# Bath



## stormi (Feb 9, 2019)

How often should you bathe a baby? When do I know to cut her nails? What shampoo does everyone use? I’ve been reading all these different things so I don’t know what’s best for her


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## belties (Oct 2, 2018)

Everyone has a different plan but we give full baths once a month and foot baths every other nite or as needed. If her feet are clean no need for a foot bath. For full baths we did use oatmeal baby wash but have switched to Hogwash and like it better.We cut nails when they get looking long.If you let them get to long it will reduce the amount they run and they get caught in bedding and towels.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I rarely do a full wash for Holly even less than once a month (but she doesnt really beed washing), but most people do a full wash once a month, you shouldn't bath them too much as it can dry their skin. Foot baths are okay to be done every other day, some have to do it daily. I just get a damp cloth and wipe Holly's feet to get any poo on them off and dry them straight away. And again you cut nails when they are looking long. Its differnt for every hog as they all grow at differnt rates.
Some people use aveeno baby wash, or a oat bath and the hog wash. And some do it in just plain warm water.


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## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

I was wondering the same thing. I've only had my hedgehog for a week. He has been running on his wheel at night because I have to clean poo off it each morning. However it isn't a big mess by any means. His feet still seem clean and I have yet seen the need to clean them. Is this unusual?


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## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

Mecki said:


> I was wondering the same thing. I've only had my hedgehog for a week. He has been running on his wheel at night because I have to clean poo off it each morning. However it isn't a big mess by any means. His feet still seem clean and I have yet seen the need to clean them. Is this unusual?


 not at all! Hedgehogs are actually fairly clean animals and tend to groom themselves, so it's quite possible your hedgie is cleaning her feet! Christina does it &#128578;


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## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

Aj.t said:


> not at all! Hedgehogs are actually fairly clean animals and tend to groom themselves, so it's quite possible your hedgie is cleaning her feet! Christina does it &#128578;


Oh good! I was beginning to wonder if something was wrong. I've actually been pleasantly surprised at how clean his cage has remained during the week.

I had him in a carry bag when I typed my last question and then took the following photo of him to see if I could see his feet better. :grin: (He's not great about opening up much when I'm holding him. I'm hoping it's because it's only been a week and he is quilling or was quilling (?) .)


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## stormi (Feb 9, 2019)

belties said:


> Everyone has a different plan but we give full baths once a month and foot baths every other nite or as needed. If her feet are clean no need for a foot bath. For full baths we did use oatmeal baby wash but have switched to Hogwash and like it better.We cut nails when they get looking long.If you let them get to long it will reduce the amount they run and they get caught in bedding and towels.


Thank you so much for the help!


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I think bathing hedgehogs has become more of a social media trend than something that is being done out of necessity. Hedgehogs should not be regularly bathed - if at all, and certainly not on a monthly basis. Their wheels should be cleaned as required (and not allowed to become caked with faeces) to minimise the risk of the hedgehogs quills getting dirty and should it ever be required (aka they’ve anointed with something particularly messy, etc) you can wipe their quills/tummies down with a damp cloth. Generally speaking, they are absolutely fully capable of cleaning themselves; offering them a sand bath (not dust, it must be sand) is also necessary to aid them in removing dirt from their coat - and keeps their skin healthy too! 

The furtherst I would go is the occasional foot bath in warm water, if it’s required. But drenching a hedgehog in water, scrubbing them down in shampoo, etc - nothing makes me cringe more haha, especially when it is so rarely genuinely required. 

I’ve had my hog since November; I haven’t bathed her once (I actually haven’t even given her a foot bath; we have a very strict hygiene routine and she’s overall a very well mannered hedgehog!). But yes, please do not bathe your hedgehog on a monthly basis and try to avoid doing it at all. Offer them a sand bath and use a damp cloth to wipe them down if need be.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Actually people bath them for hygine reasons not for social media. 
I agree that they shouldnt be bathed often, once a month at most is what peope say, but you can do it less or not bath them at all. Unfortantly not all hedgehogs clean themselves. I'm constantly having to clean Holly's feet from poo where as others I know aren't. I have had Holly since June, shes had two baths because she did really need them. Also theres the hedgehog hives aspect, this is the main reason people say to wash them because hedgehog hives are very itchy and annoying and cause what looks like a rash, some people dont like dealing with that so do a routine bath once a month to make sure they are all clean from anything so that they dont react so much.


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## Brooke Lancelot (Jan 30, 2019)

Same with my boy. He gets his feet dirty on his wheel. And he licks dirt and spits it on his back (anoints). Aswell as when I smell like a dog from my job at the doggy hotel, he'll spit on his back then he'll smell like wet dog. He's a messy boy... Only thing he cleans, like, once every two months are his back legs 😂


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I respectively disagree. I would majorly question hygiene routine if once a month bathing (as in: putting them in a bath, not just washing feet) was required. A lot of people _do_ bathe them for social media, and often because they've been misled into thinking that regular bathing is a requirement of hedgehog care. If once a month bathing was required (again, I am not speaking about just letting the hog walk in a few cm of water for a foot bath) I would ask if the hog had access to a sand bath, which - in most cases - the hedgehog will instinctively use to remove any dirt from their coat and quills. Unfortunately providing them with a sand bath is not the norm in the US for whatever reason, and I do think that forums do not stress the importance of providing one enough.

If hedgie hives are a problem; damp cloth, and wipe them down. Washing them and soaking them in water and shampoo should absolutely not be required to rid them.


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## akitka (Aug 10, 2018)

That’s an interesting point of view and one I’ve never heard before. I’d always read sand baths were best avoided because boys could get it stuck in their bits. Would you say that’s a myth? I’d love to try giving one to my hog though as I’m very interested in giving him different enrichment options. What kind of sand do you buy? Do you bake it to sanitize or no?


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I would say that that is an over-exagerated myth, and would be an extremely rare problem to encounter. Sand baths are considered necessary for hedgehogs in many parts of the word; particularly in Germany, who have arguably the highest standards of pet care. Hedgehogs will instinctively roll around in the sand to groom themselves. For me personally, this is a clear indication that it is something they would naturally use to clean themselves and is not just something they do for fun (though they do love it, which is an added bonus!). Its great for aiding with dry skin issues (compared to bathing them in water, which will worsen their already dry skin even more) and is a much more natural way for them to groom themselves vs water and shampoo.

I use chinchilla bathing sand (this one), but it's important to make sure you purchase _sand_ and not dust. You can also use childrens playsand - which you can bake to sanitise. Personally, I prefer chinchilla sand and believe that it does a better job and maintaining their coat and is much softer (if that makes sense? haha) too.


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## akitka (Aug 10, 2018)

That’s great info, thanks! I’ll try adding a sand area to my hedgehogs enclosure and see how he gets on with it. It makes sense that it would be an instinctual way for them to clean, as they are bred from a desert species.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Emc said:


> I would say that that is an over-exagerated myth, and would be an extremely rare problem to encounter. Sand baths are considered necessary for hedgehogs in many parts of the word; particularly in Germany, who have arguably the highest standards of pet care. Hedgehogs will instinctively roll around in the sand to groom themselves. For me personally, this is a clear indication that it is something they would naturally use to clean themselves and is not just something they do for fun (though they do love it, which is an added bonus!). Its great for aiding with dry skin issues (compared to bathing them in water, which will worsen their already dry skin even more) and is a much more natural way for them to groom themselves vs water and shampoo.
> 
> I use chinchilla bathing sand (this one), but it's important to make sure you purchase _sand_ and not dust. You can also use childrens playsand - which you can bake to sanitise. Personally, I prefer chinchilla sand and believe that it does a better job and maintaining their coat and is much softer (if that makes sense? haha) too.


 It isn't a myth... it happened to my cousin when he had a hedgehog and used sand baths. I'd say that it's rare, but a possibility. It's definitely not a myth.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I think it’s an extremely rare chance, and I think that’s it’s completely over exaggerated as to how much of a “risk” it poses. I also think that the reports of it causing a genuine issue are inaccurate. People see sand on their hedgehogs private parts, and freak out - when the hog is (in most cases) perfectly capable of grooming themselves to remove it. APH Hedgehogs need sand baths; and I think people are scaremongered into not providing one, personally.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Hmmm.. maybe I’ll try it out. I’ve been too scared to try it because what happened to my cousin’s hedgehog. His hedgehog was okay, but I thought that he was just lucky. I was looking at a German hedgehog forum and they said that water baths are awful for them.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

I did more research on it and I think I’ve come to a conclusion. Germany often does lead in pet care standards, especially when it comes to enclosures and enrichment, but, there things that are non-negotiable and things that are negotiable in pet care. 

Sand baths are one of those negotiable issues that opinions on vary greatly depending on location. In most places, even if they advocate for sand baths, it's generally considered to be an enrichment activity vs. an actual bathing activity (whereas in other species, with more flexible paws and the ability to clean themselves a little more, like tenrecs and hamster it's sandbaths that are necessary and yes, water baths should be avoided). 

Hedgehogs are prone to getting pretty messy, and don't really have the ability to bathe themselves like some other critters do. They also have very sensitive upper respiratory systems, which is often why sand baths are argued against, because it's thought that the baths could aggravate what is already sensitive and cause issues. Water baths with human aid help to get them actually clean which can be super necessary for super gross hogs, but does have the downsides of dry skin (if you aren't careful about products being used and you don't take the time to make sure to moisturize them, which most owners here do!) and they could potentially lead to infection in the ears or upper respiratory if they aren't well supervised and they get too much water where it shouldn't be and aren't dried properly.

I guess this really is just one of those things where you have do decide what works best for you and your animal after looking at it from as many sides as you can.

I don’t think sand baths will work for me personally lol


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

They come from a dry climate and are notorious for having dry skin issues, they can't swim, and will get sick if they're not fully dry before being placed back in their cage - water and hedgehogs don't mix, there is absolutely nothing about bathing hedgehogs in water that's natural and I cringe when I see it being recommended monthly. It should be done as an absolute last resort, or if medical reasons require otherwise. But yes; I would highly recommend giving a sand bath a try; hogs do really love them. I understand why you may be hesitant (none of us want to ever put them in harms way!) but the risk is honestly so slight that I think it's a stretch, personally, to even call it a risk. 

