# Breeder Red Flags.



## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

I thought it may be a good idea to start a list of breeder red flags. Please contribute. 

1. Breeder breeds multiple species.

2. Breeder is unwilling to give you a tour of their hedgie room.

3. Breeder does not ask you any questions pertaining to your hedgie knowledge or hedgie set up before sending a hoglet home with you.

4. Breeder uses rescued hedgies (ie they have no bloodlines or pedigree for hedgie) for breeding stock. 

5. Breeder allows hoglets under the age of 6 weeks to be sent to their new homes.


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## Christemo (Oct 5, 2011)

1. Not necessarily. Larry is a great breeder, and breeds both hedgehogs and rat terriers.


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## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

Christemo said:


> 1. Not necessarily. Larry is a great breeder, and breeds both hedgehogs and rat terriers.


I should clarify. When I said multiple I mean several. For example the breeders that are breeding all kinds of exotics (hedgies, degus, chins, gliders), and even more pets.

I had a rat breeder I looked at who bred Great Danes, Servals, rats, chins, gliders, monkeys (not sure which particular kind). Needless to say the animals were packed into the house in poor conditions and clearly had not been handled.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

2) Not true. Most breeders won't allow visitors into their hedgie rooms, especially if they have babies or expectant mothers. It's too stressful for them if strangers are constantly going in and out. 
They SHOULD however, be able to sit down with you and properly give you the time to introduce yourself to the hoglets they have available, and answer any of your questions. I know I spent well over an hour talking to the breeder when I went to pick my boy up. He was curled up asleep in my hands the entire time, after peeing in my hands first of course


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## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

Immortalia said:


> 2) Not true. Most breeders won't allow visitors into their hedgie rooms, especially if they have babies or expectant mothers. It's too stressful for them if strangers are constantly going in and out.
> They SHOULD however, be able to sit down with you and properly give you the time to introduce yourself to the hoglets they have available, and answer any of your questions. I know I spent well over an hour talking to the breeder when I went to pick my boy up. He was curled up asleep in my hands the entire time, after peeing in my hands first of course


Thank you for the correction & clarification.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Multiple species isn't necessarily bad. There would be more concern with the number of breeding animals in total. 

A breeder not allowing tours of the hedgie room is not at all cause for concern. Strangers in the room where there are pregnant or nursing moms puts babies at risk. Also, things like ringworm, fleas etc can all come in on someones clothing. I rarely let anyone in my hedgie room and never if I had pregnant or nursing girls.


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## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

Okay okay I get the idea. Should I switch this topic to "Questions to ask a Breeder" instead?

I didn't start this thread to attack breeders in anyway. Its just that there are some legitimate breeders and some that are not. I think it'd be good to help people with choosing a good breeder, especially because I do not feel that getting a hedgie from a USDA licensed breeder is the only way to determine a good breeder. 

Not everything listed on the list can be set in stone, there will always be an exception to the red flags but I just wanted to see if we could compile a list so people can be more informed, know what to look for, and ask questions.


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## greenbeansrabbitry (Sep 10, 2008)

I kind of take offense to the first one, I raise several types of animals and provide them with the best care possible and screen homes very thoroughly and require contracts. I ask tons of questions and if I don't feel they would make a great owner, I won't sell any animal to them. Not trying to be rude, just giving it from my point of view on that one!


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## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

greenbeansrabbitry said:


> I kind of take offense to the first one, I raise several types of animals and provide them with the best care possible and screen homes very thoroughly and require contracts. I ask tons of questions and if I don't feel they would make a great owner, I won't sell any animal to them. Not trying to be rude, just giving it from my point of view on that one!


Like I said its nothing set in stone. By screening the homes your animals are going to that is a very good indication that you care about the animals you're breeding and have high standards for their quality of life. 
You do understand where its coming from though right? Many people with too many (I'm trying to word this as clearly as possible) species breeding take short cuts when it comes to care. Breeding multiple species and doing so with great knowledge and care is IMO a rarity (a rarity that I respect and appreciate but nonetheless a rarity).


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## greenbeansrabbitry (Sep 10, 2008)

I totally understand what you're saying and agree. I was just saying that it's not every breeder that raises multiple species that are bad. I didn't see your post after Nancy's until after I hit enter!


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## CresposCrazyCritters (Jan 26, 2012)

There are many reasons not to allow a tour of a room or even handling of young hedgehogs. There are things that YOU can carry into the facility that can cause a breeder to lose stock. Most ratteries are completely closed facilities due to this. Also as stated before hedgehogs can be stressed by the new smells and such from the visitors. Most exotic animal exhibitors also won't let you into their facilities. 
Several species is another issue - doesn't mean that they aren't capable and very good at husbandry of the animals in their care. 

I am sure that customer service, how someone responds to you, the general appearance of the animals, etc are better indicators of what makes a good or bad experience.

thanks for reading!


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

As a former breeder, IMO a good breeder is one that is active in the general hedgehog community, giving advice and helping people. The same can be said of sellers. There are some breeders and sellers who only come on here to show pictures of cute babies, or to post things for sale. They never or rarely offer advice. 

