# New pet: Brazillian short tailed opossum, Hedgie or Axoltl?



## moey

Hey guys.

So I'm fairly new to the site and I have found it to be an amazing help in raising my hedgie correctly, safely, and mostly, happily, especially being in a part of the world where most hedgehog information is completely wrong!

Anyway, I am finally able to get a second pet...

My options are a second hedgehog, a Short Tailed Opossum or a tank of Axolotl.

I also wanted a sugar glider but they take way too much work. And I have found Degus available in my country.... Lastly, but worth mentioning, I am thinking of a Chemeleon too...

I wonder if anyone here has any experience with these animals that might help me decide on what to choose...

If not, maybe you guys could point me into the direction of animals you have had good experiences with, that I could look into getting...


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## Draenog

Since you already have a hedgehog: would you want another one? 

Do you have experience with any of those other animals? What are you looking for in an animal? If you want something you can actually hold, the axolotl might not be the right pet for you. Same goes for the chameleon, although you can 'hold' it, but it's still different from eg. a hedgehog.
So, what do you want: a pet to look at, or a pet you can cuddle with? Or something in between?

And are you able to care for it? Some of those animals have special needs, like a special diet and you'd need to make sure you can give them the right food and other things they need. Some of them might need a lot of space, do you have enough room for them?

I have a short tailed opossum and I absolutely love her. She's great. I think they make great pets. They're nocturnal like hedgehogs so they sleep during the day, but unlike my hedgehog she comes out earlier (when I'm still awake and the lights are still on) and during the day as well sometimes to drink or eat a little. 
She is really curious and when she sees me (I have her terrarium on my desk) runs up to the glass and puts her paws against it. She climbs onto my hand immediately when I put it in her cage. It's still not really a 'cuddly' pet like a cat or a dog but for someone who likes hedgehogs it might be a good one. They need a varied diet though since they're omnivorous but she eats a lot of the same stuff my hedgehog gets, and a lot of things I eat (like fruits and vegetables).


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## raurora

Axolotl are really cool but not really playful pets. I had one that was genetically engineered to glow in black light. Looked super cool!! I know you mentioned what you want, but a recent visit to the shelter by me showed me how much traditional animals are uncared for. Ever think about adopting from a shelter?


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## moey

I really want an Opossum. Even though everyone seems to think they are not nice, I just fell in love with these playful little creatures!

I think Axolotl's are my last option as an aquarium is way too much work for me...

I have thought about going to a shelter, but I'm only allowed pets that can stay in a cage/tank/vivarium/terrarium in my room... Most traditional pets live outside or free roam ones house and sadly my family won't allow that... =( While I can get hamsters, rats and gerbils, I'm not really a huge fan.... But Opossums have stolen my heart I think, especially after what Draenog says! The only problem is they are super rare in SA, and the only breeder I've found doesn't have babies right now... So I have to wait for one....


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## Draenog

STO's are rare here as well, I couldn't find them at first (found some people on the internet who had them but they didn't have babies/weren't planning on breeding) but I got really lucky at a fair and found a breeder who had some for sale.
I have no experience with other opossums since they're so rare here but mine was so sweet from day one, she was really curious and tame already. Climbed onto my hand without hesitating, she was a bit skittish and scared of loud noises in the beginning but that's getting less now. I bought her in December so I haven't had her for long but she's just the sweetest thing! I'd love to let her sleep in my pocket or in a sleeping bag, so far it happened once but usually she's way to busy running around and exploring.

This is my girl


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## raurora

She's so small!!!!!!!


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## Draenog

Got her when she was 8 weeks old  she's a bit bigger now. Second vid is her third day with me. She's a bit older in the first one. But they're not that big, more like a small rat.


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## moey

Wow! She is adorable!!!! I REALLY WANT ONE NOW!!! She is just the cutest!


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## Tongue_Flicker

Axolotls and sugar gliders are actually easier to maintain than hedgehogs where i'm at. I'm actually amazed at how low maintenance my gliders are than i once thought. That's the reason why it took me 2 years, before i had one (now 5 females lol). Probably coz of the low cost of living plus the cheap prices or fruits and veggies that they love.

Axolotls thrive in cold water and doesn't really need a huge tank, just a long shallow one. A good filtration system and aeration and you're good to go. As for chameleons, they maybe way more expensive in terms of additional heating.

And believe me, having more than one hedgie is not easy haha


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## moey

I hear gliders need a lot of attention?How many hours do you dedicate to them daily? I also can't keep two because that is too many for me! I hear they bark at night and make a big mess in terms of urine and poo and eating... Also heard you can't train them to not continuously urinate on you?