ETA;

Okay, we posted at the same time. I disagree, whole-heartedly, with the offering of sand baths being an enrichment activity vs bathing activity - and I believe you'd be hard done by to find anyone who uses sand baths for their hogs to argue otherwise. Yes, it does provide enrichment but they actively roll around in the sand to groom themselves, and it is very much so a clear instinctive behaviour that they use to keep clean. Sand also helps with dry skin issues; an issue that I personally believe is further amplified by the fact that so few people actually provide their hog with sand and instead choose to bathe them in water. Many other species are nortouius for having sensitive respiratory systems; gerbils, hamsters, the list goes on - but a sand bath is necessary item for these species too. This is why we stress on offering a high quality _sand_ and not bathing _dust_. They are a desert species; I understand they are pets, but any otherwise healthy hog should have absolutely no issue with sand baths... they do have sand in the wild, after all.

I totally acknowledge if you have a different opinion on the matter, but IMO these are completely over-exaggerated risks that again, I think is a stretch to even label them as such. Bathing hedgehogs in water mostly should be absolutely frowned upon. Sand allows them to clean dirt from their coat and quills themselves but in the off-chance that it doesn't; they should be wiped down with a warm rag, not soaked in water.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay I think your just making people sound worse than they are with bathing then. NO ONE recomends dorwning the hogs in water !! Everyone always says they should be in shallow water and you brush the dirt off with soft toothbrushes. Sure it does dry skin BUT thats why people say not to do it too much. Some people do recomand doing a rountine bath monthly, but actually 90% of peope wont because they have looked into hedgehog more, and found that its only needed with very dirty hedgehogs.
Also every good owner will always make sure their hogs are complete dry, and some don't even get that wet becaude no one puts them in high enough water. 

Also Chinchilla sand still contains dust, so if used too much then it will cause respitory problems in the long term. So you do have to be carful with sand baths. Also not all hedgehogs actually like sand baths or actually naturally do anything with them. I know someone who offered her hedgehog a sand bath he went over sat it in and sniffed used as a litter tray and ran away to play.


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## akitka (Aug 10, 2018)

Nothing to do with the bath really, but wondering if anyone from this conversation has any links to information for German hedgehog care? Forums or other resources. I’m trying to find more information about advanced enrichment I could provide my hog and it seems there’s very little information about it on this forum.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Sand baths are more natural yes, but has risks too. 
Personally I feel you have more control over a water bath than you do a sand bath. 
Personally unless your getting your sand from where they would live naturally in the wild and sanitising it then its never going to be 100% safe for a hedgehog either.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Ria said:


> Personally unless your getting your sand from where they would live naturally in the wild and sanitising it then its never going to be 100% safe for a hedgehog either.


Okay, you're reaching here haha. If you don't want to use sand baths, that's perfectly fine - but claiming that only sand from their natural habitat is 100% risk free is a littttllleee bit much for me. It's like claiming that feeding them cat food isn't 100% because they wouldn't get it in the wild, wheels aren't safe because they don't use them in the wild, etc etc.

Bathing a hedgehog in water is soaking them in water. There is no ifs, not buts about it. They are drenched and have to be dried - doing this on a monthly basis (for the sake of hedgie hives, or even dirt!) is insane, as is doing it every other month. Again, you are free to disagree - but I honestly don't see how one could argue that bathing a hedgehog in water is advisable, period.

Yes, there is dust in sand. Just as there is dust in bedding (No matter how many dust free labels there are on the bag, there is always some level of dust!). Does this make housing a hedgehog on bedding instead of fleece bad? Nope, because it's such a low level of dust that for any _average_ (i.e. not one who has a poor immune system, or is poorly, etc) it is no cause for concern. This also applied to sand baths. They can be offered 24/7 in a container in the animals enclosure and will not cause any URI related issues if _offered a high quality sand, and not dust_. You have the same level or risk encountering a URI with using sand as you do if you use loose substrate. Is there a risk? Sure, I mean isnt there a risk to everything. Now is it a measurable risk, to be actively concerned about, for the average hog? Absolutely not.

I'm really not trying to make anyone sound like the devil. I just believe that there is a lot of misinformation on sand baths spread in the english communities, and an awful lot of fearmongering going on with very, very over-exaggerated points often made by people who have never even tried sand baths with hedgehogs.

They are a desert species, and yes - I'm sure you will get the odd one who uses it as a litter box and nothing more (and this applies to every other species that requires a sand bath too, not just hogs!) - but for the _majority_ they will instinctively use sand to clean their coats and I would personally argue that you will be hard done by to find someone who uses a sand bath with their hedgehog who ever finds bathing their hedgehog (aside from occasional foot baths) to be a necessity. TL;DR: Bathing hedgehogs in water should not be the go-to for a dirty hedgehog, and more emphasis needs to be put on the importance of providing a sand bath.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

To be honest cat food isnt that good for them no matter how high quilty it is. Theres always gonna be stuff in them that isnt that good for them and can be a risk - certain things like grains and cerals, will always be found in cat foods which isnt that good for hedgehogs, same as a few other products I cant 100% remember what they are. But if you manage it right and balance it right then they get a good diet which shoud still mainly be insects. 
Same as the sand can be a risk.
Same as the water can be a risk.
To be perfectly honest wheels can be a risk too - If they run too much any wheel regardless of ridges can be an issue, also if the whee falls because Hedgehogs are great at knocking things if it falls on them or anything then thats not safe. But they need some form of exercise and if managed right wheels can be secured better making them less of a risk. 
So can all bedding yes - Most people use fleece but thats not natural either and makes natural burrowing limuted hence liner diving. This is very much done by preferences of the owners.
Even us as humans can be a risk to them. 

I do agree that sand baths would benefit them and that yea they are likely needed because honestly thats how they would clean in the wild, as you said they dont like water they aren't going to jump in the water to clean thenselves in the wild so yes they will use sand baths. But at the same time as they are pets people do worry more about thing like it getting stuck in their seath.

For hedgehogs we are using products desinged for orher animals, not for them, there is ALWAYS going to be risks. 

But your saying that water baths should be a flat no, which I dont think is right. Yes its not natural for them, but nor is anything in their enclosures. So saying that sand baths are the only way to go becaus its more natural I dont see how its really matter much if nothing else is natural.

Now with Holly she actually doesnt have either sand baths or water baths. Mainly because I couldnt find safe sand and every time I asked anyone I wasnt told anything. And then theres needing a tary I had no idea what the best tray for that would be, and I didnt have the time to reasearch it. 
I have her a foot bath once and in that I used it clean her back too twice but I gave up and just wipe her feet now because baths actually 100% stressed her out and I hated seeing her like that. 

To be honest I wouldnt deem anything other than the insects 100% totally safe for them. But thats just me.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

My point being; we can never replicate what they have in the wild, simply because this isn’t the wild - it’s captivity. But that doesn’t mean that everything that isn’t directly from the wild is necessarily bad or unsafe for them. Yes, there is a risk with everything - you take a risk walking, because you could trip and hit your head. My point is; you can’t wrap yourself in bubble wrap and never leave your house because of the fact that there’s a very, very slight risk that you’ll never come back again. I think we’re getting too caught up on the whole risk part, and not focusing enough on okay well just how much of a risk is there? And that’s what I’m trying to get at. Sand is safe just as walking to work or class is safe. Is there a risk that maybe, something bad will happen? Sure thing, but you have a better chance at winning the euro millions. 

I absolutely do believe that water baths should be frowned upon, and *should only be used as an absolute last resort* if all other methods (offering them a sand bath, wiping them down with a cloth) fail. I understand they pets and that people only want the best. But what’s best for them isn’t wrapping them up in bubble wrap, forcing them to engage in unnatural activity’s (again let me stress unless absolutely necessary if medically required) and denying them of natural behaviour as a result. And yes, I am certainly of the opinion that we should be actively discouraging people from bathing hedgehogs and should be recommending sand baths instead.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay I agree whole heartedly that sand baths ARE important dont take it as I'm saying they aren't. And I agree people aren't told about it enough and that it should be used.

But you have to bare in mind that baths will clean baceria and germs off the hedgehog. 
Its like we wouldnt use just a damp cloth and deoderant to clean ourselves and call us clean. 
Hedgehogs are pets, and therefor should be cleaned properly sometimes - I am not saying monthly is totally right, and obviously we try to keep them as close to natural as possible still, but for hygine reasons it is important to actually clean them, especially those who own a hedgehog and have children.

Its like never washing your dog or cat when they have possibly been rolling around in fox poo outside that wouldnt be deemed wrong and it would be done for hygine.


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## Brooke Lancelot (Jan 30, 2019)

My boy anoints the sand. So I don't think sand baths are for mine either


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I’m really not trying to be a pain, and I hope you’re taking none of this personally!but I don’t think you can possibly compare a hedgehog to something the likes of a dog or cat for a multitude of reasons. Primary being climate in their natural habitat, cost type, etc. Even so; I don’t know of anyone who recommends regularly bathing of dogs, and certainly not cats. I have a dog, I also have two cats. My dog swims for starters (because she’s a dog, not a hedgehog) but if you’re talking about bathing her with shampoo; we wash her once a year unless she’s rolled in something particularly disgusting. One of my cats is 20 years old (who I grew up with, we’ve had since a kitten). I actually couldn’t tell you the last time we washed her was. 

Dogs (and cats) and hedgehogs aren’t comparible because like I mentioned, they (cats and dogs) are pretty much designed to get wet. Hedgehogs are from the desert; they are not. 

My point is; Coat type aside (which is a major factor, by the way), Bathing cats and dogs is an absolute last resort when nothing else works. I’m not saying you can’t ever, ever wash your hedgehog. It just shouldn’t be your (general speaking you) the go-to for a dirty hedgehog, like it is for many. If you have a hog that for whatever reasons anoints with faeces; get a damp towel and scrub their quills that way. Offer them a sand bath (which they should have access to anyway), and allow them to groom themselves. Those with children (and those without!) should wash their hands after handling the animal. This applies to all animals, not just hogs. We do not wash hamsters, rabbits, guinea pigs, chinchillas, etc in water just because someone has kids - and make no mistake about it, these animals can also have disgusting habits including nesting in their toilet. For whatever reason, people are much more lenient with hogs - and I think it is absolutely predominantly due to the huge amount of misinformation spread about bathing hogs. 

