# Our Raw Adventure!



## sheap

Over the last...months I have been doing a TON of research on raw diet feeding and we have finally gotten to the point that the house can make the switch  So I thought I would chronicle my journey for anyone who might be interested (and so I can easily come back to it! :wink: )

First off a little history of my hedgies!

Dmitri and Nina are roughly the same age, about 9mos. Nina has had one accidental litter of hoglets.

Dmitri is fat. 679g to be exact. Now, he can still roll into a tight ball, so he's not obese, but he is much heftier than he should be. Even the vet remarked on it (about 75g ago...) He just likes eating. He's not very picky (he does have his favorites) and he's on a target fat range kibble. He just continues to gain weight (and girth).

Nina is thin. A little too thin. She literally runs all night, barely stopping to eat. She is still on "babycat" and is only just maintaining her post pregnancy weight of 293g. Plus I should mention that she eats anywhere from 15-20 mealies a night. And she doesn't gain weight. And as if that wasn't enough, she's a picky eater. She didn't even eat mealworms until Bonnie (the midwife) did the "smear guts on her lips" trick.

So these two are what I have to deal with. :roll:

A history of their diet.

I have a kibble mix that is 50/50 Blue Wilderness Small Breed Dog and Puppy. Both hedgies eat and like this. Dmitri can chew the kibbles whole, while Nina gets them broken up. Dmitri also has been eating Primal Pronto Duck (frozen raw duck diet) for the last month or so as a treat/supplement. They both get and enjoy fruits and veggies, and insects (Dmitri only gets crickets and Nina gets both mealies and crickets).

Current Menu:
Dmitri: 
10g BB kibble (eats 4-5g)
5-7g veg or fruit (eats all)
6-8 frozen crickets (eats all)
10g Primal duck (eats all)

Nina:
2g BB, 8g Babycat kibble (eats 5-7g)
5-7g veg or fruit (eats 2-3g)
15-20 live/frozen mealworms (sometimes I add crickets on top of the total) eats all
various meat (raw and cooked) offered, only eats cooked chicken breast.

*THE ADVENTURE BEGINS:*

We have found a local "Pet Deli" with locally made complete raw diets! It's roughly 95% organic meat (of which the make up is 8:1:1 muscle: organ:bone) and 5% raw organic vegetables. I really love the idea of it...the hedgies aren't as thrilled.

If anyone wants to give me their thoughts, this is the company that makes it.

Tonight will be day three of trying the "Eco Medley" which is pork and beef as the protein. Nina doesn't eat it, and Dmitri only ate it last night, he didn't deign to try it the first night. :/

I am going to try to smear it on Nina's lips before bed tonight so she hopefully gets the idea that it's good. And hopefully Dmitri continues to eat it.

I also have the "chicken medley" in the fridge (soon to be portioned and frozen).

They continue to get their kibble offered and fresh fruits or veggies. Tonight is sweet potato. 

Thoughts?


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## Lilysmommy

Sounds like a good menu! And sounds like Dmitri's having a good time with it...you have your work cut out for you with Nina though. :lol: Picky little bugger. Good luck getting her to try something! I'll get your thread added to the Raw sticky. 

(That store has a huge variety, wow. I'm jealous!)


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## CoffeeKat

I'm jealous too  You would think that someplace the size of Kansas City would have something like this. I like the idea of being able to follow your adventure, especially since Nina sounds alot like my LuLu as far as being picky and relatively small. Looking forward to watching where this experience takes "us".


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## sheap

Nina didn't eat the chicken. I broke down and tried giving her the chicken (Dmitri is still getting the Eco and he's actually eating it every night now!!) I initially wanted them to have the same thing as the other each night, because that makes it easier on me.

But after two nights of not eating the Eco I figured maybe she'll like the chicken, since she eats cooked chicken.

But no. I even tried stuffing little bits in her mouth so she can see that it's yummy. Oh she eats those just fine. But she will not put the meat in her mouth on her own...

I don't know what to try next. I think i might try lightly cooking the chicken tonight (the website says to use a little warm water and not to get it above 115*F) 

She also seems to have gone off her veggies! She used to snarf them down...now, there is just a lump of shriveled up veggies in the bowl every night right next to the shriveled up scoop of meat. :/ 

Do you think that maybe she doesn't eat the veggies because it's next to the meat?

This little girl is so confounding.


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## MomLady

I am thinking she's saying "Ewww Mom, it's touching!"

Hedgehogs are the very definition of stubborn. They want what they want. 

We're just along for the ride.


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## Lilysmommy

Man, I wish hedgehogs were as easy to switch as dogs! :lol: I'm sorry little Nina's giving you trouble. I wonder if you could move the meat away from the veggies & see if she eats them then. And if she does, maybe sneak a tiiiiiiiny piece of meat into the mix and see if she notices? Could be a dangerous game, but maybe worth a try, heh. 

I think cooking the chicken might work though. I know for some people who have had trouble with dogs, sometimes it works to cook the meat so they'll eat it, then gradually cook it less & less. It won't hurt her any to get it cooked for a while if that's how she'll eat it! And maybe if you go slowly enough, you can work her down to taking it raw. If she won't, I don't personally see an issue with continuing to cook it, as it'll still have plenty of nutrition & such.  If she'll meet you halfway, that's better than nothing! Good luck and let us know if she decides to change her mind at any point...Dmitri should tell her it's good stuff!


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## sheap

Hi everyone! Sorry for the lack of updates...I was hospitalized last Wednesday (literally right after I posted last) with appendicitis. Thankfully I'm back home and we can continue to go raw!

While I was in the hospital my two books on raw diet arrived! I got "The BARF Diet" by Ian Billinghurst and "Real Food for Healthy Dogs & Cats" by Karen Becker. Both are veterinarians and so they should be good reads. 

While I was in the hospital, Nina didn't get any raw offered. The boyfriend was in charge of feeding the quillies and he was rushing to get back to the hospital every night. It was easier just to feed kibble to Nina instead of cleaning up a bowl of dried up raw meat each night! :lol:

Anyways, last night I tried cooking her chicken..no dice. :roll: I only gave her 4g of the kibble since that's all she really eats anyways and I was hoping to force her into eating the meat. This obviously didn't work, HOWEVER, it did trick her into eating the veggies!  So I think I might try this tactic going forward with her. Obviously I am going to continue to feed her enough kibble to keep her from starving, but maybe if she doesn't have kibble available she will try the yummy meat?

Dmitri continues to eat all the meat I offer him! He's such a good little boy! He's actually even started eating less kibble as well! Plus drinking less water and having smaller poops. Pretty much all the benefits have started to show!  Now I just need him to lose a little weight! :lol:


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## gracefulchaos01

Welcome back! Glad you are back on your feet as it were.

Edit: I just started my kids on trying the Vital brand chicken tube stuff available at petsmart. First night went pretty well. They seem to like it, thought they seem to also prefer the instinct raw bites. The cats also nibbled at the Vital stuff and that pleases me as well. 
Not the most exciting of adventures. But every journey begins with a step.


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## CoffeeKat

Sheap, thanks for the update and it's good to know you're on the mend. I too have been meaning to update but every day I think..."tomorrow". There just isn't much to report.

Our journey, by contrast, is like slogging through mud. LuLu doesn't like to eat. She doesn't run. All she really wants to do is sleep, although she's very active when we put her in the playpen, almost to the point of being manic. Her stools have been loose and "smeary" but she won't eat pumpkin so I've been syringing that every day. She still eats her worms with enthusiasm, but she is eating less and less of her raw chicken and even though she started eating duck bites again, she's cutting back on that as well. 

Today I'm getting fresh duck bites and fresh chicken, and if that doesn't stimulate her appetite I plan to take a stool sample to the vet tomorrow for testing, and a vet appointment later in the week. I have one lonely little pinkie mouse in my freezer and I'm debating whether to offer it tonight. I won't watch her eat it, but I worry about choking, but is that really a valid concern?

Honestly, at this point, I would go back to feeding kibble if I could find something that she enjoys eating, but aside from the initial enthusiasm for raw food she has never shown interest in anything but worms. Right now she's eating about 1% of her body weight in worms, about 1% in Instinct raw duck bites, and 2-3 % in raw ground chicken. I've been operating on the recommendation that hedgehogs be fed 6% of their body weight so she is definitely below that right now. 

Very vexing.


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## Lilysmommy

Glad you're feeling better, Sheap! Glad Dmitri is being a good boy, at least, lol. But I'm sorry both of the girls (yours & Kat's) are giving you both so much trouble.  Picky little buggers! I'm having my own troubles as well with my dog. She pooped inside last night, half-diarrhea, and my dad had to clean it up since I'm dogsitting at a neighbor's.  Still trying to figure out what might have caused it, there's a couple possibilities. I'm also having the choking problem with her, so I'm having to cut her food up into smaller chunks. Not an issue with boneless meat...pain in the butt with bone though! :roll: Working on some other ways to work around that issue as well.

Kat - How big is the pinky in relation to her mouth & throat? I would think it'd be too big for her to choke on & I've mostly only heard of hedgies chewing bugs & pinkies up really well, but I'm not really sure if it's a possible risk or not. Will she not even consider eating anything in front of you so could monitor? I wish I had some ideas to help with the rest of it.  These little guys like to be so frustrating!


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## sheap

Success!! Sort of. 

Last night I was thinking of trying to cook Nina's chicken again, then I thought maybe I could offer her some left-over meat from the fridge. But, of course, we have no left overs, which is why we went out for sushi for dinner. SUSHI! I picked apart one of the left-over pieces and pulled out the raw salmon. She got maybe total 2g of the fish.

And it's all gone tonight!! 

I've also been giving her some mealworm aliens (because then they are alive instead of frozen, I thought she might get stimulation out of that). I left them morph on my desk. I pulled about half of the big worms out of the container from the store, add some oatmeal to three jello-shot containers, put them behind the notebooks (so I don't have to look at them) and a week or two later, they are aliens! The aliens go into the fridge, the rest of the mealworms are in the freezer. Aliens don't crawl out of the food bowl so I don't have to worry about surprise mealworms under the liner (yes, it's happened) and she gets live buggies! Win win, really. 

So now I am going to try and get back to the pet deli to get a fish medley! 

CoffeeKat, where did you get the info that hedgies should be eating 6% of their body weight? That's interesting, I'd like to learn more about that! Currently, Dmitri is getting about 2% of his body weight in raw. He is losing weight, but that's kinda the point! But if what you've said is correct, I'm practically starving him! 

Also, to address your other concern, I don't think choking on a pinky is much of a problem with hedgies. Depending on how large it is in relation to her head, like Kelsey mentioned, of course.

Have you tried fish with her? I'm so surprised that Nina ate it, I'm wondering if your LuLu might try it....


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## CoffeeKat

http://www.petshub.com/665732

Well, I do believe I may be hitting my local supermarket's sushi bar in the next day or so to see if LuLu might like fish, although I did try a whole feeder fish a few weeks ago and she wouldn't touch it.

The 6% reference can be found here: okay, then, can be found there /\ at the top of the page, since that is where it wanted to be 

It's actually an outline of a presentation in 1998 by Dr. Wendy Graffam, PhD, who worked at the Bronx Zoo at that time. She was summarizing her research on hedgehog nutrition, but this would be the wild European hedgehogs, not our little pygmies, but still....I did not think the 6% was off base really. (It's recommended that dogs be fed 2-3 % of their body weight, puppies 3-4 %. Smaller animals have a faster metabolism). And all these percentages are in wet or raw food, not dry.

I have had no luck in finding a copy of this presentation anywhere, only the outline. I don't know that anyone has done much more research than this in the past 16 years. I did find the author, Dr. Graffam, on Facebook and sent her a messge requesting link to the full article but she probably thinks I'm a creepy creeper and I never heard from her.

I need to hurry up and win the lottery, so I can fund some real research into our little quillies


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## gracefulchaos01

My hedgies seem to like when we feed them fish cat foods. And little Ouchie, from another thread, eats tetra bits which are fish based. So, ya, the poo is extra stinky. Worth it for a healthy well fed hedgie? I'm aiming for whitefish.


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## sheap

CoffeeKat, that makes total sense about them needing more food than dog/cats since they are smaller and have a faster metabolism! I'm kicking myself for not thinking of that before now! Yikes! No wonder Dmitri is still eating his kibbles! I need to figure out a cheaper way of doing this... The book I'm reading now ("The BARF Diet") has some really good ideas and I'm only on pg 25! 

GracefulChaos, a lot of people have reported that hedgies fed a dry kibble that's fish based do have stinkier poops. However, raw eaters in general have less stinky poop than their kibble fed counterparts, so I'm hoping that Nina doesn't get stinky...though I've just bought a HEPA air filter to station right next to the cages...as the cages are right next to my desk...did I mention I work full time from home? Even a little smell is a LOT to me after a few hours!! 

Also, CoffeeKat I advise against using feeder fish, unless you are raising them yourself. I used to be really big into the fishkeeping hobby....feeder fish are about the most disease ridden little buggers you can imagine. And they aren't fed very well at all...and we all know that you are what you eat. Most fish food they feed the feeders in stores is basically wet cardboard. Then again, I guess you can say that about mealworms bought from the store too...


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## gracefulchaos01

Well, as for me, I'm still going back and forth between raw foods and canned cat foods. My main concern being that I don't have enough of a variety of raw to offer different foods on the consistent basis. Plus, in the event of financial difficulty I KNOW I can get canned food, while I can't guarantee access to raw at all times. I don't necessarily think keeping my options open is a bad thing. It keeps the kids interested and keeps them from picking just one favorite and getting super picky about what they eat.


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## sheap

Definitely! I completely understand, raw isn't for everyone, or every hedgie.

I was merely pointing out the decreased smell in case someone happens across this post and they avoid fish because of what was mentioned about the smelly poop.  No offense meant!

I'm not trying to push my ideas on anyone, just hoping to jot some ideas down to potentially help someone else thinking about raw food in the future.


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## CoffeeKat

Grace, that makes total sense. I would probably lean in that direction too, except I have yet to find a wet cat food or even baby food that LuLu will eat. 

Sheap, thanks for the heads up on feeder fish. I had no idea. The fish I got (that Her Royal Pickiness would not eat) came from my son's cichlid tank. He had an aggressive male that paid the ultimate price for his bully tactics  I'm thinking a few pieces of human grade fish in sushi would be a good place to start.


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## gracefulchaos01

Sushi grade salmon, tuna, yellowfish, (is it yellowfish?) Anyway any of those might be ideal. Plus some fish have a good fat content. That may be a solid addition to a picky hedgie diet. 

And sheap, no offense was taken  some people do fuss about the poo. Since my kids have their own room, I just care if the poo is healthy.

Kat, have I mentioned Gayle never touches the canned food? She does very much like the raw though. I still give her canned though. It seems mean to give it to everyone else and not her too. Sebastian only picks at her canned. But the boys eat it up.


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## ellisrks01

gracefulchaos01 said:


> Sushi grade salmon, tuna, yellowfish, (is it yellowfish?) Anyway any of those might be ideal. Plus some fish have a good fat content. That may be a solid addition to a picky hedgie diet.


I've tried salmon and tuna when I brought home sushi about a month ago. Both my hedgies liked both kinds. They seem to love stuff with some kinda of fish in it. Must be the strong smell. Lol


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## gracefulchaos01

The smell could very well be the key. My kids seem to particularly enjoy fish night's around here as far as canned food goes.


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## Lilysmommy

If I can add some info to the fish conversation...On the raw feeding group on Facebook, there's a graphic that gets posted quite often on which fish are higher in omega-3 fatty acids (the good ones! and the ones that are deficient in factory farmed meat, though grass-fed meat has higher omega-3's than 6's), as well as which ones are likely to have a high mercury level. I attached the graphic, if anyone's interested in checking it out!

I'm glad there's been a breakthrough, Sheap!


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## sheap

I was actually just reading the part of "The BARF Diet" where he talks about how great fish are in a weekly rotation for that exact reason! (BTW, I love this book so far, and every raw-feeder should have a copy)

I just called up the pet deli and they are making the fish medley for me right now! (I love that the place I buy it from is also where they make it!!) I am picking it up after work and I might also grab some kelp powder...but more on that later. (I'm gonna summarize the main points from "The BARF Diet" when I finally finish it  That is, if no one minds!!)

