# Food Mix Advice for a South African



## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

Good day everyone,

I am a new hedgie owner from Johannesburg, South Africa. I know a lot of you are probably tired of newbies constantly asking which food is best for their hedgies. Living in South Africa my options for food is limited when compared to the the US & Europe.

I have done plenty research on the forum, and have found a couple threads that were started by fellow South African's. I can assure you that I am not starting this thread out of laziness.

I would like to make the optimal mix of foods available, so that my hedgie can be as healthy and as happy as possible. From my research it seems that Royal Canin is probably the best option available in SA.

A breeder has suggested Royal Canin Mother & Babycat  - Is this ok while he is still a baby? He's currently 2 months old.

These are the foods available to me that are listed on Reaper's list.

Royal Canin Indoor 27 Adult

Royal Canin Fit 32 Adult

Royal Canin Siamese 38 Adult 

Royal Canin Light 40 Adult

Please bare in mind that my little guy is 2 months old, so if possible could you advise when I should move him onto adult cat food? I would really appreciate any advice on which of the above foods or combination of foods would be best.

I am looking forward to all the learning that is to come and above all being a good hedgehog owner.

I will post some pics of Timmy this evening 

Thanks in advance for any advice - it will be greatly appreciated.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

25% fat is quite high, but you could mix the Babycat with a lower fat food until your boy is a bit older, if you wanted to.

I don't love the Indoor 27 because grains are first, but the other ones you linked will work, considering your sad selection of available cat foods . I doubt you'll need to go as low as 10% for fat content so you probably won't need the Light 40 one. I would suggest starting with Fit 32 Adult as soon as you can. After you bring him home (if you haven't already) give him two weeks or so on whatever food the breeder gives you, and then start weaning him onto the Fit 32 Adult gradually. I'm sure you've read about how to introduce foods so I won't get into that here. If the breeder gives you the Babycat (or you're okay with buying two bags), you can leave it as a mix if you want and just adjust the ratio if he starts to seem a bit chubby or if he doesn't run very much. I personally would do a mix of 25% Babycat and 75% Fit 32 until he's 6 or 7 months, and then switch to just Fit 32. Am I making sense?

If that website is your best source for food, did you look at this Eukanuba food: Eukanuba Sterilised/Weight Control? It would be alright for a hog and it has more named proteins, so I like it a bit better than the Royal Canin. You could mix it with this one: Eukanuba Healthy Start Kitten while he's young if you want to bring the fat content up. I'd do 75% weight control and 25% kitten.

If you have any more questions just let us know, and I'm waiting impatiently for pictures!


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

FinnickHog said:


> 25% fat is quite high, but you could mix the Babycat with a lower fat food until your boy is a bit older, if you wanted to.
> 
> I don't love the Indoor 27 because grains are first, but the other ones you linked will work, considering your sad selection of available cat foods . I doubt you'll need to go as low as 10% for fat content so you probably won't need the Light 40 one. I would suggest starting with Fit 32 Adult as soon as you can. After you bring him home (if you haven't already) give him two weeks or so on whatever food the breeder gives you, and then start weaning him onto the Fit 32 Adult gradually. I'm sure you've read about how to introduce foods so I won't get into that here. If the breeder gives you the Babycat (or you're okay with buying two bags), you can leave it as a mix if you want and just adjust the ratio if he starts to seem a bit chubby or if he doesn't run very much. I personally would do a mix of 25% Babycat and 75% Fit 32 until he's 6 or 7 months, and then switch to just Fit 32. Am I making sense?
> 
> ...


Hi FinnickHog,

Thanks for the prompt and detailed response 

I linked to the website simply because it has a decent selection of Royal Canin foods.

Yes, you're making perfect sense. I hadn't considered the Eukanuba as it isn't listed on Reaper's list. I figured that the safest starting point would be foods on the list that are also available here.

If you feel that the Eukanuba would be better for Timmy then I will gladly go for that instead of the Royal Canin. Do you feel that the Eukanuba will suffice, or should I try find something better still?

I will get those pics up asap 

Edit:

Sorry I forgot to ask - At 2 months old will he be ok eating adult sized cat pellets? The kitten ones seem more manageable for his tiny mouth.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

You are most welcome!

