# What's in our pet food?



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359

I really thought I had this food issue figured out, and then I ran across at least two references to this article in old threads here and now I'm questioning every decision I've made about what I feed my sweet baby LuLu.

Assuming I could convince Her Royal Pickiness to switch foods (which is a big assumption), what is the latest information on natural or raw diets? Who is doing it, how is it working out, is it doing anything to prolong the lives of hedgehogs?

I had found a lot of good and relevant information on old threads, but I know that bringing up information in old threads is frowned upon, so I'm hoping to start a new discussion on food choices, as if the topic is not confusing enough. My brain hurts.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

That's a good article, and it's pretty spot on for the issues with dry kibble. This site is another good one for explaining which ingredients are bad & why - http://www.dogfoodproject.com/ It also explains how to read labels & such. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ This site rates foods on their quality based on the ingredients, etc. (Just posting these as other references for other people who may check this thread out & want more information on kibble & ingredients.)

Unfortunately, there's very little information on raw & natural diets with hedgehogs, as far as I know. There's not many people in the US, UK, and Canada trying raw or natural diets because kibble is so prevalent here & there's a lot of fear-mongering regarding raw diets from many of the big names (vets, kibble companies, etc.) for numerous reasons. From something a old member said at one point, I think it's much more common for a more natural/raw diet to be fed in some European countries. Unfortunately, we don't have many members from those countries on our forums, so I don't know much about what they do for feeding & balancing the diet.

From the people I know who have been feeding raw or homemade diets, no one's been feeding the diet long enough to know how it impacts the long-term health or longevity of their hedgehogs. I do know one person had been feeding for around a year at this last update & hedgie was still doing great with no health issues. If you want to check out the threads from people on here who have started doing homemade diets, there's a list of threads at the bottom of my sticky here - http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/23066-raw-home-cooked-diets.html It's been a bit since any have been updated, I think, but if you're interested, you can try PMing the OPs of the threads and see if they're willing to give you an update and possibly share any information they may have on how they put together their diet and such.

What we do know regarding raw & more natural diets is that they definitely seem beneficial to many other animals - dogs, cats, ferrets, parrots, etc. Some animals pretty much require a more natural diet in order to be healthy, such as sugar gliders. We know hedgehogs do fine on kibble, but a few people (it seems to be mostly people who have experience with raw feeding other pets, such as cats or ferrets) are taking the leap to see how hedgehogs do with a raw/natural diet. So far, so good, from what I've seen.

I know I'm planning to try out a more natural, homemade diet with future hedgies. This is one of my favorite topics to discuss as I'm really interested in animal nutrition. I haven't done a ton of hands-on research just yet (since it just makes me whinier about not being able to get another hedgie yet :lol, but I save links whenever I come across them. IMO, as far as looking for values to aim for to make sure the diet is properly balanced & includes everything needed, I plan on following the general needs of dogs, since they're opportunistic carnivores, which is closer to a hedgie's natural diet than a cat or ferret (both obligate carnivores that would eat only meat). You could probably mimic the values of either dog foods or cat foods though, since hedgies do well on both. The main concerns are making sure that all of the necessary vitamins and minerals are available through the diet. I know at least a couple of the people who are currently doing raw/natural diets have based their menu around a commercial raw food, since they're already balanced. That way they know all the required vitamins & minerals are included at least with that, then they can supplement with other foods for a varied diet. I may very well start with that method rather than jumping into a completely homemade diet. I haven't completely decided yet!

Go slowly and do lots of research. I don't have a ton of links available right now (I think most of my animal links are on my laptop that's got a broken keyboard, I need to get on that soon & see if I can use a wireless keyboard to retrieve my old bookmarks), but this website - https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/ - has links to quite a lot of information & such down in the bottom right corner. That may give you somewhere else to start looking!

Feel free to ask questions on here too. I know at least one other person on here is also researching raw/natural diets right now, so perhaps everyone can share information & this will make another good thread for me to add to the reference list on the sticky.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Good information, Kelsey, and thank you for taking the time to reply. I do plan to continue my research on this, as well as some information that I recently stumbled across that would suggest a totally high quality cat food diet may be too rich for our hedgies and potentially could shorten their lives. That is the issue that disturbs me most.....the fact that APH lifespan is considered 3-5 years. I have to wonder how big a factor diet plays in longevity, especially after hearing of a hedgie who died at the age of 9 having been fed Meow Mix, and another who died at the age of 6, having been fed "whatever the cats ate" or "whatever was on sale". Granted, this is anecdotal information and possibly not accurate, but it would be interesting to talk with owners of hedgehogs over the age of 5 to see if there are any consistencies. I think another thread might be in order.....


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I've thought the same when I see those mentions! I know in the wild, really more of their protein probably comes from invertebrates and insects. If I remember right, the main meat that they would get would come from eating any rodent pinkies or bird nestlings that they might stumble upon, as well as carrion. I wonder if that has anything to do with the possible diet issues as far as high quality foods possibly being too rich. The only thing I've seen on here about too-rich diets is that Wellness is thought to be too rich due to the loose poop it gives some hedgehogs. 

I just wish we had more solid evidence on what diet would be best for these guys. It'd be nice to have more resources available for a greater variety of feeder insects & invertebrates as well...it's pretty hard to find things like snails, slugs, and insects other than mealworms, crickets, & roaches. Though I know there's several others you can order online and such, at least.

One thing on the longevity issue though - cancer seems to be the thing that kills hedgehogs by far the most. I wonder how much that could be attributed to diet, or if there's other factors that play a bigger part in it? I haven't done much research into the possible/probable causes of cancer, if there even is anything known on that for hedgehogs specifically.


----------



## sheap (Mar 12, 2012)

Whoo! Exactly the kind of thread I was looking for!

I had these exact problems finding a good kibble for Dmitri and Nina. I was so worried that the food I chose wasn't good enough. I mean, I wouldn't eat them, so why should I make my little darlings eat them?

Plus every time I found a food that was "perfect" in regards to levels and ingredients and (gasp!) price...Dmitri hated it. :/

So I started researching raw diets. And so far I have loved what I found. The hardest part for me is figuring out how to balance the diet so they aren't missing any nutrients that are important. Now, of course, no one knows what exactly they need. Especially since they are basically the African version of raccoons (they eat garbage, and literally anything they can scavenge) no one really knows what they NEED.

My research has turned up that raw will help with both underweight and overweight hedgies . And it helps lower the incidence of cancer (doesn't eliminate it, as nothing can) and promotes healthy teeth and digestive tracts. Since these are the big three for hedgies (with the addition of reproductive health in females) I figured I would go for.

