# Holistic diet?



## Kitty (Aug 19, 2013)

Hello everyone,

After some research on diets and going to various pet stores to get sample bags I've ended up with a mix of: Natural Balance Duck and green pea, premium edge healthy weight, and pure vita for my 3 month old hedgehog.

My question is, is there a more holistic/raw approach to feeding hedgehogs? Owning multiple reptiles, ferrets, and dogs that all eat raw I have colonies of mealworms, crickets, silkworms, earthworms, phoenix worms, roaches ect. along with a freezer full of assorted meats ready to go.

I've read that some are trying to do a mix of 1/3 meats, 1/3 veggies/fruits, and 1/3 insects. What are your experiences and suggestions? I'd much rather have my little guy on a holistic diet rather than on cat food.

Thank you in advanced!


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

There's very little information out there on trying to do a natural diet for hedgehogs, mostly because we don't know their exact requirements - the most we have is that it's similar to dogs/cats, since they do fine on their kibble. There's a couple people giving it a shot anyway, but none of them are frequent posters to the forum right now. I'd suggest checking out this sticky - http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/23066-raw-home-cooked-diets.html At the bottom are some threads where the concept's been discussed by people, and at least two of the threads are by people currently feeding a raw or home-cooked diet, so you could shoot them a PM to see what they've learned so far and how it's going.  LizardGirl has also written a hedgehog care book that's free to download and there's a section regarding home-cooked diets in it - http://www.westcoasthedgehogs.com/files/hedgehogbook/download.html

If you do give it a shot, we'd love to know what you plan on doing (meal plan, how you balance it, etc.) since there's not much information out there! I know I personally find it a very interesting topic since I also like the idea of feeding a more natural/holistic diet to animals, and hope to do so for future animals (though I'm unsure about hedgehogs just yet).


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## Kitty (Aug 19, 2013)

Thank you, I've read through them and there's some great information.

Just as a small update, as of last night I tried a small sample of raw, I placed two bowls in the cage: 
1 full of cat food mix, 
and 
1 full of a pinkie mouse lightly dusted with calcium powder phosphorus and d3 free(frozen and allowed to thaw throughout the night), 1 day old quail calcium powder phosphorus and d3 free (frozen and allowed to thaw throughout the night) , 1/2 teaspoonful of turkey and vegetable (peas and apples) baby food, 1 teaspoonful of mixed frozen veggies (collard greens and brocolli) , 1 teaspoonful of mixed frozen fruit (papaya, strawberry, and blueberries), and 3 small dubia roaches and 1 chopped up phoenix worm (ewwww)

The verdict? The cat food is untouched, and, almost everything in the other bowl was eaten throughout the night with the exception of some of the fruits and veggies.

So, step 1) I don't have a picky eater, so I am going to go ahead with step 2) and make a nightly meal plan for each week.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Wow, that's an adventuresome hedgie! :lol: Glad she was so enthusiastic about this cool new food. I hope it continues to go well. And I'd love it if you checked back in a periodic update on what you're doing & how she likes it.  Like I said, I'm way too interested in all of this stuff, so I love reading about what different meal plans everyone's doing & how it works out.


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## Kitty (Aug 19, 2013)

Quick update:

Terwilliger is doing great on raw, solid poops, normal in color, and compared to when he was on cat food there is considerably less poop.

Here is a weekly menu that I've tried since my last check in:

Monday: 2 tablespoons of full raw grind of buffalo, 1 vertebrae of chicken neck, 1 tablespoon of mixed veggies (mostly dark leafy greens), 1 tablespoon of mixed fruits, 4 phoenix worms, 2 dubia roaches

Tuesday: 2 tablespoons of NW Naturals commercial raw (http://cms.nw-naturals.net/raw/) chicken, 1 vertebrae of chicken neck, 1 tablespoon of mixed veggies, 1 tablespoon of mixed fruits, 5 calci-worms, 4 mealworms

Wednesday: 3 pinkie mice (dusted with Ca powder), 2 day old quail (dusted with Ca powder), 1 tablespoon of mixed veggies, 1 tablespoon of mixed fruits, 5 crickets, 2 dubia roaches

Thursday: 2 tablespoons of NW naturals commercial raw lamb, 1 vertebrae of chicken neck, 1 tablespoon of mixed veggies, 1 tablespoon of mixed fruits, 1 silkworm, 5 red wrigglers

Friday: 2 tablespoons of full grind turkey, 1 vertebrae of chicken neck, 1 tablespoon of mixed veggies, 1 tablespoon of mixed fruits, 5 calci-worms, 3 crickets

Saturday: 2 tablespoons of full grind rabbit, 1 vertebrae of chicken neck, 1 tablespoon of mixed veggies, 1 tablespoon of mixed fruits, 3 phoenix worms, 2 dubia roaches

Sunday: 1 tablespoon of chicken and sweet potato baby food, 1 tablespoon of fruit blend baby food, 1 tablespoon of vegetable blend baby food, 1 vertebrae of chicken neck, 3 calci-worms, 2 phoenix worms, 2 mealworms.

