# Darker looking urine



## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so on the 23rd October when I went to clean her wheel and pick out litter, I saw that on the white litter where her urine ALWAYS goes it looked like the white tissue had been dyed yellow!

Then the next day 24th October when I checked earlier than normal, I saw it looked a little better but still looked very dark yellow.
So this night I wondered if maybe its a uti, but I only ever hear about them having blood so I dont know.

The next day 25th October, I looked again in the morning rather than the evening when I normally get the chance to- Now I was going to call the vet this day because the other two days by the time I looked it was too late but this day it wouldn't be. But when I looked the urine seemed to be back to normal colour not very see able.
So then that evening - with a fair bit of ease- I got her to wee and put it into a clear container - so from information I found on the urine, it was fine - no blood, not cloudy and it wasnt like super dark looking in there.

So I left calling the vet because I wasnt going to be able to get the exotict vet anyway, and I just kept an eye on it.

Then the 29th October it looked a bit darker again. But I was really busy so sorta had no time to sort it - feel bad but I cant do anything about it.

Then the 30th I looked and it looked almost as bad as the 23rd but just a tad lighter! 

And then this morning (just now) I checked it again, and its a while lot lighter and basically normal again!
I was going to call the vet when they open this morning but now I'm not sure if it looks normal again. 

There has been no blood any days. I have pictures of the first 3 days but didnt think about the other days incase that helps - just ask because I dont want add them if they arent needed! 

So apart from the night of the 24th where it looked like she drank a lot more, nothing else has changed. Her eating is the same (I weigh it so I know this is right) and her activity the same, she always ranges but its always somewhere between 30 mins (the lowest) and 1 hour (the longest) on her wheel - I have a odometer! And then the camera shows another 30 mins - 40 mins (mostly 35 mins) around her viv and playing with toys

I dont really know what to do. It just seems very odd that it keeps changing. 
I dont want to take her to the vet if I dont have to - for her sake nothing to do with not wanting to pay, its just I dont want give her the stress of the vets if its not needed. I also have a feeling the exotic vet isnt there still so not sure if I'd have to find another one or if the small mammal vet will be okay!

I don't really know what to do, she's 1 year and half and this is the only health concern I've had in her whole life.
And although I helped with my friends already sick hedgehog, health issues especially urine ones are totally new to me!

I mean it seems weird it keeps going back to normal. That's why I can't tell if its something to worry about or not.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I forgot the 30th, when I checked it that day the urine was very dark like the 29th.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so today it looks normal still.
I really dont understand why it keeps changing. 

My plan is the next time (if it happens again) it comes out looking like the litter has been dyed yellow, I'm going to get her urine into something clear again to see what it looks like.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

So basically I'm coming to a loss here.

I literally just want to know if its something thats normal and happens and nothing to worry about
Or if its something thats wrong and really does need a vet. 

I've asked in two places. I've asked people who have 15+ years of experience and everyone is just ignoring me and its become really frustrating now. 

I get that people may not know. But seriously surely someone would surely be able to say "no its 100% not normal" because I know with other mammals urine can change colour randomly, so maybe its the same but maybe its an issue because its never happened before. Idk!

And I really dont want to stress her with going to the vet if theres actually nothing wrong and its a normal thing that can happen!


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I'm not at all experienced in this area with hedgehogs, so take what I say with a grain of salt but-

Urine that is bright (or even darker) is often a sign of dehydration. You also mentioned that she appeared to drink more one evening, so I would suspect (keyword haha; _suspect_) that she's likely dehydrated. Particularly if shes a hedgehog fed kibble. Maybe try incorporating more wet food into her diet to see if that helps?

I know Holly was on the heavier side for a while; I dont think it would hurt either to maybe pick up some Keto-diastix strips. You can usually pick them up for relatively cheap at a pharmacy, or amazon even. Theyre for humans, but work for animal samples. Basically; they test for the presence of ketones in urine, which would be found in a diabetic animal. Animals who are diabetic are often very dehydrated, and their urine will be concentrated (and often sweet-smelling) as a result. She could simply be dehydrated from diet alone, but we also cant rule out a possible underlying medical issue as being the cause either. You need to have a clean sample to get an accurate reading; so like keeping her in a plastic storage tub with no bedding until she goes to the toilet. The fresher the sample, the better.

