# Human grade diet



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

Hello again everyone.

My living situation is about the change, potentially allowing me to keep a pet hedgehog somewhere other than my freezing bedroom, so I do have some questions about diet. I did read the other thread about "natural" diets for hedgehogs but it is a couple years old and I didn't want to necro it.

Would this, or this or a mixture of both make an acceptable alternative to dry cat food mixes as the base of a diet? This is a TRUE human grade food company, and I am not comfortable with kibble for a variety or reasons that I outlined an in very long post that timed out and I am too frustrated to type it again. They are both lower in protein than the maxium percent on a DMB and the force is slightly higher than 15 percent fat on a DMB, while the verve is beef based, which I have heard can be problematic for hedgehogs. I could bump up the protein with cooked low fat meat, and I want to include as large a variety of frozen, canned, or re-hydrated insects in the diet, as well as eggs (quail if I can get them) fruit, non-starchy vegetables, baby foods, maybe sprouts, and yogurt. Perhaps some eggshell calcium to balance the phosphorous in the added meat and the insects, maybe a non-soy amino acid complex to make up for what is lost in cooking, some omegas in either fish or flax form, a b-complex if the eggs are fed raw to make up for the avadin in the eggwhites, and some other things I am too tired to remember.

Could this, if done properly, be a healthful diet with no kibble what so ever? I have a raw fed cat and am very much against kibble. However, I do acknowledge that feeding an obligate carnivore is much easier than feeding an omnivore

I am sorry if this post comes across as short, and I promise to elaborate again later, but I just spent over 45 minutes typing something that was lost because I was too stupid to copy it before I hit preview and I should have been in bed 2 hours ago.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

This is a very interesting post (I always love reading about nutrition, and natural/raw/cooked diets for animals and hedgehogs), and I'd love to see more of what you were thinking, when you have time to type it out again. As far as what I'm seeing, I think both of the foods would be okay for a diet base. I'm less sure about how well organizing the whole diet would work out, but would be very interested in updates and reports from you on how it's going if you do go ahead and try it. The main reason there's not a lot of this known or done with hedgehogs is most owners aren't as educated/interested in nutrition and making sure a diet has all of the right vitamins, minerals, and nutrients in the right amounts so as not to have any deficiencies or overdoses. I would definitely be careful with the freeze-dried insects, since too many of those can cause impactions, but live and canned would both be good. All of this stuff is things I'd like to carefully try out in the future with hedgehogs, if I have a chance (and have done a lot more research on balancing diets, etc.). I would definitely cook the eggs, both to be safe against possible salmonella, etc. (even if it's a low chance), and to avoid problems with avidin. Or perhaps just a raw egg every once in awhile, to avoid the issue. (I'd have no clue what you were talking about, but just read about avidin & B vitamins in the nutrition section of my wildlife care handbook I'm reading for a class :lol: )

I don't have much else to contribute other than like I said, I'd be very interested to stay updated on what you do if you try this kind of diet out with a hedgehog. I'm sure LizardGirl will be along soon to comment as well - she's interested in this kind of thing as well, and if I remember right, currently looking into developing a balanced homemade diet for hedgehogs.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

This is what I meant to write, as well as I remember it:

Hi everyone. Some of you may remember me, but probably not. I joined a few years ago and posted a few times but ultimately decided that as much as I would have liked a hedgie, since my room was the only place I could keep him/her, it would not be an ideal situation because I keep my room between 60 and 65 degrees and am unable to sleep with it much warmer than that. Now that I am moving soon, I might actually be able to have a "hedgehog room," and if so, this doesn't have to stop me anymore.

I do, however, have a new dilemma. I have a raw fed cat, and I am completely dedicated to providing her with proper, natural nutrition. Because of the research I had to do her her diet, and the information I was provided by various holistic veterinarians, I truly have a difficult time considering kibble to be FOOD, let alone SAFE. There are a very few natural kibbles that contain quality ingredients, but these still present problems.

The food is cooked at extremely high temperatures for the extrusion process, destroying many of the nutrients, including fatty acids, enzymes, and amino acids, which are not added back in proper amounts if at all. The high temperatures also act on certain carbohydrates (potatoes) to create acrymalide, a carcinogen. All kibble, even the "good" ones are sprayed with fat. Kibble is not refrigerated and fats and oils go rancid quickly. A bowl of dry kibble has a much higher bacteria load than properly handled raw meat because people have been conditioned to think it is sterile, and treat it as such.

All that aside, kibble with better ingredients almost always contains too much fat and protein according to the current consensus. I do not like DRY high-protein diets. While I don not believe protein itself is harmful, I do believe that there is a reason that protein-rich foods in their natural states are almost always moisture-rich as well, so it is not much of leap to think that high protein without high moisture is not really a good thing.

Hedgehog teeth, or what I have seen from very limited internet pictures, don't really indicate true omnivore to me. I don't see any flat molars for grinding plant material. Am I not looking at the right pictures or is it possible that hedgies are opportunistic insectivores the way dogs are opportunistic carnivores, not true omnivores? It would make sense combined with their apparent need for lower fiber diets (I think 2% is recommended?) as vegetation is high fiber. Then again, this is likely just my mind's attempt to make things easier; carnivores are easy to feed but this whole omnivore thing is making my brain bleed.

Is the higher fat content the reason that dry cat foods are recommended over wet foods? I know dry doesn't really clean teeth, and from what I have read is actually pretty detrimental to hedgies oral health because it wears down the teeth. I know with cats dental health is actually acheived by feeding them large chunks they have to shear through and small RMBs. What is the equivalent for the hedgehog?

I am not comfortable feeding actual raw to a hedgie because they graze. When my cat eats her food, its gone in 2-15 minutes depending on what she is eating. Then I pick up her plate, wash it, and put it away until next mealtime. From what I understand about hedgehog metabolism, the food would need to stay in the WARM cage for continuous access, and that doesn't sound very safe. Raw on my off days, when it can be fed as treats and taken away within minutes, however, is a definite possibility (yay for oxymorons).

