# Too Early?



## JulieAnne

I usually take Prim to class with me, or at least I did when my first class was at noon. Now my first class is at 8am which means I leave at 7:15am. I am just wondering if it would be too early to get her out and take her with me? She always sleeps through my whole school day and I get home at 12:30pm. I would really love to take her, all the students and faculty ask about her lol. 

What do y'all think? Am I being too cautious or would you not take your baby out that early in the morning?


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## Dee

Both of mine are used to being woken at that time cause it's the time I'm getting read for College. Pindsvin never seemed to mind being brought anywhere at that time, he liked to sleep in his bag during the day. As long as he was in his bag he didn't care where he was ^.^ You'll know if she doesn't like it though, so I don't see how it could hurt


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## JulieAnne

Thanks for the quick reply! I suppose I already knew that I just need some reassurance lol. Sometimes I get insecure about making decisions for her and need a second voice that understands. She definitely doesn't have issues sleeping on the go. I took her to the mall in my purse once... I looked in at one point and she was sound asleep! Even with all that noise! I was shocked lol. 

Any other opinions?


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## Dee

I had to stop taking Pindsvin places because he had a habit of wanting to know who I was talking to. Which was horrid when he stuck his face out of my pocket and scared an elderly lady half to death on the bus. We got kicked off and had to walk the rest of the way home. Oops. :lol:


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## JulieAnne

Oh my! That's hilarious. I love taking her with me and miss it so much.


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## Immortalia

Personally, I wouldn't. 

How would you like it if you'd been working all day, head to bed at 12am, get woken up at 2am, blindfolded and put into a car and bounced around. You can recognize the smell of your own car, but you have no idea what's going on. 

I would worry about possible health issues that may arise from stress. We don't truly know the clear signs of stress in hedgies other than loose poops. There could be more subtle signs we might be missing. 

I find that in the summer, when I allow my boy some outdoor exploring time, he isn't as active at night. He'd wake up when the lights go off, then go back to bed until around 3am. He definitely is less active and eats less.


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## JulieAnne

Really? When I was taking her she still stuck to her schedule. She wakes up at about 9pm eats/wheels for an hour or so then sleeps until about 2am then wheels until about 630 or so. I stay up really late and never noticed a change. Maybe some are more sensitive to it than others?


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## Immortalia

Either way, I'd just worry about her not able to get her nice deep rem sleep. She may sleep in your bag all day, but it may not be the deep sleep she'd need to stay healthy. 

Just something to think about. 

A very good point was made on another post. Day trips are not for hedgehog fun, but for human fun and entertainment. Just depends on how much you wish to risk for your own enjoyment. A day here or there is ok, but not all the time and everyday.


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## JulieAnne

Well I'm not in class every day. I usually at least limit it to a couple of times a week when I take her out. I might try it tomorrow just to see her reaction. Obviously I would never want to hurt my babies health and I absolutely understand what you're saying. I know there is a lot of controversy over if you should take them out or not but if she doesn't seem affected by it.... . I hope that's fair.


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## shaelikestaquitos

I honestly don't see the point in disturbing their sleep so that *I* can spend more time with them. My hog comes out just before it's time for him to wake up... So around 7 or 8. I also wouldn't want to worry about him possibly pooping or peeing on me in the middle of class, or him trying to escape lol.

I don't mean to be mean, OP, but you really don't need to take your hedgehog EVERYWHERE with you... If anything, especially in the colder months, it might just be safer to leave him/her be at home... When you wake your hedgehog up and you're walking around, going to places, etc. you are disturbing their sleep. *I* wouldn't want to be woken up every couple of hours periodically when I'm trying to sleep, so I try to be respectful of my own hedgehog's


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## JulieAnne

You aren't being mean. As I said before, everyone has their own opinions on this.


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## JulieAnne

Those of you that DO take your hedgies out... Do you avoid taking them out in the morning? Whaare you're "rules" for when you take them out?


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## moxieberry

Immortalia said:


> A very good point was made on another post. Day trips are not for hedgehog fun, but for human fun and entertainment. Just depends on how much you wish to risk for your own enjoyment.


Have to disagree with this. Outings with hedgehogs are great for socialization. Exposing them to different environments, sounds, smells, and getting them used to being taken out with different people around - it all benefits the hedgehog. That doesn't mean it's necessary for socialization, but I've seen it do a lot of good, especially for hedgehogs that are naturally more grumpy, or go through a rough quilling. The additional kinds of stimuli, which are different than the normal "household" sounds/smells/etc, are definitely worth it. Socializing a hedgehog is like socializing a dog in a lot of ways - the more different experiences they're exposed to, especially when they're younger, the less reactive and defensive they are later on because fewer things are "new" and therefore likely to get a defensive reaction out of reflex.