Right now I am only beginning offering raw food, and it is a commercial blend (Primal Pronto) plus a raw chicken neck vertebrae once a week. Plus of course raw veggies and insects every night along with Blue Wilderness Dog kibble (the best option I have found). The only reason I haven't switched fully is I am going on vacation in July and since I'm not 100% on my menu yet, I don't want to risk a sitter making a mistake. You really can't beat kibble for convenience!

Plus Nina is at a midwife's house as she just gave birth. :/

Anyways, I thought I would weigh in to let you know that there are some of us out there who are doing it. I think Draenog is doing a semi-raw diet as well so hopefully be along to weigh in too.

I'll be starting a thread of my own about our journey through the transition to a fully raw diet very soon.  I just have to finish all my research and find a good supplier (and of course get a bit of respite from work!)


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/articles.php?p=360&more=1

I found this sample diet further down in the pet food article, and decided to give it a try while I continue my research. I need to know if LuLu will even eat something like this....she's very picky. I plan to introduce it for several weeks to see if she will even try it. I believe I will go with the dog diet, but not entirely sure about which multivitamin supplements to add. She only weighs 240 grams. Any recommendations anyone? Of course I will supplement with other things as well...mealworms, wax worms, crickets, organic chicken livers. She does like yogurt, and eats a quarter teaspoon of that, mixed with equal amount of pumpkin, every night. Would this count as her probiotic?


----------



## sheap (Mar 12, 2012)

Honestly, from what I've researched, this isn't a good diet. I especially don't like that they give you vegetarian options. Dogs (and hedgies) are by no stretch of the imagination vegetarians...why would they even give that as a choice? I also don't like the inclusion of starches in the diets, that's just a fancy name for filler. Dogs don't need starches...most dogs who eat raw are actually allergic to starches...so again, why is this an option?

Supplements shouldn't be needed since this is a "lets try and see" sort of diet. If you want to go raw, the meat should have bones (they call it whole- or full-grind) and it's usually only available at pet specific butcher shops, or from a supplier. Some pet stores have logs of the full-grind meat available in the freezer, but they are expensive! But this cuts out the need for calcium and phosphorus supplements.

HOWEVER if you want to go with a cooked diet, this might work. Though, personally, I think it's a bit fussy.

If you want to see if she will eat meat, try giving her a few small pieces of just plain meat in a separate bowl tonight. She will probably snarf it down! She may not eat it in front of you though (Dmitri doesn't eat his chicken in front of me.  ) and I would start with cooked rather than raw. Lunch meat is the easiest option but not the healthiest. I started Dmitri on rotisserie chicken from the grocery store. I made sure to get a piece that was from the inside so it didn't have all those seasonings on it, but he loved it. You could also use a little bit of whatever you are eating tonight, as long as it's just a bit and doesn't have anything toxic on it, it should be fine. 

Edited to add: yogurt sounds great! I know a lot of hedgies love it. Dmitri doesn't so I don't even bother anymore.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm not a fan of the vegetarian/vegan options either, but there are some dogs that require either very low fat meat or vegetarian food for specific health issues. Also keep in mind that dogs and hedgehogs differ in that dogs are more carnivorous than hedgehogs - hedgehogs likely eat far more insects and vegetable matter than actual meat, definitely more than a natural dog/wolf diet.

My concern with the sample diet is the "option" of offering liver instead of muscle meat once a week. To my knowledge, organ meat isn't exactly optional. I'm sure the vitamin/mineral supplement would help with that, but organs are an essential part of a complete balanced raw diet since they include lots of necessary vitamins. My friend (who raw feeds her ferret) said her information on a whole prey diet is that it's 75% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% organ, and 5% roughage. I would probably alter those percentages a bit for hedgehogs (since they wouldn't be an obligate carnivore like cats and ferrets), but I would still include organ meat at least once a week and not as an option.

I linked this on another thread, but will here too, for CoffeeKat. https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/ is a site where you can order raw meat & full grinds for pet diets, so that may be something you can check into if you're interested.

For vitamin supplements, personally I'd go with a dog multivitamin, available at petstores, and scale it down properly to your hedgehog's weight, since their vitamin/mineral needs seem to match up pretty well with dog & cat needs, since they do fine on a dry kibble balanced for dogs/cats.

The sample diet overall doesn't look too bad. Personally I'd omit the starches as well & replace them with veggies and insects. But it's up to you & what you want to try. It won't hurt to do some experimenting and see what you can get her to try and what she likes!


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Thanks for the link! Initially I plan to start with ground organic free-range turkey or chicken from the health food store, and organic chicken livers and gizzards, so I can see if LuLu will try something new before I commit to ordering from mypetcarnivore. I really would like to get her onto a food without antibiotics or growth hormones because she's so tiny, and something tells me (and I could be wrong) that injesting these things contributes to their predisposition to reproductive tract cancers.

I have a lot to learn about animal nutrition and appreciate every piece of information I can find. I also appreciate the advancement of various theories, although in the end I tend to try them on to see if they "fit" me or not. Concerning the addition of starches to a hedgehog diet, I personally could not see how adding fiber in the form of (my personal choice, cooked steelcut oats) could be detrimental if the other nutrients are there. Again, I could be very wrong about this but my instincts tell me otherwise.

I too was surprised to see vegetarian options for dogs and cats, but it was my impression that they were not advocating this, but rather providing usable information for people who would be likely to insist that their animals not eat meat anyway for ethical or philosophical reasons.

I find this topic to be fascinating and there is a lot to be learned from you all


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Sheap, tell me more about offering your hedgies raw chicken neck vertebrae. I had not thought of this option for feeding raw bones...only thought of feeding pinky mice and for whatever reason I just can't do that. Do they eat the bones, or merely gnaw on them? How big a piece do you offer? No problems with choking?

It took a few days, but LuLu finally decided to try her raw ground chicken and loves it. I had to bury her wax worms in it to get her attention, but now she knows what to do with it. 

I'm still researching raw/natural/holistic diets, and LuLu still has round-the-clock access to her kibble but she has stopped eating it. What I do every night before I go to bed at midnight or so, is set out LuLu's "buffet" and allow her to pick what she wants to eat. The buffet includes 2 tsp raw ground chicken, 1 tsp chopped fresh vegetables, Half tsp each pumpkin, sweet potato (steamed and mashed) and yogurt, 1 tsp. canned cat food (organic with a strange name, I and Love And You, but it also contains vegetables) and 1 tsp cooked steel cut oatmeal.

