# Vet Visit - Obesity



## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

My 2 year old girl Pequop has been acting odd the last 2 weeks (which have resulted in numerous vet visits) with signs of lethargy (warm bellied), inconsistent stools, mixed appetite readings...and this morning I found her gasping for breath as she sat in my lap. I took her into the E-vet, once again, but this time a different one, and was told immediately why she was gasping for breath. She is "severely obese" the doc said firmly. I immediately got defensive about being told this because I said she could still ball up perfectly fine and from what I understood that meant she was still fine, but when I saw her X-rays, I was taken aback. You could barely see her lungs and heart in the X-ray but you could see a very large liver. My 710 gram hedgehog whom I had thought was just "fluffy" is still at the vets being Sub-Q'd and in an oxygen tank. Any movement causes her to get out of breath and she starts to gasp a bit, even in the tank. I sat next to her tank for 30 minutes or so, and decided to have her left there at the vet's to get her in a more stable condition. The vet is going to have me put her on a complete liquid diet of .5 to 1 cc of Ensure 3 times a day to just get her the minimal amount of calories. Also, she will be on an antibiotic for her liver mixed in with some thyroid medication in case her thyroid is shot and it should cause her to lose more weight. He says there is a 50/50 chance she will rebound but the damage to the liver might already be done. If we keep seeing a steady declined in mood and health with our girl, we will help her cross over as this would be no way to live.

Main point in posting this is to have others aware of the toll obesity in hedgehogs can have. I adopted my girl as an adult and she was already 700 grams upon her becoming a part of our family and we should have known better by encouraging more weight loss implementation. Going by how they "ball up" is not an accurate way to determine obesity or not. From the X-Rays I saw today, my poor girl has her vital organs being suffocated by her overgrown liver and fat and it was CLEARLY visible. 

((Few notes: 

She has always been on a low fat food mix:
Royal Canin 27 Indoor light
Authority Weight Control
Chicken Soup For the Cat Lover's Soul Lite
Wellness Weight Control

Treats were always in moderation
Wheel was always present in her cage
She has a C&C palace... not a cage.. (5' in length and 3' in width)
She has always been handled EVERY night for at least 30 minutes

))


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

So sorry to hear about your little girl  will keep her in my prayers.


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## silvercat (Oct 24, 2008)

So sorry to hear about your girl. My girl & I are struggling to get her to loose some weight now too. Due to medications she's 630g & while she can roll up, has fat bulges when running around. Her breathing is fine while awake but she's snoring while sleeping which the vet said might be a result of the weight. Wishing both of us the best of luck.


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## Tasha (Feb 24, 2009)

Wishing you both luck and hope both hedgies are fighting fit soon. xx


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

So very sorry to hear about your girl  

It sounds like she is in good hands with your vet and I sincerely hope she recovers.

Best of luck.


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## mel2626 (Sep 28, 2009)

Poor Pequop! I really hope you are able to do something to help her. You've been such a loving mommy to her. I wish you both the best!


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## LizardGirl (Aug 25, 2008)

Thank you for sharing your experience at the vet, despite the fact that it didn't go so great for you and Pequop. Hope she recovers fast and gets into shape so you don't have any more scares.


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## Hedgieonboard (Nov 15, 2009)

My prayers are with you guys and hope she makes a full recovery.


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## nationofamanda (Jan 19, 2010)

oh no! i'm so sorry!


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

I am so sorry to hear about little Pequop. You are so dedicated to the well-being of your babies and fuss over every detail, so this must be horribly hard for you. I know that your little one will receive the best of care from you. Take care of yourself too-you are a wonderful hedgie Mommy.


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

Thank you all for your comments. My eyes are swollen and my head is pounding but I think it is imperative I update all my hog friends on here.

Pequop is on her way home now. She was in an oxygen tank all day and has finally regained her breathing capacity to a healthy level where she can come home. We have a little machine here to use in case she starts with the gasping again, but we will also have to make sure we don't get her too excited as that tends to be the time she wears herself out. Her wheel will be moved out of her home (she hasn't been using it anyhow) and she will only be bothered to administer meds and maybe sneak a kiss or five to my sweetest one as we don't want to cause her to get stressed/excited. I am thinking of this as a niiiiiice hedgie vacation for her where she is pampered and gets to really relax as she commences with the new liquid diet (wish it were the same for humans hehe) The vet said he was able to feed her about 3/4 of a cc of the "Clinicare" liquid they are putting her on and she actually lapped it up on her own, so this is good news. 

