# A few issues



## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

Okay so here's my issue. I work at a reptile shop, have owned reptiles all my life and my coworker and I pride ourselves in providing the best first-hand knowledge to all our customers. Well, our shop was recently bought out and the new owner decided to throw exotic mammals into the mix, the first of which being hedgehogs. We've been doing quite a bit of research trying to figure out what to feed these guys, what temperature to keep them at, etc. We have a friend/customer that has a hegie and she's been helping us a little, but I wanted to get some second and third opinions. I've been looking through books for info but can't find much more than natural history, information on bathing, etc. but nothing on simple care.

The first issue is sexing them. From what I've read, I'm looking for a "belly button" on a male? We have 3 hedgies in one cage approximately 3' x 3'. We haven't noticed any fighting other than one instance of fighting over a superworm. However, I'm not sure what's going on at night so I want to be sure they're all females.

Second, I'm not sure if these are African or European hedgies, what is the difference, how can I tell?
Here's a picture of them:









Third, we are currently keeping them on aspen bedding. They seem to possibly be coughing from it, or is this just a normal noise they make? I saw on here somewhere to use fleece liners but I'm not sure if we'd be able to acquire that. If not, what is the best type of bedding for them?

Any other info you can give me would be greatly appreciated. We are trying desperately not to be a stereotypical pet store selling animals we know nothing about and I would hate for anything to happen to the little guys  The only mammals we've ever kept are dogs and cats so we have absolutely NO experience with any type of small mammals. Thanks in advance!


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

1. If you cant tell, then they really dont need to be in the same cage. they need a wheel and an igloo. superworms shouldnt be fed unless you cut the head off first.

2. they are definitely african pygmy. be sure and feed them low fat,/ high portein cat food from the list in the nutrition link. hedgehog food is bad at best, and lethal in some cases.

3. fleece liners arent that hard to get, you can just get fleece blanket and cut it to fit the floor. the bedding in the pic looks more like mulch. if you use aspen it should be kiln dried shavings and as dust free as possible. or carefresh is another option.

you can read all through the forums and find alot more answers to you questions


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

Like I said, they were dumped on us and I'm trying to learn as much as possible. We gave them a wheel and some half-logs that they sleep in. We're feeding them a cat food that looked good from what we read at a book, meat as first ingredients, etc. but I think the fat content may be too high. I forget the brand but I'll write down the name tomorrow. The hedgehog food we got from our supplier (after the hedgehogs arrived, which is why I went and got them cat food) is 8-in1 which I noticed was on the "good list" of hedgehog foods. However, I am a firm disbeliever in processed pet foods and I know the deal with all that...since we are a reptile shop we have access to crickets, superworms, mealworms, and waxowrms. The shop stays at about 70 degrees right now and we have an infrared bulb over them.


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

please dont misconstrue what i said as criticism, i was just numbering them more for my benifit so i could make sure i was covering all of the points you mentioned....they really need 15% fat or less....what kind of wheel do you have them on? it must be a solid bottom to keep them from hurting themselves. and 70 is a little cool...you may want to use a ceramic heat emitter with a thermostat....i would be afraid the ir light would cook them...lol


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

70 is the absolute coolest and the infrared is only a 60W. They like to sleep near it but not directly under it. And I think the fat content was something like 30%. We went to Petsmart, looked in a book and got what looked right but I guess we missed the part about the fat content. Do you think they'd be ok on the 8-in-1 and insects? And which insects should we be feeding them, how many and how often?


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

And yes the wheel is a large plastic one but they don't appear to be using it.


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

i wouldnt rely on the 8 in 1 as a staple food, more of a treat if anything.....i currently feed mine castor and pollux natural ultrmix indoor and mix in grape nuts for more fiber. and are you using a water bottle or dish? most of the books about hedgies are very outdated from what i hear and some of them even have practices in them that have been found to be fatal to african pygmy hedgehogs.


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

mongoose5971 said:


> And yes the wheel is a large plastic one but they don't appear to be using it.


they are nocturnal so they would only be using it at night...if there is only one for 3 hedgies, they may be fighting over it....all three need to run or they run the risk of getting obese. i know these are more for long term than anything else, but they need to be as happy and healthy as possible before going home with new mommy or daddy


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah I ordered some books on hedgies chinchillas and sugar gliders (which we are also supposed to be getting in) and the book was more funny than entertaining. I thought I'd be able to learn about them from the book but it really told me nothing so now I'm on the internet trying to find out as much as possible. And they will (hopefully) not be at our shop long-term so I know it sounds horrible but we really can't spend a whole lot on food, just the best thing to feed them for a reasonable cost. I know if I go out buying three bags of cat food the owner will wonder what I'm doing when we have hedgehog food in the store. All of this is exactly why I worked at a reptile store...not one that sells mammals. Anyway, I just want the best for the little guys, but I really can't afford a whole lot, it's not exactly my money. I'm thinking since we haven't used much of the cat food Petsmart might let me exchange it...