She doesn't get worms at night, she gets them during the day when we bring her out to play in her play pen mid day, and in the evening when she comes out to cuddle. She gets 3 meal worms for the chitin, and 9 wax worms for the fat, about half of those dipped in olive oil (great skin).

Until I really figure out what I'm doing here, I figure she has access to all the nutrients she needs, except maybe calcium, which is why I ask about the chicken neck vertebrae. Or would bone meal, or crushed egg shells be better? Calcium is my primary concern now, unless I'm missing something else?

I mentioned that she stopped eating her kibble, but I still replace it with fresh every morning. She eats all her chicken and canned cat food, occasionally nibbles at her vegetables, eats all her yogurt, maybe half the pumpkin and sweet potato, and sometimes takes a tiny nibble from the oatmeal.

She's pooping less, and seems to be calmer. Where she used to run 10 or 11 miles a night now she runs about 6. I don't know what this means, exactly. Less energy, or less "nervous energy"? What is the prevailing thought on why "runners" run?

Anyway, that's where we are right now. Open to suggestions as I continue my research.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

As far as the chicken neck bones, they'd probably be a better option for calcium than pinkies. I've seen mixed opinions on it, but pinkies probably don't have much calcium considering their bones are still very small & not very formed. I've seen at least one other person on here mention including chicken neck bones in their hedgie's diet, if you do a search, I'm sure you'll find which thread! Their hedgie had no issues with it.

Sounds like she's doing great at branching out to other foods! Good job, Lulu! Personally I think I'd like the neck vertebrae for calcium because it has the added benefit of helping clean her teeth. The other two things you listed would probably work as well though, but whatever you choose, make sure you calculate how much calcium to add to her diet - that can be overdosed as well & cause issues. And keep in mind that the canned food has calcium (and other vitamins) in it, and the yogurt has calcium as well. Some veggies are high in calcium too.

Running less is interesting...I'm not sure I have any ideas on possible causes, but since I'm headed out, I'll think while I'm gone & let you know later if I think of anything. I'm going to a natural pet supplies store, where the employees are big on raw feeding & hopefully should be pretty knowledgeable, so if I think of it, I'll ask & see if they have any ideas or if there's been anything like that experienced with dogs & cats being switched over!


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

I could be wrong, but I tend to think that given choices, animals will regulate their diets to fill in the nutrients they need. I did find the thread on chicken vertebrae and plan to go that route, as well as sprinkling a little crushed eggshell on the raw chicken. Tonight LuLu's "buffet" will include some scrambled egg as well. She doesn't ever "clean her plate" but I feel comfortable with the choices she has and the fact that she has given up her kibble. 

There is so much to learn about and consider in making changes like this, and it's scary....but exciting at the same time.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

In the wild, I know they would. In captivity, they don't always have enough choices to properly regulate their own diet, or they may not have the instinct to do so given how they're raised with people. Personally, I'd be leery of relying on that rather than making sure the given diet covers everything appropriately. I'm glad you're both doing well with her diet switch though!  It's definitely not an easy task at all! I'm in the middle of trying to figure out if I can afford my chosen diet for my dog, if not, I may have to choose one of the other brands I was looking at at the store today. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I'll be able to afford one of the raw diets over just another kibble diet!

Good luck with your continued work on Lulu's diet! I'm definitely interested in hearing more as you add more things. I'll get this thread added to the Raw/Homemade sticky, if you don't mind.


----------



## Andrya (Jun 23, 2014)

Hi everyone, l'm a newbie here and l'm very happy to have found this site, and this thread.
l'm still at the research and habitat set-up stage - no hedgie yet. But l do have 3 cats and l'm a raw feeder so this thread is very helpful.
My cats get homemade ground raw, as well as some freeze-dried. Does anyone know if rehydrated freeze dried raw would be good for hedgies? The ones l give my cats are too high in protein and fat, but l found this for dogs:

Calorie Content
3,690 kcal/kg
209 kcal/cup

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min): 44.0%
Crude Fat (min): 14.0%
Crude Fiber (max): 15.0%
Moisture (max): 6.0%

Rabbit (Including Ground Rabbit Bone)
Pork Liver Pork Heart Pumpkinseeds Rabbit Liver Rabbit Lung Rabbit Kidney Carrots Butternut Squash Apples Ground Flaxseed Minerals ( Zinc ProteinateIron Proteinate Copper Proteinate Manganese Proteinate Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide Sodium Selenite), 
Montmorillonite Clay Salt Dried Kelp Potassium Chloride Broccoli Choline Chloride
Vitamins ( Vitamin A Vitamin D3 Vitamin E Niacin d-Calcium Pantothenate L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate Thiamine Mononitrate Pyridoxine Hydrochloride Riboflavin Folic Acid Biotin Vitamin B12), Taurine Mixed Tocopherols Apple Cider Vinegar Salmon Oil Rosemary Extract Blueberries Dried Chicory Root

ls there anything on the list that is unsafe or not good for hedgehogs?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

It looks pretty good to me! I'm so glad that you've found the forum and that this thread has helped you.  If you're interested, there's several more threads listed in this sticky - http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/23066-raw-home-cooked-diets.html

I would guess rehydrated freeze dried raw would be fine. I don't have much experience with it though, so I'm not sure if it's any more at risk for bacteria growth, etc. when left in a warm cage. Though most people who have started feeding raw have found that their hedgies generally eat the raw meat pretty quickly, so I suppose it's pretty unlikely that it'd be sitting for long if hedgie's a fan. :lol:

I hope the rest of your research goes well and the forum helps you with any other issues you have! Feel free to ask questions if you can't find what you're looking for in stickies or via the search function. I hope you'll keep us updated as well, once you have your hedgie and see how they do with a raw diet!


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/produ...ain-Free-Instinct-Frozen-Raw-Food/131069.aspx

Still researching raw diets, and I'm really leaning toward Nature's Variety Instinct chicken formula raw frozen medallions. Protein figures out to just over 40%, fat nearly 19%. Normally with my girl I would not give a second thought to the fat content, since she has always been hard to keep weight on, but since she discovered raw food a week or so ago she's been eating more and exercising less. I don't quite know what to make of it. Prior to discovering raw food, she was eating less than a tablespoon of kibble a day, a dozen mealworms and wax worms, and running about 10 miles a night, as well as being very active in her play pen for an hour every day. I might mention that her kibble was higher fat baby mix, good quality, and now she won't touch it (which is good....that's the point)

Her energy level in the playpen is the same, her behavior during cuddle time in the evening has not changed, but her wheeling has dropped by half. Now she runs 4-5 miles per night (same mph, just less time on the wheel and more time spent eating and sleeping). In the past week her weight has gone from 240 grams to 260 grams. She is 5 months old. I'm thrilled with the weight gain, because her weight has concerned me from the beginning, but now I wonder about the drop in running time.

