# What I was told never to do



## Skadi

Hello everyone,

I have just finished reading all those interesting postings that resulted from the simple question about sand baths. 
Since I am here to learn very much the opposite of everything I was told in our German fora, I thought I might just start on those things that I heard where a big no-go and always, at all times, to avoid. 
I'll start with the German perspective.

*1. Female hedgehogs are never to be kept alone*
I have already written something about this, but really, it is quite a big topic here. Almost no breeder is likely to sell a female hedgehog on its own without making sure there will be company.
*
2. Only bathe hedgehogs in case of illnesses that make the bath inevitable*
This was already discussed somewhere on here, so I will keep it short. Most German hedgie keepers are convinced that hedgehogs loathe being bathed, that they are afraid of drowning the whole time and that it is a big health risk. If really dirty, hedgehogs are cleaned using tooth brushes an a little bit of water. Other than that sand bathing is said to be enough. Also, you should refrain from saying hedgehogs that are floating on water look cute, it will most likely result in a heated argument.

*3. Hedgehogs have to be kept in terrariums that were designed to fullfill their needs*
You get postings about "poor little things" that are kept inside of rabbit cages and definetely need to be "rescued" in an instant. One of the arguments against those wired cages is that there is too much ventilation that may cause the hedgehog to get sick (they are not supposed to be sitting in a draft) and that makes it hard for the needed heat to stay inside. I have seen people get arroused after seeing hedgehogs that "have to live in plastic boxes". 
Also, hedgehog enclosures are said to be a minimum of 120 x 60 cm/ 4 x 2 ft (for one hedgie) or 150 x 60 cm ~5 x 2 ft (for two) always with an additional "story" (loft?). Additionally, the enclosure should be designed in a way that allows hedgie owners to reach inside from the sides, not from above which might scare hedgies (it is similiar to being caught by a bird of prey).

*4. Do not try to make your hedgehog follow your diurnal rhythm*
Trying to make them be awake during the day is said to be a lesser form of animal abuse.

*5. You should never let your hedgehog be outside*
Besides the fact that German nights tend to be cooler than 22°C, the German hedgehog community is afraid that anything that might be eaten while outside was a possible risk for your hedgehog. They are only to be fed insects that came from a pet store or your very own breeding.

*6. Wheels should not be available to your hedgehogs at all times*
As far as I know, hedgehogs are said to get addicted to them, since often wheels are used as substitutes for being able to run outside their enclosure.

*7. Do not expect your hedgehog to like cuddling and do not try to make him like it*
If you hedgehog seems to not like it when you pet him, just stop. They should not be forced to become domesticated cuddly pets. Hedgehogs are said to be rather interesting pets to watch when kept under the right conditions.

*8. Do not lift your hedgehog by grabbing his back*
There have been pictures of hedgehogs that were held like baby cats are carried by their moms. It is also seen as animal abuse.

*9. Water should not be offered in bottles*
It is said to be bad for the hedgie back.

Right now I cannot think of any more German rules, I'll add them later in case I remember some more.

I have been reading different things on other countries' informational websites. I want to apologize in advance for not being able to remember all the reasoning behind those rules:

1. Hedgehogs have to be kept separately

2. Wooden enclosures are unsanitary and something about them is said to attract mites

3. Air ventilation is very important, so the enclosure should be as open as possible

4. Too big enclosures should be avoided since they are hard to keep warm

5. Dirty hedgehogs should be bathed for their own hygiene

6. Sand and wood shavings may cause respiratory problems

7. Hedgehogs need to have a wheel available at all times

...

you may see what my problem about that is. Some "rules" just outright ask people to do the opposite of what other owners of the _same animals_ are told to do.



Draenog said:


> This is probably just a logical reaction from a new hedgehog owner who's read a lot, but doesn't have a lot of experience yet. They need to stick to certain things to figure out how to care for their hog and just repeat this information.


I second this. 
A year ago I was starting to get prepared for caring for my first hedgie and I more than gladly jumped on this "The American hedgehog maintenance is outright terrible" train which can often be seen in German fora. 
But I have come to see that this way of thinking is too narrow-minded. You can't just believe everything you are told and never question it, especially under this kind of circumstances. There are hedgehog owners that have been caring for hedgehogs for more than a decade and are still convinced that their way of doing it is the only right way there is. I just startet to doubt it.

So my goal is to find things out for myself. To see what my hedgies like and need. And also to get to know the other side of this equation. Obviously your hedgehogs are healthy and they seem to be living a happy life. That means that at least some of those "rules" have to be exaggerated.

_Please don't be offended by some of the things I wrote, it is not intended to be an accusation of any kind. I am honestly trying to figure things out for myself._


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## Draenog

I will reply to your points when I'm home, but as someone who is familiar with both ways of hedgehog keeping I feel like the Americans are sometimes too 'sterile' and careful, while the Germans are too eager to scream animal abuse and sometimes forget these animals are in fact pets, we keep them in captivity and they are not wild.


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## FinnickHog

It's so odd to me that views on keeping the same animal can be so completely, vastly different in different countries. Let me contrast your German rules with my North American rules and weigh in with my own opinion.

*1. Hedgehogs should be housed individually, regardless of gender*
This is the complete opposite of what you've been told. Here (in Canada, at least), we are warned that hedgehogs are solitary animals and should be treated as such. Fights can break out between siblings and result in death of one or both participants. There are cases of this occurring, and I'm pretty sure Nikki is the one with the best evidence, so hopefully she weighs in on this.

Since there is evidence of attacks, I wouldn't risk keeping two hedgehogs together. Also from what limited knowledge I have of their wild counterparts, they seem to be solitary.

*2. Bathe your hedgehog any time it gets dirty or smelly. Make it swim.*
You can probably tell by my tone that I doubt this one, but yes, we are told that baths are fine for hedgies who need them, and they should be warm but not too hot, and deep enough for the hog to swim.

My hedgehog hates swimming, so when I bathe him I just give him an inch of water to wade in. He doesn't hate this as much. I also use a toothbrush to scrub him a bit and use the Aveeno baby wash that is suggested on this forum. I also find that adding a few drops of oil after the bath and massaging it in is good for his skin. Now this tells me that maybe water and soap aren't particularly good for hedgehog skin. Also, I agree with the view that hedgies floating upside down in water is inhumane. They never seem to be enjoying themselves in my opinion. But my opinion does seem to contradict the norm in North America.

*3. Hedgehogs should be kept in C&C cages first and foremost, otherwise a large wire rabbit hutch or plastic bin will work*
We almost never use sand or soil in these cages and they always have excellent ventilation, so that the air doesn't get stagnant, which would be "bad" for the hog. Fleece is definitely the preferred medium for ground cover here, as it's easy to clean and unlikely to hurt the hedgehog in any way. They can't ingest it and it won't get stuck to their nails. The measurements of your suggested cage are a good minimum requirement for us as well, but bigger is viewed as better. These cages are typically full of cutesy soft stuff, like stuffed animals, cat toys, toilet paper tubes with a slit down the middle so the hedgie doesn't get stuck, etc.

I don't know which view to accept in this case, but in my experience with reptiles I've found that the closer to their natural habitat you get, the happier they seem to be. So I'm in the process of trying this with my hedgehog, and I'm basically using German guidelines in my build.

*4. Do not make your hedgehog diurnal*
Now this we're agreed upon. Some people here will try to do it anyway, but it is pretty heavily frowned upon in this community and with what few breeders I've spoken to.

I agree with this completely. A nocturnal animal is nocturnal. If you don't want it to be nocturnal, buy something else.

*5. You should never let your hedgehog be outside*
This I think will be a source of some debate here. I have seen both "Yes, under supervision" and "No, under no circumstances." The reasoning for yes being that it's good enrichment for the hedgehog and the sun is good for them. No being because they're nocturnal and couldn't care less about the sun, there are risks of ingesting all sorts of bad things even just in your lawn, and even under supervision there is a risk of losing sight of your hedgie.

I agree with your German outlook in this case. There's too much risk of predation outside and they could eat some pretty nasty stuff without you noticing. I don't think outside is worth the risk.

*6. Wheels should be available at all times*
Again a completely opposing view. The wheel is a _good_ thing because they get addicted to it though. It promotes running, especially if the cage is small or cramped. This way they always get their exercise.

I definitely have noticed the addictive nature of the wheel to hedgehogs, but I doubt my hedgie would be as active if I took the wheel out. I'm hoping to balance this problem by revamping the cage and adding more fun stuff for him to do, like digging and foraging. I'll also be keeping the wheel in at all times, though.

*7. Hedgehog personalities vary, and some will cuddle, but some will not*
This seems to take a more broad approach and considers the individual hedgehog as just that; an individual. Our view of a cuddly hedgehog seems to be of one that will climb in your pocket and sleep though, and not like a cuddly kitten or puppy.

I agree that hedgie personalities vary quite a bit. Finnick will not cuddle and is a very busy boy when I let him out. I'm more of a jungle gym to him than something to cuddle up on and fall asleep. But I have seen hedgehog videos where the hog is clearly snuggling in for a nap. I think this is in no way concrete and each hedgehog is different.

*8. Do not lift your hedgehog by grabbing its back*
I have never heard of people doing this here, and I think that's a good thing. However, as a subheader I could include "Scruffing a hedgehog is fine if you do it right and it's only to cut the hog's nails." Some people feel that this is alright because they have an area on their neck that seems to be just skin and quills.