My overall plan was to feed 50% of the diet as the HK mix(es), with extra lean protein added. 25% would be a variety of insects, preferably shipped live so I can gut load them with baby food and other things and then frozen, canned if I can't get them live, freeze dried as a last resort, but note that when I said RE-hydrated above, I did mean rehydrated. I used to do that with crickets and mealworms for my dwaf hamster: soak them in water before feeding, though they do smell bad when you do that, she loved it. 25% would be various non-starchy veggies, sprouts, baby food, natural yogurt, maybe a VERY small amount of kelp and dulse for trace minerals, a b-complex, however much eggshell calcium is needed for the insects and extra meat I add, a non-soy based amino acid complex, and a source of omegas either in fish or flax form, depending on whether hedgehogs react badly to fish (I have read that they do).

As mentioned above, I may replace some of the HK with raw food on my days off when I can watch the hedgie eat it and pick up the food/wash the bowl within a few minutes. Also some eggs once or twice a week (quail if possible) as I have read that hedgies like to rob nests.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

As far as I remember, it's more recommended to give hedgehogs a higher fiber diet - higher than found in most cat foods, which is why insects are recommended for added fiber. I don't think I've ever read that 2% fiber is recommended. 

I think the main reason dry is fed/preferred over wet is because wet goes bad when it's left out for more than a few hours. That poses a problem since hedgehogs are nocturnal and most owners wouldn't get up in the middle of the night in order to refresh their hedgehogs wet food. Some people do offer wet in addition to dry as treats, or some people with older hogs have to offer dampened kibble or wet food if their hedgehog's teeth are missing or weakened (or the jaw is weaker). But other than that, most people don't like to use it since it wouldn't stay very good the whole night, and hedgies snack throughout the night (most of them). A lot of people lately have started grinding down kibble into smaller pieces to make it easier for their hedgehog to eat it.

The diet in general sounds good to me, but most of us on here are far from an expert on diets - you probably know more than many people on here. All I can say is that I would be very careful and try to make sure all bases are covered and balanced, especially Ca ratio. As far as I know, no one knows the exact nutritional requirements for hedgehogs, which is another thing that puts people off from making a homemade diet. I guess my best suggestion there would be to try and match amounts of everything to a cat food, since hedgehogs do pretty well on it. I would also talk to a vet who specializes in nutrition or an animal nutritionist if you can, to make sure things are being balanced. As you said before, it's harder to do a balanced diet for an omnivore than an obligate carnivore like a cat.

Good luck with everything, and keep us updated if you continue research into this and go down this path with your future hedgehog.


----------



## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

First of all, I'm not an expert, but I'm very interested in hedgehog diets since there isn't that much information about it. I think that's the major problem here; there has never been any real research, and right now I think people feed their hedgehogs kibble because it seems to work. Feeding your hedgehog in a more natural way sounds great, but what _do_ they actually eat, and how would we translate that to a healthy diet for our pets? What would be the exact nutritional values, and what type of food would be the best?
I don't know much about the wild African hedgehogs, the ancestors of our little ones. But the wild hedgehogs we have right here, in my garden for example, are real opportunists. While their diet consists mainly of insects, they do eat basically everything they can find. They eat roots, other parts from plants, fruit (I know hedgehogs in Afghanistan are considered a pest because they eat so many melons, and in spring berries are a big part of their diet), mushrooms, meat (mostly carrion when it comes to bigger animals), eggs, small reptiles/frogs/animals, nuts, you name it.

I think your best bet would be feeding some kibble, or at least food with the right nutritious % and suitable ingredients - as we know them now. Whether that be dog, cat, ferret, or whatever-food doesn't really matter; what matters most are the ingredients & nutritious values, and if they are suitable for hedgehogs.
Some kibble is really hard indeed, but feeding only soft food isn't good for their teeth either. 
But next to it you could feed other things you named - I know people who make mixes, they cook kibble, meat, veggies, fruit, and blend it into a mix. That way you could balance things out a little. But, like I said, I am no expert when it comes to this, and I haven't been a hedgehog owner for long either so I don't know the real impact of certain things when it comes to their diet.

And keep in mind a lot of pet hedgehogs are very picky. It could well be your hedgehog refuses to eat most of it. It sounds nice, but some of them really don't want anything to do with other stuff than their kibble and some insects. Mine for example still refuses to eat veggies or fruit :? although he finally eats living insects now.

You might find this thread interesting as well: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19855


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Draenog's suggestion is what a lot of us have gone with so far, those of us that want to feed a more natural diet - feed kibble still, to make sure nothing is lacking, but do half the diet or so with cooked meat, veggies, fruit, baby food mixes, and lots of insects. For Lily, I did baby food mixes because it was the easiest for my situation in terms of availability and affordability, but I plan to do more home-cooked food mixes or purees, etc. for future hedgies. I want to work on using a lot more insects in the future too - I did only crickets and mealworms with Lily. I'd like to add dubia ****roaches and canned snails, at least, possibly other things.