That being said, I don't think an early trip here or there is terrible, but I wouldn't do it too often. Maybe once a week or so. We do take our hedgehogs out with us every day (on rotation) but we're rarely going anywhere before 12-2pm. Usually trips with hedgehogs are in the afternoon or evening. If we do go out in the morning, I usually don't bother to take one along, unless it's a vet appointment for them specifically.

However, one of our studs, Xeno, is owned by Nick's sister, who takes him with her to her classes more or less daily. Not sure of the schedule, but I'm pretty sure she has some early-ish classes, and he's been used to this routine since he was 6-8 weeks old with no apparent health issues (he's 11 months old now). He also is very very active, and runs a ton on his wheel every night, regardless of how long he was out during the day. So as far as sensitivity to that, I do think it depends on the individual. If you find that your hedgehog is less active because of being on an outing the day before, then use your best judgment based on that observation.

Like I said before, ours are on rotation, so it's not the same hedgehog every day. We do make more frequent trips with the younger ones, for the sake of socialization, and back when we had just a small handful, they were all basically being taken out daily. With Archimedes, Zombie, and Anubis, who were in a routine for months, going out on trips 4-5 days per week, I never saw any issues - no apparent effects on health or activity levels. Those weren't morning trips, but they were generally 1-4 hours per day, in the afternoon or early evening, just however long we happened to be out.


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## Immortalia

Could you set your alarm for 2am every day and stay up for 4 hours, then proceed with your daily job for a week and let me know how that goes? 

I'm rather curious on how the human would feel when subjected to the same thing these hedgehogs are subjected to. 

You CAN kill with kindness.


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## moxieberry

I don't think the comparison works very well, considering the hedgehogs are asleep 90% of the time during the trips.

Nor did I suggest 4 hours for a trip - I simply mentioned that the trips mine go on tend to be in that range, with 4 hours being at the high end. Usually it's 1-2, but it depends on where we're going. The longer trips tend to be ones that involve more driving, for instance. I do recommend, and will continue to do so, that short trips (in the range of 20-60 minutes) several times a week are a great method of socialization, in addition to other at-home methods. I've seen its effectiveness starting with my first hedgehog, Archimedes, and in various of our other hedgehogs since then. It's also been our primary method of bringing around the several rehomes/rescues we've taken in, who were under-socialized and under-handled to various degrees, and who made visible improvements in demeanor.

There is a thing as "too early" or "too much", and the specifics of that is going to vary from one hedgehog to another. Our very mellow, relaxed hedgehogs are perfectly fine on long trips - I even took Anubis with us on a 4.5-hour (each way) trip when we were picking up Jinx and Karezza from their breeder this past summer. She has never had a problem with any trip, no matter the length of time, so long as she's able to sleep for the majority of it. Then we have some that are more antsy and who make it clear that they're "done" after 30 minutes or so.

It's not a matter of trips/outings inherently being "bad", it's a matter of using your best judgment for your particular pet. It's just like how some hedgehogs are going to be more grumpy if they're woken up earlier in the day, and do better being woken up closer to their normal "awake" time. For others, the temperament doesn't change regardless of what time they're woken up. Some hedgehogs get constipated after eating 4-5 live mealworms, and some can devour 15-20 without any issues. You learn to know your hedgehog, and what works and doesn't work for them. As long as you're being mindful of that, trips can be a fantastic thing. If you're ignoring your hedgehog's preferences and reactions, that's where you can go wrong - with anything, not just this.


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## Immortalia

The problem is, they are prey animals and they will hardly ever actually go into a deep enough sleep to properly maintain their body in good health without being in the safety of their home. 

So essentially, you are allowing them to nap, but miss out on the important deep sleep. 
So I think it's a perfectly appropriate comparison, because you would be waking during rem sleep and not allowing your body to have rem sleep. 

Many new owners also do not know how to recognize signs and symptoms of stress.