However, I think this is inhumane. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. It causes the hedgehog's eyes to bug out, and they usually squirm unpleasantly. Of course, I also don't agree with doing this to puppies or kittens, and that is also a relatively generally accepted practice. So I might be biased.

*9. Water should not be offered in bottles*
This is an odd one here. If you don't do research, pet stores and random bystanders will tell you a bottle is fine. However, if you ask anyone with any real knowledge they will agree that bottles are dangerous. The position required to drink from them is abnormal for a hedgehog, and they risk chipping their teeth on the metal lip.

We're all in agreement here, I think. The reasons seem logical and I'm not willing to use a bottle in my hog's cage.

To cover your other comments, yes, we really do have a problem with wood objects here, because if a mite infestation occurs, it's going to be pretty darn tough to get rid of them. I've found baking the wood at a low temperature like 200 degrees Fahrenheit for an hour or so will kill absolutely everything without setting the wood on fire. So I personally ignore most of the wood hatred here. I do keep a close eye for anything moving in my reptiles' wood pieces though, just in case.

I think with us nuts on here at least, bigger enclosures just require additional heat lamps in key locations. I have seen several posts of people adding more heat lamps to larger C&C enclosures. I wouldn't be surprised if this scared the general public away from large enclosures though.

Sand and wood. Yes, these are usually frowned upon here. The reasoning is that the sand can be eaten by accident, or be dusty and cause respiratory problems. The wood again, can harbor mites. I'm currently fiddling with sand in my enclosure, but I'm sure this scares a handful of people nearly to death.

I agree completely that finding things out for yourself is the best approach. It frustrates me to no end that hedgehogs have been kept as pets as long as they have, yet no solid information exists about several areas of their care. If you look at reptiles that have been kept this long, the whole planet seems to be in agreement on their care and they're living insanely long, healthy lives.

So I like to test the boundaries of our rules a little bit and see what I can see. But I always keep in mind that something could go wrong. My hedgehog's vet is aware that I'm revamping his cage and is prepared at any moment to help me remove a piece of sand from a nostril, or what have you. I think that's the most important thing I can do. Have a vet on standby just in case my theories are completely wrong. The last thing I would ever want to do is harm Finnick in any way.

I also test things on a small scale first, and for very short periods of time. I'm still not ready to leave him in my new substrate by himself overnight.

So I say keep doing what your doing. Keep an open mind, but also remember that safety should be your first concern.

I took no offence whatsoever to your post and I think this will turn into a very interesting debate


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## octopushedge

Very interesting points. Our thread on sand bathing has prompted me to explore what boundaries I can push a little bit. I think I'm the first person on this forum who has has left a box of sand in my hedgehog's cage 24/7 now. Interestingly enough, it has changed his behaviour a bit. I'm not going to comment on every point, but it seems to have combated "wheel addiction" quite a lot. I think the problem in general is people think all a hedgehog needs is a wheel, so that's the only outlet a hedgehog has. Now between the sandbox, his dig box (a box full of plastic gems and pom poms that I put treats in), his wheel, and various balls with rattles in them, my hedgehog seems to jump from activity to activity. The sandbox especially seems to have made him far more active and curious than usual. I can't imagine getting rid of it now. That being said, I made sure to get a heavier sand that isn't going to kick up a lot of dust or stick to his genitals.

As for having hedgehogs outside, I think that really comes down to individual situations. I would never bring my hedgehog outdoors where I live because we have many birds of prey who could snatch him out of my hands in an instant. I think maybe if someone lives somewhere a little more tranquil and keeps a close eye on their hedgehog, it isn't a problem.


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## Skadi

FinnickHog said:


> *1. Hedgehogs should be housed individually, regardless of gender*
> This is the complete opposite of what you've been told. Here (in Canada, at least), we are warned that hedgehogs are solitary animals and should be treated as such. Fights can break out between siblings and result in death of one or both participants. There are cases of this occurring, and I'm pretty sure Nikki is the one with the best evidence, so hopefully she weighs in on this.


I can totally understand. I really do.
But if the co-housing was done properly (you cannot just shove them together), I have seen it work really, really well. Hedgehogs that lost their company have also often been observed becoming apathetic. 
It is done all over Germany (male hedgehog herds are also becoming a thing) - if deaths were a regular occursion, it would definetely not be this way.

Personally, I keep three hedgehogs together at the moment, and I can see that they like being together. They seek each other's company, they can always be seen roaming their room together and every time I check, they sleep back-to-back. Being together also makes them become more active.
I want to stress that they have more than enough room to avoid each other's company, if they wanted to. There are times when Kea does. So I kind of let them decide.

I have heard of fights, but most are part of their ranking during co-housing, if you interrupt them then, it will happen over and over again. You only separate them in really bad cases and after, you don't try again and let them be. Most of the times, after every hedgehog has found it's rank and if they have enough room for themselves, they live together peacefully. With my female hedgehogs there was never any ranking, so this does not even have to happen. I have never had any bad experience, in the contrary.

So with this, I'll go the German way, my hedgehogs appear to enjoy it well enough. Being together also seems to bring some more variety into their daily activities.



FinnickHog said:


> * 2. Bathe your hedgehog any time it gets dirty or smelly. Make it swim. *


I also don't like seeing my pets covered in dirt (or worse), so I can understand the urge to clean them. But I have to admit, like you, I prefer the softer way of doing so. The hedgehogs seem distressed and it must overall feel like an alien abduction to them.



FinnickHog said:


> We almost never use sand or soil in these cages and they always have excellent ventilation, so that the air doesn't get stagnant, which would be "bad" for the hog.


Every terrarium is seen to be ventilated as well - stagnant air is a bad thing here as well. There everyone is agreed upon except for the extent as to which it must be ventilated.



FinnickHog said:


> Fleece is definitely the preferred medium for ground cover here, as it's easy to clean and unlikely to hurt the hedgehog in any way.


I found a thread in a German forum about someone asking about fleece, he or she thought it was a nice alternative to the commonly used substances.
The first posting was: "I think it's bull****. The animals thus need to walk through their urine, because neither does the fleece absorb liquids properly, nor are those liquids lead to lower layers. On top, it smells badly after just two days."

Afterwards there was a consense on fleece being...
...dangerous (their feet could get caught)
...nondiscript (it does not react the way sand or shavings do)
...inconvenient (you get tired of sticking it to the floor)
...unnatural (as are shavings so you should provide change by alternating between sand and shavings)
...unable to batter claws in any way

Right now I offer both and let them choose.



FinnickHog said:


> * 5. You should never let your hedgehog be outside*


 I do feel like they miss out on something, but I don't want them to roam about outside, either. It is a five minutes walk from my home to stand right in the middle of the Black Forest. The real thing. I see foxes and such in our garden on a regular basis. Also lots of dangerous birds. (and there is a gang of runner ducks in my city as well, I would not want to come too close to those either).



FinnickHog said:


> This way they always get their exercise.


But doesn't this kind of exercise strain their bodies unevenly? I think they should get lots of exercise. But also the right kind.



FinnickHog said:


> "Scruffing a hedgehog is fine if you do it right and it's only to cut the hog's nails." Some people feel that this is alright because they have an area on their neck that seems to be just skin and quills.


Scruffing is what I was trying to describe, I did not know the word (and I don't know if there even is one in my native language?). My personal opinion is strict on that one. Just don't. I hate the way they react to it.

I will have to look for accidents concerning mites. Until now, I have never heard of it being a problem. Like, at all.



FinnickHog said:


> I agree completely that finding things out for yourself is the best approach. It frustrates me to no end that hedgehogs have been kept as pets as long as they have, yet no solid information exists about several areas of their care.


It should be possible to understand their needs. And at least on some level it should also be possible to apply those guidelines to every hedgehog, no matter what character. They should have the same basic needs. But I think a little more communication among different communities is important for this to work.

Okay, I did not answer on every thing. Still, I feel like writing too much already. I hope that's okay. :grin:


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## FinnickHog

I wish I had the space to try housing hedgehogs together. With what I have right now I wouldn't risk it, just because they'd always be in each other's way. I'll definitely see if I can find some videos of cohabitating hogs to have a look though. I wonder if the North American fleece-and-cuddles type environment has any effect on their personalities, and if that could possibly cause the more frequent fighting here. Or maybe our hogs are just more temperamental. Could be any number of things. I know there are cases of dogs of the same breed being expected to have vastly different temperaments depending on which country they were bred in, and it could be something similar. We don't typically put multiples together, so we don't breed intentionally for hogs that are friendly with other hogs.

The fleece to natural bedding argument is so strange. There are such strong opposing views. Do you find your hedgehogs gravitate more to one type of substrate? Finn found the sand on his toes really odd at first but now he seems to like it. He pranced around like a madman the whole first time we tried it, but the second time he was flinging it everywhere and sinking his feet in.

I'm hoping with a fancy enough enclosure I can supply everything a hedgehog needs from both a pet standpoint as well as a wild standpoint from inside my house. I also worry that he's missing out on something, and I take my skink outside regularly. But the sunlight is extremely healthy for her, and she's massive, so there's much less chance of predation.

You would think running on the same surface all day would get boring, and with wheels that have a tilt, I can't help but wonder what the muscle growth of these hogs looks like. But I have no proof either way.