----------



## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

I made a lovely food mix a while back. He refused to eat it. So now I feed it to my insects :lol: 
Still need to try something else though (he didn't like the kibble I used in it so hopefully he will eat the veggies if I use one of his favourite kibble)

Has anyone every tried the canned snails? I saw them on a website a while back (they were for reptiles), and I wondered if someone tried them?
Dubia roaches seem to be hard to find here, but I really want to try them as well. Loki seems to love the "crunchier" insects like beetles.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Yeah, I'm really eager about dubias. I plan to have some around in the future anyway, as I want a bearded dragon too, and will be raising a dubia colony for the dragon's primary food. I think a member we used to have around more, the name was fracturedcircle, I think, used the canned snails. I don't recall anyone else discussing them, though. I found a site that had canned snails and canned caterpillars, as well as canned grasshoppers. Not sure about grasshoppers (they're really big, seem like they'd be messier?), but I want to try the other two...though they'd probably be just as messy because squishy. :lol:


----------



## VeggieChan (Feb 18, 2013)

As a vegetarian, I'm really interested in looking for food for my hedgehog that I know is from responsible sources. I feel really uncomfortable feeding my hedgie meat that is most likely from slaughterhouses, road kill, or whatever they can get their hands on. I'd like something with less cruelty and as natural as possible.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Higher quality cat and dog foods usually have more responsible and clean sources for the meat included in the food. Their ingredients are more specific (by the AAFCO definitions) about what can be used, which means they aren't allowed to use the 4 D's - dead, dying, diseased, or disabled. So getting a higher quality food will be better as far as what's included in the food and where the animals used for the food are from. If you want to give your hedgehog cooked meat as a supplement to the kibble (as well as other things, like fruits/veggies/etc.), I would suggest finding a local farm/butcher that will let you see their facilities or something. Usually local areas are a bit better about animal care/humane methods of slaughter than big businesses and slaughterhouses.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

> I think your best bet would be feeding some kibble, or at least food with the right nutritious % and suitable ingredients - as we know them now.


I think so too, because of the carnivore/omnivore distinction, which is why I want half the diet to be comprised of Honest Kitchen dehydrated dog foods. They contain all the vitamins/minerals/things I might miss. I like the HK because 1: It isn't kibble (some of the reasons I am against kibble are listed above), it is dehydrated food and 2: It is the ONLY commercial pet product that is actually certified UDSA Human Grade. They actually had to go to court for the right to add this to their packaging, and they won because the ingredients go in human grade, are processed along side products intended for human consumption, and is still human grade after processing (not denatured in any way). They even have people taste test the food as part of quality control.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

> And keep in mind a lot of pet hedgehogs are very picky. It could well be your hedgehog refuses to eat most of it. It sounds nice, but some of them really don't want anything to do with other stuff than their kibble and some insects. Mine for example still refuses to eat veggies or fruit :? although he finally eats living insects now.


I have another question, regarding the above. Cats generally have a reputation for being finicky eaters, too. When my cat was around a year old, she fixated on chicken, and would snub foods with other proteins. Because of the diet I feed her, I could not afford to allow finickiness of any sort, so she learned very early on that if she refused a meal, I picked it back up, put it back in the fridge, and she got it again the next meal time. And the next. While she doesn't eat everything I give her enthusiastically, and definitely has her favorites, she doesn't refuse to eat anything now. Well, there was this one time when I was still feeding the occasional canned food that she refused the same meal for all 3 of her feeding times, and I decided there was something wrong with the food and threw it away.

Please don't think I starve my cat, I most certainly do not (and don't tell her but she is actually about 9oz overweight), but cats are like children in that they don't always like what is good for them and they will hold out for for more tasty foods (like kids refusing to eat their vegetables) - IF you LET them. It IS important to rule out health conditions before employing the tough love method, and cats should not ever go without food for more than 16 hours because of the risks of hepatic lipidosis (which I understand hedgehogs are affected by too), but a HEALTHY cat will not generally starve him/herself, and my cat is unwilling to go more than about 10 hours without food. I wonder if the same thing applies to hedgehogs? I have a hard time believing that ANY animal that is HEALTHY will starve rather than eat something good for them, but I don't know enough about hedgehogs to know for sure, and their smaller size and faster metabolism make me nervous.

My plan, IF I ended up getting a hedgehog, to get a 4 month supply or so of whatever the breeder is feeding. After a settling period (1-4 weeks depending on the hedgie) I would introduce the other components of the diet (I plan on starting with 3 separate bowls, one for kibble, one for the HK mix with the extra meat and insects/eggs, and one for the baby food/veggies/other stuff). Slowly, over the course of 3 months, I would decrease the amount of kibble and increase the fresh foods until the kibble is gone - and never allow into the house again.

I am not inflexible when it comes to taste and preferences of my pets (I am EXTREMELY inflexible about the NO KIBBLE thing). My cat, for example, is picky about liver. She does not LIKE to eat beef liver. She WILL eat it, but I can tell she doesn't like it. So she gets turkey (lesser amounts, ounce for ounce turkey liver is crazy high in vitamin a compared to other liver), duck, and/or chicken liver instead, which she eats readily and then begs for more.

However, all living animals have to have certain amounts of vitamins and since the home made food is more than 15 % of the hedgies diet, even with the commercial food as 50%, the other half HAS to be reasonably balanced, so if they don't like one kind of food, you have to find another they DO like that contains the vitamin you want to add. Take vitamin A, for example, since I already used it in the above: Don't want to eat cooked liver? Maybe sweet potato baby food? (plant sources are not an acceptable form of vitamin a for cats, but omnivores can convert beta carotene into retinol easily) No? Okay lets try butternut squash instead. No? How about we add some chicken baby food to it, will you eat it then? Dried liver powder in the baby food? What about carrots? Okay fine, I will inject it into your thawed insects and you can eat it that way. You HAVE to get your vitamin A somehow! Alright, I will just add a vitamin A supplement to the chicken/whatever baby food you will eat. - Only if I can't find a more tasty alternative will I just mix whatever they need to eat into the normal food so they can't pick it out and leave them to eat it or not for 16 hours or so (IF it is safe for HEALTHY hedgies to go that long without eating, which I don't even THINK they would if given no other alternatives).

OR I could just combine all the other with Alnutrin, a cat food supplement designed to make home made diets complete and balanced according AAFCO standards (it would require additional calculations and adjusting the amount of supplement vs certain ingredients, but it could be done).

I KNOW there has got to be a way to move away from kibble completely, but I don't know what the best way to go about it would be.