The only other thing that has changed is her bed. She used to be a liner diver under her igloo, and I always found her splatted under a pile of fleece strips and two layers of fleece in her igloo. I was under the impression that she was seeking darkness more than warmth, so offered her a curved piece of pvc with a "skirt" of fleece at one end, and she stopped using her igloo. She seems to love her new bed, and no more liner diving.

So...how does the Nature's Variety look? I think I would offer a raw chicken neck vertebrae at least once a week for her teeth, but would cutting back on wax worms compensate for the higher fat content in the food? Obesity is certainly not an issue now, but if she continues to gain at this rate it might be...or she might level off when she's fully grown.

Ahhh...for such a tiny creature they are awfully complex, aren't they?


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

So we switched to Nature's Variety Instinct frozen raw chicken bites a week ago, and I'm pleased with the nutritional balance....I think. The packaging claims that 95% is chicken, turkey, organ meat and bones, 5% is vegetables and fruits, no grains, and it claims to provide complete balanced nutrition. Sounds good, right? Then I took a closer look at the ingredient list: first ingredient "chicken (including ground chicken bone)", followed by turkey heart, turkey liver, with ground turkey bone the fourth ingredient. That's potentially a lot of bones, so I contacted the company for a further breakdown in the 95% claim, trying to find out exactly what percentage is meat, bones and organs. Email question is thus far unanswered, FaceBook question is thus far unanswered, phone call resulted in "I'll have to get back to you with that information".

Until I know for sure, I feel that I need to supplement the Instinct with what LuLu was eating when we began the raw diet journey 10 days ago: organic ground raw chicken from Whole Foods, so no bone in that. She loves both of them, but I need some advice on how much of each to feed her. Right now I'm feeding her slightly more than 6% of her body weight, split 50-50 between the two raw foods, supplemented with 3 meal worms and three wax worms daily, quarter teaspoon each yogurt and pumpkin, quarter teaspoon olive oil, all of which she gobbles down and nearly licks her bowl. I also leave her fresh kibble every night, but she doesn't touch it, and provide her with a small "buffet" of fruits and vegetables which she usually doesn't touch either.

And now she's finally gaining weight. She's gained 20 grams in the past 10 days, but prior to that it took her 30 days to gain the same amount. Her poop is less, no odor, nice consistency. Her energy level during playpen time and cuddle time is normal, but as noted in an earlier post, her wheeling time has gone from 10-11 miles a night down to 3-6 miles a night.

Any insight on proportions of Instinct and raw chicken to feed? Should I do away with Instinct because they don't seem to want anyone to know exactly how much bone is in it, or does anyone know this information, or does it even matter? Should I try to just switch her over to a good wet cat food and her raw chicken, supplemented with raw chicken neck vertebrae? She's not a fan of wet cat food, but will now eat a little of it instead of kibble if that's her only choice.

I do know that we have reached a point of no return on kibble. She won't go back to it, and I don't blame her. She looks forward to her meals now, and is usually up waiting for me when I bring her dish before I go to bed at midnight. The mother and grandmother in me likes to see her kids enjoy their meals


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

It does say on the site that the calcium percentage in the food is 1%, to phosphorus's 0.67%. From what I'm finding on the usual percentages for dogs & cats, it seems just a tad on the higher end, but I wouldn't consider that a bad thing for hedgehogs. Keep in mind that you're also feeding the insects - they're higher in phosphorus than calcium (which is why reptile owners have to dust insects in calcium & vitamin supplements to feed their animals), so they probably help balance it out a little bit. Personally I wouldn't worry about feeding the ground chicken in addition to the Nature's Variety because of the insects. I would expect feeding a 50/50 mix of the two things to be more likely to throw off the calcium: phosphorus ratio than to help. 

I did think of something regarding the running, though it might not be anything accurate at all (this is completely a guess/suggestion) - starches tend to provide long-term energy, I wonder if all of her running before was due to that and now with fewer starches in her diet, she just doesn't need to run so much? Like I said, this might make no sense whatsoever, if someone knows I'm wrong, please tell me. :lol: And let me know if you do think of any possible reasons for the change in her behavior there. It's very interesting & no one else has mentioned that kind of change in their hedgehog after switching diets, that I can remember. That does sound good that she's otherwise behaving completely normal though. That makes me lean towards the change not necessarily being a bad thing, at least.

If you're concerned about the fat content, I would definitely switch out the waxworms. Crickets might be an insect to try, since they're pretty low in fat. Butterworms are also low in fat, and so are dubia ****roaches (I think). So those could all be alternatives to the waxworms to cut down on fat.

I'm glad she's liking her food so much! That's definitely a great thing.  I'm impatiently waiting for August for when I can start introducing my dog to a raw diet and see how she does on it. I have a feeling it's going to make her excited about her food again, so fingers crossed.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Thanks for responding with great insight as usual. And you may be right about the complex carbs and extra energy. I always wondered if it was nervous energy that drove her to run so much. I have noticed that she runs, then eats, then sleeps, then runs, eats and sleeps again. My instinct tells me that the drop in running is a good thing, but I still do not know enough about hedgehogs to totally trust my instincts, so having you validate that makes me feel better.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Hey, so I joined the Raw Feeding FB group you linked me to and have been loving it.  I'm in the process of switching my dog to a commercial raw diet rig ht now rather than waiting till August, I'm excited! (And this is the group, in case anyone else is curious about it - https://www.facebook.com/groups/preymodeldiet/ Opinions run pretty strong and clear on the group, but they have pretty strict rules and so far I've not seen any major issues.  Just wanted to include a warning for the sensitive!)

Anyway, CoffeeKat, I don't know if you'll have seen this post, but there's been a discussion on the group today about whether anyone's seen their dogs (border collies specifically) be more calm & focused. Several people have commented that their dogs are much more hyper or have more excitable energy (over calm/controlled energy) on kibble than on raw. So that seems to lend a little support towards why Lulu's energy seems to have calmed down a bit, I think!

