# Quigley has a Tumor



## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Well I'm going to be one of those people that post a big long hedgehog health history.

We've been having some problems with Quigley. I feel terrible because I didn't even notice at first. We just lost one of our mice (Amy, I posted about it in the off topic section) and so I've been handling Zoe (our other mouse who is now alone) a lot more and she's been getting very clingy. This meant that Quigley got the minimum for a few weeks while I was adjusting to Zoe's extra care requirements. The minimum basically meant food, water a quick check to make sure he was alive and not hibernating and spot cleaning every couple of days. When I did have him out he was just asleep in the blanket.

Then all of a sudden he stopped eating.

November 28th - noticed that he hadn't touched his food the night before, I checked for hibernation and he was warm and responsive but there was no evidence that he had been out of bed at all. "I'm not worried yet, he's not hibernating so he probably just took a night off, he's 4 years old he's aloud."

Novemeber 29th - again no evidence that he had been out of bed or eaten anything. "uh oh this is serious" I took him out to sit with me and noticed a slight redness under his nose (like he licked it raw) and lots of nose licking I put some food in his bed with him. "Ok we'll make a vet appointment tomorrow."

November 30th - still had not eaten. (now I'm freaking out a bit) I syringed vegetable turkey baby food in the morning. Noticed some sneezing in the afternoon. Made the vet appointment 
-	later I found him laying in the middle of the cage (out from under his blanket). When I picked him up he felt weak - slow to ball up and didn't ball up as tight. I noticed some twitching and movements that looked like muscle spasms
-	I put him down to watch him walk and he was dragging his back legs (unknown if this was sudden or gradual because like I said there had been minimal handling)
-	I took the wheel out of the cage just in case he tried to use it.

December 1st - no change - syringed more baby food and some water. He was in the same spot I left him in the night before no evidence that he had moved. He squirms around while I am holding him and fights the syringe after a while. He moves around for a minute after I put him back in his cage but otherwise doesn't seem to move at all.

December 2nd - vet appointment this morning. Josh (Boy friend) had to take him because I was working. The vet watched him move which apparently he was uncooperative for (pretty much just wanted to sleep) and then examined him. He has a tumor in his bladder. They did an x-ray to confirm. The x-ray also told us that it is inoperable. He's not getting better from this. Basically we just have to syringe feed him and keep him comfortable. (Keep in mind that he just had a vet check up mid sept. No tumors.)

The vet gave us Oxbow Carnivore Care to syringe feed him (I think we feed it as well as his usual food but Josh wasn't sure about this). The Carnivore Care is a powder so to feed it we have to mix it with water. She also gave us *Metronidazole* which is supposed to help counteract the damage to his liver from not eating.

I've never heard of the Metronidazole stuff before so I was wondering if anyone knows anything about it. He gets 0.03 ml every 12 hours.

As for the Carnivore Care it's super high in protein but the vet thinks it will help right now. I guess he needs more nutrients. He gets 3 tablespoons (mixed with 6 tablespoons of water) thats 88 ml. Since I can only get him to eat about 3 - 4 ml at a time from the syringe this should be interesting. Does anyone know if I can freeze this? it says on the package that it only lasts 7 days in the fridge and we won't finish the bag before then.

Thanks to everyone on this forum. I'm glad there is a place I can dump all of this information. It would be way too overwhelming otherwise.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm so sorry this is happening. Hopefully it is slow growing and you can have some time left with him. 

I don't know about freezing Carnivore care once mixed. I kind of doubt it. When I've used it, I haven't used any formula for mixing. I just mix up a small amount that I know he/she might eat at a time. You can put the bag of dry in the freezer.


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## PJM (May 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear about Quigley! So much at one time for you to go through. I'll be keeping both of you in my thoughts.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

I'm so sorry to hear of Quigley's tumour...love and cuddle him as much as you can.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Thanks everyone. I just keep feeling like I wish I had noticed something was wrong sooner. In reality though it happened so fast that this was probably the only outcome. 

Thank you Nancy. I was talking about freezing the dry stuff. Will he really eat so much of it? 3 tablespoons seems like a lot - he only ever ate 1 1/2 tablespoons of his dry kibble. 

On the plus side I just had him out to snuggle with me and he is still himself. huffy and stubborn and trying to walk off the chair. He crawls around the room for a minute but it looks like it really wears him out. Since he can't really use his back legs very well he is just sort of dragging them along and using them to push himself a little bit. It's actually very cute.


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## abrowndog (Nov 26, 2010)

I am so sorry.


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## susanaproenca (Aug 14, 2010)

So sorry to hear about Quigley. Warm thoughts are going in your direction. Please keep us updated on him.