So far, he hasn't rejected any of the food, and close to all of it is gone every morning. I present everything frozen around 9PM every evening and remove the leftovers at 6am.

Since I've never had a hedgehog before I'm not positive of how his energy levels reflect to the norm but he is constantly running his wheel, and he never appears lethargic.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

That's so cool, thanks for sharing a full menu! How big is the chicken neck vertebrae? Does he have any trouble chewing on it? (I just realized I was typing 'she' in my previous post, not sure why. :lol


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## ajweekley (Aug 8, 2013)

I hesitate to ask: what are pinkie mice? 

Also, where do you get chicken neck vertebrae?


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## Kitty (Aug 19, 2013)

The vertebrae are about the size of a pinkie nail, he doesn't have any problems chewing on it, I give him the vertebrae so he can chew on it and clean his teeth. 

Pinkie mice are essentially baby mice that are 1 day - 1 week old.

I buy full chicken necks at a local butchers or at a wholesale meat company (I buy it by the case)


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## Kitty (Aug 19, 2013)

Also, I feed my other animals diatomaceous earth daily mixed in with their food. Does anyone have any experience with DE and hedgehogs?


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Ooooh, I didn't realize they were so small! Good thing to know. 

The only thing I've heard regarding DE and hedgies is sprinkling it on top of them for mites - and most of what I've heard regarding that is that it's not guaranteed to work and it's easier to use Revolution. I haven't heard anything about feeding it, as far as I can remember. What's the purpose of feeding it?


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## Kitty (Aug 19, 2013)

I feed DE to help with internal parasites, it helps with joints, keeps coats shiny, and amazingly it helps eliminate some nasty poop smell. I also personally take it for the same benefits


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Ooooh, that's interesting! I guess I would see if your vet knows anything? I'm not sure if anyone else on here would have information about it with hedgies, though it's possible. My guess would be that if it's safe for your other animals, I'd guess it'd be safe for hedgies as well - they're not much smaller than ferrets, and they'd be about the same size as some reptiles.


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## shaelikestaquitos (Feb 2, 2010)

This is really cool because I feed PMR to my cats and dog 

Unfortunately my hog has been eating kibble since he was a baby and will not even touch wet food  Wondering how I'll get him to switch to something like this!


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## Kitty (Aug 19, 2013)

I'll definitely have to ask my vet about the DE, I'm very interested and since it's part of the rest of my pets routine I'd like to keep everything as uniform as possible. 

Terwilliger is only ~3 months old, I was surprised how easy it was to switch over.

A trick that I've used with finicky eaters converting to raw it to crush up some kibble and sprinkle it over the new food, sometimes it jump starts them to try it. It's just so much more healthy than processed kibbles I feel.


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## shaelikestaquitos (Feb 2, 2010)

Kitty said:


> I'll definitely have to ask my vet about the DE, I'm very interested and since it's part of the rest of my pets routine I'd like to keep everything as uniform as possible.
> 
> Terwilliger is only ~3 months old, I was surprised how easy it was to switch over.
> 
> A trick that I've used with finicky eaters converting to raw it to crush up some kibble and sprinkle it over the new food, sometimes it jump starts them to try it. It's just so much more healthy than processed kibbles I feel.


Honestly it doesn't work for him lol. He's not finicky about what kind of kibble, but the moment the texture is off he will not eat it -___- he used to be a bit more adventurous around 6-8 weeks, but after that... no dice. I feel like he is even more difficult than my cats (and cats are hard to switch to raw once they start eating kibble!) lol!

I tried getting him on a softer food -- I tried wet food, The Honest Kitchen, some freeze dried stuff... no luck yet lol.

I highly doubt DE is toxic to hedgehogs. The dosage for them would be super small though. Honestly I wouldn't even bother.