You can tell a lot about the breeders who frequent the forums. You get an idea of their knowledge level, experience and how they care for their animals. You can be just about certain that breeders who are visibly active on the forums are going to be the breeders who will be there for after sale support. 

As well as it being difficult for potential owners to judge a breeder, it is also equally difficult for breeders to judge a potential owner. People are not always what they portray themselves to be.


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## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

Nancy said:


> People are not always what they portray themselves to be.


And there is one of the many reasons to have a pet, they don't lie to you.


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## CresposCrazyCritters (Jan 26, 2012)

Well said Nancy.
I do have to say that not being active on forums does not mean that you are not a knowledgable or reputable breeder though I am sure that it makes it easier for people to judge your knowledge base and bedside manner. 
I am not on forums much if at all... I do make myself available to customers via email, phone, FB, and text messages. I am really good at getting abck to people quickly that way verses keeping up on forum discussions. 



And I agree that it's tough to sometimes read what a potential customer is really after in all the extensive questioning about lineage and pedigrees. I simply tell everyone we keep 5 + generations on our animals and use dog breeding software to keep things backed up and straightened out. I do not give more than a parents name to customers BUT when they come to my house I do let them meet dad and cousins or uncles/aunts...


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## EinsteinsMama (Jan 18, 2012)

One thing that I loved about the breeder I got Einstein from is that when we had a question and called her, she called back almost immediately. She didn't make us wait a couple of days or a week to answer a question about food. She was also very concerned about him, making me promise to call her the next day if his stress poops didn't become normal. She also expressed how much she loves getting the 'my baby hedgehog is perfect' calls and rarely receives those calls and tries to contact the owner to see how they are doing.

I think research is important in your quest to find a respected breeder. However, you have to realize that people tend to blow things out of proportion and exaggerate the truth just a bit (or a mile :lol: ). I blame reality television. :lol:


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## greenbeansrabbitry (Sep 10, 2008)

CresposCrazyCritters said:


> Well said Nancy.
> I do have to say that not being active on forums does not mean that you are not a knowledgable or reputable breeder though I am sure that it makes it easier for people to judge your knowledge base and bedside manner.
> I am not on forums much if at all... I do make myself available to customers via email, phone, FB, and text messages. I am really good at getting abck to people quickly that way verses keeping up on forum discussions.
> 
> And I agree that it's tough to sometimes read what a potential customer is really after in all the extensive questioning about lineage and pedigrees. I simply tell everyone we keep 5 + generations on our animals and use dog breeding software to keep things backed up and straightened out. I do not give more than a parents name to customers BUT when they come to my house I do let them meet dad and cousins or uncles/aunts...


Agreed!


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

EinsteinsMama said:


> However, you have to realize that people tend to blow things out of proportion and exaggerate the truth just a bit (or a mile :lol: )


  I wish we had a big smiley clapping it's hands, if we did I would post it here!


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

6. Breeder's knowledge does not seem up-to-date, or breeder refuses to listen to any other way to do things other than their own.

7. Breeder belittles you for researching hedgehogs online, or tells you that their way of taking care of a hog is the only way.

I say this for several reasons. The breeder I got Mildred from seemed rather intelligent over the phone, but when I got to his house.... :roll: Several screaming kids, 4 or 5 barking dogs, and a cat that was allowed in the hedgie room unsupervised. I can't imagine how any of his hogs slept a wink during the day.

Looking back on my experience with him, I really wish I had done more research about finding a good breeder. I just kept running across the "check hedgie's eyes and nose to make sure they're clear, interact with them to make sure they are socialized, make sure they don't look underweight" stuff - not the big stuff. My breeder gave me a water bottle and I told him I planned on using a bowl, and he gave me this look like, "Uhh, why?" I explained to him that I had read here at HHC that bottles can and have hurt hedgie's tongues, chipped teeth, etc and he told me that you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet and that his hogs are just fine using bottles. He said bottles are better because bedding doesn't get in it and you can't tip it over like you can with a bowl. I told him that I was using fleece for bedding and he asked where I was told that that was okay, because hedgehogs are burrowers and *need* something to dig in.

His care sheet said their cage temperature needs to be between 65 and 85 degrees, and recommended pine shavings for bedding. I called him over the summer to see what he does for helping to keep his cages cool and he said "Hedgehogs naturally live in hot climates so your hog will be just fine if the cage temp is at 85 degrees." :shock:

Now, things have gone smoothly with Milly since I brought her home 8 months ago and I don't regret getting her. This breeder was very nice for the most part and encouraged me to keep in touch with him about how she's doing and to call with any questions, day or night. But had I known that he was going to try to force his personal preferences on me, make me feel like an idiot for researching online, and bash HHC, I would have looked a lot harder for a different breeder.


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## JustOnePost (Dec 27, 2011)

hanhan27 said:


> 6. Breeder's knowledge does not seem up-to-date, or breeder refuses to listen to any other way to do things other than their own.
> 
> 7. Breeder belittles you for researching hedgehogs online, or tells you that their way of taking care of a hog is the only way.
> 
> ...