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## Lilysmommy

I'd stay away from the sugar gliders if you can't have more than one - from what I've read, they tend to do best with a companion. Also keep in mind that food costs may vary by region - fruit & veggie costs can be more expensive in other places where they're less accessible, especially fruits. 

I don't know anything about STOs, but sounds like they might be worth more research if you want something you can hold. For temperament, you could see if the breeder will let you visit the babies & see them all to choose one that seems to be sweeter?


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## Draenog

I have no experience with sugar gliders and I don't know much about them but I thought you'd have to keep them together like Lilysmommy says, not sure about that though. I always thought they were fairly high maintenance compared to other animals but maybe that's not true, not many people have them around here.


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## Tongue_Flicker

I work at home so i have full attention and bonding time with them. My whole house is technically a huge cage for all my animals. I also have my own fruit, veggie and flower garden and 2 bee boxes for honey cutting costs by half. Yeah, i'd stay away from suggies if you don't have ready access to some exotic fruits that they love.

Yeah they bark but that is nothing compared to the sounds when my frogs, crickets, tokay geckos, palm civet and scops owl decide to do a concert. I can rarely smell their pee since they are all females and i don't feed papaya and mealies that tend to make their urines smell more.

I want a skunk haha!


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## moey

Wow, thats a lot of animals!!! SO cool!

Draenog, what food do they eat???


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## Draenog

They are omnivorous so they eat a lot of things, they need enough protein so food needs to be high in protein and low in fat. They can get bald spots when they don't get enough protein. You can give them dry cat food but mine doesn't like it so I give her wet cat food and raw meat (we have frozen raw meat it's made for cats and contains muscle meat and a bit of bones and organs, right now I have rabbit but there's also a chicken, beef and duck version), fruit and vegetables, insects like crickets, meal worms, super worms, roaches, grasshoppers, adult mice (I breed mice), frozen pinkies (I only feed living adult mice and I just buy the pinkies 'cause I breed harvest mice and they are tiny - fancy mice pinkies are a lot bigger). They need enough water as well since they can get dehydrated fairly quickly.

The humidity needs to be at about 40%-50% because their ears can dry out and fall off when the air is too dry. Don't place them in direct sunlight since they can get skin cancer from UV light (so don't use an UV lamp either). Temp should be somewhere between 70-85F.


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## moey

Thanks so much! I am finally getting my own! 

How do you keep her humidity levels up?

Can you maybe psot a pic of your setup so I can use it as a guide?


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## Draenog

The humidity in my room is good, but I'm planning on getting her a bigger terrarium and I want to use plants in it - they would also help with keeping the humidity high enough.  Here's a picture of her terra (with her old wheel and without her other fleece hideys, but I didn't put everything back yet when I took the picture).


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## moey

Thanks so much!

Any tips to a first time owner?

I'm getting my babies in a week or so...

I want to get 20 gallon hamster cages... Do you think that would be good for them?

I will get a cage each obviously, coz they are solitary animals.


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## Draenog

Did you manage to find a breeder? That's fast! Why do you want two?

What are the dimensions of the cage? I personally prefer a terrarium (mine has a wire mesh top) but I guess a hamster cage could work as well. Although they love climbing, so a tall enclosure is better than one with lots of floor space.
They need a wheel as well just like a hedgehog.

How are you gonna heat the cage? I use a CHE (ceramic heat emitter)


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## moey

Yep, I've been contacting every animal breeder I knew in search of them for the past wto weeks!

Being from South Africa, I've been offered so many other animals insted - Degus, Coati Bears, Mongoose, Chameleons, Bushbabies, Sugar gliders, Alligators, Snakes, Fennec Foxes, Monkeys and the one that came up most, Lion cubs! ...But finally, I found a breeder... The only one in the country it seems...

Well, I could basically get two for the price of one... Although that would double up my pricing for housing... And as they are so rare here, maybe breeding them down the line could be a good idea..

I plan on getting those big multi-level hamster cages so there'll be more climb space... I can get between 10-20 gallons worth out of a hamster cage.... 

Can the hedgehog bucket wheels work or would a normal hamster wheel work too? If I get a 10 gallon, a hamster wheel would be easier to fit...

I think a heating pad? Although I am not sure...


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## Draenog

I looked up the dimensions but 10 gallon is way too small. A 20 gallon would be the absolute minimum size (and it's still small), bigger is better. They need a big wheel too since they need to run with their back straight and they have a tail as well so you'll need a 12/10 inch wheel.