I will keep you updated as this is a complete 50/50 chance with her due to the liver damage she has sustained. Again, if you think your hog might be a little chunky monkey, it is best to have a vet look at them. I want to reiterate the "if they can ball up with no problem, they aren't obese" point that I have seen over and over and how that is not a good determining factor. The vet said my 710 gram hog is the equivalent of a 500 lbs human and that is just heartbreaking. If you are worried you one is overweight, an X-Ray of the internal organs is a good way to see their true state. It is on the inside what matters.


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## HedgeMom (Nov 7, 2008)

Stephanie76 said:


> Again, if you think your hog might be a little chunky monkey, it is best to have a vet look at them. I want to reiterate the "if they can ball up with no problem, they aren't obese" point that I have seen over and over and how that is not a good determining factor. The vet said my 710 gram hog is the equivalent of a 500 lbs human and that is just heartbreaking. If you are worried you one is overweight, an X-Ray of the internal organs is a good way to see their true state. It is on the inside what matters.


I'm sorry your hedgehog is ill but I disagee with letting a vet determine if your hedgehog is overweight. Since they see very few hedgehogs, they have little upon which to base their opinion. I'd ask a breeder or an experienced rescue.

As far as your hedgehog being the equivalent of a 500 lb human, I'm going to disagree. That means the vet believes that she should weigh 1/3 of what she does to be "normal" human weight. That means she should weigh 240 grams. I find that VERY hard to believe. A 240g frame carrying 710 g wouldn't be able to move.

My concern is that A. her liver is enlarged from her anorexia and B. her internal organs are being compressed by a tumor or growth. An xray is pretty useless on showing organs and tissues; that's what an ultrasound or a CT scan is for.

In addition, putting her on such a calorically restricted diet will heighten the risk of liver disease. Weight loss in animals should be very gradual and done by slowly cutting back the food and safely increasing excercise. Cutting her back from 30 cc of food a day to less than 1 cc is cruel, IMO. That would be like cutting your 2000 calorie a day diet back to 60 calories a day.


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## hedgieMate (Aug 28, 2008)

Stephanie76, I’m so sorry that your girl, Pequop, is so sick. Hearing she was gasping for breath broke my heart. I wish her a quick and full recovery.

I have neither useful medical knowledge or extensive hedgie experience like HedgeMom does, but your vet’s diagnosis doesn’t sit well with me either. You’re right; whether or not your hedgehog can ball is not a fool-proof test to determine she is obese. It’s only a rule of thumb. However, I’ve seen a number of overweight hedgies in the past 5+ years of my hedgehog companionship and this rule of thumb seems to work reasonably well for others.

Reading what you have been feeding Pequop since you adopted her... what? maybe 6 months ago? It’s hard to believe she has became obese during the time and developed enlarged liver. Is it possible she already had some liver issues before she came to you? Has her breeder observed similar health issues in Pequop’s lineage?

It’s true obesity can lead to a fatty liver disease (FLD) in humans, but not every obese individual develops FLD. Furthermore, whether your girl is “obese” is still in question. She may have a big frame or just overweight but may not be medically “obese”, and her enlarged liver may have been caused by other factors.

I too am concerned about this near-starvation crash diet which was recommended by your vet. It sounds more harmful than helpful.


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## krbshappy71 (Jul 17, 2009)

Thinking of you and all you are going through.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I don't understand the vets starvation diet either as such a small amount of food is going to make her liver worse. There have been numerous hedgehogs over the years that have had FLD and some survived, some not. In all cases the vets have stressed the importance of getting food into them numerous times a day. Once the liver starts to fail, their appetite goes and syringing them becomes very difficult. 

It's unfortunate that CnQ is no longer around as there were two owners who went into great detail about how their hedgehogs were treated. Both survived. 

