# WOW info from vet!



## hedgieteen (Jun 11, 2012)

I live in Seattle and took Pandora into the vet yesterday afternoon and found out a lot about food.
Apparently, cat kibble isn't good for hedgehogs, but there is a super easy alternative!

First, about the vet I took her to, they were voted best exotic vet in Seattle this last year, and I saw one of the top 2 exotic vets that specialized in hedgehogs. He was pretty thorough and even clipped her nails while she was under anesthesia for her check-up.
I researched hedgehogs for months before getting her, and I waited a month after picking her out. I KNEW what I was doing, or so I thought.

Turns out she has mites, nobody really knows where from, especially since she's on fleece and all that, but she is being treated and it's only been a day and I see improvement, especially in her 'tude.

ANYWAY - he scolded me for cat food, and gave me a sample of this insectivore diet, he gave me some wet and some dry. Pandora loves both but annointed with the wet. (She's used to kibble type food.)

He also called her fat. But, that can be fixed. 

So I'm just posting to inform, and I suggest you guys try the insectivore diet!
Mazuri makes the dry one, ( http://www.mazuri.com/insectivore.aspx ) and I'm not sure where the wet came from, but I will ask when she goes back in for enxt shot in 2 weeks.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Vets are good for some things...but keep in mind that most vets actually know very little about nutrition and they have a habit of suggesting foods that don't have the best ingredients. Many dog/cat vets love to push Science Diet because they get a lot of money from SD. Science Diet has ingredients that aren't terrible, but aren't great either, especially with the price of the food. I wouldn't be surprised if vets got money from Mazuri, especially exotic vets - Mazuri makes diets for a lot of different exotic animals/pets. To be honest, I'd really suggest sticking with the cat food and let your vet know that you appreciate their advice, but you're not comfortable with Mazuri. The reason? The ingredients are not great at all, and the most alarming thing - two of the ingredients are linked with causing cancer and other issues. "PORCINE ANIMAL FAT PRESERVED WITH BHA" and "POULTRY FAT PRESERVED WITH ETHOXYQUIN". BHA and Ethoxyquin are both red flag ingredients. There's other things wrong with some of the other ingredients, but BHA and Ethoxyquin are the biggest reason I'd run away from that food.

Besides the food issue, vets also like to call hedgehogs fat. :lol: What cat food is she on right now? How much does she weigh, and what does her body shape look like? Normal body types for hedgehogs are | | (runner types) and ( ) (a nice tear drop shape, most normal hedgehogs). She might be a bit overweight and require a lower fat food if she seems a bit rounder, or feels "squishy" in the belly when you pick her up. Other signs of being overweight include fat between the shoulders on their back and fat rolls in their armpits or under their chin. If you want a second opinion before you start switching her food and such, you could also post a picture & the experienced people on here could weigh in as well.

Also, I'm not trying to make you doubt your vet...obviously we need them (more often than we'd like!), and they're usually good at what they know, like medical stuff. But vets do not get a lot of nutrition education, and they're notorious for recommending crappy foods. Personally, I tend to thank them for their opinion, and then let them know that I feel differently and I'm going to stick with what I'm feeding. My vet tried to push hedgehog food as well, but was agreeable when I refused.

Edit: Wanted to share this link as well, if you're interested in doing some of your own reading on ingredients and food - http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php ... ngredients It's a great website and really helps you understand how to read bags of dog/cat food, and what to look for (or avoid) in ingredients! Much of the information is the same we got in training when I worked at a pet store. You could check that site out to understand why some of the other ingredients in the insectivore food aren't really great.

Edit again....I just remembered you mentioned she's being treated for mites. What is the vet treating her with? Ivermectin (or Ivermec) or Revolution? If the vet is using Ivermectin (especially injected), STOP treatment immediately and request Revolution instead - Ivermectin has had numerous occasions where an overdose was given or a bad reaction was had to a normal dose, and the hedgehog died, due to how Ivermectin works (paralyzing the mites). Most situations have occurred after the second dose, so do NOT let him continue with Ivermectin if that's what they used. Revolution is topically applied, much harder to overdose, and much safer.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

These designed and simulated diets may say that they provide all the nutrients the animal needs but what the lab equipment says is in the food and what the hedgehog can process are two different things. Also companies used to make these claims about the first commercial cat foods but then cats started dying young and they found out that it was because their "specially formulated food" was missing some crucial nutrients. I honestly don't think we know enough about hedgehog nutrition to specifically fortify a complete food for hedgehogs that they can extract all the nutrients from. My vet recommends a varied diet of cat food insects and veggies or a homemade insectivore diet.

If you're worried about the cat food search the forum (search bar in the title banner top right of page) for homemade diets. Lots of people add veggies and insects to their hedgehog's regular cat food diet in order to increase the fiber and give them any nutrients they need from insects that science doesn't know about yet. You can also consider adding an omega supplement to the food, many people use flax seed oil but you can also use fish oil and my vet said palm oil would work too. It helps keep their skin healthy.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Ditto with hedgielover and Lilysmommy have said. Most vets aren't up to date on foods. It's best to go with what experienced long time breeders and rescues use. Hedgehog diets have changed over the years. Kitten food and what we now consider the crappy brands were once considered the best. Then high quality lite cat foods, until it it was found that the highest quality foods didn't agree with some hedgehogs. Hedgehog food has never been found to be good on it's own although there are some breeders that feed Spikes, or have it in their mix. Mazuri has never been considered a good food and most hedgehogs won't eat it. Because nobody is certain exactly what hedgehogs require, a mix of foods is always recommended so if you want to try Mazuri, add it to a mix.  