Also heh, her routine reminds me of a cat. I've heard it's best to do an active play session with them, let them "kill" a toy, feed them, then they sleep & groom and such. Sounds like she's got herself on a great schedule!


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Yes, I saw that discussion on activity level, and found myself nodding as I read it. LuLu is definitely more "mellow" since we switched to raw, and somehow I think that perhaps she was sensitive or maybe allergic to something in the kibble that caused her hyperactivity...somewhat similar to how a little boy acts when you give him a Snickers bar and a Mountain Dew 

I find myself going to that discussion group several times a day. It's addictive. I also go to a group called Hedgehog Happenings, and another called Hedgehog Anonymous, and it was there that I just saw a post about feeding feeder fish as a treat, which sparked my interest. This might be a good supplement to a raw diet once or twice a week, if I can get beyond my fear of bones and choking. I also would want to supervise, in case I have to do the "Hedgelich Maneuver" but the Lu does not like to eat in front of an audience. 

Actually, I was not aware of the run-eat-sleep-run-eat-sleep pattern until I read about it someplace, by a veterinarian who was talking about how tiny their stomachs are, and how they are unable to eat as much as they need in one feeding. Once I learned that, I began feeding her in courses during the evening and it's very satisfying to see her waiting for her dinner at 10 p.m. and again at midnight (I check her wheel odometer at midnight and it's always about 2 miles. By morning it's 5 or 6) I've checked on her at 3 a.m. before and found her second course half eaten, but it's always gone by morning.

I'm excited for you and your journey into raw feeding with your dog. Until recently, I've had dogs in my life since I was a baby (old family story about one-year-old me being saved from a rattlesnake by our ****er Spaniel who died when she was bitten on the nose as she killed it). Most recently we lost our yellow lab, Bubba, at the age of 14. And probably a dozen dogs in between, and all these years we just fed them kibble without a thought. I wish I had known then what I know now.....


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Tell me about it, I've been on the group all day when I wasn't out of the house looking at meat prices and buying a commercial raw food to start with. :lol: I just finished writing up a list of best prices for meat & which store to get it, as well as what I still need to find! I stayed up an hour later than I should've...I'm too excited about this. 

Feeding feeder fish would be very interesting! Let me know if you try it, and if Lulu does okay with it! I'm glad she's still doing well and likes her food so much she's waiting for it.  I'm hoping my pup will get to that point with her food. She was a little hesitant with her first meal tonight, I think the texture threw her off. We'll see how she does tomorrow, I guess. And I know what you mean - my pup's 14 years old and I wish we'd thought to switch her to a raw diet sooner. She has all kinds of problems that are "typical" for the breed - bad, yeasty ears, seborrhea (skin condition), overweight, etc. I'm hoping the raw will help with some of them, but I'm also afraid to get my hopes up too much in case it doesn't! If she goes back to enjoying and looking forward to her meals each day, I'll be perfectly happy with that.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

So what is the prevailing wisdom on feeding beef or pork to hedgehogs? Seems I read someplace that red meat is hard for them to digest, but wouldn't pinkies be considered red meat? Or is there another reason why not, or no reason at all? We're starting week 3 on a raw diet and I'm thinking ahead to variety.

We've settled in with Nature's Variety Instinct raw frozen bites, currently chicken but soon to add duck. Her poop was getting a little too firm and turning whitish when it dried (I'm assuming from the ground bone in the NV) so I tried sprinkling a little bit of probiotic on her food, and she refused to eat any of it. I felt so guilty, because she was so excited for her dinner and I ruined it for her. Just to be sure, I tried it the next night with just a portion of her food, and she didn't eat that portion but polished off the rest of it. Now I mix pumpkin with raw ground chicken, which she loves, and give her about a teaspoon of that mixture so her poop is great now. Live and learn...

We did try feeder fish, chicken neck vertebrae, and even a raw chicken wing drumette (skinless) and she wouldn't touch it, or maybe didn't know what to do with it, so I'm finished with experimenting. I'm happy with what she's eating now (the raw supplemented with meal worms, wax worms, yogurt and vegetables), just wondering if there's a reason why raw red meat should not be rotated for variety. I really love the fact that she is excited to eat now, and want to keep that excitement going.

I've totally stopped offering kibble because she totally stopped eating it. I still wanted to leave something in her dish to munch on, however, so I found dehydrated raw bites made by I and Love and You (what a ridiculous sounding name). I think she eats one or two every now and then, but not much. I do like that company and the food it makes, but apparently I like it more than LuLu does


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yay, I'm so glad she's doing great! That's interesting that the NV was a bit too much bone for her. I know the right amount varies for dogs, so it's logical that it would for hedgies as well. That's a good thing to know in case others find a similar issue with their hedgies and NV or other commercial raw foods.

The only reason I ever remember seeing against red meat was the higher fat content, since hedgies are so often prone to being chubby. I think I've also seen a comment or two against it due to the fact that they wouldn't be eating cows or pigs in the wild, but...they also wouldn't be eating kibble, so I personally wouldn't object to red meat for that reason. :lol: I don't think I see any reason not to see how she does with it, as long as the fat content isn't too much. 

I think NV also makes freeze-dried raw food, I don't know if you've considered checking that out? Or is it larger pieces? I've heard of I and Love and You (and agree on the name, lol), but don't know much about it.


----------



## gracefulchaos01 (Mar 19, 2014)

Well dang. this is a pretty amazing thread and is very inspiring. I can't say that with my present schedule that a raw diet for the hedgies is something I could pull off, however I'm over here considering supplemental options. Gabe and Tibers usually get pretty excited when they know it's time for wet food and I think they might benefit emotionally from additional nutrition options. Gayle never touches her wet food but eats her blended kibble like there is no tomorrow. I would like to see her enjoy something less processed more often. Beau and Sebastian really have no feelings towards their food but I know they eat. I would be excited to find something that they might be excited for. When every one was about 2.5 months old I tried an experiment with baby foods and not a single hog would touch it. They all put up their noses at it. I am going to check out those FB groups and websites. 
Everything for me seems to take forever to put into process though so I may only be able to update via the Pet Journal. 
but ideas, ideas...


----------



## sheap (Mar 12, 2012)

Things have been crazy in my life lately, so I kinda lost this thread...so glad I found it again!

My hedgies are going to raw in two weeks (Dmitri is partially raw now, but Nina is still with the midwife until after my vacation, so I figured it's best to start them together. ANYHOO...) and I love that this thread has given me so much to think about and so many ideas!