My Pixie developed FLD while nursing her babies but sadly she did not make it. I could not get her to eat enough food. She'd just let it run back out of her mouth. 

I've had numerous overweight and obese hedgehogs and all were over 4 or 5 when they passed away of unrelated issues. While I feel that overweight and obesity will increase the risk of them developing FLD, especially if they go off their food, I don't feel that obesity on it's own will cause it. 

The pictures of her are adorable. Yes, she looks like a big girl but if she is obese or not, is hard to tell from the pictures. I also find it odd that you had her to other vets recently and they said nothing about her being obese. 

I think I would either take her back to one of the other vets she has seen or phone them and see what they think of the diet that last vet put her on. I don't think that diet is going to help her.

Sending lots of prayers for her recovery.


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

> I'm sorry your hedgehog is ill but I disagee with letting a vet determine if your hedgehog is overweight. Since they see very few hedgehogs, they have little upon which to base their opinion. I'd ask a breeder or an experienced rescue.
> 
> As far as your hedgehog being the equivalent of a 500 lb human, I'm going to disagree. That means the vet believes that she should weigh 1/3 of what she does to be "normal" human weight. That means she should weigh 240 grams. I find that VERY hard to believe. A 240g frame carrying 710 g wouldn't be able to move.
> 
> ...


First and foremost, *I won't be feeding her only 1 cc per day*, it will be more like 1 cc, 3 to 4 times a day along with 10 kibble. I should of clarified that. I am not trying to participate in any kind of cruelty, but am going to stick by my vets recommendations on this one.

As far as her liver being enlarge from not eating, that wouldn't be the case as she hasn't been on a hunger strike. Tumor or growth might be possible, but he gave her a pretty thorough massage (as well as the other vets we saw with her recently) and they couldn't feel any blockage/tumors/growths in her body. She is extremely tame a let all of the vets perform this.



> I also find it odd that you had her to other vets recently and they said nothing about her being obese.


I did hear from every vet I have taken her to that she is morbidly obese. I failed to mention this as well.

Also, on taking advice from breeders etc, I definitely agree, they know their stuff. But, this vet I saw today was more than qualified in telling me my hedgehog is obese and suffering because of it.

1. http://www.arapahoeanimalhospital.com/meetourdocs.cfm 
Meet Dr. Greg Hayes.


> He received his veterinary degree from Colorado State University Veterinary School in 1975.In addition to practicing small animal medicine, Dr. Hayes' medical expertise and experience include birds and other exotics, falconry, and the training of domestic and wild animals for movies and filmed commercials.


2. CSU - Colorado State University is ranked *Number 2 *in Vet schools in the nation. Also, they are famous in the college world because of their extensive training with exotics. 
http://csuvets.colostate.edu/zoomed.htm
http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/cvmbs/best_grad_schools.pdf (see the first 2 paragraphs). A lot of us Coloradan hedgehog owners use the CSU vet program for our exotics (Mr. Zug Standing Bear is one that suggested the program along with Priscilla Dressen who is regarded as one of the best hedgehog vets in nation). So, having that really does pack some weight.

3. The doctor I saw today had numerous hedgehog X-Rays to compare against with my Pequop's X-Ray and pulled them up on his computer right in front of me. This made the concept of her being obese, pretty much a reality. I could easily see the outline of the major organs in other hedgehog X-rays, one's with pneumonia, one's with growths... and it was very easy to get a good look.

Where I adopted Pequop from was basically a woman who breeds for the money and had retired her. I took her in as an adult and was not provided documentation of her lineage ... not even a "care sheet" that is standard with adoption. The breeder was a mess of a breeder - end of story on that one. 

Now, I might seem a bit snippy in this response, but I have had a rough day and yes, I will use that as a justification as I am just worn out. I am simply informing others of what I have learned today.


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

I just wanted add that I understand that all of us here want what is best for our hedgehogs. In this case, it is not as important to be right as it is to help the hog. It was hard for me to admit that I had harmed my own hedgehog with my ignorance (by letting her stay obese). But I would much rather be proven wrong and save her life then stubbornly cling to a notion that is killing her.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

Stephanie you are being very brave and I'm glad you found a vet that you trust to help your little girl. When I read through this post it terrified me and made me really think. I hope everything works out for you.

