# African Pygmy Species?



## Lily624 (Dec 11, 2012)

Hello everyone. I know I have not posted in awhile, but my hedgehog is still doing well. He had to have surgery, but came back friendlier than ever. 

Anyways, I am doing some more research on hedgehogs and had a question. What species is the African Pygmy? If it is a cross breed does it have its own?


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

African pygmy is one of the main strains/species of hedgehogs that constitute a domesticated hedgehog.

Hybrids and domesticated hedgehogs may come from 1 of the main species or a mix of the 2 or more.

These species include:

White-bellied hedgehog or four-toed hedgehog (Atelerix albiventris)
North African hedgehog (A. algirus). Better known as the African pygmy hedgehog
Long-eared hedgehog (Hemiechinus auritus)
Indian long-eared hedgehog (H. collaris).
European hedgehogs (Erinaceus europeus)


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## Lily624 (Dec 11, 2012)

Okay, so if its a cross breed between many species, does that mean that they are not fertile? As in, if you want a make an African Pygmy you can't breed it with another one, you have to breed two of the breeds that you listed?


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## The_Senator (Dec 31, 2013)

The hedgies that are listed in North America as African Pygmies are a type created with crosses of Atelerix albiventris x A. Algirus. The other three species are almost impossible to get in N.A. Actually, I don't think you can get pure albiventris or algirus here either, since direct imports from Africa were banned to the US in the '80s, if memory serves.

At any rate, African Pygmies aren't a pure strain of wild hedgehog, but they're perfectly fertile, and they breed with each other ^_^


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## Lily624 (Dec 11, 2012)

Okay, I'm just confused because cross breeds of 2 different species are not supposed to be fertile, like lion with tiger. But two different sub-species can produce fertile offspring, but usually do not because they live in different places.
So maybe the different species are actually sub-species?


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## Haley (Nov 18, 2013)

Lily624 said:


> Okay, I'm just confused because cross breeds of 2 different species are not supposed to be fertile, like lion with tiger. But two different sub-species can produce fertile offspring, but usually do not because they live in different places.
> So maybe the different species are actually sub-species?


The word species is meaningless. So is subspecies.

A conservationist will often define one way, a research biologist another, an anthropologist yet another.

Species classification is a tool, how you define species depends on what you are looking at. The great species debate has been going on for a long time. I often forget this and get confussed by how people use the word. I used to study genetics, the fertile offspring distinction was a useful way to talk about things. It is not the only way. Genetic study is changing a great deal of what we thought we knew.

Most of what I have seen in hedgehogs in N America points to most of the gene pool coming from the four-toed hedgehog (Atelerix albiventris), or African pygmy hedgehog. Based on morphology more than anything else. Scientific researchers consider the average domestic hedgehog in America to be A. albiventris and that is how they are identified in journal publications. I could go on, but it is well past my bedtime.

The short answer is, they are adorable and very fertile. Keep girls and boys far away from each other!


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

I've always wondered why hedgies in Asia have longer legs, higher ground to belly difference, two pairs of very visible teeth when they sniff up and tends to appear more slimmer and have longer noses than most hedgies i've seen from the US/canada/EU region. Asian hedgies also tend to mature late and thus breed late as well.

I was so desperate to make my hedgies as fat as the ones you have but apparently their gene pools has something to do with them not being able to achieve the fatness that i want haha


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

They are originally a cross breed between the Algerian hedgehog and the four-toed hedgehog (as far as I know), which is why there are white bellied colours and Algerian colours; because those didn't mix when they bred them together. 

Are you talking about the African pygmy hedgehogs in the Philippines, Tongue_Flicker? There aren't many differences, I know quite a lot of people from over there with APH and they look the same as the APH from Europe or the US. The visible front teeth are normal and most Algerian coloured hedgehogs have a longer nose compared to the white bellied coloured ones, at least from what I've seen - there seems to be a slight difference in body shape between the two types. I'm not sure if this is entirely true though.
They do tend to be smaller in your country, but this can also be due to malnutrition (from what I've seen, lots of people over there don't treat them very well). The legs probably just look longer, when a hedgehog is more chubby the legs seem shorter. 
Or it's selective breeding; APH in my country tend to be bigger than the average hog in the US, they might select them to be smaller in the US (or we simply have bigger ones here).


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## Lily624 (Dec 11, 2012)

Thanks Haley. At least I'm not the only one who is confused about the whole species thing. I thought it was established that a different amount of chromosomes made it impossible for hybrids to be fertile so that made them a different species. Oh well. Such is the difficulty of studying animal science.

The reason I ask is because I am doing a school project, and I need to say which species about which I am writing. Luckily I explained the confusion to my teacher, and she said its fine if I report about a hybrid of more than one species. :-D
So I might be calling on you guys again if I get stuck. ;-)


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

Draenog said:


> They are originally a cross breed between the Algerian hedgehog and the four-toed hedgehog (as far as I know), which is why there are white bellied colours and Algerian colours; because those didn't mix when they bred them together.
> 
> Are you talking about the African pygmy hedgehogs in the Philippines, Tongue_Flicker? There aren't many differences, I know quite a lot of people from over there with APH and they look the same as the APH from Europe or the US. The visible front teeth are normal and most Algerian coloured hedgehogs have a longer nose compared to the white bellied coloured ones, at least from what I've seen - there seems to be a slight difference in body shape between the two types. I'm not sure if this is entirely true though.
> They do tend to be smaller in your country, but this can also be due to malnutrition (from what I've seen, lots of people over there don't treat them very well). The legs probably just look longer, when a hedgehog is more chubby the legs seem shorter.
> Or it's selective breeding; APH in my country tend to be bigger than the average hog in the US, they might select them to be smaller in the US (or we simply have bigger ones here).


yeah the body shape is the most noticeable feature. N.american and European hedgies tend to be appear somewhat flattened horizontally while the ones occuring in the Philippines tends to be elliptical or rounded vertically in shape.

Size is definitely smaller here. there are two things i noticed about Philippine Hedgie's though, they are more social and i've never heard of grumpy or biting incidents here. I've also noticed that ours eat a lot of insects prey with wild abandon and doesn't eat fruits & veggies while American hedgies tend to be more picky and eats fruits. - But i'm guessing these observations are more for selective breeding


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Hybrids can be fertile, eg. the Red wolf (natural inbreeding of wolves and coyotes)

@Tongue_Flickr I've definitely heard of biting incidents over there as well as grumpy hogs. I have some people from your country on FB and I've seen lots of pics and stories and most things just seem the same (they do eat fruit and veggies) - only the body size is smaller, but that seems to be malnutrition as well in lots of cases. I've seen several tiny rescues.


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## Tongue_Flicker (Jun 11, 2013)

Draenog said:


> Hybrids can be fertile, eg. the Red wolf (natural inbreeding of wolves and coyotes)
> 
> @Tongue_Flickr I've definitely heard of biting incidents over there as well as grumpy hogs. I have some people from your country on FB and I've seen lots of pics and stories and most things just seem the same (they do eat fruit and veggies) - only the body size is smaller, but that seems to be malnutrition as well in lots of cases. I've seen several tiny rescues.


It has always struck me that ours were 'nicer' haha. Just my luck i hadn't encountered any mean hedgies in the past 6 years haha


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

I guess so!  I've seen pictures from some nasty bites in the Philippines (the hedgie drew blood) 
I haven't encountered any biting ones myself here but I've heard of incidents. Hope mine never bites me :lol:


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