^ Like I said, i am by no means experienced in this area with hedgehogs. But i have over a decade of experience in dealing with rescue dwarf hamsters who have a genetic predisposition to diabetes, so thought that at least some input would be better than you having none. Such a sudden change in her urine colour is definitely not something that I would personally consider normal, and prolonged dehydration can lead to kidney damage - so I certainly do not believe that this is something we should overlook.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I mean it could be possible, at this point its worth checking!
I was also going to use one the urine infection strips which says it gives signs of urine infections, cysts and kidney issue - worth checking as I have some

If either of them show up anything then obviously I'll go to the vet and get her tested through them to just to check with them!
But if nothing shows then I'll still be at a loss of what the heck it is causing this.

Some advice - however possible or bad it could be at this point is better than being ignored when I really need help. I dont want to over look I want to solve it, but I also dont want unnecessary stress vet visits if there is nothing wrong (plus my exotic vet still back and I'm not sure how much I trust the small mammal vet so very hesitant as I dont know of any other vets near me that know about hogs!)

Her diet is very biscuit based anymore.
She actually eats anything from 3g-8g
I add a little water to that once a week.
She has 5-7g meat and veg once a week, just 5-7g meat with flaxseed oil once a week, 6-8g egg once a week (sometimes adding flaxseed oil depending how her skin looks) and then 10g wet food every other week and 14 insects a day.
This is helping keep her weight stay stable and healthy and its not really very biscuit based like it was when I first got her. 
Last night she also drank a bit more water than before but as much as that one night I mentioned.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

There's just so many factors that can cause urine to change colour, and sometimes they harmless changes that can just be attributed to a certain food ate that day - but sometimes they can be more serious, and indicating of a serious underlying medical problem. It's really just going to be a matter of running through multiple options to find out whats the cause.

I know you said her urine was darker than normal; would you say it was bright yellow, or darker? Since you mentioned you supplement with flax oil, that contains plentiful B vitamins which can cause bright yellow urine (from excess B vitamins being excreted). Eggs are also a great source of B vitamins, and combine the two together you have a B vitamin party. Have you noticed any correlation with whats shes eating vs the colour or her urine at all? 

If its darker, and more leaning towards orange, one possible reason is that she's dehydrated. And again, it could be as simple as just making her diet more wet based (even though its not even heavily kibble to begin with; some hogs fair worse on even a small amount of kibble than others) or it could be more serious like diabetes.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

This is the one from the 23rd - first time.

I only mixed the flaxseed oil with the egg once on the 20th, her urine was still normal. I try to keep it a bit away from the egg normally! 

I make a note of a lot of most things except I forgot to note the days I added the water to the biscuit! 
I've just been looking for a pattern and found nothing! 

So being found the 23rd it would have been the urine from the 22nd
So I'll start from the 22nd

22nd She only had biscuit she ate 7g and her normal 14 insects - urine darker (seen on the 23rd)

23rd She had lamb, veg and biscuit she ate 6g Lamb&Veg, 4g Biscuit so a total 10g. And normal 14 insects. Urine was a bit lighter than the first day (seen on the 24th)

24th She had just biscuit she ate 5g and her normal 14 insects. Her urine was back to normal (seen on the 25th)

25th She had turkey and biscuit, she ate 7g turkey, 6g biscuit, oh and flaxseed oil on the turkey (5 days apart from the last one and egg that was planned) her urine was normal and this is the day she drank more water than normal. Oh and ofcourse her normal 14 insects

26th was just biscuit again, she ate 7g, plus her normal 14 insects. Urine was normal

27th was again just biscuit, she ate 8g and her normal 14 insects. Urine was normal

28th again just biscuit, she ate 5g, her normal 14 insects. Urine was normal (seen on 29th)

29th she had chicken, veg and biscuit, she ate 5g chicken&veg, 6g biscuit so total 11g. Normal 14 insects. Urine was a bit lighter than 28th but still not normal (seen on 30th)

30th she had duck and biscuit, she ate 5g duck with flaxseed oil on duck, 5g biscuit so total 10g, her normal 14 insects, urine same as 29th (seen on 31st) 

31st was just biscuit she ate 7g, normal 14 insects, urine normal

1st again just biscuit, she ate 7g, normal 14 insects, urine normal

This is with all my notes written on the day as I saw it. From when it first happened to seeing her urine today.