I would agree with this and add a side of caution while your experience with this individual warrants your response I dare anyone to google some of the following things:

Hedgehog Dry Skin Problems
Hedgehog Care

You'll still find near the top suggestions of tea tree oil and many horrid care tips along with frightening videos from youtube.

I can see a lot of very good breeders being defensive about people mentioning their research online even if they mention HHC it isn't universally recognized, while they certainly shouldn't get ignorant or make it seem their way is the only way its difficult when you are the breeder and someone gettign a hedgehog believes they have their knowledge and its better then what they are doing and they haven't owned a hedgehog before and thus it is IMO a bit insulting.

This is not to say some breeders do not have old information and continue on it set in their ways however even some of the highly recommended and best practices hear are not shared by some of the most respected hedgehog community people such as Standing Bear who still uses Royal Canin as a main staple diet for his rescues with very wonderful results by far.

My advice for all prospective hedgehog owners looking for a hedgehog is the same as anything else...

Buyer beware, do research and find sources however you can never be 100% certain of it unless you uncover something liek a legal matter pertaining to the breeder.

One of the most common tossed things to a bad breeder here is they are not USDA certified, well LarryT only has the two females and does not need to be USDA certified and has wonderful hedgehogs from all I have heard and has for the past few years provided quality customer service and wheels for the hedgehog community, so again its all about looking beyond the surface and getting to know the person.

Remember the breeder isn't doing this for a living they do it as a hobby.passion for hedgehogs and bringing joy to the world with these little quilled ones.

The best advice is to decide on your own merit, other input is important, however understanding that not everything may be as clear as one thinks should always be kept in mind. Many breeders are not web techs and thus their sites do suffer, however this doesn't mean they do not care. I do think they should correct data that is out dated, remember they are human they do have families and they do have jobs in many cases which pull them away.

Ultimately it is the owner's responsibility to find someone they feel comfortable with and find what they need, and if the breeder is set in their ways there is little that can be done aside from brining the quilled one you purchased a life you feel is better for them. No one here is Superman/woman and while it'd be nice we can't make it go our way always.

There are always two sides to every story and then there is the truth...


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## GoldenEyes (Nov 4, 2011)

i remember walking into my breeders house and being bombarded with dogs. German Sheps, labs, goldens, terriers. Then she went on to say she had 26 puppies THEN during our talk a man walks into her home, interrupts us gives her money and she hands over this lab puppy....

it was weird and messed up...

soi hear what youre sayong about your number 1 red flag


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## lehaley (Jun 25, 2011)

GoldenEyes said:


> soi hear what youre sayong about your number 1 red flag


I would agree with number one, but only to a point. I know that there are some people out there who see animals as just a business, take puppy mills for example. On the other hand, I've known people who breed more than one type of animal and are absolutely fantastic about it and take wonderful care of both their animals and the people who end up bringing them home. It could really go either way, so I don't know if this is necessarily a good determinant of whether or not to trust a breeder. It might raise a teeny tiny red flag for me, but wouldn't cause me to jump to any conclusions and immediately run in the other direction.


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## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

I think with 'red flags', some have more weight than others. For instance, seeing that someone breeds many kinds of exotic pets, which could go either way, would on its own be more of an indication that the potential buyer should look more closely and ask questions about the care of the animals, etc. - but in combination with several other red flags/questionable things, it would potentially hold more weight. The same goes for the ones on my list; some of them are more important than others. 

Feel free to disagree or tweak them. :]

- Any indication that the females are being bred more frequently than they should be. For hedgehogs, every 6 months is the best for their health. This wouldn't be very obvious on a website, but say if there's a litter by a certain female listed with a certain birth date, and then the same female is later listed as having another litter due much sooner than 6 months, that would be a clear indicator that the breeder is just trying to churn out babies and not caring about the health of the females.

- The babies are sent to their new homes before 6 weeks. (Or before the 'earliest acceptable age' if it differs for another animal. I know 6 weeks or later is pretty standard for puppies and kittens; a lot of credible dog breeders will keep the puppies until 8 weeks.)

- The breeder is willing to ship to or sell to someone who lives in a state where hedgehogs are illegal.

- The breeder is unwilling to take one of their babies at any point later on if the owners are unable to keep them; or unwilling to at least aid in the process of rehoming. (Often the contract or whatever will include a stipulation that the baby must be returned should rehoming become necessary, at any point in the animal's life, so the breeder can be sure they get a good home.)

- Babies advertised as being good holiday/birthday presents.

- No information is provided about the parents (breeding males and females). This includes litters being listed only by the mother's name. Not all breeders will have sections of their websites dedicated to their 'herd', but they should be willing to provide basic information at least about the parents of the available babies when it's asked for.


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## jngy slate (Mar 14, 2009)

number 1 just isnt true. check the hedgies to make sure theyre happy and healthy and dont have injuries, look and see what theyre using as bedding and check the temperature. look at how the other pets are treated. 
there is a wonderful store called S&S exotic pets that sells all kinds of pets. 
especially if they have older hedgies check that they can unroll all the way, check the temperature, the roo mtheyre in, how crowded the place is.


