# Raw Diet Update



## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

Hello everyone!

As some of you know, I have been feeding my hedgehog Sebastian a raw and natural diet. He has been on it almost the entire time I've had him, had I brought him home as a baby in mid-September. I thought now would be a good time to give an update on how he's doing and things I've noticed with the diet.

First of all, the diet itself consists of one part raw meat (usually free-range chicken) amd two parts veggies, with sometimes some added veg in the dish with his bugs. The meat as well as the vegetables come from a local shop called Woody's Pet Deli, which has two locations in Minneapolis and St. Paul, MN. If you wanted to replicate this, I recommend a premade frozen raw diet like Stella and Chewey's, that would be easiest. I mix the vegetables and meat together which is likely why Sebastian eats them all with no complaint. Along with his meat and veggies, he gets a few mealworms and a few frozen crickets or darkling beetles. I gutload the crickets before I freeze them, but I don't want to risk any getting loose in my house so in the freezer they go.

Tonight I weighed him and he was around 273 grams. And here I was thinking he was getting pudgy, and it turns out that he could actually stand to gain a little! So I will probably give him five mealies instead of just three. He doesn't seem underweight, though, so he might just be small. It's hard for me to compare, because my last hedgehog was a very petite fellow and Sebastian already seems quite large to me.

Other than that, he is a very active, healthy guy with a healthy appetite. He loves the meat and veg mix, and he cleans his little dish every night. I freeze the mixture into ice cube trays and he gets two cubes every night. There's normally hardly a speck left, although when he does get the stuff on the fleece it can be difficult to get off once it has dried on there.

One noticable difference has been in his poop. His poops are smaller and less mushy. I anticipated this, having experienced the same phenomena when transitioning my cats and ferrets to raw food - their feces become more compact and more dry. It also stinks less. There is so much in the kibble that they can't digest, so they poop it out. When the food they are eating is more digestble, there is less waste. Thus, less poop and the poop is less messy. Cleaning the wheel is 1000% easier now. His feet don't get quite so coated in poop. There's sometimes a little stuck on his toenails, but no straight up "poopy boots".

I hope my experience will inspire others to give raw and natural feeding a chance. I believe it to be a healthier option, and although I can't make any guarantees to its benefits health-wise, just the benefit of an easier to clean wheel and the lack of poopy boots make it worth it.


----------



## DesertHedgehogs (Apr 2, 2013)

273 is on the small side for a hedgehog , but as long as his sides are doing l l or ( ) and not ) ( then he sounds like he's doing well. I'm interested to see how his health progresses, whether he develops any diseases, and how long he lives. Cat food is certainly a better option than hedgehog food, but raw does seem like it should be better than both if done correctly.


----------



## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

Raw foods, meats and insects contain a high amount of phosphorus so make sure your hedgie is well supplemented with a higher calcium intake and lots of fresh, drinking water.

I also feed raw (live prey, even) to one of my hedgies but only because that one doesn't eat kibbles and fruits/veggies.


----------



## Bowsy (Nov 13, 2013)

Thank you very much for sharing your progress. I will also soon begin transitioning my new hedgehog Inanna to a raw commercial food (Nature's variety), and keep everyone updated. I am convinced that we can eventually observe great improvements in hedgehog health and lifetime by such real food approaches.


----------



## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

Would you mind Pming me some sample menues? I am seriously considering transitioning my hedgie to a more natural diet and would find this very helpful to help me come up with ideas  I wish I had a deli like that here that carry the meats like that.


----------



## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

If I am not mistaken the meats you buy conatian bones right? with bones you wouldnt' have to suppliment calicum?


----------



## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

DesertHedgehogs said:


> 273 is on the small side for a hedgehog , but as long as his sides are doing l l or ( ) and not ) ( then he sounds like he's doing well. I'm interested to see how his health progresses, whether he develops any diseases, and how long he lives. Cat food is certainly a better option than hedgehog food, but raw does seem like it should be better than both if done correctly.


His sides appear to be a little ( ) which is why I thought he was going to be overweight. Again, my only experience is with my previous hedgehog, Henry, who was even smaller (no idea on weight, I didn't have a scale, and he ate kibbles) but lived a good four and a half years. I am going to add some more mealies amd next time I'm at the store I'll pick up waxworms again.