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## raurora (Sep 6, 2013)

What is full grind rabbit and turkey and are the roaches dead? How much is the financial cost of this? I am currently switching my hedgie from Purina to Blue Buffalo but I would like to get him to eat some fruits and veggies and meat. So far he does not like ham


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## Erizo (Jul 25, 2012)

> I've read that some are trying to do a mix of 1/3 meats, 1/3 veggies/fruits, and 1/3 insects. What are your experiences and suggestions?


This sounds pretty reasonable as a guideline. Sophie cannot have dry kibble, having recovered from the severe cystitis that it caused. Now that she is thriving on a wet food diet, this is kind of where I am. She does well with meat canned cat foods and baby foods, but eats like a pig. So - I have increased the mixed vegetable baby foods in her blend to a much higher percentage. Veggies are healthy, but have a low-energy-density. That is, she can eat her fill without gaining weight if there are enough veggies in her blend. Most nights she is getting three dishes of food (sometimes four dishes - two early-night and then some more late-night). Each dish has 4 grams of meat food, 10 grams of veggie food, and 1.5 grams of ground kibble.

The ingredients for her food blends are all store bought. I'm not up to cooking from scratch (at least not yet), and therefore she is probably getting a better balance of nutrients from the store bought foods than I would achieve on my own at this point.

She also gets 7 late-afternoon live mealies, 5 late-night mealies, 4 - 7 early-night crickets, and 4 - 8 late-night crickets.

(Mealies are coated with Maxi/Guard Cleansing Oral Gel.)

(Crickets are bought 1,000 at a time live, fed cantaloupe and apple for 24 hours, then frozen.)

She has never shown in interest in eating fruit, which is fine for now because she doesn't need the sugars.

It costs a lot more than just serving dry kibble day after day, forever. But, it is manageable. A bag of kibble lasts through its expiration date. Bulk mealies and crickets are cheap. I'm serving about four cans/jars of meats and vegetables a week. Those are something under $4 a week.

A custom diet takes a lot of time to develop, but actually preparing and feeding it takes almost no time at all.
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I got away from kibbles completely unexpectedly. Everything was fine until Sophie got so sick. I've just recently found www.catinfo.org - written by Lisa Pierson, DVM. Very interesting stuff there. She is totally opposed to feeding cats kibble and makes a pretty strong case. Most of this stuff is not anything that I've ever heard of. Part of the site talks about DIY recipes for feeding. That isn't something that I'm prepared to do now, It certainly seems to be the direction I'm heading, though. My biggest concern with a DIY is that I might have nutrient levels out of whack. Wish there was a hedgie vitamin that I could give. Ha!

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> If you do give it a shot, we'd love to know what you plan on doing (meal plan, how you balance it, etc.) since there's not much information out there!


Yes, I would certainly give serious looks at annotated menus and recipes. Owner comments would add a lot of information, probably as much as the recipes themselves. For all the talk around the subject, details are hard to find which results in a lot of the talk being unproductive.

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Kitty and Lilysmommy are way more experienced / knowledgeable than I am, but I stumble along and pick up every tidbit of info that I can and work it into what's good for Sophie.

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I prepare a couple dishes of Sophie's food in this video. I made this one to show the scale, but it's a decent demo of preparing her food and how easy it is if everything is organized.





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Warning: long and boring. Ha!

All talk, more like a podcast than a video.





Stuff actually happens.




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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Erizo said:


> Yes, I would certainly give serious looks at annotated menus and recipes. Owner comments would add a lot of information, probably as much as the recipes themselves. For all the talk around the subject, details are hard to find which results in a lot of the talk being unproductive.


Yeah, that's why I get so excited any time someone mentions they're looking into it. :lol: A bunch of us were interested in trying things like this a few years ago, but none of us had tried raw/home-made diets before and were too hesitant to take the leap and risk doing something wrong. So the more people we have that already have experience doing raw/home-made diets for other pets and are willing to do so with hedgies & share info...the better! I've been trying to keep all of the threads like this on the Raw/Home-made sticky for easy access for anyone else trying to get started. Your information is helpful too, especially if others need to prepare liquid diets! 

(I also have to admit, I'm being selfish in keeping all of this stuff in a handy sticky - I want to be able to find it in a few years when I have a hedgehog again and want to try out a raw/home-made diet if hedgie agrees. :lol

Edit - Also, I'm pretty sure full grind is raw meat and bones all ground up finely (correct me if I'm wrong, someone!). Bones are ground up so they're still getting the benefit of the calcium, but without the risk of choking on a bone (though that risk is less with raw bones than cooked).