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## Sar-uh (Sep 6, 2011)

hanhan27 said:


> 6. Breeder's knowledge does not seem up-to-date, or breeder refuses to listen to any other way to do things other than their own.
> 
> 7. Breeder belittles you for researching hedgehogs online, or tells you that their way of taking care of a hog is the only way.
> 
> ...


This is very similar to my experience with my breeder. For the most part, she was nice and had been breeding hogs for several years, but she sure didn't like it that I was doing extensive research online. Her own website is pretty vague...

She didn't really ask about my setup, and didn't seem to know anything about having a heating source or a light schedule. I got yelled at for allowing the vet to take x-rays of her. It was one thing after another that just didn't sit well with me. Next time, I'm going to look a little harder for a breeder I feel comfortable with.


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## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

lehaley said:


> GoldenEyes said:
> 
> 
> > soi hear what youre sayong about your number 1 red flag
> ...


Agreed. I don't think you should run screaming away from a breeder because of one red flag. The whole picture must be taken into account before making a decision. I think most people can tell the difference from a breeder that is breeding multiple species because they love a wide range of animals and want to produce healthy friendly companions for others to enjoy v. the breeder that's just trying to make a quick buck.

For example if you come across a breeder that breeds multiple species, doesn't allow their breeding females to have adequate time in between litters, and sells babies immediately after or even prior to being weaned that would lead most to say that this is not the best breeder to buy from.

However if you come across a breeder who breeds many different species and is well informed, keeps all animals in a clean and safe environment, and take their time to make sure you know what you need to properly care for your little one this is a sign that the breeder is passionate about their animals and likely a good breeder to consider.


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## Christemo (Oct 5, 2011)

I just saw this on a breeders website.

If there are major spelling mistakes on their websites, it makes me feel as if they don't care enough about their business, so why would they care much about their animals?
One or two minor "speed typing" mistakes I can understand, but misspelling simple words... multiple times... is something that is just careless. 
You have to keep your public appearance.

*removes self off of industrial/organizational psychology soapbox*


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## NoBeardPete (Jan 24, 2012)

chelsea.kang said:


> 4. Breeder uses rescued hedgies (ie they have no bloodlines or pedigree for hedgie) for breeding stock.


I can't disagree with this one strongly enough. The idea of bloodlines and pedigree are absolutely the worst thing to ever happen to dogs, cats, and a variety of other species. It's resulted in a lot of suffering for a lot of inbred animals. It's a creepy idea anyway, generally popular in monarchical and aristocratic societies, and which doesn't belong in the modern age.

If you're trying to breed animals for, say, an outgoing and friendly personality, it's worth trying to breed any individual you find who seems to have these traits. If you're not familiar with their ancestry, you might be a bit wary, and thus scrutinize their offspring extra carefully for any other unwanted traits. But insisting on only breeding known quantities narrows the gene pool, increasing the chances of genetic problems and decreasing the breeder's ability to make the changes he's looking to make.

The only reason you would really want to stick to purebred, pedigreed animals is if you already have exactly all of the traits you want perfectly right, and you're just trying to prevent any changes at all from entering into your stock. Hedgehogs might be there one day, but they're not there yet.


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## chelsea.kang (Dec 2, 2011)

Consider the rescues that have WHS in their lines or have been inbred because they were accidental babies in pet stores (brother/sister) or inbred hedgies from immoral breeders/mills. That is why it is important to know the lines of a hedgie.

They aren't dogs or cats, breeders aren't breeding for a particular head, gait, etc. They are breeding for health and personality.


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## Herisson (Jan 7, 2009)

chelsea.kang said:


> Consider the rescues that have WHS in their lines or have been inbred because they were accidental babies in pet stores (brother/sister) or inbred hedgies from immoral breeders/mills. That is why it is important to know the lines of a hedgie.
> 
> They aren't dogs or cats, breeders aren't breeding for a particular head, gait, etc. They are breeding for health and personality.


Well said Chelsea!


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## connorshogs (Mar 24, 2011)

Hey all 
I Must say IMO Just because a breeder recommends shavings for bedding does not mean its a red Flag. I tell my customers what kind of bedding i use and what other people use to give them options.
I take very good care of my hedgies And i chose to use shavings I am not crazy about liners. My Hedgies love the shavings. I know some Good Breeders that prefer shavings over liners. i think its all on what the breeder likes. I Also treat for mites every few moths but i think the shavings are awesome.
What i think is a Big Red Flag is Nothing offered against WHS that to me Makes Me not get a hedgie from a breeder. 
Again just my view on it.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

NoBeardPete said:


> chelsea.kang said:
> 
> 
> > 4. Breeder uses rescued hedgies (ie they have no bloodlines or pedigree for hedgie) for breeding stock.
> ...


It's exactly this type of attitude that is the reason a disease such as WHS is so difficult to eradicate in our pet hedgehogs.

Not only is breeding rescues irresponsible as far as what the hedgehog might be passing on, without having background on the hedgehog you could be breeding a female that is past the safe age for a first pregnancy. With a rescue, you have no idea the care the hedgehog has received and even if it is healthy enough to breed.