Have you heard of the brand Primal? It's a frozen raw and around me, it's way less (price wise) than Nature's Variety (Primal is about $30/4# and NV is about $50/4# at the one store that sells it!). Thought I'd ask since that's what Dmitri is eating now, and he loves it. Sometimes he even tries to eat it still frozen. :lol: They have a bunch of protein bases too, so you can choose whatever animal you want! lol


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Jeeze, that's a lot! I'm feeding NV to my dog now. A 6-lb bag of the large (8 oz) chicken patties costs $30 at the store I'm getting it from. I've heard good things about Primal too though! I haven't done a ton of looking at the different commercial raw foods, mainly because my dog's only staying on it until mid-August, when I'll switch over to a Prey Model Raw diet. I'll definitely be doing more looking at the commercial diets once I'm in a position to get a hedgehog again! There's a good chance I'll use one for the main diet or as a transition for hedgies. I'll just have to figure out which one! I'm glad the thread has helped you so much.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

My first thought, after reading that article about commercial pet food production, was simply "Yuck!" Even the better-quality kibble became to me, in my mind, just crunchy little nubs of nastiness. Even so, if LuLu had loved her food I probably would have left well enough alone. But she didn't love her kibble. She ate barely enough to survive, ran 10-11 miles every night, and worried the crap out of me constantly with her weight. I stuffed her full of wax worms and we celebrated every gram gained. We offered her an embarrassing array of foods, trying to stimulate her appetite, but she simply was not food-motivated. And then she discovered raw food and it's as if a light came on. She loves her food now, waits for me to bring it, and she's up to 280 grams (she's 6 months old).

Just yesterday, someone challenged my decision to "buck tradition" in feeding my hedgehog, and asked how I knew that I was meeting all her nutritional needs, and how I knew that I was not shortening her life by making such a dramatic change. I don't know for sure, but I feel that I have made an informed decision based on a tremendous amount of research and with the help of the knowledge of many people on this forum and others. But more importantly, I feel that I have improved the quality of her life, if not the longevity. In the wild, animals are driven by two things: procreation and food. I am denying her the opportunity to bear and raise young because I will never breed her, but I won't deny her the pleasure of food or the satisfaction of "pursuing" it (running on her wheel). If she had found pleasure in her kibble, or even wet cat food, I would not have changed, probably. I would never advocate that someone else change their animal's diet based on my own ideas or preferences (although I have four granddogs and a grandcat who could all benefit from a raw diet 

I am fortunate to have a nearby Petco that sells the small 8 ounce sample bag of Nature's Variety raw bites. Right now we're working through the chicken formula, but I'm going to try the duck bites soon, and then probably the beef. Even though she's started eating like a hog, she's still a teeny tiny hog and a pretty cheap date.

Anyway, the point of all this windbaggery is this: most hedgehogs do well on a good-quality cat kibble and present no real reason to change. For those who feel that a change is warranted, I hope that those of us who are doing it can learn from each other because in many ways, it's uncharted territory.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Okay, an update on Nature's Variety Instinct frozen raw bites and a breakdown on its ingredients ratio: In an earlier post ln this thread, I mentioned having contacted the company to find out the percentage breakdown of meat, bone and organ in the claim of "95% chicken, turkey, organs and bones". Yesterday I got my answer: 50% meat, 30% organs, 15% bone. The ingredient list includes turkey heart and turkey liver. I can't really find an ideal ratio for hedgehogs, but for dogs, cats and ferrets it's 80% muscle meat, 10% organ meat, and 10% bone. So I plan to continue adding raw ground meat (switching to ground turkey from chicken) to hopefully balance this out a bit, and continue the pumpkin for poop issues to counter-balance the bone.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Were you the one who posted about that on the feeding group? I remember someone mentioning that they may be including heart (which is fed as muscle meat, despite being called an organ) in the organs category, so their percentages may not be that bad. But I hope she continues to do well on the mix you have planned.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Yes, that was me posting in the raw feeding group, and felt I needed to update the info here as well since I first voiced my concerns about bone content here. I feel very comfortable with her diet now, especially once I get her transitioned off chicken. Planning to see how she feels about coconut oil tonight


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Okay, another update on LuLu's Big Adventure in Raw Feeding...this time an update on behavioral changes. 

Something remarkable has happened but I am reluctant to credit raw feeding, although I have no idea what else could be responsible: Lu has stopped biting my husband and now will lay quietly on his chest for long periods of time. This is big! Used to be he could not hold her because she would scramble all over him, and almost every day she just bit him someplace for no reason and without warning. He is the only one she has ever bitten, and he wouldn't admit it, but her behavior upset him because he adores her. We were baffled by her behavior because he always washed his hands before handling her, is not a smoker, his clothing smelled the same as mine, we use the same body wash and hand soap, and yet during our evening bonding times Lu would lie quietly in my hand for hours, letting me stroke her cheeks and side, rub her tummy, massage her tiny little Barbie feet and rub her ears. 

She hasn't bitten my husband for a month now, and for the past 4 or 5 days she has actually stayed in his cupped hand on his chest when we have her out at night. About the time she started letting him hold her, I had switched her raw organic chicken for turkey because I had read that many dogs are allergic or sensitive to chicken. Her little bag of chicken formula Nature's Variety Instinct raw bites is almost gone, so I plan to switch up to duck or beef or maybe rabbit and totally remove chicken from her diet, just in case she has a sensitivity to it.

The other change since switching to raw is her activity level. I was concerned about the fact that her wheeling decreased dramatically when she stopped eating kibble, from 10 miles a night to 3-4 and now down to 1-2. Now that she is eating more and exercising less, she's gaining an average of 1 gram a day, which is fine because she can stand to put on more weight. We wake her at mid-day and bring her out for her weigh in, allow her to poop and pee, a couple of worms, then spend some time in her playpen. She's very active in her playpen, but it's more of a nervous energy, almost "Okay, let's get this % $#@ over with so I can go back to bed". We've tried letting her sleep all day and putting her in the playpen at night but she just huddles and refuses to explore. She only likes to cuddle at night.

So, in her playpen we have a saucer wheel and she spends a lot of time running on it but I don't like the angle of her body on it so only allow it in the playpen. Her housing area has a 12" cake top wheel, which has the bicycle odometer attached to it. Yesterday I decided to remove the saucer wheel from the playpen and put the caketop wheel in instead to see if I could get a clue as to why she wasn't running as much. She seemed reluctant to get on it, but finally did. And she always fell off, regardless of the angle. 

