# How do you know when it's time to let go ?



## Charlie's mommy (May 16, 2014)

Hi everyone..we just got back from the vet, they couldn't get anymore blood from Charlie. Her weight has gone down a lot. 252 a few weeks ago 198 Monday and today 187. This is with critical care and carnivore care plus her higher fat cat food. Nothing I do seems to be working. The vet said we can sedate her and do a bunch of tests and the quote she gave me was almost 500 dollars putting her bills in the thousands. And that doesn't include treatment. I don't want her last days to be poked with needles and have gross food shoved down her throat but I also don't want to give her up if she can recover. She still runs, kind of. Some days she wobbles when she walks but she still likes to play with toys and cuddle. My question is, how do you know when it's time to just stop? I knew I'd second guess myself. The vet didn't say anything about euthinization yet but at the same time I don't know if they would tell me they think it's time or just keep going with all sorts of tests for the money. Has anyone else had a hedgehog with liver issues? Do they recover? Thanks for any responses. No one really understands the devestation like a fellow hedgie owner.


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## Melanie G. (May 29, 2014)

I am so sorry. I've been wondering how you two were doing?
Were they able to determine if it is a tumour or liver disease? 
I haven't had experience with liver problems. I did have to make the decision to euthanize both Mason (due to wobbly hedgehog syndrome) and Molly (brain tumour). It was such a hard decision to make. Like you, I didn't have a problem spending the extra time to care for them.
With Mason it came to a point where I could tell he was no longer having a good quality of life. He wasn't able to walk very well and had to rely on me to feed him. He couldn't play (although he tried) and he was always happy to be fed. But one night it was like he just gave up. Just in the way he was acting I could see that he was no longer happy and he seemed confused as to why he couldn't move.
With Molly it just became unsafe. She needed to be monitored around the clock as she would fall over and not be able to get up. She fell into her water dish a couple times and I had to rescue her. It got to the point where she couldn't walk, so I took her in.
Watch for signs with Charlie. If she is still wanting to eat and able to get enjoyment out of life and she isn't in pain, then it would make sense to carry on. It is really hard to watch your hedgie deteriorate. 
Again, I am really sorry. I hope there is something that can be done. She has a good mama taking care of her. Stories like this break my heart- they are so sad.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Lily had liver issues, though we didn't really realize the specific problem until it got pretty bad. She spent a couple months very gradually decreasing on eating and running. I worried, but didn't really know where to go with it. I worked on coaxing her to eat different things, gave more insects, etc. We checked in December for mouth issues, I tried different kibbles, I tried soft food, and finally went to syringe-feeding occasionally. In January, I had to go on a family trip, though I was extremely reluctant to leave her, even more so because she was on meds. I came home to discovered she had continued to lose weight, despite eating decently for them. Shortly after, we thought she had some other issues going on (possible reproductive system problems). I left her at the vet so they could get a urine sample when she peed next. And we got new symptom - she had green urine. That pointed to problems with the liver, so we concentrated our efforts on that. She started getting a couple of medications towards helping her liver, and I had to start syringe-feeding her regularly throughout the day. She wasn't a fan of it and I could only get a few cc's down her at one time. She wasn't running either, and the antibiotics were giving her green, jelly-like, sticky poops. It was very obvious she didn't feel good at all.

Ten days later, we headed back in to the vet for a check up. The vet put her under and started palpitating her abdomen. Right away he noticed a large mass (and had me feel it a well). It wasn't there 10 days before - and that was a very bad sign. He told me that straight out. My options were to keep doing what we were doing until she seemed to be done; do an exploratory surgery to see if it was something that could be removed (and risk losing her on the surgery table, or having to euthanize her without getting to say goodbye); or euthanizing her that day. The vet let me have some time to think, but from the moment I got my options, I knew what we were doing. Obviously what we were doing wasn't helping. She was not happy, and she didn't feel good at all. I was also terrified that if I went ahead & took her home, I might not bring her back before she suffered more or died at home, in pain. I couldn't imagine not getting to say goodbye to if we lost her during surgery. I said my goodbyes to her then, and we let her go. Afterwards, the vet offered to check quickly & found that two-thirds of her liver was covered in tumors. I had already known I made the right decision, but knowing that helped a lot as well.

I can't tell you what to do in this situation. That's only for you to decide. I do know that sedating & medications can cause more problems for the liver, since it's the organ that deals with processing all of that stuff. So that might be something to keep in mind as you consider the situation and what options you have. You know her best, and you're the one who knows how she is feeling. She'll tell you with her behavior. I guess...the best way I can explain it is, they know when they're done, and they'll tell you. Consider how she does with taking medications, what effect they have on her body, and if she fights against syringing or not. If she still likes to eat and is still running & cuddling, those all sound like good signs to me. For me and Lily, I could see the difference in her. She was no longer running. She wouldn't eat (other than sometimes eating some favored treats like watermelon). She hated syringe-feeding, and the medicines were hard on her. She would cuddle with me...but it was because she was so lethargic and tired. 