I don't think your post was rude at all and I'm sure everyone can understand that you have had a very hard day. 

I hope you can sleep tonight without worrying too much. It sounds like you're on track with a plan to make Pequop healthy again.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Nobody is saying you harmed your hedgehog by letting her stay obese and you should certainly not feel guilty about it. In the photos you posted, she is a chunky monkey but I wouldn't have called her morbidly obese by those photos. Of course seeing the hedgehog in person is a different matter, but the fact that she can ball up and looking at the photos, I would not have thought she was morbidly obese.

Some obese hedgehogs depending on their frame size can still mostly ball up but usually they can't totally ball up. Sometimes all that shows is their face. My Truffles when she was over 1000g could still ball up except for her face. Truffles was a very large hedgehog and was at least 1/3 longer than the average hedgehog. 
[attachment=0:b9xwd32p]12,03,04 Truffles_02.jpg[/attachment:b9xwd32p]

I totally disagree with the statement that a 700g hedgehog is like a 500lb human. To say that is very misleading because all 500lb humans are obese but not all 700g hedgehogs are. There are many big boned, large framed hedgehogs that are not overweight at 700g. Like humans, size and weight is all relative. A 4'10 small framed human is going to be obese at a much lower weight than a 6'2 large framed person and it's the same with hedgehogs. There are so many other factors to go by and weight is just a number and really doesn't mean much on it's own.

Getting a hedgehog to safely loose weight is a slow process and it takes months. Even when they do get down in size, often it is difficult to keep them there.


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## silvercat (Oct 24, 2008)

Too bad there wasn't some sort of measurement/weight guide. Like if your adult hedgie is 6" long the average weight is xx g, 8" inch long is xx.

I believe a lot comes from the lineage too. I know my Sylvie is a big girl & has a bit of pudge (as I've posted) that we're working on her loosing. That said, the breeder told me both the mother and father were large hogs.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Even length to weight isn't totally accurate because like humans, there are large framed hedgehogs and small framed hedgehogs but they can still be the same length. Also, accurately measuring a hedgehog can be difficult as they aren't always that co-operative being stretched out. 

There are other indicators of being overweight and obese. When they are obese, often their reverse mohawk will be more noticeable. Their quills can start to look sparse with more skin around each quill. This is because the skin is being stretched. Overweight hogs get a hump between their shoulder blades. They get fat bulges behind their legs, under their chins and neck.


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## silvercat (Oct 24, 2008)

Oh! I was under the impression the bump (or rather divet) when overweight was at the 'waist.' I know my Sylvie has a bit of a 'booty'


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

silvercat said:


> Oh! I was under the impression the bump (or rather divet) when overweight was at the 'waist.' I know my Sylvie has a bit of a 'booty'


Yes, that too.

Here's Smokey's hump.


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## hedgieMate (Aug 28, 2008)

First of all, I would like to clarify that I was commenting on what Stephanie76, the original poster or OP, wrote in her initial post about the new crash diet her vet suggested. Which is:



Stephanie76 said:


> The vet is going to have me put her on *a complete liquid diet* of .5 to 1 cc of Ensure 3 times a day to just get her the minimal amount of calories.


No kibbles were mentioned here. We can only comment on what was written/posted.

However, even with the 10 kibbles, on top of 1.5 cc to 3 cc of liquid per day, the diet seems a bit too drastic to me. As Nancy said above, I believe a weight loss attempt in hedgehogs should be done gradually over time to avoid other health issues arising from it.

No one is accusing of the OP purposely hurting or neglecting poor Pequop. In fact, I wonder if Pequop's health issues were present before she was adopted by the OP, especially knowing what the OP has been feeding her.

Furthermore, the Number One symptom of liver disease is jaundice, and No.2 being a drop in appetite. As far as the past posts from the OP, Pequop showed neither symptom. If a hedgehog has an enlarged liver so large that its heart and lungs were barely visible on X-rays, wouldn't you think s/he would be showing these symptoms?

