doing that?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I think you'd have to talk to one of the board mods about deleting the account, if it can be done. I'd ask Nancy or Hedgiepets, if they can't do it, they'll know who can.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

You have to ask Hedgiepets or Kalandra. I'm just a mod and can't do it.


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