I've never worried about mites very much either. My first snake came home with mites, so I threw out everything I had near him and started over. I haven't seen a single mite in the 8 years since and I'm not really clear on how some people seem to get repeat infestations as frequently as they do. Maybe it's a regional problem? Most of that stuff freezes to death in the winter up here.

Don't worry about writing too much. Just look at my, Kelsey's and Draenog's other posts :lol:. Sometimes there's just a lot to say!


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## nikki

I haven't had a problem with hedgehogs being housed together, I never did that. There were some people that had and had them together for a year or more when one suddenly either injured or killed the other hedgehog. It was never a risk I wanted to take.


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## FinnickHog

nikki said:


> I haven't had a problem with hedgehogs being housed together, I never did that. There were some people that had and had them together for a year or more when one suddenly either injured or killed the other hedgehog. It was never a risk I wanted to take.


I remember you mentioning this in more depth somewhere... I don't think any of the regular members keep multiple hedgehogs together either, and my reasoning not to was this story. Considering they'd been together for over a year when it happened, I'm not sure it's worth the risk.


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## Draenog

Okay, I'm home, so here are my two cents. I must warn you, it's probably going to be long.  :lol:

This is my opinion (! not the truth) as someone who is neither North American nor German but is familiar with both ways.
A few of the "rules" you are describing seem to be the same, or nearly the same, for many people (Americans) on this forum.

As someone who has read up on both ways of hedgehog keeping and has a few years of experience with several hedgehogs (which still isn't that much, I have a lot to learn and am no expert, nor do I pretend to be one, but I feel fairly confident in the basics of hedgehog keeping now) I mostly try to keep my hedgehogs in a "logical" way. With logical I mean: I look at their nature, their needs, their natural habitat, food, etc. and try to apply these things to my pets as best as I can, and what I consider best for them.

One thing I try to keep in mind is: these animals are not fully domesticated yet. BUT they are pets. They are not wild, and this means some things are necessary for their well-being.
Then there's the reason I keep pets. Keeping pets is always an egoistical choice. You can keep an animal as natural as possible, try to leave it alone as much as possible, but you chose a pet because _you _wanted it. I have hedgehogs because I like them, I think they are interesting animals and I enjoy spending time with them. This means I am going to handle them and this is something they'll have to get used to. This is also beneficial in other aspects, which I'll talk about later.

I try to keep an open mind and I believe there are only a few absolute no-go's. I've seen many extremes in both the American and the German way (a few you've summed up already) and I do not believe it is that black and white. I believe we should use common sense, look at the hedgehog in general as a species, and do not forget to look at our own specific hedgehog(s). All hedgehogs are different and often require a different approach.

*1. Female hedgehogs are never to be kept alone*

Whether you are against keeping hedgehogs together or not, this might be one of the few things which are absolutely not true. Unless a researcher in Africa discovers new, never heard of hedgehog behaviour which suddenly makes them social animals.

I've always found it ironical how some Germans, so convinced about their "natural" way, proceed to keep hedgehogs in what is probably the the most unnatural way possible: in pairs, or sometimes with even more hedgehogs.

One of the first things we notice if we look at the hedgehog is how it lives a solitary life. The most natural way of keeping hedgehogs would be to keep them on their own (one could argue the absolute natural way would be to let them mate in the right season and then split them up again, but I do not consider that to be an ethical option). In the wild hedgehogs only come together for mating. If they bump into each other outside of mating season they will tolerate each other at best, ignore each other and go their own way, or fight.

Keeping hedgehogs together seems to have been born out of practical reasons for the owner. More hedgehogs; less space. Especially easy for people who breed hedgehogs.

I do not really believe hedgehogs are very fond or dependent of each other like social animals, who have a social hierarchy (wolves, horses, etc) are. They seem to tolerate each other, and like many other solitary animals when kept together in captivity, probably simply enjoy the warmth when sleeping together instead of being cuddly (for some animals, esp reptiles, it can be a sign of dominance as well). Also, a lot of people only have one comfy spot for them to sleep in; of course they'll all be sleeping there. 
Females seem to go along well if there is enough space (this is, to me, another sign of their solitary nature; only with enough room they'll tolerate each other)
I've heard some hedgehogs seem to "mourn" when the other dies, but I am not sure if this is really mourning or simply them being sensitive to big changes (they can react the same way after changing cages, houses, owner etc).

I am not against keeping hedgehogs together, although it wouldn't be my first choice. I don't think it's bad. If the hedgehogs go along well they should be fine. But everyone who knows the simple basics about hedgehogs should know they are solitary animals and therefore do not need a "friend". If people still want to keep them together that's up to them. But they should be aware they're going against the nature of the hedgehog. If they still want to keep them together after considering this, I do not think it is a terrible choice but they should not pretend it is for any other reason than to simply keep more hedgehogs without sacrificing a lot more space. It is not needed nor beneficial to the animals.

I know several American breeders who keep their females in pairs, btw.

*2. Only bathe hedgehogs in case of illnesses that make the bath inevitable

*Hedgehogs do seem to loathe water and I do not approve of swimming, unless it needs to be done for medical reasons (recovery, weight loss in extremely obese hedgehogs). I only bathe my hedgehogs when it's really needed and never use more water than a very shallow layer. I scrub with a toothbrush. I think this is what many people do, I don't know a lot who let their hedgehogs swim. 
Bathing is not a health risk unless you use extremely hot or cold water, or let the hedgehog get cold afterwards. 
We need to keep in mind our hedgehogs are pets and sometimes we need to do things they dislike for their well-being. Cleaning with water is one of them. I do not want to risk my hedgehogs losing their toes or even a foot simply because I don't want to wash their feet when they're dirty.

*3. Hedgehogs have to be kept in terrariums that were designed to fullfill their needs

*Hedgehogs can be kept in any cage that fulfils their needs and is hedgehog-proof: they should be unable to escape or hurt themselves (e.g. by climbing vertical cage bars).

There are pros and cons to different cage types. If you are using a wire cage and your hedgehog is getting sick, it is not the cage but the placement. Your hedgehog shouldn't be placed in a draft or cold area. 
I've seen many Germans keep 2 hedgehogs in a 120 x 60 cm cage, which means the hedgehogs actually have a lot less space per hedgehog than solitary animals kept in a smaller cage. Even 2 hedgehogs in a 150 x 60 cm cage have less space than what most people use for one hedgehog.
Example: the minimum recommended size here for one hedgehog is 100 x 50 cm. This means two hedgehogs should be kept in double the size (200 x 100 cm). But you rarely see cages that big. 
Germans often think they have bigger cages, but by keeping hedgehogs together, they usually don't. They have more animals within less space.

Hedgehogs do not care if they are kept in a plastic tub, terrarium or wire cage. As long as you are able to warm it up it to the appropriate temperature, it's big enough (for me; not smaller than 100 x 50 cm, but preferably bigger) and it is hedgehog-safe it should be fine.

As for the placement of the doors: it's nice to have doors opening from the front, but they will get used to people reaching in and picking them up from whatever side.

*4. Do not try to make your hedgehog follow your diurnal rhythm

*I think this is universally agreed on. They are nocturnal animals, do not try to reverse their natural rythm. *

5. You should never let your hedgehog be outside

*This doesn't seem to be a German thing, many people share this opinion. I personally don't. My hedgehogs enjoy being outside, there are no predators around here, and I always keep a close eye on them in case they might want to eat something (which has never happened so far). 
It does need to be warm enough though, which can be difficult in some areas.

*6. Wheels should not be available to your hedgehogs at all times
*
They've done research with wild mice, they placed a wheel outside and the mice would actually run in it. Because apparently it is fun. 
http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/05/even-wild-mice-run-wheels
Can it become an addiction? Maybe, it's hard to say. But many people notice their hedgehogs trash their cage after removing the wheel, or start to display repetitive behaviour, sometimes they'll even start selfharming. 
I believe a wheel should always be provided but it shouldn't be the only "toy" in the cage. Activity should be encouraged in as many ways as possible to prevent boredom and obesity. This includes trying out new things to keep the hedgehog active and entertained. 
The wheel should be big enough so the hedgehog won't run with an arched back. That way it runs in a natural position which does not put extra/unnatural strain on the body. 
I have to say, having a wheel should NOT be an excuse for keeping a hedgehog in a small cage.

*7. Do not expect your hedgehog to like cuddling and do not try to make him like it

*I'm no fan of "forcing" things, but I didn't get my pets just to look at them.
What many people forget is our pets should be easy to handle not just because you want to cuddle, but because it is important for their well-being. What if your hedgehog gets sick and you can't even handle him, nor can the vet? What if you never handle your hedgehog and therefore do not notice it's sick?
Handling is not just for fun. Handling is an important part of the responsibility you have as a pet owner. You should be able to take good care of your pet, and this includes being able to check it for any weird bumps, possible things wrapped around feet, etc. You should be able to cut its nails when needed and give it meds when it's sick. 
Then there's stress. I guess some people think "he doesn't like being handled, I should leave him alone, this will give him less stress" but the opposite is true. Yes, it'll give more stress in the beginning. But it's a pet in captivity which means you will be around it for feeding, to cut its nails, handle it when its sick, etc. etc. It should get used to you, at least to some extent. 
Hedgehogs most likely don't care if you don't handle them very often. But it will only give them more stress if they are not used to it - especially if you're only handling them when you are doing things they really don't like (nail clipping, bath time, vet visits). They'll associate handling with negative situations. 
I "train" (or at least try to, I haven't always had the easiest hogs) my hedgehogs to be easy to inspect. Not to freak out when clipping nails. I want to be able to look in their mouths. I want to be able to scruff them because this can be the only way to examine a sick hedgehog at the vet's. I want them to get used to things so they don't care about it anymore and will have less stress. Less stress = a happier hedgehog, imo.
And of course I want them to be easy to handle because I like to hold them. They're my pets after all.