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

i understand, but i wouldnt even sell that particular hedgehog food, since most people are stubborn and no matter what you recomend they are going to buy that stuff just because it says hedgehog food


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

and i understand you dont make the rules....just more of a rant than anything....why most people are against pet stores selling hedgies, because the owners of the pet stores dont want to spend the time or money to properly take care of them and sick and unsocialized animals end up getting sold to whomever will plop the cash down first.


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

dorasdaddy said:


> mongoose5971 said:
> 
> 
> > And yes the wheel is a large plastic one but they don't appear to be using it.
> ...


I haven't seen any poop on the wheel, that's why I don't think they're using it but I think it also but be a little too high for them. Can they jump at all? This looks like the one we have








I also haven't noticed any injuries. One had a few scratches on its face when they came in but they have healed.


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

dorasdaddy said:


> and i understand you dont make the rules....just more of a rant than anything....why most people are against pet stores selling hedgies, because the owners of the pet stores dont want to spend the time or money to properly take care of them and sick and unsocialized animals end up getting sold to whomever will plop the cash down first.


I know I want someone to hurry up and buy them already


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

dorasdaddy said:


> i understand, but i wouldnt even sell that particular hedgehog food, since most people are stubborn and no matter what you recomend they are going to buy that stuff just because it says hedgehog food


I saw that particular brand on another thread mentioned as a good food...what is bad about it?


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

dorasdaddy said:


> i wouldnt rely on the 8 in 1 as a staple food, more of a treat if anything.....i currently feed mine castor and pollux natural ultrmix indoor and mix in grape nuts for more fiber. and are you using a water bottle or dish? most of the books about hedgies are very outdated from what i hear and some of them even have practices in them that have been found to be fatal to african pygmy hedgehogs.


And we are using a bowl.


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

mongoose5971 said:


> [ Can they jump at all?


they are excellent climbers...we got dora when she was 8 weeks old and she has been using that exact same wheel since day one with no problems....you could always try tilting it a little, this will also help make it easier to clean daily when they start to run on it regularly


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

mongoose5971 said:


> dorasdaddy said:
> 
> 
> > i understand, but i wouldnt even sell that particular hedgehog food, since most people are stubborn and no matter what you recomend they are going to buy that stuff just because it says hedgehog food
> ...


the thread said it was ok as far as hedgehog food goes, but still wasnt recommended to be the only thing fed


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

Ok so can we supplement with insects, or what else?


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

mealworms, waxsworms, and crickets are best...and mainly as a treat...im slorry you are getting frustrated....and i looked at the ingridients for the 8-1 corn is the first ingridient....its protein and fat content are good, but it is made with junk ingridients....im sorry, im just trying to answer your questions...i was so excited to see that a pet shop was actually trying to find out how to care for the little guys, but they already seem to have become to much trouble for you as evidenced byt the "just someone hurry up and buy them" comment.


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

No I appreciate your help but yes I am frustrated. You have to understand I've been working there almost three years, recently promoted to manager under the new owner and now all of a sudden they dump mammals on us, something we don't agree with selling out of a shop in the first place. We don't just sell to anyone, I actually used to get yelled at by the old manager by "presenting my personal views and scaring away customers." I just really hope someone will buy them because honestly they don't seem too difficult to care for, as long as you know what you're doing but they don't belong in a pet shop. A big concern is if one does get sick or injured just because we didn't know what we were doing. It's just a really frustrating situation. Thank you for all your help though, I'm going to try and see if I can return the cat food and get the brand you suggested. I get my dog's food from a natural pet food store so I'll bet they have it there. I did soooo much research trying to find a good food for my dog and it was a big headache, now I'm having to do it all over again with money that isn't mine for animals I didn't ask for that might not even end up in good homes.  
One thing I'm really praying is that they are all females. If not, I don't know where else we can put them if they need to be separated.

Anyway, thanks for all your help I'm going to bed now it's almost 2 AM lol. I'll be back on tomorrow night after work to do some more research and give you an update. Thanks again!


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## dorasdaddy (Dec 23, 2008)

if one is a male it may already be too late....they can mate in just a few seconds


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## drowsydreamer (Aug 28, 2008)

Well, by the sounds of your situation, you've come to the right place. If you take time to scroll through the forums, there are answers to most of your questions, and we have some great and experienced breeders among us too (Nancy, Pixie... etc) who really know what they're talking about. Just look around and don't be afraid to ask! 

Poor little hedgies, I hope you can figure out a way to care for them. Good Luck!


