# Moving: Japan to Canada



## Nicolas

Hello everyone,

Last week I started this thread about finding a new family for my hedgehog:
http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/16-rescue/126265-might-need-new-family.html

However, since I have decided to keep him after moving to Canada, I thought this would be a more appropriate space for a new thread, since this is now about travel advice.

First, some background info about my pet:
I did not buy him in a store, but received him from a friend in Summer of 2013 when he was a baby. I am not sure what variety of hedgehog he is exactly, and I am wondering if someone could help me to identify him based on these images:










Based on some internet research, I believe he may be of the African variety, but I'm not sure. Apparently, I will need a special pet passport, called CITES, to be able to bring him over. So I'd like to be able to tell them exactly what kind of hedgehog he is when I apply. I will be making the phone call this week.

I will also contact the AQS in Japan (animal quarantine service) to know if he must undergo a medical inspection before leaving; however, according to this page
http://www.maff.go.jp/aqs/english/animal/other.html
that may not be necessary when leaving from Japan, though it may be required once we arrive in Canada. (again, I need to make some phone calls because I'm not sure yet).

I am hoping to leave before the end of March, so that I will not have to pay the rent for April. This does not give me much time, so I think I need to hurry up and get things sorted out ASAP.

As for the logistics of the trip, I currently have this box:










But I was told in another thread that it would not be enough, and I tend to agree. FinnickHog recommended something like this:










So I'm going to look into buying one of those this month. The clerk advised me that it should not be too big. 
I also bought some heat pads that look like this:










They last for 20 hours. I will test them to see whether they lose strength towards the end of the 20 hours period; if not, they should last long enough to make sure that he doesn't get cold during the trip! The store clerk told me that I should tape one underneath the box, and two on the walls. Apparently, you don't want to overdo it because he might get too hot.

The plan: tape the pads onto the box, stuff the box full of towels/blankets (for safety), and hope it all goes well! I'll be honest, I would have prefered for him to be with me in the cabin, but if it has to be the cargo, that's fine too. I'd be very worried though... is that space usually heated? Because we'll be in April, so if it's not heated, it might get cold despite the heating pads... but then I won't even be able to know, so I'll be unable to add more pads if it's too cold!!!
I'm really worried about that part...

I will be going to Montreal, so I will require a connecting flight. As recommended, I will avoid going through the US since that would only add an extra step. 
But I'm still worried that I'll be stuck at the airport in Vancouver, waiting for quarantine to clear, for 24+ hours... how long does quarantine usually last? By that time, my pet will not have eaten or drank for a long time, and will most likely be dirty with poop and pee! I don't want him to be traumatized from the trip!!!

Any other advice would be greatly appreciated! 
Thanks everyone!


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## shinydistraction

Well, I can help a little bit. Your hedgehog is an African Pygmy Hedgehog. There are really only two varieties kept as pets, the APH and the long eared hedgehogs (that's probably not their actual name). You'd know if you have the other variety. 

For the heat packs, I would try to make little fabric (fleece is probably best) pouches to put them in so you hedgehog can't touch them directly. 

Honestly, given how horrible airlines tend to be with animal passengers, I would contact all the possible airlines you might be using and see which ones will allow you to keep him in the cabin with you. If he's put in cargo he could wind up on a different flight entirely, and if that happens that flight could be delayed and it might be hours before you find out what happens to him. I imagine it will be a pretty long flight also, so he's definitely going to relieve himself and it will be best if you're there to clean him up so he's not sitting in his filth.

I would take with you in a separate carry on extra fleece, paper towels (or toilet paper just to save space), extra heat packs, some food, and a couple of small non breakable bowls to offer food and water.

I would also give him plenty of time to relieve himself before you leave for the airport. Just to limit the mess. Also, make sure the carrier you buy will fit underneath the seat on the plane as that will probably be the only way you'll be able to bring him in the cabin.

I wish I could help you more! Good luck with your planning and the travel. Keep us posted on how things are going


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## Nicolas

Ah, a little pouch for the heat pads is a good idea! I will get to work on that ASAP! You think that putting them inside the cage, wrapped in fabric, would be better than taping them underneath the cage and on the walls? I was planning on taping the pads _outside_ the cage, so that it would cause the floor/walls to be heated, but since the pads would be on the outside, he wouldn't be able to mess with them.
I could do both, and put some inside the cage as well though.

Are airlines really that terrible with animals??? Now I'm scared... Ok, I'll try to find a way to keep him in the cabin with me.

As for letting him relieve himself before the trip, I'm afraid I really have no control over that! He usually does his business at night (this is why leaving in the morning would be best), I can't really do anything to compel him to go when I want him to... so, for him sitting in his filth, I will try my best to make sure that it doesn't happen, but that might be out of my control also!

I'm afraid it would also be the same for forcing him to eat/drink... he always does that when it's dark, when nobody's around. If I turn on the light, he stops, hides, and only tries again after I switch off the lights! 
I suppose if he's hungry or thirsty enough, he might eat whatever I put in front of him at the time though. Mhhh... I really need to think this through. It's so scary because so many things could go wrong!!!


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## shinydistraction

Yep! It's a rough thing to travel with pets, forget about going to a completely different country!

I find that if I have to wake my girl up at an odd hour she'll likely do her business shortly after I get her up. Especially if I can get her to walk around a bit. It may or may not work, but if you can get him up earlier than you might have otherwise, he might potty for you, which I'm sure will be a relief. 

I wouldn't really expect him to eat or drink much on the trip honestly. Likely he'll either be asleep or scared. But when you have good opportunities, you should at least offer some food and water. You never know. Put some food in a ziplock baggy so you can put it back in and reseal it if he doesn't want it. You'll be able to get water once you're past security and I'm sure they'll offer it on the flight also. But if you get a bottle of water at the airport, if he doesn't want it, you can pour the water back in.