*8. Do not lift your hedgehog by grabbing his back

*I've briefly talked about it but I learn my hedgehogs scruffing isn't a bad thing. I rarely do it because it is not needed, but if a hedgehog is sick and doesn't want to take its meds, doesn't want to be examined etc. it is a helpful way of handling. This doesn't mean you should always handle your hedgehog like this.

*9. Water should not be offered in bottles

*Another international thing I think, most people agree bowls are better. Some use bottles. It doesn't seem to be very country specific.



octopushedge said:


> Very interesting points. Our thread on sand bathing has prompted me to explore what boundaries I can push a little bit. I think I'm the first person on this forum who has has left a box of sand in my hedgehog's cage 24/7 now. Interestingly enough, it has changed his behaviour a bit. I'm not going to comment on every point, but it seems to have combated "wheel addiction" quite a lot. I think the problem in general is people think all a hedgehog needs is a wheel, so that's the only outlet a hedgehog has. Now between the sandbox, his dig box (a box full of plastic gems and pom poms that I put treats in), his wheel, and various balls with rattles in them, my hedgehog seems to jump from activity to activity. The sandbox especially seems to have made him far more active and curious than usual. I can't imagine getting rid of it now. That being said, I made sure to get a heavier sand that isn't going to kick up a lot of dust or stick to his genitals.


I've had sand baths in my cages 24/7 but I didn't notice any big differences in behaviour. But my cages were already quite "natural" (with loose bedding, dig boxes with stones, cork tunnels etc).



FinnickHog said:


> I remember you mentioning this in more depth somewhere... I don't think any of the regular members keep multiple hedgehogs together either, and my reasoning not to was this story. Considering they'd been together for over a year when it happened, I'm not sure it's worth the risk.


As for Americans and keeping hedgehogs together, I often wonder if it's not just the same occasions being repeated over and over (a bit like the thing with woods and mites). I'm not so sure if there have been that many accidents or if it's mainly people repeating what they've heard or read.


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## Lilysmommy

I"m really wondering if the mite thing is country-specific? Or if it's something where it's kept in check until the animal gets sick or something. I find it curious that it seems to be a very common issue in the US, but not in countries where we would expect it to be a major issue, with lots of wood in the cage (from what we've read/been told/etc.). I wish we knew more about hedgehog mites. I know that Lily had them at one point earlier in our time together and it took me a month of changing the bedding & cleaning the cage daily, plus treating Lily 3-4 times with Revolution to get rid of them. It took her another two or more months to grow her quills back. I'm not sure if it happened before or after she was on wood bedding though...I'd have to go back in my posts & see if I can find any threads about it. I've also gone to a pet store with the hedgehogs housed on wooden bedding & one of the hedgehogs had mites so badly that I had mites crawling on my hands & shirt when I left the store. I know anecdotal evidence still isn't exactly reliable, but just mentioning those things.

I agree with Draenog on the multiple hedgies thing. Fair enough if it goes well, but they are solitary animals and really do not need a companion. Personally, I don't plan to ever keep multiple hedgehogs in a cage together. It seems to be an unnecessary risk, and it's easier to monitor animal health if each animal has its own space.

Actually I think I agree with most of what Draenog said. :lol: Especially on handling and the wheel thing. Even animals kept in zoos & sanctuaries are taught behaviors that make it easier to do necessary medical work without stressing the animal more than necessary. Animals in captivity need to have care provided, and it's better to get them used to that rather than never handle them & then have the care either be bad or have moments of necessary upkeep be ten times more stressful. And I agree that the wheel should not be a substitute for a larger cage or the only activity provided. I know many hedgehogs won't play with toys, but I think it's up to the owner to keep trying different things & rotate objects in the cage to try & find something the hedgehog will interact with. I'm planning to have a wheel, a dig box of some kind with artificial filling (pom pom balls, I think), natural substrate (also provides digging & sandbaths), and numerous foraging-type toys, as well as other kinds of toys (balls, toy cars/trucks, stuffed animals, etc.) in my hedgehog's cage when I get her. I plan on always having a couple of foraging-type toys in the cage, and will rotate things in & out of the cage. I also want to place several bowls around her cage so that her food is in numerous areas rather than all in one place.

Also, the thing with fleece is that it generally doesn't get caught on feet/legs, which is one reason it's recommended. A lot of hedgehogs seem to enjoy it - I remember an Egyptian long-eared hedgehog that was kept in one country (I don't recall which...sigh) who adored her fleece blankets & preferred to snuggle up in them than anything else. I'm all for natural enclosures & providing natural activities for enrichment, but I think 100% either way (sterile or natural) limits you on providing choices for your pet. Things that wouldn't be found in the native habitat can still provide good enrichment & entertain animals. I was just at a volunteer open house for my local zoo & one of the people mentioned that their capybaras apparently love bubble bath in their fountain. :lol: 

Also regarding the Americans & multiple hedgehogs thing, I can think of at least two separate horrifying incidents that I've read. One was someone with two females, one 6 months old & one older (I think she was around 3 years). The younger hedgehog chewed the ear off the older one & the older hedgie died of blood loss. There was likely more to the story that the owner didn't know - she found the hedgies after the fact, and we figured there had to be something else going on that would've prevented the older hedgehog from getting away or fighting back. The other was from a breeder I'm friends with. She had a mother & daughter pair housed together. I don't recall which, but one of them killed the other. Again, the owner was out when it happened & doesn't know what caused the incident. I've read other accounts, but those are the two that have stayed in my mind more & are the reason I don't want to even risk it. I'm sure larger enclosures would help, but IMO, the risk is still there, and it's easier & safer to keep them in separate enclosures. Owners are rarely around 100% of the time to watch interactions, and most people aren't awake & aware of what's going on when our hedgehogs are active & most likely to get into a fight.


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## Skadi

FinnickHog said:


> We don't typically put multiples together, so we don't breed intentionally for hogs that are friendly with other hogs.


I did not consider this in any way, but to me, it makes sense. #
I must admit, after reading about them killing each other, I really started worrying. I have never heard of them killing each other out of a sudden and that it supposedly has happend kind of discourages me as well. But according to my experiences it is just not a thing. I really cannot imagine.

I am starting to think about trying something out. I can easily make my enclosure be five separate enclosures with 120 x 60 cm each. I could separate them for a while and see what changes. But I don't want to make to big a change (it should not be irreversible). The tricky thing is that they have different substances on each part of the enclosure - they would not be able to choose their groundings any more. And their acitivties would be limited in a great way. So there are some points that make me reconsider...



Draenog said:


> If they still want to keep them together after considering this, I do not think it is a terrible choice but they should not pretend it is for any other reason than to simply keep more hedgehogs without sacrificing a lot more space.


What you are saying is right. At first, when I got my first hedgie, I wanted to get a girl (just because I had already found a female name that I found most adorable) and to just try having one. I got bombarded with postings against it.
Everyone tried to talk me out of it and told me their stories. I also became kind of thrilled, I was thus getting two hedgehogs and bought them a second terrarium which I combined to the first (both 120 x 60). But later, when I was at the South German breeder I had been talking of elsewhere, I thought it was too much. She has had about 15 to 20 hedgehogs in a herd. There were three terrariums forming a "U"-shape against a wall, in the middle there was space to run and she would open their doors at specific times, so that either the boys' group (4-6 hedgies, I do not remember clearly) or the girls' group could run. (An agyptian long-eared hedgehog was living in the third one. This species is never kept in groups, since it just does not work out well). 
Their terrariums were huge, but still I didn't think it was a good way of caring. I never again bought a hedgehog from there (although I will admit, I was sometimes tempted quite a bit).

Right now my hedgehogs live in an enclosure that has five stories - each of which is 120 x 60 cm. The stories are connected via ramps. I also keep them in a roughly 12 m² hedgehog-proof room of their own which they are able to roam every night (I close the doors in the morning).

Also, about two hedgehogs being kept inside of a 120 x 60 terrarium: This is a strange thing and I have been wondering for quite a while. Sometime between the ending of 2013 and the beginning of 2014 the common opinion changed from "120x60 for two hedgehogs" to "120x60 for one hedgehog" (adding about 30 centimeters in length for every additional one). From then on it was considered a bad thing having two inside of 120x60. Before that it was adviced.

I have also been wondering about these kind of arbitrary rules about housing. Apparently it is inhumane to keep two hedgehogs in 160 x 50 enclosures. I just cannot really understand where this is coming from. They often critize enclosure sizes that appear to just not fit their vision, although hedgehogs in those would have more space than their own do living together in a bigger one. Also, there was a time I noticed that they were totally okay with a known forum member building a 300x40 cm enclosure. With strangers they would have talked about 40 cm being merely enough for the hedgehog to turn himself, thus not allowing for activities. Other times it is just not understandable... and there are voices against keeping too many hedgehogs together by just adding 30 cm in length for each.