Please think the breeding plans through really well before you get them since they can be really aggressive towards each other. If you just want a pet I think it would be better to get just one. In order to let them breed you'd need a way bigger cage where you can put them together for breeding.


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## moey

Yeah, I think that's what I'm going to do! Good thing is I already have en extra hedgehog bucket wheel! So just a cage and a few more supplies and I'm ready to go! Thanks so much! XD


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## Draenog

I have one as well since I don't really have any breeding plans (at least not in the near future) and I thought I could give one more attention than two... it takes up more time as well, not only space  But sounds great! And please do post pictures when you have him/her


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## moey

Thanks so much for the help! I definitely will!


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## ceopet

Looks like you decided! STO's are cute! A friend of mine was trying to rehome a couple of them but I can't take one because I have just enough pets for me now lol I think I'd be overwhemed if I got another one at this point in my life. 


I was gonna suggest rats because they are fairly low maitence and awesome pets. I have three. they are super smart and super affectionate if you spent time with them your mind would change. 

Dreanog why do feed the mice live?


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## moey

Aww, rats are adorable! STO's look like miniature one's!

Draenog, I have found some cages... Telll me which you'd recommend? the Crittertrail Three (Over 20 gallons)? The DEluxe Habitat (About 20 gallons but its not talll... More wide) Or the one thats labelled HAC575? Or do any of the other tanks stick out for you?

Also, how do you make sure of no overheating without a thermostat?


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## moey

I am worried STO might get stuck in CritterTRail Three's tunnels and that CHE might melt the plastic?


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## brittbritt

I also have 3 pet rats and they are super sweet. I open their door and they practically fall out of the door to come and greet me. Nothing better than sweet ratty kisses.


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## Draenog

I love rats, I've had them myself. They are really cute and bond strongly with their owner. Reasons I didn't get them again at this point in my life were 1. they smell really strong 2. they usually die of cancer or other problems and don't get old and 3. you always have to keep two or more.
I'd love to have rats again though at some point, but only if I can place their cage in a different room than my bedroom. They're just so cute! 

About the cages: I think the Crittertrail three is still too small (at least in my opinion) although I know some people use it. I think good dimensions for a cage are 60 w x 40 d x 80 h (in cm) or bigger (but keeping the hight). My current cage has less floorspace but I'm planning on getting a bigger one because I think this one is too small and I want more floorspace for the wheel. I think there wouldn't be much room for a wheel in a Crittertrail? About the tunnels, maybe you can remove them?
The HAC575 is bigger (but still smaller than the minimum size that's recommended here) so I think that's the best option out of those cages, still hard to fit a wheel in but it has enough climbing space.
I know some people use the Ferret nation for STO's but those are really expensive (at least here they are since they have to import them from the US).

Can't you get a terrarium? Lots of different sizes and you can easily make a more natural enclosure with wood and plants. 

You'll always need a thermostat to make sure the cage stays in the right temperature range. 

@ceopet I feed live mice because I breed them so I already have them. Of course I could kill them myself and feed them to her when they're dead but that wouldn't be any quicker. She's extremely fast. When I put a mouse in her cage she stalks it and the mouse is unaware of her all the time until she jumps onto it and bites its throat and then it's over. It happens really fast. If she was playing with it or when it took too long to kill I would do it myself, but she kills in one bite. I don't think any of my methods would be much quicker. I don't breed fancy mice but Eurasian harvest mice which are dwarf mice so they're really tiny, it might be more of a struggle with a bigger mouse. As long as it goes fast and quick I don't have problems with feeding live mice.


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## moey

These are the biggest hamster cages we've got... Then we get the Chinchilla cages but the gaps are too big!

I'll go searching for terrariums tomorrow!

I have yet ti find termostats in SA...

I'm gonna meet the breeder sometime today, so hopefully I'll find out what he does...

Please keep an eye on this thread... I might need your help again...

Thanks so much! 

You guys on HHC are always the best!


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## Draenog

Well if you don't have anything bigger I would go for the HAC575! They're escape artists so they would definitely escape from a chinchilla cage.  Unless you could modify it somehow (with wire mesh?). 

And sure I will  There might be some way to send a thermostat to SA from somewhere else? Although the shipping costs might be too high... but maybe there is a less expensive way... Ebay perhaps?