This sticky might help, as far as some ways to try introducing fresh foods to your hedgie - http://www.hedgehogcentral.com/forums/12-diet-nutrition/23058-offering-fresh-foods-treats.html  Cost varies though, depending on what meat you get, what forms you get food in (fresh vs. baby food vs. frozen, etc.) and so on. I found baby food to be the cheapest and easiest way to give Lily a variety of foods, though maybe not the freshest. But with only one hedgehog and a family that wasn't very adventuresome with getting different fruits/veggies, it was a method that kept me from wasting a lot of food/money. And she liked it quite a bit, and I was able to offer a good variety of meat/veggies/fruits in her baby food mix.


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## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

Would it be possible to do this without feeding the pinkies?? 

I have pet rats and a mouse so feeding even a frozen thawed pinkie might break my heart a little. 

DO hedgies need all that extra calcium?


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## Erizo (Jul 25, 2012)

> Would it be possible to do this without feeding the pinkies??


I think one of the most important parts of this discussion (and others that are similar) is exploring the choice of healthy foods that we can give our hedgies and getting a feel for the range of nutritional values.

The people that are doing completely homemade, custom foods - I can't even imagine doing that. We all have different priorities and different comfort levels.

Pinkies are totally optional. I'm not feeding them yet because I still need to learn a few things. But if I can buy in an affordable quantity and hold frozen for a reasonable amount of time, then they may be a perfect addition to Sophie's selection of foods. A low maintenance item; affordable; can be fed one, two, or a few at a time; a healthy addition; it appears the acceptance rate by hedgies is pretty good . . . . There are a lot of advantages that would work well with the direction that I'm going.
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The calcium I don't know about. I've never seen much about special needs for hedgehogs. Protein and fat ranges are almost entirely what I hear about. I do worry about moving to a 'healthier' diet and it's being skewed high or low on some elements. Another reason to be cautious and ask lots of questions.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

There's some information on hedgehog nutritional values in West Coast Hedgehog's care book. The pretty common ratio for calcium: phosphorus for mammals/birds is 1.5:1. The issue comes from a lot of foods being higher in phosphorus than calcium - but there's some veggies that are great sources of calcium, so doing research on that helps. However, foods that are much higher in phosphorus, like some insects and immature feeder animals, need to be dusted with calcium powder to make up the difference & make sure there's no bone/joint/etc. issues that come from lack of calcium. The immature feeder animals (like pinkies) aren't that high in calcium because with just being born, the bones haven't developed much yet.

I'm sure you can work out a raw/home-made diet without using pinky mice. But make sure you do a lot of research on feeding raw & balancing diets before you start working out a menu. It might be easier to start out with working with a raw commercial diet - Kitty's using one for some of her days, and I know at least one of the others trying out raw diets (thread found on the Raw/Home-made sticky) was basing his diet around a commercial one as well.


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## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

That makes sense about the calcium. 

Oh yeah definatly more research is in order before I'd attempt anything like this, I really wouldn't want to risk her health at all. One of the biggest reason I still feed my rats a lab block as their staple is because it's so hard to make a diet that reaches their exact needs.


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## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

I am just starting on a natural diet for my new baby, Sebastian. He has taken to it beautifully! He finished off his whole dish last night of cooked, whole ground chicken (includes bones, organs, and meat) mixed with vegetables and he also had three mealies, two waxworms, and three crickets to go with it. I am going to start gut loading the bugs now that we're not on the kibble, so hopefully they'll be a bit more nutritional. As soon as he's eaten through the pound of cooked chicken I bought, I'll switch him over to raw meats. I started him on cooked just to get him used to the diet. 

I buy my meats from this wonderful local store called Woody's Pet Deli here in the Twin Cities. They've got two shops, one in Minneapolis and one in St. Paul (even though I live in Minneapolis, the St. Paul one is closer, so I shop there), and they produce raw and cooked whole grind meat pet foods made with human grade meats. They are fantastic. We've been feeding our cats and ferrets their food for a couple of years now, and I'm so happy to start feeding Sebastian their excellent meats as well. I bought the veggies from them, too. 

They sell frozen cooked vegetables that can be thawed and mixed in with the meats - intended for dogs, of course. I am mixing at a one-to-one ratio of veggies to meat. Does that sound like the right mix to you folks? Should I do more veggies, or less? I want to be sure he's not getting too much protein, after all. I could add some fresh veggies to it, if he'll take them. He readily took what was mixed in with the meat. 