So to be clear; bathing hedgehogs is acceptable if done as at absolute last resort or if medically required. But we need to be much more clear with this with people, and stress the importance of offering sand baths. My personal opinion is; if you have to ask when to wash your hog, you don’t need to wash them because they obviously aren’t dirty at all and you’ve (again, general speaking haha) have clearly been misinformed into thinking that this is some sort of norm for hedgehog care - when it isn’t, and it shouldn’t be. Even a hog who has anointed with something disgusting can (in most cases) be wiped down with a warm rag - there are very, very few cases that require genuine bathing.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

You know I've decided that hedgehogs shouldnt have baths full stop. Sand baths or water baths. Your wrong either way !!

Cant wash hedgehogs in water its bad for them, they arent desinsged for water and its oh so bad

Cant give hedgehog sand baths its bad for them, they can close their noses so they get all kind of problems mostly respitory issues and it gets stuck in genteitals, but mainly only on boys.

Sorry I'm sounding very bitter, I know. But honestly right now I am. I'm being had a go at for asking my friend about sands baths (because they know more than me) and then theres here saying that water baths are wrong too.

You know what, I think all hedgehogs shouldnt be aloud as pets until there is proper information out there.

Sorry I am sound so much more bitter than I wanted to. Ignore me if you like.


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## Aj.t (Jan 29, 2019)

Let’s all remember that these forums are put in place to help every type of animal caretaker and to introduce new ideas and topics, not to beat a dead horse 🙂 ultimately, animal care is solely up to the animal caretaker and should be assessed accordingly!


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I think you need to take a breather, and walk away from the computer for a bit. 

Sand baths and hedgehogs isn’t the norm in the English community, and even those otherwise knowledgeable on hedgehogs possess extreme ignorance on the topic. I’m not saying that that’s a bad thing - we are always learning, and mistakes are just a part of life and pet care - I’m saying it because it’s fact. With new ideas, comes reluctance - I’m apart of many pet forums, and this is unfortunate reality. But we absolutely have to be open to new info, otherwise this whole pet keeping and forum thing is utterly useless if our main goal isn’t to always learn as we go, and to introduce new standards accordingly.

I think we need to give our spikey friends a bit more credit towards their intelligence.  They are not stupid, and know what sand is. Nobody is laying out carpets for them so they don’t have to encounter sand in the wild, and they manage just fine. The issue is people wanting to bubble wrap their pets, thinking they’re doing them good, when they’re actually potentially doing them harm and denying them of something that is perfectly natural to them. 

Hedgehogs should not be bathed in water for any reason other than medical or again, like I’ve mentioned a million times in this thread (and will do so a million more if I have to) all other methods (sand bath, warm rag) fail at cleaning them. I’m sorry, and it’s ntohing personal to you or your friends, but anyone who argues otherwise is either genuinely misinformed or is ignorant towards sand baths and hogs in general.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

No I'm not taking what your saying personally. Sorry. I shouldnt type post in rage. That was stupid of me haha. 

I'm still a bit new to this, and it just feels to me like theres so much information that is always wrong. Like all this. I was told sand baths are wrong because they dont have that instinct, and unlike anmilas such as chinchilla's who can close their noses to block the dust and sand getting in, hedgehogs cant. And apparently its proven by vets - But I think all vets again have differnt opions on it so It probably depends on what vet you ask and where they come from. 

I dont actually use either. Holly hates baths and when I asked on forums and friends no one gave me alternatives - I actually ended up just getting damp cloths for her nails and damp soft toothbrush for her quills and wiping the bits that were needed which stressed Holly out less. But I was told thats wrong too.
People seem to talk a lot about baths. And I dont really see why myself, I only put Holly in foot baths twice and then washed a few areas of quills at the same time that did need it.

Someone suggested a soil bath using a specific type because it helps prevent mites.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I’m familiar with using earth for mite preventative; diatomaceous earth, right? I add it occasionally to my hamsters sand baths, because I’m very much so involved with the natural community and the thought of a mite outbreak installs fear into me haha. 

Anyways; Believe me, I am very much new to the hedgehog community. I keep other small pets; 4 rabbits, 5 hamsters so I’m not new to forums, but I am new to this one. I adopted my Coco in November just gone - but I know from being a part of other small animal communities, to take what the English speaking ones say with a grain of salt. Not to be offensive in any way, but English speaking forums are notorious for slacking in small animal care and for providing info that is nothing more than someone’s opinion vs info based on natural habitat/behaviour, and what the animal actually requires. One example is seen here, with the lack of knowledge:general awareness of the importance of sand baths, and another lays with cage size. Here, the minimum is 2 x 2 C&C cage (to my knowledge, anyway) - which is crazy insane for such an active animal. In Germany, the absolute bare minimum is 120cm x 60cm (though they strive for much larger) and many Swiss have them free range altogether. 

As nice as it would be haha, Vets unfortunately cannot always be trusted: there is no studies nor proof to say that offering sand baths is detrimental to their health. They are naturally very clean animals, and denying them of a sand bath would be like denying a human of a shower - and I know of many who would claim it to be cruel. It’s very unfortunate that their denied a very basis behaviour because of some very, very over-exaggerated risks that are next to non-existent, that’s how low of a risk they are. Vets can of course be entitled to their own opinion, and can believe they’re dangerous if they so wish. But you (general) can’t create your own facts. And while you can have your opinion that pigs can fly, and thy sand baths are dangerous and too risky to use, it doesn’t mean your right. 

The English communities are very misinformed when it comes to bathing hedgehogs - and that’s okay, we all make mistakes. For the longest time before I adopted Coco, I thought bathing hedgehogs was just part of hedgehog care and didn’t even know that hogs needed sand baths - and I’m afraid this is the unfortunate reality for many, due to the continuous spread of said misinformation on these forums. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t change these standards and turn them around for the better.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Yes that was the soil they suggested.
I've never owned other small animlas although my mum owned a rabbit - which she never washed but did keep the cage clean haha.
I joined a facebook group (based on all UK knowledge) to get more information. And then when I was searching I found this site and actually I learn and get more correct information on here than I do on the facebook group !! But I'm always told very conflicting things that gets very confusing.

But I do think people do miss judge the English and their pet care a bit, I think a lot of it is over exaggerated.
I'm not just saying this because I'm from the UK, but there are quite a lot of people who do try to encourage sand baths, and a lot more space. But not everyone has huge amounts of spaces or can afford such large enclosures definitely not cheap. Also its not always safe to have them running around and we want to keep them safe.

I dont really know what to do. Holly doesnt have any baths at the moment I just wipe her feet with damp cloths to keep her feet clean because she wont clean them herself.
Someone said I should just give her a natural set up using mainly soil with chichilla sand mixed in and a cultre of clean up crew inscets running around apparently its the best set up and enourages natural cleaning more. Not 100% sure on it


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## akitka (Aug 10, 2018)

The absolute minimum cage requirement generally quoted on this forum is 8 square feet, so 4x4 feet. I’ve never heard anyone say 2x2 is acceptable, that seems tiny. Anyways, If you have any links to other non-English forums or resources I would love it if you could share them, It sounds like they might have better information. Or if you could share any more about German hedgehog care standard I would appreciate hearing about that as well, I’m looking to improve my hedgehogs life as much as possible.


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## Brooke Lancelot (Jan 30, 2019)

My hedgie swims in the pool every day. And he loves it. Since its so hot here, it helps him cool off a bit. He enjoys it. He'll even head there on his own when I put him outside. He's never unsupervised... Is this bad?


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

When I say English speaking forums, I am predominantly referring those with a heavy US-based membership, who are unfortunately not well known for preaching high standards of small pet care. Heck Irish people are not knkw for high standards of small animal care; I'm Irish, but that doesn't mean that there are expeditions. It's just in general I prefer to stick to German forums in particular - not to say that I don't question them at all! Because I'm a Corliss person, and like the knkw the source of info I read - but I just prefer them I've english speaking forums in general. I feel they have more of a focus of providing the animal a more natural way of life, which I appreciate.

My Coco has a 3 x 2 C&C that we affectionately call her "den", which is fleece. I cut a doorway in the coroplast so she effectively free ranges the room, but her den is her safe space where her wheel, litter tray, heat lamp and bed is. I do offer her a more naturalistic way of life in the form of a dig box, which is a low 80cm x 50cm box from Ikea. I fill it with peat moss, coco fibre, fry moss, coco bark, and leaves and she has a blast foraging in it!

I really would recommend offering Holly a sand bath. You can do so using a corner litter tray or something like a baking tray. Zooplus have some high quality sands, with which I've never had a problem with.

@Akitka; i'll Get some links for you when I'm home, it's jist difficult to do on mobile haha. I actually don't see a minimum of 8 square feet stressed enough - I usually see 4 square feet, unfortunately. Maybe it's not on this forum, but I have watched many YouTubers (who I never trust for info btw, mainly out of boredom and interest haha) preach such a horrible standard.



Brooke Lancelot said:


> My hedgie swims in the pool every day. And he loves it. Since its so hot here, it helps him cool off a bit. He enjoys it. He'll even head there on his own when I put him outside. He's never unsupervised... Is this bad?


I sincerely hope that you are not serious. Allowing a hedgehog to swim is already a bad idea, but allowing them to swim in a chlorinated pool is horrendous. He can't tell you he enjoys it; they don't swim for leisure, they swim for survival. There are far safer alternatives that don't involve stressing out your hedgehog that you can implement to cool him down. wrap a frozen water bottle in a towel or blanket and place it in the cage to cool the air temp.


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## Brooke Lancelot (Jan 30, 2019)

But why does he return to the pool everytime I take him out?