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## shaelikestaquitos

moxieberry, I am totally confused as to why a hedgehog MUST be socialized in all sorts of environmental situations? I don't understand causing this unnecessary stress, especially if someone is planning to have just a pet hedgehog. Yes, socialization is beneficial, but why? Because it makes it easier to handle the animal. So who handles these animals? Vets and their owners, and maybe some other people here and there, but I am willing to bet it is the primary caregiver(s) and the vet mostly. So why would they need to be exposed to the grocery store, or the pet store? There is absolutely no reason. The only foreseeable place I would assume a hedgehog should be accustomed to, would be the vet's office to avoid having to put the animal under. You don't NEED to take the animal out to teach them to be comfortable in these surroundings. Vet offices are generally pretty quiet. You need to get them used to HANDLING. I hardly take Kashi out places other than during the summers when I will take him to the park, but that's only a few times a year. Does he freak out when he is at the vet? No, he does not. He is one of the friendliest hedgehogs that the vet has ever handled. Do I handle him everyday? No, I do not. But I *did* start handling him from a young age, and I *did* handle him everyday when he was younger. The vet has absolutely no problems check his teeth, his legs, his belly, you name it. And no, he is not one of the "lucky" hedgehogs. I find it very hard to believe that lugging an animal around that ISN'T supposed to be in a loud noisy environment, during a time when it ISN'T supposed to be out and about, is somehow "beneficial" to them.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree on you on this completely about this "socialization" aspect. No, I do not see this benefitting any hedgehog. Maybe one of those rare cases when the animal is extremely attached to the owner and loves doing things with them.. but let's be realistic, exactly how many hedgehogs out there are like this?

And yes, it is exactly like ringing the alarm and making yourself wake up every couple of hours. What would a normal hedgehog do during the day? It would sleep. I hardly doubt, being such sensitive creatures, that being woken up like that on a regular basis, or being lugged around in a cage that is bumping up and down, or being in a loud, bright, unfamiliar space, is somehow, on the long run, "good for the hedgehog". On the contrary, I think it would be extremely detrimental to their health.

And tbh I wouldn't even bring my hedgehog to a pet store. There are many possible things that can happen. If you take it to a pet store with animals for sale, you are asking for it to catch something. Furthermore, if there are other animals in the store, such as dogs, and you let your hedgehog out of the cage, there is always a risk that something might happen.

I have to agree with Immortalia on this.


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## Lilysmommy

I've mostly been hanging back and watching all of the topics on this subject. Decided to finally post something about my own thoughts on the matter, though they're pretty close to many of the statements already made. Personally, I think it needs to be EXTRA stressed that it depends a lot on your individual hedgehog - not every hedgehog should have to go through being taken out several times a week just to go someplace because the owner thinks it'd be fun or it's necessary for socialization. Perhaps some don't mind at all, perhaps some get used to it. Perhaps they shouldn't HAVE to get used to it if you see that the first couple of trips make them anxious or disrupt them. 

I know that on the forum we say a lot that it's okay to take your hedgies out for snuggles during the day for a little while, if they seem undisturbed by it. Taking them out of the house in a carrier sounds a lot more disturbing to me than just having them on your lap for a couple hours while they sleep - I know when I took Lily out, she was getting bounced around more in the carrier, the smells/sounds/etc. would keep her awake, and I can't imagine that a lot of hedgehogs are really deep enough sleepers that they can 100% ignore all of that around them and just sleep. If they are just sleeping, how is it then socialization? How is it benefiting them at all? If they're getting socialized via the smells/sounds/sights, then they're not sleeping as they should be at that time. I agree with the statement that these outings are more for human benefit than hedgehog - either they're getting socialized and not sleeping, or they're sleeping and it's doing absolutely nothing for them.

My other concern on this whole trend that's starting to kick up - it's coming off to me a lot like turning hedgehogs into "pocket pets" or "purse pets". They should not be this - it's not something that fits with their sleep schedule, their natures (for many hedgehogs), and it gives risks for both hedgehogs and people, as already stated. There's already a trend of hedgehogs being the new "interesting", "fashionable" or "adorable must-have" pet, and making them sound like purse pets is only going to add to that. 

I do want to specify I'm not against all outings for hedgehogs - but I really think they should be kept to a minimum, they need to be carefully thought out depending on your hedgehog's personality and comforts, and you should definitely consider where you're taking your animal - as far as I know, HHC does not condone breaking laws of any kind, including sneaking animals into stores where they're not allowed, just because they're easy to hide in your purse. I would think this would be a given considering hedgehogs already have a bad reputation currently from the stupid salmonella articles - a hedgehog being caught in any store where animals are not allowed could very easily be blown out of proportion and have extreme consequences past just having the owner kicked out of the store. Yes, I'm aware this is a worst case scenario but...What if someone decides that hedgehogs supposedly causing salmonella infections, then finding a hedgehog in a restaurant is grounds for trying to pass a law to restrict their ownership or make them illegal in a place where they were previously allowed? Again, worst case scenario. But my point is that while you may think it's harmless, you don't know how far it could end up going if the wrong thing happens. Hedgehog owners as a whole, especially the responsible ones, need to do our best to continue the GOOD reputation of our pets, and educate people on them and why we love them - it's very hard to tell someone how awesome a hedgehog is when they just lost their job or their store just got a health code violation because of it.