Again last night she ate all the salmon I gave her! I am so excited that she is finally willing to transition!  I have a rough idea of how I'm going to trick her into trying other meats, but again, more on that later...I'm supposed to be working right now! :lol:


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## CoffeeKat

I for one would love to see a summary of that book. It's not that I'm too cheap to buy it myself, it's just that I already know that with LuLu I will have to rely on commercial raw for her nutritional needs. She's just too picky. 

I'm curious to see her reaction to sushi fish tomorrow night...I believe I will go with salmon and after seeing the chart Kelsey shared, I'm thinking anchovies might be worth a shot too (where would I even find anchovies? Are they canned, like sardines? If so, sodium content might be too high) I had planned to go to the store today but got lazy.

Lu ate more last night, but not as much as I want her to. This tells me that she is sensitive to freshness so not only is she picky, she is discerning. Little Miss Pinkie is still in the freezer. Kelsey, you asked about the size: it measures 1.75", and probably would be about like feeding your ****er Spaniel a rabbit. It seems kind of big to me for a tiny mouse baby....maybe a rat pup? I know zerozip zilch about pinkies.


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## ellisrks01

I second the book summary. 

Coffeekat, I know you can get anchovies that are canned. I probably buy it once or twice a year for random stuff. It's always extreamly salty. I'm not sure if that's the avchovy or what it's canned in but Im going to "assume" it's too high in sodium. But like I said that's a assumption. What food did you feed last night?(sorry if I missed it)


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## gracefulchaos01

You may be able to get fresh anchovy from a fish monger or quality grocer. But more often you find them canned. Or pasted. I use paste for cooking. It brings a wonderful depth to sauces.


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## Lilysmommy

Oh man, I do NOT need encouragement to buy books. :lol: Sounds like I have one to search for though...somehow my library of 1100 books only has one on dog/animal diets (though my wildlife rehab book has a nutrition section)! I must remedy this ASAP. 

Yeah, Kat, that sounds like it's more likely a rat pinky by the size. Mouse pinkies & fuzzies are typically less than an inch, if my memory & estimation can be trusted. Does it have any fur at all? If it's completely bare, it's a pinky, if it has some "fuzz" or dusting of hair, it's a fuzzy.

None of the online raw suppliers that I know of offer anchovies, sadly. I can get frozen anchovies from an Asian market near my college, so that might be an idea for where to check. I don't plan on getting the ones I found though since they're really expensive. Sardines have around the same levels of EPA/DHA as anchovies, and you can get them from Raw Feeding Miami and Hare-Today (as well as ground anchovies from Hare-Today). Hare-Today has a couple other fish available in ground mixes if anyone is interested (salmon, herring, and whitefish).


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## sheap

Last night I picked up the Salmon Medley from the pet deli..it was more expensive than the other foods I've gotten there ($10/lb as opposed to $4/lb) but since it's all Nina will eat right now, I am ok with that. Plus based on how much they eat, 1/2 lb (which is the size I buy) is about two weeks worth of food for one hedgie. Not bad for $5. 

I gave her 10g of the medley last night. And she ATE IT ALL!! PLUS she ate all of her mealies, and kibble and the sweet potatoe AND the steamed zucchini I gave her! 

All of the sudden Nina has a huge appetite! If I didn't know any better I'd say she was prego again. 

The only thing I don't like about the salmon medley is that there are no bones in it. So it's not really "nutritionally adequate" as my book would say.

I know it was asked on CoffeeKat's thread, but does anyone have any information about bone meal or bone powder? 

I was also thinking I would ask the deli if they can make me up JUST ground bone (like with very little meat maybe?) and then I could add that as a supplement to anything I wanted.  But since I would no longer need to buy their food, I doubt they'd like the loss of business! 

One more thing: I am thinking about using alfalfa powder and kelp powder as vitamin and mineral (respectively) supplements in the food. I priced them at the deli yesterday....WAY too expensive there. I am thinking of trying to find an amazon listing....


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## Erizo

Regarding the discussion on total food weight and total body weight: I would be concerned about reliable comparisons without having a lot of supporting data. Food with high energy density (high-fat, high protein kibbles or canned meats for cats) pack a lot of power in a small amount of weight. The risk here is obesity if the animal is free fed and doesn't know when to quit.

Low energy density diets (lower-fat and lower-protein percentages (and possibly sugar)) will likely have the animal eating a lot more volume but getting a healthier diet.

Sophie is on a 100% wet-food diet for health reasons. Food is available at night only. She is able to free feed during the night because we manipulate the blend of energy density depending on what we see with her weekly weigh-ins. Because she is getting older and running much less than she used to, we have to monitor more closely and act more quickly to changes. We have less flexibility than when she was running like crazy.

.

Current diet:

5 - 6 grams pinky mice hand fed in the afternoon

A dish with about 30 grams of food available, of which she typically eats about 25 grams. The blend is 3 grams high energy density kibble (medium-ground with a mortar and pestle) 10 grams meat based canned cat food (rotating meats and brands: chicken, turkey, duck, venison - Natural Balance and Merrick brands) and 18 grams of baby food vegetables (rotating through a wide selection of veggies and veggie mixes from Gerber and BeechNut. Depending on how much she is running we manipulate the mix to keep her weight approximately level. Veggies (unless high in sugar) are good for diluting energy density. They add healthy filler so that she can eat however much she wants.

(I'd rather not be feeding near this percentage of veggies, but it meets the current need and appears to be doing no harm.?)

3 grams mealworms during our night visit. Varies from 18 to 25 mealworms to equal 3 grams. Yes, most people will say that is a LOT of mealworms, but as a percentage of her diet - is it really? (The average fat percentage of mealworms is highly debatable; though I'm open to data resources new to me.)

(Her vet is very familiar with the diet and the various changes that have been needed. She first thought that Sophie was getting a lot of mealworms - up until she she got a look at all of the other data and is now very much on board with things. We work pretty well together. A lot of vets think they know everything about everything. We both take the position that we know a lot (from different perspectives) but not anywhere near everything and that works pretty well.)

.


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## gracefulchaos01

Sheap, Kat mentioned in her thread that if you are looking to supplement calcium with the bone that an egg shell ground fine per (I think) 1/2 pound of meat would do the job. But double check her thread, it may be per 1 pound. 
Erizo, wow that is seriously detailed. And I love it. Does Sophie not know when to stop grazing? I have a cat like that. But everyone else only eats when they are hungry, not when they are bored.


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## Erizo

> I have one lonely little pinkie mouse in my freezer and I'm debating whether to offer it tonight. I won't watch her eat it, but I worry about choking, but is that really a valid concern?


Regarding pinky mice from earlier in this thread:

Sophie loves them and I hand-feed in the late afternoon as a treat.

Three pinky mice; 5.3 grams total weight.





..............................................

Three pinky mice.





..............................................

One pinky rat at 7.0 grams. She works hard on this guy. It's definitely a maximum size snack.





..............................................

I get about a year's supply of pinky mice at one time from Rodent Pro .com and have been very happy with them. I just thaw out the two or three that I will feed each day. It doesn't take even thirty minutes for them to fully thaw.

I've fed Extra Small, Small, Large (there is no Medium), and White Peach Fuzzy mice. The WPF have basically no fuzz at all and are just one size up from Large. I got some Dark Peach Fuzzy mice and they have quite a bit of fur and I've not been feeding them. I need to know a lot more about if she'd be okay eating the fur. (She might very well simply refuse them also.)

I got some pinky rats, but on average they are too big. The smaller ones are 5.5 to 7 grams and that is a pretty big snack. I haven't fed the larger pinky rats because they are just too much at one time (even though she could probably handle them okay). I tried butchering the pinky rats a couple of times and leaving bite size pieces in a dish but she wouldn't take them that way. (That could change, but on a couple of tests she wouldn't touch them, even when put in her cage for the night to investigate.)

.


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## Lilysmommy

Sheap, the information I have for bonemeal & eggshell is 1 teaspoon per 1 pound of meat. I read that from the raw feeding FB group, I can double check with them if you want! You can find it on Amazon, or if you have a health food store, you can usually find it there. That's where I found my bonemeal powder. You should be able to find the other supplements you're considering at a health food store as well (or on Amazon).


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## Erizo

> Does Sophie not know when to stop grazing?


gracefulchaos01 -- No, she does not. Her diet has been a battle for 2 1/2 years. When she was a baby, she ran long and hard and would not eat enough to keep her weight up. We had to continually add energy density just to maintain a low weight.

When she get sick with cystitis, that seriously muddied the waters because it took quite a while to sort out that a mostly dry kibble diet was almost 100% of the problem. It was quite serious; she was bleeding a lot and deteriorating.

Once the connection was made after some smaller diet changes, we shifted our research focus and went big on diet changes. She showed immediate improvement, though it took many weeks for the bleeding to fully stop and to declare her cured. It turns out that mostly dry food diets are, for some animals, almost cruelty. I had no idea.

This site, by Dr. Lisa Pierson, DVM (targeted for cat owners) was pretty eye opening and very helpful to understanding some of the things to consider and then researching other informational sources: http://catinfo.org/

Now that she is older (a bit more than 2 1/2 years old), running is down quite a bit and that means we have to be really careful with the energy density of her food. In the 'real world', she'd have to run around all night to get enough bugs, grubs, and insects; i.e., lots of required exercise and moslty low energy density food sources.

So far as I know, it isn't possible to buy a kibble or a wet food that doesn't have way more energy than she needs. Given access to yummy meats she'll chow down. I suppose rationing is an option, but then she would get very little to eat. By 'cutting' her food blend with healthy filler (low energy density veggies), she gets to eat as she pleases, but I can fine-tune as needed to keep her weight stable.

I wish she'd start to run more again. I'm having to feed a lot more veggies than she would ever eat in the real world but it seems to work extremely well as a way to fine-tune the diet week to week. (Weigh-ins every Monday afternoon.)


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## gracefulchaos01

Most of us don't know about kibble. I, myself, still feed kibble for grazing even though I know it's not the best food for them. My cats refuse to give up their kibble. The hedgies need something through the time when I'm not available to switch their fresh foods out for more fresh food. I personally feel that it is so important for all 10 of my furry babes that I supplement them with non kibble alternatives before they develop health issues. 
It may be to late for my 14 year old Loki, but it's just in time for my 6 month old hedgies.


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## CoffeeKat

Thank you for some great information and insight, Erizo. Those of us just feeling our way in raw feeding appreciate advice from those who have gone before us.

I can't even imagine LuLu eating that much! Three meal worms at a time is her limit....she just refuses to eat more at one sitting. She also refuses vegetables, baby food, canned cat food, raw turkey, bison, beef, duck, pheasant, and anything except raw ground chicken and Nature's Variety Instinct raw duck bites. (Even those two items she refused for two days intil I replaced them with fresh). Sometimes she will eat pumpkin, banana, watermelon, yogurt or peanut butter, not consistently and in very tiny quantities.

I would dearly love to have the challenge of a chubby hedgie. Every gram she gains is a triumph. She has been hovering between 277 and 282 grams for the past month. I know this sounds like such a First World problem, but the biggest source of stress in my life right now is my hedgehog's diet.

About the pinkies...watching Sophie on YouTube wasn't as bad as I thought it would be...thank you for sharing. I have been so reluctant to supervise because I must did not want to see the carnivore side to my little cutie. I still don't want to mess with my mental image  I prefer to see her nibbling daintily at a tiny cup of yogurt than ripping the tender flesh of an infant animal. I don't mind seeing other animals doing what comes naturally, just not my own.

Again, thanks for your insights and experiences, and I hope you stick around to contribute to the conversation.


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## CoffeeKat

Sheap, I forgot to do the happy dance for you concerning Nina's breakthrough! Believe me, I know the significance of this. 

My visit to the sushi bar was a bust. I thought they made the sushi rolls in-store and that I could buy just a piece or two and pick out the salmon. Wrong. All pre-packaged, and no one in my family eats sushi so...I went in search of anchovies or sardines, maybe tiny shrimp. Everything canned was horrifyingly loaded with sodium, even the anchovy paste. I got a pkece of crab meat from the salad bar (probably imitation crab meat, but fish nonetheless) so we'll see tonight. Hope Nina continues to pig out


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## Draenog

A raw food thread I didn't read yet  It's great to see so many people switching their hedgehogs (or considering it) to a more natural diet. 
I'm very fortunate to have the least picky hedgehogs possible. My girl is a bit pickier than my boy, who eats everything I put in his bowl. But she is still young and babies tend to be pickier, in my experience at least; now she's getting older she's open to more things as well. The meaty stuff and the insects are definitely favourites here though.

I once made this scheme for someone who asked about my hedgehogs' diet, it's not very accurate anymore since it was made when I was transitioning from kibble to a more natural diet (and my girl was still a baby so she got smaller snacks). The tbsp are an estimate, it varied from day to day depending on the extras they got. I'm still using kibble as a part of their diet atm, since there isn't a lot known about nutrition for hedgehogs and they seem to do well on kibble. It's also more convenient since I'm away from home sometimes and the others really don't want to get close to 'nasty stuff' like pinkies etc. Which is one of the reasons why I'm currently experimenting with pre-made portions out of the blender. You can just freeze them in cubes and get them out when you need it, and it doesn't look as nasty.










As for the size of treats, the biggest my hedgehogs get are day old chicks. They do not get them often but they absolutely love them.  Here is a picture of Týr enjoying a chick (you don't see any blood or gore). While it might seem as a lot of food for one hedgehog, they don't eat all of it. Day old chicks are mostly skin and bones, the hedgehogs only eat the softer meat on the inside (and leave a huge mess for me to clear up... the joy of hedgehog ownership... :lol: )



Lilysmommy said:


> If I can add some info to the fish conversation...On the raw feeding group on Facebook, there's a graphic that gets posted quite often on which fish are higher in omega-3 fatty acids (the good ones! and the ones that are deficient in factory farmed meat, though grass-fed meat has higher omega-3's than 6's), as well as which ones are likely to have a high mercury level. I attached the graphic, if anyone's interested in checking it out!
> 
> I'm glad there's been a breakthrough, Sheap! :grin:


Interesting! I feed fish sometimes, usually salmon. But herring might be a better choice according to this graph. I'll have to try it. Eating raw herring is pretty popular here so they sell it a lot. I think anchovies and sardines would be harder since most of them seem to be canned with additional stuff like oil and salt... I'll have to check the market, they might be selling it raw.


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## sheap

Thanks everyone for adding to this thread! I love how the conversation gets so much input from so many people! That's what makes this forum great. 

Last night Nina ate ALL her salmon again (from now on she is getting the "pre-frozen" blocks that I have measured out  ) She left some peas and some kibbles in her bowl! (And of course finished off the mealies...)

I am so so excited about her FINALLY seeming to enjoy her food.  Plus is seems like she is maybe running less, at least she has a less poopy wheel. As I said before she usually runs about 7-8 hours a night. Sometimes she would even still be running when I woke up, about an hour after her light comes on! Now she seems maybe to be slowing down and enjoying her cage a bit more! Now I just need to find some stimulating toys for the both of them! 

Dmitri ate about 20g of meat last night, AND some of his kibble (haven't weighed it yet as I'm _supposed_ to be working right now...teehee) so I think I might need to take Erizo's suggestion and limit the amount of food available to him instead of free feeding. I know that we generally suggest free-feeding on here, but I honestly think Dmitri doesn't know when to stop, and that's why he is over target weight.

I had heard about eggshell as being a good calcium supplement, however, it doesn't supplement phosphorus, which bone does. I think for that reason I will go with the bone meal rather than eggshells. Too bad too, since the BF and I eat about 18 eggs a week between the two of us. I seriously LOVE eggs.  I haven't tried them with the hedgies yet, but will soon. I'm hoping to make some BARF patties that include eggs at some point. 

Then again, if I continue to use the food from the deli I'll really only have to buy the Kelp and Alfalfa and maybe some cod liver oil as supplements.

But then I can't really customize...SO MANY OPTIONS!!

Wait, Kelsey, did you say there is a raw feeding FB group? I need to find that...


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## CoffeeKat

Sheap, I'm thinking that mealworms are high in phosphorous, and that reptile feeders dust the worms with calcium for this reason before feeding. I could be wrong, but it seems that mealworms and eggshells might be a balance? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

LuLu got her pinkie last night and it was the first thing to go from her buffet line. Thankfully I didn't have to see it. Out of her buffet last night, she ate 1 pinkie, 1 large cricket, 3 mealworms, 2 raw duckbites, a pea-sized chunk of watermelon and a nibble or two of banana/yogurt mix. Not much, but at least she's eating a VARIETY of not much. She passed on the rest of her buffet, which included the crab meat, raw chicken meatball, diced mushroom, green beans, cooked carrots, 2 peas and a blueberry (skinned). I'll skip the pinkie tonight and see if she will eat more duck bites...or would the pinkie be as nutritious? My brain hurts.


