# eye sight



## shawnwk1 (Jul 8, 2011)

this is a subject that has actually facinated me for awhile. wondering if anyone knows of any actual scientific proof that hedgies have poor eyesight? i haven't been able to fine exactly what i'm interested in. sure there are lots of websites that SAY hedgies have bad eyesight and we assume this, but i've always had my doubts. i'm wondering if maybe it is more that their eye sight is limited in the daylight, but they actually have great night vision. watching my boys on camera the past few nights has kinda made me think about this some more. i know all my boys have actually used their eye sight a lot (lot more than people claim they use their eye sight), but the way they fly around the cage at night whether or not i've rearranged just really makes me be a skeptic. it might be different if their noses were always sniffing around, but they're not they run around objects like it weren't nothing at night, they have to have great night vision. another good example if i take jeremiahs sleeping box out of his cage as soon as i put him down he automatically goes to the opposite side of the cage and under the liner without even checking for the box he already knows it's not there so he obviously saw that it wasn't there (doesn't matter if it's dark or not) and no it's not just shape thing cuz i've tried tricking him by putting other things of similar shape in there for him to sleep in and he won't do it he just knows and it's not a smell thing cuz i change out liners and boxes everyday. so would be curious to actually read any scientific research that has been done to prove they have bad eye sight. and yes i know there will be a lot that won't agree with me, but i'm more interested in actual evidence (not just some random website saying so) not just "oh you're wrong they just do" sort of deal. thanks.


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## Hissy-Fit-Hazel (Jul 15, 2011)

I've wondered about the light factor too...sometimes in the light when I give Hazel an insect ( with a spoon lol) it's like she barely sees it coming and it "appears" she smells it coming but not see it until I am inches from her. Could be she is ignoring me but I've noticed it a lot.

At night however diff story...when I go to bed and turn the TV on to watch her camera or TV, out she comes to start her night. The tv light does not seem to bother her at all regardless if there is sound or no sound, little light or no light but even so I have an insulating wrap I put around top and all sides to diminish light but the front is still open. Directly across the room from her enclosure are 2 massive sets of mirrored closet doors. I know she can see the TV screen movement in them because I can from her cage...she never stops her business tho. 

If I get up out of bed...and try to sneak to the bathroom with the tv on/volume on but without making a sound myself MY movement in the mirror stops her in her tracks lol


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I have mixed feelings on their eyesight and I sometimes think that once again, it may depend on the individual hedgehog or perhaps it is the personality of the individual that makes it seem that they can see better or worse than others. 

Many people say their albinos are very light sensitive yet I have yet to have an albino that was light sensitive, but have had a couple of standards that were bothered by light.

Holding a wiggling mealworm in front of their nose and some will grab it in a split second while others seem almost obvious as to where it is. Same with leaving mealies or crickets in the cage. Some have them found and devoured in seconds and others wander around almost clueless. 

My KeiLei is blind and I had to take her to the vet to have it verified because if one didn't know she was blind, she gives no indication of it. Likewise, one of the rescues in Alberta had a boy with no eyes yet she had a video of him running full tilt around their kitchen and living room, avoiding obstacles with slowing down or any indications that he can't see. So obviously, being blind doesn't seem to matter much which could lead us to believe don't need to see well.

I know some of mine can see and can see quite a distance. Whether it is just shapes, or details, or just movement they can still see. 

We know that hedgehogs have very little spatial awareness and most will walk of the edge of things without even stopping. Yet, I've had numerous over the years that knew where the edge was and it is my thought that if they couldn't see well, they would not see that edge. 

It's also said that hedgehogs do not see red light but I know that is not right for them all because I have a red light in their room that I often use in the evening to sit with them. For many, the red light is like no light at all, but there are some who will not come out in the red light and if it turns on while they are up and active, they run and hide. One night many years ago, I mistakenly left the red light on all night and those who didn't seem to like the red light did not eat nor wheel that night but the others obviously had carried on like normal.