You hear lots of horror stories of people flying with their animals. There have been plenty of dogs and cats that did not make it to their destination alive. There are even more that arrived, but covered in filth and soaking wet because they were not given a chance to relieve themselves. Often they won't get fed and watered, if they're even checked on at all. It's honestly kind of hard to blame the airline completely. Cargo holds were never intended for live animals. And the people that load luggage on to the planes are expected to get it done fast. Safely loading animals just takes time they don't have. Should the airlines be able to deliver on their promise to keep your animals safe? Absolutely. But looking at it from a realistic perspective, it's just not something I would risk if it were my pet. And those are the things that happen to hardier, easier to keep animals like dogs and cats. I can't imagine an animal with specific temperature requirements going through that. I'm sure there are people that have had nothing but good experiences flying their animals, but again, I would not personally take the risk.


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## Nicolas

Woah... ok then, I'll be sure to find one that lets me keep him with me. Thanks a lot for the advice!


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## shinydistraction

Lol, sorry, I didn't mean to scare you! But the idea sure scares me!


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## Nicolas

Well, better be safe than sorry.
Now that I think about it, I wonder if, instead of taking him with me, I wonder if there exists some kind of shipping service, made especially for pets, that could send him over for me? I could even send him before I go myself, and ask my mom to pick him up...

A thing like that would probably be ideal. Assuming I can't find a way to keep him with me, I'm really scared about him being in the cargo space... I guess I could secure a lot of soft material all over the inner walls of the cage, and stuff it as full as soft blankets as possible so he can freely play at digging through them, or just sleep. As long as there is nothing but soft surfaces in the box, surely it can't be that dangerous...?
He could even go to another area to do his toilet business, then go to a different space to go back to sleep...


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## Nicolas

Just went to the dollar store and bought some needles and thread. 
Then I cut up an old T-Shirt and made this:










Insert heating pad, tie at the top, and there you go! I can even put 2 heating pads in there.
Now to make a whole bunch more of these, and hopefully that'll do the trick for warmth!


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## shinydistraction

Once you decide to test the longevity of the heat packs, I would stick them in the carrier the way you want it set up for the trip and put your digital thermometer in there so you can see where it gets to temp wise.


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## shinydistraction

Oh! And be sure to turn those inside out so he can't get to the stitching


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## FinnickHog

There are animal shipping services available. Most are companies that work as a middleman between the customer and the airline. Some are quite good at what they do, but it could be expensive. In the pet reptile world, people often team up to go in together on orders to decrease the shipping costs.

A friend of mine once had their small dog placed on the baggage carousel. It came down the 45 degree chute, through the plastic flaps and dropped onto the carousel. It broke a leg in the fall. Airlines really don't care much about your pet, sadly, and cargo staff aren't paid very well.

Westjet has always been very cautious with my pets. I wouldn't trust Air Canada with a potato.


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## Draenog

Your hedgehog is an "African pygmy hedgehog", scientific name Atelerix albiventris, if you need to be even more specific you can mention four-toed or whitebellied hedgehog. 

Make sure to find out if he needs to be quarantined in Canada, or if it's just an inspection. Depending on the country quarantine can be up to 6 months (sometimes even longer).

I agree with getting the sturdiest travel crate possible, although it should still have enough ventilation. Not sure if that second one you posted is to "open". It might not hold in heat very well. 
Contact your airline to see what temps the various areas are. They'll probably know best. Cabin would be best obviously but it's not always possible. I have no personal experience in flying with animals but maybe you could get a hold of an exporter/importer who does?

As for the heat pads, depending on how hot they get it might be better to tape them to the outside of the crate. But then you'll be at risk of losing them if you don't fasten them well enough. And make sure the heat pad doesn't cover the entire bottom and sides so your hedgehog can chose where he wants to sleep in case it is too hot.


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## Nicolas

6 MONTHS??? How would that even work? They have folks that take care of people's pets for 6 months and you can't even get to see your pet for that duration? Would he even remember me after such a long time?

I'll be sure to ask about that... darn, you guys, this is some scary stuff.


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## shinydistraction

Hopefully it won't be so bad as 6 months. I can't imagine going from one developed country to another having such a lengthy quarantine unless there's a known issue in that particular species from that particular place. But I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a few days. Just to be safe, I would include a detailed care sheet with his carrier in the event you're separated from him for more than a few hours. Maybe it will only be an inspection if you can get it documented that he was healthy when you left? I wish I knew!


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## Nicolas

I was thinking about doing this at the end of March, but now I'm thinking about rescheduling for June, since it would be warm and at least I wouldn't have to worry about heating problems..

Plus, end of March seems like a short notice to gather all the documents that I might need. Man, what a headache..

I will be sure to ask how to minimize the risks of quarantine though.


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## FinnickHog

The lady who went from Canada to Japan recently just needed a vet check. No quarantine. Hopefully it's the same in the other direction. I don't think pet mammals get quarantined that often sonce they're usually captive bred and born. Reptiles on the other hand can get that 6 month one.


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## Nicolas

I just found the application I need to fill...
http://www.ec.gc.ca/cites/05BFDC16-...1413B/application_pet_passport - feb 2014.pdf

Note the part in red:









WHAT! In other words, I need to get him tattooed or chipped first before I can even apply for this?

It also asks the date and location of the port of entry in Canada. In other words, I need to:

1. _Buy my plane ticket first so I'll know the date and airports,_

2. _Apply for this and wait for 40 days_

3. _If refused, I have to start all over again, and *CANCEL MY PLANE TICKET* because I can't just leave him here!
_

What kind of madness is this! It's completely backwards, I should be able to apply FIRST, then I get my plane ticket IF ACCEPTED!!! Guys this is a complete nightmare and I feel like I'm about to cry, I'm stuck in this country because my own country doesn't have any common sense with their application process!!! IT MAKES NO SENSE! UGH!!!


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## FinnickHog

You can get him microchipped if absolutely necessary. My parrot has one. I would call the department directly though and explain that the animal you want to bring is a hedgehog, which don't get bands, microchips, or tattoos, and which process they suggest. Mention that he has unique markings that can be identified. Hopefully you get someone helpful. At this point it seems like shipping him separately would be a better option.


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## Nicolas

Yeah I found a phone number for the Canadian WildLife Service.
http://travel.gc.ca/assistance/questions#EC

Just tried calling, but at this hour, of course they were closed. I'm gonna call again later tonight (when it'll be day time for them) and explain the entire situation. Also tried e-mail, but I'd much rather talk to somebody.
Hopefully they'll be able to tell me exactly what to do.