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## Tongue_Flicker

moey said:


> Being from South Africa, I've been offered so many other animals insted - Degus, Coati Bears, Mongoose, Chameleons, Bushbabies, Sugar gliders, Alligators, Snakes, Fennec Foxes, Monkeys and the one that came up most, Lion cubs! ...But finally, I found a breeder... The only one in the country it seems...


I wanna move to SA lol


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## moey

I managed to get someone to custom build me a tank... im getting it at 60cm x 60cm x 90cm height... Im gonna use your tank as inspiration!


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## moey

Haha tongue flicker you'd love it here!


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## LarryT

I made a cage from mesh and PVC for my STO, was fairly cheap for a 3x2x2 foot cage. 
https://www.facebook.com/carolinast...0200894744903331.1073741838.1006244130&type=3


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## Draenog

Larry your cage is awesome 

Moey that's great!


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## moey

Can someone post larrys pic here? Im unable to view the Facebook link..


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## fishhead

Wait, people keep Fennec Foxes as pets? Whoah. There are breeders in Texas. I wonder if they are good pets...


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## moey

from the research I've done, they do best in pairs and make good pets. However, they are nocturnal and very social. So you need to be willing to give them their social time with you at night. They are said to be more like playful canines..But if you want an exotic animal that is similar to a dog, I'd recommend a coati... As they aren't noctournal and bettee fit for socialising in the day... Fennec's are adorable though and very playful... but take on your own research,.and if it's for you, you can consider getting one. I, personally feel the best wild cat (even tho feenecs are foxes, not cats) to have is a Cheetah. If you have the yard space they enjoy, they are the most loyal, well-domesticated and easily-tamed. It is not uncommon for Cheetahs to be companion pets over here. And even though a lot are raised on game parks, they act like kitty cats around their caretakers a lot.... They are wild and their play may be a bit rough for you, but I find them the best to adapt, and it serms thrive, as pets.


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## Heavenly Hedgehogs

I used to raise short tailed opossums years ago, they are amazing pets. Very hard to come by in Canada now


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## fishhead

moey said:


> from the research I've done, they do best in pairs and make good pets. However, they are nocturnal and very social. So you need to be willing to give them their social time with you at night. They are said to be more like playful canines..But if you want an exotic animal that is similar to a dog, I'd recommend a coati... As they aren't noctournal and bettee fit for socialising in the day... Fennec's are adorable though and very playful... but take on your own research,.and if it's for you, you can consider getting one. I, personally feel the best wild cat (even tho feenecs are foxes, not cats) to have is a Cheetah. If you have the yard space they enjoy, they are the most loyal, well-domesticated and easily-tamed. It is not uncommon for Cheetahs to be companion pets over here. And even though a lot are raised on game parks, they act like kitty cats around their caretakers a lot.... They are wild and their play may be a bit rough for you, but I find them the best to adapt, and it serms thrive, as pets.


Thanks for the info., very interesting. We are actually good with just our hedgie, our dog, and the aquarium (lots of red cherry shrimp babies). Fennec Foxes are really cute, but we want to give Princess P. P. lots of attention.


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## moey

Any idea what live plants are safe for STO's?

Draenog, generally what do you feed them daily and how much? The internet is very unclear and some seem to say that cat food, fruits, veg and live food (crickets, mealworms, etc) should be fed daily... That seems a bit much for such a small animal? Or does it mean alternate these foods like cat food today, fruit tomorrow and so on?


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## Tongue_Flicker

moey said:


> I, personally feel the best wild cat (even tho feenecs are foxes, not cats) to have is a Cheetah. If you have the yard space they enjoy, they are the most loyal, well-domesticated and easily-tamed. It is not uncommon for Cheetahs to be companion pets over here. And even though a lot are raised on game parks, they act like kitty cats around their caretakers a lot.... They are wild and their play may be a bit rough for you, but I find them the best to adapt, and it serms thrive, as pets.


We have cheetahs sold at public markets in Bahrain. Brought in by indians, i guess. Tamed adults and cubs price the same around $600 worth in my currency. Almost had one when i was a kid, thank goodness that my sisters were against it (Since we can't take it to the Philippines coz i have way too many pets back then.)
Take note that our sugar gliders here cost anywhere between $45-$65 and a hedgehog would normally cost around $9-$15 ha! How's that for price range lol..


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## ceopet

Chetah's as a pet? That seems terifing. And people sell lion cubs? I am all for exotic pets but that seems to take it way too far. At least in my opinion. There was a man in Ohio here in the US, years ago that kept a bunch of large cats. It got to the point where it was like a small zoo, He even hired people to help care for them, Well after a couple of the people were badly injured and one killed, the federal government began getting on his case. The man ended up opening all the cages opening the big gate on his property then killed himself. The big cats consumed his body and then reeked havoc on the town he lived in. A couple of people died while many others were severly injured.

