# Fattening up the runt of the litter



## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

I have a litter of 4 5 week old hoglets, next week they will be moving into the nursery. Anyway the one boy, the runt, I plan on keeping for breeding (Theodore). He is very small, half the size of his sisters. Next week he will be in his own cage, and I will be able to see his eating patterns. Is there a really fatty food I can feed him? He will hopefully be getting his first "date" with Eleanor at the end of October, I just don't wont him to be too small. I don't want her to be able to hurt him, or him not be able to provide his whole potential. When ever I check on him he is usually sleeping. I take him out for about 45 minutes each night to give him some wet kitten food and mealies. I want him to be as healthy as possible. He has beautiful facial markings (two thin badger striped going up his forehead with full mask) and a set of dark grey quills. Theodore's front paw is completely pink, and the other front one appears to be "dip dyed" it has a line dividing the pink from brown. I want him to pass down his beautiful colors and personality, but only if he is healthy.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

If he's only 5 weeks old now he will only be 10 weeks old at the end of October. You're planning to breed him at that young of an age?


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Ten weeks old is too young to breed and have reliable results. Although boys can impregnate a female as early as 6 week old, usually they are not purposely bred until 4 months because their fertility can be hit and miss prior to this age.

Most breeders do not breed the runts. Responsible breeders choose the best and healthiest hedgehogs to breed and breed for health first above colour. 

I think you need to do some research on responsible breeding.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

Nancy said:


> Ten weeks old is too young to breed and have reliable results. Although boys can impregnate a female as early as 6 week old, usually they are not purposely bred until 4 months because their fertility can be hit and miss prior to this age.


Thank you guys for responding! I would usually wait until they are round 20 weeks. But i am beyond excited to see the colors from Eleanor because this is her first breed. But back on the food is there a fatty one i can feed him? He appears to be very health, just on the small side. I really needed the refresh on breeding age for a boy, thanks.

A little off this topic, but if i breed Eleanor, a white face reverse pinto, with my Finn who is a light cinacot with black eyes. Will i get a confetti? I asked another popular breeder if she had a photo of a confetti, and she said it was very rare. I've never seen on so if someone could share a photo i would appreciate it.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Confetti is not a recognized colour. It's just a made up name.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

Nancy said:


> Confetti is not a recognized colour. It's just a made up name.


What would be the proper term for a hoglet with more than one "pinto" color? If Elle has dark grey, and Finn cinacot wouldn't the babies have more than one color pattern on the quills?


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## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

nikki said:


> You can't predict the colour of the babies from the colour of the parents. You would have to know the colours of their ancestors for 4-5 generations to be able to have even a chance of predicting the colours.


The above was a post from Nikki in a past thread. I don't know anything about breeding for color but I just wanted to relay the info for you. So I guess it's really "up in the air" on what color the babies will be if you breed those two hogs.
You should be able to look at the pedigrees and get a better idea. They should have color and eye color for every hog on the pedigree, atleast mine do.

As far as "fatty" foods for the runt. You don't really want to give him fatty foods, you want him to gain healthy weight. You could get a quality kitten food to mix in. They tend to have a higher fat percentage, maybe get one around 20%. Babies can use the extra fat for a few months but you want to make sure it's a good quality kitten kibble and of course you could give him some meal worms a couple times a week too.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

All the breeders I've very contacted has told me that they wont give me the pedigrees, until I get USDA


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

That makes no sense. I gave pedigrees with all my babies and every responsible breeder I know does the same thing. So you're breeding hedgehogs that you have no pedigrees on?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I agree, I've heard a lot that color prediction is pretty difficult, so you might not really know what to expect. But I also wanted to mention that no, you're not going to get a hedgehog with two different colors. As far as I know, a hedgehog is only ever one color pattern (though they can be pinto, and then have white quills as well). So you won't have a hog with both grey quills and cinnamon quills, or anything like that. I suppose there might be possible exceptions, but I would guess they're very, very rare, and more likely from quill staining or something like that. 

One more note about color - his color & markings could very well change at this point. He won't have his final adult color until after his 9-week quilling. So you might want to hold off on your color research & predictions for litters until you know what his final color will be. 

Also a comment on the size thing - keep in mind that breeding small hedgehogs isn't always a good thing, regardless of health status. While the sizes of our US hedgehogs have gotten smaller & smaller over time, from what I've read, and many people like that because they think they're cuter, etc., that's not necessarily healthy. For example, look at "teacup" animals - dogs, pigs, etc. that have been bred specifically to be small. Oftentimes they have a lot of health issues because they're not meant to be that small. They're more fragile, they can have issues caused by their size, and so on. He might seem pretty healthy, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his genes should be passed on. With as small as he is compared to his sisters, he doesn't sound like a good breeding candidate to me (though I do admit to having no breeding experience). 