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## CoffeeKat

https://m.facebook.com/groups/preym...7700686&ref=notif&notif_t=group_comment_reply

Here's the link for the raw feeding group on FB. It's a closed group, primarily dog owners but input from cat, ferret, and reptile owners as well as a few of us hedgie owners. I find it fascinating to "hang out" there.


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## Erizo

> As for the size of treats, the biggest my hedgehogs get are day old chicks. They do not get them often but they absolutely love them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture of Týr enjoying a chick (you don't see any blood or gore). While it might seem as a lot of food for one hedgehog, they don't eat all of it. Day old chicks are mostly skin and bones, the hedgehogs only eat the softer meat on the inside (and leave a huge mess for me to clear up... the joy of hedgehog ownership...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


Draenog -- The chicken chick picture is very interesting to me. Way back when, I took a chance and added a bag to my Rodent Pro order. Sophie didn't show interest in a couple of offerings whole. They are quite easy to skin. Just a small snip lets you wiggle a finger between skin and meat and it's pretty easy to 'invert' the skin and pull it down the body and over the head in one piece. She wouldn't eat it that way either. Lastly, I butchered the chicks, but she wouldn't eat the pieces / organs either.

I did have some concern about feathers or chicken bones being a problem, so I stopped short of giving her a lot of opportunities to have them. I still have the chicks in the freezer. You have no concerns about any feathers or small bones that might be ingested? I got a bit skittish about risk and stopped offering them after just a few tries.

Images (NOTE: GRAPHIC):

Bag of frozen baby chicks;1 to 3 days old:
http://serenebreezes.com/Sophie-pix/chicken-chicks-a.jpg

Single chick:
http://serenebreezes.com/Sophie-pix/chicken-chicks-b.jpg

Skinned chick:
http://serenebreezes.com/Sophie-pix/chicken-chicks-c.jpg

Discarded skin and feathers: 
http://serenebreezes.com/Sophie-pix/chicken-chicks-d.jpg

Whole, skinned chick in feeding bowl:
http://serenebreezes.com/Sophie-pix/chicken-chicks-e.jpg

Close-up:
http://serenebreezes.com/Sophie-pix/chicken-chicks-e-cr.jpg

.............................

A related question:

I got Sophie some Dark Peach Fuzzy mice and they are pretty furry for their size; I was surprised. (Interestingly, the White Peach Fuzzies basically don't even have fuzz.) She was not initially impressed, but I didn't really given her a fair chance to have them. I got concerned about how much fur she might ingest and whether that could be a problem. I don't know if she'll take to them but is it fine to put them in rotation and give her a chance to like them? With the size mix of pinky mice and rats she is already getting, she doesn't need the chicks or the Dark Peach Fuzzies, but if I'm being overly cautious, they can be added to the schedule.

.


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## CoffeeKat

Erizo, I don't know about hedgehogs specifically but I know in the raw feeding group referenced above, many dog owners feed whole prey with fur and feathers intact, reasoning that this provides fiber to the diet. The owners of these prey-fed dogs and cats say that when their pet has ingested enough, they spit out the excess. Draenog would be better able to comment on hedgie-specific concerns.


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## sheap

I remember from my book that hair and skin is actually quite good for animals to digest.  Feathers might be a different story, but I am leaning towards "they are safe."

And you should have no compunctions about feeding raw chicken (or baby chicken...) bones as only COOKED bones pose health risks.

Thanks CoffeeKat for that link, I am going to request an invite. I hope to learn a bunch from there!


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## ellisrks01

Coffeekat, thanks for the Facebook link. I don't have a FB but seems like I can hang out and read great info there. 
I'm glad Lu Lu ate her pinky last night. It sounds like there was plenty to choose from.I have to pass a reptile store on the way home I think I'll grab one to try with my boy Bruce this week.
By the way both my guys are loven the raw duck bites!


Sheap, I started feeding eggs becuase for some reason my GF buys them and we never eat them. I tried scrambled in the microwave and hardboiled both wouldn't eat them untill I made patties/omelet with beef and chicken in it. They love it like that and will always eat it. So I think that's a good way to get them to start eating egg if they won't.
Now I can occasionally sneak plain pan scrambled eggs into the bowl with thier raw bits.


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## Lilysmommy

Muscle meat is high in phosphorus while having no calcium. I wouldn't be too concerned about amount of phosphorus in the diet. Usually phosphorus is the easy one to get, whereas calcium is the one that needs to be watched because you need more calcium than phosphorus. Usually people neglect the calcium amount, which is when issues like Metabolic Bone Disorder develops.

This is more for dogs, but could still be interesting for you guys to read: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1659&aid=652 Here's the one for cats as well: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=1+1400&aid=651

My wildlife rehab manual has information about calcium & phosphorus and balancing them in it, I can grab it when I go home to feed my dog shortly so I can double-check what it has to say. I seem to remember it saying that most animals need a 2:1 ratio for Ca & P, but I could be wrong. If you have eggshells available, personally I wouldn't see any issues with drying them & using them for calcium instead of bonemeal. But it's up to you! Both are acceptable options. 

Hair and feathers do provide fiber, which helps with keeping poops healthy. They don't provide any other nutrients as far as I know - they just come out in the poop. Skin is mostly fat, so if you have an overweight hedgie, skinning things like chicks probably wouldn't hurt. You do need some fat in the diet for a healthy animal, but removing some of it shouldn't cause any problems. Some meats are fattier than others as well, so even if you cut off excess fat, skin, etc., there's still plenty to contribute to the diet. I don't think I'd be concerned at all about hedgies eating baby mice & rats that have some fur, I'm not sure about chick feathers. I wouldn't think they'd be big enough to cause problems though. And giving the finickiness of some hedgies, I could see them just eating around them once they have access to the good stuff. :lol:

Glad Kat got the link shared! I'm loving the raw group, they've been a huge help with switching my dog to raw so far. I fear for the outcome of my classes once they start next week though...I spend far too much time on the group reading over posts & chatting. :lol: The group also has a TON of files with information and links. That includes files for essential vitamins with information on their importance & roles in the body, where to find them, etc.


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## CoffeeKat

Well, LuLu seems to have chosen her own diet from a huge smorgasbord of options, and while I'm really happy that she's eating, I'm not entirely sure I should be comfortable with her choices. For the past two nights, she has eaten the same things: a pinkie mouse, 4 pieces of Instinct raw duck bites, 2 mealworms,2 wax worms, a cricket, and a small amount of watermelon and banana. Her poop is perfect, but not much of it, and she dearly loves her pinkie....tears into it before I can even step away, so I've had to be quick because I still don't want to watch it.

I'm pleased with the source of the pinkies. Got them from a small Mom and Pop pet store that has been in business for 40 years, they raise their own in clean, humane conditions (they let me see their breeder room) and allow the pinkies to fill their tummies with milk before heading to the gas chamber and freezer.
However, I think I've read that pinkies are not very nutritious. I would rather have her eat more of the duck bites because of the balanced nutrition, but she politely refuses to do it my way. 

Today I am experimenting with "scenting" to see if I can trick her into eating what I want her to eat. I have a pinkie mouse and duck bites thawing together in a small zip-lock bag, hoping the scent of the mouse will transfer to the duck bites and excite her on some level. I've never tried this before, but I know it's fairly common in the reptile world. Don't know of it will work, but will keep you posted.

If she continues to only eat what she's eating now (she also gets an additional 6 or 7 worms during the day) how concerned should I be? should I try to add pet supplements?


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## lilsurfergrlsp

Lilysmommy said:


> My wildlife rehab manual has information about calcium & phosphorus and balancing them in it, I can grab it when I go home to feed my dog shortly so I can double-check what it has to say. I seem to remember it saying that most animals need a 2:1 ratio for Ca & P, but I could be wrong. If you have eggshells available, personally I wouldn't see any issues with drying them & using them for calcium instead of bonemeal. But it's up to you! Both are acceptable options.


Thanks for the links about the dog raw diet! But, most articles I've read on the calcium deficiency problem say that it's a 1:1 ration for Calcium & Phosphorus. Here's an article that I found helpful:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/balancing-the-calciumphosphorous-ratio-in-a-raw-diet-for-dogs/

Also,

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-feeding-primer/

I know that these sites cater more to dogs, but it might be the same for hedgehogs. And I apologize if this has already been discussed; unfortunately I didn't read the entire thread before posting this.

But the eggshell idea is very popular, from what I've heard! I've been experimenting with feeding raw eggs to my dogs, but is it safe for hedgehogs too? For Tansy, I've been sticking with the Nature's Instinct Raw Bites, and 2-3 mealworms every other night or so, plus flax seed oil, but that's about it. Feeding pinkies and baby chicks is very interesting - I didn't even think about feeding that kind of natural protein! I'm waiting to order from mypetcarnivore.com to try feeding her other proteins; hedgehogs are definitely harder to "experiment" foods with!


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## gracefulchaos01

Pinkies and baby chicks are permanently banned from my hedgies menu. I personally would be highly squeamish about them but Jason, a mouse and rat lover, said oh hedoubletoothpicks no. 
So, instinct bites it is. I'm thinking about hard boiled egg tonight. Maybe I'll scrounge up something else interesting. 
I actually measured out their cold food last night at 20 grams per hedgehog. It is only a bit more than I was already giving them. I felt pretty ok about that.


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## Lilysmommy

I've seen mixed opinions on the nutrition of pinkies. I don't think they're necessarily bad. But I did wonder about their Ca: P ratio & went looking. I found this - http://www.nessexotic.com/docs/Calcium.pdf It says they have a ratio of 1:1.1 (in favor of phosphorus). That combined with the crickets (1:5.4 unless fortified), mealworms (1:15), and waxworms (1:23, info provided by my wildlife rehab manual), means that I think I would supplement a little bit of calcium to make sure that stays in balance. You can either use crushed eggshells or bonemeal powder & try to calculate & measure out an exact amount to supplement each night (or a couple nights a week), or you could get calcium powder sold for reptiles and dust the insects & pinkie in it before feeding, like reptile owners do.

I'm not sure about supplementing anything else, to be honest...That's a good question. If it'd make you feel better, you could check into dog vitamin supplements & calculate the dosage down for her. I don't think it would hurt, at the very least. But you could also see what your vet has to say, if you think they'll be open enough to a discussion about this kind of diet, or see if there's a holistic vet in your area that you could chat to. They tend to be a bit friendlier about raw & natural diets.

I figured out what I was remember regarding the Ca: P ratios, lilsurfer! Double-checked in my manual and it says the ratio for many adult birds/mammals is 1.5:1, and since many animals in wildlife rehab could use extra calcium for other issues (growing, bone repair, egg laying, lactation, etc.), the recommendation for formulating most of the diets is to use a ratio of 2:1. I would guess anywhere from 1:1 to 1.5:1 should probably be sufficient then...but I would definitely at least make sure it's 1:1. I went looking very briefly (I might do some more searching when I have a chance, but I have to be up at 5 am tomorrow...blegh!) and found this - http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=18+1798&aid=2806 They say a 1.2-1.5:1 ratio, though I didn't look closely at their references.

I would say yes, raw egg is safe for hedgies too.  I remember one person who had a long-eared hedgie fed him whole quail eggs. Those would be perfect size for a hedgie, if you can get them! I think they can sometimes be found at Asian markets. Otherwise, Perhaps a chicken egg split into quarters, a quarter fed every other day? There was recently a couple discussions on the raw feeding FB group regarding freezing eggs & general consensus was it's a great way to save them or feed them. You could freeze the egg (in an ice cube tray or silicone muffin tin), then cut it into quarters & save in a baggy or something like that.

Edit: Wanted to include another link because the whole website is fascinating. http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Micronutrient/Calcium_Vit_D_Imbalance_Hhog.htm Includes information from a study on calcium deficiencies in hedgehogs (and some other animals), including warning signs. You can click on the hedgehogs link (under Clinical Signs) to go to the page for European Hedgehogs. They're not the same as our hedgies, but it could still be an interesting read. They have pages for Four-Toed Hedgehogs & Algerian Hedgehogs as well, but they're not filled out.


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## gracefulchaos01

Oh! The egg thing is pretty interesting! I have somewhat easy access to a variety if eggs, from chicken and quail to ostrich and turkey. I have an amazing grocier who travels every weekend to local farms and brings all kinds of local goodies in for sale. 
If I wanted to pay through the nose I could get all kinds of organic locally raised meats and such. I save those bison ribeyes all for myself though.


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## lilsurfergrlsp

gracefulchaos01 said:


> Oh! The egg thing is pretty interesting! I have somewhat easy access to a variety if eggs, from chicken and quail to ostrich and turkey. I have an amazing grocier who travels every weekend to local farms and brings all kinds of local goodies in for sale.
> If I wanted to pay through the nose I could get all kinds of organic locally raised meats and such. I save those bison ribeyes all for myself though.


That's awesome!! Where are you located in MD? You are so lucky to get access to such a variety of foods!

There are a ton of Asian markets around me, so I'll definitely be checking them out for the quail eggs. Thanks so much for the tips, Lilysmommy!.


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## CoffeeKat

Thank you, Kelsey, for doing so much research for all of us. I for one appreciate all your help, information and expertise more than I can say. I think I will cruise around my pet store tomorrow and check out calcium and multivitamins, just in case my "scenting" experiment doesn't work.

Grace, I would be so excited if my girl ate 20 grams of food! I put about 18 grams out for her every night, just in case, and she eats maybe 10 or 11 of that. The fact that she gets so excited about pinkies makes up for the revulsion I feel in offering them. Rodents, reptiles and arachnids totally creep me out.

Also, Kimberly Goertzen in her awesome book recommends a calcium/phosphorous ratio of 1:1 (page 90), so thank you Kelsey for figuring all the variables for me. Stuff like that makes my brain hurt.


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## gracefulchaos01

Kat, that's 20 grams of cold food only. Last night was a few raw bites and the vital brand chicken tube thing. 
Except for Gayle who barely touched her cold food. And they all made a great showing on their kibble as well, except for Titan who hardly touched his kibble. I made sure he got extra wet food tonight. I expected weight loss with his move, but I'm starting to get concerned. He won't eat his old kibble. He won't eat my kibble. But he will eat some various amount of cold/wet food. 
I'm about to start a food and general observation journal for the pokey kids. It's too much to track in my head anymore lol 
To make it more interesting Sebastian just started quilling. Which puts her at right around 9 months of age because it is certainly her final adult quilling. But she isn't feeling awesome. Everyone got heavy oatmeal baths last night. Especially Sebastian and Titan. Titan, who is finally easing off his quilling and actually seems to like bathing. That was different. 
Tonight everyone gets raw bites and canned mealworms. 
Oh, and a question about mealworms. I bought a small container of live ones tonight and brought them home and put then in a glad container to feed them. They were fricken tiny!!! Are they supposed to only be a 1/4 inch long? My canned worms are usually about a full inch and pretty fat. These are... just infants. 
Do I have to grow them myself? Or do I have unrealistic expectations?


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## CoffeeKat

Around here, meal worms come in sizes...small, medium, large, giant (treated with hormones or something to stop them from transforming into bugs, so I avoid those) and superworms which I also avoid because they can bite. Sounds like you have the small or medium size. Next time, ask for large then open the container and look. Don't know how fast the ones you have will grow.


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## DesireeM81

Grace, my girls are still the same way too. They won't eat the old kibble, they won't eat the new kibble but they will eat the raw beef medallions and wet food. River does like mealworms so I've been feeding her those every night as well. Rose hates bugs it seems. 

Right now my brood is on three kinds of a kibble, chicken, lamb and fish are the proteins (adding duck and getting rid of chicken as soon as this bag is done) and a 1/2 tablespoon of wet food, rabbit based. Penny and Winter get a quarter of a raw beef medallion since they eat everything and then River and Rose get split a hole one. 

I also feed them a variety of bugs from dubia roaches, mealworms, superworms (I have my fiancee cut their heads off but still feed them the heads), crickets and hornworms. I want to add phoenix worms but haven't found them yet and day old chicks as well. I also give them some baby food every couple of a nights to keep it interesting. I am going to try Nara's Meatball recipe. 