The Eukanuba will do, but you might be able to find something better. If you want, you can give me a list of what's available to you and I can sort through and pick out the top ones based on ingredients, protein, and fat. Up to you!

Can you also link to the food list by Reaper? I don't think I've seen it. This is my personal list but I'm in Canada and couldn't find much for South Africa: http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/foru...d-may-2016-recommended-dry-cat-food-list.html

The adult pieces should be an okay size. Mine didn't have any trouble with them. You can smack them with a hammer a bit if you're uncomfortable with the size though.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Reapers list wasn't a list of good vs bad foods, just ones that were available and common and listed information for a quick comparison. It also hasn't been updated in some time.
Most babies should be able to eat regular sized cat food. If it's a problem, you could always crush it up. 
Also if more than one decent food is available, a mix is highly recommend. It covers you from hunger strike if a food is changed or unavailable.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/12-dry-cat-food-list.html

Im pretty sure this is the list.


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

FinnickHog said:


> You are most welcome!
> 
> The Eukanuba will do, but you might be able to find something better. If you want, you can give me a list of what's available to you and I can sort through and pick out the top ones based on ingredients, protein, and fat. Up to you!
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the offer. I don't want to bog you down with my admin! I'll do the leg-work and come up with a list of suitable foods and then maybe ask you to pick out what you feel are the best options?

Here is Reaper's thread - http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/12-dry-cat-food-list.html

Smacking them with a hammer might be a good way to relieve stress. Two birds with one stone. 



twobytwopets said:


> Reapers list wasn't a list of good vs bad foods, just ones that were available and common and listed information for a quick comparison. It also hasn't been updated in some time.
> Most babies should be able to eat regular sized cat food. If it's a problem, you could always crush it up.
> Also if more than one decent food is available, a mix is highly recommend. It covers you from hunger strike if a food is changed or unavailable.


I'll definitely be going with a mix of foods. I just wanted to use Reaper's list as a starting point but I see it hasn't been updated since 2009.

Thanks for the advice!


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

The next post on reapers list is by lizardgirl. I got their lists mixed up. Reapers was good foods, Lizardgirl list was foods of varying quality. 
Reapers gives you a quick recommendation and a starting point. 
Lizardgirls list does so much footwork for you. It was the list I used when figuring my hedgehogs diet way back when. 
I'm not a person who can just go with a list of items that are good and take it for face value. I need to know why something is good or bad.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

PeregrinTook said:


> Thanks so much for the offer. I don't want to bog you down with my admin! I'll do the leg-work and come up with a list of suitable foods and then maybe ask you to pick out what you feel are the best options?


I have absolutely nothing else to do, so it's not a big deal at all. Whenever you reach a point where you need a hand or some extra input just let me know! You can post on here and a few other people will chip in too, or you can PM me. Either way works fine. I'm so bored that I just sold myself to /r/geckos on Reddit as a care sheet editor :lol:

I'm interested in which brands you can find, too, since my research for my South Africa "list" didn't turn up many that were consistently available. I'll add the good brands you find onto my food list, if that's alright.



twobytwopets said:


> The next post on reapers list is by lizardgirl. I got their lists mixed up. Reapers was good foods, Lizardgirl list was foods of varying quality.
> Reapers gives you a quick recommendation and a starting point.
> Lizardgirls list does so much footwork for you. It was the list I used when figuring my hedgehogs diet way back when.
> I'm not a person who can just go with a list of items that are good and take it for face value. I need to know why something is good or bad.


Wow, I remember this list now! I read it waaaay back when I was first thinking about getting a hedgie and before I expanded my snake collection, which meant I had to wait. Lots of good resources in there for sure! I also need to know the reasoning behind "good" and "bad" which is why I've made so many of my own lists. Curiosity eats up a lot of time but it means my pets get the best I can offer, so I think it's worth it. (And like I said, bored out of my mind!)


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

twobytwopets said:


> The next post on reapers list is by lizardgirl. I got their lists mixed up. Reapers was good foods, Lizardgirl list was foods of varying quality.
> Reapers gives you a quick recommendation and a starting point.
> Lizardgirls list does so much footwork for you. It was the list I used when figuring my hedgehogs diet way back when.
> I'm not a person who can just go with a list of items that are good and take it for face value. I need to know why something is good or bad.


I'm exactly the same, however I do realise that my knowledge is very limited when compared to most people on this forum.