And I agree with Ellisrks about food. Keep an eye on his body shape in addition to his total body size too, though. If he's just a small-bodied hedgehog, but not a runner-type body, food that's high in fat could easily make him overweight. But while he's still growing & since he's a bit behind, a kitten food would probably be a good idea for him.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm checking out your website and I'm curious. How old is Eleanor? You mention on your site that you don't plan to breed her until December because she's very young. But you say here that you want to breed them at the end of October. Is she going to be at the right age for a litter with either of those dates? Keep in mind that females have a much more specific window for the right time for a first breeding than males do.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

BrooklynNoel said:


> All the breeders I've very contacted has told me that they wont give me the pedigrees, until I get USDA


which is very understand able and I completely agree. She did however give me a family tree "break down".

Eleanor
parents:

mother: albino
her mother: revere pinto split face
her mother: grey
her mother: brown pinto

father: grey whiteface 
his father: grey snowflake
his father: platinum 
his father: reverse pinto

Finn
parents:

mother: cinnamon
her mother: apricot
her mother: brown
her mother: brown

father: brown
his father: cinnamon
his father: brown
his father: apricot

I hope the set up kind of understandable. Sorry for confusion. Also from what I understand they have very lean lines


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

The pedigree isn't necessary for the color lines. You need the pedigree so you can check with the registry and look for any genetic problems in the bloodlines. Hedgehogs should not be bred unless you have their pedigree to check for problems they could pass on to their offspring. The most notable one is WHS - Wobbly Hedgehog Syndrome. Responsible, ethical breeders are trying their best to prevent this disease from becoming more common by checking for it in the backgrounds of their breeding hedgehogs. If any hedgehog has WHS in their background, they shouldn't be bred since it can skip generations. If you don't have the pedigrees and haven't specifically checked your hedgehogs' backgrounds for WHS and other genetic problems, you should not be breeding them. You can't guarantee you're breeding healthy babies.

Edit: If the breeders who sold you your hedgehogs did so knowing you were planning to breed them & still didn't give you their pedigrees, then they're also irresponsible breeders. A responsible breeder knows the necessity of checking pedigrees for genetic diseases and wouldn't withhold a pedigree.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

How can you check for WHS in their lineage if you don't have a copy of the pedigree? A breeder could tell you anything but if you have the pedigree you can check with the IHR to make sure there isn't WHS in their background.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

I was looking at your website and wondering what kind of carrier you have for people to take their babies home in? You talked about "drilled lids"? Hedgehogs, and any animal actually, should only be transported in a hard sided pet carrier that can be seat belted into the vehicle and I don't understand why you would be drilling holes in them?

Also the hedgehogs you're calling Salt and Pepper are just greys. Salt and Peppers are the rarest of all hedgehog colours and there are very very few in the US.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Also, I just want to make it clear, Brooklyn - it's not that we have a problem with you breeding, and we're not trying to attack you. We don't mind breeders, breeders are fine! And we could use more experienced breeders on the forum to help give advice to those who may find themselves with an accidental litter or with other issues. But it's very important to breed responsibly and ethically, and those are the kinds of breeders we need. That means having pedigrees, making sure you're breeding genetically sound, healthy pets, and having up-to-date, accurate information on your website. While identifying colors isn't everyone's strong point, more research should probably be done for some things before you try to post predictions or expectations of litter colors on the site. The health & temperament of the babies are far more important than the colors. 

I just want to make sure you know we're not trying to run you off or anything. We'd love to have you stay around, we just want to know if you're willing to be called out on things that may not be correct, and if you're willing to fix some of the issues so that you can be a responsible breeder that would be a benefit to the hedgehog community. You do have some great things on your website, such as requiring the person buying the hedgehog to be 18, having recipients of gift hedgehogs be present to pick up the pet, etc. 

Another thing that I'm not really sure about, but perhaps one of the experienced breeders could clarify - it might be a good idea to check into whether you need to have your USDA license before you start breeding your two new girls (assuming you do, since the pedigree thing is in the air). I'm not sure whether you need to have the license before you actually have three breeding females, or if you're able to pursue the license without any issues even after having bred the females. It could be something that's not a concern! I'm not sure, just thought I'd mention it.