So there's my long rambly post. To sum it up - use common sense, know your hedgehog, know your local laws, keep in mind that your actions impact more things than just you and your hedgehog, and that you're an example of hedgehog owners as a whole. And again, HHC does not condone breaking the laws of your town, city, state, or country.


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## Dee

As far as I have ever seen, hedgehogs are good at telling you if they are unhappy about something. Before Pindsvin I tried to bring another hedgie places but he didn't like it, and it was mean to do it, so I stopped. His reaction was to huff and spit anytime the carrier was open, because he was frightened.

I think it's a personal thing between an owner and a hedgie, I mean lots of people say it's a bad idea, but surely keeping an animal in the same routine with no external stimulus can't be good either. Like dogs, some thrive on a bit of adventure, and I know Pins actually seems to enjoy meeting new people, he'll come out and give them a sniff and explore them before heading back into his carrier for a sleep. His quills are flat when he's asleep at home and when out and about, surely that means a calm hedgie?
I've had him out and about since 8 weeks old, and he's a perfectly healthy little hog ^.^

I like to think it's what ever you have gotten them used toat an early age, if you tried it with a 2 year old, it would probably be incredible stressful, but start them young enough and it's easier on them.


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## shaelikestaquitos

Dee, there are ways of providing stimulation without taking them to places where they may possibly be legally not allowed, etc. I personally would not call it "stimulation" when I am taking a hedgehog during the time it sleeps to take it places it will never have to go and getting them "used" to it. I absolutely do agree that they need to be stimulated... but I do other things to do that. I let my friends handle my Kashi, I let mine "hunt" mealworms in a bowl that I have that has pebbles in it. I give him tons of toys, etc. You know what I mean? Hedgehogs and dogs are not alike. Dogs thrive off human attention. Most hedgehogs, on the other hand, unless habituated with people from the beginning, don't care for it. Dogs are allowed in many places, and are supposed to go out on walks, etc. so it's necessary that they be habituated in many different situations.

Showing that they're unhappy is not the same as being stressed. Yes, if the hedgehog is VERY stressed out, it will show that it is stressed (by raising its quills, hissing, etc.), but other times they won't. Kashi looks like he's having a GREAT time when I take him out on "adventures" (mostly to the vet), but the only reason why I can tell that he is stressed out is that he does not accept food from me when we are out, and that he will sometimes even poop green poops after the trip.

Yes, there definitely are hedgehogs out there that deal with unfamiliar situations better, but I think it is very DANGEROUS to encourage people to take their pets out on outings on a daily/regular basis like this.

As repeated, there are several facts that have been repeated that really adhere to this "point of view":
1) Hedgehogs are nocturnal. That means that they are most active at night. When you take them with you during the day, you are disturbing its natural sleeping pattern.
2) Hedgehogs are prey animals, and therefore stress easily.
3) Hedgehogs are animals, therefore not allowed in certain places such as grocery stores, big box stores, etc.
4) There is no reason to put your hedgehog through unnecessary stress of being exposed to different environmental situations. The only place your hedgehog really needs to be comfortable in is at the vet, and at your home. You just need to make sure they are used to being handled for these things.
5) You cannot control various environmental factors when you take your hedgehog out. My biggest concern here is regarding places where there are other animals, or where it's high traffic. You could end up possibly putting your hog in danger, and you expose your hedgehog to many other germs (well this would really only be a concern for me if you went to a pet store).

So there you have it. Unfortunately this is not the answer that many of you want to hear, but in the end there is no "Hedgehog Police" to tell you what you can/cannot do. Hopefully these points have made a difference in how you think about your hogs and whether or not they should be considered "pocket pets".


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## JulieAnne

Can we stop beating the dead horse now? Lol

If not... Is there a way to "unsubscribe" to posts so I'll stop getting emails about them?


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## Lilysmommy

I'm not sure...I don't think I've ever subscribed to posts, so I'm not sure if you can change it or where. 

In any case, I agree...the subject's been pretty well beaten to death around here (and other places) the past few days and everyone's had a chance to post their opinion. I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread and may lock any others if they pop up and become an issue again. I think everyone can agree that everyone has their own opinions on how often is healthy for their hedgehog, and it's true that all hedgehogs are different. As I said before - be safe, be sensible, and be careful to watch your hedgehog's cues and behavior for how they feel about going on outings.


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