FinnickHog said:


> I have absolutely nothing else to do, so it's not a big deal at all. Whenever you reach a point where you need a hand or some extra input just let me know! You can post on here and a few other people will chip in too, or you can PM me. Either way works fine. I'm so bored that I just sold myself to /r/geckos on Reddit as a care sheet editor :lol:
> 
> I'm interested in which brands you can find, too, since my research for my South Africa "list" didn't turn up many that were consistently available. I'll add the good brands you find onto my food list, if that's alright.
> 
> Wow, I remember this list now! I read it waaaay back when I was first thinking about getting a hedgie and before I expanded my snake collection, which meant I had to wait. Lots of good resources in there for sure! I also need to know the reasoning behind "good" and "bad" which is why I've made so many of my own lists. Curiosity eats up a lot of time but it means my pets get the best I can offer, so I think it's worth it. (And like I said, bored out of my mind!)


Perfect, I'll do some research on the foods available in SA and will post my findings. I also enjoy finding out as much as I can about things that are important to me, hence this thread.

Judging by your signature, I take it that you're quite the animal collector?

This is the food that the pet store sold us before he had arrived. http://www.propacultimates.com/cat-food/savanna-pride/

I'm not sure about all the chemicals? Can I please get your opinion?


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Powdered cellulose, ingredient # 8 on that list, is on the list of additives to avoid here: http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/foru...3034-beginner-s-guide-hedgehog-nutrition.html. Other than that, I've seen worse ingredients lists but I've definitely seen better ones, too. Is that what he's eating now? You'll have to wean him off whatever he's eating gradually so his tummy doesn't get upset. It'll work for now but I'd definitely switch it as soon as you can.

The additives other than the cellulose seem alright. That stuff is all added in to (in theory) balance the vitamins and minerals in the food so that it's optimal for cats (or hedgehogs) to eat and get everything they need. I see iron, manganese, lots of B vitamins, calcium, zinc, vitamins A and D3, all sorts of stuff that's necessary. When you feed a fresh raw diet that stuff is already in the ingredients. If you grind up a T bone steak for example you get calcium from the bones, fat from the fatty pockets, iron, zinc, selenium, vitamin B12 and a few others from the meat, etcetera. If it's processed or low quality steak some of the vitamins are lost in the process and need to be added back in. That's what that long list of stuff at the bottom is.

Haha yeah I have 24 pets right now. 7 lizards, 7 amphibians, 4 snakes, 1 hedgehog, 1 dog, 1 parrot, 2 fish, 1 pistol shrimp.


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

FinnickHog said:


> Powdered cellulose, ingredient # 8 on that list, is on the list of additives to avoid here: http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/foru...3034-beginner-s-guide-hedgehog-nutrition.html. Other than that, I've seen worse ingredients lists but I've definitely seen better ones, too. Is that what he's eating now? You'll have to wean him off whatever he's eating gradually so his tummy doesn't get upset. It'll work for now but I'd definitely switch it as soon as you can.
> 
> The additives other than the cellulose seem alright. That stuff is all added in to (in theory) balance the vitamins and minerals in the food so that it's optimal for cats (or hedgehogs) to eat and get everything they need. I see iron, manganese, lots of B vitamins, calcium, zinc, vitamins A and D3, all sorts of stuff that's necessary. When you feed a fresh raw diet that stuff is already in the ingredients. If you grind up a T bone steak for example you get calcium from the bones, fat from the fatty pockets, iron, zinc, selenium, vitamin B12 and a few others from the meat, etcetera. If it's processed or low quality steak some of the vitamins are lost in the process and need to be added back in. That's what that long list of stuff at the bottom is.
> 
> Haha yeah I have 24 pets right now. 7 lizards, 7 amphibians, 4 snakes, 1 hedgehog, 1 dog, 1 parrot, 2 fish, 1 pistol shrimp.


Thank you!

Yes, that's the food he's eating now. I want to transition him onto better foods asap but I also don't want to wean him onto the Eukanuba only to find better food a week later.

These food ingredient lists are pretty daunting for the average Joe like myself. Who knew so many ingredients could be packed into such tiny pellets.

24 pets :-? You must be taking care of them 24/7!!


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

That makes sense. No point switching him only to switch him again.