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Like I said before; it depends on the hog. If your hedgehog isn’t messy and keeps clean well, then sand baths could be a good option. But if your hedgehog is dirty and gives you hives when you touch it, then water baths are a great idea. Also, Chinchilla sand is made with dust which is why it is used for chinchillas lol. I would probably switch which type of sand you are using

As for what akikta said, Germany does often lead in pet care standards. The habitats and enclosures they offer hogs is often a good choose for them if you want to try that out. It’s pretty simply to look up German APH care. Just search “afrikanisch weißbauchigel” and you’ll find a bunch of non-English websites. You can use google translate to find out what they are saying. It might not be exactly what they are saying, but you’ll get the gist of what they are trying to say lol.

They have insanely large hedgehog enclosures in Germany and will refer to them as “terrariums.” They also have bio-active/naturalistic hedgehog enclosures in Germany too. I think it’s a great idea, but not sure if I’m ready to try it out yet lol. A youtuber named Tyler Rugge (English youtuber) is the only youtuber I could find with a bio active enclosure. They are really good because you don’t have to clean them, and your hedgehog can dig for bugs like they do in the wild! Anyways, I hope this helped. 😉


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## belties (Oct 2, 2018)

Ok this is very simple. Hedge hogs are mostly but not exclussively dessert animals . Sorry people but there is sand in the dessert and at some times of the year it does rain. Now we also have to look at the life expectancy of wild hedgehogs. How many do not survive particles getting stuck and from dry skin ,which in a dessert would seam like a constant issue. Truth be known we have know idea of ether . Alpacas love dust baths,most people say never wash an alpaca because their hair will rot off. 20 years of mine standing in the pasture grazing in the pouring down rain and guess what,they still have hair. It is like everything else, to much is bad but ether in moderation is not much of a problem.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

My hedgehog absolutely loves baths actually. It’s wrong of you to say they don’t lol. Every hedgehog is different and just because it works for you, doesn’t mean that it will work for everybody else. There is no right or wrong here. There are obviously ways to moisturize your hedgehog’s skin. Just like we humans have to moisturize our dry skin. What you are doing isn’t the right thing for everybody. It may work for you, but not for everybody else. My hedgehog is disgusting lol. He has VERY thick poop boots every day and hedgehogs don’t have the arms to properly scrub all of the poop away lol. They usually just roll around in the sand (enrichment), unlike tenrecs who properly scrub themselves. This is why if your hedgehog is usually quite clean, this is great option. But a lot of people’s hedgehogs aren’t. I break out in hives when I touch my hedgehog. There is no right or wrong when giving them baths. Let’s remember that there are several correct ways to care for hedgehogs. 🙂


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Holly is pretty clean minus her feet and thats only on some days thats not all the time. She does get a bit messy on her quills sometimes but Its not often.

I've seen loads of naturalisct hedgehog enclosures, and they all look amazing. Less work on you too because you dont have to change it, and the hedgehogs love it. They still need baths at times specially on their feet.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Then sand baths might be a great idea for you! You should try it out and see if you like it.

Germany hedgehog care isn't very different from ours. There are really only three big differences. One being sand baths. Germans preach sand baths and don't believe in giving hedgehogs water baths. They also have different enclosures. They keep their hogs in large tanks. They recommend a leveled 4 square feet enclosure in Germany with at least two levels. We have the same thing here, but usually only have one floor with 8 square feet of floor space and we keep them in cages opposed to large leveled tanks. The only reason they keep them in tanks is because the bared wire causes injury. If you use Coroplast or a tall plastic bottom, that isn't much of an issue lol. The third thing is that they don't believe in fleece and prefer to make it more natural. The only reason I personally use fleece is because it's washable and it's safer. Naturalistic enclosures do require a lot of work (unless it's bio active.) I'll leave a link of how to set up a bio active/naturalistic enclosure if anybody here is interested. &#128578;

YouTube tutorial: 




Blog: https://www.google.com/amp/hedgehog...11220171/bioactive-hedgehog-habitats-pt-1/amp


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I think it's wrong of you to label bathing hedgehogs as a "great idea" if they're dirty or give you hives. I haven't seen a hedgehog so filthy that a sand bath or warm rag couldn't solve, but hey, maybe your guy is different - and that may well be the case, but my point is is that it's certainly not the norm, because they are generally very clean animals who keep themselves so. Bathing a hog because it gives you hives is just plain silly. Get a warm rag, and rub them down. If you (general you) are _that_ allergic to your hog that even that does not suffice, they are not the pet for you because it is totally unfair to subject them to monthly baths that they don't gain any benefit from.

I don't know how you could possibly come to the conclusion that your hedgehog "loves" baths. They swim or float; that's a survival instinct. They are not designed to swim, so yes I do actually think I can say that if you hedgehog had the choice, they would rather you not soak them in a bath. I don't see how you could possibly argue otherwise. Does it rain in the desert? I'm sure it does. But occasional rainfall (that they can curl up or take other shelter during) vs bath.. not comparable haha.

I don't own tenrecs, nor do I have any experience with them - but just because they don't use them the exact same way doesn't mean they don't use them for the same purpose. Again; chinchillas use sand baths differently to hamsters who use it differently to gerbils and so fourth - none of these species bathe using the same method, but they all use sand baths to bathe. Hedgehogs _do_ use sand baths to clean themselves, and they are a necessary item for any average, healthy hog.

I'm not even going to get into moisutring in the bath, because they shouldn't be bathed in water period (because I don't want this point to get lost: _unless medically required_). I don't want to get repetitive, so unless I feel like a response is needed, I'm likely going to leave this here. To conclude; I don't even believe that it's a matter of opinion, I believe it's a matter of facts that got lost in this community somewhere ; hedgehogs should not be bathed in water (see above for exceptions ^), and should be offered sand baths and if required, wipe them down with a warm, wet rag if necessary.

TL;DR: bathing hogs in water should be frowned upon, they should be actively discouraged in the vast majority of circumstances, it shouldn't be the norm, and we need to stress the importance of sand baths more. 

Just to add: someone suggested i switch sands because chinchilla sand = dust. I am over a decade in the hamster community, and an advocate for natural enclosures; sand and dust are two very different things, and the particular sand i use has an extremely low dust content - and my hog thoroughly enjoys it.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Well I'll have a look around for a good sand to do it and see how she reacts at first she may not like it yet.

Sometimes I consider the active bio set ups, but then I'm not sure I like th thought of leaveing live insects in there all 
I dont like fleece as bedding I prefer animal safe shredded cardboard I feel it allows natural burrowing better, but thats just me.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

I’m so glad that your hedgehog enjoys sand baths! That doesn’t mean that it thoroughly cleans them. Also hedgehogs don’t live in the desert. They live in the savanna. In winter, Savannas are VERY wet apposed to summer when they are dry. Savannas and deserts are two completely different things... On top of that, I’m not “allergic” to my hedgehog. I don’t get hives when my hedgehog is clean. My hedgehog loves water and doesn’t even try to get out of the water when I’m bathing him.

All hedgehogs are different. Not all hedgehogs groom themselves and stay clean. I’m glad your hedgehog does, but that doesn’t mean everybody else’s does. What you are saying isn’t a matter of “facts.” The truth of the matter is: hedgehogs can be perfectly fine and healthy either way. Water baths can give them dry skin, but obviously there are several ways to moisturize them making it not an issue AT ALL. But thank you for your opinion!


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

A hedgehog’s paws aren’t as flexible as hamster or tenrec paws and cannot thoroughly clean themselves with just sand baths. And even if you ARE going to use sand baths, they should only be given once a month which definitely isn’t enough to clean my hedgie. The best a sand bath can really do is clean poop boots, but they definitely cannot get in between their quills because like I said before, hedgehogs do not have flexible paws. If it works for you, that’s amazing! But for you to say that water baths should be “frowned upon” is definitely untrue.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

If you give your hedgehog a sand bath more than once a month, then THAT’S where respiratory issues come in, so please don’t do that.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Hedgehog hoves isnt a allergic reaction. Its a reaction to urine and poo on their quills that our bodies naturally react in a itchy rash which isnt like a allergic reaction.

An allergic reaction you'd get a differnt sort of rath that last longer and appears all the time even if the hdegjog is clean. Both really itch and both look like differnt, but they are not the same.

Some hedgehogs love water and others it stresses them out. I dont think giving them a water bath should be forwned up. But maybe there should be more informtion around about sandbaths.
Honestly its all opions, and what people think, theres no real facts that sand baths are actually all that helpful for an aph. But giving them baths does help with actually cleaning them. For both the owner and the hedgehogs benefit. Its easy to fix dry skin.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Shaymin_Lover said:


> If you give your hedgehog a sand bath more than once a month, then THAT'S where respiratory issues come in, so please don't do that.


Okay, sorry but I have to ask; how have you come to this conclusion?

A sand bath is offered to my hedgehog, 24/7 - and I know of many others who do the same. I have never encountered any problems, nor have I have heard of there being a limit on sand baths.

Edit; Again haha, I wholeheartedly disagree with you stating that me labelling water baths to be frowned upon is "untrue", however I think statements such as that hedgehogs enjoy baths, and that bathing them is a great idea, are absolutely untrue statements to make for certainly an upwards of 90% (if not more) cases. They should not be bathed in water, and clean themselves just fine with sand alone and if necessary, a warm rag can be used. I hate be repetitive, but water baths should not be encouraged on forums and absolutely need to be frowned upon if they are not medically required or being used as a last resort. They are perfectly capable of removing dirt from their quills - if you've seen them use a sand bath, they roll around and it is quite obviously an instinctive reaction to groom themselves and it removes dirt perfectly well.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Like I said multiple times, that’s just for you. You already stated that your hedgehog keeps itself clean, so sand baths work for you personally. 

Hedgehogs have an extremely sensitive respiratory system and should only be offered a sand bath once a month at most. If you give it to them more than that, then that’s unhealthy.

Please explain to me why water baths aren’t good for them besides for dry skin which can be easily managed. Do you have any real explanation?


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Hedgehogs in general - not just mine - are clean animals; they like to keep themselves clean. If your hedgehog is so filthy that it requires a water bath, it is not the norm and is a rare case. This is what I'm trying to imply; it not me that is the rare exception, it is actually anyone who claims their hedgehog absolutely needs to be bathed in water because nothing else will clean them.