People who breed rescues are looked down on no matter what the species. As hard as reputable breeders are working at trying to eradicate WHS and breed healthy hedgehogs, it is breeders with attitudes like yours that undo all they good that reputable breeders are trying to accomplish.

I truly hope you are not, nor planning to be a breeder.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

connorshogs said:


> Hey all
> I Must say IMO Just because a breeder recommends shavings for bedding does not mean its a red Flag. I tell my customers what kind of bedding i use and what other people use to give them options.
> I take very good care of my hedgies And i chose to use shavings I am not crazy about liners. My Hedgies love the shavings. I know some Good Breeders that prefer shavings over liners. i think its all on what the breeder likes. I Also treat for mites every few moths but i think the shavings are awesome.
> What i think is a Big Red Flag is Nothing offered against WHS that to me Makes Me not get a hedgie from a breeder.
> Again just my view on it.


LOTS of GOOD breeders use shavings the majority, esp. those with a good size herd, definitely no red flag.  And telling the buyers about other options is great, let them decide what works best for them and their hedgie.


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## Herisson (Jan 7, 2009)

chelsea.kang said:


> Consider the rescues that have WHS in their lines or have been inbred because they were accidental babies in pet stores (brother/sister) or inbred hedgies from immoral breeders/mills. That is why it is important to know the lines of a hedgie.


My Herisson is stunning. I have been approached by more than one breeder to use him for breeding. I got him from a pet store and of course once that was known, he was not considered at that point by any of the breeders. Good thing because he has been fighting FLD, resulting in kidney failure for a long time now.

Is he pretty? Yes!

Is he sweet? Yes!

Is he healthy? No&#8230;

Is he fit for breeding? NO!

Had he been put into breeding, he could have had many offspring before his health issues were known.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

LarryT said:


> connorshogs said:
> 
> 
> > Hey all
> ...


I personally think liners are the best option for hedgies, but because a breeder uses shavings is not a red flag. We can't use liners for moms and babies so it has to be a loose type of bedding. There aren't many options besides aspen, kd pine and carefresh. None are ideal but IMO, shavings are better than Carefresh which can cause impaction if they ingest it. I used shavings with my moms and babies. Everyone else got liners.


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## Christemo (Oct 5, 2011)

Amelia is absolutely stunning, but we have no history of her, and wouldn't think of breeding her.


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

connorshogs said:


> Hey all
> I Must say IMO Just because a breeder recommends shavings for bedding does not mean its a red Flag. I tell my customers what kind of bedding i use and what other people use to give them options.
> I take very good care of my hedgies And i chose to use shavings I am not crazy about liners. My Hedgies love the shavings. I know some Good Breeders that prefer shavings over liners. i think its all on what the breeder likes. I Also treat for mites every few moths but i think the shavings are awesome.
> What i think is a Big Red Flag is Nothing offered against WHS that to me Makes Me not get a hedgie from a breeder.
> Again just my view on it.


I'm not sure if this was in reference to my post, because I didn't see any other mention of shavings in any other post... but the reason I pointed that out was because my breeder told me hedgehogs *NEED* to have something to dig in, and made me feel like an idiot for doing research here at HHC and deciding on using fleece for bedding. I personally won't use shavings, but I don't consider the use of shavings to be a red flag.

I don't remember who mentioned that HHC is not universally known, so we can't blame breeders for doubting our sources... after we talked about all of this, we talked about HHC for quite a while and he told me all about how he had been trying to get on the breeder's list here at HHC and he liked the site lay out. :roll: So, in this particular case, he knew what HHC was, knew that it is a reputable hedgehog forum, and proceeded to tell me not to listen to what I read here.


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## NoBeardPete (Jan 24, 2012)

Nancy said:


> It's exactly this type of attitude that is the reason a disease such as WHS is so difficult to eradicate in our pet hedgehogs.
> 
> Not only is breeding rescues irresponsible as far as what the hedgehog might be passing on, without having background on the hedgehog you could be breeding a female that is past the safe age for a first pregnancy. With a rescue, you have no idea the care the hedgehog has received and even if it is healthy enough to breed.
> 
> ...


I get the feeling you're discussing a different scenario than I am. I'm not advocating that a breeder should bring a new rescued hedgehog home, have her start popping out babies, and then sell them to new owners. I'm saying that a good breeder is always on the lookout for good new genetic material to broaden the gene pool they're working with. I'm saying that I can imagine a situation in which a breeder takes in a rescue, gets to know the animal, and realizes that he's unusually friendly and seems to be in good health. In that situation, I think it would be appropriate for a good breeder to breed this animal on a trial basis. If the children grow up to be healthy, and seem to have inherited the sweet disposition of the original rescue, they, too, might be bred. Any grandchildren that resulted would probably be the first that you might want to release to someone else.

This is not a likely scenario, for all the reasons that you and others have pointed out. And for most small time, amateur breeders, it probably wouldn't make sense to try to do this even if an appealing animal showed up from a hedgehog rescue, because it takes a lot of time and patience to see how subsequent generations pan out before deciding if the experiment was a success or a failure.