I try to keep it interesting. I feed the bugs during their bonding time at night because I don't want to leave them in the cage and I have a schedule I am trying follow. Hopefully I can keep all the bugs alive as well. :lol:


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## lilsurfergrlsp

For you guys that feed wet food - what brands do you use?


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## gracefulchaos01

I'm a blue buffalo girl. We feed it pretty exclusively. I do look at other brands though and picked up some Instinct canned dog food last night to try their venison and lamb flavors. I really want to branch out from only BB but when you look at other quality foods for fish products and the second ingredient is chicken? Really? Sigh.


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## DesireeM81

I'm using Nature's Valley Instinct Rabbit Formula. It's for dogs. My problem with blue buffalo is every bag has freaking chicken in it. TBH I didn't check the wet food. I also have prescription wet food (Puppy A/D) that I am feeding the older girls with. I also use Nature's Valley Instinct Raw Beef Medallions. I like these because they are raw and they are a lot like wet food in consistency. Plus even my pickiest hedgehog enjoys it.


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## AnimalFreak

I have a question about raw feeding. I'm very interested in it but I'm worried about it not having enough protein/fat/fiber. I assume that it has more protein than kibble but the percentages just show up lower because it has a lot of moisture? Or something like that...I could supplement with veggies/eggs/insects too. Here are a few links to the meats I am talking about (They have a guaranteed analysis at the bottom) https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...oduct_id=19&virtuemart_category_id=14&lang=en
https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...duct_id=132&virtuemart_category_id=14&lang=en
https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...oduct_id=82&virtuemart_category_id=17&lang=en
https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...roduct_id=7&virtuemart_category_id=12&lang=en
https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...roduct_id=31&virtuemart_category_id=1&lang=en

Is that variety good? Is herring or whiting better? Also, would I store that in a freezer and how long would it last. I'm only planning on getting one hedgehog so I don't want it to go bad if I don't use it quickly.


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## Lilysmommy

I would definitely supplement with veggies & insects, at least. Hedgies aren't full carnivores, so I wouldn't suggest a meat-only diet for them. If you can't get your hedgie to eat veggies on their own or blended into the ground meat mixes from MPC, I would try using a commercial raw food that includes veggies in their formula, like Nature's Variety, Primal, etc., or would supplement with kibble or canned wet food.

I wouldn't be concerned about enough protein. The meat & insects would provide plenty, and given the extra moisture, they should have no problems with the protein amount. You do have to calculate the dry matter basis (DMB) if you want to compare the mixes to dry kibble. For example, for the ground lamb, the DMB protein is 35% and the DMB fat is 50%. For the ground rabbit, the DMB protein is 64% and the DMB fat is 24%.

Likewise, I wouldn't be concerned about fat. Lamb is quite high in fat, and rabbit & fish are both low in it. I think I would go with one of the birds instead of beef, personally, since their ground beef mix is very low in fat (since they're young calves rather than adult cows). It looks like they're currently out of their ground turkey, but they usually offer that as well. They do have ground chicken on there though. If your hedgie is putting on too much weight, you can feed a little less of the higher fat meats, and a bit more rabbit/fish, and if they need more, add more of the lamb or chicken/turkey/whatever else. If you supplement insects & veggies, those will add fiber to the diet. Insects will also add fat, depending on which ones you feed (waxworms are very high in fat, mealworms a little less so, crickets are low in fat, etc.), and veggies obviously don't have much fat either, so upping the veggie amount can help with weight as well.

Herring would be better than whiting, it's higher in the healthy omega-3's, as far as I know. If you do decide to try out beef, I would suggest getting the ground whole young beef instead of the beef supermix - https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...roduct_id=66&virtuemart_category_id=1&lang=en The supermix does not have the PMR balance of 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs, it has extras in it.

Definitely do a lot of reading and research if you want to try out raw feeding. Read about the different vitamins that are necessary to all animals, check out the amounts they're fed in in dry dog & cat foods (since we don't know what hedgie nutrient requirements are, but we do know they do well on the balances cats & dogs are given), find out in what fruits, veggies, & meats those vitamins are available in a good amount, etc. This is very new territory for the hedgie world as far as I know, so there's not much definite information available for hedgehogs specifically, and if you do decide to raw feed your hedgie, keep in mind that it's experimental! I'm obviously very enthusiastic about the whole idea, but you do need to make sure you do all the research and know that you're feeding a balanced diet. A kibble diet is better than an unbalanced raw/natural diet.

Oh...and before I forget, yes, you would store the ground meat mixes from MPC in the freezer. You can thaw them out when you get them and portion them out (you could use ice cube trays, make them into little meatballs & freeze them on parchment paper on a metal baking sheet, etc.), then store in a plastic freezer bag in the freezer. You can probably keep them for 5-6 months, at least, I would think. For dogs, they don't care much if meat is old & freezer-burnt, from what I've read, but hedgies tend to be pickier in general. :roll:


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## CoffeeKat

*sigh* now I'm confused about calcium, which I've decided I need to add a dusting of to balance out phosphorous. I really lean more toward human-grade bonemeal, but calcium powder that reptile owners use to dust food for their guys seems a logical choice. My question is: would it be the same, basically (aside from the purity of the bonemeal)? I guess all bonemeal is calcium, but not all calcium is bonemeal.

My experiment with "scenting" got mixed results. Mouse-scented duck bites are a big hit. Mouse-scented raw ground chicken offered in the shape of a pinkie was half-drug out of the dish and left untouched, which is fine but now she won't eat chicken at all. A week ago she loved her chicken and wouldn't eat her duck bites. She is so fickle. I did score a chicken neck vertebrae at the grocery store (it cost me 8 cents and 10 minutes discussing hedgehogs with the meat man) so I need to cut that up and freeze the pieces. 

Animal Freak, your discussion in another thread about The Honest Kitchen makes buying in bulk sound good in theory, but it's a tricky proposition with hedgehogs. Some are so predictable that it just might work (but they are sensitive to freshness), but many others are picky and fickle for no reason apparent to us. It's what keeps us mentally agile


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## Lilysmommy

As far as I know, you're correct on the statement regarding bonemeal & calcium powder. I *think* calcium powder for reptiles is just pure calcium (though some brands have vitamin D added, and should say if they do). Bonemeal has other trace minerals & such that bones contain, I'm not sure what exactly. This might be a good question to ask on the raw feeding group to see if anyone knows which might be best. I know there's numerous people on there that have reptiles (there was a post recently about sharing pics of other raw-fed pets, lots of reptiles!), so someone might be able to help you out with the differences & pros and cons of using one over the other. Sorry I can't help more!

Sounds like Lulu just likes keeping you confused...little stinker. :lol:

Edit: Doh, I forgot I have a bottle of bonemeal tablets. Here's the nutrition info:

Serving size: 4 tablets
(amounts are per serving)

Total Carbohydrate - 1g
Dietary Fiber - 1g
Vitamin D - 400IU
Vitamin K - 40mcg
Calcium - 1000mg
Iron - 1.8mg
Phosphorus - 400mg
Magnesium - 11mg
Zinc - 80mcg
Copper - 13mcg
Manganese - 11mcg

Mcg is micrograms (1000 micrograms in a milligram, 1000 milligrams in a gram). IU is international unit.


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## sheap

I feel like every morning I win a small battle with my two!

The amount of kibble they are eating is going down each night. Dmitri is only eating 1-2g of his kibble and Nina is only eating 2-3g of hers!  They are both finishing their meat. :grin:

Kelsey, it's good to know that their phosphorus intake is covered by the meats (does that include the salmon?) because that means I don't necessarily have to order bonemeal! Whoo! That's more money that can go into their food in a different way :lol:

I think I will start using the eggshells. I am not happy that the salmon has no bone in it. Hopefully adding finely ground eggshell won't put Nina off her food. 

I think I have made a decision too....I am not going to buy any more of the BioComplete food from the pet deli.

My reasonings are:
1) I don't really like the vegetables they have chosen as their additives. They only use green beans, carrots, blueberries and cranberries. Now, those are good veggies...but not enough of a variety to suit me! 
2) only SOME of their grinds have bone and organ in them. This is a big deal breaker for me. Why am I spending the time and money to get this food if it's not even a real BARF diet? I will just have to supplement bone meal/egg shells anyways...I might as well save a couple bucks and buy ground meat and organs from a butcher and that way I can customize the ingredients. 

Any one have thoughts on that?

I even have a butcher in mind.  When I was first researching places to get full-grind I called a butcher, explained what I wanted and he said "Oh, yeah I do raw diet for my dog too!" and we talked about it for awhile. He doesn't offer full grind, but if the eggshells are a good calcium supplement, then I should be fine, right?

I am still going to be ordering the kelp and alfalfa supplements to take care of various vitamins and minerals...and I might throw in a bottle of cod liver oil and maybe salmon body oil....sheesh! so many items in my Amazon shopping cart! :lol:


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## Lilysmommy

Oh Sheap, one thing you might want to keep in mind for Nina (which just occurred to me) is that if you stick with the fish as her main protein (or only one) is that fish doesn't have much (if any) fat. So you'll want to make sure she's getting fat in her diet in some way, whether that's with trying another protein with more fat (such as lamb, duck, beef, etc.) or with her insects, etc. I'm glad they're both doing so well eating their new food though! 

Your plan sounds pretty good to me! Being able to customize everything & choose what to add in is always a plus, I think, provided you can get everything you need. Sounds like you can though! Do you have a grinder or something to use for organs? Or can the butcher grind them for you? My only problem with organs is even with my dog, the amount she needs is so little that it's not worth it to me to buy whole organs & try to portion them up & get her to eat them whole (since I've read a lot about dogs not liking the taste or texture & taking a bit of work to get them to eat them). I went the easy route & just bought an organ grind from Reel Raw, which is going to make it so much easier. Now here's hoping she'll still eat the organ grind once I introduce it... :roll: 

Also, just one more comment, I think personally I'd go for the salmon oil over cod liver oil. I've read numerous times on the Facebook group that salmon oil is better & have seen people say to avoid cod liver oil, but I'm still not exactly sure why. I'll try looking to see if I can find it explained somewhere, or if you want, I can ask. I'm guessing it's either an issue with sourcing or purity or something.


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## sheap

Interesting about the oil! The book that I am reading says it's the only supplement he regularly uses. I wonder why the disagreement. I will look around the FB group too (I joined and have been mostly just looking at the new posts, not the archives  )

And it's also interesting that you say fish has very little fat (which is proved by just looking at it compared to say beef or chicken!) but contradicted by the giant oil slick left on Nina's plate in the morning! :lol: I wonder if salmon just has more oil than other fishes? Either way I am hoping to get her introduced to more proteins soon!

The butcher should be able to grind it for me. I know he said he orders it in, he seemed so nice I think he might be willing to grind it for me! He _might_ even be willing to grind some organs INTO a meat too! (Ok, Sarah, don't get ahead of yourself here! :lol: )

The interesting thing is that now that she's eating all her meat, she's stopped eating her buggies (or most of them anyways). Any ideas on why this might be? I'm thinking that she might actually like the meat MORE? Or maybe her body is telling her it's getting all it needs from the meat? Just spit-balling here....


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## Lilysmommy

...Oh duh. I was thinking of the herring & whiting that My Pet Carnivore sells, which both list 0% fat. But I forgot that oil = fat, so... :lol: Ignore me! Salmon is definitely very oily, which is a good thing - they have the good oil, high in omega-3's. I don't know why I completely blanked on that, lol.

I'd lean more towards she likes the meat more, but I'm honestly not sure! I'm still not sure how much I trust animals in captivity to balance their diet since they can't actually search out their own food...but I could be wrong & maybe it is that!


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## Lilysmommy

Aha! I searched the group and found the reason why cod liver oil is not recommended - it's very high in vitamin A. VitA is a fat-soluble vitamin, so the body stores it instead of excreting. It can be more easily overdosed because of that, and vitamin A toxicity is a hazard. That's also the reason you have to be careful how much liver is fed in a raw diet, since liver is very high in vitamin A. PMR percentages only use 5% of the overall balance for liver. Good for lots of vitamins, just not good in excess (like anything).


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## CoffeeKat

Sarah, you've mentioned kelp a couple of times, and I remember seeing a reference to it in the FB group, but what does it provide? The only thing that sticks in my mind about it is being sure it's Atlantic, not Pacific kelp because of the Japanese nuclear disaster. 

I'm so glad your kids are liking their food! Could be that Nina is just excited about her new food and will return to eating her bugs when the "new wears off". I hope so, because I really believe that insects are an important part of a hedgie diet. It's easy to get caught up in what's best for dogs when so many theories are being put forth, and lively discussions taking place on a wide variety of subjects. In one way, we are fortunate to have access to so much information, but the frustrating part is that we have to interpret and filter this information intended for dogs and cats and somehow apply it to hedgehogs. And one thing we DO know, is that hedgehogs eat bugs. If she continues to reject them, maybe you could chop some up and hide them in her meat.

Right after I posted about my calcium confusion, I began to think that what I should have done is research the issue myself before jumping online and expecting Kelsey to do it for me. I already feel a little guilty taking up so much of your time, Kelsey, when you have so many other hedgie owners really needing words of wisdom and experience, and you're starting school soon as well. But I do appreciate all your help and support, and promise to do my own research. Most of the time  But you ARE a fountain of knowledge.


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## Lilysmommy

Don't mind me, I'll be turning red in the corner here. :lol: Thank you, though. I'm just surprised you haven't all booted me out for talking so much on this subject! I bore most people to death talking about animal-related subjects or my dog's raw diet, etc., heh. I'm happy to be of use here. 

And don't worry, I'm glad you did bring up the topic and the differences between the two sources and such! The questions are good ones to consider, and might be something others haven't thought of, which gives them something to consider in their own diets. Good luck with researching on the matter, and do please let us know what you find! I know I'll be curious to hear which you decide to use and why. 

(Honestly, I'm not sure yet if I'll be on here less when classes start in two days because I'll be studying or if I'll be on here more...instead of studying. :lol


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## sheap

I second the appreciation of Kelsey! I am so thankful that we have someone like you to help us with all sorts of technical things relating to this (and other hedgie stuff!!)  We would never boot you out....without you we'd all be standing around poking ground meat with a stick and looking at each other blankly...:lol:

Kat, let me quote THE BOOK about kelp powder, if I may! 

"Kelp is a biologically appropriate source of iodine and over 60 trace minerals. Being a 'sea vegetable,' kelp also contains other valuable nutrients, including 21 amino acids and other health promoting phytonutrients."

There's some other stuff he says too, but it's all kinda in the same vein of iodine and minerals. 

I just asked about egg shells in the FB group. Hopefully I get some good responses and I will share them here!


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## lilsurfergrlsp

I'm just going to pop in here and mention a tip I've read about egg shells in multiple raw diet sites - egg shells are a great source of calcium, and depending on your pet, they can be fed either intact as the shell, or ground up. They just need to be washed and dried first  for instance, for my pups, I feed them raw eggs a few times a week. I always save the shells, rinse them for a little in the sink, then dry them (it can be done at room temp over a couple days, or you can do it in the oven if you want it right away), then I put a bunch of shells in the food processor and grind them up to a powder. Then, depending on the size of your pet, you can give them a teaspoon, up to a tablespoon (I do that for my 100 lb shepherd though). I'll try to look for the articles I read this in and post them if I can


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## sheap

Thanks!  Do you know if the dosage for egg shells is the same as for bonemeal? (1tsp/lb)


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## Draenog

Erizo said:


> I did have some concern about feathers or chicken bones being a problem, so I stopped short of giving her a lot of opportunities to have them. I still have the chicks in the freezer. You have no concerns about any feathers or small bones that might be ingested? I got a bit skittish about risk and stopped offering them after just a few tries.


I'm not very concerned about it. I was at first, but after I've seen them eating I think they know very well what they can and cannot eat. The chicks barely have feathers, it's more like soft 'fur' and my hedgehogs don't really eat it. They start at the belly, chew through the skin and eat the organs and the soft meat inside but leave the other stuff - head, legs, bones, skin/feathers. They do have to chew through a bit of bone sometimes but from the sound of it they manage just fine. The bones in that particular area aren't huge either. They just crunch them.