As for calcium, the ground meat contains small pieces of bone. I was concerned at first, whether or not he would be able to eat these or if it wad even safe for him to do so. I think I posted a thread here and nobody seemed to know, so I took a guess based on others who had done raw feeding. He eats the small, ground bones without a problem and is digesting them. You can see some of the pieces in his poop. You get the same thing with the cats and ferrets. They get plenty of calcium from the bone. I also believe the veggie mix has a pretty high calcium green included in it... spinach or collards, can't remember which. The veggie mix also comes from Woody's Pet Deli, and it's just a frozen blend of greens, carrots, etc. It isn't a puree but it's finely chopped or ground so it's easy to mix with the meat. I could make my own, but buying theirs is easier and I am supporting a local business I dearly love.

Ceopet - I would love to PM you sample menus if I had any, lol  It's just the same every night, the two cubes of mixed chicken and veggies, and the only thing that changes is what goes in the bug dish. I could buy a different meat, but so far he likes chicken. I might do turkey next time for variety though.

To replicate what I do, I recommend researching BARF diets or buying a premade food like Stella and Chewey's or Nature's Variety. The benefit to making your own via the BARF method is that you can mix the vegetables in with the meat, making them more palatable. But, it is a pain in the butt getting the right ratios of organ meats and everything. It all depends on how willing your hedgie is to eat his greens I guess.

I will look up the list of veggies in the Woody's veggie mix, to give you something to go on for making your own.


----------



## Bowsy (Nov 13, 2013)

Quick question about raw feeding methodology:

Do you leave the raw food in Sebastian's cage overnight? If so, any concerns about the quality of the raw food deteriorating due to bacteria, cage heating, etc? Any suggestions to avoid these issues, or is that timeframe not a concern? In essence, when do you give the food, and how long before you take it away?

Many thanks!


----------



## abbys (Oct 13, 2012)

Keep in mind that hedgies are naturally teardrop shaped and they're supposed to look a little round. A l l shape isn't ideal. Sounds like he might just be petite.


----------



## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

lessthansign3 said:


> His sides appear to be a little ( ) which is why I thought he was going to be overweight. Again, my only experience is with my previous hedgehog, Henry, who was even smaller (no idea on weight, I didn't have a scale, and he ate kibbles) but lived a good four and a half years. I am going to add some more mealies amd next time I'm at the store I'll pick up waxworms again.
> 
> As for calcium, the ground meat contains small pieces of bone. I was concerned at first, whether or not he would be able to eat these or if it wad even safe for him to do so. I think I posted a thread here and nobody seemed to know, so I took a guess based on others who had done raw feeding. He eats the small, ground bones without a problem and is digesting them. You can see some of the pieces in his poop. You get the same thing with the cats and ferrets. They get plenty of calcium from the bone. I also believe the veggie mix has a pretty high calcium green included in it... spinach or collards, can't remember which. The veggie mix also comes from Woody's Pet Deli, and it's just a frozen blend of greens, carrots, etc. It isn't a puree but it's finely chopped or ground so it's easy to mix with the meat. I could make my own, but buying theirs is easier and I am supporting a local business I dearly love.
> 
> ...


I will look up Stella and Chewy's and see if I can find somewhere that sells it. and the BARF diet  Thanks for looking what veggies are in the mix 

ETA I will definatly have to be sneaky about the veggies she won't eat any on their own lol


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Woohoo, an update!  Thank you so much for coming back to share your experiences with raw diets so far. I'm glad to hear Sebastian is doing well with his food. The veggie mix sounds like what I've done before for birds & a few other animals - I got the idea to chop/mince & mix veggies from a parrot owner's blog, she called it Chop. That's one of the things I want to try with future hedgies, so I'm glad to hear that Sebastian accepts it mixed with the meat. 

Ceopet - Another diet that at least one person feeding a raw diet on here uses is called Nature's Variety, so that's another option if you decide to use a commercial raw diet to start with!

I'm going to add this thread to the sticky on raw diets so that it's easy to find again.


----------



## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

Do you use the cat or dog ones?


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

From what I can tell (though I only looked at the chicken formula), everything is the exact same between the dog's & cat's formulas - ingredients and analysis. So I would guess it doesn't matter much, just that the medallions would likely be the easiest form to get for feeding to hedgehogs.