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## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

I don't think anyone mentioned it but you need a pedigree to make sure your not breeding hogs that are related to each other also.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

nikki said:


> Also the hedgehogs you're calling Salt and Pepper are just greys. Salt and Peppers are the rarest of all hedgehog colours and there are very very few in the US.


 I know I just haven't updated any other pages except for the "available babies" page! I've been meaning to do that. I'll get on it tonight. I'm really lazy when I comes to updating pages, I've learned lots of information in he last year, that I should have know before I ever started :-?.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

Lilysmommy said:


> Also, I just want to make it clear, Brooklyn - it's not that we have a problem with you breeding, and we're not trying to attack you. We don't mind breeders, breeders are fine! And we could use more experienced breeders on the forum to help give advice to those who may find themselves with an accidental litter or with other issues. But it's very important to breed responsibly and ethically, and those are the kinds of breeders we need. That means having pedigrees, making sure you're breeding genetically sound, healthy pets, and having up-to-date, accurate information on your website. While identifying colors isn't everyone's strong point, more research should probably be done for some things before you try to post predictions or expectations of litter colors on the site. The health & temperament of the babies are far more important than the colors.
> 
> I just want to make sure you know we're not trying to run you off or anything. We'd love to have you stay around, we just want to know if you're willing to be called out on things that may not be correct, and if you're willing to fix some of the issues so that you can be a responsible breeder that would be a benefit to the hedgehog community. You do have some great things on your website, such as requiring the person buying the hedgehog to be 18, having recipients of gift hedgehogs be present to pick up the pet, etc.
> 
> Another thing that I'm not really sure about, but perhaps one of the experienced breeders could clarify - it might be a good idea to check into whether you need to have your USDA license before you start breeding your two new girls (assuming you do, since the pedigree thing is in the air). I'm not sure whether you need to have the license before you actually have three breeding females, or if you're able to pursue the license without any issues even after having bred the females. It could be something that's not a concern! I'm not sure, just thought I'd mention it.


 I am trying to be a responsible breeder, and I would like to become one with experience and that other people can look to me for advice. I spoke to Sharron Orth of dream flower meadows and she gave me lots of amazing tips and she told me a lot of information. I've only been breeding from august 2013 so I am still gathering all this information, i should have know from the start. I remember her sating "we all have to start somewhere"

I currently have 4 girls, but two are too young to breed (elle and Amelia). My old lady sprinkles is retiring because this November she will be having her 3 rd birthday. And Rosie, my albino lady cannot get pregnant, that is why she is available. Because 3 girls of breeding age is the limit I wont be getting any more girls. I would love to become USDA licensed but I am not 18 yet.

I know health and temperament are the highest things on the list, but colors are so much fun! I love seeing what colors I can get.

As far as linage goes, Peek a Boo Hogetry is here I got Eleanor and Amelia from and she said Amelia came from a rather clean, healthy line. Eleanor how ever had some maui (past generations who have had WHS). From my understandings it is very slim that she will pass it down.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

You shouldn't be breeding any hedgehog that has any WHS in its lineage. Because it can skip many generations you can't be sure that your babies will never have it. The fact that you know and are still breeding her isn't good. Responsible breeders don't breed any hedgehogs that have any WHS in their lineage. Even a slim chance of passing it on its to much.


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## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

*USDA considers any animals that have not been spayed (unaltered) to be "breeding animals", whether they are currently being used for breeding purposes or not. Some breeders think they can bypass USDA licensing by breeding no more than 3 of their females at a time, but USDA does not agree with this interpretation and considers such operations to be in violation of Federal law. 

Above I just wanted to post some information for you about having more than three females in your house.
I have looked into this myself. If you have more than three females and can't prove they are spayed, regardless of thier age it's braking the law.

I just wanted to pass on the information.

Edit: I forgot to ask did you any of your hogs from Dreamflowermedows meadows?


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## ellisrks01 (Mar 25, 2014)

ellisrks01 said:


> regardless of thier age it's braking the law


I would like to correct part of my post so I don't pass on any false information. Age does matter.


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## gracefulchaos01 (Mar 19, 2014)

ellisrks01 said:


> *USDA considers any animals that have not been spayed (unaltered) to be "breeding animals",


Wow, it's a good thing Sebastian had only the one girl... geez...


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Without a clean lineage, these hedgehogs should not be bred. 

The one with WHS back in her lines should especially not ever be bred. There are some breeders in the past who have said a WHS line can be "bred out", but that is BS. A carrier can produce carriers who can produce carriers and on and on. Without genetic testing there is no way to know who is or isn't carrying it. It's like Russian Roulette. 