I feed eggs too, usually cooked. Mine tend to just eat the yellow part (which is obvs the 'best' part of the egg)

Someone mentioned poop and the amount of it; I think it's normal for them to poop less when they're on a kibble-free diet or getting less kibble. Kibble contains a lot of fillers which makes them poop more. Raw feeding should mean less (and in my experience, less stinky as well) poop.


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## lilsurfergrlsp

sheap said:


> Thanks!  Do you know if the dosage for egg shells is the same as for bonemeal? (1tsp/lb)


No problem! And I actually found this article that is very helpful:

http://www.pet-grub.com/part1/how_to_make_your_own_ground_egg_shell_calcium_supplement_for_dogs_and_cats

It goes over different ways to feed eggshells, how to sterilize them, benefits, etc. Also, it goes over the Calcium to Phosphorus ratio that was discussed before (I believe the author recommend a 2:1 ratio, but adds that anywhere between 1:1 to 2:1 is acceptable). And therefore, it depends on the type of meat and how much of it that you're feeding. There's a handy chart if you scroll down; that said, I'm pretty sure the dosage for egg shells is significantly less than that for bonemeal (ex: 1 tsp for a pound of food). My vet recommended that I give my larger dog a whole tablespoon (split up between AM/PM, and only a couple times a week), only because he's older and has very bad hind legs due to an ACL surgery and lack of rehabilitation afterwards. I give my small dog about a half tsp. So, I would guess it's a tiny amount for a hedgehog, depending on what protein you're feeding


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## sheap

That coincides with what I found out about eggshells.  The boyfriend and I had eggs this morning and I saved the shells, rinsed them quickly under water, and dried them in the oven (cuz I have NO patience :lol: ).

I put the oven on "WARM" for about two hours or so (I am "at work" so I didn't really keep track of the time) and then kept the door closed and turned off the oven. About an hour later I pulled them out and put them in the coffee grinder (thankfully the BF doesn't use it anymore, and I don't drink coffee so I don't care!) and pulverized them.

It was actually surprisingly easy to grind them in the...er no-longer-coffee grinder. :grin: I tried using it to break up kibble once and it was a total failure! The only words of caution I have are DON'T BREATHE. The eggshell dust smells terrible and sticks to the inside of your nose so you can't stop smelling it. I had to use a nasal spray and about five Kleenex's to get rid of that smell! :roll:

I also asked on the FB group about a dosage. I was told the dosage is 1g per LB of meat. And that one tsp contains 1.9g. So, roughly 1/2 a tsp per pound of meat. Exactly like SurferGrl said! 

That's a great link! I am bookmarking it now!!


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## CoffeeKat

Yes, great link and great discussion. My own research had not taken me any further than eliminating bonemeal as an option because of the controversy about possible contamination by mercury and lead. Eggshells look like the way to go, so thank you all on the information about that. I do remember crushing some eggshells right after we started our raw adventure, and got them fairly fine but not powdery, and Lu would not touch anything with the shells on it. Using my old coffee grinder is a great idea!


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## DesireeM81

Bente, thanks for answering my question before I posted it. I was wondering if the more raw based diet my hedgies have been getting is why they weren't pooping as much or if they were constipated. It is nice to have to clean only a small amount of poop out every day. :grin:


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## sheap

Sorry it's been awhile since I updated! It's been SUPER busy at work (when I usually log on here :lol: ) and the quilly kids have been doing SO WELL on raw that I figured it's not the end of the world if I don't update for a few days! 

Nina has been eating ALL her salmon every night. I've been supplementing it will the egg shells for the past two nights and she hasn't even noticed. I saw in the post about eggshells that it would be best to not give every night, so I think I have decided to do two days on, two days off. Does that sound like too much? I'm worried about Nina and her salmon since there's no bones in it...

I've also started to introduce her to the duck! I've given her 1g of duck each night and mixed it in with her salmon (which involves thawing both in the fridge for a few hours so I can squish it all together, but I don't mind the extra work..yet) and so far she has snarfed it all up regardless of meat-type! In fact, she ate exactly 0G of her kibble last night!! Woo!! Next I'm going to try and get her to eat some veg (after she's taking the duck on its own, of course).

Dmitri continues to snarf down his meat regardless of what it looks like! :lol: I think I'm going to start introducing him to veg in his meat mix too....ever since I've been giving him 20g of meat each night, he hardly looks at his veggies anymore!!

Tonight is the day I weigh them, so hopefully Dmitri's lost some weight and given it to Nina....but not in the prego way! No more babies for those two! :lol:

This weekend I am going to the butcher to poke around and ask some questions. Hopefully we can get something worked out regarding organs (and tripe, maybe?) well, we'll see!

Hope everyone has a safe and relaxing Labor Day weekend! I know I will, since it means more time for the hedgies! Nina is getting a second floor this weekend, pictures to follow in the cage forum.


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## Lilysmommy

How much eggshell are you adding? As long as it's proportioned correctly to the amount of meat (1/2 tsp per 1 pound), it should be fine to have it in the meat every night, I think...I got the impression that at that ratio, it'd be the 80/10/10 balance of the prey model diet. I might have missed something though, so I could be wrong!

I'm glad they're both eating so well, that's fantastic!  Hopefully Dmitri proves to love his meat enough that he won't mind even if some veggies spoil it. :lol: Good luck with the butcher & cage addition!


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## sheap

OK! Finally updating. Sorry it's been so long, but this weekend was a "get everything around the house done that could possibly need to be done" kinda weekend.  But the plus side is the BF finally finished the sour beer for me! I am going to pop one in the fridge as soon as I'm done with work!  I also got Nina's loft added, which I don't think she really cares about...:roll:

Ok so update with new weights:

*Nina: 314g* This is an all time high for her! I am so happy to report that she has been eating all her salmon and (as long as it's properly mixed) anything else I add to the salmon too!  I tried to get her to eat the duck without it being completely mixed into the salmon...no dice. She ate all the salmon and none of the duck :roll:

The next thing we are going to do for Nina (actually, I think I will do it tonight) is stop giving kibble. She is leaving a bit of salmon in her meat-bowl so I figure she is regulating her amount of food. So if I take her off the kibble, and maybe add some more veg to her fish, she will fill herself up. I am almost out of the salmon pet-deli food. But the good thing is the fish market across the street sells salmon for like $4/lb (WAY better than the $10 at the pet deli) so I will be hitting that up soon to restock. I will also grab some whitefish and other cheap fishes to make a delicious medley for Mrs. Nina Ballerina! 

*Dmitri: 679g* meaning he's gained 9g since our last weigh in.  I really hate to do it, but I am limiting his food intake. I added 2 tsp of crushed zucchini to his meat (still getting around 18-20g) last night and only gave him 10 kibbles. He ate everything, plus the buggies. :/

I think he's going to start only getting 10 kibbles, 2 crickets and his meat with 1tsp veg mixed in. I'm hoping the veg will fill him up without adding any fat. Thoughts?

They both get a sprinkle of eggshell added to their meat. I know it's not scientific, but I had portioned the meat and froze it before I started using the eggshell. I hope this won't do any harm. I'm not as worried about Dmitri getting calcium as I am Nina, since her meat has NO bones while his has some. However, I think he might need the extra calcium too to help build up his strength. He sometimes will sit down on his hind legs while we are cuddling/exploring as though his girth is too much for this little legs to carry...

One (more) good thing to update on: Nina - my avid runner who used to make her wheel so messy over night that my living room became a disaster area - is still running, but NOT making her wheel as messy!  I guess the benefits of raw diet are real! I can even *gasp* go a day or two without cleaning her wheel! :lol:


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## CoffeeKat

Great update...sounds like you are on the right track. Does her poop smell worse with fish in the diet, or is that just with fishy kibble?


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## sheap

Honestly, her poop doesn't smell at all anymore! The only thing that does is the fish bowl in the mornings. It's very oily and there's always some fish bits dried up and left over. it doesn't smell rotten...just fishy. Granted I did just get a HEPA filter that runs 24/7...but even when I'm cleaning her cage the smell is minimal.  I think the reason fishy kibble makes poop smell terrible is because if the rendering process? But I'm not 100% on that, so don't quote me! :lol:

Last night, Dmitri ate all his meat/veggie mix, both his crickets, and even left two kibbles in his bowl! I'm going to try this combo for a week and see if he loses any weight. If not, I'm going to cut back even more on his kibble.  poor boy, I feel like such a bad momma for letting him get so big, and then not letting him eat as much as he wants. 

Nina got no kibble last night, and I don't think she noticed! She ate all but scraps of her fish/duck/zucchini mix, and even left some mealies in the bowl!  also she is definitely going into the loft...I put a mealie up there and it's gone this morning! :grin:


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## Lilysmommy

I'm glad to hear things are going so well! 

On the fishy poop smell thing, I remember LizardGirl saying something similar. At one point she mentioned that she thought it was low-quality fish-based ingredients that cause a fishy smell. I'm wondering if it's due to the ingredients being more difficult for them to process, so more comes out in their poop & makes it smell? Whereas high quality fish that's actually the meat & such is what their body can actually digest, so there's no side-effects from it. I know I've seen a few people feed a high-quality fish-based food without having any smelly poop, so it may also just depend on the hedgehog & what their body can handle.


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## sheap

Well during my procrastination at work I stumbled across this chart and article! I thought it would help others who are asking what veggies are the healthiest. 

Powerhouse Fruits and Vegetables










The article is rather short, but does explain the chart.


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## CoffeeKat

That is interesting...and surprising. I can guarantee that Lu won't eat any of the top-listed items, but her crickets and mealworms will


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## ellisrks01

Umm?? What the heck is watercress?? never herd of it but I know I can work with some of the top 10. My hedgies love different lettuce so that's good to see on there.
Thanks for the chart sheap!!


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## gracefulchaos01

Watercress is a green, kinda like lettuce that has a bit of a bitey spicy bit to it. It's actually quite tasty.


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## sheap

Update time! 

Not too much has happened since my last post, though so it'll be a bit of a lame update :lol:

Nina ate some (2g) of the duck food last night without it being mushed in to the salmon! Progress! 

Dmitri continues to eat like a...hedgehog...and we are looking forward to our weigh in in a coupe of days! 

Up next on the menu: sprouts! I've really gotten in to sprouting seeds in the last week. It's easy and kinda fun to watch them grow! So far the quill kids have tried lentil sprouts (Nina is ok with them, Dmitri ignores them) but in the bullpen we have chia and quinoa! 

Also coming up within the next week or so, kefir! I just got my kefir grains and I have them soaking in milk right now! I can't wait


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## CoffeeKat

Sprouts sounds like fun...will have to try it. Back in our "hippie" days we made sprouts, our own yogurt, and beef jerky. Never tried making kefir though...I think I would just buy some.


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## sheap

Yeah my sisters keep calling me a hippie on Facebook! :lol: but oh well! The sprouts look great and are supposedly packed full of nutrients...they might go into the next batch of raw! 

I'm trying to keep all my food experiments on a budget (especially since the hospital bill from last month just arrived... ) so buying kefir is WAY too expensive! Plus there's something satisfying about making your own "gourmet" food! At least that's what the bf says...:lol:


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## gracefulchaos01

Well folks, tonight I'm taking a step. I just pureed 2 salmon fillets and added a bit of quinoa and a small jar of all natural pumpkin/carrot/corn baby food. I meant to add mealies but I forgot. Anyway I portioned it out into bits and have it in the freezer. Except for a trial test that is in the pen. The girls missed out, Titan seemed to enjoy his taste, Beauregard seems afraid of it and 2 more boys to go. Tomorrow I'll toss a frozen bit into their cold bowls along with their regular food and see what happens. 
I'm kinda excited. And curious.


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## gracefulchaos01

And everything worked out quite well. Only Gayle didn't eat much. I'm not concerned by this because she rarely eats cold food. Everyone else seemed to enjoy it very much.


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## sheap

Graceful, how did the experiment go? I hope it went well! Be careful with quinoa sometimes it's a big difficult to digest (at least for humans...like lentils) and can lead to gas and even diarrhea. That's actually what got me interested in sprouting! Sprouted foods are much easier to digest since they are more susceptible to digestive enzymes in the body. Quinoa sprouts are really easy and quite tasty!  A little birdie told me that my BF bought me alfalfa and kelp powder for my birthday, so I am going to wait until after Thursday to make my first batch with additives.  But you can bet I'm adding sprouts, too!!

Sorry for the lack of updates (in case anyone is following this thread with bated breath... :lol: ) last week driving home from the dog park (of all places) the BF and I found a bleeding, confused and abandoned French Bulldog puppy on the road. So with no other choices we went to the ER vet, and the rest is history. Coupie is gonna stay with us for the foreseeable future (unless he and Thunder, our malamute mix, don't get along at all...). So things have been quite hectic in the house lately! 

But the hedgies are taking in the new smells and sounds like champs! No one was thrown off their food, no one even had so much as green poop! 

Nina is eating more....and I mean WAY more than she ever has before! And she is also eating the duck ON ITS OWN! :O I'm so proud of her. She gets about 20g of food every night, plus mealworms, and she cleans her bowl every night!! She's gained quite a bit of weight too (healthily!). In fact tonight is weigh-in so we will see just how much she's gained. She just looks healthier, more rounded out, and a bit brighter (if that makes sense)....

Dmitri is eating less and less of this kibble. He's down to 6-8 kibbles a night. At weigh in we will see what he lost. Last week he was down to 660g...so fingers crossed!! He also looks healthier. He's got less of a "pooch" and seems a bit smaller when looked at from top down.

 Hopefully things will start to calm down around here and I can keep up with the raw demands! Otherwise I might check in again in a decade or so.....:lol:


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## gracefulchaos01

Hey Sheap! Everything worked out well. The couple of days after there was nothing out of the ordinary with their poops or anything. I'm only giving it as a supplemental addition so there is still kibble and I switch up which cold/wet food they get every night to help curb too much favoritism to any one thing. They will most likely get salmon bits again tonight. 
Raw beef went over like a lead balloon. But I'm going to whip up a cooked chicken mix here kinda soon and try that. They really enjoy the chicken and turkey wet food blend so I want to move in a direction they will appreciate. I got a bunch of thighs this weekend and will be using those. I'm just not sure how best to cook them, or if I even should.


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## sheap

If you do decide to cook the chicken, you have options. I've read somethings that say only lightly sear with a flavorless oil (like canola or rapeseed) and somethings that say to lightly poach in hot water or broth.

But I bet since your guys are used to eating raw, they will be fine with it uncooked. Make sure that you are taking off skin and any extra fat though, as it's very rich and can cause runny poops if fed too much!


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## Lilysmommy

Glad to hear things are going well for both of you guys!

Sheap, sounds like great news on your end! Cheering on Nina for eating her duck and cleaning her plate! Good girl!  And that's awesome that it's helping both of them get to their target weight as well. I'm glad that at least the poor puppy was found by good people.  I hope everyone gets along well so you can keep him...Frenchies are cute pups!


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## CoffeeKat

So glad that everyone's little prickies are doing well and that food continues to be fun, because it should be. LuLu too is doing well, but still not eating or gaining as much as I would like....HOWEVER, we have no drama so that's worth a fortune to me. She continues to eat her pinkie mouse every night, as well as crickets, mealworms, wax worms, banana, watermelon, pumpkin, and 6 or 7 Instinct duck bites. I supplement her diet with calcium by coating carrots and peppers with reptile calcium powder and using that to gut-load her worms and crickets. I bought her some grassfed beef from Whole Foods and she refused to taste it...same with tuna and salmon, turkey and now chicken. Going to Petco tomorrow to get some different bites to try...maybe chicken again. I really want her to eat more Instinct for the balance, but we seem to have a delicate understanding about her diet right now, so I'm not inclined to rock the boat.

Anyway, good to read happy news in the hedgie world....seems to be a lot of sadness and concern out there. I am fast finding out that having hedgehogs is not for sissies.


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## sheap

Hello again everyone! I know it's been awhile but I thought that I would come and update a bit. 

Nina: is finally holding a steady "normal" weight at 325-330g!!! I am so proud of my little girl! She's been enjoying the duck and the salmon/whitefish blends I give her every night. And of course her mealies and crickets.  She also barely ever needs a footzenbath (that's what we call foot baths in our house, lol) because her poop just doesn't stick to her anymore! It's awesome! Plus her dry skin is much better and her dry ears (which she would never let me touch) are slowly getting better as well.  I am going to make a few more foods once I finish off the duck blend (as it's taking up tons of space in the freezer) and maybe add some crushed flaxseed to help even more with their skin.