There's a surprising number of ingredients in every piece of kibble. It's definitely overwhelming to start out but it does get easier with practice.

Caring for them takes up a lot of my day. I have a pretty tight schedule with them and that helps a lot but someone always has to poop in their water dish or decide they're not hungry on feeding day, so it keeps me on my toes :lol:.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Ingredient list are daunting, even for experienced owners. As with everything it gets easier with practice, but it's still a lot to take in. I have no doubt that is can be more difficult when there are limited options. We are hard pressed to make any suggestions because we don't know what is available for you


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

FinnickHog said:


> That makes sense. No point switching him only to switch him again.
> 
> There's a surprising number of ingredients in every piece of kibble. It's definitely overwhelming to start out but it does get easier with practice.
> 
> Caring for them takes up a lot of my day. I have a pretty tight schedule with them and that helps a lot but someone always has to poop in their water dish or decide they're not hungry on feeding day, so it keeps me on my toes :lol:.


I I pace. .,,, pm, pm,

Sent from my Redmi Note 2 using Tapatalk


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

PeregrinTook said:


> I I pace. .,,, pm, pm,
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Note 2 using Tapatalk


Not sure how to delete a post. I somehow managed to type this in my pocket :???:



twobytwopets said:


> Ingredient list are daunting, even for experienced owners. As with everything it gets easier with practice, but it's still a lot to take in. I have no doubt that is can be more difficult when there are limited options. We are hard pressed to make any suggestions because we don't know what is available for you


Indeed, they are rather daunting! I've put together a list of commonly available foods and some that are less well known. I'll PM you the link to the spreadsheet


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

I replied to your message, basically figuring out what the goals are aside from feed a hedgehog. To keep the conversation moving here I'll post them here so the goals are known. 
I asked about activity level, age and general body condition. 

Also, we don't get to delete posts. You also can't edit after 5 minutes I believe. Reason for that is, we need to be accountable for what we say. If we could delete or edit after a period of time, someone could say something in anger and get responses, but then edit what they said and it would appear they were innocent. It's also why we try and correct bad information as opposed to editing it out.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

"I I pace. .,,, pm, pm,"

I dunno, I kind of like it. Sounds like postmodernist poetry. :lol:


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

It's a hedgie haiku! 
So far, I've taken the list provided of 78 foods and narrowed it down to 26. 
First foods were eliminated based on fat over 20%. Yes, that's higher than recommended but, with limited options and you are planning on a mix, we have a little wiggle room. 
All the foods listed were good on protein, so my next step was removing any that list the first ingredient as a non named meat. Either grains or the generic term of "poultry"
An option that hadn't been discussed as of yet, is the possibility of having a dog food in the mix. The reason I bring this up is if once I check full ingredient lists is will we have any left, or will it be enough to make a mix out of.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

The only ones on there I really love are the Acana and Orijen. I admittedly had to drop my standards a bit to allow some of the Hills and some of the Royal Canin formulas to pass. That selection sucks!


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

For me, it's still a work in progress as kids are still asleep. I haven't found one that I love, but the trick may be finding one that will pass might be the new goal. For me, I have to do it step by step, so if need be we can take a step back.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

I hate Iams, I hate Nutrience, I don't really like Eukanuba, Hills is crap after the first few ingredients but doesn't seem to have anything dangerous in some formulas, some of the Royal Canin formulas are on the very low end of tolerable, and a few of the Hills ones are crap but better than the other stuff. Ugh. And then like you said, the Acana and Orijen are both 20% fat, which is too high on its own.

Acana makes a lower fat dog kibble... Light & Fit. Is there any chance you can get that where you are?

Ingredients:
Fresh chicken meat (16%), chicken meal (14%), turkey meal (14%), red lentils, whole green peas, pea fiber, fresh chicken giblets (liver, heart, kidney) (5%), herring meal (5%), fresh whole eggs (4%), fresh whole flounder, (4%), sun-cured alfalfa (4%), field beans (4%), green lentils, whole yellow peas, chicken fat (1%), herring oil, (1%), fresh chicken cartilage (1%), dried brown kelp, fresh whole pumpkin, fresh whole butternut squash, fresh whole parsnips, fresh kale, fresh spinach, fresh mustard greens, fresh turnip greens, fresh whole carrots, fresh red delicious apples, fresh Bartlett pears, freeze-dried chicken liver, freeze-dried turkey liver, fresh whole cranberries, fresh whole blueberries, chicory root, turmeric, milk thistle, burdock root, lavender, marshmallow root, rose hips, enterococcus faecium.