I can't really see a patter with diet myself, but might be missing something.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Yeah I dont see any correlation with diet and urine colour at all, so thats likely one option we can rule off the list. I think your best bet would be the testing strips - i mean if anything, at least they'll give you some peace of mind. If they come back normal, and the fluctuation still continues (and due to the fact that its a recent change and not otherwise normal for her), a vet visit cant hurt. If shes a food motivated hog, some snacks can make the visit less stressful. Coco has been in and out of the vets for the last couple weeks after a cancer diagnosis, and once i had snacks and her favoruite blanket I was golden. She's usually super huffy with strangers, but the bribes certainly helped!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

True hopefully the vet will be be back by 
the time I get the strips and tested.
They will prob re do the urine test but that wouldn't really be an issue because second tests are always good haha.

I'm glad its not just me that's found no pattern with it so theres nothing with diet.

She's not big on eating outside her cage so treats may not work with her but I'll take some and try anyway.
And the blanket will work with any blanket I've slept with to get my scent on.

I'm sorta worried that the exotic vet still isnt back. So may need to look for another one that knows about hogs - which isnt easy where I live cause hedgehogs arent very known in the area I live but are further out! But I cant see why a small mammal vet wont work if I have a rough idea to help them. 

I'm going to test her urine while it looks normal, and then when its that darker and it looks like some dyed the litter yellow. To see if theres anything either time.

Might start looking for another vet incase I need it to. Just incase my normal one isnt back soon. I dont want to wait too long haha.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so I found these strips that can Measure, Leukocytes, Nitrite, Urobilinogen, Protein, pH, Blood, Specific Gravity, Ketone, Bilirubin, & Glucose in the urine. 

Which will give me an indicator of the diabetes, kidney issues, a uti, liver disease, the acidity, and blood that may not be showing. 

This is what it said:

Presence of excreted Urobilinogen and Bilirubin suggests a possible deterioration of liver functions and an early indication of possible liver disease

Leukocytes indicate white blood cells in the urine, while Nitrite screens possible asymptomatic infections caused by nitrate-reducing bacteria. A positive Leukocytes and Nitrite test suggests a possible UTI.

Positive protein test in urine usually indicates Proteinuria, the presence of protein in the kidneys.
Specific Gravity check the water and urine concentration of the body to help evaluate kidney functions.

The pH test measures the acidity of urine. A result of approximately 7.0 indicates a balanced body pH.

Ketones are used for different reasons. The top uses are for various diets (ketogenic, paleo, atkins). Ketones in the urine is a sign that your body is using fat for energy instead of using glucose because not enough insulin is available to use glucose for energy
Glucose in the urine could indicate renal glycosuria.*

Blood in urine could indicate UTI, Kidney infection, medication, menstruation, strenuous exercise.

So it covers a lot
And then if something flags up I can take it to vet to show them and if nothing comes up I'll need to go to a vet to get to the bottom of it. Maybe they can extract some urine from her and test it without it touching anything else, to be 100% sure.. idk.
I'm hoping its going to be simple!


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

It's always good to have a back up vet too, just in case of an emergency and your usual go-to vet isnt available. So having a look around and getting familiar with your options is always a good idea! I totally know the struggle of trying to find a decent vet. I love my current vet, and trust her 100%, but I took Coco to a different vet back in March, and they gave her baytril for a URI (that she didnt even have; she huffed at him, and he thought she has a respiratory infection - so i never even gave her the baytril). Theyre not very common pets here either - I've been in and out of the vets for the past few weeks, and I couldnt tell you how many people in the waiting room thought she was a European hog and asked if I found Coco in my garden haha. 

Those strips sound like they do cover a lot and will hopefully give you some answers. If you could keep her in a plastic tub until she goes to the bathroom, that will give you the cleanest sample at home & thus the most accurate results. It could just be normal fluctuation in colour- but if its something that hasnt happened before, it doesnt hurt to check to be on the safe side.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Yes well the last time I wanted to put her urine into something clean I had a sterelised bowl under her wheel and as she wees before pooping without her feet touching it and the wheel was freshly cleaned it was a good clean way to get the sample so will do it that way again.