Hedgehogs have sensitive respiratory systems. Again, I'm gonna bring back in small animals; hamsters are sensitive, gerbils are sensitive, degus are sensitive - all these animals *require* sand baths and do not have any problems. Hedgehogs *do not* have problems with being offered sand baths 24/7, and it is completely false to claim that offering them sand any more than once a month will indefinitely or likely cause a URI when there is no such evidence proving so.

Hedgehogs shouldn't be bathed in water, and I'm not sure why this point keeps getting argued? Aside from dry skin issues, they just aren't designed to get wet. They don't come from a climate that would require it to the extent of a bath, they can't swim, they don't enjoy it, they'll catch a cold if you don't thoroughly dry them off, I could go on for days. I keep stating this same point over and over again, but I feel like it's getting ignored; *hedgehogs instinctively use sand baths to clean themselves, they do not use water.*

Sand baths are how hogs clean themselves, not water baths. This isn't opinion; it's fact. I think I will really end my posts here on this particular topic; I feel like I'm just repeating myself over and over haha.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Haha, you are really taking what I am saying out of context, aren’t you? First of all, I never said that it’s rare for a hedgehog to keep themselves clean. I merely stated that all hedgehogs are different. It isn’t rare for a hedgehog to be dirty. It also isn’t rare for a hedgehog to keep clean. Like I said, every hedgehog is different. 

Where did you get the idea that “hedgehogs aren’t built for it?” What evidence do you have to prove that? It really just seems like you thought of that out of nowhere. There hasn’t been any serious research about hedgehogs in their natural environment for you to prove that. And in my opinion, if they can handle sopping wet soil/sand in the wild, then they can probably handle water. Hedgehogs have a more sensitive respiratory system than that of hamsters and tenrecs. Again, I’ve no idea where you are getting this information from.

Do you have any actual evidence to prove that water baths are bad for them? Bad enough to cause actual health issues? Aside from the fact that hedgehogs need to be dried. It’s extremely easy to dry off a hedgehog, so I do not understand how that can be an issue to anybody.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I'm really not trying to be smart; you've held your hedgehog, I'm sure you're well familiar with their anatomy and physiology. They are clearly not designed to take a soaking. Wild European hedgehogs, for example, are known to dislike the rain and typically only venture out if they're hungry or if they're feeling brave enough. There is little known about african hogs; but I think it's a stretch to say that they're swimming around in puddles all day, and likely move to higher up areas where it's drier and stay sheltered during rainfall.
.
Hedgehogs are fine to deal with sand; it will not cause problems. No, not even in animals with sensitive upper respiratory systems. There is zero evidence to conclude that chinchilla sand poses any measurable risk to them whatsoever like you believe. I will again ask for your evidence behind your claim that offering sand more than once a month puts them at increased risk of a URI.
.
Bathing hedgehogs in water is stressful and yes, you could actually argue that it could therefore cause health issues. Stress lowers ones immune system; therefore bathing a hedgehog in water is potentially detrimental to their health. There is no evidence to say that they enjoy it, and I frankly think it's rather stupid to bathe them in water unless again it's medically required and/or literally nothing else will clean them - but the latter is an extremely rare scenario, certainly not the norm.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Stress? I haven’t heard anybody ever claim that their hedgehog had any problems with stress caused by bathing in water. My hedgehog doesn’t even mind water. He certainly isn’t “stressed” by it. He has been bathed in water since birth and doesn’t know of anything different. If he was actually stressed, he would show signs of being stressed which isn’t the case. He always eats normally and I have experienced no issues with him at all.

What you are saying isn’t scientifically proven and until you are able to prove to me that water baths are bad for them, I will continue to use them. “Maybe,” “if,” and “probably” isn’t that believable.

I certainly have never heard of a hedgehog having health issues because they’re bathed in water. I would also appreciate it if you wouldn’t say that water baths are “dangerous” our should be “frowned upon.” You clearly do not have any evidence to conclude so and are just spouting out things that you have heard from a German website. So, it actually is not a “fact” as you keep saying. What evidence do you have to prove so? I’m not going to argue with you anymore until you can provide actual evidence.

By the way, thank you for taking what I said out of context yet again. Please show me where I said, “African hedgehogs swim around in puddles all day.” I don’t remember saying that. All I remember saying is that the sand/soil they bathe in is very damp in the winter.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Sand baths are amazing as an enrichment activity, but definitely shouldn’t be done often and used as your #1 method of cleaning them, unless of course your hedgehog is already quite clean. It is very common for a hedgehog to be messy as well as it’s common for a hedgehog to be very clean. Like I’ve had to say countless times, every hedgehog is different.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

You are being incredibly hypocritical. You have asked me for sources, when you can't even provide them for your own statements. You can't provide a single "scientifically backed" statement to show how horrible sand baths are with causing URI is hedgehogs. You accuse me of "sprouting" info from German forums - and all you have done is parroted back info from English ones. You are upset that I've called water baths dangerous, when all you have done is labelled sand baths as essentially guaranteed health risks.

There are scientific studies to prove stress lowers the immune system. Hedgehogs do not naturally bathe in water, thus it is logically likely that they experience some degree of stress being bathed in water - thus putting them at risk of illness. You know very well that there are no studies on this sort of thing (similarly to how there are none on the safety of sand baths) on African Pygymy Hedgehogs. I don't see how you could claim that you are 101% certain that your hedgehog experiences no stress whatsoever when being bathed in water, when logically it is not a natural experience for them and there is highly likely some level of stress involved. Hedgehogs will float on their backs because they've learned that flipping over is unpleasant - this isn't always a relaxed behaviour; it can be a learnt behaviour to avoid a stressful and unpleasant situation.

If you really want science to back up everything we do with hedgehogs, you're in for a wild ride. As a bioveterinary student, I love science - I love facts. But there is so little known on these animals that you are never going to find the answers you want. So when we can't have studies, what do we use? We use logic. *and there is zero logic to bathing a hedgehog in water.*

Bathing hedgehogs in water is not natural, its not a great idea, it's not necessary in the majority of situations, and has the potential to pose a risk to their health. I will not apologise for stating what I firmly believe to be the truth.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Nothing we do is naturally. Fleece lined enclousures arent natural whees arent natural litter tays arent natural. Nothing we do is natural. Eating cat food isnt natural
So why is it only baths your saying should be frowned upon. Thats not logical. 

Neither of you have any evidence of anything there for non of it is facts its all opinions based on what you have been told or found. Non if this is facts. 

Some hedgehogs do get stressed by water and yes strees does lower immune systems not just in hedgehogs.
Other hedgehogs dont get stressed by them, and do actually like swimming.

Some hedgehogs keep themselves clean and dont need baths
Other hedgehogs are super messy and do need to be properly cleaned. 

Personally I think this whole thing should be dropped now, because it has gone very far.
Everything to do with hedgehog care will be opions as there is so little research done. Unless you have actual proof its not a fact simple as.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

This is what I’m talking about. There really is no right answer here. I heard from several people that sand baths cause respiratory issues. You read from several German websites that water baths aren’t good. So either way, one of them can POSSIBLY cause a health issue. But if you think about it “logically,” anything we do to them can cause health issues. Obviously there’s an insanely small chance, but it’s possible.

There would have to be a large amount of stress if anything would actually happen. My hedgehog is at a healthy weight, so I can only assume using “logic” that he is perfectly healthy.

If your argument is that it isn’t “natural,” so it causes stress; then I suppose everything we do to hedgehogs is stressful. We keep them in cages, they eat and drink out of ceramic bowls, they run on wheels, they live indoors in America opposed to living in the savanna in Africa... yet this doesn’t cause stress? Why would water cause any more stress than everything else listed here? 

There really isn’t anything wrong about either of these and for you to claim that there is; it just wouldn’t be true. I’m only streamed because you’re telling me how to take care of my animal when what I’m doing is perfectly safe.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

You're reaching.

You can't compare feeding them in captivity vs the wild to bathing them in water vs offering them a sand bath. We feed them high quality cat food _that provides them with the nutrients and vitamins that they require, and would obtain from wild prey_. We can't feed them what they would have in the wild; but we aim to provide for it as close as captivity will allows us (which is not very close, but you get the point). We provide them with wheels because unless you have them free range (and even so) it is impossible to allow them to run the same distances that they would cover in the wild. Most aspects of hedgehog care in captivity actually are attempting (keyword; attempt, not replicate to the exact) to meet behaviours/needs they have in the wild. Bathing hedgehogs in water... you're going down a whole other road altogether. Feeding hedgehogs cat food, offering them wheels, providing them with lamps - there's logic to it; we are attempting to meet wild requirements in captivity. Bathing hedgehogs in water is absolutely entirely illogical. And frankly to argue that feeding them cat food and offering them a wheel - to attempt to meet wild needs in captivity - is as stressful as bathing in water - a completely unnatural activity ... it's a tad silly, don't you think?

This debate has ran its course, and it's now going down a rather silly road with incredibly flawed and illogical arguments.

Also; im not telling you how to take care of your animals, not at all actually. I never held a gun to your head and forced you to stop bathing your hog. I'm simply bringing the topic to the table and you can do whatever you want with it; your hog, your choice. When I see something I disagree with, or something I personally believe to be misinformation being spread, I am naturally going to speak up for anyone to listen. Accusing me of demanding that you look after your hog a certain way is like me accusing you of demanding that I remove my hedgehogs sand bath lol.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

I wasn’t trying to say what you are doing is wrong, I’m merely saying that both ways are perfectly safe if done correctly.

Yes, cat food and wheels somewhat maintain a hedgehogs natural behavior, but not entirely. I don’t see hedgehogs running in pretty plastic wheels or eating cat food (with vitamins, several cooked meats, compacted into kibble, ect.) in the wild lol. Water baths definitely aren’t what they have in the wild, but they try to keep themselves groomed in the wild and anoint so that they don’t attract predators. Water baths aren’t how they clean themselves in the wild, but like cat food and wheels, it’s still perfectly safe and keeps them healthy. Obviously, nothing we do to a hedgehog is completely natural which is fine. They definitely aren’t stressed from baths more than they would be from anything else and it’s a bit silly to think that way. Anyways, I agree that this “debate” has run its course.