Seems like I'm gonna be stuck here until at least Summer though. Unless they tell me "_You don't need CITES for a hedgehog! Just buy your plane ticket and you're good!_"... hah, if only.

How much does it cost to get a pet microchipped? What about an arm band or a tattoo? Are those methods less invasive? Especially if it's just a band I can put on and take off...


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## FinnickHog

The banding thing is for birds. The breeder slips it on a chick before their feet grow and as the bird gets older the band ends up stuck around the "ankle". Importers use open bands that can be clamped onto an adult bird leg, but these can be removed and altered and therefore aren't really trusted.

I have no idea if anyone will tattoo a hedgehog, but if they will it should only be 3000 yen or so. It will go on the inside of one ear.

Microchipping is the most reliable. I always manage to line pet purchases up with microchip sales at the vet, so I have no idea what full price is. Likely between $50-$80 CAD.

I honestly don't think you need actual CITIES paperwork for a hedgehog. That's usually reserved for endangered or threatened species that have an export limit on them. My poison dart frogs are CITIES registered. So hopefully you can skip that step or there's a shortcut for non-reptilian exotics.


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## Nicolas

> *I honestly don't think you need actual CITIES paperwork for a hedgehog.* That's usually reserved for endangered or threatened species that have an export limit on them. My poison dart frogs are CITIES registered. So hopefully you can skip that step or there's a shortcut for non-reptilian exotics.


If you are right, that would be a huge relief because it would mean I could leave in March or April most likely. I'm gonna keep trying to call that number and hopefully I can get a clear answer on that tonight.
Again everyone, thanks a lot for the help.


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## FinnickHog

So this is a list of what specifically qualifies for CITES paperwork according to the Canadian government (I added the bold text):

CITES Appendices
2. Animals and plants are placed into one of three categories; their placement is made on the basis of the degree to which the species is considered endangered. These categories are shown as Appendices to the Convention and are listed according to the following criteria:

*(a) Appendix I - species threatened with extinction worldwide that are or may be affected by trade;
(b) Appendix II - species not yet threatened with extinction but which could become so if international trade continues without restriction;
(c) Appendix III - Species included in the Appendix at the request of a Party that regulates trade in those species and has requested assistance of all other CITES Parties in controlling the trade.*

(reference: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d19/d19-7-1-eng.html)

Also, I found that fish and insects are closely monitored, but our domestic African hedgehogs aren't on any "controlled" lists.

(reference: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/guidanc...85/1374161737236?gp=1&gc=30&ga=35#gdr_results)

I'm still scouring that last reference link, and trying to work out how the "Automated Import Reference System" works. When I put in hedgehog from (Asia->Japan) traveling to Canada it says "F you" which isn't very polite, but it seems to think that I mean a wild Japanese species of hedgehog. Silly system. I'll try their scientific name and see what happens...

Here's the lovely AIRS link: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals...imports/airs/eng/1300127512994/1326599273148#

So I entered "Chinchillas" because I knew it would assume domesticated. Here's the result: (sorry I had to copy/paste it. The site is a bit.... unpleasant to work with.)

Import Details for Requirement : 20198 Version : 6

HS Description : 010619
01Live animals
06Other live animals
19Other mammals

OGD Extension : 206938
2069Rodents
38Chinchillas

Origin : JP
ASAsia
JPJapan

Recommendations to CBSA/Documentation and Registration Requirements

Approved
Importer / Broker Instructions

DOCUMENTATION INSTRUCTIONS

No certification is required.

There are NO ANIMAL HEALTH REQUIREMENTS.


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## Nicolas

When I searched "hedgehog" with "Asian/Japan" as the country of origin, it gave me this:










WTF? Does it mean that it's absolutely impossible?


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## FinnickHog

That's exactly what I get. But I think it thinks we want to import a wild caught Japanese hedgehog, which we do not. The database has sections for "mice" and "domesticated mice" as well as "rats" and "domesticated rats." The domesticated types say yes and the other ones say "refuse entry." And the ferret section is split between species to make it easy to import a pet ferret, and not a wild one. But they seem to have forgotten to include African pygmy hedgehogs in their database. Their scientific name doesn't even register.

If you go here, can you get the form to open? http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals...t-application/eng/1374511671189/1374511696513 The link is broken for me, but it's likely the form you need. *sigh*


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## Nicolas

Yeah, when clicking the form, it says that the PDF viewer is unable to see the document... thanks a lot, canadian government!

Is this supposed to be the same as a CITES passport? Or easier to obtain and less hoops to jump through?

I'm gonna head to bed now, I asked my folks to try and contact Environement Canada today, because every time I call there's no answer (probably too early) and the answer box is full. I might try again later if I wake up during the night! Or I'll just wait for my parents to do it... it's kind of expensive for me to call that number repeatedly!


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## FinnickHog

It should be much easier to get than CITES. CITES is a royal pain in the butt.

Now here's a question: are you still a Canadian citizen? If so, I would actually call the Canada Border Services Agency:
From outside Canada, *call 204-983-3500 or 506-636-5064* (long distance charges will apply). Agents are available Monday to Friday during office hours (08:00 to 16:00 local time / except holidays).

(reference: http://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/pub/bsf5056-eng.html#s6)

If you call fish and wildlife, they're going to be all concerned that Spartacus is a wild caught hedgie and throw a temper tantrum. They're awful people to deal with, and they don't give a crap about your pets. They nearly killed every dart frog in Alberta last April because some doofus changed a law without consulting any specialists about the toxicity of captive bred and born Dendrobates frogs. (Pro tip: they aren't toxic in captivity. Yes I'm still mad.)

_So_ I would highly suggest the Border Control guys or even the Food Inspection Agency, who does deal with live animal imports as well. If you're a Canadian citizen they'll be super nice to you.

FIA Website: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/terrestrial-animals/eng/1300386686425/1300387824030


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## Nicolas

Mhh, I just tried both these numbers, and was unable to get anything more than a menu prompting me to select one of several options... none of which had anything to do with what I wanted. There was no option to actually talk to somebody by staying on the line.
If all else fails, I'll try going to the embassy in Tokyo this week. I think I'll have time to go on Wednesday.