FinnickHog said:


> Do you find your hedgehogs gravitate more to one type of substrate?


I am not yet ready for a conclusion. But up to this point, my hedgehogs appear to prefer natural bedding. The only trace of them still using the fleece section is their leavings - and I have to admit that they have to cross it in order to leave the enclosure and roam the room. There are many things to consider: They have been kept on shavings and sand their whole lives, it is what they know. And I added the fleece one quite recently.
But another thing I noticed: Each of my hogs has a small selection of favorite spots to sleep in. They change when I alternate their accessories, but in general I know which substrates they like to sleep in and which houses they like best. (Kea for example will commonly sleep in the biggest pile of straw she can find no matter where exactly that may be, preferably in a warm spot). They abandoned every favorite thing (one of the favorite places to sleep just below the ramp, one of the most liked houses) after I put the lining. But in Kea's case it could just be about there being no straw.
Again, it is yet too early to be sure.


----------



## Skadi

octopushedge said:


> Now between the sandbox, his dig box (a box full of plastic gems and pom poms that I put treats in), his wheel, and various balls with rattles in them, my hedgehog seems to jump from activity to activity. The sandbox especially seems to have made him far more active and curious than usual. I can't imagine getting rid of it now.


That really makes me happy. 
It also stresses the thought I had about the communities completing each other in some way. Sand is often prefered, since wood shavings may cause the skin to dry out.

I also got some more information about the sand that is used.
You can take children's play sand (it is recommended a lot), but you have to dry it first, it is commonly sold being a little moist.
You should choose a kind of sand that does not contain "Attapulgit" or "Sepiolith", though, since this substances are said to cause lung cancer and such (which often does not happen with smaller animals because of their shorter life-spans, they die to early for cancer to evolve).
Also, quartz sand is said to be risky, it is rather sharp-edged, and Chinchilla sand tends to be more dusty which is also not recommended.

In general sand that clumps when wet is preferred, this way you can take the dirty sand out easily and wastage is decreased. Also it does not get sticky.
Ideally several kinds of sand are mixed together: Chinchilla sand, terrarium sand, play sand.

One forum member tried a mixture of sand and clay, but does not recommend. It is way to dusty, although her hedgies otherwise were described as being happy to play inside.
Afterwards she tested play sand mixed with pine-tree bark/peeling (I don't know how to call it) and everyone liked it that way best. It was descriped as being not dusty at all, hard-wearing and nice to look at.

Concerning cat litter:
Often sand is replaced by cat litter. In order to work the litter should be scentless (there are sorts that small of roses and such which can be irritating). Also, I don't remember clearly, it should either be with clay or without. It is kind of critical info, so I'll try to look it up, right now I cannot find it anymore.
Many hedgehog keepers are still not sure about cat litter, there has been a case of a hedgehog dying, because he ate it (dragged his meat with him into the cat litter). The risk of them eating it is very narrow, but still folks got more cautious.

Also, while scrolling through German postings, I found something concerning mites: Often mites where brought into the enclosure when straw was entered. That is the reason straw is baked before it enters the enclosure. There have been reportings about mites, but they are small in number and the wooden enclosure is not mentioned as part of the problem. All of them got rid of these parasites comparably easily.


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## shinydistraction

This has been such an interesting read! Skadi, I'm glad you started this. I think we can learn a lot from each other. It's especially great since we also have Draenog to act as our in betweener who knows both sides of the story.

Regarding housing females together: While concerns of fighting and injury are certainly the big scary reason we tend to not to house hedgehogs together, to me there's another just as important reason. One of the early warning signs that a hedgehog is not feeling well is if they are suddenly eating and/or drinking less or stop completely. If multiple hedgehogs have access to the same food and water, how do you tell which one is ill? In fact, how would you even notice? If you happen to notice blood in the cage, how would you tell who it belongs to if there's no obvious wound? To me, it seems like a needless waste of time. Instead of seeing the problem and seeking veterinary care early, you're stuck having to separate them and watch to see who is having the issue. Having a single hedgehog in an enclosure makes discerning health concerns much easier. They're so hard to spot as it is, I can't imagine making it more difficult by adding more hogs to the mix. You also run the risk of one hog not getting enough to eat because the others in the cage may be forcing her away from the food until they've had their fill, which might not leave enough for the one being bullied. And you'd never be able to tell by how much is being eaten.

I do however, agree, the individuals involved should be considered when making the decision to house them together. I personally would not do it, but I don't think it's the worst thing in the world either. I certainly wouldn't look down on anyone that did. It's just a choice you make as a pet owner. I just wouldn't want to worry about not noticing one is ill just because I couldn't monitor food and water intake.

Also, jumping to the conversation about fleece and how it was so demonized. I laughed reading it, it was just so inaccurate I even wondered if we were referring to the same fabric. Once of the reasons fleece is used over other fabrics is the fact that it dries so quickly. And there really isn't a smell. Unless there is a diet issue of course, then I can see there being a smell, but that's hardly the fleece's fault. I'm aware that it's easy to become nose blind to things in your home, so I've made a point of asking people new to my home or people who haven't been in a while if they notice anything smell wise. The response has been an overwhelming no. Nobody notices hedgehog smell, and my girl lives in my living room which you're basically in as soon as you walk in the door.

It's just sooo easy too. I have two liners, so once a week I swap them and wash the dirty one. And it's just a matter of laying it on the floor of the cage. Way less work than doing a swap of substrate. 

And really, urine and poo really aren't much of a concern. Babies will go all over the place, but adults with better control of their bathroom habits tend to go while on their wheel. A simple paper towel under the wheel catches just about everything and is quick to swap daily. Beyond that, there shouldn't be much other pee or poo in the rest of the cage. Honestly, I think I've inadvertently potty trained my girl to do her business on the paper towel. There are nights she chooses another activity and runs less on her wheel. I still find the majority of her poo on the paper towel, even though there's little no poo on the wheel. 

Hah, ok, been waiting all day to write all that out. I've been following the conversation on mobile and I refuse to write more than a few sentences on mobile. Of course I was busy when I got home. :lol: So I got to think about it all day long and not get to say anything! I feel better now


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## Skadi

shinydistraction said:


> This has been such an interesting read! Skadi, I'm glad you started this. I think we can learn a lot from each other. It's especially great since we also have Draenog to act as our in betweener who knows both sides of the story.


I am so relieved it was so well-received. I was afraid of getting run over by a bunch of people shouting "Everything you do is wrong, you are basically killing your hedgehogs!" (Again, don't take it as personal offense, I haven't had much experience with this forum and had a nice share of bad experiences else where  )



shinydistraction said:


> If multiple hedgehogs have access to the same food and water, how do you tell which one is ill?


I think this is quite important, because it definetely is harder to tell. First of all, they mostly get their food offered in several bowls on different parts of my enclosure, thus it is guaranteed that they will always be able to eat somewhere else (I have seen them eating at the same time without problems, though).
Also, cheeky little hedgies like Lumi were repeatedly seen stealing meal worms out of another hedgies mouth when they were being fed (because I don't know who reaches food first, I like to feed insects directly to them with tweezers. As soon as one of them starts to smackingly eat, all of them just magically appear and want some, too. Afterwards I put some inside, so I know everyone knows about it and is there to get some). But every time this sneeky little hedgie was too impatient to wait for her meal worms to be offered and stole the other's food, they did not seem to care much. They saw the insect disappear in her mouth and started staring at me to get another one. No aggression towards any other hedgie whatsoever.
But it is true, apart from insect-time, I don't really know who eats how many kibbles.

So I weigh them at least once a week, commonly even more often, and note their weights onto my calender. I have bought two of those family timers (I don't know whether they are a thing in your countries, they look like this:








Every pet I own has one column for itself, so I can see what is going on with every single one of them.)

Unitl now, I have always been able to find out which hedgehog is injured. But if there was - for example - just strange looking poo inside their enclosure (it's hard to tell who left it there) and I am not sure about it, I take all of them to the vet to get examined.

About Fleece: I am also proud owner of four peruvian guinea pigs and the German guinea pig community is fairly fond of fleece (which made it look even more ridiculous to me when it was talked of as if it was the worst grounding in the world for APH). But they use different layers when using fleece. The lowest layer is impervious to water, than there is a layer that is as liquid absorbing as possible and on top lies the fleece.
Is it just one layer at yours?


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## shinydistraction

There seems to be a variety of how people like to use fleece. What I myself have done is sewn two layers of fleece (ok, really my mother in law did the sewing) together. I don't use anything additional for absorption. Some people do though. I've heard of some that have sewn terry cloth towels in between the fleece layers to absorb liquids better. I haven't tried that yet for 2 reasons. Reason #1: I'm lazy. Reason #2: I worry it won't dry as quickly and possible lend to causing unpleasant smells.

But it's common for hedgehogs to burrow under their liners, or "liner dive" as it's often referred to as. So I think it's an iffy sort of thing to use something different underneath the fleece. Which I think is why something will sometimes be sewn between the layers rather than putting it underneath.