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## RalphsMum (Oct 14, 2010)

Sorry to hear about Quigley..poor lil guy....lots of cuddles in order...


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

so sorry.  

Harvey took Metronidazole when he had URI. not sure what to say about it--it helped in his case. i have no knowledge whatsoever about how antibiotics help with tumors.


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## fracturedcircle (May 31, 2010)

how old is your boy?


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## ThePliny (Jun 3, 2010)

Sending good thoughts you way. Give little Quigley lots of cuddles and snuggles.


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## Alastrina (Sep 18, 2009)

Warm thoughts and love for Quigley, and some hugs for his mommy too...


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

A special prayer for little Quigley.


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## PJsMom (Nov 20, 2010)

i am so sorry to hear about your lil boy. just keep him comfy and love on him all you can


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

Praying for you both.
Hugs Larry


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## krbshappy71 (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm sorry you and Quigley are going through this.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

fracturedcircle said:


> how old is your boy?


He is four years old.

Apparently the Metrodi-whatsit stuff is for his liver. I didn't get to talk to the vet directly though.

Thanks to everyone for the prayers and good thoughts.

We managed to get quite a bit of the carnivore care food into him last night. Josh had converted tablespoons to ml wrong so it wasn't as much as I thought. He also took his medicine no problem. He was very wiggly last night for feeding and the vet gave us a larger syringe with a feeding tip. The syringe was so fat that no matter how slowly or gently I pushed it in I gave him just a bit more than a mouth full. By the time we were done he was covered in carnivore care mush. He desperately needs a bath. Carnivore Care really stinks!!!! It seemed to make him feel better though because he was walking around almost normally again this morning. YAY!!!

Since I don't know how much time he has left I'm trying not to think about the fact that the tumor is terminal and just focus on the little victories like getting food into him, and seeing some normal activities.


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## kelybely (Oct 19, 2010)

Sorry to hear the bad news, hope everything works out.


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## tie-dye hedgie (Dec 19, 2009)

Sending prayers and happy thoughts to you all. ((Hugs))


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

Hope everything is going good, that is a great thing that you got him to eat and that it perked him up


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## firephoenixla (Sep 13, 2010)

Poor little critter, I hope Quigley feels better soon!


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

All of us here at my house are sending good thoughts your way. *hugs*

Also, if you need smaller (10cc) syringes, go to your local pharmacy and ask for one from the people behind the counter. I went and they gave me one for free when I needed it to feed my cat.

What you can also do, is slick the black tip of the syringe pump with veggie oil(or whatever oil you use at home). It will make the pump slide MUCH easier without much force, making it easier to control just how much you want to get into his mouth.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Thanks for the veggie oil tip Immortalia I will try it. Last night I used the extra medicine syringes that the vet gave me to do his food with. They are better but they are only 1cc syringes so they take a lot longer. I couldn't find any small syringes at my local pharmacies the last time I went looking for them and certainly not free ones.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Weird, I went to Shoppers, and I couldn't find them either, so I went to the lady behind the pharmacy counter to ask where they kept them. And then she just gave me one. They were kept back there, instead of out in the open public. 

And if worse really comes to worse, find a horse tack shop, or pet depot, or place that sells farm feed. They will ALWAYS have many syringes to chose from and do sell them individually.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

I went to the guy behind the counter at the shoppers and all he had were insulin syringes with tips that could not be removed. I often find it hard to find things in Toronto that others say they found no problem.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Look at Walmart. If they carry the same as the store here, they will have the ones with removable tips. At Walmart here they are .25 each. Neither Shoppers or Pharma Plus carry ones with removable tips here.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

ARG! I am so frustrated with the vet right now! I thought are bag of food would last longer but it ran out last night. That means they sent is home with only four days worth of food and nothing to do when it runs out! I've talked to the secretary multiple times over the phone they have to order more food and it won't be on until Wednesday. Grrrrrr! I've already called the other exotic vet in Toronto as well as the by my house and neither of them have it.the vet says just feed him whatever I can syringe until they get more. I guess it's back to baby food unless someone has a better suggestion. BTW they don't have Hills either I already asked. 

They really should have said something on Thursday "oh this is going to run out soon and we are almost out too so do you want to order more". Greenwood park is the best (and basically the only) hedgehog vet in Toronto but this just seems like a really bad way to screw up.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

It is unbelievable that they don't sell A/D. Do they sell a different brand of syringeable food? My vet carries both Medical and Hills prescription diets but I'm unsure if medical makes a food that can be syringed. Are there any other vets that carry A/D?