I'm not, nor do I plan on being a breeder. But I have to say, your attitude here is really lousy. You went straight for the ad hominem attacks, and your post is dripping in condescension. It's very unappealing.


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## Christemo (Oct 5, 2011)

You never breed for trial. Hedgehogs, or any other pets, are not science experiments. 
If it's a rescue with no papers, no lineage, and no family medical history, DO NOT BREED THEM.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

Christemo said:


> You never breed for trial. Hedgehogs, or any other pets, are not science experiments.
> If it's a rescue with no papers, no lineage, and no family medical history, DO NOT BREED THEM.


Yep, that pretty sums it up.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

NoBeardPete said:


> Nancy said:
> 
> 
> > It's exactly this type of attitude that is the reason a disease such as WHS is so difficult to eradicate in our pet hedgehogs.
> ...


Unappealing to who? You maybe but not to us. We don't breed rescues period and we definitely don't approve of it.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

> Any grandchildren that resulted would probably be the first that you might want to release to someone else.


Since WHS can show up five or more generations down a line, even the grandchildren shouldn't be sold, so what are you going to do with all the babies you got before you get 6, 7 or more generations from the original rescused hedgehog? That's alot of babies.


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## NoBeardPete (Jan 24, 2012)

LarryT said:


> Unappealing to who? You maybe but not to us. We don't breed rescues period and we definitely don't approve of it.


This is a total non sequitur. What are you even talking about? You seem to be trying to rebut my comment on the unappealingness of condescending attitude and ad hominem attacks by talking about your breeding standards. The two have nothing to do with each other.


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## LarryT (May 12, 2009)

NoBeardPete said:


> LarryT said:
> 
> 
> > Unappealing to who? You maybe but not to us. We don't breed rescues period and we definitely don't approve of it.
> ...


Whatever :roll:


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## lehaley (Jun 25, 2011)

NoBeardPete, you will find that the majority of reputable breeders in the hedgehog community do not condone the breeding of recue hedgehogs who are lacking a pedigree. You would be hard pressed to find a reputable (again, "reputable" being the key word here) breeder who believes otherwise. WHS is a devastating illness for both a hedgehog and a hedgehog owner, and unfortunately it is still very common despite efforts to eradicate it from the genetic pool. Breeders monitor pedigrees in order to combat this disease in the same way people see geneticists to avoid passing on similarly devastating genetic disorders to their future children. Perhaps you are not incredibly familiar with WHS and what it does to a hedgehog. Breeding a hedgehog that has the potential to pass WHS to his/her future offspring simply because the hedgehog has a stunning appearance or an attractive temperament is incredibly irresponsible. I would even go so far as to call it inhumane.


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## NoBeardPete (Jan 24, 2012)

lehaley said:


> NoBeardPete, you will find that the majority of reputable breeders in the hedgehog community do not condone the breeding of recue hedgehogs who are lacking a pedigree. You would be hard pressed to find a reputable (again, "reputable" being the key word here) breeder who believes otherwise. WHS is a devastating illness for both a hedgehog and a hedgehog owner, and unfortunately it is still very common despite efforts to eradicate it from the genetic pool. Breeders monitor pedigrees in order to combat this disease in the same way people see geneticists to avoid passing on similarly devastating genetic disorders to their future children. Perhaps you are not incredibly familiar with WHS and what it does to a hedgehog. Breeding a hedgehog that has the potential to pass WHS to his/her future offspring simply because the hedgehog has a stunning appearance or an attractive temperament is incredibly irresponsible. I would even go so far as to call it inhumane.


Thanks, Lehaley. Your post is informative and to the point, without unnecessary hostility or personal attacks.

I'm interested in exploring your position a little further. Suppose you fell in love with a person with a family history of a devastating genetic illness. Just to make the example concrete, let's say the gentleman in question had a great-grandparent with Huntington's disease, but that the grandparent and parent in that line both died in early adulthood in car accidents. So there's a small but substantial chance that he might have Huntington's disease, and that he might be able to pass it on to any children. For the sake of exploring the values here, let's suppose this is taking place before there was a definitive genetic test for the disease.

Would you consider it incredibly irresponsible and/or inhumane to have children with this man despite the risks?


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## lehaley (Jun 25, 2011)

NoBeardPete said:


> Thanks, Lehaley. Your post is informative and to the point, without unnecessary hostility or personal attacks.
> 
> I'm interested in exploring your position a little further. Suppose you fell in love with a person with a family history of a devastating genetic illness. Just to make the example concrete, let's say the gentleman in question had a great-grandparent with Huntington's disease, but that the grandparent and parent in that line both died in early adulthood in car accidents. So there's a small but substantial chance that he might have Huntington's disease, and that he might be able to pass it on to any children. For the sake of exploring the values here, let's suppose this is taking place before there was a definitive genetic test for the disease.
> 
> Would you consider it incredibly irresponsible and/or inhumane to have children with this man despite the risks?


In all fairness, I have to point out that I am a nursing student with a pretty lengthy science and medical background. I've taken quite a few genetics classes and have worked with many people who suffer from hereditary illnesses. I also had a close friend whose father died of Huntington's disease and hadn't been aware that he was a carrier before having my friend and her sister. I admit that I could be a bit biased in my opinions because of both of these things.