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## FinnickHog

Seriously, are pet hedgehogs that uncommon? You can bring your pet jerboa or camel but not your hedgehog according to this AIRS database. I'll keep looking for more information. Have a good night!


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## FinnickHog

Food Inspection Agency number: (Importing pets is in the list of things people call about, and look, they have a 1-800 number!) 1-800-442-2342 / 1-613-773-2342

Website to submit a question to the CFIA via the internet: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/about-the-cfia/contact-us/eng/1299860523723/1299860643049

This CITES form is simpler and doesn't absolutely require a tattoo or microchip. http://www.ec.gc.ca/cites/05BFDC16-0E81-4E0E-A13C-FCAB08D1413B/application_animals - feb 2014.pdf It looks like you can skip the family tree section in 6B if you mark him off in section 6C as a purchase. There's also a check box in section 4 for "Personal" which means you don't have to fill out any of the sections on breeding. This one might just work...


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## Nicolas

GOT TO TALK TO A PERSON!!!

Had to press "0" on the menu! They didn't give that option in the menu, those sly dogs! The lady gave me another number to call. Gonna call now.


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## FinnickHog

Yaaaaaay! Maybe you won't need my shiny CITES form after all!

I just searched the monstrosity that is the CITES appendices and Atelerix albiventris isn't on the list. I think the internet is making you jump through hoops that don't exist.

(Reference: https://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php)


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## Nicolas

Alright, so I got to talk to somebody at the number: 1-613-773-2342

The news aren't good. The lady told me that according to her computer that she was looking at, it is *impossible to bring over a hedgehog from japan.*
I made sure to specify that this wasn't some wild Japanese hedgehog, but in fact, an African Pygmy Hedgehog. Still, she told me that this is apparently the way it is.

However, she said that it might be possible if I talked to the veterinarian.
She gave me the number: 514-283-8888 (but I was transfered automatically). She also gave me an extension, 52-53, though that didn't work when I entered it. So I just kept picking the option that said "for immediate help, press (number)". Eventually, I was taken to a message box, where I left a message, though, obviously, I didn't ask for them to call me back since I'm in Japan. I did spell out my e-mail address though, so hopefully they'll get in touch with me that way...

But honestly... I'm getting discouraged... after what the first person told me, which matches the "entry refused" result that we got earlier from that web site... it seems that it might be impossible after all. 
I will be absolutely heart broken if that is the case... I don't want to leave him here, in a shelter or otherwise... but I don't want to stay here, either... god, why is it so complicated!!!


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## Nicolas

I finally talked with a very helpful person who FINALLY got things moving!!! She said that, even with "entry refused", it's possible to get a special permission, and that it takes a few weeks for the request to be processed in that case, and they will determine the conditions like whether there will be a quarantine, or if I need to do some other things.

In other words... there is hope, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!!! Phew!


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## FinnickHog

Welcome to dealing with the Canadian government. Unfortunately, she was probably using the same database to check her information as we were. You can try that form I found, or go to the embassy and see what they can do for you. They seem to have not even considered pet hedgehogs when they made this legislation. Yet ferrets have their own section and I'd say they're about as common.

I don't know. I'm still looking but I think we've found everything except that one broken form at this point. Which is still probably the one you need. I've got another 40 minutes before I can call my vet's office about my dog, so I'll be digging around for hedgehog import info until then. When I go in to the vet (probably later today, no wait times in towns with multiple vet clinics!) if I get the veterinarian who does hedgehogs I'll ask her if she knows anything, or where else we can check.

We need to quit posting at the same time! :lol: That's excellent news! I'll definitely ask my vet what she knows about special permissions and how often they're granted.


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## Draenog

shinydistraction said:


> Hopefully it won't be so bad as 6 months. I can't imagine going from one developed country to another having such a lengthy quarantine unless there's a known issue in that particular species from that particular place. But I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a few days. Just to be safe, I would include a detailed care sheet with his carrier in the event you're separated from him for more than a few hours. Maybe it will only be an inspection if you can get it documented that he was healthy when you left? I wish I knew!


Really depends on the country. UK has a 6 month quarantine, even if I were to take a hedgehog there from my country, which is another developed country basically "next" to them. It is less than an hour by plane from my city to London.

Needing them to be chipped is quite common I believe, although it isn't always needed for every species, so it's worth asking them if a hedgehog needs to be chipped too.

As far as I know you don't need CITES for APH.



Nicolas said:


> When I searched "hedgehog" with "Asian/Japan" as the country of origin, it gave me this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WTF? Does it mean that it's absolutely impossible?


No, but this is probably what the people on the phone told you as well - see the text underneath "Importer/broker instructions".

_DOCUMENTATION INSTRUCTIONS

The import of these animals from this/these countries is currently prohibited. A risk assessment may be required before the development of import conditions could be considered. If you wish more information on the risk assessment process, please contact your nearest CFIA Import Office._


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## Nicolas

A bit of an update:

The veterinarian lady I spoke to yesterday e-mailed me, and told me that I should get in contact with an organization called ACAI at [email protected]

There is also a phone number (1-855-212-7695) but they would be closed at this time, so I will try to call them later. For now I've sent them an e-mail, and they're supposed to contact me to tell me the steps I need to do to get the process started.

The lady I spoke to seemed to think that it'll be possible, but we just need to follow the right steps to make it happen. So I'm pretty hopeful at this point!


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## shinydistraction

Sheesh, I go to bed, wake up, go to work, come home and all this happens! This whole thing was a roller coaster! 

I'm so glad that so far things are looking up!


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## Nicolas

Just talked to the ACIA person.
He told me that when it says "entry refused", there is basically nothing at all that they can do 
Usually, those decisions are taken when certain animals from certain countries tend to carry some diseases or bacterias. I asked if it was possible to take a test at the veterinarian's office, to ensure that he did not carry any diseases or bacterias... unfortunately, it seems like this is not possible either.

However, he said that he will talk with specialists, and I gave him my mom's phone number in Canada, and my e-mail address. So, the next thing he'll do after getting some information will be to talk to my mom and e-mail me.