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

I too would call around to ALL the vets in the area and see if they carry Hills A/D. 
There's also a 24/7 emergency vet clinic at Senlac and Sheppard(between Yonge and Bathurst), if you can get there. I am totally blanking on the name of it right now, but it can be a last option if you run out of time. And there's also Links Road Animal and Bird clinic on Yonge, by the 401. They also look at hedgehogs, in case you haven't tried them yet.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Nancy said:


> It is unbelievable that they don't sell A/D. Do they sell a different brand of syringeable food? My vet carries both Medical and Hills prescription diets but I'm unsure if medical makes a food that can be syringed. Are there any other vets that carry A/D?


I think that their brand of syringable food was different but I was so frustrated with the secretary that I was talking to that I just gave up. Every time I tried to ask her a new question she acted like I was being this unreasonable customer and just reiterated that they couldn't do anything about the Carnivore Care being out of stock. She kept saying "well we don't have many hedgehogs so it doesn't make sense to keep a lot of it in stock." I was so annoyed that they didn't even apologize for not telling us when they gave us the food that we would have to order it in to get more. I would have had it ordered already and avoided the mess if I had known I had to.

I was having just the most frustrating day. I got about three hours sleep last night, I'm so mad at the vet, I had already been at work for five hours before noon then I had a crappy meeting with my prof, and then I had to sort out where to get food from. I had already taken transit three times, was running out of tokens, didn't really have a way to keep calling all the vets since I only had my cell (because I was still at school) and I can't use it that much. All of this just put me in a crappy mood. (And I guess I needed to rant  ).

I decided to pick up some canned cat food from the pet store on my way home. I bought the closest canned cat foods to the dry stuff he was eating before (I bought wellness chicken - grain free, and chicken soup for the soul). I also bought some squash baby food because his poops have been really green from all the food changes (I hope it settles his tummy a bit). I'll give him the canned cat food and the squash until we can get more carnivore care.

If he's eating fine is there a reason to get A/D instead of just using the canned cat food for the next few days? The vet said that the carnivore care will be in on Wednesday. I'm sort of feeling like as long as he is eating healthy food I don't care what the brand on the label says. If it's canned cat food, baby food, carnivore care, hills A/D. Maybe if it would make the difference between him getting better or not but nothing will make that difference.

When we get more carnivore care can I feed him carnivore care and the canned cat food? Not mixed together but maybe a bit less carnivore care replaced with some canned cat food.

We're still keeping some of his dry food in the cage with him occasionally he'll go over and sniff the bowl, pick up a piece of kibble in his mouth and put it back down but he won't eat anything. He is drinking on his own which I take to be a good sign (i.e. that he is not really suffering).

Gack! I'm sorry for going on so much. I'm so tired. I hope this post makes sense.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Hills A/D is just more easily syringe-able. You'll find that normal wet cat food as "chunks" of stuff. It's also easier on the tummies I think, because it's the Emergency/critical care kind of food.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

yes that is what I thought. I found last night I was able to syringe some of the cat food into him but the chunks made it stick and then spurt out occasionally - leaving me, Quigley and the kitchen covered in cat food. I blended the cat food and mixed it with water but it still had just enough chunks to be a pain. 

I find baby food (Heinz organic brand) very smooth, it syringed just fine so I used that this morning. It also shouldn't be a drastic change since he has always eaten it as a treat, and when he goes on hunger strike. I think I will just continue to use that along with the Carnivore care when it comes in. 

Another update, he took a few bite of kibble this morning after being syringe fed. He parked his bed right on top of his bowl like he always does and had a few chomps. I'm glad he's feeling well enough to eat and drink a bit on his own.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Once you have put the cat food in the blender, strain it through a fine meshed sieve and it will catch all the chunks that will clog the syringe. I also use the syringe and test it and what goes through the syringe I keep in a small container in the fridge for use over the next days. This saves the mess of a clogged syringe and I find it often clogs just as hedgie is chowing down and once stopped, often they loose interest. 

I'm glad he is showing some interest in eating on his own. It's a start.


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## Tasha (Feb 24, 2009)

Only just seen this post and wanted to send loves and hugs to you and Quigley. xxx


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## Sela (Apr 10, 2010)

First time I visit HHC in a while, and I see this...I'm so sorry that you're having to go through this. I'm thinking of you; hopefully you and Quigley still have some time together. <3


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Thank you Sela and Tasha. 

Nancy you have a tip for every thing!


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## E-Che & Tonja (Jun 30, 2010)

I am so sorry that your little one is not doing well, but it is good to see that he is eating and doing a little better. *huggs*


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

My thoughts and prayers for quality time for you and Quigley. It is so easy to see how much you love him and want nothing but to make his life easier.


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## zorropirate (Aug 13, 2010)

Postive thoughts from Daisy and I. 