----------



## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

Only give what your hedgie could eat. Giving a bit more on a first attempt is ideal so you have an idea on how much your hedgie will eat. Most raw meats are processed to be cleaned and packed anyways so bacterial growth after half an hour should not be an issue. Be aware though that warm/thawed meat starts producing lactic acid after some time that could cause mild digestive issues with hedgies. Boiling half-eaten (but not spoiled) raw meat should lengthen its shelf life. Do not attempt to refridgerate half-eaten raw meats since this has already been in contact with hedgie's saliva and would only promote bacterial or mold growth while inside the fridge.

Oh, and also take note that chicken meat spoils faster than beef or pork meat upon exposure to air


----------



## SpikeMoose (Dec 9, 2012)

I use the chicken and the duck raw bites, Natures Variety. I can get them right in the freezer at Petco. There is no difference and it's much cheaper to just get the raw bites than the "cat formula".
Bites are tiny so I put them in a special stainless steel dish in the cage at 10 and they are thawed by the time hedgies are active around 10:15-10:30. They finish the bites first, if I go in there at 12 the bites are gone. I give them a few other things, I'll create a post about my version of a partial raw diet.


----------



## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

Please do!


----------



## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

Bowsy said:


> Quick question about raw feeding methodology:
> 
> Do you leave the raw food in Sebastian's cage overnight? If so, any concerns about the quality of the raw food deteriorating due to bacteria, cage heating, etc? Any suggestions to avoid these issues, or is that timeframe not a concern? In essence, when do you give the food, and how long before you take it away?
> 
> Many thanks!


The raw food stays in overnight. It's frozen when I give it to him, usually around 7 or 8 at night, and when he comes out (usually not until the lights go out in the bedroom by 9ish) he starts eating right away. I'm sure he doesn't finish it all immediately, but I do place the dish on the side of the cage that is not directly under the heater so it won't thaw as quickly.

As for bacteria, I am not too concerned. In the wild, hedgehogs are scavengers, and likely eat things like carrion. Their ability to digest these things has not changed with domesticity - that's always a concern with people when it comes to raw feeding of any type of animal. That isn't to say I would leave old food in the cage, but I believe if you are starting with a frozen or refridgerated meat, leaving it overnight is acceptable, especially because it will likely be consumed within the first few hours. I perhaps need to stay up late one of these nights to see how long it takes him to eat it all.

I'll be stopping by Woody's tomorrow to pick up more meat for the cats and ferrets, and while I am there I'll ask about the veggie mix. I think they list it on the smaller containers but I've been buying the big 2 lbs tubs lately. Some people have had success introducing vegetables by mixing veggie and meat baby foods. Those might be a good way to start. I got very lucky with Sebastian in that he's very open to trying new foods. My first hedgehog, Henry, wanted nothing but kibble, and this wouldn't have worked with him.


----------



## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

lessthansign3 said:


> As for bacteria, I am not too concerned. In the wild, hedgehogs are scavengers, and likely eat things like carrion. Their ability to digest these things has not changed with domesticity - that's always a concern with people when it comes to raw feeding of any type of animal.


Actually it did change. Also, hedgehogs are opportunistic omnivores and not scavengers. They can hunt for their own food and would only rely to scavenging as a last resort or if food is scarce. Domesticated hedgehogs will not scavenge on stuff that doesn't taste/smell nice to them


----------



## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

Tongue_Flicker said:


> Actually it did change. Also, hedgehogs are opportunistic omnivores and not scavengers. They can hunt for their own food and would only rely to scavenging as a last resort or if food is scarce. Domesticated hedgehogs will not scavenge on stuff that doesn't taste/smell nice to them


I would certainly be interested to know in what ways their digestive system, which evolved over thousands if not millions of years, has changed over the course of a few decades. If it has changed significanfly, that would be pretty amazing. Nevertheless, myself and others have proven that their basic ability to eat and digest raw meat remains the same.

As to what wild hedgehogs eat, I believe it largely depends on the species as to what category they fall in to. The African ones do more hunting, whereas the European varieties have been known to frequent tipped garbage cans and backyard gardens. They will take an easy meal if they can get it. At least, this is what I recall reading, but perhaps some new research has come out recently?


----------



## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

Domestication does not take place in a few decades. At least a century is needed. As for hedgies, fyi, african species of hedgehogs have been domesticated since the time of the ancient romans. I'm not debating about them eating raw meat, do not mistake, i do feed live prey to my hedgies (and i'm not talking about just live insects).