I've also heard of people using pee pads (is that a thing in Europe? Pads designed for puppies to go on inside the house.) underneath the fleece. I personally think those things are gross and I'd had for a hedgehog to rip it up and eat some of it.

But still others will only use a single layer of fleece cut to size. Which is also fine. I only use 2 layers because I think it's comfier. I feel it's important to note that I'm using a fairly heavy weight anti pill fleece. I wouldn't use a non anti pill fleece as liner. That's just asking for toe nails to get caught.

That's hysterical that the guinea pig community there loves fleece but the APH community does not. I've never kept a guinea pig, but when I was doing my initial research for the requirements of hedgehog ownership, guinea pig stuff often came up in my searches also.

Jumping back to the conversation of housing females together. Keeping weight records I imagine help quite a bit. Are you pretty consistent with weighing them only before or after they relieve themselves? I had an odd issue with my girl early in and I wound up weighing her on a nightly basis for several months. I found it made quite a bit of difference, so I settled on weighing her after she had pottied.

My concern though is that by the time there's enough change in weight to make me worried whatever the trouble is may have progressed beyond a simple treatment. Some things need attention sooner than others. UTI's I think are what worry me. This may just be because I've suffered a number of them myself and I know how much they suck. But also, I believe blood in the urine can also be a sign of uterine cancer, and we all know that treatment for cancer is better the earlier it's started.


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## Draenog

Lilysmommy said:


> I"m really wondering if the mite thing is country-specific? Or if it's something where it's kept in check until the animal gets sick or something. I find it curious that it seems to be a very common issue in the US, but not in countries where we would expect it to be a major issue, with lots of wood in the cage (from what we've read/been told/etc.).


I've been wondering the same thing. On this forum you often get warned about wood because it can harbour mites, while in reality the people who use wood rarely have a problem. 
Maybe the wooden bedding in the US is of lesser quality?
As for fleece liners, some people use liners with different layers, some use liners with just one.

Thank you guys for mentioning something I forgot: it is easier to keep track of a hedgehog's health if you keep them alone.
Then there's the issue of overweight hedgehogs. Some hedgehogs need a higher fat food than others. It can be hard to control this when keeping them together. 
Personally, if they're doing fine, I don't really see a reason to separate them as long as you keep in mind there's a small chance it could go wrong one day. If you separate them it might be harder to introduce them again. 
I haven't heard any horror stories from around here (my country and surrounding nations) with keeping hedgehogs together, all stories seem to come from the US. Actually, the two incidents Kelsey mentioned are two of the ones I know of. This strengthens my feeling there aren't _that _many accidents at all, but it's always the same ones being repeated over and over. (I'm not saying there suddenly aren't any risks to keeping hedgehogs together, but the risks might be smaller than they're made out to be in the US).

While I'm not against keeping two or three hedgehogs together (who knows I might even attempt it in the future, if I for example get a 'bonded' pair) I think a big herd of over 10 animals is way too much. I cannot imagine it being nice for the animals and it sounds nearly like a mill breeder to me.

I do agree on not being 100% "pro-American" or "pro-German", somewhere in between seems to provide more choices for your hedgehog and gives you more freedom to try out new things.

Btw, what German forum are you talking about? Not sure if I know it yet


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## Skadi

Draenog said:


> Btw, what German forum are you talking about? Not sure if I know it yet


Oh, I am fairly sure you know it. There are only two I know of - and there are the same people and same opinions in both. 
http://www.hedgehog-connection.de/ is the one I commonly use.
You should know it, since you are following their facebook page.

This is the second one: 
http://igwzdforum.iphpbb3.com/forum/index.php?nxu=78577552nx4244
(It is called "Hedgie Club")

Also, for everyone interested: http://www.dein-weissbauchigel.de/
This is the main information page for hedgehogs (I don't know a second one in German).


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## kay8

I have been thinking about providing an area for my hoglet to dig in - can you advise what is the best thing to use? He has a paper based litter in his tray that he seems to scatter and I did think of using shredded kitchen roll, but i didn't think that would be heavy enough to encourage digging..


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## Skadi

Unfortunately, my lazy little hedgies usually don't feel like digging. Only one of them actively follows insects in case they run past her, all the others just ignore them. They never intentionally digged for buried Snacks either. Actually I suspect the hedgehogs that were thought to be digging were enjoying themselves Sand bathing. 

So, my recommendation would be to find something flat that you could fill with play Sand for children. Remember to put it into sunlight or to Bake it before you put it into the enclosure. 
Since it is supposed to be an activity not their bedding you don't necessarily need to mix different kinds of Sand. I think they would like it, though. 

Only one mistake I did should be warned of: See not to spray good-smellings sprays close to the Sand before putting it inside. Kea developed an eager interest in tasting some, so I had to change it.


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## Skadi

As of paper stripes... I imagine it would be similiar to straw which my hedgies love to say the least. They always carry it inside their bark tunnel. Why don't you try to offer both?


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## octopushedge

A lot of people use cut fleece strips. I have a small box full of craft pom poms and small plastic gems I picked up at the dollar store. They're different textures and weights, and I find my hedgehog likes it a lot. In the mornings I usually find pom poms all over the cage. 

Skadi, it's interesting you mention getting sand that clumps when wet. Here we recommend against it so it doesn't stick to genitals and cause health problems if they urinate in it. The sand I'm using right now is riverbed sand, it's a bit heavier but still quite soft because it's been eroded by water. It's designed for turtles to avoid health problems if they accidentally swallow it. Both Reggie and I like it a lot - he loves rolling in it, and I love it because it doesn't create clouds of dust or fly everywhere


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## Draenog

Ah yes I've seen those German sites before, don't think I've ever signed up there though. 

I use river pebbles (big enough so they can't be swallowed). My hedgehogs love digging for treats if I hide them between the stones.


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## Skadi

Cut fleece stripes might work just as fine. I don't see any problem in using it, so I would definetely want to try. I'll just have to get myself some more fleece. Right now I have non to shred. 

From my experience, the clumpy one really has a lot of advantages, since it is easier to get rid of the dirty parts and you will always be able to see the differences between the still fine parts and the waste. Also dirty sand will never stuck to the hedgehogs or make them walk with their urine on them. Judging by the form of the clumped wet sand, their genitals don't get involved. I have never paid attention to it, though, since it is really not seen as a problem here, but I might just do that. However I can definetely say that I have had them with me quite often after this kind of playtime and never did I notice any problems down there. Also, please don't take it as an offense, but to me it sounds a little overprotective.
Still, the riverbed sand sounds like something I might give a shot 

River pebbles are also really nice inside the enclosure. 
But, again, my hedgehogs are to lazy and I had to pick all the mealies out of there myself after I started finding more and more potato bugs. :-?
It still looks like they like walking on the stones, though.


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## Melissa08

if bottle water for hedgehog is no good what should i use instead?


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## Skadi

Melissa08 said:


> if bottle water for hedgehog is no good what should i use instead?


A simple bowl of water does just fine.


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## twobytwopets

A dish. 
There are a few potential issues with water bottles. 
It does place them in an unnatural position for drinking. Think, hedgehog yoga just to get a drink of water. 
The tube can cause dental issues as well as tounges getting trapped in the mechanism. 
If it malfunctions, without checking it's use, you wouldn't know.
It's much easier to not replace the water daily, it's still mostly full so I don't need to change it. 
Also it is significantly more a pain to clean.


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## Draenog

Unless you have a hedgehog who just loves pooping in his bowl :lol: (one of mine... he loves being a pain in the **) :lol:

A simple dish is just fine, I prefer them over bottles as well. It's really easy for bacteria to build up in a bottle since they are so hard to clean.


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## twobytwopets

Yesterday, I was out of commission from this gnarly flu. So I was only able to follow this post and not actively participate.

Here are my takes on this.



> 1. Female hedgehogs are never to be kept alone


Being solitary in nature generally means they will be happier alone. I'm not sure WHY they are solitary, is it a prey thing, food competition, or they just prefer it. Until they are sitting on a couch in a psychiatrists office we will probably never KNOW.



> 2. Only bathe hedgehogs in case of illnesses that make the bath inevitable


When they are dirty, they are dirty. Baths can stress them out as well as dry their skin. Also this goes back to nature. I don't imagine them swimming in a pond in nature unless their life depens upon it. Going back to they don't like it, if they don't need the bath, don't do it because you think it's cute. If they need a bath, then give them a bath.



> 3. Hedgehogs have to be kept in terrariums that were designed to fullfill their needs
> You get postings about "poor little things" that are kept inside of rabbit cages and definetely need to be "rescued" in an instant. One of the arguments against those wired cages is that there is too much ventilation that may cause the hedgehog to get sick (they are not supposed to be sitting in a draft) and that makes it hard for the needed heat to stay inside. I have seen people get arroused after seeing hedgehogs that "have to live in plastic boxes".
> Also, hedgehog enclosures are said to be a minimum of 120 x 60 cm/ 4 x 2 ft (for one hedgie) or 150 x 60 cm ~5 x 2 ft (for two) always with an additional "story" (loft?). Additionally, the enclosure should be designed in a way that allows hedgie owners to reach inside from the sides, not from above which might scare hedgies (it is similiar to being caught by a bird of prey).


I'm not sure what the cause for differing opinions. Larger is by far better. There are risks with any cage type. There are pros and cons with all of them, at least in my eyes.