----------



## exoticfluffy360 (Jan 22, 2013)

i give my hedges a regular diet of carrots ,spinach,cucumber,wet cat food , dry hedge hog food(now), and cooked unseasoned beef, chicken, or fish. and about 3 large meal worms a day. they absolutely love it and haven't really been loosing or gaining weight. I'm not sure if this is ok so anything i should eliminate please do tell. 

thanks for this thread its really useful.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

I think anything you try is going to be pretty new as far as what people are familiar with on this forum. I really like your ideas though, and it seems like you know what you're doing and what's necessary. Since it's never (or rarely, I guess) been done with hedgehogs, you may have to just kind of experiment and find out what your hedgehog will go along with and eat. I like the idea of just trying different foods that supply the right nutrients and see what your hedgehog likes and will eat, and whether that route will work. Then if your hedgehog is extremely picky or stubborn, you could go with trying out the supplement to make sure they're still getting all the right things in the right amounts.

As far as only offering the snubbed food...I think 16 hours would be fine? Since that's just over one night, which we usually put as a "watch carefully" situation for a hedgehog not eating rather than a "panic and get food in the hedgehog", which is usually with not eating for 2-3 nights. I'd definitely give them at least one or two nights to try a food. I know a lot of people say anyway to offer a food more than once - if they ignore the first time, second time, eighth time, they may finally try it once it's been in front of them many times.

Exoticfluffy - I would try switching spinach out for something with more calcium maybe? Spinach has a lot of calcium, but it has a lot of oxalates that bind to it and keep it unusable. With the added meat and insects to their diet (which usually has more phosphorus than calcium), it might be a good idea to see if they like something like kale or some other greens that have more calcium available. The wet cat food and hedgehog food (what food is it, btw?) should be balanced for Ca, but with the other additions to the diet, it might be a bit more off. Granted, this is mainly a guess from what I've been reading.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

How much of the cooked meats are you offering? Depending on how much they are eating verses the amount of the cat food they get, you may need to add calcium to avoid throwing the Cah ratio out of whack, but this is rather easy to do.


----------



## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

It's nice to see this type of topic re-introduced.  I started inquiring about such things a while back, not sure if you happened across that thread yet, but if not you may want to check it out as there were some good intellectual points made. 
I have hesitated sharing my approach yet, as I respected people's concerns and didnt want to promote anything until a more significant time period had passed first, to show as a decent trial period, but anyways, since you seem to be from a similar mindset as me, and are inquiring, and for those who were previously interested but scared of the assumed possible consequences, I have been feeding my little girl Astrid exclusively Nature's Variety raw since i weaned her off of her breeder's kibble back in September. 
It is an "aafco balanced and complete" cat or dog food. It is also slightly sterilized with a cold water pressure process, so it has less external bacteria than your average raw meat (including ours) 
I usually buy the new "bites" form as they are in little pieces that thaw pretty fast if i have forgotten to plan ahead, but i have also used the medallions before as well. She has only liked the duck or chicken versions so far. 
I also feed some insects (mostly mealworms, sometimes crickets, and the occasional hornworm) and will once in a while add a little bit of greens or fruit, but any veg is usually ignored after anointing, and left in the bowl.) But for the last month or so she hasn't been as mealworms crazy as she used to so I hadn't been given them nearly as many or nearly as often, i took a break for the last week or two, and have re-introduced them this week, and her interest has perked back up a little. Maybe my last batch wasn't "fresh" enough or something. 

So the big question:
How is she doing, after 5 months on this diet? 

She is not overweight. She has a good feel and a good shape as far as the descriptions I've read. 

Her quilling went well and i've only found 2-3 in her bedding in the last couple of months (she's a liner-diver, I don't know if that pulls on them more?) 

She has never had dry skin. I used coconut oil in her bath twice when she was quilling a lot, but haven't since. I don't use oatmeal baths, just a regular natural liquid soap with 4 ingredients: water, potassium oleate (natural coconut cleanser) glycerin (vegetable source) sodium chloride (salt) 

She uses her wheel every night, as far as I can tell. (I sleep upstairs) 
Her poops are always small, firm and don't smell, unless I have introduced something new (veggie or fruit) or changed suddenly between flavours that day (ex duck yesterday to chicken today - if I go gradual over 2 or 3 days its fine) - then you'll see a little bit of poop smearing on the wheel, that will show a greenish tinge when wiped off) 
Except for those "new stuff nights", She usually does most of her bathrooming on the paper towel in front of the wheel, so her wheel is not smeared with poop. There's usually a couple small chunks dried on it that almost always fall off with a little tap on the outside, then a quick wipe with a wet (natures miracle) paper towel, and maybe a little fingernail pressure takes any remaining specs off. Usually only the new stuff nights warrant a real full-on, in the sink wheel scrub. 
As a result of the cleanliness of her poop, I don't need to give frequent foot baths or bedding changes, and her good skin condition and overall cleanliness leaves me not having to give any baths very often. She does not smell either. Usually baths are only made really necessary when trying to add things besides the raw and insects, as she's either anointing with it or getting slightly smeary poop on her wheel. 
She always seems to have a good quantity of pee evident on the paper towels and edge of wheel, that's always nicely dilute in colour, so she appears very well hydrated even though she rarely shows any noticeable level reduction in her water dish. 
I really don't have much else to report besides these observations, as I haven't had any health concerns whatsoever so far to have indicated the need for a vet check. I don't use revolution or anything like that. So no, I don't have any blood test results or any scientific proof that everything's a-ok inside - but I wouldn't be asking for such things if she looked perfectly healthy on a kibble diet either. 
I have not examined inside her mouth, (she likes me, but not enough to allow that voluntarily, lol) but any flashes of teeth I have managed to catch a glimpse of while annointing or whatever, have looked nicely white and healthy. But she's still pretty young, so I wouldn't expect anything really bad yet anyway. Point is, no concerns there so far. Chomps her bugs up fine. 
I can't say to the effect of a heat lamp above the food dish or cage, as I have her in a room that keeps the cage temp in a good range without need for heat lamp. 