----------



## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

http://books.google.com/books?id=WG...X&ei=2QTcUoaiGLWgsASho4HwDw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwCjgK

It took me less than ten minutes to find this. The hedgehogs we keep today have been bred for perhaps 25, 30 years, and they are considered domestic. As for the Romans, they did keep a species of hedgehog, but we don't know if they actually bred them or not and they are not related to today's domestic hedgehog.

Nevertheless, the fact remains that their basic digestive capabilities have not changed so significantly. The same goes for my ferrets, who have been domesticated since Roman times, and have had no difficulties adjusting from kibble to meat. Same also goes for cats and for dogs. They were not born to eat kibble. Kibble is a relatively new thing, created in the 50s (I think, could have been 40s or 60s) to make feeding pets easier. Before that, cats hunted and dogs got table scraps. I assume ferrets were fed raw back then, though they were likely a specialty pet kept by people who actually used them for their original purpose - hunting rabbits. Cats, dogs, and ferrets did not change over the decades they ate kibble, and all are still able to digest raw meat.


----------



## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

My point is, is you're gonna feed raw might as well make it as fresh as possible. If you're expecting your hedgie to scavenge for food then might as well let loose in some trash bin.


----------



## KevinHog (Jan 19, 2014)

*How do I transition from kibble to raw*

Hi,
New to the forum and to hedgehogs.
Just registered today.

I am interested in the raw diet for my new hedgie Kevin. I already feed my dog a commercially raw diet ("Stella and chewie" and "Nature's Variety") so I already have it in my freezer. Currently Kevin is on a dry mix 50% Muzuri insectivore diet pellets (recommended by my exotic vet) an 25% Blue wilderness for cats and 25% Nature's Variety raw boost for dogs. This is supplemented with fresh veggies and herbs as well as Gerber baby food stage 1 veggies.
Kevin seems to like the baby food better than fresh (weird). He also gets a few (4-5) live meal worms a day.

***So a few questions: in your opinion**** 
How should I go about transitioning to raw?
What part of the diet above should I feed with the raw?
Do I need to add anything else? Am I missing anything?

Thanks for any advice.:smile:


----------



## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

KevinHog said:


> Hi,
> New to the forum and to hedgehogs.
> Just registered today.
> 
> ...


Hi there kevin, it would best if you started your own thread so there would be more people to read your concern


----------



## Annie&Tibbers (Apr 16, 2013)

> Hi there kevin, it would best if you started your own thread so there would be more people to read your concern


Yup, local forum culture is highly in favour of new threads. To do that, navigate to the appropriate sub-forum subject-section, then click the button at the upper-left that says, "New Thread."

Welcome to the forum! Check out this awesome careguide! I have no useful advice on raw diets!


----------



## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

Tongue_Flicker said:


> My point is, is you're gonna feed raw might as well make it as fresh as possible. If you're expecting your hedgie to scavenge for food then might as well let loose in some trash bin.


I completely agree with you on that point. I always set the food out in a frozen form so it stays fresh longer, and I highly recommend this method. Sebastian will eat from the cube as it thaws. Placing the dish so it isn't directly under the heater will help keep it frozen longer.

So I got that list of veggies from Woody's yesterday. Their veggie mix contains cabbage, spinach, carrots, green beans, celery, broccoli, and potatoes. I didn't realize there were potatoes in the mix, but I don't think they take up a huge percentage if I can look at the product and not realize it even contains them. The rest of the veggies are good, although cabbage and broccoli (all members of the brassica family - kale, cauliflower, brussel sprouts) are known to cause gas in some animals, but I haven't seen any problems in Sebastian.

All in all, I think it's a good mix of vegetables, minus the potatoes. Another veggie you might try instead would be peas. I also know that Sebastian likes brussel sprouts and romaine lettuce, as I've fed them separately along with his bugs. I would absolutely avoid corn - it has little nutritional value, is high in sugar, and don't we avoid kibbles that contain corn products? So even fresh corn would be a no-no. I would personally also avoid bell peppers unless someone can chime in saying they are okay. I wouldn't want to upset any little tummies with a spicy pepper - I know peppers don't really agree with me too much 

And yes, if you have any questions about starting to raw feed your own hedgies, feel free to start up a new thread and hopefully we can get you started


----------



## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks for the update  I'm glad Sebastian is doing well on his diet!