Was your hedgehog to the vet for a reason or just a well pet visit? I have concerns about any vet that would gas a hedgehog for a well pet visit. Although small, gassing does carry a risk and most people feel it not worth the risk unless it has to be done to properly exam because of a health issue. Exams for mites can be done without gassing. 

You mention she had a shot for mites. That is ivermectin and there have been severe reactions including deaths to it. I wouldn't allow another shot to be given. Do a search on Ivermectin. There was a death caused by it a week or two ago.


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## momIImany (Oct 14, 2012)

Here are the ingredients of the insectivor (spelling?) diet food:
POULTRY BY-PRODUCT MEAL, GROUND SOYBEAN HULLS, GROUND WHEAT, DRIED BEET PULP, GROUND BROWN RICE, DEHULLED SOYBEAN MEAL, DRIED EGG PRODUCT, GROUND ASPEN, PORCINE ANIMAL FAT PRESERVED WITH BHA, POULTRY FAT PRESERVED WITH ETHOXYQUIN, DRIED APPLE POMACE, POWDERED CELLULOSE, BREWERS DRIED YEAST, DRIED WHEY, WHEAT GERM, SHRIMP MEAL, FISH MEAL, LECITHIN, SOYBEAN OIL, FISH OIL, PHOSPHORIC ACID, CHOLINE CHLORIDE, MENADIONE DIMETHYLPYRIMIDINOL BISULFITE, DL-METHIONINE, SALT, TAURINE, TAGETES EXTRACT, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, TOCOPHEROLS, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, D-ALPHA-TOCOPHERYL ACETATE, L-ASCORBYL-2-POLYPHOSPHATE, CHOLECALCIFEROL, INOSITOL, BIOTIN, VITAMIN A ACETATE, FOLIC ACID, SODIUM ACID PYROPHOSPHATE, RIBOFLAVIN, VITAMIN B-12 SUPPLEMENT, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, DRIED POULTRY LIVER, NICOTINIC ACID, POTASSIUM SORBATE, CANTHAXANTHIN, FERROUS SULFATE, NATUAL MIXED TOCOPHEROLS, COPPER SULFATE, ROSEMARY EXTRACT, MANGANOUS OXIDE, ZINC OXIDE, FERROUS CARBONATE, ZINC SULFATE, CALCIUM IODATE, CALCIUM CARBONATE, COBALT CARBONATE, SODIUM SELENITE.

Doesn't look very good to me.


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## MrPinball (Feb 23, 2013)

Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist but that's how vets, clinics, docs and pharma companies make their $. I would listen to experienced breeders anytime over vets who don't get to see hedgehogs grow up and don't get to deal with them on a daily basis, through ups and downs.  

Plus, the ingredients say it all.


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## TeddysMommy (Apr 24, 2011)

As all have said before, Mazuri isn't a quality diet by itself (I cannot even pronounce the ingredients...) I've tried a multitude of vets and they all have tried to shove Science Diet down my throat (keep in mind, a lot has changed since they were certified and educated!) I would just stick to your high quality cat food with a bit of Mazuri mixed in it. By the way, I hope Pandora's mites get better... Also, maybe ask your vet for a topical treatment such as revolution?


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## abbys (Oct 13, 2012)

hedgieteen said:


> but I will ask when she goes back in for enxt shot in 2 weeks.


This sounds like ivermectin. DO NOT let them give her a second shot. Please research the dangers of that on other forum posts here. There are a couple other red flags that popped out in your post. You said she was in for a check-up, but they put her under. Putting such a small animal under anesthesia is dangerous and should only be done under special circumstances. Was there a reason they did this?

Also, what vet is this? I also live in Seattle and the only one in the city is Bird & Exotic Clinic on Aurora Ave. Mazuri is one of the foods that they carry in the store, so they're bound to recommend it. And since hedgies are naturally rotund, she may not really be "fat." 

I have huge reservations about this particular clinic. In the "care guide" they have for hedgehogs online, they say that glass aquariums are ok for housing, and to include a pan of water in the cage for "wading and swimming."

I take Piglet to Bellevue Crossroads Exotic Vet. I know it's a little out of the way, but I really love them and Dr. Bruce is very gentle and knowledgeable.


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## reedwoman814 (Mar 4, 2013)

I would trust the hedgehog people on this forum before the word of a vet any day. I echo the voices here. Do NOT let that vet give your hedgehog Ivermectin and the ingredients in that insectivore food suck.


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## Alyybear (Nov 8, 2012)

I have to agree with the fact that vets make a commission off of selling their foods. Some even sell 1 star food vs 6 star (the highest you can sell) for dogs and cats, because they make money off of it. Research who funds the AVA (in US)...they proudly say they are sponsored by a pet food distributor. X_X


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Please also remember, that just because your hedgie didn't have any reactions from the first shot doesn't mean she won't from the second one. Most hedgehogs that die from Ivermectin injections die after the second or third shot, and they never reacted at all from the first one.


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