All things aside... I can honestly say that if there were any chance that myself or my partner could pass an incredibly life-altering genetic illness onto a child, I would not risk it. I know that for other people the situation may not be as black and white as it is to me, and believe me when I say that I understand how others could really struggle emotionally with a decision like this. However, for me it's really cut and dry and I personally would feel as though I were behaving irresponsibly and inhumanely if I acted otherwise.


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## Christemo (Oct 5, 2011)

Alright, first hand experience.
I have three diseases that are 100% genetic, or able to be passed from mother to infant.
Would I want to have a child, knowing their limited diet, pain, suffering, and medications they'd have to take to keep them alive? NO.


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## NoBeardPete (Jan 24, 2012)

lehaley said:


> In all fairness, I have to point out that I am a nursing student with a pretty lengthy science and medical background. I've taken quite a few genetics classes and have worked with many people who suffer from hereditary illnesses. I also had a close friend whose father died of Huntington's disease and hadn't been aware that he was a carrier before having my friend and her sister. I admit that I could be a bit biased in my opinions because of both of these things.
> 
> All things aside... I can honestly say that if there were any chance that myself or my partner could pass an incredibly life-altering genetic illness onto a child, I would not risk it. I know that for other people the situation may not be as black and white as it is to me, and believe me when I say that I understand how others could really struggle emotionally with a decision like this. However, for me it's really cut and dry and I personally would feel as though I were behaving irresponsibly and inhumanely if I acted otherwise.


If there was _any_ chance, you wouldn't risk it? That can't be true - there's always some chance of passing a genetic illness to a child; it's never zero. There's always some risk. Unless you're prepared to argue that no one should have any children ever, people have to be prepared to accept a certain amount of risk. The question is how do you decide where to draw the line.

Personally, if I or my partner had a parent with Huntington's, I'd be wary of having children without taking steps to insure they'd be ok (IVF with pre-implantation screening, for example). But if we were in a situation where there was a small but real risk, as described in the situation with an affected great-grandparent... it'd be a source of some anxiety, but I think that if there were no tests or procedures to be done to help, I might just go ahead with things and hope for the best.


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## Christemo (Oct 5, 2011)

Now we're talking about IVF, which is on the ridiculous side for breeding hedgehogs with NO BACKGROUND INFORMATION.


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## lehaley (Jun 25, 2011)

Although I can see where you're coming from and what point you're trying to make NoBeardPete, Christemo is right. This conversation has sort of veered off topic and I'm sure our friendly neighborhood forum moderators probably wouldn't appreciate that much. :lol:


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## NoBeardPete (Jan 24, 2012)

lehaley said:


> Although I can see where you're coming from and what point you're trying to make NoBeardPete, Christemo is right. This conversation has sort of veered off topic and I'm sure our friendly neighborhood forum moderators probably wouldn't appreciate that much. :lol:


I think it directly relates to the spiky little guys. Nancy apparently looks down on people who breed hedgehogs without a known and documented lineage. Larry has the decency not to personally look down on people who do this, but disapproves of the practice. And you made the claim that its not only irresponsible, but inhumane to breed a hedgehog, not just for which there's evidence of familial illness, but for which you don't have affirmative evidence of a lack of a family history of wobbly hedgehog syndrome. But people choose mates all the time without knowing each others' family history. Is it irresponsible to have children with a partner who you haven't affirmatively investigated their family health history? Is it inhumane to have children with someone who may be at a slightly elevated risk of being a carrier of some adverse phenotype?

I think there's a lot of hyperbole being thrown around here. I think it's instructive to compare the standards that some posters here take to be dire moral imperatives to the standards we hold people to in their own lives. I love my hedgehog quite a bit, and I want him to be happy and healthy. But to claim I'm to be looked down on, or that I'm inhumane, because I suggest that it might not be unreasonable to put the same amount of care and thought into breeding a hedgehog as one puts into having their own son or daughter? That's absurd. And I think looking at the human analogy really helps illustrate the absurdity of it.


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## lmg_319 (Oct 4, 2010)

I always find it strange that the people who argue with everyone are never long term members, they have always just joined. For example, Nobeardpete joined on tuesday. Always makes me wonder if they just made the account to have somewhere to argue. Nobeardpete is now putting down our long term breeders and MODS. I think this thread should be locked.


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## lehaley (Jun 25, 2011)

lmg_319 said:


> I always find it strange that the people who argue with everyone are never long term members, they have always just joined. For example, Nobeardpete joined on tuesday. Always makes me wonder if they just made the account to have somewhere to argue. Nobeardpete is now putting down our long term breeders and MODS. I think this thread should be locked.


Well, I wouldn't say lock it. The OP had good intentions and a thread about breeder red flags would certainly be helpful. It just veered off course a little today. :|


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## hanhan27 (May 12, 2011)

I personally think this thread was a good idea and can be super informative and helpful to potential hedgehog owners, so it should be cleaned up instead of locked. HHC doesn't believe in breeding animals who we know nothing about. End of story. Nancy worded her feelings strongly because she cares about hogs and their well being, not because she has a bad attitude or she is condescending. Nancy has been nothing but a huge help here at HHC and I think all of us should appreciate the fact that we have such experienced owners in our midst who can put us on the right track.