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## shawnwk1 (Jul 8, 2011)

thanks ladies you both made very good points of exactly why i have mixed feelings about it and wonder. maybe they are just like us where some of us have good eye sight and others like myself can't see for nothing without contacts or glasses lol. i guess it'd kinda be like how they know when some babies have bad eye sight yet they can't voice it, you just kinda go by their actions and whether or not they respond to certain things in certain ways maybe? idk it's interesting though. i've wondered about the red light thing too cuz i know they say tenrecs can't see red light, but i wasn't real sure about hedgies i've never tried it myself with any of mine. that's interesting though thanks again ladies.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

My rescue girl, Mirabelle, was completely blind, verified by a vet, and she never had trouble getting around in her cage or playpen. She loved to wheel and the only difference I ever saw between her and a sighted hedgehog is that she came out more during the day. It always amazed me how she knew where everything was even if they were moved around.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2011)

Only thing I can throw in is my girls when out with me on my sofa chair will sometimes climb up and carefully look over the edge when they meet it and either carefully examine it (both have dropped down once but they were definitely observing the height) and move on with their business.

I think they do have better eye sight but it can vary with hedgehog as already mentioned and without true research we cannot begin to fully grasp how their other senses fully compensate as stated with those owners with blind hedgehog experience and seeming to have little to no issues.

I feel they kind of have the sixth sense that works in junction with their smell and hearing and possibly feeling to know their surroundings as prey animals it only makes sense their senses are more heightened.


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## shawnwk1 (Jul 8, 2011)

i agree i'm sure if they are some of the ones that are blind or aren't the luckier ones to have better eye sight then they probably compensate in other ways as you said heightened other senses or whatever they feel they have to do to compensate. i don't think they are happy about it though and it probably gets annoying and frustrating for them. that's what i was asking though is if anyone knew of any scientific research that had actually been done on this subject and also the causes. even in humans sometimes its just genetics (sure there are other things that cause it, accidents or whatever) so it would be kinda interesting to read up on any genetic links that have been found with some with poor eye sight or are blind and also as previously discussed by many whether or not there are any food links between it (is there a certain ingrediant/s that may make them more likely to have/get bad/no eye sight(whether it's a food the breeder was feeding so it was prone to from pregnancy of the mother or another food that may have been used later on and then there was an onset?) or is it really just a breed thing? would be interesting to know more for sure.


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## shawnwk1 (Jul 8, 2011)

nancy and nikki just curious how the vets verified the blindness? did they have a little metal thing with the light on it and looked in their eyes and saw detached retnas or something like a human eye exam?


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## Hissy-Fit-Hazel (Jul 15, 2011)

shawnwk1 said:


> or not there are any food links between it (is there a certain ingrediant/s that may make them more likely to have/get bad/no eye sight(whether it's a food the breeder was feeding so it was prone to from pregnancy of the mother or another food that may have been used later on and then there was an onset?) or is it really just a breed thing? would be interesting to know more for sure.


regarding food...I know that can happen with dogs for sure. My last foster was the only survivor in his litter and was born blind. The breeder had her dog food tested as there was no reason to have lost the pups and found the food was tainted in some way (all her dogs were eating it tho and just the pups got sick) This was a founding breeder of a breed that nearly went extinct in the late 1930's, very experienced and well respected. She had to find the cause...the dog went on to not only get his championship but sired a litter even ( he could be shown still as it was proven to not be genetic blindness)

Animals seem to adjust quite readily to loss of vision. When this breeder passed away the blind dog was already 11 years old ...I took him in and he spent his last 4 years with me. Many times people asked me if I was positive he was blind because to see him run around in his own environment you'd never guess lol.


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## Hissy-Fit-Hazel (Jul 15, 2011)

Hmmm topic got me wondering about genetic eye problems so had a look at the hedgehog showing standard again...

"Eyes: 2 points 
The eyes are to be large and bright widely spaced. Animals with missing or injured eyes (not recent) may be shown but will be faulted."