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## Zalea (Sep 12, 2008)

Good for you, mongoose, for coming on the forum and trying to learn as much as you can. 



> The first issue is sexing them. From what I've read, I'm looking for a "belly button" on a male?


Females have a "button" as well, but it's close to the tail. So males have them in the middle of their tummies, and females have them further down.
Pixie has a good example picture on this part of her website. http://pixiesexotichedgies.webs.com/faq.htm



> The hedgehog food we got from our supplier (after the hedgehogs arrived, which is why I went and got them cat food) is 8-in1 which I noticed was on the "good list" of hedgehog foods.


Most hedgehog foods were made for European hedgehogs and aren't nutritionally suitable for African Pymgy hedgies. 8in1 is an "okay" food, but it needs to be combined with a good quality cat kibble to give the best nutrition. I would rather just use cat kibble instead, but some people like to mix it into the food.
This thread has a list of suitable foods that are all good for hedgie diet. http://hedgehogcentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15
If possible, try to get one of those.



> And which insects should we be feeding them, how many and how often?


When it comes to insects, I wouldn't recommend superworms to anyone that buys. Mealworms (3-4 daily per hedgie -- small ones, not the giant ones) are usually a hit with hedgies, and are safe. Crickets usually go well, too (1-2, if didn't give mealworms that day). Canned insects usually work fine if buyers don't want the live ones, because they smell so the hedgie is interested but not scared by movement. And warn people to be careful with freeze dried because too many have been reported to cause intestinal problems.



> Ok so can we supplement with insects, or what else?


You probably won't want to do this in the store, but hedgie diets should be supplemented with fruits and veggies in addition to the insects.

I would suggest giving new buyers a little card with this website on it. Sometimes new owners aren't quite sure what they're getting into, and it would look good for your store if you were as helpful as possible.


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

Ok so I'm 99.9% sure we have one female and two males :shock: 
I'm going to see what I can do to get them separated, mostly just ask the owner if she can bring the males to the other stores, because we really don't have any other place to put them. One thing my coworker suggested was maybe we could keep them together during the day while they're asleep since they don't seem to bother each other and then set them up in large boxes or tupperware containers at night and rotate night to night who gets the wheel. Do you guys think this could work?

As far as the female being pregnant, what should I look for? From what I've read it seems that she is probably already pregnant, as we've had them about a week now and who knows how long they had been together before they got to us.

I called Petsmart today and they said I could return the food I had originally bought, so that's good news. Hopefully I'll get a chance tomorrow to get that switched out.


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## Zalea (Sep 12, 2008)

mongoose5971 said:


> Ok so I'm 99.9% sure we have one female and two males :shock:
> I'm going to see what I can do to get them separated, mostly just ask the owner if she can bring the males to the other stores, because we really don't have any other place to put them. One thing my coworker suggested was maybe we could keep them together during the day while they're asleep since they don't seem to bother each other and then set them up in large boxes or tupperware containers at night and rotate night to night who gets the wheel. Do you guys think this could work?


Is there any way you could set up a special area? Like using two of the cages from the store, then putting them on a table or something in a special display? Or could you even buy big tupperware containers and set them up for each hedgie--ventilation holes, etc--and then set those up on a table or something? Hedgies get stressed very easily, and moving back and forth from cage to cage could be very stressful on them which can make them sick.



> As far as the female being pregnant, what should I look for?


It's almost impossible to tell. Some will gain weight quickly, some won't gain weight at all. A vet can do x-rays but that's usually inconclusive. People have actually had vets say that their hedgie wasn't pregnant, and then the hedgie had babies 2 days later. It's a waiting game--if she hasn't had babies in 55 days then she wasn't pregnant, but until then you probably won't be able to tell.


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## jabment (Nov 14, 2008)

Hey I was just wondering where your store is. If it's near me, I'd be happy to come in and check them out and see how I can help from there. Be it to possibly buy one or just donate some food and supplies to you guys. I know it's a long shot you'll be located within driving distance to me but maybe someone else on the board would be willing to donate some old fleece or something? Just a thought since you seem to be a responsible pet store manager. I hope me saying this doesn't make anyone mad, I know how people on here feel about enabling pet stores to buy more hedgies but I just figured that if you're willing to ask questions and do your research and try to actually help these guys, I'm willing to lend a hand if I can.


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## mongoose5971 (Jan 25, 2009)

Well I sold the female today! I sold her to a girl that had been in a few times and had done her research. I explained about her possibly being pregnant, and told her about this forum and everything I had learned so far, and she seemed like she had done her homework. I'll let her know the 55 days part the next time I see her if she hasn't already found out.

I switched the bedding today to a softer, non dusty aspen and it seems to be much better, haven't heard any more sniffling.

And to answer jabment's question, we are located in Gainesville, FL.


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