Protein: 35%
Fat: 11%
Fiber: 8%

And that would be good to mix with the higher fat Acana or Orijen but you have to break it up. The kibbles are about 1.5cm and ovaloid. Finnick ate it when I gave it to him but I got tired of crushing it pretty fast.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

This is my narrowing down process. 
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B718uCsT9DtNRGcxR1Y5VUlkZGM/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=msexcel


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

I completely missed your responses in the thread, my apoligies.

Yes, it appears that Acana dog food is also available here. - https://www.petplus.co.za/collections/acana-dog-food?gclid=COCNpeyOwM0CFQPgGwodC_QBuA

This is all rather bleak. I know there are tons of hedgehog owners in SA, and the information I've received regarding nutrition from the two breeders I've spoken to has been contradictory.

Edit:

I've just contacted some local pet stores and there is one that stocks Acana, so I don't even have to order online


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Also is the selection in the stores themselves any better?


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

twobytwopets said:


> Also is the selection in the stores themselves any better?


I have never been to the store that stocks Acana, but I'm hoping it may be. I will check it out this weekend and advise accordingly.


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Definitely make a list of foods as you go! Hopefully there are some more options there for you.

If you can find any small breed, weight control or low fat dog foods take a look at those. The pieces are usually smaller and you wouldn't have to smash them up.

Let us know what you find! I'm going in for a minor surgery in a few hours so I may be a bit more absent than usual the next few days but I'll make sure to check in at least once on the weekend.


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

FinnickHog said:


> Definitely make a list of foods as you go! Hopefully there are some more options there for you.
> 
> If you can find any small breed, weight control or low fat dog foods take a look at those. The pieces are usually smaller and you wouldn't have to smash them up.
> 
> Let us know what you find! I'm going in for a minor surgery in a few hours so I may be a bit more absent than usual the next few days but I'll make sure to check in at least once on the weekend.


I will do so. Thanks again for all the advice.

Good luck for the surgery, I wish you a speed recovery!


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## FinnickHog (Dec 1, 2014)

Thanks so much! I'm sure I won't be away for long.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Is it possible to order food online?
We have the same sad quality foods available here (well there is higher quality, but it's not suitable for hedgehogs due to the high fat/protein contents) so I order mine online. They're all Canadian or US brands and I use 2 dog foods mixed with a a cat food. I grind it down to make the pieces smaller which works fine.


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

Thanks for the suggestion, Draenog. I'm sure that ordering from international online stores is possible, however our postal system is pretty much useless. Anything that is sent via our postal service is either lost, damaged, or takes months to arrive. We rely on courier companies these days and the exorbitant shipping costs would be unaffordable.

Even Amazon no longer ships most of their products to South Africa  I would much rather have quick and easy access to his food whenever I need it.

With the fantastic help of Finnick and Twobytwo, I have managed to narrow down the best foods available, and I'm comfortable with what I'll be feeding Timmy. It might not meet international standards, but for what's available it will have to suffice.



Draenog said:


> Is it possible to order food online?
> We have the same sad quality foods available here (well there is higher quality, but it's not suitable for hedgehogs due to the high fat/protein contents) so I order mine online. They're all Canadian or US brands and I use 2 dog foods mixed with a a cat food. I grind it down to make the pieces smaller which works fine.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

I didn't mean international online stores. I buy my foods at online stores based here, they sometimes sell UK/US/Canadian brands. I thought maybe there are online stores in SA too which sell brands from overseas.


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## PeregrinTook (Jun 13, 2016)

Ah, I misunderstood. I've looked at a bunch of online stores and unfortunately they all stock the same brands that I have found at brick & mortar stores. 



Draenog said:


> I didn't mean international online stores. I buy my foods at online stores based here, they sometimes sell UK/US/Canadian brands. I thought maybe there are online stores in SA too which sell brands from overseas.


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## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

That's a shame. I guess you'll just have to make do with what's available there. It might be a good idea to add lots of fresh foods like live insects (should be done no matter the quality of the kibble imo, but is even more important with lesser quality)


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