Let me know what you think. Yes, in a way Sebastian and others have to be guinea pigs for these new ways of eating, but so long as they remain happy and healthy and we do our best based on our limited knowledge of hedgehog nutrition, I don't believe we will do any major harm. We know the basics - we simply need to fine tune the formula. It will take a brave few of us to start this so that others will feel more comfortable with raw and natural feeding, and I'm willing to step up and do it because I feel it's the best thing for my hedgehog.

At the end of my last hedgehog's life, I saw how difficult it was for him to chew that kibble. They aren't meant to be eating nothing but crunchy biscuits. I imagine it isn't good for their teeth, although a vet never confirmed that Henry's teeth were worn down or anything. Still, I had to start watering down the kibble for him to eat it. I don't want Sebastian to go through that.


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Trust me, I'm thrilled that we have more and more of you guys that are brave enough to give this a try!  I plan to jump on the wagon once I have hedgies again, but that'll be a couple years yet. I think it'd be fantastic to have more hedgie owners feeding natural diets, or at least incorporating more natural elements into their hedgie's diet, and I think that's more likely once they see others doing it & not having major problems with it.

As far as your meat/veggie ratio, reading the DIY portion of Kimberly's care book, protein should be around 25-30%, and carbs at 40% (and fat 10-13%, and fiber 10-15%), so you might want to bump up the veggies a little? Don't forget the insects are adding protein too!


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## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

Lilysmommy said:


> Trust me, I'm thrilled that we have more and more of you guys that are brave enough to give this a try!  I plan to jump on the wagon once I have hedgies again, but that'll be a couple years yet. I think it'd be fantastic to have more hedgie owners feeding natural diets, or at least incorporating more natural elements into their hedgie's diet, and I think that's more likely once they see others doing it & not having major problems with it.
> 
> As far as your meat/veggie ratio, reading the DIY portion of Kimberly's care book, protein should be around 25-30%, and carbs at 40% (and fat 10-13%, and fiber 10-15%), so you might want to bump up the veggies a little? Don't forget the insects are adding protein too!


Excellent  I am going to try adding some fresh, non-cooked veggies and see if he will take those. If he won't, I'll just buy more of the cooked veg mix and add it in.

I was vaguely contemplating dubia roaches today, but not only do I absolutely hate roaches, but my boyfriend put his foot down and said, "No, no roaches. Period." Crickets will have to do! I bought some more crickets this afternoon and they are chowing down on tomato, kale, and chard. Once I feel they've chowed enough, into the freezer they go.


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## Erizo (Jul 25, 2012)

I've been increasing Sophie's veggies in her entree blends to increase volume and lower energy density. She's been going bonkers over all the good eats.

At night, she knows darn well I'll be salting the cage with a few crickets and she comes running out to start the hunt. As in, she actually lets me watch her!

I got some of the three smallest sizes of pinkies on the way. (From 1.5 - 2.0 grams through 2.5 - 3.0 grams each.)

I also got a bag of 'Extra Small, 1 - 3 day chickens'. Just .13 each to add on, so no loss if they don't work out. Does anybody know anything about feeder chicks? They are 1.00 - 1.99 ounces. I won't offer her one (or part of one) until I learn more, but it seemed silly not to add a bag to the pinky order.

Her seemingly full restoration to full health now seems to also be showing itself with increased wheel time. It’s only been two weeks of trending, but if it holds it is a big change. She has been over an hour for 14 straight nights. She is averaging 1:44 during that time. Up from 0:55 for the previous 14 nights. Or up from 1:04 for the previous 30 nights.

I picked out a 30 night range from what looked to be her peak period and it came to an average of 3:20. I don’t care if she ever hits this crazy high average again, but am glad to not be seeing two nights a week in the 15 minute range and barely breaking an hour on any night. Only two weeks though. Too soon to say if the trend is actually a new thing.

Average speed remains way down at 1.35 - 1.45 mph (down from 1.8 - 1.90 mph), but I think that her average speed was always very high. Hard to say for sure; I mean, where do you go for data comparisons?

.


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## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

Wow it's really great to hear how healthy your hedgie is eating this way. 

I didn't want to imply anyone was doing anything wrong by trying this. I was just saying I just need to do the research before I would feel comfortable doing it, So I am gonna read a little more about it and keep following this thread. 

i


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## SiouxzieKinz (Oct 10, 2013)

http://www.richsoil.com/diatomaceous-earth.jsp The only time I had used this stuff was in Texas where we had horrible fire ants. This was suggested by the garden people at Home Depot as a safe/non-insecticide way to get rid of them.