If the breeders you bought the hedgehogs from knew you were planning to breed they should have given you the lineage before you bought them so you could check out the lineage with the registry. To hold the lineage back until you become USDA is ridiculous. If they didn't want you breeding, they should not have sold you the hedgehog to begin with. Makes me question if there even is a lineage. 

It is difficult when first starting out as a breeder but you should focus on what's important which is health and temperament. Once you gain some breeding experience and knowledge, then you can start playing with colours. 

Everyone makes mistakes when starting out, but it's how quickly we learn from and correct our mistakes that says what type of person and breeder we will be.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

ellisrks01 said:


> *USDA considers any animals that have not been spayed (unaltered) to be "breeding animals", whether they are currently being used for breeding purposes or not. Some breeders think they can bypass USDA licensing by breeding no more than 3 of their females at a time, but USDA does not agree with this interpretation and considers such operations to be in violation of Federal law.
> 
> Above I just wanted to post some information for you about having more than three females in your house.
> I have looked into this myself. If you have more than three females and can't prove they are spayed, regardless of thier age it's braking the law.
> ...


 I understand the laws, I am trying to remove Rosie asap. Its taking a little longer than anticipated. And I appreciate you informing me. I didn't purchase any animals from Dreamflowermeadows, I contacted her because I was planning to, but I didn't go threw the area as expected so I couldn't purchase any babies.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

Nancy said:


> Without a clean lineage, these hedgehogs should not be bred.
> 
> The one with WHS back in her lines should especially not ever be bred. There are some breeders in the past who have said a WHS line can be "bred out", but that is BS. A carrier can produce carriers who can produce carriers and on and on. Without genetic testing there is no way to know who is or isn't carrying it. It's like Russian Roulette.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the rely! I got them from a breeder who is now selling out their herd due to family issues. My original intention for them was breeding them, she was aware of that. And when we met up for the handoff, she told me "the reverse pinto has Maui in her lines". My sister and I had just driven over 2 hours to get these girls, then she tells me this. At first I thought maybe she was trying to "scare me off" but after thinking, I still don't know. I was already holding them, the attachment had begun. I could just give them back and say "i don't want them anymore!". I was already in love with elle and 'melia. After I got them I emailed her to make sure what she told me was correct, and she said it was.

Should I get of my Eleanor? Amelia and Eleanor have been together from 2 weeks old from my understandings. Amelia's mom had rejected her and she was places with Eleanor. They are bonded. If I got rid of one i'd have to do it with the other. Finding a home for an adult is hard enough, but two.

I would love to get some babies from Dream Flower Meadows because she agrees to give me their linage as long as I do it "safety" which I fully agree with. I also agree with why some breeders don't hand out pedigrees. If they are bred, therefore given bad linage, it flags both parties.

Because I live about 800 miles from north Carolina I cannot drive to get hoglets from dream flower meadows. I would have to pay for shipping. Shipping is an addition fee and because elle and Amelia were my only breeding girls I have no other females to breed, therefore no profits. Because I am a minor I cannot get a job, the hedgehogs are my only income. Which most of it goes back into the hogs.

I just don't know what to do. I'd like to keep breeding, breeding HEALTHY babies. The very most I can get for Eleanor and Amelia is $350, and that will be very hard to find a good home for that. Then my current litter I will only have about $150 ish left over. So I only have $500 for two girls, and shipping.

Also my boys, they don't have pedigrees, but I'm in love with my Finn and could never trade him. My other boy, Theodore I am not yet totally attached to him. My friend ella is planning on getting a baby from me, maybe she can buy him so I can get a healthy boy. If I get $275 like I would like for him we would tip $700 for the new stock. (I would have to buy another cage, for the new boy)

ADVICE HEAVILY NEEDED


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

If I was you I would keep the hedgehogs I have and that I am attached too and not breed them, just keep them as pets. This will give You more experience with hedgehogs as they age and it will also give you time to be better set financially to purchase clean lines for breeding.