I understand that this isn't a tried and true approach yet, but frankly I don't see it necessarily as any more unsure and risky than the homemade cooked mixes and other diet additions. 

I am not an experienced hedgehog owner, but I did do a fair share of reading before I chose her, and am pretty pleased with the condition I'm seeing so far, so I feel confident enough to report that feeding raw isnt necessarily as dangerous and negative as everyone assumes. And could possibly prove to make some healthy improvements. 
I understand that it is still very early in her life to be attempting yo use her as any sort of an example of proof of anything, but if things continue to go so well, I'm hoping perhaps Astrid and I can serve as pioneers to set a new standard of potential hedgehog health. My hope is that perhaps a raw diet can serve to extend life expectancy and eliminate dry skin and cancers and mites and weight problems in hedgehogs the way it does for cats and dogs. 
I will continue to share updates of my observations as time goes on and i'll be sure to report any concerns that come up, but so far I am pleased with her health and don't regret my decision to follow my instincts even though it technically constitutes an experiment. 

Please take this only as sharing my own experiences so far, and use them as you see fit. I don't claim my way as the right way, just saying its working really well for me and shows good promise so the idea of raw feeding warrants further discussion instead of just instant dismissal due to fear of unknown possibilities. 
I'd love to talk more about any ideas or concerns on the topic, but I don't want to derail this thread, so we might want to start another, or pick up my old one or something.


----------



## Draenog (Feb 27, 2012)

Good to read an update, Amlinals. I actually linked your thread in my first post in this one.
I'm glad your hedgehog is doing well. She sounds a bit like mine when it comes to the health department (but mine gets kibble). He doesn't poop much on his wheel either, less to clean :lol: he prefers to poop somewhere else in his cage and I don't give many baths either. 
Of course 5 months is not even real close to a trial period, but you need to start somewhere. The best would of course be 10+ hedgehogs and a whole life period, but since it's somewhat an experiment, I assume not everyone would want to 'risk' their pets in such a way. I do hope she will go on like this and stay healthy and be an example. I'd love to try such a diet as well, if only my hedgehog would eat anything besides kibble (it took him 8 months to figure out living insects are edible, but he absolutely loves them now) and if there would be food like you are feeding and Twisted Angel is considering available in my country.
I think, if you get the right ingredients and the right nutritional values, a diet with less or without the basic kibble most people use won't be much of a problem; the real "problem", in my opinion, is no one exactly knows what the right values are besides what we know now and what seems to be formed by trial and error. It would be great if there could be actual research; what do the wild ancestors of our pets really eat (and in what kind of amounts, how is it balanced, etc.) next to what we know from other people who've kept hedgehogs for years and years. Things are changing all the time, and things are different in various countries as well. Some countries already feed in a more natural way.

About the cat thing; I tried to add a different food to the mix, and he really disliked it. He wouldn't even eat it when there was nothing else to eat (I still don't get why, 'cause there shouldn't be anything wrong with the food but apparently he disliked it). The problem with hedgehogs is, if they go on a hunger strike, it could quite quickly become dangerous since their system starts to shut down and it becomes a vicious circle of not-eating and not-being able to eat, basically. I've heard of hedgehogs who seemed to go randomly on hunger strikes for days without any reasons (besides being a very picky and problematic eater). 
Besides that, hedgehogs wouldn't understand the take-away thing you did with your cat. Tricking them into eating something doesn't always work either... like I tried with feeding veggies by hiding them in/under food he likes, it didn't work. He either ignores it or eats around it. So finding something your hedgehogs likes can be REALLY hard. But others aren't that picky, it depends on the individual. 

(It's starting to get late here so I apologize for any mistakes in my English :roll: )


----------



## moxieberry (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't have an issue with a raw diet, my issue is with a completely _homemade_ diet. There are raw/soft diets out there for cats and dogs that are designed to cover basically the same nutritional requirements as kibble, and I have absolutely no problem with something like that being fed to a hedgehog. I actually have one girl who eats nothing but canned food (Chicken Soup) and mealworms. She won't touch kibble, period, and I have 10+ different brands/varieties on hand that we've tried to tempt her with. So, she gets canned, and other than being a bit scrawny and not filled out enough yet to be bred, she's perfectly healthy, and I have no concerns. I view the commercial raw diets the same way - like canned, they're designed very carefully so that they cover all the little details that a cat or dog requires, without anything extra. They're no different from kibble in that regard.

The problem is with homemade diets. Basically where an owner tries to take on the very difficult task of designing something that's as "complete" as kibble, canned food, or the commercial raw diets. It's a lot more complicated than some people assume. If you're aware of just how complicated it is, and are ready to do quite a lot of reading and research into all the little details that would be required, that's great. Go for it, but you should also be aware of the risks.

There is much more known about the diet of dogs than hedgehogs, and yet it's still a bad idea to venture into a homemade diet without some very careful planning and the advice of a professional animal nutritionist. I know of a case of a dog fed a homemade diet for a year, who spontaneously ended up with a broken jaw because his bones were so brittle by the end of that period of time. It's so easy to miss little details that could have serious negative effects in the long run.

The point being: anyone who's going to try a fully homemade diet had better be ready to do a lot of planning, research, calculations, etc. For those who would rather not feed kibble, commercial raw diets or canned food are a good base to work with - from those you know they're getting everything they need, and then you can add all sorts of extras on top of that.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

> It's nice to see this type of topic re-introduced. I started inquiring about such things a while back, not sure if you happened across that thread yet, but if not you may want to check it out as there were some good intellectual points made.