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## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

ceopet said:


> Wow it's really great to hear how healthy your hedgie is eating this way.
> 
> I didn't want to imply anyone was doing anything wrong by trying this. I was just saying I just need to do the research before I would feel comfortable doing it, So I am gonna read a little more about it and keep following this thread.
> 
> i


I totally don't blame you. I was nervous about starting my ferrets and my cats on raw feeding, but so far the results have been fantastic and they love it. I think because I am so comfortable with raw feeding my other animals and I have experience with it, I am more comfortable trying it with my hedgehog. Had I never done anything like it before, I would probably stick with kibble, especially considering most hedgehogs do just fine on it.

Still, there are amazing health benefits to raw feeding in ferrets, and I'm seeing a lot of benefits for my cats as well, so I know some of those benefits will transfer over to a hedgehog. Many of the problems inherent with a kibble diet in those animals will still affect a hedgehog. Problems with the hard texture on their teeth, for example; also, the simple fact that their systems are not meant to process many of the filler ingredients used in kibble. Now, we do feed our hedgehogs high quality kibbles to cut down on those problems, but nevertheless, there are still fillers in there that are cut out when you feed naturally.

So, I highly recommend it for anyone who feels comfortable enough  If you don't, you don't - and I don't begrudge anyone their kibbles, whether they're feeding a hedgehog or any other animal. I know kibble is a lot easier, and there are some great kibbles out there that will keep your pets healthy and happy.

As for me, I am going to give Sebastian his first raw food tonight, rather than the cooked chicken he was getting. I've actually had to increase the amount of food I was giving him because it wasn't enough. I thought I was giving him plenty, but I started giving him 50% more and he STILL finishes it all off! He's a growing boy, though, and he's quilling, so he needs all of the noms he can get. Still, it's far more food than the amount he was eating kibble-wise. I understand the meat and veggies contain a lot of water, so they aren't as dense as kibble is, but still... He's a little fatty, he is.

I've noticed far fewer poops from him since the switch, but that's to be expected. I get that from all of my raw-fed critters. When they eat kibble, there's a lot that they can't digest that simply passes right through them and they poop right out. I still think I need to add more veggies to his mix, however; I'd like to see more poops than I'm getting right now. It's not that he's not pooping, he left me a nice poop in his salad and bug dish the other day  I've been giving him "salad" - either fresh kale or chard, whichever we pick from the garden that night for the guinea pigs and bunnies - along with his crickets, mealies, and waxworms. He eats some of it, anyway, but not as much as I'd like to see. I'll have to get a wider variety of veggies just for him, I suppose.

That's my natural diet update!  Sebastian would say hi, but he's napping and very crabby right now, with the quilling. I'll leave him be until tonight.


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## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

I've been trying to incoperate more natrual things in her diet but she won't eat most veggies, one of the reasons I am not comfortable with trying this yet, Also it's hard to find replacements for feeder mice, they seem to have a great nurtiion balence for hedgies but I can't find other replacements, and I don't feel comfortable with that, it'd just feel too weird to me as a rat and mouse owner  

I have been giving her cooked meat and meat baby foods which she'll gobble down, I jsut wish I could find more veg that she likes, I might be able to work something out if I could figure out more veg but she snubs a lot of them lol


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## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

I still find it awesome that you guys are doing it though, and that your hedgies are doing so well, WHich is why I am still watching this thread and offering her more natrual foods in addtion to her kibble  Maybe after more reasearch seeing how'd she'd take to it


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Ceopet, have you tried mixing veggie baby foods with meat baby foods to see if you can trick her into eating them that way? Or cooking veggies with meat so they get some of the flavor? I and GoodandPlenty have both had success with the baby food method, and I know someone else had success with cooking them together. Might be worth a try, if you haven't already!


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## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

I'll have to try those. I do tend to buy the like chicken and veggie dinner and she likes it and the turkey and veg. so cooking some meat and veg together might just work I will have to see


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## GoodandPlenty (Feb 4, 2012)

I was shocked at my success in getting Sophie to accept any veggies. She had always refused all fresh veggies. Our first effort with baby food veggies was not a big success. Too much, too soon. I adjusted the approach and added much less, about 2 grams of veggies to about 6 grams of meat. Meat was still the dominant taste. This was a huge success and paved the way to increasing the ratio. 

I now have her on 4 grams of meat per 'entree dish' with 8 - 10 grams of veggies (and as high as 12 grams). Following the last major shift in her diet (reducing kibble to 1 1/2 grams ground into each dish), she has been eating like a pig and a healthy, low calorie filler was a necessity - veggies. 