I think you feed them the same you do hedgehogs. Cat food as the staple and the other stuff as treats. I think they should get bugs daily though, if I am not mistaken.


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## Draenog

moey said:


> Any idea what live plants are safe for STO's?
> 
> Draenog, generally what do you feed them daily and how much? The internet is very unclear and some seem to say that cat food, fruits, veg and live food (crickets, mealworms, etc) should be fed daily... That seems a bit much for such a small animal? Or does it mean alternate these foods like cat food today, fruit tomorrow and so on?


Yes it's kinda unclear... I have to say she eats quite a lot for such a small animal! 
Since she doesn't like dry catfood I feed her raw meat or wet cat food daily, and I always add something (or more). Insects, veggies, fruit or egg (either cooked or scrambled but they can eat raw egg as well). I prefer small amounts of different things over a lot of the same.
When I give her a mouse or a pinkie I usually don't feed her meat or catfood that night but more veggies and fruit.


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## moey

Yeah, they're fairly cheap too, considering... It's about $800 for a cub when converted to dollars... I expected it to be a lot more! That's cheaper than some dog breeds..

I've heard about the Ohio situation and I heard the big cats and bears did not hurt a single person... However, all the animals were killed. I don't know if it's the same situation, because the one I heard of was very recent, but it sounds similar.

Essentially, when Americans generally think "pet lion", they either think of a caged backyard animal... And from what I've researched is how they are kept over there... This, to my understanding, is how the animals in the Ohio situation were kept... I find it obvious that these animals would not trust, and hurt humans instead.

BUT I do believe it is possible to keep big cats as pets in the right situation...

ceopet, you must understand that many South Africans live on large game farms...
Lions aren't exactly kept as pets. They are kept on game farms usually. There is the odd case of Lions being hand-fed since birth and growing into tame loving pets.. Almost all captive lions are bottle-fed as babies and it's not impossible to tame them... but it is extremely hard... BUT confining them to a small space and feeding them just does not work... Lions need nurture. There is an animal behaviorist who has worked with lions all his life, and he play-wrestles and swims with them as if he were one of their own... He says that he is often hurt while "playing" as the animals don't know they are much stronger than him, but he does not act on his pain and punish them to train them as you would do to a dog, but treats them lovingly... And I think that is how they have accepted him. He regularly falls asleep together while cuddling with one of the biggest males...

I know this seems bizzare to people who aren't from Africa, but I have witnessed many a special bond between a human and wild animal... I find it extremely fascinating, because unlike domesticated cats and dogs, these animal have not been bred to depend on us. They are wild and free to kill us if they pleased, but with affection and love, we are able to win a place in their world. Mny people seem to say "It's only a matter of time before the animals eat that person" to anyone who grows a bond with a wild animal... I think this is ignorance. I am not saying you can just go upto a wild animal and be loving, and it will feel the same, but I am saying under the correct circumstances, they can be grown to see us as family and not fear us... After all, Lions are very socially-structured animals. 

While lions aren't the ideal candidates, they are able to make great pets BUT only in experienced and loving care! Cheetahs however have been the best of the big cats to have been tamed... Cheetahs are usually kept in cheetah conversations and have daily interaction with humans. Many a time, they end up acting like kittens. They tame very easily when they have continuous interaction with humans and I know that sometimes they move into peoples homes and are treated like cats! Ofcourse being wild, they are a little harder to take care of!

Now, you might think this is completely crazy! How is this possible? Well, it is quite common here! And how many times have you heard of animals turning on their owners in South Africa? There aren't that many, if there are any at all... Especially regarding Lions and Cheetahs... And even if you come across a few, there are probably a thousand more where nothing has happened for every one attack you hear of.... Besides, the few cases I've heard were from negligence at zoos, and not in homes...

While I am by no means saying anyone should try to make a pet of a wild cat, it is possible... 

Anyway, that's just my fifty cents worth lol. I think i's easier for me to wrap my head around being from a country where animals and humans have sometimes found a way to co-exist in harmony.... Thanks for the info on the STO feeding!


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## moey

I think I'll feed dry cat food daily along with fruit or veg one day and about five insects the next? Maybe weekends will be treat time and she'll get eggs! I will just have to be a matter of preference to see what works for my little STO!


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## Draenog

Sounds like a good plan  I usually feed something like 5-10 insects depending on the kind, if they're small I give her more... With big grasshoppers I just give her one or two. 