The problem seemed to be that she is too long for her wheel...when she runs, she does it at an angle with her nose outside the wheel and as she builds up speed, she falls off. I contacted Larry T to see if he makes a larger wheel (he doesn't) so I've been looking at 15" chinchilla wheels. Haven't found one I like yet, so may end up making my own.


----------



## DaegSteorra (Jul 11, 2014)

I too keep kibble in my Mena's cage around the clock but she will wait for her dinner. She loves a little bit of cooked egg, hadock, or chicken so when I make some for myself I always put a couple of tsp aside for her for the next few days and moisten and warm it to just above room temp for her before she eats it. She also likes to nibble bits of fruit and yellow squash or zuchini I will offer her here and there. I personally shrink from the idea of giving her raw items because one way or another they will have been sitting and though she might possibly be resistant to bacteria, others of us are not....


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...you-could-destroy-their-kidney-and-liver.aspx

Interesting article on protein, kidneys and crappy kibble. The author advocates raw prey model diets for pets, but that's not why I posted this. Feeding raw is not an option for everyone, but careful research and label-reading on pet kibble is crucial and "do able" for anyone.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

You know how your favorite supermarket waits until you know where everything is, then totally remodels and moves every item to a different location? LuLu has done the equivalent of that with her diet: just when I began to feel comfortable with her nutritional balance, she has decided that she does not like Nature's Variety Instinct raw bites after all. Flatly refuses to eat them. Started on chicken, she loved it. Tried to offer variety with turkey, duck, rabbit, beef, no, no, no, and no. Back to chicken, and she started eating less and less of the bites. I thought maybe they were freezer burned so returned them to Petco and exchanged for a fresh bag. Now she won't touch any of it. I tried thawing and mashing them into a meatball, no. Tried hiding one inside a raw ground chicken meatball. No. Tried thinning with water and feeding with a syringe. Oh h**l no!

Her Royal Pickiness also will not eat any wet cat food that I have tried, nor any baby food I have tried. She won't touch kibble now (smart girl) but occasionally nibbles on raw dehydrated chicken by I and Love and You that I offer every day. At this moment she is living on raw ground organic chicken from Whole Foods, meal worms and wax worms. Not even remotely close to a balanced diet, I know. If I offer less of the raw ground chicken and more of the Instinct bites, she simply eats less. Can't "tough love" a hedgehog.

I spent the weekend doing research, and poring over the natural and raw food stickies on this forum. My brain hurts. I was planning to order the chicken grind from My Pet Carnivore, but delivery to my area is not for another 2 weeks. But even then, this would not be a complete diet and I'm not sure I could get her to eat her veggies to balance things out.

Logic tells me that given choices, animals will eat what they need to balance their diets. I remember years ago, my toddler boys went through a stage where they would eat nothing but tater tots, hot dogs and applesauce. My pediatrician didn't seem worried, said to always offer vegetables with every meal and when their little bodies needed something they would eat it. He was right...a green bean here, a carrot there, three peas, whatever, but the stage passed and they are healthy, strapping men now. But can I trust my tiny hedgehog to do that? I've had animals all my life, a big variety of animals, but never had one that was not motivated by food. 

My weekend of research reinforced my earlier decision to avoid, if possible, the responsibility of trying to balance all the nutrients in her diet. A commercial raw diet is in order, assuming I can find something that she will eat. I've narrowed it down to Stella and Chewy's, Bravo balance, or Primal raw. I've found a local pet "boutique" who sells them all, but not sure where to start. As I said earlier, my brain hurts.

Part of the problem with the Instinct bites might be the texture, now that I think of it. It really does resemble a pate` cat food, and she does not like pate` at all. I suppose it's the organs that give it that texture, but does anyone have experience with these other foods I mentioned? What is the texture like?

it's scary to think these little critters can suddenly decide they don't like something and then be too picky to try something else. Also, nothing else has changed to throw her off. Still active, poop a little loose but that's probably because she's not getting bone from the Instinct bites.


----------



## sheap (Mar 12, 2012)

Dmitri likes his Primal Pronto.

As for the texture, it is sort of smooth but very similar to ground meat from the grocers. Not like a pate, I don't think. Actually, I'll let some of it thaw in the fridge before feeding it to Dmitri tonight and will try to remember to get a picture for you.

Hope this helps!


----------



## gracefulchaos01 (Mar 19, 2014)

When we first bought the instinct raw bites we bought 4 different kinds and we rotate them out every night. We rotate the wet canned food as well. I'm not all about picky eaters. Though I totally appreciate a preference for quality. 
I hope Lulu settles down and eats something worthwhile soon.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Lulu...don't go making life difficult for your mama! I unfortunately don't have any experience with any of the brands you've mentioned. Does the store by any chance have sample size bags? Maybe you could try getting a few of them so you can test them out on her and see if she'll eat any of them. Sounds like Primal might be a good thing to try first if the texture is different like Sheap says.

If you're concerned by her poop or balancing just for right now while she's being picky, you could try crushing up eggshells or get some bonemeal tablets to crush up to add to her bites. It would be very small amounts, if what I've read on the group is correct. I think I've seen 1/2 teaspoon per pound for bonemeal powder, but it might be a good idea to post & see if anyone knows for sure & how they figured it out, etc. But as long as it's very short term, I doubt the imbalance would cause too many problems, at least. I don't blame you for not wanting to balance it on your own, with as tiny as these guys are!

Another option that I don't know if it's been mentioned or considered yet...There's other commercial foods that aren't raw, but are still better quality than kibble. The one I'm thinking of specifically is The Honest Kitchen. Perhaps that might be worth a try if you can get a hold of it? It seems like it could be a bit customizable considering you can add more/less water to get different consistencies, so maybe that might help to find her "sweet spot" for how she likes it.

Good luck, I hope you can get your picky girl eating better again soon! Let us know how she does.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Sheap, that sounds great, a pic would help I think. I was leaning toward the Primal Pronto of the three, but can't remember why exactly and my notes are in another room. Got Her Highness snuggled in my lap at the moment so I'm not inclined to disturb her. She is so spoiled...how did she get that way?

Kelsey, I truly am open to any form of healthy food that she will eat and enjoy, as long as it isn't kibble. I'm not committed to raw feeding necessarily, but I AM committed to organic and hormone-free, and the place I'm going tomorrow has Honest Kitchen and dozens of different brands of holistic food, many of them (but not all) with sample sizes. And so our little adventure begins. Again. Did I mention my brain hurts?