Mixed vegetable baby foods (Gerber, Beechnut) tend to be based on peas or carrots. Sophie prefers pea based mixed vegetables. She is doing well with accepting the carrot based mixes, but I've had to tweak her offerings a lot more to get that. They are quite a few 'single ingredient' veggies and you can add taste variety with them. 

The meat and vegetable baby foods, for the most part, are mostly veggies. Sometimes I think the meat is in the ingredients as an excuse to promote it on the label. They can be good choices for introducing veggies, though.


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## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

ceopet said:


> I've been trying to incoperate more natrual things in her diet but she won't eat most veggies, one of the reasons I am not comfortable with trying this yet, Also it's hard to find replacements for feeder mice, they seem to have a great nurtiion balence for hedgies but I can't find other replacements, and I don't feel comfortable with that, it'd just feel too weird to me as a rat and mouse owner
> 
> I have been giving her cooked meat and meat baby foods which she'll gobble down, I jsut wish I could find more veg that she likes, I might be able to work something out if I could figure out more veg but she snubs a lot of them lol


Feeder mice are not at all required  I am a rat owner and I, too, am not really comfortable with pinkies, so I won't feed them. Pinkies are not actually that high in nutrition - they are SUPER high in fat, though. In general, not only are they not necessary, but unless your hedgehog needs to gain weight, they aren't even that good for them. You can stick with mealworms, they'll give your hedgehog better nutrition in the long run, especially if you gut load them. I know those aren't much fun either, but I'd MUCH rather see a worm die than a cute little baby mouse or rat 

I highly recommend the mixing the meat and veg option. That's how I've got Sebastian's meat prepared. Granted, he seems willing to eat just about anything, but I think he'd be far less willing to eat the veggies by themselves. At the very least, he wouldn't gobble them all up like he does.

Imagine you're being offered two things - a nice, juicy steak, or a plain salad with no dressing or meat or anything on it. Which would you choose (and I am assuming you aren't a vegetarian, lol)? Now, if you were to dress that salad with chicken, add some blue cheese, almonds, and apples with a bit of champagne vinaigrette on the side (that is the Blue Apple salad from Bruegger's Bagels, where I am employed - and it is good stuff) you might be more enticed. Your hedgehog certainly doesn't need the blue cheese or the vinaigrette, but you get the picture


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## ceopet (Sep 20, 2013)

lessthansign3 said:


> Feeder mice are not at all required  I am a rat owner and I, too, am not really comfortable with pinkies, so I won't feed them. Pinkies are not actually that high in nutrition - they are SUPER high in fat, though. In general, not only are they not necessary, but unless your hedgehog needs to gain weight, they aren't even that good for them. You can stick with mealworms, they'll give your hedgehog better nutrition in the long run, especially if you gut load them. I know those aren't much fun either, but I'd MUCH rather see a worm die than a cute little baby mouse or rat
> 
> I highly recommend the mixing the meat and veg option. That's how I've got Sebastian's meat prepared. Granted, he seems willing to eat just about anything, but I think he'd be far less willing to eat the veggies by themselves. At the very least, he wouldn't gobble them all up like he does.
> 
> Imagine you're being offered two things - a nice, juicy steak, or a plain salad with no dressing or meat or anything on it. Which would you choose (and I am assuming you aren't a vegetarian, lol)? Now, if you were to dress that salad with chicken, add some blue cheese, almonds, and apples with a bit of champagne vinaigrette on the side (that is the Blue Apple salad from Bruegger's Bagels, where I am employed - and it is good stuff) you might be more enticed. Your hedgehog certainly doesn't need the blue cheese or the vinaigrette, but you get the picture


I must have read the nutrion information on the pinkies wrong then :0

Love this analodgy I would so choose the steak LMAO

Thanks guys for all the tips on the veggies, I am gonna try them.

Hmm she doesn't like peas and I keep trying to give them to her because I buy a lot of them since my rats love them so much she won't touch them, but I should see if she'll try baby food with peas in there. I think the turkey and veg one she likes is a carrot based one, then the Chicken and veg is a sweet potato based one. I'll have to read the labels more closely to check


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## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

I think you're off to a great start!  When you feel comfortable, and when she is readily accepting of the peas and carrots, try to get more leafy greens. Do they make like a spinach-based baby food? Otherwise, you can buy frozen diced spinach, thaw it, puree that in a blender, and mix that in with the meat. Carrots and peas are a little starchy, and are okay in smaller quantities, but leafy greens like spinach, kale, chard, and romaine lettuce are better sources of nutrition. Green beans might also be a good choice, and I'll bet they make a baby food out of that. I wouldn't feed too much sweet potato unless you want the added fiber in the diet. It can be great for digestion, though. Lots of healthy poops. If you feed too much, though, there will be too many poops, if you get what I mean.

