# Diet Help



## Dayofhope (Jun 11, 2015)

Hey guys,

Quinne had her first vet appointment a couple weeks ago. Vet seemed knowledgable, and Quinne did well! The vet said she is the friendliest hedgehog she has handled. No mites or anything like that, tested with tape under the microscope. Bright eyes, beautiful teeth, healthy quills.

Vet's biggest caution was to make sure Quinne doesn't become overweight. I'm planning to get a scale for her soon. Right now, she weighs 350g (born March 27). What can I do to ensure she is kept at a healthy weight? I am currently feeding her Purina Beyond cat food, which is a bit high on fat, but the only decent food I can find in my area. She normally gets two canned mealworms a night, but my fridge/freezer is broken for the next two weeks so that is currently paused. I have fed her a bit of baby food as well, I forgot which flavor but I think it was a vegetable kind. I know I should be feeding her fruits/vegetables as well, and other meat sources, but I'm not sure on how much to feed and how often...

Side question, if I get this cage: 



 , would I need to have two CHE lamps to adequately heat it? My current CHE has a 10.5" lamp with a 150W bulb.

Quinne also licks her nose and scratches quite a bit. No discharge in the nose. After vet did tape mite tests, she didn't think the itching or the nose licking was an issue. Is the nose-licking just a "Quinne-quark", or should I still be a bit worried?

Here is another photo of my little girl.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Which purina one formula is she eating? 
Does she have a wheel?


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## Dayofhope (Jun 11, 2015)

This is what she is eating: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Purina-Beyond-White-Meat-Chicken-and-Whole-Oat-Meal-Recipe-Cat-Food-Bag-6-lbs/37297865

And yes, she has a CSBW that she uses regularly.


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## Dayofhope (Jun 11, 2015)

I tried to feed her pieces of apple last night, but she wouldn't take it.


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## writergirlmel (May 16, 2015)

You definitely need to find another food, even if you have to order it online or go a bit further away to get it. The protein and fat are both too high in that one. For most healthy weight hedgehogs, the _maximum_ fat percentage should be 15%, and I prefer to keep the fat percentage DMB (dry matter base) below that. For this food, the DMB* is 17%. For an overweight hedgehog, you should probably try to keep the fat around 12-13%.

Determining how much to feed requires a bit of trial and error, but it's not difficult. It's rare for hedgehogs to overeat, so your goal should be to offer enough so that there's just a little bit leftover when you change out the food each day. I offer Fitzgerald 16 grams of kibble, and he usually eats 10-14 -- most often right around the middle of that range. Start out offering plenty, and reduce it bit by bit until you're at the desired point. Do not restrict what you offer. Doing so can unnecessarily stress your hedgehog.

Kibble will most likely be the main staple of her diet. Mealworms are fairly high in fat, so a better insect choice might be crickets. (Avoid freeze dried, as with mealies.) If you can find them, I have heard that dubia roaches are also an excellent choice. Limit fruits due to their sugar content and focus instead on vegetables. Offer meats sparingly unless you're certain they are quite lean. All should be offered as treats, and treats are not necessary every night.

Fitzgerald has not shown much interest in any treats other than strawberries and mealworms. (He'll be trying crickets this week.) We do treats every other day in a particular order: mealies, strawberries, mealies, something new. It takes awhile for some hedgehogs to warm up to different treats.

Finally, I tried to follow the link you posted to answer your question about CHEs, but it didn't work. What is the square footage?

*DMB or dry matter base is a way of analyzing the true values of food by taking their moisture content into account. To calculate DMB, you subtract the moisture content from 100, and then divide the value you are calculating by that number. In this case, your food has a moisture content of 12%, so we divide the fat percentage of 15 by 88 to get the DMB fat percentage of 17%. This is described in more detail in the nutrition chapter of this book.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Another point is doing a mix of foods is ideal. One gets recalled, isn't in stock when you need it or the company makes a change in the food and now your hedgehog finds it repulsive. These are all examples of why a mix is a great option. When one food isn't available there is still something they are familiar with eating. 
It also gives them a variety in their diet staple. And allows for a bit of wiggle room on nutrition. One may be higher in fat but lower in protein, while a second food may be the opposite and together they reach ideal numbers.


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## Dayofhope (Jun 11, 2015)

Okay, I'll add another food. Which food would be best to mix with her current high-fat food? I have a Pet's Mart about an hour away I can shop from. Or would this food from Walmart be okay to mix it with? http://www.walmart.com/ip/Pure-Balance-Limited-Ingredient-Turkey-and-Sweet-Potato-Cat-Food-3-lbs/43546474?u1=icnl1gn0lo00bido0009i&oid=365179.1&wmlspartner=je6NUbpObpQ&sourceid=33184955880416751327&affillinktype=10&veh=aff#about


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

It seems the only place to locate this food is through walmart. No listing of ingredients or nutritional information. For me that's somewhat a major thing. I like to be able to do some comparison at home, and it's easier to compare if a change has been made to the food. 
According to the website real turkey is the first ingredient, turkey byproduct meal comes from real turkeys, so they could say it's real turkey either way.