I'm wondering why this is allowable? I don't know how hedgehog breeding works but with dogs...ethical breeders breed only those shown to their championship who will "better" the breed and are free of genetic problems. Is this not the case with hedgies?


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

Hissy-Fit-Hazel said:


> Hmmm topic got me wondering about genetic eye problems so had a look at the hedgehog showing standard again...
> 
> "Eyes: 2 points
> The eyes are to be large and bright widely spaced. Animals with missing or injured eyes (not recent) may be shown but will be faulted."
> ...


I don't think they're considering genetics much in the hedgehogs eye loss it mentions missing or injured and its noted that hedgehogs can injure their eyes rather easily but doesn't slow them down.

I don't think that point really crosses the ethics border unless we were talking about litters bred from genetic defect hedgies to inbred hedgehogs as the cause and since it mentions it like an injury I think its more looking at that part of the spectrum 

Also that is they case but there are many who don't follow it hence the lineage being important for hedgehog breeding


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

The vet examined the eyes with an ophthalmoscope and decided from what he saw there that she was blind. Also she wouldn't react if you tried to touch near her eyes or if you moved something near them. I could be in the room with her and go to pick her up and she wouldn't realize it so I always spoke to her first so she knew I was there.


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## Hissy-Fit-Hazel (Jul 15, 2011)

TWCOGAR said:


> I don't think they're considering genetics much in the hedgehogs eye loss it mentions missing or injured and its noted that hedgehogs can injure their eyes rather easily but doesn't slow them down.
> 
> I don't think that point really crosses the ethics border unless we were talking about litters bred from genetic defect hedgies to inbred hedgehogs as the cause and since it mentions it like an injury I think its more looking at that part of the spectrum
> 
> Also that is they case but there are many who don't follow it hence the lineage being important for hedgehog breeding


Genetics and the spread of genetic disease should be considered first before breeding any animal. The point of purebred breeding is to only breed the BEST of the best in order to contribute to the continuity of the breed itself. ....I do realize hedgehogs can and do end up damaging eyes for non genetic reasons and obviously there is zip for research on hedgie eyes. Just the same as a show dog could could have an accidental injury...but ethical breeders in canines would not even consider showing a dog with a possibly/untested genetic defect or possible disease (of which there are several known to be genetic). Dogs are tested for multiple conditions including hips / eyes / thyroid and such then shown to championship BEFORE considering them a good breeding prospect. I don't imagine many hedgehog breeders test for any disease or even look into an eye issue that far aside from removal if it's not healing...which is my point (it COULD be genetic and why would anyone want to pass that on by allowing it in showing without proof it's not genetic?).

Anyone can enter a hedgehog with old eye injury (or removal due to unknown disease) and say whatever they want. Responsibly I personally would consider a hedgehog bred with an eye condition that was not accidental or specific cause known to definately not be genetic to be unethical.


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## shawnwk1 (Jul 8, 2011)

Oh wow nikki I didn't know they had instruments small enough to look in hedgie eyes. The docs have always just visually looked at them. Too cool


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Any vetrinary opthalmoscope would work...they just narrow the light beam and adjust the focus..no different than looking into a birds eye or any other small animal.


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## basmati (Feb 13, 2009)

This is very interesting....... My second hedgehog, a rehome, Sonic is blind. He lost both eyes due to injury--but as mentioned by others, you would really not know he is blind. It is amazing how he adjusted. I got him mid-Aug, and since then, I've moved him to a larger cage, changed his wheel from a silent spinner to the CSH, and added a plastic tube with no issues. He is a running maniac, not nocturnal at all, and he does not care if you are around as he does his obstical course. He will sniff you out, and keep on trucking. As long as he is not picked up...I am still trying to find out his mello time.....

My experience is only based on two hogs, but this little guy has an amazing sense of smell. He will track down and eat a five week old cricket (legs intact) with no issue in the bathtub. In new surroundings, he moves slower, checking out boundaries with his whiskers, and then he cranks up the speed.


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