I did see that thread and found it very interesting. I didn't post on that one, because I don't know if there are any rules against necroing threads here. If there aren't, I would like to post some questions there, or, if you don't mind, I would like to PM you directly.



> The problem is with homemade diets. Basically where an owner tries to take on the very difficult task of designing something that's as "complete" as kibble, canned food, or the commercial raw diets. It's a lot more complicated than some people assume. If you're aware of just how complicated it is, and are ready to do quite a lot of reading and research into all the little details that would be required, that's great. Go for it, but you should also be aware of the risks.


I do agree with this. I know that some people do prey model with no supplements for their cats, and if they are comfortable with it and it works for their pets, great. However, I personally believe that unless one is feeding the ACTUAL diet an animal eats in the wild, supplements are needed to make up for gaps. I like that prey model is better for oral health, and provides mental stimulation, but I feel the supplements ARE needed. So I follow a veterinarian's recipe and just opt to feed chunks and appropriate-sized RMBs instead of grinding it all together. I do think that a PROPER homemade diet can be the best thing for any companion animal, but it can also be the WORST if it isn't balanced. I am willing to bet that the brittle bones and jaw problems the dog had (and I certainly hope he is alright now) were due to an improper Cah ratio in the diet, as that causes the body to leech calcium from the bones. A homemade diet is not for everyone, and I would definately encoure people to do the research and make it balanced, or not feed it at all.

I understand FELINE nutrition - its pretty straight-forward. IF I understood hedgehog nutrition, I would be comfortable omitting commercial products altogether, but I DON'T, and it doesn't seem like anybody does, though cat nutrition seems to work with them, at least partially, which is why I want to include the commercial food as part of the diet.


----------



## Lilysmommy (Jan 7, 2009)

Amlinals, thanks for the update! Glad to know all is going well so far and she seems to be doing good on the diet. 

I do wish we could get more definite information on nutrition for hedgehogs, but I suppose it's not something anyone wants to actually research...especially if they have to use wild hedgies, since their habitat is a bit of a dangerous territory right now, I thinkn.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

I may have to rethink the idea; I just saw the post on herbs and ALL the HK mixes contain basil, parsley, spinach, and/or garlic, which in that post and others are mentioned as best avoided.  

Back to the drawing board...


----------



## jngy slate (Mar 14, 2009)

"All kibble, even the "good" ones are sprayed with fat. Kibble is not refrigerated and fats and oils go rancid quickly. A bowl of dry kibble has a much higher bacteria load than properly handled raw meat because people have been conditioned to think it is sterile, and treat it as such."



this part really grossed me out. this sounds great


----------



## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't mean to sidetrack your thread, but since I think the questions were going to be related, I thought I'd tell you here, I haven't been ignoring you, i'm just not able for some reason to reply to your private message. If you want to start a new thread just for those questions, until I get the private message problem straightened out?


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

That sounds good, or if want, we can just post it here if you would like. Since it IS related, I don't consider it sidetracking.


----------



## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Sorry about that, ok then, ask away.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

Thank you 

1. How much of it does she eat? How does this compare to her intake of kibble?
2. Do you rotate the protein nightly, weekly, etc., mix several together at one time, or just stick with one?
3. Does she have set feeding times or is she free-fed? If its the latter, is there any left in the bowl when you switch it out or are you using portion control to handle leftovers?
4. How many "extras" does she get as far as veggies/babyfood/insects? Are you using anything specifically to boost the carb/fiber content? If so, what? 
5. Do you add any supplements like fish/flax oil or lecithin?


----------



## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Twisted Angel said:


> Thank you
> 
> 1. How much of it does she eat? How does this compare to her intake of kibble?
> 2. Do you rotate the protein nightly, weekly, etc., mix several together at one time, or just stick with one?
> ...


Ok
1 & 3: I feed her once, at night, never at a set time, just before i feel like going to bed, sometimes its early, sometimes its late. Sadly for me company-wise, very rarely does she wake up before i've set her up for the night. must be waiting for all lights to be off, i figure. The food is frozen when I pour it out, so it will take a little while to thaw completely, so I try and do it earlier in case she happens to wake up early. 
Her bowl is a little I don't know what you'd call it - ramekin maybe? And I find she will consistently eat the amount of the "bites" formula it takes to just cover the bottom of the bowl. I always add several extra pieces (the start of a second layer) as a 'just in case she's extra hungry tonight', but very rarely is there not at least a few pieces left in the morning. It's hard to estimate how it compared with the kibble, because she was much younger then, and I was offering many new extras back then every night too, and I was offering way more kibble than necessary back then because I wasn't sure of her schedule, if she would eat in the daytime too (she doesn't, I have tried leaving fresh stuff out for her, other stuff, and I spend the day in the room with her, she just doesn't get up for another meal - if I Take her out and handle her, she will eat treats, bugs from me, but she isn't out on her own looking for a meal in her bowl. 
2. I had tried a few different kinds of ground meat mix of my cats in the beginning, as extras, and she did try a bit of 2 or 3 of them. But now i dont buy from that supplier any more, so i started to use Nature's Variety for her, and I had started with the duck bites. After a little while with that I had numerous flavours in the house at one point and tried them all repeatedly, but she refused them all several times and preferred the Duck flavored raw bites the best. Then about the 3rd or 4th time i tried adding some to her dish, she decided to accept the chicken medallions too so I started using those for a while (she would eat not quite a whole medallion each night) then I tried buying the duck medallions, but she didnt like those, she would only the take the duck flavour in Bites form. Lol!! She completely refused the other 3 flavours (beef, lamb, venison)
So, I don't have too many options for protein variation, she's decided its either duck or chicken. I believe the duck one at least actually has a couple differen protein sources in it though, at least turkey I believe? So she technically is getting more than one at a time. 
I've tried to mix it up every couple of bags, depending on what the stock is like at my store. If i happen to have two at a time i will alternate, but moneys been tight the last little while so ive only been getting one bag at a time. I mix it together half and half for the last one or two feedings when I buy the next flavour, so its not a sudden change from one meal to the next. 
I still try to put a little taste of what my cats are eating in there next to it every so often, in case she's in the mood to experiment, but she usually just ignores it or makes it a fashion statement, never actually eats it. Lol. She doesn't like the cats' new staple mix I ordered recently, so I'm a little out of luck there. I even special ordered her a plain ground chicken mix, but she wouldnt touch it after several tries. 
4: I have not found any indication yet for a need to boost carb intake. So I don't fuss over that. The Natures Variety does already include 5% veggies and fruits. So that's included in her staple diet already. On top of that, IF I happen to have some fresh dark leafy greens in the house, or if I'm cutting up some fruit for myself, I will set aside a piece for her as well. She used to eat it more, but lately, she mostly just tried enough to wear it. Lol. Sometimes it's hard to tell if she's actually eaten some of it or if it just dried and shriveled up in the bowl. But I havent done that every night, maybe once or twice a week. Will probably start doing it more, as I'm trying to up my own veggie and fruit intake, (I was slacking off and on for a while there in my own diet). 
For fiber, I was mostly just thinking the chitin in her mealworms and crickets would take care of the majority of that, aside from what's already in her food. I had for the first while been offering quite a few mealworms every night, and offering some crickets once or twice a week, and the occasional horn worm as a special treat (which she would mostly just wear) when i noticed her starting to leave mealworms in there night after night a little while back, I had really cut back and even stopped the bugs for a couple of weeks but I've recently started to reintroduce them as treats, but originally kept them to when I had her out socializing, rather than including them in her food. I'm just starting to occasionally put them back in her dish this week, and I put some mealies in a treat ball I bought her too, every few nights as a surprise mission. That way she can sort of have variety as to what she finds in her bowl and when. 
5: I was originally putting a little dab of coconut oil in her bowl every so often when she was quilling, but I haven't found it seemed necessary as far as she hasn't had issues with dry skin or anything, also I ran out of my coconut oil and haven't bought a new jar yet.