I know its always good to have a back up vet but to be honest I didn't think it about it until now! The small mammal vet isnt really sure about seeing Holly as doesn't know what to even do with a hedgehog! So having some idea if I'm going to see her would be better for everyone!

I've been looking for an exotic vet today incase It says nothing, and then the small mammal vet isnt too keen then I need a vet, but there doesn't seem to be any near me! I've called some, and they said they wouldn't be able to see a hedgehog. So frustrating! 
I might look a little further away to see if I can find one.

Its mad how many confuse aph's with european hogs! They don't look similar at all but hey.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so the one on the left is from the 25th October when I first put her urine into something clear.
I had nothing to test it right now.

The one on the right is from today, the second time putting her urine into something clear.
This time I also had the strips ready to test and everything came back negative.

My question is which one seems more like normal urine for a hedgehog in something clear?


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

There are so many variables when it comes to urine colour, even in humans. Drinking a bit more or less can have a significant effect on urine colour. As can certain foods. I think that both those samples fall within the normal range. 

Unless its very dark or bloody, has clots or becomes very strong smelling I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Her urine is becoming really annoying.
Every time I want to get it into something clear its always normal and then when its darker on the litter, she refuses to wee to get it into something clear!

The first one was when it looked normal on the litter and the second one was when it almost normal it was a little darker but not by much.

I've not been able to get it when its been really dark. But recently she has been drinking a lot more water and her urine seems to be normal more often than not now.

So now I don't understand why she's suddenly needing more water than before. So suddenly too.
Seems weird to me. But not stressing over it. Just really confused - nothing has changed.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Watch the color of your own urine when you use the washroom, sometimes it will be light coloured and other times it will be darker. It's normal and nothing to worry about.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

nikki said:


> Watch the color of your own urine when you use the washroom, sometimes it will be light coloured and other times it will be darker. It's normal and nothing to worry about.


Well thats was my original thoughts when it started. But its never done it before and only suddenly started to do it. That's why I want sure, because it went from never changed to sudden keep going really dark like her litter has been dyed yellow and then goes normal and just keeps doing it. Thats why I wasnt sure if it was normal or not anymore.

I'm not worrying. I'm just confused.
And wanting to know why she's drinking more is more a curious thing than worrying about it.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

For anyone that cares. Her urine is still changing a lot.

She now has a vet appointment where I am going to get her urine tested and see about a blood test to be sure if it is or not diabetes as someone else I tried to talk to at the start came back saying from what I described and the one strip test I did coming back normal its possible its diabetes and the urine strip isn't picking it up because by the evening her urine is normal again. Where she's drank more.

No one is convinced that its just a normal change in colour because of how dark it went, and how it came on so suddenly and has never really changed especially that dark in colour her whole life.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

The testing strips for diabetes test for the presence of ketones or high levels of protein (kidney damage); not how concentrated the urine sample is. Whether or not she's hydrated when you take the sample shouldnt matter, because the ketones and protein will still be there.

However, they are not always 100% accurate and a blood test is 100% the way to go to either confirm or rule it out as a possibility. Hopefully it is nothing other than normal fluctuation but due to her weight issues, and the fact that its only something that's been happening recently, I think the vet check up wouldnt hurt. Better to be safe than sorry, hopefully everything goes well at the vet!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Yea I decided to be 100% sure I'll take samples to the vet and see if they can test the blood to be 100% sure its not diabetes.

Its just weird, given how the urine has never really changed. And how dark its getting when its changing seems mad in my head.
I know urine can change colour a bit. But it seems to be changing loads. Like they look totally different. 
And if its never happened before why would it suddenly start now? 
Plus the fact she's started to drink more water after the urine keep changing colour, seems like the two are linked!