Dmitri: Is just going to stay a big boy. I have been giving him smaller portions of food and he is persistently at 660g. So I'm giving in, he gets to be 660g. He's otherwise really healthy, still runs, still plays, still explores the house (when I let him) and so I honestly see no reason to be concerned anymore.  His benefits are that his wheel actually seems to be used more (more exercise), and again, no daily footzenbaths! Plus his skin is also less dry and he loses less quills on a daily basis.

I still have the two pinkies I bought for them in the freezer...I just can't bring myself to try them! :roll: But....you know what! That's it! They are getting them tonight!! 

I have this feeling that they won't be eaten...but I guess we will find out if they were worth the $0.69 :lol:


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## Lilysmommy

Glad they're both doing well!  You might have mentioned, but I can't recall...are you planning on introducing more protein sources to Nina? It sounds like you are, with the mention of making more foods, but was just curious. Part of why I'm asking is something I forgot, but has come up in the FB raw group today - feeding too much fish can cause a thiamine deficiency. I know for dogs it's recommended to only feed 1-2 times a week to avoid that issue. I already knew this from my wildlife rehab handbook, but I don't think I even remembered it until it came up in the group, and I don't think I've mentioned it previously...if I have or if you already knew, sorry to repeat! Just wanted to mention it before I forgot again, heh.


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## CoffeeKat

Sarah, how did the pinkie feeding go, or have you done it yet? I still have not watched LuLu eat one, but she polishes off three every night and never leaves a trace behind.

*sigh* yes, you read that right, she eats three pinkies every night (or two, depending on size, about 7 grams) and this has become a staple in her diet, rather than a treat. This was not my idea to begin with, and not the way I envisioned our own raw feeding adventure to go. I was comfortable with her diet of Instinct frozen raw bites and raw ground chicken (supplemented with worms and crickets, fruits and veggies). But now I find that she has nearly abandoned any other protein source in favor of pinkie mice. If I feed fewer pinkies, she simply eats less. I have discovered that you can't argue with or bully a hedgehog,and "tough love" doesn't work.

She will, occasionally, eat a few duck or rabbit bites. I offer her six every might, as well as a freeze dried raw kibble just in case. I have tried every commercial raw food I can find. I have tried "scenting" it in ziploc bags with the pinkies, soaking it in chicken broth, even putting a dab of honey on each piece. All she wants is pinkies, crickets, wax worms and mealworms (tried Phoenix worms and dubia roaches, neither of which she will touch). She also eats banana, watermelon and pumpkin, sometimes green peppers and cucumber.

on the plus side, her activity level in her playpen is the same as always, although she has totally stopped running her wheel. Her weight is staying steady at 285 grams (she was only 108 grams at 6 weeks when we brought her home, 250 grams when we switched to raw 4 months ago, rapidly gained 30 grams and leveled out since then. She's 9 months old now) I would like to see her hit 300 grams, but I don't think she will gain much more. She looks and acts healthy.

When we began our raw adventure, I was hoping to accomplish two things: to potentially extend her life through a more natural diet, and to bring some pleasure into her life through her food because she had never eaten very much of her kibble, and never seemed interested. She was running 10 miles a night on her wheel and seemed to be full of nervous energy. With the small amount of kibble she was eating and the amount of running, it was a struggle to put any weight on her at all.

Now she gets excited for dinner time and seems calmer overall. She seems content to spend five or six hours with us every evening while we read, watch tv, or work/play on the computer. She seems to enjoy or at least appreciate our companionship, because she knows that squirrelly and "climby" behavior will get her put back in her condo, so she has a choice of how to spend her evenings. So overall, I am pleased with that aspect of switching to a more natural diet (actually, she made the switch, not me. I simply offered it as a suggestion and she never touched kibble again).

As for my other goal, extending her life through a more natural diet: I realize that I may very well have shortened her life by offering her this path. Hedgehogs do fine on a good-quality cat food, and if I had left well-enough alone she might live longer. Or not. Who knows? But I do know that changing over to raw food has increased the quality of her life, and if this proves to shorten her life instead of lengthen it, I'm okay with that. It has taken me several weeks to get to that point of acceptance, and a large part of that has come about in following the situation with David (Good and Plenty) and Sophie, in another thread. I see the value in quality of life vs quantity. Honestly, if I could go back and do things differently, I'm not sure if I would. Where would Lu be now if she had stayed on kibble? Would she still be a nervous ball of energy? Would she be healthier? Would she be happier? Would she still be biting my husband every chance she gets? (That stopped mysteriously when she stopped eating kibble but I'm not trying to draw conclusions) I don't know, but it doesn't matter because we can't go back. Speculation is not productive.

So that's the latest turn on our adventure.


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## sheap

CoffeeKat, I am honestly very glad to hear that Lu is eating  Even if it's "junk food," at least she is eating and is enjoying life more. I think that's what matters.

(And as for the longevity thing...if she were wild your girl would be considered "old" now, wild African hedgehogs have a life span of roughly 18 months scrounging in the landfills. So I think LuLu is doing splendidly!)

I fed the pinkies, and they both ate the whole thing! Tail and noses and whiskers and all. Not a trace left behind! But I didn't watch...Something about it gave me the willies...:lol: So for a cheap treat, I think it's worth it to get them maybe once or twice a week. I'll have to see how many I can bring myself to put in the freezer...

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with giving her the food she eats every night. They way I got Nina to eat her duck (see below) was to place a few pieces under the fish to let the oil and juices run into it. She started gobbling it up and is enjoying it now. Maybe you could try that? I don't know how it would work under the pinkies....maybe make a small incision into the frozen belly and as it thaws the innards will run out? 

Kelsey, I did introduce more proteins to Nina. She is eating as much duck as fish now, and next we are going to do chicken and beef. I have been thinking about how to get most of the goodness of the bones into their food (We started feeding the dogs raw and they seem to really LOVE the marrow. I mean, who wouldn't!!) and I think I am going to crush the bones from a few of the chicken pieces and pull out a bunch of the marrow and see how they like that as a component in the food!  I'm really excited about this semi-butchering I do every night now. :lol:

Dmitri turned into a picky hog lately. He won't eat the fish anymore...I think it might be because it's freezer burned (Nina doesn't mind it!) so he just gets to eat duck and crickets for the time being.

We are going back to the market this weekend to get more food for the dogs, and I am going to pick up a few pieces of chicken/goat/rabbit for the hedgies too!


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## Lilysmommy

Kat, not sure if I've mentioned this before or not...and not sure if it'd work on Miss Picky! But I wonder if Lulu would deem a complete ground mouse mix to be similar enough to pinkies as to be worthy of eating? Hare Today has ground mouse (fur included) & I wonder if she would eat that. If she would, it might be a bit easier to mix & sneak other grinds or the Nature's Variety raw bites in with it since everything is all ground & easier to smush together. I definitely understand if you don't want to bother ordering it though, considering how the insect order went!

Glad your two are doing well, Sheap! And yay for raw-fed doggies too!  Glad they liked the pinkies and hope the other new proteins go over just as well. You'll have to let us know what they think.  Also another thought for the bone thing - you could make bone broth & pour a little on their food, maybe? People have discussed how to make it before on the FB raw group, and I believe Dr. Mercola has a video on how to do so on her site.


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## lilsurfergrlsp

My grandma always sucks the marrow out of bones, but she also scoops it out to use in stews and sauces. I believe she simply roasts them in the oven until the marrow "bubbles," because its easier to scoop it out that way. For your hedgie, though, I would only give the marrow in small amounts - just because from what I understand, it's pretty fatty (good fats though), and high in protein. But it's super nutritient dense too 

Here's an article I found about using marrow in raw feeding:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/bone-marrow-recipe/#axzz3CaE3od4E


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## sheap

Hi all! Time for a short update (I hope no one minds my updates...)

Lately Dmitri has been getting picky. He won't eat the salmon/whitefish patties anymore. :/ He picks at them, but they are left mostly the same amount in his bowl at night.

If you recall, I made a chicken mix. I added my kelp and alfalfa and some of the dried eggshells! I was very proud of this mix. Nina LOVES it!

Dmitri hates it.

But last night I made a pork mix with kidney (goat) and a little bit of chicken. and some chicken bones (because, surprisingly my little Cuisinart Mini food processor can grind up chicken bones!!), added banana kale and bell pepper slurry (we made meals for all the 4 leggers last night). But no eggshell and no kelp or alfalfa. This morning I woke up to an empty bowl. Dmitri snarffed it up!

My current hypothesis is I may have put him off the meat with the additives. 

So my new plan is to sprinkle just a tad of the additives onto the top of the patties in his bowl. That way he will get some, but can eat around it if he wants.

It's very upsetting to put 26g of food in his bowl and to wake up to 20g of shriveled food in the morning.  CoffeeKat I now truly understand your worries.

The good news is, Dmitri still likes the duck (Primal Pronto) but I will be running out of that soon. And he still likes Pinkies. PLUS I gave him a treat of some weird orange thing I found on a chicken kidney (butchering for the dogs!) and he LOVED it. So I know he is still getting excited for food. Just not the healthy kind...:roll:

In other news I am picking up a 3-legged rescue hedgie from the Wildlife Center tomorrow morning! I am visiting Mrs. Bonnie on Saturday and she has made me her official Proxy on the Atlantic side of the state! Woo!! I feel so special  :lol:

Now I'm just worried about what to feed Peg Leg Pete the Pirate (Bonnie chose the name :roll: ) because I have no kibble in my house! I do have a little bit of BabyCat (from when I weaned Nina from her pregnancy diet to raw) so I guess he'll have to make do with that....


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## Lilysmommy

I love your updates! I love everyone's updates! :lol: I really do get quite excited whenever I see this thread come up in the Active Topics list. You underestimate what an animal nutrition nerd I am.  I'm always happy to read about animal diets.

Silly Dmitri...tell him he's not supposed to start being picky now that you got Nina eating! I hope it was just the additives and he continues to eat well now. And I can't wait to hear more about Pete! Hopefully he settles in well with you. Do you know what the Wildlife Center has been feeding him? Would they maybe have some kibble that they could give you a baggy-full of?


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## MomLady

I, too, enjoy the updates. I may not feed raw food, but hedgie nutrition is something that interests me. Besides I think it was this thread that led me to The Honest Kitchen for the dehydrated food.

Also, in case anyone missed my thread on THK, they do sell base mixes that you can add your own protein to, either raw or cooked meat, eggs or whatever. It may be an alternative or just to change things up. I have added a bit of the Prowl, their chicken for cats to my Nara's diet. I like that I can mix up a small amount as needed. They do have samples, so you can see if your picky eaters will deign to eat it.

I think it's our responsibility to our hedgies to research and investigate their nutritional needs.

Thanks to all who report to us on what is working for them.
ML


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## CoffeeKat

I too get excited when this thread pops up with new information and/or updates (but, in all honesty, it doesn't take much to excite me :lol I figure if there is hope for Nina there is hope for LuLu, so I was really pleased to read about Nina's breakthrough. Dmitri's sudden pickiness is likely (we hope) transient.

Kelsey, I researched the Hare Today ground mouse and could not stop (literally) gagging at the thought, even though I have no problem feeding pinkies. Even now, just talking about it turns my stomach for some reason. I picture it as a pate` consistency, with hair. Now I'm laughing AND gagging. Excuse me, BRB.

Okay, back now. Anyway, we have had a small breakthrough in getting Lu to eat her Instinct raw bites. Apparently she likes them soaked in organic apple juice. Don't judge. She has a sweet tooth, so whatever it takes to get her to eat her duck and rabbit bites.....I know it isn't an ideal diet, but it is what it is. Another thing she has developed a taste for is darkling beetles, the new tender little brown babies that we accidentally allowed to hatch from the mealworm herd. She eats them faster than we can hatch them so I suppose I will be "shopping" for more online until I can get my farm up and running. Right now her variety is slim when it comes to worms and such--crickets, wax worms and mealworms. She has rejected Phoenix worms and dubia roaches. She still eats her two pinkie mice every night, though, and would probably eat more if I let her. She also eats banana, watermelon and pumpkin every night, sometimes mushroom, sometimes green pepper, sometimes broccoli. 

We have tried THK, Stella and Chewies, Primal, the Dick Van Patten tube stuff, and every decent-quality wet cat food, as well as baby foods, raw fish, ground chicken, turkey, beef, bison, duck and rabbit. No, no, and HECK no. So we are done experimenting. She's like a crabby old lady set in her ways, and that's okay


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## sheap

Dmitri ate his pork last night with the "tad amount" of additives. So hopefully he will continue eating. He's less crabby when he eats his whole dinner! :lol:

Kelsey, they were feeding Pete "Pretty Pets." I didn't even want to have feeding that to him for one night on my conscience. Luckily I remembered I have a bad of Core Wellness Duck that I use as training treats for the dogs! So he'll get some of that, some BabyCat and a bunch of buggies. Those I have plenty of! 

MomLady, I might have to check out the samples you mentioned. I was thinking that I might buy a few small bags of commercial raw and feed that to the hedgies to make sure they are getting a good amount of bone/calcium. Thanks for the tip!!

CoffeeKat, I love the fact that she likes apple juice! Especially if you use the "no sugar added" kind.  Natural sugars (in fruits, veggies, milk, etc.) are really healthy for you and can be pretty much enjoyed as much as you want, from what I understand (within reason, of course)!


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## gracefulchaos01

Omg, they made me buy a whole bag of pretty pet when I brought Sebastian home. They swore all the hedgies ate it. The first night she was home I put a bowl of the pp and a bowl of BB kitten in the pen. She never touched the pp again. The cats wouldn't touch it. The wild cats wouldn't touch it. The squirrel wouldn't touch it. No hope for that food. I feel so bad for those pet store hedgies... 
By the way I was also excited to see the update on this thread. I've just been distracted with other home issues right now.


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## Lilysmommy

:lol: Sorry for the trauma over ground mouse, Kat! I think I'm immune to most grossness over raw meat or whole prey after working at Wildside for so long. My poor vegan friend is having such a hard time prepping whole prey for her ferret and I've been trying to be understanding and supportive & not mention how I can cut 5 mice up in under a minute with no flinching. :lol: Glad to have some encouraging news on Ms. Picky! I agree with Sheap that it seems like a small price to pay to have her eat the balanced bites, especially with no sugar added apple juice.

Gross, I don't blame you at all, Sheap. Just about anything is better than feeding that garbage! He's going to be so much better off hanging out with you.  You should post some pictures of him!!


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## sheap

He's getting a bath tonight because he is really dirty (and also has reeeeeallly long nails, but he's too grumpy-kins to try and tackle that tonight) and I will take pictures then!


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## CoffeeKat

Okay, short update on LuLu's raw diet adventure: she seems to be thriving, I am happy to report. We switched to raw in June, and she weighed 250 grams when we began. She's up to 325 grams now, and seems calm and content (I would not presume to call her "happy" because who knows with hedgehogs?)
Before switching to raw, she was running about 10 miles a night on her wheel, and not really eating much. Immediately she cut her wheel time in half, then slowly decreased to nothing. Now she only seems to run her wheel when she has had an upset in her normal routine...like a bath, or strange people handling her. I wouldn't have even noticed this if I didn't keep a brief daily log of food eaten, poop, activity level and any changes to her world.

I frequently offer new things for her to eat, but she pretty much sticks to the same diet and it's been consistent for the past two months or so: 4 meal worms and a cricket mid-day when we bring her out for playpen time (that's her breakfast), 4 wax worms and a cricket in the early evening when we bring her out for bonding time (lunch), then supper when we put her back to bed about midnight. This consists of two frozen/thawed pinkie mice, about 3 grams each, 8 rabbit or duck Instinct raw frozen/thawed bites that were soaked in unsweetened apple juice, and a marble-sized portion each of banana, watermelon and cantaloupe. I dip some of her worms in olive oil, and sprinkle her food dish with Missing Link small animal supplement and ReptiCal calcium supplement (just a little). Her skin is good, her poop is good, her activity level in the playpen is good, and overall I am pleased. Life without drama is wonderful 

How is everyone else doing? Let's liven this thread up again with some updates!


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## DesireeM81

That sounds wonderful! I was wondering how you were balancing it all and it looks great! I'm glad she has gained weight for you. I know your struggle ;-).


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## ellisrks01

Yay! Go lulu! I just love this thread, it's about time someone bumped it up.