However, when I asked him his personal opinion, he said that it was very unlikely that this would change, and that unfortunately, he was really sorry, but there was nothing he or anyone could do 

Darn... I just don't know what to do anymore. I don't want to get separated from him, and I just don't trust anyone else to take care of him well if I go. I guess it looks like I'll be staying in Japan for the next couple of years...


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## Nicolas

OK, so Canada is apparently out...
what about the US? Is it allowed for a Japanese hedgehog to enter the US? And, if so, is there any way that I could have him shipped to a trusted member of this community in the US, using an animal shipping service, if anyone is willing to take him?
Just thought I'd throw the idea out there...


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## FinnickHog

That's a whole new can of worms. I'll see what I can find.


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## Nicolas

Right now there is also another possibility.

I've contacted an NPO animal shelter that is at a bit of a distance from where I live, but I wouldn't mind going there to bring Spartacus if they accept. I'm going to try and contact them by phone today.

The owner seems to be from the UK, and based on her website and messages, I get a good vibe that she genuinely loves animals, and can be trusted. 
However, she told me that they are specialized in dogs and cats, not hedgehogs, and they do not have experience with animals that require constant warm temperatures like a hedgehog... (more trust points for honesty)... 
*She said, however, that if all else fails, they could take him.*

This is what I want to discuss/offer:

-I will donate a new cage, (have it delivered to them)
-I will buy a new wheel for them (the one advertised on Hedgehog central's main page, it looks better than what I have anyway, and I'll have it delivered to their address directly also)
-I will donate all necessary accessories to keep him warm (heater, electric warm pad to put under the cage, etc), and bring him to their facilities myself (300$ train ticket to go and come back, but I don't even care at this point)

They aren't in Tokyo, but a countryside-type area. So I'm worried as to whether they will be able to find hedgehog food. However, I think that hedgehogs can also eat food that is made for adult cats (right?), so I'll let them know about that. They have many cats, so I assume they have lots of cat food as well.

If we can sort out all the things that need to be discussed, this seems like the best option at the moment. Don't get me wrong, my heart is broken that I'm thinking about separating from my Spartacus, but I'll at least be happy knowing that he's in a good place with people that can take care of him...

Just got an e-mail from the lady, so I'm gonna go check and reply. Let you guys know how it turns out.


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## Nicolas

Just talked with the refuge's owner on the phone right now.
According to her, they would be able to take him. They also have an office in Tokyo, and might be able to find a good family to take care of him, even. They seem to have a good network of people. If not, they could just keep him at their offices (either the far one, or the Tokyo one), in the same room that they keep the Guinea pig (but separately, of course).

And if they find a family, I'll be able to meet with them and see for myself whether I think they are appropriate for him.


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## FinnickHog

That sounds like a pretty nice place for him. That's so cool that you'd be able to meet any potential families first.

As for shipping Spartacus from Japan to the USA, it seems possible, but again, the information is spotty. However, if you want to bring him from the US to Canada, he has to have lived in the States for at least 6 months, or he's still technically coming from Japan. So he'll have to live with someone there for half a year, and then you'll have to fly or drive down and get him, or hire a pet courier to ship him. Is that an option for you or is that too long? I'll keep looking for more info if that would work for you, but if not, that may be where our research ends.

Sorry for the crappy news


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## Nicolas

Woah, so there actually would be a way to bring him over if I had help from the US? That's interesting, but...

The thing is, time is really short for me. In Japan, the school year ends in March, so as a teacher, if I quit my job, March would actually be my last month of work. I don't want to be a jerk by telling my boss "I'm staying", then quit a few months later, when he'll be too busy with work to train a replacement.

So after March-April, I can't really stay here, because I won't have any new income coming in to pay my rent... So, if the process that you're describing takes a long time, I'm afraid we won't make it in time...
I think that my best bet would be to try and find a new family for him through this shelter. Worst case scenario, the shelter told me they could take him, so I could always leave him there with the staff. It seems like this shelter might be my best chance to give him the happy life that he deserves, without putting him through the potential dangers of being sent overseas. With an average life span of 3-5 years, I don't know how much longer he's got left, but by the end of this year, we could probably consider him "elderly". Would it be wise to put him through such a trip at this time?

For now, I'll try meeting with the families. I'll ask them if I could see him on skype every couple of month, and tell them that I want to keep in touch to see how he's doing.

I just hope I can find someone who will understand: even by hedgehog standards, I think he's a grumpy pet, he does what he wants, not what YOU want him to do. He may seem like an ingrate at times. 
Most of the interaction you'll have with him will be when he sleeps on you, when you feed him treats, and when you clean him/his cage. At the beginning, if he's not used to you, he may poop on you, but if you let him relax/sleep on you often, he will stop doing that. He hasn't done that to me for over a year because he's used to me.

If I meet somebody who's ok with all that, then I'll be able to leave Japan with peace in my heart. ESPECIALLY is they've owned hedgehogs in the past, or own other hedgehogs at the moment.
Also, if the new owner finds out that he's not really the pet for them, they could always bring him back to the shelter! It seems like their network of families are all members of their organization in some form.

This is their website, by the way.
http://www.arkbark.net/?q=en/

EDIT: *Actually though*, you know what? If you could find me some info about how to ship to the US, even if it takes very long, I could always ask the shelter to keep him in the meantime, prepare/ship him, and I could cover the costs with my credit card from Canada...
So if it really is possible, and if there's a member of this forum from the US who could take him for the required 6 months, I'd like to hear about it! For the time being, the owner said she'd talk to the Tokyo staff on Sunday, and contact me then, so I'm assuming I'll be able to view the Tokyo branch/meet some families later this month. I'll start with that for now!


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## FinnickHog

So the CDC says it's okay.... still trying to find a form, if you even need one.

"Small Mammals and Non-African Rodents

Unless they are included in a specific embargo, such as*Civets*and*African Rodents*, or known to carry disease transmissible to humans, these animals are not covered under CDC regulations.

However, state or local regulations may apply. Pet ferrets, for example, are prohibited in California. Any animal known to carry a*disease that can be transmitted to people*(zoonotic disease) is subject to regulation42CFR71.54."