I think we should both agree on the fact that we don’t know enough about hedgehogs to conclude wether or not sand baths or water baths are harmful. There hasn’t been any major health issues caused by either method of bathing them, so I’d assume that both ways are perfectly safe. Obviously, there is an extremely small chance that a health issue can be caused, but you can really apply that to anything we do.


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## Mecki (Nov 4, 2017)

akitka said:


> The absolute minimum cage requirement generally quoted on this forum is 8 square feet, so 4x4 feet. I've never heard anyone say 2x2 is acceptable, that seems tiny. Anyways, If you have any links to other non-English forums or resources I would love it if you could share them, It sounds like they might have better information. Or if you could share any more about German hedgehog care standard I would appreciate hearing about that as well, I'm looking to improve my hedgehogs life as much as possible.


8 square feet is 4' by 2'
8 feet square is 8' by 8'

The recommendation for hedgehogs is 8 square feet (2' by 4'). Just clarifying the math here.


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## Brooke Lancelot (Jan 30, 2019)

Actually, it is scientificly proven that some do enjoy water and all hedgehogs can swim. 

The reason why they don't swim is cause water is scarce to come by in the wild. 

You're being irrational and you're not open minded at all. It's like arguing with a rock. And this topic is installing me with rage, so I will stop reading it. Even ignore it from now on. I think the administrator should do something about this cause the same things has been repeated over and over again and its getting silly.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

They already agreed to stop. I think that its safe to say that everyone should stop. If you want admin to close the thread to stop anyone adding something then you should contact an admin to ask them. Or if they see this and feel that its needed then they will do so.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Allowing your hedgehog to swim in a pool is plain idiotic. I'm sorry, but that is just absolutely ridiculous. 

I'm not closed-minded at all. I'm actually very open-minded; questioning things before you believe them isn't a crime, you know. I'm just being fed incredibly flawed, and silly arguments that aren't convincing me that bathing hedgehogs is a natural, "great idea" to partake in and that offering a desert species a sand bath (that they instinctively use to groom themselves) is a guaranteed health risk to offer 24/7. Ya'll claim sand goes up their nose; and what, water doesn't? Lol. They are a desert species. They are far more accustomed to sand occasional going up their nose (which they can remove by the way, if that happens) than water (which in case you're forgetting; dry drowning, anyone?). I doubt an actual scientific study has been conducted on how much hedgehogs enjoy swimming like you're implying, but feel free to add the link if you have one. Look; I'm not denying that hedgehogs are able to swim. I'm stating that they swim as a survival instinct, and is no something that any average hog partakes in for leisure purposes like you're implying. 

To further reiterate; African hedgehogs need sand baths. Their (sand bath) importance need to be emphasised more, and the scaremongering with sand baths needs to stop. 

I'm not saying anymore on the topic. I've said all I need to say, and have nothing more to stay to someone who accuses me of being equal to "arguing with a rock" while they continuously allow their hedgehog to swim in a swimming pool.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

... you haven’t learned anything from this? Why in the world do APH need sand baths? The answer is: you don’t know, you really don’t. And to sit here and repeat over and over that sand baths are a must and that water baths are “dangerous” is just plain silly and even a little idiotic. You don’t have any proof of this, so I would just hold your tongue.

It’s actually annoying having to read this over and over and over and having to ask you again and again for proof that you just can’t provide. Sand baths aren’t dangerous. They may be, but there hasn’t been any research done to prove that. Same goes with water baths. “Logic” just doesn’t apply in this situation. Thank you for your opinion, but I’d appreciate if you left this conversation alone.

Also, I have never said ONCE that bathing hedgehogs in water was natural OR a great idea. The number of times you have taken what I have said out of context is just ridiculous.

By the way, how many times do I have to correct you? Hedgehogs are NOT desert species. A desert and a savanna are COMPLETELY different.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Okay, I apologise for tripping up on desert vs savanna species. My point is; they're from a dry climate, where it doesn't rain frequently and where they have been observed preferring to stay in dry, sheltered areas. They are from sandy regions; they instinctually use sand to bathe - in the wild, and in captivity - and to say we have no proof and do not know of the benefits of a sand bath and that offering them more than once a month is dangerous, just because we have no fancy scientific paper to state otherwise.. now _that's _idiotic.

Once again, _I_ would personally suggest that you stop demanding scientific proof when you can't provide your own. You're being hypocritical, once again haha. Read through your posts; you've continuously made statements on sand baths (i.e suggesting that offering them more than once a month is pretty much deadly) and you're calling _me_ an idiot for suggesting that water baths are a potential health hazard. You see why i can't take you seriously, right? and saying that we can't use logic... oof, I have no words.

Psst,, you also have said that bathing hedgehogs is a great idea here, I'll get it for you:
"But if your hedgehog is dirty and gives you hives when you touch it, then water baths are a great idea." < if you get hives from petting your hedgehog, bathing them for this reason alone is just outright stupid.

I would suggest that if you're so annoyed by my posts to just not read this thread. I was perfectly content with dropping this conversation - but if you want to keep bringing it backup; be my guest.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Haha, you really don’t know what you are talking about at all. Deserts are dry all year round. Savannahs are not. They are extremely wet during the summer seasons. I already agreed that sand baths may not be dangerous, but you are still pretending like I think otherwise. Like I have said numerous times... THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT CAN SUPPORT WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY. There is no evidence that sand baths OR water baths can be dangerous.

It’s hard to think that somebody who doesn’t even know the difference between a savannah and a desert can really tell me that water baths are dangerous and that sand baths are a must. You have zero evidence to prove this and are just inferencing the “fact” that water baths are bad for them using the very little and incorrect knowledge you know about their natural habitat.

Sorry if this comes off as rude, but I’m fed up with your consistent “arguments.” You sound like a broken record and clearly do not know what you are talking about.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

It's alright; I don't get offended by people on the internet - I frankly couldn't care less how petty you decide to be, it doesn't bother me in the slightest .Actually, I find your illogical, incredibly flawed statements and plain hypocrisy amusing - keep going if you wish.

I know the difference between the savanna and the desert, lets not get petty, hey? African hedgehogs are predominately from the Sahel zone - the transitional area between the desert and the savannas, so forgive me for getting tripped up in terminology. You're just looking for any reason to discredit me so you can continuously live in oh sweet blissful ignorance.


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## Brooke Lancelot (Jan 30, 2019)

http://hedgehogheadquarters.com/secure/bathing.htm


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Brooke Lancelot said:


> http://hedgehogheadquarters.com/secure/bathing.htm


This isn't a scientific study at all. It's merely an info page, from a site that possess outdated information and recommends feeding spikes hedgehog food.

I'm sorry, but this not any form of scientific proof like you've claimed it to be. There isn't even scientific data on sand baths, or for many aspects of hedgehog care at that. This is why we base care standards on what is most logical based off wild requirements... hence why it is illogical to state that a species predominately from the sahal - a dry region - that inhabit dry areas and shelter in caves "love" to swim, and instead suggest that it only be used as a last resort and that they should be offered sand baths instead.

ETA; Before it gets brought up again about how "wet" the sahal is (it's not as drenched as some are making it out to be); it is in a state of what is essentially drought for easily 10 months of the year. How on earth does bathing them in water make sense, and sand is some sort of alien concept?


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## Brooke Lancelot (Jan 30, 2019)

Vets and informed people wrote this. Not a Hedgehog owner like yourself. I would rather take information from a specialist before taking information from a person spending all their time fighting a losing battle on a hedghog site when almost everyone is against them..


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Yes, by all means take information *only* from people who are trained as a specialist in *medical* procedures across a wide range of species and receive little to no training on specific care and husbandry requirements of specific species, and certainly not exotics. How absolutely narrow-minded and condescending of you. By all means, shun the "just a hedgehog owner" and continue to listen to the outdated info sites from over a decade ago, who suggest you feed your hog spikes hedgehog food - a diet any informed "just a hedgehog owner" knows to be trash. But hey, they're the ones with the medical degree, right?

I'm not fighting a losing battle. If you think I'm trying to "win" anything, the jokes on you. Open-minded people will read this thread, and perhaps think twice about tossing their hedgehog in the bath or god forbid pool for a swim. I dont care who is with me or who is against me. Majority doesn't rule, and majority certainly aren't always right. If every single person did nothing more than shut up and be quiet because the majority disagreed... oof, we'd have never made it past the 1st century. You do know every single standard we have in pet care only came to be because someone spoke up and said "hey, I actually don't think we have this care aspect right", right?

if you are not open-minded, and if you are not part of a forum with the goal to learn as we go and accept that current standards may very well be wrong, and refuse to listen to anyone without a fancy title behind their name.. I dont even know what to say to you, what an absolutely horrible attitude to have.


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

Okay look You have all made your points. And you dont agree with each other. BUT carrying on this and repating yourselves is pointless. You have your own opions and that is mainly what hedgehog care is due to the fact there is so little reaserch on them.
You're points are just getting lost now and its becoming very stupid.
In all honesty EVERYONE should just stop this here and end it. At this point you've said what you wanted/needed and you know your options.

Its not wrong or bad to give water baths same as its not wrong or bad to give sand baths.
There are dangers and risks in both and I think its about what you want t do now. So just end it here. 

This is a forum where we are helping each other, and giving our opions and sharing what we do know. Not everyone agrees with each other just accept it and move on. People can take the information and make up their own minds on what they think. It does not need to be carried on any longer.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Emc said:


> Yes, by all means take information *only* from people who are trained as a specialist in *medical* procedures across a wide range of species and receive little to no training on specific care and husbandry requirements of specific species, and certainly not exotics. How absolutely narrow-minded and condescending of you. By all means, shun the "just a hedgehog owner" and continue to listen to the outdated info sites from over a decade ago, who suggest you feed your hog spikes hedgehog food - a diet any informed "just a hedgehog owner" knows to be trash. But hey, they're the ones with the medical degree, right?
> 
> I'm not fighting a losing battle. If you think I'm trying to "win" anything, the jokes on you. Open-minded people will read this thread, and perhaps think twice about tossing their hedgehog in the bath or god forbid pool for a swim. I dont care who is with me or who is against me. Majority doesn't rule, and majority certainly aren't always right. If every single person did nothing more than shut up and be quiet because the majority disagreed... oof, we'd have never made it past the 1st century. You do know every single standard we have in pet care only came to be because someone spoke up and said "hey, I actually don't think we have this care aspect right", right?
> 
> if you are not open-minded, and if you are not part of a forum with the goal to learn as we go and accept that current standards may very well be wrong, and refuse to listen to anyone without a fancy title behind their name.. I dont even know what to say to you, what an absolutely horrible attitude to have.