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## Dayofhope (Jun 11, 2015)

Would mixing the Purina Beyond with this food be okay? http://bluebuffalo.com/natural-cat-food/blue-for-cats/dry-food/blue-healthy-growth-kitten-chicken-and-brown-rice-recipe/

Also, does anyone have any idea regarding the question of if I would need two CHE lamps to heat that cage?

Thank you!


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## writergirlmel (May 16, 2015)

How many CHEs you need and what wattage is dependent on the size of your cage, how cool the room it's in generally is, etc. I tried the link you included, but Amazon just keeps telling me it's not a functioning cage. (I mentioned that in a previous response and asked for the dimensions.) If you post the dimensions, I can give my opinion on it. For reference, my hutch is 2'Dx4'Lx4'H with the 2 150w CHEs (10" domes) in the heat/light deck 3' above the hutch floor. I need two because of the cage length. I need the wattage because they're a bit too high. (I'm changing that in the redesign.)

And the short answer on that mix is that your protein and fat would both still be too high. You started with a food that was high in both of those, so you have to mix it with a food that is _lower_ in those to get a good average.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

When doing a mix it's much easier to use foods that are individually in the ideal nutrition range. 

If I were in your situation, I would gradually introduce a food that had the ideal range of protein(28%-35%), fat(10%-15%) and fiber should be as high as you can get. Then add another food gradually into the mix. Then another food. Each food would be 1/4 of the food mix. Then gradually remove the purina.


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## Dayofhope (Jun 11, 2015)

Sorry! I thought I posted dimensions earlier, but evidently not. The dimensions are: 47 x 24 x 14 inches. I think it's possible the room might get cold in the winter, but it's a new place so I'm not sure on that. 

Okay. I'm glad I hadn't opened the food, then. What food is known to be lower in fat/protein?


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/23042-recommended-foods-list.html

Personally, for the CHE I'd go with 2 on one thermostat.


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## writergirlmel (May 16, 2015)

twobytwopets said:


> Personally, for the CHE I'd go with 2 on one thermostat.


I agree. Two CHEs, one thermostat.


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## Dayofhope (Jun 11, 2015)

Alright, I will get two CHEs if I get that cage. Really glad I got the thermostat that lets you plug two in, haha; I almost didn't.

I'm guessing if it's "kitten" food, it will be too high in fat or protein, correct? I'll write down the brands and the calculation process to find out if it's a good food and take that with me to the pet store. 

Another side question, sorry: Where did you get your digital thermometer? I have one that isn't digital, but I'm having the worst luck at finding a digital one. Is Amazon the best option, or does some store I haven't thought of carry them / what aisle?


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## writergirlmel (May 16, 2015)

I bought my digital thermometer in the reptile section at Petco -- simply because I was there and knew I'd need one. Amazon sells several options, as well.


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## twobytwopets (Feb 2, 2014)

Generally kitten food has a higher protein in order to meet a higher demand for protein in their growing body.

Do you have a tractor supply near you? They carry some good foods.


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## Dayofhope (Jun 11, 2015)

I bought Natural Balance Original Ultra® Whole Body Health® Chicken, Chicken Meal, Duck Meal Dry Dog Formula food.

http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/pr...cken,+Chicken+Meal,+Duck+Meal+Dry+Dog+Formula

Is that good for my mix?

Also found an electric thermometer at Target.  As well as a $2 porcelain "dip bowl" for a water dish with a squarer bottom in hopes of tipping the water less!


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## writergirlmel (May 16, 2015)

It depends on what you're mixing it with. If all your foods fall into the acceptable ranges for protein and fat, your mix will fall into that range.

Here's what you need to do...

1. Read the stickies in the nutrition section. Beginner's Guide to Hedgehog Nutrition and Recommended Foods List, understanding that the recommended foods list isn't comprehensive. It's only a starting point. Many other foods may fall within acceptable protein & fat ranges. _You just have to calculate the values._

2. Do some footwork. See what's available in stores near you and what you can easily order online.

3. Decide what your goals are for your hedgehog's diet. I like 4 foods of different brands and different protein sources because I feel like that's the best way to cover all nutritional bases and protect against the food strikes that can happen if a food is suddenly unavailable or altered. You may decide you want to avoid certain ingredients, feed only limited ingredient foods, stick with a single protein source or any number of other things. _It's your decision as long as the diet you choose meets the basic known requirements for protein & fat and avoids ingredients known to be dangerous._

4. Crunch the numbers. It took me two days to calculate the DMB values for fat and protein in all the foods I would consider that were easily available to me. From there, I narrowed my list and made my final choices. (Note: To calculate the DMB value, you subtract the moisture content from 100. Then you divide the value by that number. So, for a food with 23% protein & 10% moisture: 23/90=25.5% protein DMB.)

The bottom line here is that we really can't make those decisions for you. You now have all the information to make the choices on your own: what numbers to shoot for, how to calculate it, step-by-step instructions for getting through it. There aren't any real shortcuts. Yes, you can choose foods, and we can tell you what our opinions are -- on a specific mix of specific foods when we're given all the information. But your criteria may not be the same as ours, and you have to be able to do the homework yourself and make your own choice.


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