Again, I'm not saying the OP has done anything wrong. To the contrary, it seems the OP has done everything right including having provided Pequop with a low-fat diet and giving her enough exercise time. That's why it's even more perplexing about the vet's diagnosis and, in particular, the suggested crash diet treatment for Pequop. :?

[EDIT: two typos were corrected.]


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

Pequop is on a 20% reduction in her kibble amount and the liquid diet to help her get on her feet (I have decided to use it more as what I think it is intended for and that is a base nutrient source). With further discussion between my husband and myself, I wasn't too comfortable not having any kibble in her diet on my own. She is still eating like it is going out of style, just has no desire to move much. She gets really excited when we get her out for her medications and Clinicare that she collapses on her side and is out of breath. So we limit the amount of time we have her out for social interaction as it makes her lungs work hard.

I am not going to address and break down everyone's comments, and I will tell you that I still think she is obese and needs a gradual weight loss plan or I will lose her. 

By the way -I wasn't thinking any of you were saying I did harm to my girl. I was saying that *I* did harm and was accepting responsibility. I don't feel like I have been accused of anything on this post. 

Still too soon to see which way this goes with my girl, but she is getting up and plowing through her litter box at night. 

Again, this post was simply intended to alert people to really monitor their hogs weight and respond.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I am so happy to hear she is still wanting to eat. Usually with liver issues they don't so the fact that she still wants is great news. It's also great that she is getting up at night. 

How many kibble did she normally eat per day? I've found with all my overweight ones, the exception of Lexie, they were not big eaters. 

Continuing to send prayers her way.


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

She ate about 25 kibble to 30 a day (and continued to do this with the exception of a few on and off days).. So not huge eater but not a light eater either. I put about 5 kibble in her bowl just this morning for her daytime snack and she ate 3 already during the day. Then I give her about 17 kibble at night with the supplementation of the Clinicare- slightly warm and she laps that up of a little plate.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

Knowing how much she ate while being free fed puts things into much better perspective. 
She eats less than my little 320g boy, who just last night ate like 65 kibbles(it was flax oil night lol). But on a normal night, he eats 40 kibbles. 

I'm glad that she seems to be doing fine and that her appetite is still good. Loss of appetite is the worse to deal with in ailing pets.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Immortalia, heehee, most of my gang eat more flax seed night too. :lol: 

25-30 kibble is a light eater here as well.


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

Just wanted to update everyone who is keeping up with Pequop's situation. 

There hasn't been much change in her overall condition over the last 2 days. We get her out 2-3 times a day and give her 1.5 cc's of the Clinicare and also she gets her kibble which she still munches on about 10-15 a night. I just went in to clean and change out all the hogs liners and put Pequop back in her massive C&C cage (over 5.5ft long) and she was waddling all around it, but after a minute of running through her tube, rummaging in her Carefresh litter pan and in and out of her igloo, she would collapse on her tummy and start breathing hard (not to the point of gasping though). This just reminds me that she is not ready for her wheel yet as we don't want her to overwork herself. 

I am really hoping she pulls through this and her breathing normalizes so that she can do basic activity. :<


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## Kristin (Mar 27, 2010)

Just read through your story. As everyone has said, my best wishes to you and Pequop. I hope to hear improving updates! Best of luck!


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## silvercat (Oct 24, 2008)

Stephanie76 said:


> I just went in to clean and change out all the hogs liners and put Pequop back in her massive C&C cage (over 5.5ft long) and she was waddling all around it, but after a minute of running through her tube, rummaging in her Carefresh litter pan and in and out of her igloo, she would collapse on her tummy and start breathing hard (not to the point of gasping though).


That she was breathing hard but not gasping this time sounds like a bit of an improvement. Sending wishes your way.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

That's great news.


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

A little improvement for little Pequop. Thank you for the update. I appreciate it. I like to hear how she is doing, so please post when you can.


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

Thank you all for your supportive comments. It does help.

Pequop's morning weight was : 686 grams. She is definitely losing, but still seems exhausted.

I meant to ask, with giving her the Clincicare, she is starting to become smarter with just keeping it in her mouth and not actually swallowing it. I don't want to shoot it down her throat in fear she could aspirate on it, so ... any advice on how to get her swallow it?