About keeping big cats as pets: I think it's also different when they are actual wild animals in your country, not caught and shipped off to somewhere else where they're probably locked up in small(er) cages. Or bred in a different environment than the one they're used to. Kinda like if a South-African would start keeping brown bears from Russia. You hear stories of people who keep foxes, wolves and bears as pets in countries where those animals live in the wild - I think it makes it easier.


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## Tongue_Flicker

ceopet said:


> Chetah's as a pet? That seems terifing. And people sell lion cubs? I am all for exotic pets but that seems to take it way too far. At least in my opinion. There was a man in Ohio here in the US, years ago that kept a bunch of large cats. It got to the point where it was like a small zoo, He even hired people to help care for them, Well after a couple of the people were badly injured and one killed, the federal government began getting on his case. The man ended up opening all the cages opening the big gate on his property then killed himself. The big cats consumed his body and then reeked havoc on the town he lived in. A couple of people died while many others were severly injured.
> 
> I think you feed them the same you do hedgehogs. Cat food as the staple and the other stuff as treats. I think they should get bugs daily though, if I am not mistaken.


Talk about hardcore right? Lol..

@moey: we should so be neighbours in a common country haha!


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## moey

Haha yes, I think we'd start a backyard zoo lol


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## moey

Draenog, do you know which plants are for Opossums? Is Bonsai safe?


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## Draenog

There are lots of different types of bonsai and some of them are toxic. I'm still looking for a good plant that's 100% safe since lots of them seem to be poisonous I don't know if she would leave them alone...


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## moey

Let me know if you know any that are safe please?


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## Tongue_Flicker

Try posting some of your plant/bonsai type options. I can be pretty adept when it comes to toxic plants


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## ceopet

moey said:


> Yeah, they're fairly cheap too, considering... It's about $800 for a cub when converted to dollars... I expected it to be a lot more! That's cheaper than some dog breeds..
> 
> I've heard about the Ohio situation and I heard the big cats and bears did not hurt a single person... However, all the animals were killed. I don't know if it's the same situation, because the one I heard of was very recent, but it sounds similar.
> 
> Essentially, when Americans generally think "pet lion", they either think of a caged backyard animal... And from what I've researched is how they are kept over there... This, to my understanding, is how the animals in the Ohio situation were kept... I find it obvious that these animals would not trust, and hurt humans instead.
> 
> BUT I do believe it is possible to keep big cats as pets in the right situation...
> 
> ceopet, you must understand that many South Africans live on large game farms...
> Lions aren't exactly kept as pets. They are kept on game farms usually. There is the odd case of Lions being hand-fed since birth and growing into tame loving pets.. Almost all captive lions are bottle-fed as babies and it's not impossible to tame them... but it is extremely hard... BUT confining them to a small space and feeding them just does not work... Lions need nurture. There is an animal behaviorist who has worked with lions all his life, and he play-wrestles and swims with them as if he were one of their own... He says that he is often hurt while "playing" as the animals don't know they are much stronger than him, but he does not act on his pain and punish them to train them as you would do to a dog, but treats them lovingly... And I think that is how they have accepted him. He regularly falls asleep together while cuddling with one of the biggest males...
> 
> I know this seems bizzare to people who aren't from Africa, but I have witnessed many a special bond between a human and wild animal... I find it extremely fascinating, because unlike domesticated cats and dogs, these animal have not been bred to depend on us. They are wild and free to kill us if they pleased, but with affection and love, we are able to win a place in their world. Mny people seem to say "It's only a matter of time before the animals eat that person" to anyone who grows a bond with a wild animal... I think this is ignorance. I am not saying you can just go upto a wild animal and be loving, and it will feel the same, but I am saying under the correct circumstances, they can be grown to see us as family and not fear us... After all, Lions are very socially-structured animals.
> 
> While lions aren't the ideal candidates, they are able to make great pets BUT only in experienced and loving care! Cheetahs however have been the best of the big cats to have been tamed... Cheetahs are usually kept in cheetah conversations and have daily interaction with humans. Many a time, they end up acting like kittens. They tame very easily when they have continuous interaction with humans and I know that sometimes they move into peoples homes and are treated like cats! Ofcourse being wild, they are a little harder to take care of!
> 
> Now, you might think this is completely crazy! How is this possible? Well, it is quite common here! And how many times have you heard of animals turning on their owners in South Africa? There aren't that many, if there are any at all... Especially regarding Lions and Cheetahs... And even if you come across a few, there are probably a thousand more where nothing has happened for every one attack you hear of.... Besides, the few cases I've heard were from negligence at zoos, and not in homes...
> 
> While I am by no means saying anyone should try to make a pet of a wild cat, it is possible...
> 
> Anyway, that's just my fifty cents worth lol. I think i's easier for me to wrap my head around being from a country where animals and humans have sometimes found a way to co-exist in harmony.... Thanks for the info on the STO feeding!