I started Oreo on raws/home-cooked meals regularly at 6 1/2 weeks old so it's been just over two months for him. It's been in Nikki's diet for maybe 5 months or so.

Both eat plenty of kibble still, that's available 24/7 and I'll never do a complete switch from kibble(at least for Nikki)I just try to have a more rounded nutritious diet.
Nikki is eating right at 2 tablespoons of kibble still and it seems Oreo stays at 1 to 1 1/2 tablespoons. Kibble intake was up and down for awhile but both are staying steady now.

*Now my menu is far from perfect but like I said I just try to get a more rounded diet into my hogs on top of kibble. *

The raw meats I feed right now are chicken, beef and instinct duck bits. I just cycle through the meat and feed each one every 3rd day. They do get cooked venison probably every week and a half or two weeks but that's just random.

I also feed egg 3 times a week.
Baby food Sweet potatoes every 2-3 days
Baby food mixed veggies 2 times a week
banana, apple or other fruit 1-2 times a week
I usually have to hide the mixed veggie and fruit in the egg or meats.

Now I easily get carried away with my bug feedings but this is what it looks like:
5-10 medium mealworms every day or two ( it's a little much but it happens)
2-3 roaches every 2-3 days
5-6 crickets every other day 
I do feed a couple other bugs but not on the regular basis.

This isn't exactly how I feed but pretty close to it. I do feed other treats/ wet cat food randomly.
Also when Desiree posted the pictures of pinky feeding, i finally feed one to Oreo (Nikki doesn't get any and I was actually saving it for Bruce but never got the chance.) Of course he ate it when I wasn't looking.

By the way Nikki weights 374 grams and Oreo is 356  hopefully I'm not forgetting anything on the menu. But I just wanted to share/ update too

Edit: now that I think of it, dry skin hasn't been a issue in a while. Poop alway looks good too. No one has had any stomach issues from any foods yet.


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## CoffeeKat

Time for another LuLu update, but there isn't much to add from the last one. She still seems to be thriving, slowly gaining weight (up to 350 grams now) and is healthy and calm. She has settled into a routine of eating pinkie mice, Instinct raw duck or rabbit bites, fruit and assorted tiny livestock that I have begun to raise for her (mealworms, their pupae and the darkling beetles that complete their lifecycle). I'm currently waiting for eggs to hatch and become the second generation of meal worms. I find it all infinitely fascinating, and LuLu enjoys the variety. I did try super worm farming once, but I found it oddly sad and disquieting, and the pupae were HUGE...LuLu was scared of it, or maybe disgusted, but would not go near it.

Why was superworm farming sad? Well, unlike mealworms, superworms will not change into pupae unless they are "stressed", meaning isolated from other worms and left without food or bedding. I just felt so sad for their miserable existence only to end up as lunch for something. At least mealworms can happily go about their business eating and coexisting, with at least a chance that they could be allowed to complete their lifecycle by breeding and laying eggs. The unlucky ones who are plucked out for LuLu's lunch at least had a decent life before it ended. *sigh* The older I get, the stranger I become :lol:

LuLu is still the star of our show, and she is still so perfect she poops diamonds  She recently turned 1 year old, which we celebrated with feeding her an extra pinkie. So glad we switched to a natural diet.

How is everyone else doing?


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## Lilysmommy

Glad to hear a good update!  That's great Lulu has settled into her meal routine and isn't giving you lots of issues over what she wants to eat anymore. I'm getting so antsy to own a hedgie again that I started making a list of things to try out with future hedgie. :lol: If my friends weren't used to me, they'd think I've gone off a cliff. My best friend (who I plan on living with) is very phobic of insects & worms, etc. so when I showed them the list, they were NOT pleased about the first section. :lol: I've promised many times that all bugs will be kept far away from them! If I'm away and they're hedgiesitting, they conceded that they'd be willing to use tongs to feed canned insects, at least. I'll take it! Here's my list so far:

- mealworms
- superworms
- phoenix worms
- silkworms
- hornworms
- butterworms
- crickets
- roaches
- waxworms
- grasshoppers (canned)
- caterpillars (canned)

- snails (canned)
- frog legs (Butcher Boy)
- eggs
- pinky mice (HT/petstore)
- pinky rabbits (HT)
- 1 day old quail chicks (HT)
- chicken chicks (HT)

- MPC/HT grinds
- commercial raw (Stella & Chewy, NV)
- Honest Kitchen

- veggies
- fruit

Who knows if future hedgie will like any of it, but at least I have lots of things to try, right?


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## Soyala_Amaya

Hello, I am possibly considering going to a (kind of) raw food diet for my hedgie. I will probably still lightly boil the meats just because he's already had sensitive tummy issues and a bout of gastro giardia, and I don't want any other bugs (except the ones I'm feeding, lol) in there. I have been talking to someone who takes their hedgie to CSU Veterinary Teaching Hospital as her main vet, and Dr. Matthew Johnston has been doing some more research on APH diet. This is hearsay from her, I will be talking to my own vet about it, but she says that hedgies need a lot more fiber than they get from cat food. 15% of their intake! This research is based on an insectivore diet, and studying the flora of APH gi tracts.

So with that in mind, and my ongoing issues with getting my boy to poo like a normal hedgie, I have looking into creating his own food. The numbers I have gotten from several places for raw barf are-2-3% of their ideal body weight. He weighs 600 grams, so 12 grams of food? That doesn't seem like a lot. I would probably stick to my normal 2 tablespoons.

Percentages in the food-
80% muscle
10% edible bone
5% liver
5% other organ

Now, I know hedgies need veggies and not as much meat, so I've recalculated as-

27% muscle/protein
27% bugs
6% edible bone
3% liver
3% other organ
15% fiber
19% other fruit and veggie

Now, some of my fiber will come from insects, some from fruits and veggies. These are the ingredients I have to create a meal plan.

Brown Rice
Peas
Spinach
Unsweetened organic applesauce
Sweet potatoe
Ground Turkey
Hard Boiled Eggs
Chicken gizzards
Chicken Liver
Chicken Giblets
Phoenix Worms (also known as calcium worms)
Dubia Roaches
Super Worms
Bonemeal powder

I can make a decent sized batch and freeze into single size servings, but I could really use some help measuring out how much of what to make a meal that ends with percentages

Protein-28-35%
Fat-10-15%
Fiber 15-17%

Here is a picture of the spreadsheet with my proposed meal plan, but I couldn't find any information with the insects I want to use as grams, only percentages. So I'm having some issues figuring out if my math figures out. If I do one cup of each insect, raw, into the rest of the mix, will that get me to my proposed percentages? I THINK so, but I'm bad at conversions. Also, I believe it's 1 tablespoon of bone meal per pound of mix, correct?










Thank you in advance for any help!


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## Lilysmommy

Yup, the higher fiber need is correct! Lots of insects in the diet usually helps with that, but veggies are good too. The 2-3% of the weight is typically for dogs, and from what I've read, I think smaller animals tend to need a higher percentage. I believe cats are usually something like 3-6%, and I think ferrets are similar? So I would go a bit higher with hedgehogs as well, perhaps 3-5%. You could always start at around 4% and adjust as needed based on weight gain & attitude.

Ahhh, I want to comment more! I really have to run though, so I'll come back and read over the rest of your post and give a much better comment once I get home in several hours!


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## DesireeM81

I am following with intense curiosity!! If you can make this work then I will definitely try it as well. I'm not sure about the percentages. 

Kelsey, ferrets don't really go by body weight since they are self regulators like our spikey friends, the rule is 1-3 ozs for a female and 2-4 ozs for a male. If a female weighs 1-3 pounds or 16-48 ounces which is about standard than the percentage on average is 7%. Same with males.

I'm also curious of what a pinky or fuzzy mouse fills in on these requirements. Whole prey is a whole 80-10-10 meal in one package which is nice.

Oh I'm very excited. I will be following very closely. The more of my pets on a more natural diet, the better I feel.

Oh and bonemeal powder! No never use 1 tablespoon per pound. It is normally 1/2 to 3/4 TEASPOON per 10 ozs. So maybe 1 teaspoon per pound is correct. I would aim a little lower too. This is based on ferrets which need more bone, than cats and dogs (because they eat more small whole prey rather than take down larger animals such as deer)


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## Soyala_Amaya

I took my info and spreadsheets to my vet today, and he said at a glance the numbers read pretty good. He liked my fiber choices (brown rice is an easily digestible fiber that's good for sensitive tummies) and that he was going to call CSU and see about their research for me.
Unfortunately, my boy still has the giardia and now is diagnosed with clostridium on top of it, so the addition of the fiber is paramount. We sent out for a full fecal culture, but if it's c. diff, then the anti biotics will only make it worse. The addition of this home made food could really help his gi tract as we battle two things at once!
I'll keep everyone updated as I learned more.


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## Lilysmommy

Thank you for clarifying that, Desiree! I know I've talked to my ferret-owning friend about it before, but couldn't remember what she'd said.

I think your plan looks pretty good! I'm having a bit of trouble with the math myself because I'm not sure how you calculate percentages with using cups of each ingredient versus the nutrients being in grams. But just going on the categories each item fits into, this is what I got:

Meat/egg: 21%
Insects: 29%
Liver: 7%
Other Organ: 7%
Fruit & Veg: 29%
Fiber: Not sure how to calculate since it's coming from both the veggies & insects...

Also, just to make sure you know, gizzards are muscle meat (looks like you were probably counting them as that, just wanted to mention it), and I don't know where you'd be buying giblets, but they can include things like heart & gizzard, which are both muscle meat. So just keep that in mind.

A couple other notes/questions:

- Are you planning to get the insects live, then freeze them to kill them? I'll be curious to know how well that works, if so! I've only tried freezing crickets before and it worked well, but they thawed quickly & got rather gross if left too long. I never did try freezing mealworms because of how quickly they go black if they die in the fridge, but I guess freezing would prevent the decomposition that causes that.

- Are you planning on blending this all up in a food processor? Or just mixing it by hand? Just curious!

- Desiree is right, the bonemeal powder is 1 teaspoon to 1 pound of just muscle meat. I think that would still probably work okay for your mix because almost all of the components are higher in phosphorus than calcium, including the veggies. I'm pretty sure the 1 teaspoon to 1 pound note I have written down was obtained from the dog raw feeding group, so it should transfer over to here, I think.

- About your veggie choices...I'm a bit concerned because all three of them are high in Vitamin A, especially sweet potato. That's concerning for two reasons - Vitamin A is fat-soluble and can be overdosed. It also competes with Vitamin E for absorption, according to the nutrition section in my wildlife rehab manual, and none of the fruits, veggies, or the hardboiled egg are high at all in Vitamin E. Vit E is also present in kidney & liver, at least, not sure what other things from your menu, so those might offset that, but liver is also high in Vitamin A. It might not be a bad idea to do two mixes - one with the ingredients you have here, and a second one with different veggies (with lower Vit A amounts). Then you can alternate them every day or something.

I think those are the only vitamin concerns I noticed. None of the veggies have Vitamin D (which is important for bone growth, etc.), but bonemeal has that, so I think that'd be okay.

One that frustrates me endlessly is that I'm not sure there have been any nutritional analyses done on feeder insects past the bare basics. I'd really be interested to know what other vitamins & minerals they provide, but I haven't seen any kind of study on it. One of my professors at school used to teach a wildlife nutrition class and said he'd never heard of a study either.

Desiree, about pinky mice, I did a search & found one thread from this forum where someone mentioned that values for mice, especially pinkies & other juvenile mice, are typically inaccurate & it's difficult to know values for sure since it partially depends on age (which is hard to know unless you raised & euthanized them), and nutrition. I did find one site and my wildlife rehab manual also has some figures listed in the back, but I'm just not sure how trustworthy they are. Both sources lack a phosphorus percentage, so it'd be impossible to calculate a Ca: P ratio anyway. But given that they're not fully developed, barring a pinky/fuzzy with a full belly of milk, I would guess that they're not actually balanced as whole prey, in the 80-10-10 percentages...but that's just a guess. :? I do know that adult mice are considered a perfect prey item because they do have a balanced Ca: P ratio. But I'm not sure that helps us any because adult mice are a bit big for hedgies!

So yeah. Not sure how useful any of this rambling was, but I hope at least the vitamin mentions was useful!  I'd really be interested to hear how this goes and how your hedgie takes to it, especially if you just mix everything more or less whole rather than blending it up!


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## Soyala_Amaya

Hmm, can you think of another veggie besides, say, the sweet potatoe that will cover my fiber and moisture needs? I thought the vitamin A was high too, but I really need something that will help with his tummy and get more moisture into him. With all his tummy issues, on his own he will actually drink about 1-2 ml of water a night and he weighs about 590 grams! So not enough water. 

To answer some of your questions, I live down the street from a full service butcher who will sell me any cut of meat I want as long as I call ahead. Literally, about 5 minutes from my house. So extra giblets from people who don't want them is no issue.

Yes and yes, ordering live, gut loading, freezing for a quick death, then food processor everything with either pedialtye or oracal for extra fluids. I have a NUK baby food maker just for him already, it's just going to get more use. 

I will definitely make sure the bonemeal is only a teaspoon, lol! Woops, wrote that one down wrong somewhere. 

As for the Vitamin E, spinach has a TON of it, it's one of the reasons I picked spinach! So many good vitamins there  Also, eggs have vitamin D, 136 grams per cup chopped! Yay for eggs!

So I really just need help switching out the sweet potato and I should be looking pretty good on this. We just started our third round of antibiotics plus a dewormer this morning to fight the giardia and clostridium. I am so worried about his insides being messed up by the messed, I want to get this good stuff in him ASAP


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## Soyala_Amaya

Ok, so I switched out the super high in vitamin a for a lower level acorn squash, but it was also lower in fiber, so I switched it to two cups of squash. Keeps me abooooout the same levels but with a LOT less vitamin A.


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## Lilysmommy

What site are you using for nutrition data? I was using nutritiondata.self.com last night, but just checked again with nutrition.gov. They do have higher values for Vitamin E in spinach & D in eggs, which is good, though not the same amount you listed (which is why I'm curious where you're looking! Would like to have another resource to check).

Acorn squash does look like it should work better. Hopefully that should balance out better and not cause any issues! Sounds like you have a good plan, so hopefully he'll like it.  You'll have to let us know how it goes!

Also, are you guys giving him probiotics to help with the rounds of antibiotics?


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## Soyala_Amaya

Honestly? Google. I type "nutritional content of..." and a little thing comes up on the side of the page. Then there's a little drop down menu to change the serving size. It worked pretty well and simple.

Yes, we do Benebac at 1/4 tsp every other night, it gets sprinkled on his kibble and he seems to like it just fine.

I have my bugs in the freezer as we speak and am hitting the grocery for the last of my veggies tonight, I'll be simmering and mixing tonight when I get home! I am so scared that the antibiotics are going to upset his clostridium even worse, but the giardia has to be gotten rid of before his gi tract can settle too! I've heard such horror stories of c.diff in people and hedgehogs!

We're changing his fleece every night, scrubbing his cage with a super strong bleach solution, took out every toy but throw away tp tubes, he's getting a nightly shower in the sink to wash any spores off, I would fall apart if he died with this thing. But he's currently still eating like a champ, and if I can keep water in him at a good rate, with the raised fiber and antibiotics, I hope he'll be well by the middle of April!


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## Lilysmommy

Good luck! Let us know how he's doing, both health-wise and with the new food.  I really hope it helps him!


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## DesireeM81

So I'm looking at this menu and I want to make some changes but I am not sure how to go about it. 

For the most part, Rose, Winter and Penny can eat the same thing. I would like to avoid brown rice though as they are on grain free now and I don't think it's necessary to replicate a natural diet. (Although I understand the want for Soyala, to need it there.) Is there a better alternative or a way to avoid the grains, that are not potatoes? 

I also want to avoid peas if I can. There have been some reports of them causing kidney stones in ferrets. Would broccoli be a good alternative? 

For River, my still underweight girl despite a high fat diet, I need fattier meats and waxworms. Is this a good way to go about this?

I will be keeping kibble in the cage for them until I am sure they are healthy and happy on this diet. I really like this idea and want to make it work for my little guys. Any advice is welcome.


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## Lilysmommy

I've heard of broccoli causing gas in dogs, but I'm not sure how problematic it really is. I think it'd be worth trying, at least, and just take note if you see any side effects from it. If you're really concerned, you could see if the vet thinks there would be any serious issues from it, but I can't imagine it'd be too bad!