Breeding hedgehogs for income isn't a very practical idea, all it would take is one girl to need a c-section and you would be spending more than you could make, and wouldn't have any babies to help offset the cost. Believe me, I breed hedgehogs for quite a few years and spent a lot more on them than what I could ever make. Ask any responsible breeder and they will tell you the same thing. You can make a lot more with a part time job than you ever will breeding hedgehogs.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

nikki said:


> If I was you I would keep the hedgehogs I have and that I am attached too and not breed them, just keep them as pets. This will give You more experience with hedgehogs as they age and it will also give you time to be better set financially to purchase clean lines for breeding.
> 
> Breeding hedgehogs for income isn't a very practical idea, all it would take is one girl to need a c-section and you would be spending more than you could make, and wouldn't have any babies to help offset the cost. Believe me, I breed hedgehogs for quite a few years and spent a lot more on them than what I could ever make. Ask any responsible breeder and they will tell you the same thing. You can make a lot more with a part time job than you ever will breeding hedgehogs.


I understand that hogs are very costly, I currently have a rather large savings account, indented for a car, but if I had to I would defiantly use it on a hedgehog. The only reason I have the desire to get rid of them is so I can bring in new girls, and a boy. Though I do love them I also love having babies! Who ever took them home would keep very close ties with me!


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

nikki said:


> If I was you I would keep the hedgehogs I have and that I am attached too and not breed them, just keep them as pets. This will give You more experience with hedgehogs as they age and it will also give you time to be better set financially to purchase clean lines for breeding.
> 
> Breeding hedgehogs for income isn't a very practical idea, all it would take is one girl to need a c-section and you would be spending more than you could make, and wouldn't have any babies to help offset the cost. Believe me, I breed hedgehogs for quite a few years and spent a lot more on them than what I could ever make. Ask any responsible breeder and they will tell you the same thing. You can make a lot more with a part time job than you ever will breeding hedgehogs.


I understand hedgehogs can be very costly. I have a large savings, intended for a car, but I would defiantly use it for the hogs if I had to. I love my girls dearly but I want to expand and get healthy stock, and it do that I have to get rid of them. Who ever took them home, would keep _very_ close ties with me.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

To be honest...I'm not sure why you're so set on breeding right now? You're still pretty young, and you have plenty of time ahead of you. Yes, babies are very cute. But I don't see why you absolutely need to be breeding right now. As Nikki said, breeding any animal isn't a dependable source of income. You need to spend plenty of money on them, and to do it properly is even more expensive - such as travelling or paying for shipping to get quality breeding stock that has healthy lines. The breeders I know have driven for several days to pick up breeding hedgehogs from across the country. While that might not be necessary for everyone who wants to breed, you do have to expect to pay quite a bit if you want breeding quality hedgehogs.

My advice, though I'm not a breeder? Keep your current hedgehogs. I think you owe it to them to provide them with a safe, caring home for the rest of their lives. Having numerous different hedgehogs gives you plenty of different personalities and quirks to learn about. As they get older and possibly have health issues come up, you'll learn more about other aspects of care and your large savings can instead be spent on giving them the best veterinary care you can, rather than paying for new breeding stock right now, or having to pay $1000 for a c-section when you could still possibly lose the mom. The experience you'll gain with keeping and caring for your current hedgies without trying to get rid of them will make you a better breeder in the future, and more able to advise and answer questions from your customers. 

Like I said...you're young. Babies are adorable. But you have plenty of time to get into breeding later on when you have a steady job to be able to support the hobby, and not be depending on the sales of babies to cover hedgehog costs. I'm glad that you want to responsibly breed, that's a really great thing. But it honestly doesn't sound like you're in a position to do so right now, and your current hedgehogs should not be bred again if you're going to be a responsible owner and breeder. I know it's disappointing to have to wait to do things you want to do. I'd love to have a hedgehog again right now. But I can't afford one, nor do I have the time. I'm practically counting down the days until next year when I move out, so I can see if I'll have the money available then. But it just depends, and I wouldn't be a responsible owner if I got one before I could properly provide for him or her.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

Getting set up to breed responsibly is expensive and can take numerous healthy litters to recoup your expenses. It's all a gamble and money from breeding is never anything we can count on. If all goes well, yes we can make money, but all it takes is one huge vet bill and there goes all the profits for the next many litters. 

Having to retire or not breed hedgehogs we have bought for that purpose happens. WHS pops up in a line and you have to retire it. The girl you buy may not be a good mom and cannibalizes her litters. Or the girl needs an emergency c-section and spay, or dies. For a large scale breeder, having to retire some doesn't have the same effect as it does on a small breeder. 