But yea basically what the person said was pretty similar because of her weight and how her urine has never changed this much ever, and then since the urine changing she's been drinking more.
So really being 100% sure its jot diabetes. And hopefully with more tests from the vet on the urine we might find something. And if all comes saying theres nothing then It must be normal! And only suddenly became her new normal.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

She has now been to the vet.
She said that Holly definitely doesn't look illl and is acting fine.
The urine we had is like 3 days old as she was a pain and wouldnt do anything for us last night so she tested that and said there was a lot of protein - which she isnt sure if that's normal or not, and it came back saying there was a small amount of Bilirubin which she knows in dogs is normal but cats its not, and she isnt 100% sure and when she tried calling the person she knew would know they didnt answer.
Everything was all negative. And definitely no blood
The strips she has are the same ones I got for testing the urine myself! 

So what she has done is given us some pots to put some fresh urine in tonight, then drop them back tomorrow morning and she'll send them to the lab to get more tests and they will know 100% what is normal and what isnt.

She said it does seem a bit weird to be just normal pigment change when her whole life it has never really changed. 
She said it could be to do with weight but Holly is healthy again, she weighed her today and she is 600g, can full ball (which she kindly proved to the vet!) And theres mo excess fat. So she's agreed its not weight! And her diet is good so doesn't believe its diet related. 
I know I changed her food a while back when I put her on the diet to loose weight but she said if it was to do with that then it would have started back then. 
She said as there is no glucose in the urine she isnt sure about it being diabetes, but didn't take any blood to be 100% sure as apparently it always shows at least a little in urine.

So yea that's her update.
She actually did pretty well at the vet, wasnt too stressed - though I had treats I gave her before and after!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay so we got a fresh sample for the vet, put it into the two tubs she asked with the amounts she wanted in each. And then still had a little to test on the strips I have (which are the exact same as hers)
Anyway when we tested it said everything is negative, the specific gravity came out at 1.010 and the pH came out at 6.0

So I think the protein and bilirubin that showed up was because it was 3 days old. 

We'll see what the lab comes back saying. And see if anything is picked up. Otherwise It must just be normal. But I still find it a bit odd that its just suddenly started with no change, when its never changed before.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

For anyone who is interested/wants to know

I got a call from the vet this morning with the results from the lab test on Holly's urine

It came back with no found bacteria which is really great. Most things came back as negative and there is 100% no blood cells in the urine which is brilliant.
However there is protein I don't know how much as the vet wouldn't say, but the lab have said they THINK its normal, I've trier searching up on it because the fact they aren't sure and only think makes me a little unsure haha.
They also picked up crystals in her urine, the vet said this can be a sign of cystitis but normally there is blood along with it. I need to do more searching on this as the vet didnt seem to want to talk much about it, and told me its probably nothing. But to be honest I dont think crystals in urine should be ignored? So going to look up on it myself as I dont know a whole lot about it.
She then said that overall theres nothing flagged up as concern and to just keep an eye on her.

On the phone she also admitted the lab dont really know that much, even though the vet told us they will know loads more. 

My mum is going to see if they will give us a print out copy of the results so we can look at it ourself and see how much they say of protein and crystals there are because when I asked about how much she didnt want to give a answer. The only reason my mum is doing this is because I wont get the time.

So I'm going to do some research on crystals in urine. As I do not believe from the small amount I do know, that its something that should just be completely ignored. Maybe its that she just doesn't know? 
If anyone knows any sites that will help with this I would appreciate it, but its fine if no one knows anything!


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

So its been almost a year and her urine still changes.
To me it smells sweet but my mum doesn't think so.

We haven't been back to the vet she was actually no help at all since she lied to us.
During lockdown someone mentioned this great exotic vet that's brilliant with hedgehogs but obviously not been.

I can test Holly's urine at home with these testing stripes I have.
The last few times I've tested it the ketones has been too dark to be negative but not the same colour as the trace.
The glucose has been tinted green nut mostly blue so no idea what that means, but thinking theres some there just not enough to be properly picked up?

Since the last time I brought this up, she has lost weight and is now 521g so no longer overweight! Well apart from the last 21g!

She has been drinking more water, she drinks half a bowl mostly, except the odd occasion where she drinks a little less or the days she gets the wet food (once every other week)

So anyway I still have no idea what it is.
But the more carbs she gets in her diet the more her urine changes to the darker colour.


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