To avoid grains, you could go with other root vegetables. Sweet potatoes aren't bad, I just wouldn't want to make them a large portion in a daily meal due to the high Vitamin A. But there are also rutabagas and turnips, which are both about half the dietary fiber, but still pretty decent. I like the acorn squash idea as well, as it looks pretty nutritious to my amateur eyes. :lol: It's also even higher in dietary fiber than sweet potato, according to nutritiondata.self.com. You could do multiple mixes so that you can switch each day, to avoid having the same veggies each day, or you could do small amounts of each in one mix that would balance things out.

For River, instead of using poultry, go with red meats like pork, beef, etc. Mutton is pretty high fat as well, if you can get it. I would still include some other insects in her mix, such as roaches for the fiber content of the exoskeletons. But adding in waxworms will hopefully help with the fat content as well. Superworms are apparently higher in fat as well, so would be a good one. I found this while searching and while I haven't looked to find common names for the listed species, it might be helpful? I'm not sure if any of them would be accessible to you - http://www.organicvaluerecovery.com/studies/studies_nutrient_content_of_insects.htm


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## lilsurfergrlsp

Oh gawsh, the brocolli gas! I fed my dogs steamed brocolli once, and I think I overdid it - the gas was pretty bad. Feeding too much of it can cause problems, though - a google search on that is worth looking into. I still feed it on occasion though.

Also, green beans could also help with fiber, and pure pumpkin (make sure it's pure pumpkin, and not pumpkin pie filling). I sometimes feed kale, spinach, and apples, to help with fiber. Lentils are high in fiber as well, but I think they're considered a grain? Not sure on that.


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## Soyala_Amaya

Cauliflower would also work, it was a secondary vegetable I looked at. 
Total Fat 1.6 g	2%
Saturated fat 0.4 g	2%
Polyunsaturated fat 0.1 g	
Monounsaturated fat 0.1 g	
Trans fat 0 g	
Cholesterol 0 mg	0%
Sodium 176 mg	7%
Potassium 1,758 mg	50%
Total Carbohydrate 29 g	9%
Dietary fiber 12 g	48%
Sugar 11 g	
Protein 11 g	22%
Vitamin A	0%	Vitamin C	472%
Calcium	12%	Iron	13%
Vitamin D	0%	Vitamin B-6	55%
Vitamin B-12	0%	Magnesium	22%


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## Draenog

Saw something about fibre, hedgehogs should get most of their fibre out of insects. This means insects with hard exoskeletons. If your diet needs more fibre, try to increase these types of insects first before adding more veggies.


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## Soyala_Amaya

Veggies, however, let you add more fiber and vitamins without adding fat, and with the eggs, liver, and three insects I already included, the fat was already getting up there. Eggs and superworms are pretty fatty.

Update! He LOVED it! Woohoo! Homemade hedgie food is a fairly roaring success! It took till almost 5 in the morning before he really ATE it, but from midnight to 4 he sniffed it, licked it, nibbled it, annointed with it multiple times, and then finally ate over half of it! Hey Mikey, he likes it!

He still ate about a tablespoon of kibble, but then about 1/3 of a cup of HHF. Very excited!

Beginning of the Night









Halfway through Night Annointing









End of the Night Dirtiness and Mostly Empty Bowl


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## Soyala_Amaya

P.S. You can see how tiny and hard his little poops are, hence the freaking out over his diet and moisture intake.  Hopefully after a few nights of this, we'll have nice logs of a good consistency, instead of hard little rabbit rock poops.


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## DesireeM81

Awesome!! I'm so glad he liked it!!

Thanks for all the advice guys. I will be adding a good amount of bugs so I will see how much I can get the fiber up without adding rice which is my goal. I have access to crickets and hornworms which are low in fat. I also am going to change the fruit from applesauce to blueberries, blackberries, raspberries and possibly cranberries, a mixture of these.

I like the idea of adding red meat into River's diet. I am going to buy ground rabbit and I'll find some high fat ground red meat. I want to do a variety, they get a lot on their diet now so I want that to continue. I also still want to do pinkie or fuzzy mice.


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## Soyala_Amaya

Post your spreadsheet when you're done setting your numbers! I can get free range rabbit from my butcher too, it might be good to change up his proteins after I get his tummy fixed up!

Also, if you can't find the meat you want already ground, this little guy too care of all of my meats, eggs, and veggies like a champ. Good price too since it's a small one for only doing about 1 pound of meat a time. 
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NEU6FXY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## DesireeM81

Will do!

Aw, thanks. But I raw feed my ferrets and have most everything on hand. I have a meat grinder if I need it but I have a wonderful connection where I can buy ground meat if I don't want the hassle. :lol:


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## Soyala_Amaya

Homemade Hedgie Food night 2! He didn't even TOUCH the kibble, just ate almost half of the HHF. Obviously he likes it, but I had his benebac on the kibble, oops. 

Poo update-poo'd three times in the bath before bed, all normal brown color, one with a little green. Poo'd again about 6 in the morning, two really nice logs, one with a touch of green again, but then he had some really runny poo right behind the logs.  It could just be the diet change, or the fact that I tortured him right before bed (bath, nail clipping, medicine, humilac, oh my), or the giardia, but it doesn't make me happy.

On the other hand, I have him out right now for his morning meds and he PEE"D on me! I know that seems crazy to be excited over, but he hasn't pee'd more than once or twice a night for WEEKS! Yay hydration!


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## Draenog

Soyala_Amaya said:


> Veggies, however, let you add more fiber and vitamins without adding fat, and with the eggs, liver, and three insects I already included, the fat was already getting up there. Eggs and superworms are pretty fatty.


Hedgehogs can't digest veggies very well because they lack the cecum, a part of the intestines that is prominent in herbivores (and a little smaller in carnivores). It digests plant matter. Hedgehogs completely miss this part and even though they are known to eat vegetables, fruits (mostly berries) and roots in the wild it's thought they do this as a last resort when there's not much other food around. It might be wise to be careful with feeding (a lot of) veggies especially if they are hard to digest (which usually means vegetables high in fibre).

If you're concerned about fat, get insects that aren't as high in fat as superworms. There are various better options including dubia roaches and phoenix worms. These are the best feeders imo (from what's available). Insects with a good, hard exoskeleton like roaches, crickets, grasshoppers etc. (= more chitin and fibre) are a better option than softer worms and caterpillars, which are usually higher in fat as well.


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## Nick120180

Draenog, you seem well versed in this and I must admit as to being unsure about feeding mine too much vegetable matter. He's been on raw for four months but has become a bit fat. Hes 590g down from 620 max and I'm currently feeding 23g raw meat (primarily ground chicken and rabbit / chicken and salmon) 25g fruit and veg, mainly veg (bell pepper, cucumber, peas, watermelon, lettuce, spinach, banana) and 10g insects (say 3 roaches, 1 locust, 1 morio worm, 5-10mealworms). Unlike some he willingly eats the fruit and veg and not even after he's finished all the meat.

Does this seem okay to you?


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## Soyala_Amaya

Update Day 4 of Homemade Hedge Food:
I have such a fat butt hedgie. I only put half the serving of HHF in last night, but I mixed it with a tablespoon of pumpkin to help move things along. He ate EVERY bite, kept going back to the bowl to lick it some more, AND about a tbls of kibble! Before he went to bed he weighed 15 grams more than normal, and he's already a touch over weight. I wanted him to loose 30-40 grams, not gain! However, not going to be working on weight loss until the gi issues are cleared.
However, he didn't go to his water even once.  I am finishing home made chicken stock today to put into his water to entice him, but right now the only moisture he's getting is from the HHF. I might begin sryingeing water within the week if he doesn't start drinking on his own again.
Poo update-5 pieces, MUCH better formed. You can tell he's getting more moisture because they're not hard little rocks anymore. Three pieces were a normal light brown, two were dark with green mucus. So...we're getting there. 
We fought over the blanket this morning. He didn't want to come out to take his meds.


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## DesireeM81

A raw diet means more water from food, which is how most animals actually get their water. It's okay if he isn't going to his water bowl as long as he isn't dehydrated. My guys water intakes vary on different nights depending on what they have. More raw foods or wet food means less water intake. On nights where I forget to thaw food, much more water gets drunk because all they have is kibble.


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## Draenog

Nick120180 said:


> Draenog, you seem well versed in this and I must admit as to being unsure about feeding mine too much vegetable matter. He's been on raw for four months but has become a bit fat. Hes 590g down from 620 max and I'm currently feeding 23g raw meat (primarily ground chicken and rabbit / chicken and salmon) 25g fruit and veg, mainly veg (bell pepper, cucumber, peas, watermelon, lettuce, spinach, banana) and 10g insects (say 3 roaches, 1 locust, 1 morio worm, 5-10mealworms). Unlike some he willingly eats the fruit and veg and not even after he's finished all the meat.
> 
> Does this seem okay to you?


Some of these veggies/fruits are mostly water and not much else, so I wouldn't be too concerned about them being very hard on his stomach. Esp things like cucumber and watermelon.

It's hard to say how much he should eat exactly without knowing the fat content of your food (meat). It might be too high in fat for him. Do you know the fat content of the meat? It's good to know the protein as well so you can balance it out.
I personally use raw diets for dogs/cats/ferrets (meat), this is not just ground meat but also ground bones and organ meat. The labels have the fat, protein etc. content listed so it's easier to check how much they should get.

Banana (and watermelon) are high in sugar as well, and some types of peas can have a high sugar content too so I would feed the sugary treats in moderation.


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## Soyala_Amaya

Email I got back from Skyview Labs, a lab reccomended to me by a pet nutritionist I was asking questions of. 

We analyze complete feeds for different animals, mostly dairy
but also zoos and wildlife so in this case it would help to have
your ingredients although it will not affect the numbers. Every
test we do is wet chemistry, NIRS. The cost depends on how
muxh we do and ranges from $ 20 - $ 30 and that will depend
on the ingredients..We need 2-4 oz of feed min. The test would
include minerals Protein Moisture and fibers.

I am SO doing this! That is super reasonable and I REALLY want to make sure my food is good for him!

On the plus side, he drank from his bowl last night! It was only for a few seconds, but I could see little water ripples from him drinking, I almost cried! I will do this wet food madness for the rest of his life if he will just get healthy for me!


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## Soyala_Amaya

My numbers came back! It really didn't take that long, I only mailed it out a week ago. I ordered a styrofoam lined mailing box since it was a wet food mix so it wouldn't dethaw, which is what took so long. This is the prelim report, but for a kind of diet food for my obese boy I think I did REALLY good! It needs a touch more protein, but since I'm giving him one tablespoon of this and .5 tablespoon of his kibble every night, I think it gets it all covered!


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## Soyala_Amaya

This is the article I used to understand the results. I think, the way I'm reading it, that the CRUDE Protein actually measures nitrogen, which comes from the true protein and the plants. The Digest Protein is closer to the true protein...I think. 
https://beef.unl.edu/learning/feedanalysis.shtml


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## CoffeeKat

I just realized, looking at the calendar, that it's been over a year since we switched LuLu to a raw diet, and thought maybe a brief update might be in order. I say "we" switched her to raw, but actually she switched herself....once I started offering raw food, she stopped eating kibble and never looked back. And the change has been good for her in every way: she's healthy, calm, active, great skin, and as I tell friends and family who ask about her, "She's so perfect she poops diamonds and farts pink glitter". She has gained weight since switching to raw, from 250 grams to 360 in the past year. At 17 months old, I doubt that she will get much bigger since she self-regulates her consumption and exercise, and she has always been a petite girl.

Her diet has not changed in the past year, because Lu is picky. She likes what she likes, and that's that. It took her a long time to train me, but we finally reached an agreement: she agrees to eat what she wants, and I agree to provide it. The only variable is fruits and vegetables. She is offered a "salad" every night, and sometimes eats some of it, and sometimes not. She has been known to eat green peppers, cucumber, spinach, mushrooms, watermelon, banana, cantaloupe, strawberries (seeds scraped off) and peeled zucchini. 

The staples of her diet are about 6 grams of frozen (thawed) pinky mice, 6 grams of Nature's Variety Instinct raw rabbit bites which were soaked in organic unsweetened apple juice, 6 grams of organic ground raw chicken, and roughly 3grams of mealworms fed at various times of the day...sometimes a few wax worms, but sparingly because of the fat content. Her dinner dish gets a light sprinkle of reptile calcium powder and a small animal vitamin powder, just to be on the safe side. I offer about half her food at 10 p.m., the rest before I go to bed at midnight and she is usually waiting for her dinner. It doesn't have a chance to go bad before it's eaten.

We've travelled several times and taken her with us, and she's still the star of our show  I haven't been hanging out on the forum much lately, no particular reason, but my interest in hedgehogs has not waned a bit.

Anyway, that's my LuLu update for what it's worth. Raw feeding isn't for everyone, but it's working for us (and no, I still have not watched her eat a pinky mouse. I don't want to see that side of her. She is discreet).


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## Lilysmommy

Glad to hear that Lulu is doing great!


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## CoffeeKat

Time for another update, in case someone down the road is researching raw or natural diets and is curious about long-term effects. I just re-read my previous post from June and realized that nothing has changed on the LuLu front. 

Lu is nearly 2 years old, and has been on a raw diet for the past 18 months. Her weight stays steady at about 370 grams, her health is good and her activity level is normal. We lucked out in getting a girl who is fastidious, because she is very clean and low-maintenance...she only poops and pees on her wheel, usually after she runs so seldom runs in it. When she does get poop on her toes, she usually cleans her own feet. I know that hedgehogs are not known for their self-grooming habits, but LuLu did not read that book. She also tolerates having her nails clipped as long as I don't try to push my luck. I am able to snip one or two every day, so this schedule works for us.

The only downside is that over the months, she has become less and less of a cuddler and more of a Bette Davis ("I vant to be alone!") She tolerates daily interaction but does not seem to enjoy it, although she never runs from any of us. It's more a case of "Let's get this over with so I can go back to bed." 

My biggest issue now is discouraging friends and family from getting their own hedgehog, because as you all know, hedgehogs are not perfect pets and definitely not for everyone. I just cringe when someone says, "She's so cute! Where can I get one?"

I've also managed to put together a self-sustaining mealworm farm on a small scale, with all my current worms second or third generation raised by me, so I know exactly what they have been eating. We call it my herd of tiny livestock and I find it to be an interesting hobby although I did overhear my youngest grandson tell someone that "Grandma has a whole drawer of bugs in her house and a bag of dead baby mice in her refrigerator" (actually they are in the freezer). He's the same kid who also told someone that "Grandma and Grandpa sit around and watch their porky-pine poop on the table". Well, yes we do, actually. Before we put her in the playpen for activity time, we put her on a waterproof baby lap pad on the table with a big igloo, so she can scurry inside to do her business and she thinks we can't see her. 

So that's our update, for what it's worth. We are the most boring people we know, we have the most boring pet ever, and we like it that way  There's a certain comfort to leading a boring life.


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## Lilysmommy

:lol: I'm cracking up at your grandson! Kids do like to share all of the interesting things you do, don't they?

I'm glad to hear Lulu is still doing so well with her diet! That's fantastic news, and definitely encouraging for people that are looking into doing a raw diet.  I'm planning on overhauling the raw/home-made diet sticky soon, I'm just trying to get real life to calm down a bit before I get back to my online research/work. I did a much more detailed article for a raw feeding group I'm in on Facebook (not the Raw Feeding Community group, a newer one that a MI person started), so I'm probably going to use a lot of that to update HHC's sticky. Also planning to start my own thread to update on once I can start switching Bindi's diet.

That's a bit disappointing that Lulu's decided cuddles are for suckers...but sounds just like a hedgehog. At least she isn't a total grump about it! And it's great that she still allows for important daily care. I'm with you on discouraging people from getting hedgehogs. I love to show people how cute my baby is, but I'm quickly to list off all of the negatives as soon as they show any interest in wanting one. I figure if they can make it through the list of "poops a lot, poops on their wheel, can bite & bite hard, need an expensive heating system, expensive vet bills, prone to cancer, not friendly, did I mention poops a lot?, etc." and still be even a little interested, then they can be directed to the forums to begin their research. :lol: But usually by that point, I'm getting "Okay so why do you even have one??".

And Kalandra and I were recently mentioning that boring is definitely preferable where hedgehogs are concerned! I'll take boring & comfortable over exciting & scary/bad any day.


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