I see you are in Ohio. Have you considered buying from Gail Dick at Millermeade Farms? Not knowing distances in the US, but I'm sure she would be closer to you than Shannon.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

Lilysmommy said:


> To be honest...I'm not sure why you're so set on breeding right now? You're still pretty young, and you have plenty of time ahead of you.
> My advice, though I'm not a breeder? Keep your current hedgehogs. I think you owe it to them to provide them with a safe, caring home for the rest of their lives. Having numerous different hedgehogs gives you plenty of different personalities and quirks to learn about. As they get older and possibly have health issues come up, you'll learn more about other aspects of care and your large savings can instead be spent on giving them the best veterinary care you can, rather than paying for new breeding stock right now, or having to pay $1000 for a c-section when you could still possibly lose the mom. The experience you'll gain with keeping and caring for your current hedgies without trying to get rid of them will make you a better breeder in the future, and more able to advise and answer questions from your customers.
> 
> Like I said...you're young. Babies are adorable. But you have plenty of time to get into breeding later on when you have a steady job to be able to support the hobby, and not be depending on the sales of babies to cover hedgehog costs. I'm glad that you want to responsibly breed, that's a really great thing. But it honestly doesn't sound like you're in a position to do so right now, and your current hedgehogs should not be bred again if you're going to be a responsible owner and breeder. I know it's disappointing to have to wait to do things you want to do. I'd love to have a hedgehog again right now. But I can't afford one, nor do I have the time. I'm practically counting down the days until next year when I move out, so I can see if I'll have the money available then. But it just depends, and I wouldn't be a responsible owner if I got one before I could properly provide for him or her.


The hogs aren't my only income. I have an etsy shop that I am working on publishing and opening. All the babies I sell, the owners keep very close ties with me and are always sending me pictures and sometimes we even meet up so I can see how their baby is.

I love being a breeder, I love playing with all the hedgehogs. I love being by them. I want to be responsible. Would it be responsible if I got a pedigree boy, and got Amelia's pedigree? I could likely get it from the breeder, as she isn't breeding any more.

I spoil them, they are definitely well taken care of. I have already begun getting them Christmas gifts :smile: I plan on ordering some cuddle cups from your shop, if all goes well. They don't go without, and all the babies that are born at So Many Quills are beyond friendly and love people.

I do have some questions about USDA, I've asked around and I think it'd be q great thing if I got licensed.


could I get the license in my parents name?
What are some of the requirements to become licensed?
How long is the process?
Thank you for all the advice, I hope I don't sound too misinformed.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

Nancy said:


> I see you are in Ohio. Have you considered buying from Gail Dick at Millermeade Farms? Not knowing distances in the US, but I'm sure she would be closer to you than Shannon.


She is about 4 1/2 hours from me, which is way more doable than 10 hours. Nancy what are your thoughts on selling Eleanor and Amelia, to replace them with clean lines?


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## gracefulchaos01 (Mar 19, 2014)

Gail is awesome and might well have a willingness to sell you solid breeding stock with pedigrees. As for your present girls, I'm not sure I would necessarily sell them, but rather retire them early from breeding and allow them to remain as well loved pets.
They are lovely little girls.


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## Teddi4211 (Apr 30, 2014)

I personally wouldn't sell them. Just because they don't have a clean line doesn't mean they cannot be wonderful pets. Rescues don't have a clean line, but they are as good a hedgehog for being a pet. You would get experience, as said, from owning hedgehogs before continuing to breed. Also I would agree you sound eager to breed, but things can happen. Something like WHS in a line of one of our breeders (such as Eleanor) means she must be retired, but it doesn't mean she has to be replaced. If something like this happened with your replacements, would you get rid of them too? Even if you have close homes for them, how many people are willing to keep getting hedgehogs. I don't want to sound rude, but you seem like someone who is trying to learn (a really great thing) but is also wanting cute little hedgehogs running around without thinking about the possibilities of them getting eaten or the mother dying.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

gracefulchaos01 said:


> As for your present girls, I'm not sure I would necessarily sell them, but rather retire them early from breeding and allow them to remain as well loved pets.
> They are lovely little girls.


 I would love to do that but any girl of breeding age is considered to be a breeder. I wouldn't be able to get any new girls.


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## gracefulchaos01 (Mar 19, 2014)

I would think that if you could provide that they aren't breeding quality, which I believe you can, that that wouldn't be an issue. I have 2 girls and 4 boys. One more girl through a rehome or purchase and by the rules previously stated, I would be considered a breeder. What I actually am is a hedgehog hoarder, lol. They are all well loved and pampered pets. But I don't have the emotional constitution to breed.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

Teddi4211 said:


> I don't want to sound rude, but you seem like someone who is trying to learn (a really great thing) but is also wanting cute little hedgehogs running around without thinking about the possibilities of them getting eaten or the mother dying.