It's normal to have doubts and worries and second guesses. I kind of expected to...but at the point Lily & I were at, I just knew it was the right decision, and it was almost a relief. It was so hard to let her go...but she wasn't hurting or feeling bad anymore. That was the most important thing. Like I said, it's your call. It's a lot to think about and it's very hard to face this decision. Just think of her, what her behavior is telling you, and consider what you already know. It may be worth going forward still - it may not. I know that's not too helpful! But I am sending you lots of hugs and good wishes while you try to figure things out. We'll all be here for you, whatever you decide. She has the best owner she could ask for, and I know she appreciates what a good mom she has. *hugs*

Edit: Thought it might be worth adding the quote that Nancy told me once, that ran through my head while I was saying goodbye to Lily - "Better a day too soon than an hour too late." It's hard to keep yourself from wanting to fight until the very last breath, but you have to keep in mind what's best for them. That's not to say that euthanasia right this second is the best solution. She could definitely still have time left. It's just something to keep in mind so you can gauge how she is each day and keep her from suffering more than needed.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm sorry Charlie's issue is liver related. If it's cancer, it's not going to get better. If it's an infection, perhaps with the right antibiotic she could. If it's Fatty Liver Disease, it too can sometimes be successfully treated. Do they know exactly what it is?

The fact that she is still running sometimes and playing, tells me she has not given up and isn't ready to go quite yet.

Yes, shoving food and meds into her can be perceived as cruel, but if this is something curable, getting food and meds into her is what will be needed to save her. Try different canned cat, kitten and baby foods to see if there is something she likes better. I've had good luck with Clini Care liquid diet. http://www.abbottanimalhealth.com/v...cts/nutritionals/clinicare-canine-feline.html Every hedgehog I've tried with it has liked it. When they are ill they don't feel like eating but not eating enough triggers FLD which makes them feel even worse. I usually give them A/D and for the sicker ones, Clini Care too. Although some hedgehogs love Carnivore Care, none of mine would ever touch it. So do some experimenting. Feed her frequently, as much as you can get into her each time.

When you get food into her mouth does she swallow or spit it out? If she's swallowing, keep it up. Do you think she dislikes the syringe or dislikes the food. I have found that most hedgehogs will catch on to being syringe and accept it. There are a some exceptions though and they will swallow the food once it's in their mouth, it's getting it in their mouth that's the problem. :roll:

Everyone second guesses themselves as to when it's time to let go and after we make the decision, then we beat ourselves up thinking we should have done this, or done that. Doesn't matter if it's your first hedgehog or your 100th. It's a very difficult decision especially if we don't have a 100% certain diagnoses and if hedgie still seems to be enjoying life.

From what you describe, I wouldn't put her through more tests, but I would continue to try and get as much food as possible into her, and continue with any meds the vet put her on. Write down the time and how much food she takes in each time you feed her.

Take it day by day.


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## Charlie's mommy (May 16, 2014)

Well we were going to do a poop test and send it out to the lab but she hadn't pooped enough at the time so we ended up going with bloodwork which she was good about she didn't need to be sedated cause she never balls up, so they only got a tiny bit of blood enough for one test which confirmed it was liver issues, so they basically think it's cancer or infection the second blood test was supposed to tell us what her blood cells were doing and if it was an infection but if that came back normal they said we could assume it's cancer but we could do biopsy if I wanted. But since they didn't get enough blood they asked me to come back so they could get more for the second test, but they couldn't get anymore and they said they don't want to keep poking her for no reason which I agreed with I'm happy they stopped. She doesn't refuse food sometimes she does lick it on her own but it's usually only if it's howies food or if it's her critical care mix on a spoon, syringing is pretty easy although she thinks I'm a moron and pretends to chew when the food hasn't even been near her sees the syringe and she's like no I'm just finishing lunch I'm good thanks. She tends to be better when she's eaten within a few hours no matter how much food she's had. Since being on critical care food she's been pooping ok and it doesn't look green anymore, so our plan is to talk to the vet and see what antibiotics she recommends and we will see how she does over the next few weeks. But I've decided I don't want any sedation or needles or anything like that anymore, so I'm gonna give her a chance to relax and I built her a big new cage which she seems to like, hated her old one and she started trying to climb and bang her head against the plastic so she spent a lot of time sleeping with my oldest dog mya in our bed. Thank you for the advice everyone, I feel a bit better now that I've seen her on her wheel. I'll keep you guys updated


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## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

Charlie's mommy, what you are going through breaks my heart, partly because I know that we all will face these decisions in due time. Thank you, Kelsey, for sharing Nancy's wisdom concerning "better a day early than an hour late". This makes so much sense, and will stay with me always. 

Just know that a lot of people out here are following your story, and we care deeply. Stay strong.


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## Melanie G. (May 29, 2014)

That sounds like a really good plan that you've come up with. Is it possible for them to do a poop test now or would that not really give you anymore information?
Lucy, Gretta, and I are thinking of you and Charlie and hoping for good news and will support you with whatever decision you may need to make in the next little while.


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## Charlie's mommy (May 16, 2014)

Thank you so much guys I really appreciate the support. I have a mini meltdown sometimes and people think I'm weird. Tried explaining that she's like family and you bond just like you would any other pet but people don't seem to understand. It's always nice coming on here and talking to people who really can appreciate how upsetting it is to watch your buddy get sicker, instead of asking what does it do? I called the vet today and we're going to do a fecal test cause it'll tell us what kind of bacteria could be in her. She's good today so far we've gotten 13 ml of critical care and 4ml of food, I'm going to keep doing feedings every hour and a half til about 3AM so I think that'll be a good amount and hopefully she starts putting weight on again. Thanks again everybody  whatever happens I am happy her ending will be with me and she has so many people who care about her! <3


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