> 4. Do not try to make your hedgehog follow your diurnal rhythm


I've messed with some of mine during the day. My work schedule somewhat dictated this. Some hogs were not ok with playing or interacting during the day. But those also were not the greatest about interacting no matter what time of day/night it was. The ones that have been ok with it were pretty much ok with anything. Most of the time though it's just easier to interact on their schedule.



> 5. You should never let your hedgehog be outside


We've had a few long discussions about this. Unless you can guarantee the full safety of your hedgehog you shouldn't allow them to play outside. Do they benefit from being outside?? Not sure. There are so many risks that the average person cannot counteract.



> 6. Wheels should not be available to your hedgehogs at all times


This is the first one that I fully disagree with. They need a functional outlet for their need to run. Yes other exercise or mental/physical outlets may take some of the need away. The dust baths could come into play. Yes, they can become wheel addicts. Providing they aren't wheeling to the point when they don't eat drink or sleep I think were ok. That's not to say that when an animal is recovering from illness or injury it may not need to be limited.



> 7. Do not expect your hedgehog to like cuddling and do not try to make him like it


Don't hold your breath for it. If it happens that's cool. If not embrace your hedgie for what he is. Don't full blown torture it so you can get the results you want.



> 8. Do not lift your hedgehog by grabbing his back


Scruffing. It can be an option for nail trims and examinations. Not all hedgehogs are comfortable with it.



> 9. Water should not be offered in bottles


No arguments there

Those were my opinions, experiences where I am now. This isn't necessarily where I was 10 years ago or where I'll be in the future.


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## octopushedge

The only problem I've ever had with offering water in dishes is occasionally Reggie decides that is the perfect place to put his toilet paper roll when he's finished playing :lol: So there are some mornings I have to pick a gross sopping cardboard roll out of it.

I very rarely give baths. I used to give foot baths somewhat frequently (just letting Reggie walk through warm water in the sink), but even he wasn't a fan of that. Now the sand mostly takes care of his poop boots, and I occasionally pick anything stubborn off with my nails. I'm not sure how I feel about letting hedgehogs swim...I've seen some "cute" floating hedgehog videos on youtube where the hedgehogs were clearly distressed but had no way out


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## twobytwopets

Yes, with water dishes you have the mess. But you see the mess, with bottles it's normally hidden in the tube.


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## Skadi

There is another difference which I just became aware of.

Usually it is highly disadviced to handle a "newly bought" hedgehog during their first week inside the new home. It is considered a bad idea, since they may need their time to adjust to their new surroundings and might well be unable to cope with another giant creature handling them at the same time.

So, as hard as it may be, one is often told to stick to watching the hedgehogs the first week in.
It is again exactly the opposite of what "American" maintenance seems to advice.



twobytwopets said:


> Keep handling her. Giving her a week to adjust to the house could undo any accepting of handling she has.


From my experience, not handling them during the first week does not make your hedgehog less accepting to it overall. I have had the opportunity to handle Lumi before I brought her home and left her alone for a week. She actually seemed less stressed afterwards (although the situation before might have been unusual to her).

But then, I guess you did not notice your hedgies being stressed during their first weeks at yours either?


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## Kalandra

Some over here still recommend a few days at a minimum. When I first got a hedgehog it was recommended to wait a week. But then again, when I first got a hedgehog she was a first generation pet, meaning her parents were supposedly both imported.

That recommendation has changed over the years.


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## twobytwopets

I don't remember specifically if I was told to wait when I got my first one. If I was I don't think I followed that advice. He may have made it out of the car before I played with him.
At almost any other time it isn't advised to stop handling them, I have to wonder why this is any different. 
We preach consistent handling to have a hedgehog that tolerates handling, so assuming the breeder handled them from 2-3 weeks until they go home, taking a week off from handling is the opposite of consistent. Go for at least a month of daily handling to none for around a week, then go back to daily handling. That in itself seems stressful, but that may be the American thinking.


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## Kalandra

I used to wonder if the initial response was because with the imports a de-stressing period was needed. I met a few of those. I remember some of the first hedgehogs I saw were going through an exotic animal auction. They were in a compartmented wooden crate, 4 to a crate. 1 male, & 3 females. They were stressed.

I never gave mine a break either. I have a photo of her sleeping on my shoulder the first night I got her.

But then again back then I was also told to keep her in a small kennel cab, keep it nice and dark for her, and to feed her a diet of kitten food, scrambled or hard boiled eggs, and bugs (grasshoppers were recommended). We did the kitten food, but she started getting fat. I never liked the kennel cabs as it was hard to get her out and opted for clear sided totes so she could see out.


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## twobytwopets

Along those lines, it's possible those initial imports weren't as accepting of the babies being handled as early as they are now. 
I've seen this with birds, imported birds are much less accepting of any intrusions to their nest.


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## Draenog

A week seems extensive. I usually let them adjust for a day (not cause they're stressed but so they can get used to their new environment)


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## twobytwopets

Here is my thought on waiting a day. 

You get your hedgehog, ideally you handle it then as well as the previous owner. You bring it home and have to get it into the cage. Chances are that your new hedgehog has had plenty of handling time that day.
So you might miss a day. There isn't much harm that could happen in that time. When I'm out with the flu, I'm not holding hedgehogs. 
A week is sounding excessive to me as well. Especially for a baby that has been handled. We will say it's 6 weeks old. The one week rule is saying don't handle it for 1/6 th of its life.


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## shinydistraction

In my initial research I recall reading somewhere to give them a day, maybe two after bringing them home to get used to their new home with all the new sounds and smells. Heh, now, in practice, when Nico first came home I held her for a few minutes (which she spent just about all of puffed up and making noise), put her in her cage, went to get dinner, came back, held her for a couple more minutes and then called it a night.

In my mind, I think the hedgehog will tell you if he needs a night to regroup. Some are just not phased by anything and others take longer to adjust. 

In hindsight, I wish I had left Nico alone that first night. That was probably the single worst day of her life. She was picked up at the breeders by a friend and had to sit at work with her for a couple of hours before getting in the car for a 3 hour trip with two dogs before making it to my house. But, even if I had, it's possible it wouldn't have made much difference.


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## Skadi

In your experience:
Did hedgehogs that were not given any time to adjust - or given only a day show any signs of stress like green poop and such?


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## twobytwopets

I don't recall seeing any big signs of stress. Maybe one green poop. 
With my first hedgehog Elvis, he was a stressed hedgehog. His parents very well may have been imported. I know he wasn't handled until he was weaned. So he would be out of this theory. He had been poop in the store. 
When I got one later and had to hold off on handling after getting them, flu, they still had some green poop.


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## Draenog

I have never seen a sign of stress and the majority of my hedgehogs weren't well handled hoglets (mainly rehomes/rescues - one wild caught animal). I've never had issues like green poop, lack of appetite or anything like that.


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## twobytwopets

I had to double check with my husband about the green poop. The one that stands out was popcorn, she was an adult rescue. She was ok with handling if someone wasn't afraid of her, but her diet was very poor when we got her. Like furry mazuri. She took to non moldy crap really well, go figure. Because it is a order online thing and the supply we were given was not going in her dish under my care, there wasn't a gradual diet change. 
Granted only the bottom food was funky, I wasn't about to feed anything from that bag.



twobytwopets said:


> I don't recall seeing any big signs of stress. Maybe one green poop.
> With my first hedgehog Elvis, he was a stressed hedgehog. His parents very well may have been imported. I know he wasn't handled until he was weaned. So he would be out of this theory. He had been poop in the store.
> When I got one later and had to hold off on handling after getting them, flu, they still had some green poop.


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## Skadi

Sorry, I don't think I fully understand. So Popcorn has had green poop, but it could as well have been caused by her poor diet?

I guess when it comes to this question, it might just depend on the hedgie's personality and background. 
General and easy answers cannot always be found. First generations might be a little more prone to stress in correlation to handling. But those are rather rare these days.
My hedgehogs have only ever shown signs of anxiety when I bathed one of them, that was the only green poop I remember (It was necessary, though, she was quite covered in her own poop and I needed to get it all out of her fur/spines). German hedgehogs are usually only bathed when they have some kind of illness, so it must have been a frightening new experience for her. 

But after their week of adjusting everything was fine so far, they were usually also already used to us passing their enclosure and changing food/water. And to our smell, since they always got a worn t-shirt.


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## twobytwopets

Honestly since popcorn was an rescue/Rehome I couldn't swear she was eating the food we were given. It could have been one of those situations where they got the food, found out hedgehogs eat cat food and switched foods but gave us the mazuri. In either case she got a quick diet change. 


I think the more experienced owners would take a play it by ear approach, but that is next to impossible to educate a new owner on the play by ear method. In order to recognize abnormal, you need to understand normal. 

With bathing I can't help but say it's more for our benefit than theirs in most cases. Yes there are exceptions. But somewhat regular bathing gets them a bit more accustomed to it. When they are sick, they are already experiencing stresses.


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## rodanthi

*my rambling *

Hey  I thought I'd drop in with my 2 cents on this (not that there is much to add). It's so nice to see a discussion about it! I was in a few UK-based hedgehog communities, but have found the aggressive reaction to any questionning of why we do things a certain way intolerable. It's very important to examine why we do things a particular way (especially whether it is for our benefit or the animals), otherwise how do we know we are doing it the best way? It also left me unable to discuss things others were doing which I thought was unecessarily cruel or dangerous. I really like considering their needs and trying to work out what is good for them. On the whole Hedgehog central has been very nice though.