Hugs too for you both.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Hey all 

Been a while since I've updated. Quigley is doing well. He's still eating baby food because the vet hasn't been able to get in any more carnivore care. Mostly I'm unimpressed with vets at the moment (and their suppliers). 

Quigley has been walking normally since he started eating regularly and since having him on baby food exclusively his poop has returned to normal. He even was up and about last night which I saw lots of evidence of this morning (in the form of a completely rearranged cage). He's even been eating about 1/2 a tblsp of his dry kibble every day. YAY!!!

The only thing is that he has started having some blood in his urine. Not a lot of blood but enough that it reminds me that he is sick. He finished the medication he was on and now the vet wants to put him on medical, medicare, something like that, which is apparently a pain med. 

The vet says that blood in the urine can be a symptom of the tumor but it is evidence that he is in pain. Does anyone know if this is true? If he is in pain I wouldn't hesitate to give him the meds but I don't want the expense of the medication or to put any strain on Quigley if they are not needed. 

My boyfriend and I are both losing confidence in the vet. They've uped their rates, had us pay for a $200 x-ray that didn't tell us anything other than he has a mass, which we already knew from the exam, prescribed food for him but didn't give us access to that food, now the vet has prescribed this pain med without even talking to us directly (the secretary talked to me then the vet and relayed the message). I think the main issue I'm having is that all of a sudden we're not dealing with Dr. Munn. It's some other lady who seems new to the clinic, it's like they changed our doctor without even telling us. Sorry this has turned into a vet rant. 

It's just that vet care is so expensive and I know from experience that some clinics will try to charge for unnecessary things. I want to be sure he needs the medicine before I medicate him. What do you guys think? He's not acting like he's in pain he's more active since we've been feeding him, he looks healthy and alert, he's been enjoying his "boy time" as much as usual and he has been anointing with his favourite treat. Is blood in his urine an indication of pain? Is it likely that I would be able to tell if he was in pain? I know pray animals are good at hiding things like that. 

Thanks in advance for any advice or help you can give.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

The pain med is probably Metacam. I don't understand how blood in the urine relates to pain except that with a urinary tract or kidney infection, by the time blood shows there is pain. It may be the same with a tumour. 

Usually when they are in pain, their appetite diminishes and they aren't very active. Sometimes though when in pain they are more active and can do things like trash their cage. 

Chances are he is going to need pain meds at some point in time so I would probably start them now. If there is a chance he is in pain, you don't want that. I would ask how they give you the pain meds. Will you be able to buy the full bottle of it or do they sell you a bit at a time. The last I bought I think was about $35 and it lasted for a couple of years through numerous hedgehogs needing it. I'd still have some left but it expired. 

Metacam can be hard on the stomach. None of mine ever had an issue but you want to make sure you give him food with it and you may need something to coat his stomach as well.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Thank you Nancy. I think it was Metacam. I will be picking it up Monday at the latest. We are leaving Tuesday or Wednesday for our Christmas holiday and I want to wait to the last second before we leave so that hopefully I can pick up meds and carnivore care at the same time. If they don't get the carnivore care before we leave I'll just have to pick up the meds and make another trip for the carnivore care when we get back (we moved in the summer and the vet is now two hours away). Or maybe the vet in my home town carries it. After the Carnivore care fiasco I will definitely make sure that they give me enough meds for at least a few months. 

What would I need to coat his stomach? Would it be something the vet would prescribe with the meds, or would I just supplement with acidophilus or squash. 

Also he still seems like his breathing is not normal. It sounds like a respiratory infection to me (he had one before) should I ask the vet for Baytril? At this point I'm not sure what symptoms to treat and which to just let go.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

This thread is old. There was a point where it just got too hard to update and I just focused on caring for Quigley. He died February 19th 2011 the morning we were taking him to be put to sleep I went to get him from his cage and he had passed. Reading through this all again reminded me what we went through but it also made me remember how great his last few months with us were, we were sad but we really did enjoy caring for him. When he passed I knew it was his time and we had made his life better. Until recently I hadn't visited this forum since then. I thought about it a lot but never managed it. The last few months I've been really missing having a hedgehog and for the first time not feeling sad about Quigley when I think of hedgehogs. So I'm back. I guess I thought this was the best place to post that update. I don't know if we'll get another hedgehog soon, but maybe someday.


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

Poor sweet Quigley.  Always sad to lose one, but I'm glad he had you and was well loved to the end. Nice to have you back, who knows, maybe you'll end up with another baby to spoil.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm sorry about your dear little boy. 

I'm glad to see you back and when you are ready another hedgehog will find it's way to you.


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

I am sorry for your loss of Quigley. I understand it takes a long time to heal.


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