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## FinnickHog

Try this number: 

You may also contact Animal Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) Veterinary Services' National Center for Import and Export (NCIS) for more information (301) 734-3277/8364.

Let them know that you want to sell your hog to someone in the US and that you currently reside in Japan.


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## Nicolas

Thanks a lot! I will call tomorrow.
We then would need to find somebody to actually pick him up at the agreed-upon date and then take care of him, though... but first, I'll find out if it's possible.
Another problem with that, is that it will surely be fairly expensive to ship him that way, and I'm not sure if I would be able to afford it... not to mention, I'm kinda scared at the idea of sending him on that trip by himself. But I'll think about it!

In the meantime, I'll continue my interaction with the ARK shelter in Japan, who knows, maybe they'll find me someone who's a hedgehog enthusiast and would be the perfect match!

Thank you so much for all your help and support.


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## Draenog

Sorry to hear you can't take him with you. What about the Japanese hedgehog community? Do they have a Facebook group or something? Maybe you can find someone who wants to take him in and has experience with hedgehogs.


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## FinnickHog

Here's one more section of the government to contact: Animals:**If you have any questions, or require further information related to imports or export of live animals, birds or germplasm, please contact National Center for Import and Export at (301) 851-3300 or [email protected]

Let me know what you find out!


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## nikki

My thoughts are that now that you found a good, safe, place for him to stay in Japan it might be in his best interest to use that option. Flying is stressful for any animal and hedgehogs just don't do that well with stress. The best thing for him might just be staying in Japan and not going through the stress of flying, moving, etc.


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## Leeloosmommy

I was watching this post and wished that you could make it with Spartacus here to Canada. But unfortunately I think Nikki is right. It will probably less stressful for him to stay in Japan if you can find a good family to take care of him...


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## Nicolas

Yeah, I'll look at the options for the US, but as it is now, I'm probably going to go with a family that the ARK shelter will put me in contact with- anyone who is in contact with that organization must be someone who is passionate about animals, and loves them veru much. So I know he'd be safe. And if all else fails, there is always the shelter's staff itself to fall back on. Maybe one of the staff members or volunteers will even want to bring him home! And I can stay in touch with e-mails and skype.

So... although I will be devastated when saying good bye, it may be the best way at this time. I'll have more news about that next week.


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## Nicolas

By the way, the facebook idea was GREAT!
I didn't use facebook, but in Japan, there is another social media site which is very popular. The site requires a Japanese cell phone e-mail address to log in, and one must have an invite from an already existing user in order to sign up.

Luckily, I had an account years ago, so I was able to log in, found a community of hedgehog lovers, posted my story in a thread, and got a reply the same day! I'm in contact with a girl who has had hedgehogs in the past, and knows how to take care of them. After a lengthy text conversation, I'm getting good vibes from this. She loves hedgehogs, loves feeding them, taking care of them, taking them to the vet if they're sick, etc.
Of course I haven't decided anything yet, we mostly talked about hedgehogs, so I need to know more about her first, but so far it sounds pretty good. Except for one little thing... she lives *roughly 1200km* from me, in the North of Japan!!!

However... it's an area that's popular to visit, and I've never been there. And I'll be on vacation during my last few weeks in Japan. And since I most likely will never come back to Japan after this, I might make the trip and do some sight-seeing at the same time, if I decide to make it Spartacus's new home.

...but I'll start to talk to the folks from the rescue center first, because if I find the perfect match in Tokyo, I'll go for that instead 
Good to know that options are opening up, though! This whole saga has given me tremendous stress, but things are finally starting to move in the right direction.


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## Nicolas

I've got another person who might take him, and she is much closer than the first!

A little question for everyone:

Spartacus has never met other animals before (save for his parents/brothers/sisters when he was a baby). A lady got in touch with me, and she is interested in taking him. And, they have a female hedgehog. I'm assuming that Spartacus would be happy to have a girlfriend!

However, I'm also a little worried. He is not very social, even with me. Let's say that he is... "used" to me, and likes sleeping in my arms/sweater pocket, likes to receive treats, but that's about it. He's a lonesome guy and that's the way he likes it. And to be honest, I kinda like that about him! It's like he's saying "I do what *I* want, not what *YOU* want, deal with it!"

He doesn't really like to be touched (not even on his back), and never shows his belly. (I think that, as a baby, he has not been handled by human hands very much, so he didn't get used to it until he was older).

So, I'm afraid that if he meets another hedgehog, well... I'm afraid he'd be a jerk to her, and that she'd find him scary! I don't know, he might be super happy, but he could also just totally freak out, or make *her* freak out (she might feel threatened that her space is being invaded), and worst case scenario, a fight might even break out!

What do you guys think? Obviously there's no way to know for sure without trying, but has anyone put their hedgehog in a similar situation before? And what happened? What is the best way to introduce them to each other?


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## FinnickHog

No no no! No ladies! If Spartacus gets near a female hedgehog he'll immediately go into sexy time mode. There's no other option with hedgehogs. If the person who takes him puts him in with her female, she *will* end up with babies. And that on it's own can be awful. If mom doesn't think things are perfect, she may actually eat her offspring.

On top of that, having Spartacus lusting after her will make the female hedgehog's body go into ovulation overdrive, which isn't a healthy state for a female hedgie to be in all the time.

It's possible to keep a male hedgehog and a female hedgehog in the same house, but you can't ever put them together, and sometimes even if they're across the room from one another the male can stress the female out.

If I were you, and this lady were an option, I would make her prove (without prompting) that she will never let her hedgehog and Spartacus "play" together. If that's not the case, she either doesn't know better, or wants to use him to make a profit, which isn't good. Hedgehogs should have documented paperwork showing their genetics going back at least a few generations before they're bred. There's a really bad illness called Wobbly Hedgehog Syndrome that kills the hedgehog in an awful way, and this can be avoided by an awareness of genetics. Which this lady would not have with Spartacus.

So, long story short, she may not be your best option >.<


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## Nicolas

Ohh, thanks for that information!