Sorry for not working out the quote tool very well...



Skadi said:


> *1. Female hedgehogs are never to be kept alone*
> I think the biggest pointer here is that their wild relatives are solitary. They are not mentally wired to be 'social animals'. So they do not *need* friends. Other arguments against housing them together have already been discussed. Having said that, it does provide variety and enrichment to their daily life which is something captive animals need as much of as possible! My balance is that my two are housed separately but often interact outside their enclosures (either free roaming, or cuddling with me and my partner, or in the bath tub together...). That gives them some excitement but doesn't mean they are left unsupervised and they do not share food or litter trays etc.
> 
> If you are going to house them together I think it makes sense to follow the same precautions as you do with social animals - always have sufficient equipment on hand to house them separately if they need to be split rapidly. Follow all the usual rules of introductions over a long period. Take personality and sufficient space into account. Have multiple locations for food etc. Don't force them.
> 
> I've seen the relationships of social animals (with plenty of space, hides, and resources to share) turn nasty very quickly and I wouldn't really want to have that worry if the animal is not naturally inclined to form a community.
> 
> *2. Only bathe hedgehogs in case of illnesses that make the bath inevitable*
> With this one I think a bath is sometimes necessary. No, they do not bath in the wild. However, the management of waste in the wild is very different. Most of the dirt on my hedgehog comes off his wheel because he poops and then he flings it around. Naturally he wouldn't get this covered in poop because he wouldn't remain in one small area with his poop. Being covered in your own faeces is not hygienic. It is a nice place for bacteria to breed, and some waste products are expelled because your body doesn't want them, so being covered in them might not be very good for you.
> 
> Having said that, deep baths are stressful and sometimes I think really, really cruel, especially making them float. They don't have any other choice in that situation.... I can do everything I need in half an inch of warm water, if they don't need rehabilitation or exercise why would you make them swim? They paddle about and remove almost all the poopy boots on their own in a little puddle of a bath. I don't put water on their backs unless I have to because they don't like it. If I do I used a little eggcup or something. They seem to find it much less stressful in the bath tub than in a small space (they don't scrabble up the sides in the bath tub?). In a routine and with plenty of treats they seem to have become very adjusted to it.
> 
> Washing their feet regularly keeps them hygienic (by standards of safety, not by human standards). It makes it possible for me to see any injuries before they get nasty. It lets me see the quick so I can clip nails as safely as possible. I never use soap or oatmeal as I don't want to interfere with their skin any more than is necessary, and I don't know what the natural pH of hedgehog skin is (e.g. what is good for our skin may not be good for theirs, just as different parts of the human body sometimes need different soaps because the pH is different).
> 
> *3. Hedgehogs have to be kept in terrariums that were designed to fullfill their needs*
> Ventilation...there is a difference between ventilation and being in a draft. Somewhere around the midpoint would seem to make sense? I'm not sure why ventilation is important but it seems to be for a lot of animals including humans. I guess at the least, lots of germs are airborne and it seems unecessary to contain them all in with the hedgehog. The hedgehog and its waste will produce gases of some description I guess. A draft might make them cold but between heating and making sure the draft isn't at their floor level I don't see how the air movement itself could bother them.
> 
> I'm not sure what the issue with heating is. I only had issues when I had failures in a cold flat and insufficient spares. I never had a problem heating a 3*2 CHE as long as enough equipment was available and working. When I first got Hector he lived in my bedroom with me and his lamps used to keep us both at a lovely 25C!
> 
> Space... I think they need space to run about after their enrichment. The zoozone 2 I think is the minimum recommended for one hog, but mine have been in those and I always thought it looked like a tiny prison. After the wheel bed tube and dishes there was only a very small space left in the middle. I've had a 3*2 C&C and currently have 5 foot by 2 foot vivs which I think I am comfortable with them living in. I try to imagine if I was their size. Never mind that naturally they are supposed to very physically active so they need space to move about a lot.
> 
> They are stupid enough that I think giving the opportunity to fall off anything very high or catch legs and break them make barred cages an unecessary risk.
> 
> *4. Do not try to make your hedgehog follow your diurnal rhythm*
> Completely agree with this. Waking them up in the daytime is selfish, even if they don't seem to mind (being woken in the daytime scares the pants off Hector, but Alba is pretty cool when it happens). Lots of animals including us find being woken from sleep unpleasant at best and frightening at worst. I can't imagine a consistently interrupted sleep pattern is very good for them, as rotated shift working and especially nights is correlated with higher incidences of all sorts of major diseases in humans. I'm not risking it. It doesn't hurt me to cuddle them after 9pm. If it hurts you then you shouldn't have a hedgehog.
> 
> If they get up of their own accord then I can't see a problem but that's different.
> 
> The UK community as a whole seems really bad for forcing their hedgehogs diurnal and generally don't seem to have any feeling of it being cruel. Which saddens me.
> 
> *5. You should never let your hedgehog be outside*
> I would only do this if they were awake anyway, probably on my lawn inside a playpen (if I had a lawn or a playpen lol). Most places (definietely in the UK anyway) nights are too cold to be worth risking so you'd want them to be happy doing it in the day. Even then they move too quick for free roaming to really be a good idea to me. I'd rather use my lawn than somewhere 'wild' or somewhere public. Because of stuff like parasites and pesticides and toxic plants. Your own grass lawn is the only place you can really minimise stuff like that. I'm sure grass is probably an interesting experience for them but as nocturnal prey species I suspect being in an exposed space in the sunshine is not a shy hogs idea of fun. Maybe a well-socialised one would like it.
> 
> *6. Wheels should not be available to your hedgehogs at all times*
> They probably do get addicted to them. But I think that's better than them not getting enough exercise. If they have enough enrichment then they shouldn't be completely reliant on their wheel anyway. If they don't have enough enrichment then they probably need the exercise!
> 
> *7. Do not expect your hedgehog to like cuddling and do not try to make him like it*
> For reasons already said I think some socialisation is important for vets and caring for them at home. Any further handling is enrichment if that is what they like. So Alba has just enough to keep her tame (usually covered by her day to day care) because she doesn't like being held and it seems cruel to stress her out doing more than she can learn to tolerate. Whereas Hector *seems* to actively seek out snuggling against my neck or lying on my stomach, so that's basically an activity for him. Variation in sleeping places.
> 
> *8. Do not lift your hedgehog by grabbing his back*
> I don't know what its like for hogs but at college they told us scruffing can cause their eyes to prolapse if you do it too hard, which is why it can be dangerous. If they're laid back and you can do it gently then its a useful trick to have - when necessary. But if they're stressed and they're struggling then it just seems mean and also more likely to cause them injury then. I guess it must be frightening for a prey animal to be picked up like that too.
> 
> *9. Water should not be offered in bottles*
> Agree with this. There are plenty of arguments against it. The arguments for it don't seem to make a lot of sense (e.g. you can put more water in a bottle - this shouldn't matter if you are changing it as often as you are supposed to?).
> 
> The only time I can think of a bowl being bad is if you're travelling, because a bowl would slosh everywhere, but then you should be taking regular rest breaks for the animals you are travelling with anyway. So offer them water from a bowl at each stop.
> I wouldn't give a bottle either because all of the issues with it being potentially dangerous will be worse in a vehicle.
> 
> I have been reading different things on other countries' informational websites. I want to apologize in advance for not being able to remember all the reasoning behind those rules:
> 
> 2. Wooden enclosures are unsanitary and something about them is said to attract mites
> I think about this one a lot - we keep many other animals in wooden housing in the UK without issue with mites? For example rabbits and guinea pigs. But then some types of mites are ever present in wooden chicken coops, and people just take that as a fact of life and try to keep them under control. Maybe they are very environment and host-species specific?
> 
> I worry a lot about how you properly clean a wooden enclosure indoors unless it is correctly sealed, as stuff would soak into it? My hamsters had a lovely wooden wheel once but it became really disgusting very quickly. So all wooden enrichment that I give to the hedgehogs or hamsters is regularly checked and if it becomes too gross I put it in the bin. I clean them sometimes but it doesn't seem possible to clean them often enough AND dry them sufficiently. Maybe I'm missing something.
> 
> 6. Sand and wood shavings may cause respiratory problems
> I think it depends on what sort you get. With particulate bedding you always have to be aware of how it may affect their eyes and respiratory systems. There's also the issue of things catching in the boys sheathes too. I don't know anyone this has happened to though.


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## TweezernToothpick

*Wolly Buttons*

The advice about housing hogs single, is sound. They are not wired to be communicable, with exception of the 'deed to breed.' I am a past breeder, now beginning up another breeding program. Please be sure to do homework, and for sure if you are new to attempting a breeding program or a new higlet pet parent. Get a license, go to meet your exotic pet vet in your city, and have a mentor/ your breeder to assist you. Pet shoos do not even come close to offering you the care that is necessary. These lovely animals can be tricky to breed, and you need to have patience. Keep a journal for your own records, and especially if you need to go to the vet. Otherwise, keep them seperate at all times. 
********This site has the best advice I have ever seen. Take heed to this great counsel.
Goodluck &#128522;
Dogs, frogs and hogs.


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