I've been feeding a mix of cat food and a more natural diet. 
My hedgehog is a rehome and he was overweight when I got him back in August but he's at a much healthier weight now (560g). I started out with giving him a lower fat kibble but I've been adding more and more other foods and I've been cutting back on the kibble. He still gets some kibble and wet cat food, which he loves. But he also gets raw meat (I buy frozen 'sausages' for cats, they are made of muscle meat, organ meat and bones - there are several options, like chicken, turkey, beef or rabbit), eggs, pinkie mice, all kinds of insects and fruits and veggies. He eats everything I put in his bowl although he has his favourites (he loves raw rabbit meat)



Tongue_Flicker said:


> Actually it did change. Also, hedgehogs are
> opportunistic omnivores and not scavengers. They can hunt for their own food and would only rely to scavenging as a last resort or if food is scarce. Domesticated hedgehogs will not scavenge on stuff that doesn't taste/smell nice to them


This is not entirely true - it's not like their digestive system changed after a few years of 'domestication'. I'm not saying you should feed your pet spoiled meat, of course you shouldn't, but they are definitely scavengers. They're opportunist. They eat everything they find and go for the easiest option.

In Africa the ancestors of our pet hedgehogs are often considered more of a pest because they make such a huge mess of garbage bins. 
It depends on where they live. If they live close to people, they have the easy option of eating our leftovers. 
I see it with the hedgehogs around my house as well.


----------



## shmurciakova (Sep 7, 2008)

Thanks for all the info. guys! I have currently an overweight hedgehog and had one in the past which would have been considered obese. Both of them were on a diet of cat kibbles after having originally been on hedgehog food.
I am very interested in getting my hedgie onto a lower carb meal plan. I am concerned though about too much protein as I have been told that it is hard on their kidneys. How do you all reconcile that issue? Just wondering,
Susan H.


----------



## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

To ensure he's not getting too much protein, I feed Sebastian plenty of veggies. Many hedgehogs won't take just plain vegetables, but if you mix the veggies with meat, they find them quite delicious. Try introducing some veggies by mixing some vegetable and meat baby foods and giving those


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Also, keep in mind that many of the warnings about high protein mostly applies to kibble - dry protein. Kidneys need moisture to help process protein, so if the animal isn't drinking enough to help the kidneys process dry kibble, that can be hard on them. And once the protein gets up there...it's hard or nearly impossible for the animal to drink enough water. Wet protein like wet cat food, or cooked/raw meat, is much more natural for any animal, and the moisture in the food helps the kidneys with processing the higher protein. That's why wet cat food diets are a lot better for cats - for the most part, they don't drink much water at all, no matter what their food is, because they evolved to get most of their water from their food. They don't usually compensate enough to make up for a dry food. Hedgehogs don't need as much protein as cats since they're opportunistic omnivores, so the veggies do help with making sure they get some fiber, etc., as well as other necessary vitamins.


----------



## Mczahar (Mar 14, 2014)

lessthansign3 said:


> One noticable difference has been in his poop. His poops are smaller and less mushy. I anticipated this, having experienced the same phenomena when transitioning my cats and ferrets to raw food - their feces become more compact and more dry. It also stinks less. There is so much in the kibble that they can't digest, so they poop it out. When the food they are eating is more digestble, there is less waste. Thus, less poop and the poop is less messy. Cleaning the wheel is 1000% easier now. His feet don't get quite so coated in poop. There's sometimes a little stuck on his toenails, but no straight up "poopy boots".


I am so happy you mentioned this! I have been slowly transitioning my girl over to a raw diet but because of how her poops have been it's been making me nervous that I wasn't feeding her everything she needed! We were out of own for two days and to make it easy on our sitter I just had a dry insectivore kibble, some dried crickets (my love doesn't like mealies :/ ) and wet cat food. The first night we returned home she pooped up a storm. I switched her back to veggies and raw and her poop went back to being less.

SAME THING you mentioned. No poop boots, cleaner wheel and easy clean up.

Again, thank you so much for sharing! Glad to know my girly is getting everything she needs!


----------



## wonger (Sep 25, 2013)

Does anyone know where I can purchase nature valley in Canada without paying 100$ for it? lol


----------



## wonger (Sep 25, 2013)

Nvm found it at petland lol. Way cheaper than online lol


----------