Hm I guess I can see how that is very different' They dotypically keep them in cages here when people do keep them.

It just sounds so bizzare to me. I live in a big city where there is really no open space at all so it's hard for me to picture. Thanks for sharing all the information


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## moey

Ceopet, South Africa is so funny... There are a lot of places where it's complete wilderness, and thirty to forty minutes away it's a complete city... South Africa is so weird. Such a juxtaposition. We are used to seeing such odd things that we find normal... Most of our holiday resorts have monkeys and baboons that live in the area and steal food lol. Not just one. Like, hundreds... but it's not like what some people still think... Some people think we all live in the jungle in huts and we see Lions walking on the roads and stuff lol.

Neil, thank you! I don't know much (anything) about plants. It would be easier if you gave me types of plants to look out for... Maybe you can help... I want a plant that doesn't grow fast, it must fit in my tank so it should be about 2.5 feet tall... I want it for my STO to climb on instead of fake branches so the plant must be strong enough to hold its weight. and it should be pretty too lol.


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## moey

I'm thinking of getting one of these

http://www.woolworths.co.za/store/cat?Ntt=bonsai&Dy=1&Nty=1&_requestid=5095516

I'm not sure of anything abot them except the store I've seen them at... But they are small... I'll need something larger


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## Draenog

I'd love to go to South-Africa. It must be beautiful. Also the language sounds funny to me since I can understand most of it (it's basically Dutch) but they have some funny words 

If I find a good plant I'll post it here


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## moey

We actually have eleven official languages... The one you're referring to is called Afrikaans. It's basically a mixture of many languages like Arabic, Dutch, German, English, etc... And because we learn it as our second language in school, I can pretty much kind of make sense of a few languages! Thanks for all your help! I would've probably been so lost without it!


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## Draenog

I know.  It's a daughter language of Dutch, the vocabulary is 90 to 95% of Dutch origin and the rest is a mix of several languages. Hence the reason why it's so easy to understand for us. It's weird though, because understanding Dutch is harder for South Africans. 
There are dialects in my own country that differ more from the standard Dutch language than Afrikaans does. It used to be a Dutch dialect. 

And you're welcome!


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## ceopet

Eleven! WOW! 

Sounds like a very interesting place to live


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## moey

Hey, Neil. Just exploring my options but what would be the best natural diet to feed gliders? I might get a pair...


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## moey

Guys, I need your help. I have got an enclosure built (60cm x 60cm x 120cm). It can fit two gliders or an STO comfortably. However, I am finding it hard to decide... So guys, from personal opinion, try to sway me in favour of a pet..

Here are my pros and cons for a sugar glider in my opinion

Pros:
They bond very closely
They are adorable

Cons:
Expensive
Smelly. Cleaning out every second day.
Diet takes a lot of time every single day

Here are my pros and cons for an STO in my opinion:

Pros:
Cheap
Easy to clean (changing bedding once a week and full wash omnthly)
Diet is easier
Can be litter trained

Cons:
They don't bond as closely as sugar gliders
Can't keep more than one even in such a big enclosure

My heart is so torn!


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## ceopet

I thought you were all decided for one! 

If you think the gliders would take too much time your best bet would be for an STO I think  Also keep in mind that gliders can be very noisey too, where I think STO's are pretty quiet. That is also something to consider. 

Also Gliders are not Potty trainable AT ALL. There are ways to miniumize getting pottied on by them (you handle them in such a way that it makes them go while holding a towel or something under them) it will still happen. And remember you will always have to have them in at least pairs. Which can be trickier if you are more used to solitary creatures. (like Hedgies)


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## moey

I thought I wanted an STO, and at the time it seemed like a good compromise to gliders. Smaller, cleaner, less noise, easier upkeep, but they are not as social as gliders. My biggest issue was the daily vegetable/fruit chopping for a glider, but STOs need that too.

I've spoken to more people in my country, and it seems that Gliders are easier to take care of than I originally thought. Essentially, I want a pet I can come home to after a long day and play with while I do my work. 