If you think coming here and trying to cram your opinion down our throats is a good approach to helping people, think again. If you can't be nice to other members (ESPECIALLY to our mods & respected owners) and give SOUND advice, then what's the point in posting, other than to stir up trouble?

I, for one, think this thread should continue - a thread like this really would have helped me when I was hedgie breeder shopping.


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## Immortalia (Jan 24, 2009)

The problem with it all is the matter of choice. 

Humans can chose whatever they want, they can risk what they chose to risk.

Our pets can't. This is why we have run into so many genetic problems that were created by man. In the wild, when left to their own, it boils down to Natural Selection. Those who are inadequate in living will be killed or have shortened life spans. But now, in a relatively closed environment, most of their natural predators are gone, so they have an increased life expectancy. So humans can do what they want, breed what they want, and not realize the future repercussions of what they are doing. Why do you think we have so many genetic deformaties? Like hip dysplasia in German Shephards, HYPP in Quarter Horses, the lack of a proper blood-brain barrier in collies, shephards etc etc that make them suseptable to ivermectin, etc etc. These were all created by man. And many of these are saddening to watch. People go "Oooooo that animal is pretty or winning something! I MUST breed it!!" and many people will flock to the same animals, which led to our lack of gene pool. 

I believe that a breeder who fully considers the repercussions of breeding, and actually do proper research are ok in my books. If they manage to track down the records of their rescue and the animal actually has good breeding, I have no problems with them being bred... properly. (Mind you, this is done more in the horse world more than anywhere else, just cause ALL of the good quality ones always have papers and if you're lucky, can be found floating in orbit. And also because mares are usually left intact). 
I do not condone a breeder breeding an animal with a known genetic defect, or even the possibility of having a genetic defect. I do believe it to be irresponsible. Going back to the horse HYPP, it CAN be tested, they KNOW what gene causes it, horses can be classified as positive(h/h), negative(n/n) or carrier(n/h), but people keep breeding them(If you want to know why, feel free to pm, as I believe it would be too OT). Now imagine a kid getting said animal who is positive, actually, even carriers can show signs and they are both walking time bombs. At any time, without warning, they will drop to the ground and seisure, which may or may not lead to death. Going back to hedgehogs, it's painful enough to lose a pet, but to have to watch them deteriorate with paralysis is horrifying.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

hanhan27 said:


> I personally think this thread was a good idea and can be super informative and helpful to potential hedgehog owners, so it should be cleaned up instead of locked. HHC doesn't believe in breeding animals who we know nothing about. End of story. Nancy worded her feelings strongly because she cares about hogs and their well being, not because she has a bad attitude or she is condescending. Nancy has been nothing but a huge help here at HHC and I think all of us should appreciate the fact that we have such experienced owners in our midst who can put us on the right track.
> 
> If you think coming here and trying to cram your opinion down our throats is a good approach to helping people, think again. If you can't be nice to other members (ESPECIALLY to our mods & respected owners) and give SOUND advice, then what's the point in posting, other than to stir up trouble?
> 
> I, for one, think this thread should continue - a thread like this really would have helped me when I was hedgie breeder shopping.


Can't say it better than this. I'm always rather amused when newer members insult or pick fights with older, respected members, both on here and on a chatroom I moderate. It rarely goes well for the newer person, and they usually end up disappearing because they've already created a bad first impression on the forum by fighting with people that everyone else already knows and likes (or most people, at least).

Also, just a comment on the analogy to the people having children thing....People are irresponsible when having children all the time. It's noting new. People have kids who can't afford them, people do drugs and drink while pregnant and it affects the child, people have kids and abuse them, so on and so forth. It's not a good thing. But it just shows that it doesn't matter whether it's people or animals. A responsible person thinks about their actions very carefully when it involves the life of someone or something else. I'm not saying that a human baby's life is of equal value as a baby hedgehog's life. For some people, maybe it is. For others, it's silly to make those things equivalent. But care should be taken when you have the power over any life other than your own, no matter how big or small.


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## JustOnePost (Dec 27, 2011)

While I haven't been here long I have had hedgehog for quiet a few years now so I do somewhat disagree with saying new members meaning that...

However I'm going to go ahead and call out the elephant in the room here and call Trolling by Pete, he is obviously trying to get a rise out of members here and going out of his way to use words which are not commonly used even if properly used in his posts.


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## NoBeardPete (Jan 24, 2012)

JustOnePost said:


> While I haven't been here long I have had hedgehog for quiet a few years now so I do somewhat disagree with saying new members meaning that...
> 
> However I'm going to go ahead and call out the elephant in the room here and call Trolling by Pete, he is obviously trying to get a rise out of members here and going out of his way to use words which are not commonly used even if properly used in his posts.


Did you really just say that I must be a troll because I'm (correctly) using some slightly sophisticated vocabulary? Wow.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

This thread is done.


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