I guess all in all I've been pretty lazy and slacking lately as far as effort or extras. But on a positive note, basically I think that just serves as good proof that (depending on the particular hedgehog's habits of course) feeding a hedgehog CAN technically be done just as lazily with raw as it can with kibble. (Pour one thing in a bowl, once a night) - no adverse effects so far, crossing my fingers.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

Thank you very much!

I think this may be a viable alternative for me as well, since the HK doesn't seem to be hedgie safe with the herbs in it. Do you think that the commercial raw brands that aren't cat suitable would be hedgie suitable since the higher veggie content is more species-appropriate for a hedgehog than it is for a cat, or would you recommend sticking with the Nature's Variety because of the HPP process?

Alternately, have you ever heard of Alnutrin? Do you think this would also be a viable alternative for a home-made diet since the end product meets AAFCO standards?

And, kind of a gross question, so I will try to word it delicately, have you noticed that this diet has the same effect on hedgies as it does on cats in regards to... output? I thought perhaps that was what you meant, but wasn't sure. Since it sounds like your cat(s) are raw fed, I believe you know that what most people consider "normal"... output for a cat is anything but, and raw feeding fixes this problem. I understood your earlier post to indicate that it does the same for hedgehogs, but I don't want to misunderstand anything. It also SOUNDS like this kind of diet fixes the dry skin problems I have read about in hedgies much like it does for cats and dogs.

How did you go about switching from the breeder's kibble mix to dry? My cat was a cold turkey switch since she was a kitten when we started raw, so while I have read about transitioning methods, they usually go dry -> canned -> raw. Did you have to do this? Did you use seperate bowls for the different foods, or mix them all together?

Thank you for answering my many annoying questions.


----------



## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Twisted Angel said:


> Thank you very much!
> 
> I think this may be a viable alternative for me as well, since the HK doesn't seem to be hedgie safe with the herbs in it. Do you think that the commercial raw brands that aren't cat suitable would be hedgie suitable since the higher veggie content is more species-appropriate for a hedgehog than it is for a cat, or would you recommend sticking with the Nature's Variety because of the HPP process?
> 
> ...


No problem at all, I'm very happy that our experiences might be useful to someone else.  
I personally had been considering Natures Variety as an introductory/transitionary raw diet because of the HPP before I got her. I figured less bacteria the easier the transition until her body got used to raw. But, I ended up trying some other regular ground meat mixes my cats had available as extras/treats before I ended up getting the Natures Variety, so it wasn't even "necessary". I actually ended up going the NV route because of convenience at the time, as I ended up between suppliers of my cats regular ground raw. I was planning on transitioning her to sharing what my cats were eating, with me subbing in lots of bugs and some fresh greens and veggies here and there as treats. I still hope to do that eventually, the natures variety just ended up ring so convenient and she's not fond of the cats present mix so I haven't pushed it.

I haven't heard of that other brand, I'll have to look it up.

As far as other brands go, I really don't see why not, if you want to try them. If they're intended for dogs then maybe the biggest worry might be taurine content? So maybe sub in some extra heart as treats? 
I'll have to look up the posts about herbs again. I honestly didnt remember that many hard and fast no's on too many things, I thought most of the warnings were more precautionary because people weren't sure, so were more along a quantity issue - as in a dont give it often, just in case kind of deal. There may actually be stuff in the NV that is frowned upon. The amount that would be included as part of many things that make up the 5% veg content is probably not too big of a concern. Are we sure these herbs aren't included to some degree in the kibble we feed as well?? 
As I personally see it, a properly balanced home made raw diet intended for a cat should serve the same purpose as a properly balanced dry kibble intended for a cat. So if you're already making a nicely balanced raw diet yourself for your cats I frankly see no reason why you shouldn't use that as your base. You can tweak it exactly how you like and include or leave out whatever you need to as you view the hedgie's progress. That is what I intended /still intend to do. It is nice to have a very convenient commercial option, however its up to you to choose which brand. I would personally lean more toward cat versions for a few reasons, but if you find something that is balanced for both (like NV) or a dog version that you really like the ingredients on, then by all means. I guess the big question on that topic is are you wanting to add in your own extra veggies on top of this staple diet, or are you wanting it as an all in one veg already included? If you're adding in your own, then go raw cat, all meat. If you don't want to deal with adding veggies, then go for a mix that includes more veg in it already.