I think the amount of work that gets put into gliders is extremely exaggerated considering that lower maintenance pets (such as STOs) still need the same amount of work.. For example, daily cleaning of poo, daily fruits and veg and STOs, washing the enclosure out once a month, they can live off cat food but won't thrive because they need certain meal prep, both can't be litter trained outside of their cage (STOs only poo in one place in their cage, but not while playing out of it), etc. While STOs are little less maintenance, I just think if I'm going to put that much work into a pet, it should be Sugar Gliders because they are my first option pets. When I list my personal pros and cons, they have the same amount of work and monthly cost. To me, Sugar Gliders will be more rewarding.

However, I have decided to hold off on buying a pet by impulse. I'm giving it a month or two before I decide... Then I will probably get Sugar Gliders. I think they are the right fit for me. Essentially, their upkeep takes fifteen minutes daily but their social nature easily triumphs that for me. While STOs are great, they just aren't sugar gliders... 

So i think that is my decision right now. I'll be getting a pair of Gliders soon!


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## ceopet

AH that's cool I didn't know they were your first choice.


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## Tongue_Flicker

I agree. You know before i started out keeping exotic pets a decade ago, my original plan was to get a couple of gliders and a tortoise. After watching that wretched (am i allowed to say this?lol) youtube video about why you should not get a sugar glider i followed suit and did not get the gliders and the tortoise. So instead, in the following years i ended up (originally) with 42 snakes (now 34), 21 lizards (now 17), 80 scorpions (now 78), 7 adult tarantulas, a turtle, a betta, a ****atiel, 2 newts, a tree frog, lots of roaches, beetles, millipedes, snails, 2 monster hermit crabs, a palm civet (my sister took it in after), some crows and some scops owl.

So i say, go with your 1st interest and stick with it or else you'll end up like me hahahahaha


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## ceopet

While you are thinkiing about what you want for your next pet or pets you might want to consider rats  they are fairly low maitence and highly intelligent and VERY VERY social. My rats know tricks and come to me when the are called.

Biggest downside to them is that they don't live long 2 to 3 years is average  They also are prone to URI's and tumors.


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## Tongue_Flicker

ceopet said:


> While you are thinkiing about what you want for your next pet or pets you might want to consider rats  they are fairly low maitence and highly intelligent and VERY VERY social. My rats know tricks and come to me when the are called.
> 
> Biggest downside to them is that they don't live long 2 to 3 years is average  They also are prone to URI's and tumors.


This is something that i was giving some thoughts on. Hey ceopet, you don't happen to be a member in tropical fish forums are you? Lol.. There's a topic there concerning rats and they said the exact same things that you've said


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## ceopet

Haha no I am not lol


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## Tongue_Flicker

Haha just making sure


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## hlsiefken

We had a STO and he was awesome! Not very tame as when he would crawl up my arm he would launch himself off of me and hit the ground running! He did that one time and after half and hour of trying to catch him in our animal room, I started only letting him come hop in my hand with my hand in his tank.

He actually just up and died! I have no idea what happened.. Walked in one day and he was laying out in his cage dead. I'm still pretty sad a about it and my 4yo son cried when I told him. 

We actually got him last year instead of a hedgie (I had started researching and looking for breeders) when one of my friends that I met through the reptile community here bought a breeding pair and had babies.. My hubby was there picking up feeders and saw them as tiny pinkies and came home and said we could get one if I wanted! I have no idea about the lineage of his parents and I've also had rats as pets die from the same friend and while he does seem to take pretty good care of his animals he feeds them all crap! He also has had 3 litters of STOs from the same female since last summer.. Our guy was from the first one.

He was so fun to watch, loved running on his wheel which got just as nasty as I know Hedgies do, and LOVED taking treats from me- mostly live insects that I have with tongs because he was a little saucy.. He also made the cutest burrow in the tree shaped hide I gave him. I put fleece strips in his cage and he wove those and the shredded paper all through it to where when I would pick up his hide to look for him at night, it would stay intact. 

We may get another one sometime if I feel like we can handle it on top of the critters we have and the hedgie we are getting this coming weekend. 

Also, rats make phenomenal pets! We have a trio of boys (because you have to have at least 2), and they are all super sweet. We've had the since they were tiny babies and do great with my kids and we have one that gives kisses all day long, one that loves to curl up and cuddle on you and one that is super adventerous! I enjoy them so much that I've said that we will probably always have rats for several years to come!

We also have a chameleon (Jackaon's) and I love him but most of them do not care to be handled. They take a lot of specialized care, but it's not bad once you get used to it!


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