Actually, I JUST got a new message from her. She said that they keep all the animals in the same room, but never let them play together. 
(They also have a bearded dragon, and a betta fish)
She said that her female is too sensitive to play with other animals, and, like Spartacus, she also liked to play alone. So, I guess they wouldn't be together!

Because of this, she said that if they were to keep Spartacus as well, it would be better if he had his old cage, so that he'd feel more at home (I was actually planning on buying a bigger one to donate to his next owner).

However, what you said about them being stressed out from being in the same room is kind of worrying. Perhaps it's best to see if there is another option first. Or, maybe I should visit them once, see the layout of the room, and of course, get to know them a bit more before I entrust them with the care of my baby!

Based on her messages, she seems like an honest person, though. She even showed me a blog she had, that was all about her female hedgehog!
But I wouldn't like for them to have to get rid of Spartacus after I'm gone, if they find out that he's making their female crazy just by being in the same room.

So I guess I'll keep this option as a "maybe" until after I've talked a bit more with her, and after I've talked with the folks from the animal rescue center as well.


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## FinnickHog

That's great that she doesn't want them to play. It definitely would be worthwhile to get to know her a bit better. Maybe find out if she's able to move Spartacus to a different room if he stresses out her female? If she's able to do that, then you don't have to worry about her needing to rehome your little boy. If there's a problem, she can just move him.

He should be fine if you buy him a new cage, just make sure to put his old things that smell like him back in, and maybe include a shirt with your scent on it to help him with the transition.


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## Nicolas

Hey everyone!

I just wanted to say that I've found a great family for Spartacus. Not only do they have a lot of experience with hedgehogs, but they keep tons of animals at home, too.

I visited them today: they have little monkeys, Fennec Foxes, cats, dogs, and even a HUGE turtle living in their backyard! And every pet room is super well organized.

They showed me a space that they've prepared for Spartacus: a nice glass box, bigger than his current one. Plus, they will keep in touch with me and let me know how he's doing.

I honestly dont think that it would be possible to find better people than this to take care of him, so I've made up my mind at this point. Thank you, everyone, for all the help!


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## Leeloosmommy

I am verry happy for Spartacus that you found a great family for him!  Happy for you too that you will not worry too much about him and be able to take some news once in a while! Thank you for the update!


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## FinnickHog

Yay, I'm super glad you found someone! Shipping him to the US and then Canada would have been so stressful for both of you. This way you know he's safe and happy.


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## Draenog

Happy it worked out!


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## nuttylover

I am so glad to know that both of you will be alright!  And the fact that they will still keep in touch with you is really great! That way Spartacus would still be close to you (in a way) 

P.S. I think I noticed that they might keep him in a glass box? If it is an aquarium it is not really advisable for hedgehogs as it has poor ventilation. Just a tip


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## Spice

Nicolas, may I ask how you found the family? I'm in the same predicament that I have a cute little hedgie boy in Japan but after reading this article I now, unfortunately, know it will be so hard to bring him back to the States with me. Any information on the finding a family process and all sites you used would be great. Glad Spartacus has a good home, and hope I can find one for my Spice, too.


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## tmmims

Hey! I'm about to travel from South Korea to America with my hedgehog, and I was wondering how your trip went? I got her as a carry on, so she'll be with me, but I'm still just worried about the stress. How was your hedgehog?


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## nikki

The OP didn't take his hedgehog out of Japan. Have you checked into the regulations to bring a hedgehog into the US from Korea?


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## tmmims

Hey! Yeah right after I posted that, I noticed that there were seven more pages of posts that I didn't read! Now I feel a bit foolish. I'm happy Spartacus found a new home and also sad to hear of the goodbye.

Yes, I've checked into everything. I have permission to land in San Francisco, all the paperwork is done. There will be an inspection, but no quarantine. And then I also have permission to fly from SF to Atlanta. Coco, my hedgie, will be a carry on, so she'll be in the cabin with me. Everything is settled and ready, but I'm just really nervous. I want to bring her with me more than anything else in the world, but I also don't want her to put her through all that stress. She's three and a half years old. I'm so torn on the issue.


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## Spice

tmmims!

Hi!! I am curious how you gained permission to land with your hedgie in San Francisco. The reason I thought I could not bring Spice with me is because I am moving to California(From Japan) and it is illegal to have them in California. Is it just OK if you are going to another State where they are legal that same day (as in, just having a layover in an illegal State?). Can you please let me know what you filled out to make this happen?

I looked up getting permission on https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/ but it seems like they don't allow it for pet owners...

But if you were able to get a permit, that could mean that I could layover in california, take a short flight to Las Vegas and then drive him back to San Francisco. Yeah, I'm pretty desperate.


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## Draenog

I don't think this forum condones talking about illegally importing hedgehogs. Think of the risks, what if your hedgehog get confiscated, or if it gets sick - might be difficult to take an illegal animal to a vet.


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## Spice

Draenog said:


> I don't think this forum condones talking about illegally importing hedgehogs. Think of the risks, what if your hedgehog get confiscated, or if it gets sick - might be difficult to take an illegal animal to a vet.


I did not ask how to illegally import my hedgehog. While after driving back to California, it will be under the law, illegal to have in California he will have come by legal means.

I also, researched hedgehog friendly Vets in California, and there actually are some in San Francisco.

I understand the risk of, if by the off chance, someone comes to my house and reports me for some reason(as if hedgehog legality is common household knowledge), but the chances of that are little to none.

I also understand and respect that there are some questions people don't want to answer; there may also be things they don't agree with but I won't apologize for trying to take my friend back home with me.


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## Lilysmommy

Regardless of whether it's legal when you land by plane, if you're ultimately keeping the hedgehog in California, it's illegal. Draenog is right - we don't encourage or condone people keeping hedgehogs in illegal states/areas on this forum, even if it's California. Even if the laws are lax, it's still against the law, and you're still selfishly risking your hedgehog's life. We put the hedgehog's needs & safety first on this forum - risking their life to have them in an illegal place isn't putting the hedgehog first.


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## tmmims

Maybe you should ask about California laws to an agency? I was always told hedgehogs were illegal in Georgia, but when I talked to customs and immigration at the Atlanta airport, they said it was legal for me to bring Coco home. It's only illegal to sell and breed hedgehogs in Georgia. I just have to sign paperwork stating she is a pet, and not part of a breeding program.