----------



## MomLady (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks, Kelsey for mentioning The Honest Kitchen. I just ordered a sample pack of cat food for my Nara. It was only a dollar but I found a promo code *TRYTHKFB,* so it ended up just being the cost of shipping ($1.50). I think it's great that they offer a sample so you can see if your critter will eat it before shelling out money for 2 pounds!

Like CoffeeKat, I do want to try healthy food and try to get away from kibble. The Honest Kitchen is edible by humans, so I want to give it a try. Being a vegetarian myself, I would rather not handle raw food.

I will let you know how my Narakins likes it when I get it!

Thanks for all the good info!! :grin: You guys ROCK!

ML


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Really pumped here (but it doesn't take much to excite me) because I just returned from my little shopping trip with a Primal starter pack, 3 oz. portions of beef, lamb, duck and chicken, and a small pouch of Stella and Chewy's freeze-dried duck duck goose. Unless y'all think it's a bad idea, my plan is to put a dab of each new food out tonight, along with what I would normally feed her, and see what she eats. As long as she has plenty of food that she is familiar with as an option, and not a large amount of any one new food, she should be okay as far as tummy upset goes?


----------



## MomLady (Aug 14, 2010)

Sounds like a plan! That's how we usually introduce a new kibble--a few pieces at a time to see if it causes tummy problems.

Let us know how it goes!!!


----------



## sheap (Mar 12, 2012)

Sorry it took me so long to post these pictures...I've been a bit under the weather. But here they are, hope they help...







and


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Laughing here....looks like a turd in a bowl, but I definitely see that it doesn't look like pate` so it might be a "go". Thanks for the picture, and hope you're feeling better soon.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

:lol: It really does, though my first thought was one of those baby food sausages.

Glad I was able to help MomLady, I hope Nara likes her new food! 

How'd Lulu do with the open buffet, CoffeeKat?


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Well. The Little Prick (as my 87-year-old mother calls her) continues to be....a little prick when it comes to trying new food. She didn't touch her buffet of yumminess, but we're not finished yet. My mistake may have been in giving her the raw chicken she loves first. Another trick up my sleeve is half-burying a mealworm in the new stuff. That's how I initially got her to try the raw chicken that she so dearly loves, and that took a week or more of repeated offerings. Now that I know she isn't going to make this easy for me, I'll concentrate on one new item at a time and see how long this takes.

This pickiness thing with hedgehogs baffles me. Their wild ancestors ate all kinds of nasty during their nightly foraging expeditions, and it's doubtful that they were picky about any of it. Guess it's their way of reminding us who's really in control, just in case we get too comfortable and forget.


----------



## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok, I'm tired of reading this thread in jealousy!!
So I just ordered a 1.25lb bag of frozen raw duck bites. I hope to have them by Saturday. Yay!! I had to order online because petsmart only had the chicken and rabbit. Plus it was only $4 more than petsmart to order. So to me it's worth it to try the duck.
I wanted the rabbit bites but am scared they won't eat it. The duck bites have 95% duck, Turkey, organs and bones. I know both my hedgies like turkey so I figured that might get them to try it..

And thanks Kelsey for "thehonestkitchen" I was going to order some samples yesterday but they are out of stock.
Both the cat foods they have are high in fat (35% and 39%) so I think when I order samples I will just use that food as treats.


----------



## gracefulchaos01 (Mar 19, 2014)

So, I'm following this thread, looking at other threads, wondering how do-able this is in a home kitchen and the thought of bone meal comes up. Bone meal, in small quantities, is fine. But in larger quantities it can be toxic. What is the proper quantity of bone meal for a hedgehog? Is the amount of bone meal found in pre made raw cat/dog foods suitable? 
I'm not panicking or anything. I'm just wondering. People use this stuff as fertilizer because of its high phosphorus content. It's a fair question.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Grace, I'm still learning too, and I hope that Kelsey or Draenog comes along to set me straight if this is wrong information, but it's my understanding that commercial raw diets such as Instinct and Primal contain ground bone in a sufficient ratio for any animal (10% roughly) without the addition of bonemeal. In the absence of bone, such as when muscle meat is ground for feeding, the recommendations I am finding from more than one source is 1 teaspoon of bonemeal (human grade) or eggshell ground fine to one pound of meat. If the boneless meat is not ground, but fed whole, I'm not sure what the dosage for a hedgehog would be...a tiny dusting on the surface I would imagine.

This is exactly why I am freaking out at the moment, because I really don't know enough to confidently balance LuLu's diet without the help of commercial raw formulas that include the meat, organs, bones, vegies and trace nutrients she might need, and she's not eating them. Even going back to kibble is not an option, because she won't eat that either. All she wants is raw chicken and worms.

going to try hand feeding (okay, chopstick feeding) some duck formula tonight, an idea that came from Sheap in another thread, and I have a few more ideas up my sleeve, but I would think that if your kids will eat commercial raw or wet food and insects, you've got nothing to worry about as far as nutrition.


----------



## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

I spend way too much time worrying about what my hedgehog eats, or doesn't eat, or wants to eat, or should eat, or might eat. So LuLu and I have reached an agreement: she agrees to eat what she wants and I agree to provide it. It has taken her awhile to train me, but we finally have a breakthrough. 

What she wants, and what she gets, is pinkie mice. I'm not crazy about the idea, but she is. The thing is, when she has a pinkie in her dish, she eats. Not just the pinkie, but everything else: Instinct duck bites (but only 4) fruits, vegetables, worms, crickets. Without the pinkie being offered, all she eats is the crickets and worms.It's almost as if she's bargaining with me...."give me my mouse, and I will eat this other crap you want me to eat". And her excitement level when she knows it's there! That, in itself, is priceless.

So yes, I feed my hedgehog a frozen (thawed) pinkie mouse as a major part of her diet. Research in threads here seems to indicate that pinkies are not very nutritious and not needed, but that's assuming the hedgehog is getting her nutrition from kibble. Seems to me that the tiny little organs in the pinkie would be of some value, and she does eat 4 duck bites, which provide some bones and organs, but I have begun sprinkling calcium powder on the mouse and worms to help balance out the phosphorus, and I have some Missing Link supplement powder ordered from Amazon. (I tried eggshells but can't get them ground fine enough for sneaking it in. Anything with eggshells gets left in the dish. I'm using finely-ground oyster shells, no phosphorous, reptile calcium).

*sigh* I'm still not sure this will all balance out, but it is what it is. At least she is eating, and she's excited about her dinner now. I will continue to offer things that I think are interesting, but will not mess with her basic agreed-upon meal. She has me trained


----------