As far as the "output" - yes. I did try to go into that in an earlier post - yes. I found her output on raw is a little smaller and firmer and much less smelly on raw than it was on kibble. And I was using grain free kibble.  It only goes slightly smeary on the wheel when I've introduced something different that day.
Maybe I'll try and catch a picture of the "aftermath" one night. 
I can't entirely say about the dry skin, I just haven't had an issue with it, and as I said I don't supplement and I don't bathe frequently with soothing moisturizing products either. 
I did noticed a little bit of the beginning of a dry skin appearance when she was quilling, but really not since, so since the diet change coincided around that time its hard to say definitively if it was the diet or she's just not prone to it. 
But im personally inclined to say it IS diet related, I just don't want to sound biased because of my own beliefs in animal nutrition, so I'll just say the reasons are inconclusive. 

Transitioning: as far as transitioning goes, the breeder had her on a mix of two different good kibbles, I really liked the one but wanted to switch out the other, so first I did that gradual transition using the supply she had given me. So now I was on a mix of one of her original kibbles and a new one of my own choosing. 
In the meantime I was introducing new extras - she had never had insects before at the breeders so I started there with mealworms, then crickets. Some greens, some fruit. I would just put these in the side of her food dish next to her kibble, If I wasn't offering by hand when she was out. So that kind of became the "place for new things to try" although she would often snub them. 
Then I started putting a little blob of the cats ground raw, or little cut up pieces of meats in that spot. As time went on, If it was getting snubbed, I would kind of stir up some kibbles into it, and press some into the top of the blob, so that if she took a kibble there would be no choice but to have some meat stuck to it that she would have to accidentally try some, hopefully deciding it was in fact delicious.  I kept up with that approach, adding less and less kibble each night for a few nights until it was basically a garnish, until I completley phased out the kibble. I actually did forget to thaw some out a few times and tried to just offer kibble a night here and there in the early weeks, and her poop was immediately all gross again, so her system had adjusted completely to raw a lot faster than I had expected it to. 
So I mean, I believe that cold turkey could surely be done if they will dig right in to the new stuff. My girl was being a little more tentative with trying new things so I was forced to go more gradual to kind of ease her into trying it. Once she was obviously eating some of it i rather quickly phased out the kibble. If she had however inhaled the meat offerings right away all gung ho, I would have had no problems with going cold turkey.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

http://knowwhatyoufeed.com/

This is the Alnutrin supplement. It basically takes all the vitamins in Dr. Piersons recipe (except the fish oil, they want you to add that fresh per meal), plus a few others so that it can be added to cooked meat or raw and still meet AAFCO standards. Its what I used for my cat before I swapped to my current method. I really liked the fact that I got to buy my own quality meat from fresh sources and know that it is human-grade and handled properly, but I started having problems finding a decent variety and unenhanced meats, so I had to switch.

I am a little hesitant to give a hedgie what I give my cat because I have basically combined a ground raw recipe with prey model. I purchase chunked meat/bone/organ from hare-today instead of ground, and just mix the chunks with Dr. Pierson's recipe instead of grinding it, creating a sort of nutrient gravy. It gives me the peace of mind I need since this is a vet created recipe, and the mental and dental benefits of prey model since she actually has to chew her food. I just don't know enough about hedgehog physiology to know if it is a good idea for them to try and gnaw apart a 4 inch piece of bone-in rabbit/duck/cornish game hen. I could, however, just order some grinds instead of all bone-in pieces if the hedgie could take to the recipe.

As for the extras, I could go either way. If I go with a commercial product and they are already included, awesome. If not, I can throw some veggies into an ice cube tray with the insects and maybe some baby food I plan on freezing in nightly portions anyway.


----------



## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

I see. Well as far as the hedgies chewing chunks frankly I'm sure it would probably do their teeth a lot of good the same as it does for cat and dog teeth. I just wonder if they'd have the jaw power and span to actually tackle a significant enough amount of ingested bone to balance their calcium needs, so just in case I'd personally be inclined to to do a combination, like i do for my older cats: partial ground (with bone included) and partial bigger chewy chunks for teeth cleaning and jaw exercise.


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

So, maybe half nature's variety bites, and half larger meat chunks with alnutrin (the kind with eggshell calcium included), with a veggie/insect cube nightly would fit the bill, do you think?


----------



## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Twisted Angel said:


> So, maybe half nature's variety bites, and half larger meat chunks with alnutrin (the kind with eggshell calcium included), with a veggie/insect cube nightly would fit the bill, do you think?


That just seems like a lot of food!! haha. I assume you mean rotate/alternate? And if it's eating the veggies, i would imagine that that would be easier to mix a supplement in with than chunks of meat. Or, you could dust your insects with it, like we lizard folks do?


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

I could dust it, I suppose. I was going to alternate the chunks and natures variety, and give the veggie/insect cube nightly. I just didn't want to put it in the cubes and double up the vitamins that way, but I could have some cubes with the alnutrin and some without for when I feed natures variety.


----------



## Amlinals (Jul 26, 2012)

Ohhh, you mean your insects are in a veggie cube?


----------



## Twisted Angel (Dec 21, 2009)

Yes. I was going to finely chop the veggies and put insects in ice-cube trays, put the veggies over them, and freeze, maybe with a bit of babyfood mixed in to make the vegetables more palatable.


----------