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## Spice

Thanks Tmmims, I'll just go ahead and try that regardless. Their site was intimidating but your words are encouraging!

Nice to get an answer that actually helps the situation. ^^

Will post later with what they say for other hedgie owners trying to bring their babies back home to reside in an alleged illegal zone.


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## twobytwopets

I'll save you the phone call. It's not an alleged illegal zone. It is illegal in California. 
https://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/nongame/nuis_exo/ferret/ferret_issues_table6.html

Believe it or not, everyone that has responded has tried to help you make a responsible decision. It's not that we don't want you to have a hedgehog or understand the predicament you are in, but we wouldn't want to see something negative happen to your hedgehog because you chose to have him in a state where they are illegal.


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## Kalandra

California has a few pages on their website that list hedgehogs as illegal.

"Why can't I have a hedgehog,... in California?"
https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Living-with-Wildlife/Restricted-Pet-Species

Illegal Pets in California
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/nongame/nuis_exo/ferret/ferret_issues_table6.html

Restricted species law (bottom of first page):
https://nrm.dfg.ca.gov/FileHandler.ashx?DocumentID=28427&inlin

Edit: I need to hit submit earlier, might have saved 2x2 some typing


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## Spice

Georgia is an illegal state and yet Tmmims was able to bring her pet home to Georgia. Or am I the only one who read that?

Did you make a the call because I've done all the internet sleuthing too and assure you I am taking this quite seriously. If you didn't call to make sure, I think it's a bit premature to stop me from trying...


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## Artemis-Ichiro

Spice said:


> Georgia is an illegal state and yet Tmmims was able to bring her pet home to Georgia. Or am I the only one who read that?
> 
> Did you make a the call because I've done all the internet sleuthing too and assure you I am taking this quite seriously. If you didn't call to make sure, I think it's a bit premature to stop me from trying...


Did you read the reason why it was possible in Georgia? If not for selling nor breeding they are allowed as pets.

Californianlaws are more strict if you read the links posted earlier.

People in this site care for the wellbeing of hedgehogs and think of when they get sick (because most do at some point or another) how easy is the access to the right vet.

People here don't care if your neighbor see your pet, we worry about his health.

And honestly, at the end you are the person who will do it, you will do it no matter what others tell you in here. It's like when a member asks about the hedgie hibernation attempt or the not moving from their bed but refuse to change the heating setting.


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## Spice

Artemis,

Apparently you don't read posts either because my very first post is asking for rehoming suggestions from the person who was also in my situation. I hope it makes you feel good though; asserting that I'm a bad and selfish person.

Anyway, if anyone is to answer in this thread to help me, then I request you help me try to find an answer to my first question. Will be doing research myself.

Still going to call, and I'm not sorry that it makes me feel like I tried, even if it's futile. ��


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## Artemis-Ichiro

I did read the first one and when you apologize for not reading the whole thing. 

The problem is that someone told you they were able to bring the hedgie back to the States and you wanted to go that rout and then you brought up your final destination as San Francisco where they are illegal and threw a tantrum because people do not approve of keeping hedgehogs in States where they are illegal and you said there are vets willing to see animals that are illegal in that State. 

So yes, I did read your whole post. Hope someone can help you find a rescue place for him if that is what you decided to do.


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## Spice

As this is going now beyond the point, and not doing any hedgie any good, I think if you have anything else to say to me whether it's about tantrums or things I said that you don't agree with, we should move that to PMs, as it says in the forum rules.

Reiterating what I said in the final part of my post I'd appreciate help now from people knowledgeable of possible re-homing in Japan.

Thanks!


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## nikki

If you want to rehome in Japan then you need to pm the OP as he's the only one that knows how he did it.


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## Spice

Done! 

I heard many people here disappear from this forum after posting(especially if they no longer own a hedgehog) so I thought it wise to leave it open-ended to other people, too. Thanks for the suggestion to PM. Hopefully I get a reply.


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## Artemis-Ichiro

http://www.arkbark.net/?q=en/

This is the rescue he mentioned in the post.


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## Kalandra

RE Georgia hedgehogs: You may want to contact the Department of Wildlife in that state. I have always been told it was illegal as pets but legal as licensed breeder, if they were sold out of state only.

There is a USDA licensed breeder in Georgia, Paradise Farms, http://www.minilivestock.com/. Her website states that they are licensed to breed but cannot sell to GA residents.

There are currently two bills in GA 2015-2016 session. One in the house and senate, to exempt hedgehogs from the wildlife permit requirements. Neither have moved anywhere since February 2015. I monitor these and the PA House Bill, but they just don't go anywhere. I encourage those who live in GA to contact their senator & representative to support these bills to get them to move them on.

I would double check on that one, just in case the customs guy had it backwards. I would think the Dept of Wildlife would have jurisdiction and final say.

RE California: CA has been very firm that they won't allow a lot of animals. I know of several groups of hedgehogs that have been flown out of CA to get them out because they couldn't stay there.

The ferret people have been trying for ages and continue to hit a wall. If they ever get through, then we may have hope for a hedgehog to be legal.

Call, exhaust all of your options. If you get a positive response, get it in writing.

Good luck.


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## twobytwopets

My quick searches for hedgehogs in California vs Georgia lead me to one very clear states laws (California) and one state that would require much more digging (Georgia). 
California is very clear on the states websites about hedgehogs being illegal, Georgia wasn't very clear. 
In the event you contact California, or anyone else opts to do so, get everything in writing and ask for the specific codes/rulings. 

The op also utilized social media to find a home for their hedgehog, if memory serves me correct. Apart from the rescue listed earlier, that may be a viable option for you as well.


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## Draenog

Never fails to make me laugh if people on the internet demand "useful replies" aka "only things they _want _to hear" :lol:

Anyway, a call would be your best bet to figure out if there's the possibility of taking him.


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## nikki

It says right on the Georgia Department of Natural Resources page that hedgehogs are illegal to own as pets in Georgia.

http://gadnrle.org/node/84


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