The mixes I make are based on raw ground food from Woody's Pet Deli, which is a local store here in the Twin Cities. I dearly wish everyone had a shop like Woody's in their town, because they are fantastic! Or even if Woody's were to start selling their food nationally. It's the full animal - chicken, turkey, rabbit (although I don't feed rabbit, having pet rabbits myself, I do realize it's a great source of nutrition for carnivorous animals... I'm just not comfortable with it), duck, beef, etc - so you get the bone, the meat, and the organ. That makes it nutritionally complete. 

Without the bone and organs, you are missing important elements carnivorous animals need in their diets. Yes, I know hedgehogs aren't full-on carnivores, but they *do* eat meat, and we want to be sure they are getting all of the elements a meat-eater needs. I do not recommend anyone go without kibble unless they can provide a source of meat that contains all of the elements carnivorous (or in our case, omnivorous) animals need - and that includes the organ meats and a source of calcium. Do your research on BARF diets (I know the acronym sounds gross, but trust me here) if you aren't buying a premade raw diet. 

My layman's recommendation is to ensure at least 10% of the meat is from organs, with at least some of that from the heart Taurine, which can be found in heart meat, is important to a lot of animals, and it might be for hedgehogs - since I'm not sure, it's better to play it safe and assume it is, because it won't hurt. To ensure your hedgies are getting enough calcium and if there is no actual bone in the diet, you can supplement by mixing in a powder made of crushed egg shells to their meat. While you're at it, cook up some eggs for them for some variety in their diet.

I am just going over the basics here - please, do not start crafting a diet based on this little paragraph alone. *Do your research* before going 100% raw and natural  I'm just throwing this stuff out there so you know what you're getting in to. If you want to avoid portioning out organ meats (or trying to find beef or chicken hearts and livers at the grocery store, lol), then the easiest way to do that is to buy a premade raw diet like Stella and Chewy's or Nature's Variety. I believe others here have used these with great results.

I've been mixing Woody's meats with the frozen cooked vegetable blend they sell. It has leafy greens and carrots, and this last batch I made I mixed in probably 1/3 more veggies than meats. Then I freeze it into ice cube trays for easy serving. Also, because I serve it frozen, I don't worry about it going bad overnight. Sebastian eats his bugs first early in the evening, and then as the cubes melt he eats them. It allows him to graze much like he would with the kibble. So far, he has eaten nearly every bit I've ever given him of the stuff. I think I might be overfeeding him right now, to be honest, but he's a growing baby so I'll let him have the extra for the time being :-D


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## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Lily never touched any chopped fresh veggies or cooked veggies - she'd only try the baby food forms. Baby food peas were her favorite veggie by far (one of the only ones she'd lick up on its own - green beans was the other, but she was less enthusiastic about that one), but I tried fresh & cooked peas a few times and got nothing. :roll: They do have some baby foods with spinach in it, I recall buying one.

Great beginning information, lessthansign, thanks for sharing!  It definitely takes a lot of research before jumping headfirst into it, but I'm guessing once you have an idea of what you're doing and get a diet worked out, it's not nearly as difficult & intimidating as it seems at first. That's how it seemed for my friend anyway, who was feeding her ferret a raw diet with great results.


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## lessthansign3 (Jun 1, 2013)

Sebastian is a baby, so it has been easier with him to adjust him to these new foods. I imagine older hedgies don't take so easily to these strange new things. He really seems to like the romaine lettuce we've had recently He wasn't such a big fan of the kale. Perhaps it's a matter of finding what they like? 

Still, whether you are going all natural or still feeding kibbles, I highly recommend anyone with a baby hedgehog get them accustomed to eating vegetables. Veggies are good for them and even if you never go fully raw, it's still nice to have a hedgehog that's willing to take a variety of foods. Start them young if you can, and even if you can't, disguising veggies by mixing them or cooking them with meats is a great way to start.

In regards to ferrets, I recommend all ferret owners go raw if they can. There is some evidence (not much, but some, which combined with the evidence I have observed in my own ferrets going raw, is enough for me to recommend it) that a raw diet could prevent insulinoma, which is very prevalent in ferrets. So good for your friend for going raw! I bet their ferret is happier and healthier because of it  I know my three are. They LOVE their meaties.


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