 Now THAT'S hypocrisy. Obviously, nobody is going to listen to somebody who doesn't know the difference between a savannah and a desert who simply cannot get a concept through their head. I find it funny that you are pretty much making fun of people at this point. It's pretty petty (what you accused me of being.) An "open-minded" person has the brain capacity to understand that what you are saying is complete and utter garbage. You have no proof to support anything you are saying and when I ask you to provide me some, you don't and comeback with a petty response such as "hypocrite." It's not even an argument at this point, just you calling people idiotic or ridiculous lol. Pretty ironic if you ask me.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Shaymin_Lover, please read though your responses - you are the biggest hypocrite of them all. I never, ever once demanded for scientific proof to back up your statements _until_ you had the audacity to demand it from me when you too, in case you've forgotten, have none.

And when you're done with that, go ahead and read through my responses - throughly, if it's not too much to ask. They are predominately from the Sahel, but by all means, if you want to focus so much on arguing over calling them a desert species - go ahead, whatever helps you sleep at night. To state that hedgehogs require a sand bath and that bathing them is mot recommended nor advisable is "garbage"... you've got me laughing out loud mate. You are laughable, get over yourself.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Im glad you think that I’m “laughable,” but to every other sane person reading... I’m sure it’s the complete opposite.

If your argument is that water baths are dangerous because they aren’t natural (completely ridiculous,) then would you agree that fleece isn’t safe because it isn’t natural?

Your “logic” just isn’t logic. It makes absolutely no sense and until you can provide me with a scientifically proved answer to your “hypothesis” that water baths are harmful to hedgehogs; there is no point to have to respect myself over and over and over again.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I think sane people are too few to come by on this thread by the looks of it, unfortunately. But yes, any open-minded person who has any functioning brain cells would look at anyone arguing over bathing an animal from a dry climate in water as laughable, yes.

Again, you are totally reaching and making idiotic statements once again. I really don't think you have any drop of logical thinking whatsoever. The argument here isnt for all natural materials, always and forever. It's for catering to natural _behaviours_. Burrowing is absolutely a natural behaviour; fleece strips, blanket piles and I am all in favour of providing foraging boxes. Bathing a hedgehog in water is incredibly likely to cause some degree of stress in the majority - if not all - hogs because it's not a natural *behaviour* for them to engage in. And you can read all the scientific papers you want on how stress is detrimental to human & animal health - there are papers out there in the thousands, knock yourself out.

I suggest you google the definition of logic, because there is nothing illogical about suggesting that a species from a dry climate should not be regularly bathed in water for any ol' reason, period.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

So your argument is that water doesn’t encourage natural behavior, making it extremely dangerous? That is what I’d call laughable. 

I’ve had to correct you numerous times, hedgehogs are used to dry and WET climates. It’s funny that this theory of yours is based solely off of their natural environment when you aren’t even aware of what their natural environment is.

Most animals don’t find it “fun” to swim, but they are CERTAINLY not stressed by it. What makes a hedgehog different? And even if the hedgehog is stressed, it would definitely not be enough to cause any health issue at all... epsicially if it’s only done once a month or less. I don’t know where you got that idea from...


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

You haven’t corrected me on their natural climate at all. Don’t get ahead of yourself.

Once again, they are predominately from the Sahel regions. For arguably 10 months of the year, these regions are as dry as a bone. For 2 months it experiences large amounts of rainfall - during the winter, which in case you have forgotten; a period when wild animals hibernate. The way you talk about them being used to a “wet” climate makes it seem as though you believe they’re swimming around Africa. Bathing them in water is not a natural behaviour, thus forcing them to engage in such a behaviour iis very much so going to be stressful for the vast majority of hedgehogs. Believing otherwise is what’s laughable. 

I also don’t believe you understand how stress is measured, I think you lack basic understanding of animal behaviour (I.e forcing them to engage in unnatural behaviour very likely - for the majority - creates some degree of stress), I think *you* lack understanding of their natural climate, nor do I believe you understand the effects stress can have on the body - and yes, you could argue that many things in captivity can cause stress... but when you can avoid it, why don’t you? 

You know what, I’m actually done with this conversation. I refuse to waste my time any further. You’ve put yourself on some sort of pedestal because i referred to them as a desert species when I know they’re from the transitional region between the desert and the savanna, and to quote someone from earlier - I’m beginning to think that i’ll have a higher chance of having an intellectual conversation with a brick wall.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Shaymin_Lover said:


> Haha, you really don't know what you are talking about at all. Deserts are dry all year round. Savannahs are not. They are extremely wet during the winter seasons.


I'm pretty sure I have corrected you.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

African Pygmy hedgehogs don’t hibernate which means that they would have to deal with the rainfall you have mentioned. You basically just debunked your whole theory if that’s your actual argument.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

I know how to measure stress and I really don’t understand how being in some water for a few minutes once a month or less can cause actual health issues.

The logic that you keep using makes absolutely no sense and these arguments are just supporting what I have to say.

I really do wonder who’s the brick wall in this conversation... (because it’s definitely not me)


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Shaymin_Lover said:


> African Pygmy hedgehogs don't hibernate which means that they would have to deal with the rainfall you have mentioned. You basically just debunked your whole theory if that's your actual argument.


Wild African hedgehogs do hibernate, you need to stop reaching mate.

Rain season by the way = 6cm~ over the course of two months. Better sign them up for the swimming category in the Olympics, hey? Give me a break.

I'm out, you are clearly the one who lacks any basic understanding of their natural behaviour, habitat, and climate and are arguably worse than arguing with a brick wall. Good riddance.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

The wet season is in the summer...

http://www.thesustainabilitycouncil.org/savanna-biome.html

https://askabiologist.asu.edu/anatomy-savanna

https://sciencing.com/temperatures-savannah-grassland-8378303.html


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

You sure you know what you’re talking about? I thought I was the one reaching (I was, but so are you apparently.)


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

By the way, the driest (dry season) MONTH gets 6 cm of rain, I think you read where you got that information from wrong LOL

It rains A LOOOOOT more than that during the wet season...

And where did you get the number 10 from? The dry season lasts for 5-6 months.. you really DO NOT know what you’re talking about.......


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Here, some nighttime reading for you (which is a study, and not a website - because I know how much you want one). Feel free to search for as many more as you want; https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/453521/ . Another (study, not website), which is predominately on soils but also mentions season lengths; https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/34505888.pdf .

First link; average max annual rainfall over the rainy season is 60cm, lowest is 10cm. Shortest season is typically 2 months (implying a dry period of 10 months), longest is ~5 - depends on where you are in the Sahel. And that rainfall total is listed as being *annual*, aka it is the *total* rainfall that occurs of the *entire* rainy season - not on a monthly basis. This is not significant to the extent you're making it out to be, especially if you consider the soil type in the Sahel.

You wanted them, so there you have it. I would prefer to not participate in this useless "debate" any longer.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

This didn’t prove anything. First of all, the study showed that within the 4-5 months of the rainy season (you read it wrong, it’s 1-2 months in the north, not the south,) it rains 6 inches, which is a normal amount of rain in most places of the world. This means that hedgehogs are going to have to experience rain from time to time.

Also, I did not ask for a study on their natural habitat. I am well aware of what it consists of. What I really wanted was for the scientific study that shows that water is “dangerous” to hedgehogs because it doesn’t encourage natural bahavior. All you showed me was that the wet season lasts for 4-5 months and it rains normally during that time... I wouldn’t say it’s a “dry” climate and if a hedgehog comes into contact with water, it will get stressed out and become sick (which is just plain ridiculous, but that’s your “arguement”)

If you don’t want to participate in this “debate” (if that’s what we are calling it,) that’s fine. I just didn’t want to give you the pleasure of feeling as if you are right (which you clearly are not) by letting you get the last words in. Have a good day!


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I am lost for words; your arrogance is outstanding.

I didn't read the study wrong. African hedgehogs are found in various parts of the Sahel. The shortest season is 1-2 months, the longest is 5, and I specifically mentioned in my above post that the seasonal length depends on the location within the Sahel. You asked for where I got 10 months from, and I gave it you. And you accuse me of taking your posts out of context? Lol.

You dont seem to be familiar with their natural habitat at all, and seem to believe that hedgehogs are swimming around africa. They take shelter in caves, and hedgehogs - even in Europe, where it rains always - typically avoid rainfall. The soil type within the Sahel is also important; it is sandy soil, and allows for very quick drainage. They are not sloshing around in puddles all day like you've been implying. Do they encounter some degree of rainfall? Yes. So do rabbits, so do hamsters, so do gerbils, as do chinchillas and even cats - and we do not advise bathing these animals unless medically required or absolutely necessary. Comparing rainfall to bathing them in water and/or allowing them to swim is again, an idiotic statement to make. If you didnt own a hedgehog, I would genuinely doubt you've ever seen one in person. And with your demand that water baths are great, and that sand baths are lesser... it's shocking, honestly.

You are like a broken record with demanding your scientific study on why water baths are inadvisable for hedgehogs when you are well aware that there are none (although we have a multitude on studies on the effects of stress on all types of animals; knock yourself out on sciencedirect). do I need to remind you of your absolutely outrageous statement that you made earlier in this thread where you claimed that offering a hedgehog a sand bath more than once a month was oh so incredibly deadly, a statement you made with no basis of fact, or have you conveniently forgotten that? 

I was perfectly content with dropping this and moving on for the sake of agreeing that we disagree. But if you want act like a child; Mate, I take all my pleasure from reading your idiotic posts alone. Grow up.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Childish? This reply of yours has just been you insulting me and repeating what you said in previous posts. You accused me of being a hypocrite when you are one yourself. 