I have had a mother (sprinkles) reject a hoglet and I hand fed it for about 3 days, it didn't make it. It was the very first litter we ever had. It didn't scare me off, I wanted to have more hedgehogs. And yes I have an extreme wanting to keep breeding. I am always frightened that we may have issues when breeding. I've had many hurdles and loops, but with each one im learning more about being a breeder.


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

gracefulchaos01 said:


> I would think that if you could provide that they aren't breeding quality, which I believe you can, that that wouldn't be an issue. I have 2 girls and 4 boys. One more girl through a rehome or purchase and by the rules previously stated, I would be considered a breeder. What I actually am is a hedgehog hoarder, lol. They are all well loved and pampered pets. But I don't have the emotional constitution to breed.


I cannot prove anything as I have no pedigrees. But if I take them off my website, they aren't breeders :wink:


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

Its great that you are so bonded to your hedgehogs, but that brings another question. Could you handle your beloved hedgehog dying because you bred her or tried to use him for breeding? Believe me it happens more than people think and then you have to deal with the fact that they are dead because of something you chose to do, not something they chose. One other thing is you say you're a minor so I'm assuming you don't drive yet? Are your parents willing to be woken up in the middle of the night because someone is in labour and needs an emergency c-section? or the female decide to attack the male you have her with for breeding? Because hedgehogs are nocturnal most of these things happen during the night.


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## Teddi4211 (Apr 30, 2014)

Can I ask why you're so set on breeding right now? Just curious.


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## CoffeeKat (Jan 15, 2014)

If you are determined to breed hedgehogs as a business, I suggest that you make your webpage a little more professional. Perhaps you could ask your English teacher to go through it and help correct the mistakes in grammar, sentence structure, spelling, punctuation and syntax. I'm not saying this to be mean, but many people judge a business by the professionalism shown in communication. It's all about the perception of attention to detail (or lack thereof). 

Another area of professionalism is referring to an accidental litter....professional breeders don't have accidental litters, or if they do, they do not announce this sloppiness on their webpage. 

And finally, claiming that your babies "love people" is misleading. Hedgehogs may love specific people, but they do not love people in general. New owners already have misconceptions about what to expect from hedgehog behavior, and claiming that their new baby is "beyond friendly and loves people" is setting them up for failure.

Again, I am not trying to be harsh or judgemental, and I'm sorry if it comes off that way. I admire your willingness to learn and take constructive criticism.


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## Nancy (Aug 22, 2008)

BrooklynNoel said:


> She is about 4 1/2 hours from me, which is way more doable than 10 hours. Nancy what are your thoughts on selling Eleanor and Amelia, to replace them with clean lines?


If you are determined to breed at this point in time, and if you want to be responsible about it, you really don't have much choice other than to sell your current hedgehogs. USDA only allows 3 females unless you are licensed.

My thoughts would be, wait until you are 18 and can become USDA approved. That way you can keep the hedgehogs you are so attached to, and you will then be able to start out properly with some good lines.


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## MomLady (Aug 14, 2010)

How long have you had hedgehogs as pets?

Have you had any for their whole lives? I would not trust a breeder until they have had experience in keeping a hedgehog through a whole life cycle. I would want to be able to reference my breeder anytime during my hedgie's lifetime. (And I can!)


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## BrooklynNoel (Jun 15, 2014)

nikki said:


> Its great that you are so bonded to your hedgehogs, but that brings another question. Could you handle your beloved hedgehog dying because you bred her or tried to use him for breeding? Believe me it happens more than people think and then you have to deal with the fact that they are dead because of something you chose to do, not something they chose. One other thing is you say you're a minor so I'm assuming you don't drive yet? Are your parents willing to be woken up in the middle of the night because someone is in labour and needs an emergency c-section? or the female decide to attack the male you have her with for breeding? Because hedgehogs are nocturnal most of these things happen during the night.


 I have tired prepared myself for the terrible possibility. I've lost babies before and I just lose it, but I've bettered my self. I now know these things happen and that its natures way. My parents support me and my business and would be very willing to take me to our vet in the middle of the night. I feel I am very careful when pairing males and females. I had a boy that I was planning on using for breeding but decided he was just a little harsh for the ladies. My boy Finn is very sweet and wouldn't hurt a fly! Same for girls, if I don't think she'll be a good mom, she wont be bred. All of my ladies are very sweet, and so are their hoglets.