*Edit - Called the Vet and told him that she seems to be losing too fast and he agreed. He said she should be losing about 1-2 grams a day. So it is imperative I get more Clinicare in her since she is not eating a large amount of kibble. So suggestions on how to get her to_* swallow *_the Clinicare would be more than super.


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## silvercat (Oct 24, 2008)

Are you able to add a flavour to it?

I can't suggest on _swallowing_ but I know when I give my hegie medication & she keeps annointing with it - I hold her head & don't let her turn to annoit. Eventually she gives up & swallows it.


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## hedgielover (Oct 30, 2008)

When I have to give Quigley medicine i hold him in one hand on his back (in his ball with his head sticking out) and I gently scruff him. With the other hand I squirt the medicine into the side of his mouth. Very slowly. I wait for him to swallow each little bit before I give more. I'm scruffing so he can't turn his head to annoint. With only the small amounts he's more likely to swallow than spit it out. I know with dogs and cats you hold the head up and stroke the neck but I don't think that would work for hedgehogs (especially because their heads don't really bend up the same way).


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

Have you ever given her pedialyte before? My hedgehog Puff loves apple flavoured pedialyte so when she's being difficult and refusing to swallow her medicine, I just give her a tiny squirt of the pedialyte, which she really enjoys, and then she swallows the pedialyte and takes the medicine down with it. 

I scruff as well when I syringe feed or medicate, that way you can aim the syringe into their mouth a little better. I find if you squirt the medicine closer to the back of their mouth (still sideways of course, not straight on) they are more likely to swallow then if you put it in the front of their mouth.

Also...I know with cats and dogs, you can blow on their noses to make them swallow pills but I don't know if this works for hedgehogs though so I wouldn't do it unless someone more experience recommends it


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

Success!!! I am able to give her her Clinicare without her storing it in her mouth.  

Today's weight: 683 

I am super happy about that weight because that is a steadier, slower weight loss than before. This will be a longgggggggggggggg process, but I really hope she can start feeling better soon.

Again, thank you all. Much appreciated.

~Todd and Stephanie
Pequop, PoPo, and Leroux (The Tres Hogs)


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

Thank you for the update! Its always grand to get good news about a hedgie!!!!!!!!!!!! Yipeee for Pequop!!!!!!!


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

Today we had a set back . 

Pequop was being given her morning meds and food and started gasping for air again. We immeadiately put her back in her pen and she was able to lay down and catch her breath. 

Also, she only ate 7 kibble last night. 

I am wondering when I or if I need to consider letting her go? :<


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## shetland (Sep 2, 2008)

Oh Stephanie! I am so sorry to hear this about little Pequop. And so sorry for your pain. I am sure some of the others such as Nancy will be along to help you or may have already messaged you.


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## Amy1024 (Mar 18, 2010)

I'm really sorry that you two are going through this, I hope she will get better.


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## SnufflePuff (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm also very sorry  

I know you are a great mom and you will know when it is time to let your little girl go.


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## Stephanie76 (Nov 2, 2009)

Thanks again guys. 

I am sure others are tired of hearing my updates... but I think there will be less of them as the decline is happening pretty fast now. Her weight this morning was 668 grams (too fast of weight loss to be healthy). 

Last night, she ate 3 kibble out of her 22 provided. Tried to feed her some Clinicare this morning with little success due to her breathing so hard. She isn't moving much anymore and only gets up to walk a 1 step only to collapse. 

I called the vet to see if I need to bring her in to help her cross, and he wants me to try one more thing, a canned food called "LD" for liver disease specifically and see if that works for the next 3 days or so. If it doesn't, we will be helping her cross over the rainbow bridge next week as she looks miserable.

I am at work trying to keep myself composed and am failing tremendously at it.


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## Tasha (Feb 24, 2009)

Thinking of you.x Hope the canned food works. x


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I am so sorry she is going downhill. With every illness there are bad days mixed in with the good but when the decline continues day after day then we have to make a decision. I agree with the vet trying this other food. I wonder why he didn't try it at the beginning. 

Sending hugs and prayers.


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