To quote from the article, “In the Sahel proper, the season length ranges from 1 to 2 months in the north to 4 to 5 months in the south.” Hedgehogs live in the southern and western regions of Africa... not the northern regions. The northern savannas in Africa aren’t as tropical as the ones that hedgehogs live in. You are so entitled to the fact that you know about a hedgehog’s natural environment when you clearly do not.

I was told by members of a Facebook group I am in (which I have already said, but I’m guessing you have forgotten,) that sand baths should be given once a month if at all to avoid respiratory issues. I already accepted the fact that there is no scientific evidence to prove that, just people saying so. The same goes with you. You listened to information about sand baths from a German website and read that water baths should be avoided unless for medical purposes. However, there is no scientific evidence AT ALL to prove that. I could easily say that sand baths cause respiratory issues with no scientific evidence right now, but that wouldn’t be believable. You know what else isn’t believable? You saying that water baths are dangerous without any scientific evidence to support your claim aside from the fact the you heard from somewhere that they are bad. 

I’d love it if we can just both agree on the fact that there is not enough research done on hedgehogs at the moment to conclude this debate and just let it be. There really is no answer here and I believe that both ways of bathing them is perfectly safe if done correctly. Can we just leave it at that for now?


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Hedgehogs *are* and have been found in the southern *and* northern regions of the Sahel. Entitled? Oh please.

You already have claimed that sand baths cause respiratory issues despite having none of your scientific proof to say otherwise. You only changed your tune when I asked you how you came to such a ridiculous conclusion. See; this debate did have some purpose - you're no longer making such ridiculous statements about sand baths. 
I listened to info from German sites and from doing my own additional research and came to what I believe to be the most logical answer; water baths for any ol' reason shouldn't be done, sand baths should be offered to let them groom themselves - because this is how they clean themselves, despite your denial of that because no one has done a study on grooming hedgehogs- - and that you should wipe them down with a warm rag if need be instead.

I will absolutely agree that we don't know enough about hedgehogs, and that little research is done on them. But I think its absolutely insane that nobody is open to new ideas or accepting to the fact that _maybe_ we have water baths all wrong, all because theres no study to say otherwise.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Alright, you have said that multiple times before. Not to mention that it doesn’t really have anything to do with hedgehogs being able to touch water. I just do not think that standing in some water for a few minutes once a month or less can cause a hedgehog to get stressed and become sick merely because it “doesn’t encourage natural behavior.” Every animal in the wild is going to come across water, especially since most animals need water every single day. It’s also going to rain in the savanna from time to time and I feel like it’s safe to assume that they won’t get extremely sick from stress if some water drops on them. This debate has gone on for far too long and I feel as if we have both gotten our points across multiple times already. To be honest, nothing you can say can change my opinion about this besides for a scientific study. You are learning all of this information about their natural habitat recently (which is why you assumed that the rainy season was in the winter... because the first link when you search it says so.) If you didn’t know anything about their natural habitat before this debate (you used to think they were a desert species,) then I really don’t think I can believe you as your whole “theory” is based off of their natural habitat... but you weren’t even aware of what it was before this debate started (and you were so entitled to the “fact” that you know everything about a hedgehog’s natural environment when in reality you recently just google searched it smh.) Thank you for sharing. Have a good day.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I referred to them a desert species because they are from an arid climate, chill. I admitted that it wasn't the correct way to refer to them, tripped up on one single term, and you're still running with it. 

We're not talking about footpaths. We are talking about full on bathing them; putting them in water that covers their stomach, floating them on their back, and some even mentioned in this particular thread that they allow their animal to swim. Again, please stop comparing bathing a hedgehog to an animal drinking or getting rained on. "You only did a google search" is pretty rich coming from someone who has mentioned at least once that every drop of info they've received on sand baths is nothing other that parroted info from forums and Facebook groups. And before you scream hypocrite; Yes, I too use forums, studies, and general info available online - that is how you research, after all - but I'm not the one laughing at you for doing so.

If you want me to stop, don't reply to me. Otherwise I will continue to reply to every outrageous remark you make.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

But you realize that I don’t feel as if what I am saying is fact right? You feel as if what you are saying is fact, but that’s just not the case. What I am saying is merely a theory when what you are saying is “fact” (according to you.) Those are two completely different scenarios, so yes... you would indeed be a hypocrite.

If hedgehogs swim as a “survival instinct,” when they are from an arid land, then that shows that they do come in contact with water. Camels, fennec foxes, ect. (ACTUAL desert species) aren’t able to swim (they’ll drown.) So with “logic” I can infer that hedgehogs DO indeed come into contact with water and might even have to swim in it from time to time; how else would they know how to ‘doggy paddle?’ Desert species do not come into contact with water often and do not swim in it which is why they don’t have that instinct.

If water isn’t apart of their natural environment, then why are they able to swim at all? Also, plants do grow in the savanna during the wet season, not much but there is quite a few. A lot of herbivores live in the savanna... you said that “no plants” grow there. Now YOU’RE the one reaching. 

You still haven’t responded to the fact that you said “the wet season is in the winter when most animals hibernate.” You are an even bigger hypocrite than I am...

I’m not even going to bother to respond to you anymore. If you want to get the last words, I’ll let you. I feel as if I’ve gotten my point across and there’s nothing left to say. Have a good day.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

"If you give your hedgehog a sand bath more than once a month, then THAT’S where respiratory issues come in, so please don’t do that." - I already DM'd this to you; yes, you actually did come across like you believed the above statement to be true.

Hamsters can swim. So can many species that we don't recommend bathing, actually. What's important to remember is that many animals are equipped with this basic survival instinct - including animals who don't like swimming. Again, using that to argue your point is a flawed argument to make. Also: When did I say that no plants grow in their natural habitat? Quote me, please - because I don't remember saying that, at all actually. 

Please, you're not "allowing" me to have the last words haha. You've DM'd me asking me to stop - as if it doesn't take two people to have an argument - and still continue on anyway because you have this desire to "win" a "debate", give me a break.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

Emc said:


> I referred to them a desert species because they are from an arid climate, chill.


Arid definition: (of land or a climate) having little or no rain; too dry or barren to support vegetation.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

You do realise that there are plants/bushes that perfectly capable of growing in arid ( & semi-arid) climates, right? 

Do you really want this to end? I’m beginning to believe you don’t.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

I only responded to the one part of your post that you asked for a response in.......


You specifically asked me to quote you and I did. You’re welcome.

Oh, and you still haven’t responded to that fact that you said “The wet season is in the winter when most animals hibernate.”


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## Ria (Aug 30, 2018)

I'm beging to believe neither of you want this to end. If you guys dont want stop then just take it all to messages. Your both saying your gonna end it and it hasnt been a problem all day, and now suddenly your both at it again. 
Its started off okay you both had vailed points on your opions, which are all now pretty much lost.

I think Admin should come and close this thread because its gotten very ridiculous.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Yes, and you misquoted me too - thanks. Because plants can and do grow in arid regions.

From my understanding; the majority of typical rainfall in the Sahel occurs in the winter. Wild hedgehogs do hibernate, albeit for not very long periods. Still; even when awake, they can shelter during rainfall. 

I will agree to disagree, and already said this to you in DM. But if you really want to keep it up - be my guest.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

I love how you ignored Ria’s post and half of mine because of how entitled and stubborn you are.

You said, “For 2 months it experiences large amounts of rainfall - during the winter, which in case you have forgotten; a period when wild animals hibernate.” After being so entitled to the fact that you know everything about a hedgehog’s natural environment lmao.

To quote you from earlier, “grow up.”


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

I actually clicked on this thread before Ria posted,so her post hadn’t loaded yet, but by all means jump to assumptions like you do best. 

You calling others stubborn is laughable, but an attest to your arrogance. But similar to what you said earlier when you responded to me after you specifically required I stop via DM; you asked for a response, so I gave you one.


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## Shaymin_Lover (Jan 27, 2019)

You are the laughable person here. I don’t understand how you can skip over the one part of the question every time where I ask you why you said, “For 2 months it experiences large amounts of rainfall - during the winter, which in case you have forgotten; a period when wild animals hibernate,” when you were so entitled to the fact that you know everything about a hedgehog’s natural environment.

Then you start with the hypocrisy as if you’ve aren’t a part of this debate and somebody who’s keeping the debate going. I’m honestly done wasting my time with somebody who is this embarrassed to answer a simple question and just resorts to insulting me or changing the subject to avoid it lol. Bye bye.


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## HunnyBunny (Oct 17, 2016)

To be honest you both make pretty terrible arguments and have resorted to name calling on more than one occasion, maybe it's time you agree to disagree. I'm sure you both want to do what's best for your hedgehogs and want others to do the same, however forcing your opinions down someone else's throat is unnecessary and ineffective. The way you two have conducted yourselves has made it so that anyone reading will not take either of you seriously and since neither one of you is convinced by the other you're really just wasting your time.


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## Emc (Nov 18, 2018)

Yeah, I’m not bothered to repeat myself to you over and over again. So once more; I’ve answered your questions. If you only so bothered to read them. There are different regions throughout the Sahel - where rainfall differs between regions. I already told you that for certain regions (where hedgehogs are found - not exclusively, but are found) the rainy season is a 2 month period and is typically during winter. If the temp drops, they will hibernate - albeit it not for long, they can do so. Hibernation aside; shelter exists. disagree? Cool with me.

I never said I wasn’t part of the debate lol. I wasn’t the one who DM’d you (on behalf of all my buddies, like you) requesting that you stop, as if it was solely you and you alone keeping the argument alive, because I am perfectly aware that it keeps two to keep an argument going - and not just one person. If you genuinely want it to stop, don’t reply to me with something that would require a response. simple as, like I’ve already told you in your DM. If I infuriate so much; leave. Run and tell a mod to lock the thread if you so desire, I do not care.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

This has gone way off topic and will not be allowed to continue. Name calling will not be tolerated nor will posts telling members to "grow up" or calling members stupid. I will say that I am very disappointed in most of the members that have continued to argue once the discussion got out of hand. This is a family friendly forum so please think before you post.

This discussion is now closed and if anyone private messages another member to continues this they will be banned. This will be the only warning. Either behave as an adult or leave the forum.


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