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## nikki (Aug 28, 2008)

I have a feeling that no matter what we say you're going to do whatever you want regardless of the outcomes. You can't say that your male wouldn't hurt a fly or your females either. Until you put them with another hedgehog for breeding you can't say what they will do the sweetest gentlest hedgehog can become mean, a loving hedgehog can turn mean after having a litter. You are able to justify everything by saying "my hedgehogs wouldn't do that" but you can't say that and know for sure until something happens. 

One of my sweetest females became the "meanest" hedgehog I ever had after her first litter. She because a biter, she never put her quills down or unballed if anyone was in the room. I never bred her again but she wasn't ever the same hedgehog she was before I bred her.

I can't understand why you're so determined to breed now even if it means getting rid of the hedgehogs you have now. The ones you say you love to death and are so sweet. Its hard to believe that when you obviously love the idea of breeding and making money more than you must love them or you would keep them and breed later.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Agreed with Nikki. You seem agreeable enough to wanting to do the right thing and be an ethical breeder...as long as the outcome is that you can keep breeding right now. I honestly can't say I understand why either, and I kind of question your priorities here. You seem far more interested in breeding and cute babies than you do your hedgehogs, given how willing you are to give them up in order to keep breeding. 

Like I said before...you're still young and you have plenty of time ahead of you. There's no reason for you to be so insistent on breeding right now. It honestly would probably be a lot better if you'd slow down, keep your current hedgehogs & give them a loving, caring home for their entire lifespan, experience the lifespan of a hedgehog, get more experience with different ages, health issues, and losing hedgehogs, before you continue breeding. Honestly, despite breeding & owning multiple hedgehogs, you really don't have a ton of experience with them. You've only owned them for just over a year. There's so many aspects to owning hedgehogs and taking care of them. You'll be a much better breeder and in a much better position to advise your customers if you would just wait. 

Obviously, you'll do what you want to do. But I hope you'll listen to the words of caution that multiple people are trying to get across to you, including people who have years of experience with hedgehogs and breeding, like Nikki and Nancy. They both have a ton of experience & knowledge, and I don't think their opinions or advice are anything to brush off or take lightly.


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## shinydistraction (Jul 6, 2014)

Ok, I've resisted saying anything as I'm not the most experienced person here, but I've been keeping up with this thread and I just have to put in my two cents.

As you stand right now, you are a backyard breeder. Backyard breeders don't breed ethically and responsibly, they don't understand anything about animal husbandry, they give reputable breeders a bad name, they weaken their breed by putting poorly bred animals into the world and result in abused, neglected and diseased animals. And this isn't a problem unique to hedgehogs. Every domestic animal has problems with unethical breeders that breed for all the wrong reasons.

I truly believe you want to be a good breeder. I really do. So please understand that I'm not trying to be mean for the sake of being mean. But I think you're going about this entirely the wrong way and doing it for the wrong reasons. 

If you genuinely want to be a good breeder, then you really, really need to stop breeding now. Keep your current hedgehogs and use them for the experience of caring for them. Love them, have the crazy scares that send you rushing to the vet, play with them, get to know their various personalities. Let them grow old and die. Then, once you have the money to do this for real, then buy your breeding stock. And in the meantime, take some classes on animal husbandry. When you start getting closer to being able to become a breeder, find an experienced breeder that's willing to mentor you for a while before that first litter and for a while after that.

So, I beg you, for the sake of your hedgehogs current and future, wait. Just wait. Grow up, get your own place, get your own car, get a job that can support the business of breeding. Build the foundation of knowledge that you'll need in order to breed healthy, friendly hedgehogs. You'll be a better breeder for it, and you'll be a better person.


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## Prickerz (Sep 17, 2014)

I completely agree with everyone else who is telling you to wait. 
If you care about these animals at all, you won't give any of them up. I would never buy from a breeder that got rid of an animal just because it couldn't do anything for that person anymore. 
You have ALOT more research to do before you breed again. 

But, clearly you don't care what any of us have to say. You'll do whatever you want to have cute babies. That may or may not be healthy.

I'm sorry if my words are harsh. But i'm going to college for animal cruelty investigations. I can't bare to see animals mistreated.


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## DesireeM81 (Jun 14, 2014)

A LOT of breeders retire and sell their animals that are no longer breeding or have unclean or concerns in their lines. They sell them to be spoiled pets in a home. That is how it works and that's okay, for a reputable, well stocked breeder. 

I guarantee the breeder you got your baby from sells their adult males and females when they are through breeding. Some may keep a special few that they have really bonded with but this is less common. 

As for the OP in question, just think about what everyone has said.


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